-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
Paul Ryan, Republican nominee for Vice President, said he believes that states should have the right to determine if prayer in public schools is allowed. In response to a question from a campaign volunteer, Ryan said that’s “a constitutional issue of the states.” Prayer in public schools is a hot-button issue for religious conservatives. Was Ryan simply pandering to the Republican base or does he truly not support the separation of church and state?
While any student can silently pray during school, that’s not the kind of prayer that the religious right is talking about. They want the kind of prayer that is foisted upon young minds by school authority figures. Those in the classroom are a captive audience, compelled by law to attend.
In the case of Engel v. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court found that a New York state law, directing a School District’s principal to cause a prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher, was “wholly inconsistent with the Establishment Clause.” The Court noted that the First Amendment was “made applicable to the State of New York by the Fourteenth Amendment of the said Constitution.”
Ryan goes on to say that the decision to say a prayer is the “moral responsibility of parents.” However, a government sponsored prayer violates the very parental responsibility he claims to support. The decision not to say a prayer is also the responsibility of parents. A child should neither be pressured to pray nor pressured not to pray. Religious parents would scream bloody murder if their child was pressured not to pray, but these same parents have no qualms when pressuring other children to pray.
Government sponsored prayer in public schools is a blatant attempt to refresh and reinforce religious beliefs of the children of religious parents and indoctrinate the children of parents who have different beliefs.
H/T: Steve M., New York Times, Americans United.
Blouise, later in that same psalm, you can read:
May my lips be free from speaking falsehood, and to my enemies, may I be as silent as the dust…
It is now incorporated in a Saturday afternoon Amidah (“a thoughtful meditative prayer, optional”) in the “Sim Shalom” prayer book for reformed Jews at the Sabbath Service. I always thought the line “to my enemies, may I be silent as the dust” was a good thought, especially for people who must become litigants in this insane court system, against their will.
I went to school before you did.
idealist707 1, September 8, 2012 at 12:03 pm
We were “allowed” to say the pledge of allegiance. Don’t know how many became terrorists.
Don’t know where I learned the Lord’s Prayer. It must have been some girl who taught me when she was on top and wanted me to hold off.
Some news, a guy said he was a “red diaper” baby. Anyone know what that means?
When you are on your knees praying, it is a lot easier to fart. All who agree say Amen. The neys can get on their knees and abstain, if they can.
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In elementary school, every morning you crossed you heart and said the pledge of allegiance. Little kids. I didn’t have a problem with it, but do you know what happened to the ones who refused? Recess time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_diaper_baby
This isn’t red diaper territory.
bettykath 1, September 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Matt, apples and oranges. Church bells belong to the church. They can ring them anytime the noise codes rules allow. The city loud speakers belong to the government which can’t promote one religion over another.
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What if the Muslims have their own loud speakers? Can they make they same argument?
We were “allowed” to say the pledge of allegiance. Don’t know how many became terrorists.
Don’t know where I learned the Lord’s Prayer. It must have been some girl who taught me when she was on top and wanted me to hold off.
Some news, a guy said he was a “red diaper” baby. Anyone know what that means?
When you are on your knees praying, it is a lot easier to fart. All who agree say Amen. The neys can get on their knees and abstain, if they can.
Matt, apples and oranges. Church bells belong to the church. They can ring them anytime the noise codes rules allow. The city loud speakers belong to the government which can’t promote one religion over another.
There was a case in Detroit a few years ago when the Muslim population wanted to call to prayer over the city loud speakers. It wasn’t allowed.
In all fairness, don’t ring the church bells either. It’s supposed to be a democracy.
I wish the Republican Party would just simply walk away from the abortion issue, stop pandering to the pro-religion cause, and become the party to clean up the environment. I feel if they accepted these three causes they would do much better in the elections.
Romney’s dog says a prayer very day that he will not be put in the crate and strapped to the top of the station wagon and driven cross country to the Great State of Utah where Mormonism flourishes. We need Dog Rights in our state and federal constitution. Puke on The Romani Willard and The Big Eared Mick.
Ryan is pandering.
