In Torrance, California, two women delivering newspapers were shot by LAPD officers looking for triple murder suspect Christopher Dorner. Maggie Carranza, 47, and her 71-year-old mother Emma Hernandez looked nothing like the African-American male suspect but police insisted that they were driving a Toyota Tundra pickup truck similar to Dorner’s truck.
They were in their truck when they were shot by LAPD officers guarding a high-ranking LAPD officer named in Dorner’s manifesto. Their attorney said that there were no warnings before the truck was peppered with bullets. Hernandez was shot in the back.
The officers said that they thought the women’s royal blue Toyota Tacoma matched Dorner’s dark-colored Nissan pickup truck. Of course, under any interpretation of Tennessee v. Garner, that would not constitute a justified basis to open fire.
In the meantime, there are growing calls to reopen the investigation linked to Dorner’s termination by the LAPD. Dorner was terminated on September 4, 2008 after the LAPD accused him of lying about a fellow officer kicking a mentally ill man. Dorner accused now Sergeant Teresa Evans of police brutality in kicking suspect Christopher Gettler in the face while he was handcuffed and lying on the ground. The LAPD internal review board accused Dorner of lying. What is curious about the case is that the father of the mentally ill man corroborated Dorner’s account and Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge David P. Yaffe who reviewed the case in 2010 examined the case a year later as part of an appeal filed by Dorner, said he was “uncertain whether the training officer kicked the suspect or not.” That handling of the case has concerned many who wondered whether Dorner was punished for breaking the code of silence. The LAPD insist he was given a full hearing and found guilty of lying.
LAPD says it will reopen the case to see if there is anything new in Dorner’s manifesto.
Of course, even if one were to accept that he was treated badly, it hardly justifies an alleged killing rampage. Yet, Dorner is developing a following of supporters.
Source: CBS
“I don’t have a problem with you. I just want to clear my name.” -Chris Dorner
Karen, Jim Reynolds Claim Chris Dorner Tied Them Up, Stole Their Car (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/karen-jim-reynolds-chris-dorner_n_2683160.html (with video)
I don’t see any excuse for trying to burn people alive.
I don’t see the LAPD as being professional in the least. They’re in CYA mode.
Hull makes the point that the identification is that of “a big African-American man”. No one actually identified the man as Dorner. As to his driver’s license being found at the scene, his wallet and id were found at the marina according to other reports. There is also legal paperwork filed by a Marshal that puts Dorner in Mexico. Hull’s article has a link to another where she writes about the two manifestos. (you have to go there to get the link)
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/02/a-good-cup-of-coffee-to-go-with-your.html
excerpt:
Ruth Hull
Activist Post
The morning of 2/12, a big African-American man in Big Bear stole a purple Nissan SUV, owned by Jay of Jay’s Tree Trimming Service. (Lt Foy, Fish and Wildlife thought this car belonged to two maids.) Around 12:45, while following two school buses, the vehicle passed a sheriff’s car and a Fish and Wildlife car. What is interesting is the difference in stories. Fish and Wildlife Public information officer Andrew Hughan, who was kind enough to draw a diagram of the action, had the suspect driving towards Big Bear, but Sacramento Fish and Wildlife’s Lieutenant Patrick Foy had him going down Highway 38 away from Big Bear. After this reporter pointed out the discrepancy they solidified behind Lieutenant Foy’s version. According to Public Information Officer Andrew Hughan of the Fish and Wildlife Department, the purple SUV passed the school buses as did the officer’s cars.
PIO Hughan stated that after driving past Glass Road, the officers realized they had lost him and turned back. The SUV crashed and the suspect reportedly commandeered a silvery–white truck owned by Rick Heltebrake, an onsite ranger for the Boy Scout campground. Reportedly the truck was taken at rifle-point. According to most versions, the suspect drove the truck away from Highway 38 and then turned around.
Meanwhile, two other Fish and Wildlife cars came from the East and turned on Glass Road. According to Officer Hughan and Lieutenant Patrick Foy of the Fish and Wildlife Department in Sacramento, the game warden in the first of the second set F&W cars believed he visually identified Dorner as he passed him in a car. The second F&W car was fired upon and hit (with about 5 or more rounds).
According to Hughan, Dorner turned East on 38 towards Big Bear. He stated that 38 and Glass curve towards each other. In his version, one of the F&W officers got out of his car and ran across the area towards where 38 (E) comes close to Glass and fired 15 to 20 rounds, emptying his clip. According to Lt. Foy, the F&W officer ran across an area where Glass did a hairpin turn and shot at the truck while it was on Glass Road. A while later Rick’s truck crashed.
