We previously discussed the exodus from France of top earners after the imposition of a confiscatory 75% tax rate. Now England is facing the same shift, according to a new report. More than 16,000 people declared an annual income of more than £1 million during 2009-10. That number fell to just 6,000 this year. This appears to be a combination of people leaving Britain and concerted efforts to avoid income.
We continue to disagree on this blog on tax policy. I opposed the moves in France and England as economically unwise. I also oppose aspects of the Obama plan, though I agree with the need to increase revenue. I believe both Obama and Congress have been incredibly reckless with their budgets and continue to spend wildly without any sense of priority in spending.
Cities like New York also report declines in top earner following heavy tax bills.
George Osborne, the Chancellor, announced this year that the 50p top rate will be reduced to 45p from next April.
Source: Telegraph
Zombie,
>just because 99 people out of 100 want something doesnt make it right or good.
Zombie gets moral revelations from the Platonic Form of Society which transcends mere individuals.
@Bron: The founders explicitly believed in taxes to support the government; at the time they believed that could be done with tariffs and other such taxes. Notice their rhetoric was qualified, “No Taxation Without Representation” doesn’t mean they did not believe in taxes, it means they thought taxation entitled the taxed to representation in government.
You are wrong about what the founders believed, the founders believed as I do, that the government must be funded by taxation of some sort, no matter what you may call it, the government needs revenue. Show some proof that there was any general consensus by the founders that individual labor should not be taxed, or stop lying about what the founders believed.
@Bron: Most tax money goes to other people, it does not go to roads, bridges, etc.
Are you taking into account the expenditures for military, police, courts and government administration employees, like the people in the DMV?
Because if you are counting them amongst the “other people” then you are being purposely misleading; they are not on welfare, they are doing jobs. It takes people to serve people.
As far as SS and Medicare, that tax money goes to other people because corporations cannot be trusted, by written contract or by heartfelt promises, to provide for a retirement or pension, the Great Depression sealed the deal on that situation FOREVER. Also, that experience showed us that people consistently sacrificed their long term interests for their immediate interests, which we all do. Staying alive today always trumps comfort thirty years from now.
But at retirement, left with nothing, the elderly became a financial burden to the rest of us, because unlike the psychopaths the vast majority of us could not stand by while the elderly, with their greatly diminished productivity, became homeless, suffered illnesses they could not afford to treat, and starved. Especially the many robbed of their pensions and savings by the bankruptcy of companies they worked for their entire lives, and the collapse of banks and investments they thought were “safe.”
It is impossible to correct that problem within the free market system, because every entity within the free market system can fail and leave debts unpaid and promises unfulfilled.
The problem of elderly poverty can only be corrected by government; and what the founders really believed was that outside of a few human Right guarantees, people should rule themselves by majority vote, and the minority was compelled to abide by such decisions.
It is not only the only way to provide that care, it is the best way. The government will not go bankrupt, it operates at cost alone and takes no portion of the taxes as private profit, and by every objective measure operates as efficiently (or better) than for-profit agencies. The administrative overhead of Medicare is under 5% of their premiums, the administrative overhead of for-profit medical insurance companies is over five times as high, 25% and over 30% for some (and, btw, includes those six and seven figure salaries, bonuses, perks and offices, and an army of lawyers working to deny benefits to people entitled to them; because the for-profit insurance company is inherently adversarial to all claims, while Medicare is not).
Bron says: That is what all progressive arguments boil down to, calling the other person either stupid or racist. you just cannot help yourselves.
This from the guy that says those of us that disagree with him are just not smart enough to embrace individual freedom (@ 12/20 8:02 AM).
Well, I don’t know why you fail to understand the most basic logic, but stupidity might explain that. Your pining for people to “take responsibility” or embrace your version of “individual liberty” is just a stubborn denial of reality; that isn’t going to happen, EVER. It did not happen before, it will not happen in the future, humans do not work that way. Period. You might as well be wishing for Santa to fix it.
There is a society, Bron, it is not just individuals, just like your computer is not just a random collection of atoms. A society is a collection of individuals organized with predictable mutual obligations and dependencies, just like a processor is a collection of atoms organized and bound to accomplish specific functions in specific amounts of time.