BTW, the following is a passage my entire 8th grade, public school class repeated every morning in homeroom:
“May the words of my mouth, and the meditations of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Amen” (Psalm 19:14)
I can still rattle it off without a thought
Hey what’s this with the losing ticket choosing a vice pres candidate who looks like a cartoon character, anyway? Remember Lieberman (the Grinch) — and now Ryan (Eddie Munster). Who thinks of these things?
rafflaw 1, September 8, 2012 at 9:55 am
Well said David. Wasn’t Slavery a States issue as well??
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Yes. The southern states, led by South Carolina, seceded b/c the northern states were invoking states’ rights in not returning runaway human “property” to their owners in the south. btw, this was only reason the states seceded. The SC declaration of secession is available on the web.
Prayer was done in my elementary classroom. I’m not sure if my classmates thought I was too stupid to learn the prayer or to contrary to say it. In any case, it was just one more thing that alienated me from my classmates.
Reopening the “prayer in the schools” issue is going to be a huge waste of the taxpayers’ money, and the Dems would be well advised to advertise that right NOW with some ads designed by the GEICO gecko.
First off, every state legislature will have to deal with it. $$$
Then legislatures that pass prayer in the school will get a bid from the
Transcendental Meditation folks to put in TM as well. More $$$
Then WHICH PRAYER will take up a few of the States’ Supreme Courts for a few years. Remember the “our father”? Some of us were pretty surprised to find out that it was just a translation of the Roman Catholic “Pater Noster” and there were plenty of Protestants who thought that should be replaced and of course, the Jewish Lobby (remember the most powerful lobby in the world?) would weigh in for the vee-ah-havtah in a quick minute, think of how many Philadelphia Lawyers that would have to pay for! The Muslims will want FIVE prayers per day and little carpets.
And then of course you have some organizations come in to change the words. “Our mother who art in Heaven, thy sacred-goddessness gave birth to all of us, even those of us who stubbornly refuse to drop their heads in awe and who pee standing up,”
And then the states will have to have commissions go back to the original and retranslate…imagine…maybe it really DID SAY:
Our Father who art in Heaven,
Halloween thy name.
Thy King Kong, thy will be done,
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our tresspassors
as we forgive those who tresspass against us.
And lead us not into Penn Station,
but deliver us from evil,
for thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory,
Forever,
Amen.
That’s what the kids said every morning when I went to school. And a lot of them turned out pretty damn near as good as me!
Raff,
If I recall peer pressure is or was a factor in allowing prayer in school….. Just call me one of those folks that’s doesn’t do it just because others do it…..
Raff also the EC only apples to those states in insurrection…… It’s perfectly legal in I think deleware……..according to the states Constitution……
Good article David….
BTW – Jeff. We lived in Floriduh (Brevard County – I was a rocket scientist) for a few years and I can tell you there is no way on earth they should be allowed to handle their own schools. They, along with the contingent of backward third-world wannabe states are a drag on our nation because they fail to produce well educated citizens and have demonstrated a lack of concern for decades.
When we moved (in large part because of the crappy education I didn’t want my kids to suffer through) Florida had the lowest graduation rate in the country, the lowest rate of HS grads continuing on to any higher education and 50% of all Florida HS grads, public and private, needed remedial English and Math classes in college.
In the face of threats to the future of the nation like this it would be criminal for the nation not to act. Its sad that we have to pay to try to drag these handful of states into the 20th Century but the alternative would be more expensive.
Poor Pauly, someone should read him the Constitution of the United States.
most aspects of education would probably be better handled by the State instead of the Federal government.
However the states are still beholden to the constitution which precludes the recognition of one religion over another. So unless they plan on having 195,853,788,001,821 different prayers for every possible belief and a moment of silence for atheist than it is a moot point on whether prayers in school are handled by the feds or the state.
Does Paul Ryan understand he has been set up to take all the blame?
Well said David. Wasn’t Slavery a States issue as well??
“Government sponsored prayer in public schools is a blatant attempt to refresh and reinforce religious beliefs of the children of religious parents and indoctrinate the children of parents who have different beliefs.”
Indeed.
Blasphemy prosecutions by the state would not be too far behind.
Ryan, STFU!!! And Please. stick your head back under the Pope’s dress.