………
And if Dorner is dead, who is left to tell the tale of the two manifestos? The version released by most media outlets was inconsistent with the original manifesto and clearly written by a different person than the individual who wrote the original. But was the original even written by Dorner? If Dorner is dead, the public is left to make up its own theories.
Was Dorner even at Big Bear? Did he really shoot any of the individuals he is accused of shooting? The police mistook two women for him last week. Maybe it was two women who did all the shootings. Maybe it was two women in the cabin – if the officers up north have similar eyesight to the officers in Torrance.
Under the Constitution of the United States, a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. This leaves Dorner legally innocent. But what is the truth and will we ever know?
Bettykath wrote:
, Here’s an article on how the media played it at the time.
Darren, Yes, it was deliberate and intentional. They shut the media down. The official statement was false.
The author of that article does not fully know what he is talking about especially in his comments about police procedures the radio recording.
The reason the police did not rush in the building when it was on fire, bullets were popping off due to the heat and a serial killer who had just murdered another officer and wounded another. Rushing in to rescue him would have been likely deadly for those doing so.
This bit about the officials censoring the media. First, you don’t want to give the suspect inside, who could have had access to live broadcasts and video could have easily used this information to kill other officers, especially when armed with a hunting / sniper rifle. You don’t want to give a person bent on killing any information the can use to kill another person.
The other aspect is that because so many events are unfolding rapidly, it is premature to make any statements to the media until they can be verified by further investigation. It is not about coverup or conspiracy it is about presenting factual information.
LEOs don’t go around having WACO or Ruby Ridge in mind that dictates their every move so that they can cover up everything. They are dealing with events as they unfold at the time. But a lot of these conspiracy theorists often resort to this type of thinking and falsely co-relate those events of 15 years ago as being indicative of what police do today.
Again, wait until the forensics are completed on the fire and autopsy for a better and more clear idea of what happpened. and understand that a few facts might not be determined in the end.
What OS said.
There was not any conspiracy theory type cover up of what happened. I also am not one to just automaticly “side with the police’ There are some things that are readily apprarent in the police sound recording and then there are some that will have to be determined by further investigation. It is what it is.
Otteray’s forensics are clear on the psychological aspect. He does this for a living and is certainly credentialled. I think it is certainly applicable what he describes of the suspect.
About suicide by a person setting themselves on fire. I had only one of those cases. (I was the first one on scene but it was another agency’s responsibility so I didn’t do follow up on it) The person parked in the middle of a vantage point parking lot on the interstate one night, while inside the car he (likely) poured gasoline, set back the seat and lit himself up.
A passing trucker saw the car on fire and called it in. When I got there it was fully engufed. At first I thought it was another stolen car that some bangers set on fire afterward, which was a problem at the time. Nobody was around but the trucker. By then it was dark but I found a jacket with a cell phone and some personal items on a sidewalk away from the car. I turned on the cell phone and listened to the messages to see who it belonged to and find out how to return it to the owner. The messages included “This is mom, please call me back, I love you.” and another said “Man don’t do it, call me back.” I then ran up to the car which was extremely hot at the time and inside I saw the man’s remains. When I went to turn off the cell phone to preserve its battery, I hit some button and an app popped up having a zippo lighter with a flame flickering.
There are some people that do the most irrational things and think in the most counterproductive manner. It’s not always a coverup by the police.
this has been in moderation due to the language (I think). I’ll clean it up and try again. Changes will be indicated [ ]
Michael, Here’s an article on how the media played it at the time.
Darren, Yes, it was deliberate and intentional. They shut the media down. The official statement was false.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/how-law-enforcement-and-media-covered-plan-burn-christopher-dorner-alive?page=0%2C0&akid=10054.259653.AL1MxB&rd=1&src=newsletter794508&t=6
How Law Enforcement and Media Covered Up the Plan to Burn Christopher Dorner Alive
HIghly disturbing behavior by newspaper and Live TV sources in complying with the San Bernardino Sheriffs.
February 13, 2013 |
At approximately 7 PM ET, I listened through a police scanner as San Bernardino Sheriffs gave the order to burn down the cabin where suspected murderer Christopher Dorner was allegedly hiding. Deputies were maneuvering a remote controlled demolition vehicle to the base of the cabin, using it to tear down the walls of the cabin where Dorner was hiding, and peering inside.
In an initial dispatch, a deputy reported seeing “blood spatter” inside the cabins. Dorner, who had just engaged in a firefight with deputies that killed one officer and wounded another, may have been wounded in the exchange. There was no sign of his presence, let alone his resistance, according to police dispatches.
It was then that the deputies decided to burn the cabin down.
“We’re gonna go ahead with the plan with the burner,” one sheriff’s deputy told another. “Like we talked about.” Minutes later, another deputy’s voice crackled across the radio: “The burner’s deployed and we have a fire.”
Next, a sheriff reported a “single shot” heard from inside the house. This was before the fire had penetrated deeply into the cabin’s interior, and may have signaled Dorner’s suicide. At that point, an experienced ex-cop like him would have known he was finished.
Over the course of the next hour, I listened as the sheriffs carefully managed the fire, ensuring that it burned the cabin thoroughly. Dorner, a former member of the LAPD who had accused his ex-colleagues of abuse and racism in a lengthy, detailed manifesto, was inside. The cops seemed to have little interest in taking him alive.
“Burn that f [ ] ucking house down!” shouted a deputy through a scanner transmission inadvertently broadcast on the Los Angeles local news channel, KCAL 9. “F [ ] ucking burn this motherf [ ] ucker!” another cop could be heard exclaiming.
While live ammo exploded inside the cabin, the deputies pondered whether the basement would burn as well – they wanted to know if its ceiling was made of wood or concrete. They assumed Dorner was hiding there, and apparently wanted to ensure that he would be burned to a crisp. “Because the fire is contained, I’m gonna let that heat burn through the basement,” a deputy declared.
SWAT teams airlifted to the location were told to be ready in case Dorner did manage to escape. “Guys be ready on the number four side [the front of the cabin],” a deputy declared. “He might come out the back.”
Just after 7 PM (4 PM PT), right when the orders were given to deploy the “burners,” the San Bernardino Country Sheriff’s Department Public Information Officer Cindy Bachman hastily gathered reporters for an impromptu press conference. Claiming to know nothing new, she told reporters that she had no idea why the cabin was on fire, or who started the fire. Reporters badgered Bachman for information, but she had none, raising the question of why the presser was convened when it was.
Around the same time, the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department requested that all reporters and media organizations stop tweeting about the ongoing standoff with Dorner, claiming their journalism was “hindering officer safety.” As the cabin sheltering Dorner burned, the local CBS affiliate was reportedly told by law enforcement to zoom its helicopter camera out to avoid showing the actions of sheriff’s deputies. By all accounts, the media acceded to police pressure for self-censorship.
On Twitter, the Riverside Press Enterprise, a leading local newspaper, announced on Twitter, “Law enforcement asked media to stop tweeting about the#Dorner case, fearing officer safety. We are complying.” The paper’s editors added, “We are going to tweet broad, non-tactical details, as per the San Bernardino DA’s request.”
Per [San Bernardino Country Sheriff’s Department] request,” tweeted the local CBS affiliate, KCBS, “we are complying and will not tweet updates on #Dorner search.”
At the time that I am writing this, some online media outlets are beginning to entertain the possibility that San Bernardino County Sheriff’s deliberately set the fire that killed Dorner – a fact that I reported on Twitter as soon the sheriff’s department order came down. If there is any doubt about the authenticity of the YouTube clip containing audio of the sheriff deputies’ orders to burn the cabin down, I can verify that it is the real thing. I was listening to the same transmissions when they first blared across the police scanners.
In the hours after the standoff, however, the police cover-up remained unchallenged thanks largely to local media complicity. An initial Los Angeles Times report recounted the incident in a passive voice, claiming “flames began to spread through the structure, and gunshots, probably set off by the fire, were heard.” Similarly, LA’s ABC affiliate, KABC, quoted Bachman’s vague comment about “that cabin that caught fire,” failing to explore why it was aflame or who torched it.
Today, the Los Angeles Times reported claims by anonymous “law enforcement sources” that the sheriffs used “incendiary tear gas” to flush Dorner out of the cabin. The sources claimed the deputies who had besieged the cabin were under a “constant barrage of gunfire” and that, “There weren’t a lot of options.”
This is almost certainly a lie. The only mention by a deputy at the scene of a gunshot from inside the cabin was the “single shot” that occurred as soon as the “burners,” or incendiary teargas munitions, were deployed. After that point, deputies made constant mention of ammunition exploding inside the cabin as a result of the intense heat of the fire they set, but said nothing about any shots fired at them.
If there were a “constant barrage of gunfire,” it would have been the main source of concern among the police at the scene. Instead, they were preoccupied with ensuring that the fire burned the cabin completely without spreading into the surrounding woods.
There is a grand tradition of law enforcement using incendiary devices to assault besieged suspects, and of covering up their use. One of the most famous examples of this tactic, and its horrible consequences, was the Philadelphia Police Department’s bombing of the compound of the radical black nationalist cult, M.O.V.E., dropping C-4 explosives by helicopter on the house, killing 11 members of the group, including 5 children, and destroying 65 homes in the West Philadelphia neighborhood.
It was not until the 51-day FBI siege of the Waco, Texas compound of the messianic Branch Davidian cult that “burners,” or incendiary 40mm military grade cartridges, were used to burn a structure down. Six years after claiming that the Branch Davidians deliberately burned their own compound down, the FBI finally admitted that it used incendiary rounds, but insisted that none of them contributed to the fire that consumed the compound.
The “burners,” or pyrotechnic rounds the San Bernardino County Sheriffs used to torch Dorner’s cabin, are likely similar, and perhaps more powerful, than those employed by the FBI in Waco. Through the five-year-old “Department of Defense Excess Property Program,” the US military has provided police departments across the country with billions of dollars worth of military equipment, from amphibious tanks to AR-15 assault rifles, allowing the military to circumvent Posse Comitatus regulations by outsourcing their firepower to local cops.
“Burners,” or military grade incendiary grenades, are very likely among the items passed down from the US army to local police outfits like the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department.The “burner” of choice for the modern American soldier is the AN-M14 TH3. It is a hand held grenade comprised of a thermite mixture that rapidly converts to molten iron when it is thrown, burning at a temperature of 4000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn through a half inch steel plate or bring an engine block to a boil. It can also produce enough heat to set off unloaded ammunition, which would explain why the ammo inside Dorner’s hideout was popping.
If the San Bernardino Sheriffs employed the AN-M14 TH3 or something like it against Dorner – and it appears they did – they have good reason to attempt to cover their actions up. Without even a token attempt to establish communication with the suspect, who was, to be sure, a wanted killer hell-bent on murdering cops, they attacked him with what was likely a military grade weapon designed to destroy fortified structures. By burning Dorner alive, then misleading and deceiving the public about the operation, the sheriffs may have validated the rogue ex-cop’s sharpest indictments of the culture of American law enforcement.
Yet no element in the Dorner drama was more disturbing than the performance of mainstream media. At every point, major news outlets complied with law enforcement calls for self-censorship, and still demonstrate little interest in determining how and why a lethal fire started on a snow-covered mountain in the dead of winter. As a quintessentially American tragedy reaches its denouement, the truth remains buried beneath a smoldering pile of ashes.
Read a Storify collection of Max Blumenthal’s livetweeting of the Dorner standoff.
This case will be a good study in how the media plays it out. Facts were all over the place from how many bullets were fired and hit the two women in the paper truck, the honda accord man not being injured to the cleaning ladies finding Dorner in the cabin. I will not be surprise to find that at least one of the officers shot were from friendly fire.
ID, before and after. Got an interview with one this afternoon who was captured. Needless to say, the interview will take place at the jail.
Given so many jurisdictions were involved, plus the fact there were alleged civil rights violations when officers shot at civilians during the manhunt, I cannot imagine the FBI and ATF not getting involved. Facts are still coming out, and the body has not yet been positively identified. That has to wait on DNA tests to come back from the lab. Given the muddled and often wrong information coming from media, everyone would be well advised to wait until the official findings come back.
There is precedent for a blue ribbon panel to be appointed to oversee the investigation, which I hope happens. Every agency will have their own agenda to CYA, so the more independent the investigation the better. Guilty parties can lie to media, but lying to the FBI, ATF or US Marshals, will get you five months at the Federal pen. Ask Martha Stewart. She did not commit a crime, but lied during the investigation. Had she told the truth, she would have been embarrassed, but would never have gone to prison. Every one of those officers and their supervisors know the risk of lying to federal investigators.
If they had intended to burn him out, they would have used thermite grenades. I can tell everyone here for a fact that if they used thermite grenades, the fire would have burned a heck of a lot faster than what I saw on the live TV feed. An incendiary tear gas canister has a very hot flame about the size of a candle flame for a few seconds. It can ignite dry wood.
This is what a thermite grenade looks like when set off. Notice it burns though a thick piece of steel plate in a matter of seconds, and where embers splash on the steel plate, they leave deep pits. