This video shows a clearly obnoxious and possibly unstable individual who hounds court security with a series of nonsensical statements about not being a person. The court staff shows considerable restraint and professionalism until the man is tasered for trying to get into a court area with a camera.
In the view, the man insists “I don’t have a last name. I don’t have a first name either. I got a name, my name is Robert. You can call me Robert.” He then draws a nonsensical distinction in saying “I’m not a person. You deal here with persons, of which I am not. I’m a man.” When he denies being a citizen of the United States, but admits to being a citizen of Idaho, he then refuses to produce his license on the grounds that “My person does [have one]. I don’t. And I don’t wish to create joinder with you.” He was soon joined with a taser.
I am highly sympathetic to the court security in such a situation and I do not contest the right to keep out cameras. However, I wonder why a taser was used rather than simply restraining the man and possibly arresting him. Once again, the man is clearly rude and seems a bit off. However, we have previously discussed how tasers have become the first response in such situation and used almost casually. This man was clearly in the wrong in trying to get in despite the warning. However, he took one step and was tasered by the officer. These tasers can be deadly in some circumstances and are similar in the legal level of force to the use of a police baton. Where officers (of which there were at least four here) once physically restrained such individuals, they often now use tasers.
What do you think?
OS,
Thanks fro giving the figures on Tssers: ca 50,000 volts at 2.1 milliamperes.
As an old radio op from the HV days, we knew that 200 milliamps would kill. 90 volts is considered the safe limit. Arm to arm, passing the heart was of course most dangerous. I once forgot the general rule to keep one hand in your pocket and took 1100 volts DC hand to hand.
Higher voltage in radio equipment generally generates high eoough current to seize up/stop the heart, and if contact is broken, then the healthy heart will resume.
That Tasers are currrent limited was good to know.
Difficult to explain why anyone should die from that current level. Possibly defective equipment.
Or perhaps Kraaken can confirm that the heart is more sensitive that my rule of thumb info would indicate, thus making the amperage factor irrelevant. Afterall, the nerve impulse levels and isolation between nerve thread in the sinus and AV area is only microvolts.
Warning: Don’t sneeze too hard! Just joking!?
Kraaken contributed:
I will have to agree to disagree with you on the use of Tasers, but rational people CAN disagree with respect for both opinions!
Yes, a welcome exchange of ideas. No worries about the italics, for some reason when I am at my home computer the fonts on this website change several times, ending up in the Wing Dings font; which forces me to hit <F5> to refresh the screen.
First Taser International warn that that their product should be considered lethal force.
Second , Sovereign citizen is an oxymoron and only a fool would refer to themselves as one.
you might as well call yourself the master slave.
Taserdog.
How many deaths or injuries would have occurred in that twelve year period had the Taser not been available and the officers were forced to resort to firearms instead? Argument is a logical fallacy. I am too tired to get into picking it apart, and am about to hit the sack–I have been up since five this morning and am about used up. At any rate, you assume that every death was unjustified and would not have happened if the Taser had not been used. That is simply not so. Almost all Taser deaths appear to have occurred because the device was used excessively or inappropriately. There is no excuse for that but is an issue to be corrected with proper training and monitoring Taser use within the department.
Given a choice between a Taser and a Glock, I think most suspects would prefer to be shot with a Taser unless they are trying to commit suicide by cop.
Google: Taser and deaths. One blog has 181 deaths since the year 2001. That is one hundred eighty one dead people who were assaulted with deadly force by a taser gun. It is deadly force.
Go taser your moms.
Part of the problem with the reputation of the Taser is that there have been too many instances where they were used indiscriminately and inappropriately. Those have been documented and reported ad nauseum. Some officers pull them out and use them as a first resort rather than next to last resort–a firearm is the last resort. Properly used and with good judgement, the Taser is just another tool to keep both officer and bystanders safe when a suspect or perpetrator becomes violent or physically threatening and talking does not work. Pepper spray is sometimes effective but if pepper spray or Mace is used indoors, overspray and backspray often gets on bystanders and the officer as well. Also, spray devices do not work on some mentally ill persons–I have seen a manic schizophrenic simply shake Mace off. All it did was make him angrier and more dangerous than he was before being sprayed.
As for the hyperbole about 50,000 volts, it is true they have that much voltage, but it is the amperage that kills, not voltage. Voltage can be considered a kind of pressure, while amperage is volume. The Taser works on very high voltage, but amperage is measured in milliamps. 2.1 mA
(0.0021 Amps) to be exact. A comparison might be a garden hose versus a fire hose. Both work on about 60 pounds per square inch of pressure, but the stream from a four inch fire hose will hurt you while the garden hose is uncomfortable but will not hurt you. The difference is volume per unit of time.
An auto battery is only twelve volts, but the one in my car has 750 Amps to crank the engine. That is a lot of amperage and has to be respected. Your house electric current is about 115 volts at 20 Amps, and can kill instantly. Most houses are wired to handle up to 100 Amps per line safely. 0.0021 Amps will sting, but should not kill except under the most extraordinary circumstance, or if grossly overused.
So, the whole idea of the Taser is to incapacitate a violent person long enough to get handcuffs on them. Any more that that is abusing the Taser. Any time you hear of an instance of a Taser being overused, you need to look at the training protocol of that department. Either you have poor training or a rogue officer–or both.
Darren, I have no idea why my computer started writing in itallics. Sorry!
Thank you, Darren. I DO understand your point.
>”Consider this, if the Taser, the nightstick, the kubaton, pepper spray and punches and kicks were defined to be deadly weapons no LEO could use them to defend themselves unless deadly force was considered to be reasonable in a given situation.” “…no LEO could use them to defend themselves unless deadly force was considered to be reasonable in a given situation Moreover, nobody else would be able to use these items to defend themselves or another person unless there was an imminent threat of great bodily injury or death to the potential victim.” < That should be the ONLY time those things are used. However, I do bow to your knowledge of LEO procedures, and I do realise that there are situations that arise 'out there'. I worked in the County Hospital ER for a number of years, and I became friends with a number of LEOs who regularly brought prisoners in for treatment, so I am not completely unfeeling (I agree it sounds that way from my writings) toward LEOs. I will have to agree to disagree with you on the use of Tasers, but rational people CAN disagree with respect for both opinions!
Kraaken
While I agree with you that people can die from Taser use it is not considered a deadly weapon in the legal sense. If in that definition where something can cause a death, nearly any object can cause death if used with the intent to cause death and if it can be articulated it can through actual use.
The reason for this is as follows. Firearms are by definition deadly weapons. Fists and feet are not considered deadly weapons, yet fists and feet can cause death. A police nightstick can be a deadly weapon but is not considered one in the ordinary legal sense.
Consider this, if the Taser, the nightstick, the kubaton, pepper spray and punches and kicks were defined to be deadly weapons no LEO could use them to defend themselves unless deadly force was considered to be reasonable in a given situation. Moreover, nobody else would be able to use these items to defend themselves or another person unless there was an imminent threat of great bodily injury or death to the potential victim.
There are circumstances where the use of a Taser is not considered to be a low level use of force. The training is generally is (thought it might be different as my last refresher course was 2 years ago) not to tase anyone who appears to be over 60 years old unless highly threatening circumstances require it.
We had an appeals court ruling last year I think it was here were a person using a hard surface such as a concrete floor or such could be considered to have committed a felony assault (concrete floor as a weapon) due to the suspect continually beating a person’s head to the ground. So I can see your point as to an ordinarily non lethal object becoming a weapon or a deadly weapon.
The alternative to not using a Taser means that people can more often get hurt by having to use other means. An officer who I know about 24 years ago was attacked by a man who tried to hit him with a club. The officer took out a night stick and struck the suspect, shattering every metacarpal bone in his right hand. The pain was so intense the suspect fainted from the shock. I would suspect he had to undergo surgery to repair his hand.
Now given this level of trauma caused by the night stick it could be argued that (had it been available at the time) this type of injury could have been easily prevented by lighting the suspect up with a Taser. I know this is just one example but it is illustrative of the point.
So to respect your views on the Taser, the medical issues are ones to consider. I don’t know anything else that would work better than a Taser would, if one could be found without any of the medical issues, I would have no objection to using it.
Kraaken, One more point to add to your excellent post – cardiac problems are hidden, much too frequently from the person who has them, but they are also obviously hidden from anyone wielding a taser.
Here is some public information on the Sovereign Citizen movement.
Source: Wikipedia
Darren Smith: >”You are incorrect in stating a Taser is a deadly weapon. It is not.”<
Darren, a Taser can indeed be a l lethal weapon. There have been numerous cases brought where a Taser has killed someone. As a CCU/ER nurse, I know that in people with certain arrhythmias (NOT as uncommon as one would think), an application of current at the strengths of most Tasers can cause a fatal arrhymia, or just completely 'short-circuit' the sinus and/or the AV nodes causing death. There are several cases of just that sort here in Maricopa County at present. I would say the greatest reason that the lawsuits filed against the government are won by the government are because in MOST people, the serge will knock the person down. In a person with a cardiac defect, however, it CAN and HAS killed, therefore making it a 'deadly weapon'. Because the Taser is sold to police as 'non-lethal', and because people see 'demonstrations' on volunteers who are generally in perfect health with no cardiac problems. LEOs tell the Court what it wants to hear, namley that there is no danger to the person Tased. Juries tend to believe that, and THAT is the reason why people say Tasers are non-lethal.
Pretty funny when ol’ happy b*ll-buster Nick finds it objectionable that commenters are “unequivocal” in response to an always thoughtful and temperate assessment rendered by Nick – he who posesses the only valid point of view. All others are only deserving of his ridicule which he bestows with the most winning charm and he is most profoundly SHOCKED when piled upon.
Matt, The game is put up or shut up.
mkahill 1, September 18, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Is this a game?
nick spinelli, Sure tough guy. Sooth your aching ego with fantasies of ignorance. You dig in the dirt and somebody pays you to do it. You are not law enforcement. And back up your words, tough guy, “I know you had your feelings hurt and left for awhile”. Come on PI, support your statement the way you wanted bettykath to support hers. Don’t want to get the reputation as the blog’s hypocrite.
OS, Amen!
nick, et al,
Never underestimate the dangerousness of someone who is both nuts and stupid. We had a female deputy sheriff shot in the face at close range by a guy with a deer rifle not long ago. She was not killed, but that is an undivided miracle. Another officer killed the shooter before he could get off another shot at her. Those people live in an alternate reality.
bettykath, Others seem more offended than you about what I said to you. We’re simply going to have to disagree on this courtroom incident, but I respect you not playing the victim card. You’re tough enough to stand on your own. Ciao!