There are no rights without a society, it is the collective obligation to enforce rights (and punish transgressions of rights) that makes a “right” mean anything. Just like a contract is worthless if there is no court to enforce it or police to compel the terms be met.
Taxes that go to those that need it are there because our society, after decades of experience after the Industrial Revolution (which our founding fathers did not anticipate) recognized a chronic failure of the free market and chose that way to correct it, and we are bound by our obligations to society to obey that decision until society decides to change it.
Zombie,
>the less fortunate
In Zombieland, nobody makes a choice to reason or evade. Neurons cause our bodies to flop this way or that. The Zombies are grateful to be relieved of the moral responsibility of choosing to reason or evade. Of course, they’re Zombies so there is a rather high price…
tony c:
before, what was it 1913, there was no individual income tax. So are you saying the founders were morons? They did not believe in a tax on individual labor either.
Most tax money goes to other people, it does not go to roads, bridges, etc.
That is what all progressive arguments boil down to, calling the other person either stupid or racist. you just cannot help yourselves.
@Bron: You do not advocate for “individual rights,” you advocate for the repeal of regulations that protect people from tyrants and oppression.
And the personal income tax is what we agree to pay so all citizens will be protected from tyrants and oppression, that is the definition of Rights. A system without taxes guarantees nothing except to the rich, which are usually the tyrants from whom we need to be protected.
Only an utter moron thinks of taxes as theft, taxes are fees and insurance, fees for the use and maintenance of the infrastructure paid for by generations of people before you, and insurance that entitles you to reasonably good protection by the police, courts and military. You can complain they are too high, or the money is used inefficiently, or there is too much corruption, but calling all taxes “theft” is just plain stupidity.
tony c:
so advocating for individual rights is advocating for tyranny? how does that work? you are the only person talking about oppressing people. I am in no position to oppress anyone nor do I have any desire.
only progressive ideas such as the personal income tax and the federal reserve steal their time and money. working themselves to death to pay all of the taxes and to keep up with the loss of buying power takes their lives and health.
@Bron: To anticipate your answer, it is not advocating for “freedom” if what you want is the “freedom” to oppress people, the freedom to enslave people, the freedom to trick people or the freedom to exploit their desperation. That is not advocating for “freedom,” it is advocating for brutalizing the less fortunate to steal their time, their money, their health, and their lives.
@Bron: just because 99 people out of 100 want something doesnt make it right or good.
Then you are a totalitarian, because you (as the 1 out of a 100 that doesn’t want regulation) would impose your will on the 99. Correct?
What makes your judgment of what is “right” and “good” for everybody else superior to their own judgment? If you believe you are in the 1% that is right and everybody else is in the 99% that is wrong, AND you advocate (as you do) for ignoring them and imposing your “right” and “good” system upon them regardless of their wishes, then you are a totalitarian; you are advocating for tyranny of your ideas, you are advocating for dictatorship.
tony c:
just because 99 people out of 100 want something doesnt make it right or good.
were you honest in your business dealings? I would say most business owners are, the customer takes care of those who arent.
most human predators dont last long due to the rule of law and the market place. madoff made out because people thought the SEC was doing its job. had there been no SEC, people would have been more cautious.
gbk:
does the human race have a good track record of individual freedom?
and it is exactly what I meant, human beings have a bad track record of living and let live.
so we cant judge tyrants? dont want to hurt their feelings?
TONY C:
what does that even mean?
@Bron: Isn’t that true? No matter how many people may clamor for some regulation of a business they believe is harming them, if it is not absolutely 100% of everybody, including the owners of the very business they are complaining about, then you believe that 99.99999% majority should be ignored. Correct?
Isn’t that the desire for a totalitarian rule by you?
Bron,
“at the root it is all the same.
all are totalitarian in some form or other.”
What a pathetic response. Your mopping up of and superficially assigning value with one word reeks of a judgmentalism you claim not to have, when really you just think the whole world is populated by fools — except the ones that agree with you.
You even contradict yourself directly above:
“Individual freedom doesnt have a very good track record in regard to the human race.”
Of course, I’m sure you’ll claim that’s not what you meant, that it’s out of context or some other blustery defense, but it is what you wrote. So why do you harp on your “individual freedom” panacea so much if, in your words, “[it] doesnt have a very good track record in regard to the human race.”
And you blithely say most people aren’t smart enough to see the world through your eyes, or that they don’t have enough self-confidence to embrace your astigmatic vision. What a joke, thanks for the laughs.
@Bron: So is your philosophy, which you would impose upon others whether they like it or not.
gbk:
at the root it is all the same.
all are totalitarian in some form or other.
@Polly: I evade nothing except your foolishness. No cracker for you.
gbk
>you makeup meanings to words to suit your purpose
Meaning is the product of mind focused onto reality, not a revelation or a public opinion poll for miserable creatures with no personal purposes.
Bron,
“And when I say yours I mean the liberal/Evangelical/neocon philosophy.”
What philosophy is this, Bron? A catch-all? I’ve never heard of it.
“We just speak a totally different language and there is no mechanism for translation.”
This is certainly true. That’s what happens when you makeup meanings to words to suit your purpose, sort of like, “liberal/Evangelical/neocon philosophy.”
@Bron: they dont know what they are missing out on.
No, you do not know what YOU are missing out on, and that is a good thing, really, because what you are missing out on is a life of miserable subjugation and rule by strong men and cabals that would exploit you ruthlessly.
Bron says: Individual freedom doesn’t have a very good track record in regard to the human race.
And yet, since the post-Depression new Deal, in 80 years the USA has built the greatest economic powerhouse the world has ever seen. In fact we have generated so much money that the money itself has become a problem by becoming a force for corruption; but we will fix that eventually and move on.
The proof is in the pudding, Bron. Call it totalitarianism, call us insecure cowards, we don’t care. Insults mean nothing, results mean everything. The vast majority of us live in comfort, our streets are reasonably safe, our houses are reasonably safe, our retirement is reasonably safe, our work places are reasonably safe, we have reasonable recourse if somebody (like a boss) tries to oppress us and the law (as opposed to a lawsuit) is on our side there.
There are some problems with freedoms, the government oversteps at times and it seems it takes decades to walk back those oversteps, but the vast majority of us would still rather live and work here than in the far more “free market” English speaking India. Trust me, I have been there (shudder).
We LIKE almost all of those business regulations you complain about, because the reality is that employers are aggressive jerks that would oppress us if they could and we have no workable recourse if they all do that, that is why we demanded those regulations you complain about.
It is you guys that abdicate reason, you are just like the religionists, you think you have an answer and you work to justify it. You don’t care what really happened or what is really happening; if it doesn’t fit your preconceived notion of how it should be, you dismiss it. That is not “reason.” Reason is facing reality.
One of those realities is your delusion that YOU are smarter and more intelligent than the hundreds of millions of people in this country that embrace the current system, including a host of billionaires and an army of millionaires. I find it curious that you are so smart, so intelligent, and have readily admitted you are greedy for money, but cannot figure out how to join their ranks.
This system works, Bron, that is the fact. In one country after another, the more unregulated markets are the worse the plight of the workers. We haven’t abdicated reason, we have embraced reality: The greatest good for the greatest number is done by collectively (by law) restraining the greedy sociopaths and psychopaths that would strip us of all liberties if they could get away with it.
tony c:
I havent yet read any of Stephen’s replies to your post to me but I imagine he is laughing and saying yep, totalitarianism.
Maybe you dont understand what you are saying, I dont think you are a bad guy nor is most anyone on this site. I honestly think you mean well and want people to be healthy and happy and productive members of society.
We just speak a totally different language and there is no mechanism for translation. Nor is any compromise possible between the 2 philosophies, they cannot coexist. Unfortunately yours is winning. And when I say yours I mean the liberal/Evangelical/neocon philosophy. Which is all about totalitarianism in various forms and to various degrees. Or as Stephen might put it an abdication of reason.
Individual freedom doesnt have a very good track record in regard to the human race. I dont think most people are smart enough nor have enough self confidence to embrace it. It is such a pity too, they dont know what they are missing out on.
@Polly: No cracker, parrot.
Zombie,
>rule by strong men
Note the Marxist evasion of the life-and-death distinction between production and force. And the evasion of the strong men (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) needed for and attracted to the continuing increase in govt force.
>since the post-Depression new Deal, in 80 years the USA has built the greatest economic powerhouse the world has ever seen.
Just as this scientific fraud evades causes for coincidences in his study of man, he evades causes for coincidences in economics. He evades mind as cause in psychology and economics. Production is the application of mind to the problem of survival. And, since mind is volitional, it needs freedom from the initiation of force that Zombie slobbers for.
>In fact we have generated so much money that the money itself has become a problem by becoming a force for corruption;
Ie, the production of material wealth is evil, a view shared by religionists and New Leftists.
>Call it totalitarianism, call us insecure cowards, we don’t care. Insults mean nothing, results mean everything.
Hitler shares Zombies anti-intellectual Pragmatism. “The know-it-alls are the enemies of action….We approach the world only in strong emotion and action….Important is not what is right but what wins.” And how will Zombie’s arbitrary results occur except w/the strong men he denounces above?
Here is LG Tirela, a philosophical Nazi ideologist who applies Kant’s moral subjectivism: “The deed is all, the thought nothing!”
> if somebody (like a boss) tries to oppress us
Ie, those who produce wealth are oppressive and should be enslaved or destroyed by a non-oppressive, totalitarian dictatorship
>the far more “free market” English speaking India.
Note the virtually psychotic concern with this isolated moment here and now, with no memory of the past. Indian capitalism exists in a society which has been mystically other-worldy and thus poor for millenia. Since capitalism hasnt completely replaced that in a Pragmatist nano-second, Zombie condemns it.
>employers are aggressive jerks that would oppress us if they could
Notice the Marxist, anti-free, will group mind. But traditional racial, ethnic, national, etc. prejudices will drop the Marxism because tradition is anti-theory. Those traditional prejudices will then be encouraged by Zombie’s group mind.
And, again, Zombie condemns the most productive people, a condemnation that he wants politically enforced, an enforcement that will decrease production. Zombie doesnt care. He hates production (as distinct from the consumption of loot).
>if it doesn’t fit your preconceived notion of how it should be, you dismiss it. That is not “reason.” Reason is facing reality.
For Pragmatists (see above), reality is an unknowable chaos requiring short-range reasoning and action and a totalitarian govt to enforce this. This is the world of addicts, the insane, babies and primitive savages. This is what he means by “facing reality.”
> your delusion that YOU are smarter and more intelligent than the hundreds of millions of people in this country that embrace the current system, including a host of billionaires and an army of millionaires.
Lacking proof, he appeals to popularity and authority.
Further, markets are the product of the knowledge of many people producing for a market. Bureaucrats substitute their own tiny knowledge of production for that.
>This system works
For this isolated Pragmatist moment, for an arbitrary and short-range and constantly changing purpose. (Rand satirizes this in Atlas Shrugged) And what happened to our current economic depression that can be blamed on capitalism? If the system works, there is no problem.
the more unregulated markets are the worse the plight of the workers.
Kant’s destructive effect on our culture is the substitution of emotion for reason. Zombie does not have the slightest evidence for this. For almost all of man’s history, govt has controlled production and production was extremely low. Our present prosperity is the product of 300 yrs of (inconsistent) capitalism (minus the production that didnt occur because of govt). Note the eva sion of the Soviet Union, No. Korea, Cuba, East Germany, East Berlin, pre-capitalist India and China.
Zombie must believe that the independent mind is impossible and impractical or he would instantly go insane or kill himself.
>We haven’t abdicated reason, we have embraced reality: The greatest good for the greatest number
The Nazi mass murders were the greatest good for the greatest number. The least number? Irrelevant. Sacrifice is allegedly rational and realistic.
>the greedy sociopaths and psychopaths that would strip us of all liberties if they could get away with it.
Here Zombie projects his own anti-mind powerlust onto rationally productive people. In The Fountainhead, an Ayn Rand villain says, of the hero who he is framing for a crime and wants sent to jail, “He’ll take orders!” Zombie has the morally empty selflessness of a Nazi death camp guard guided, not by values, but by duty, sacrifice as an end in itself.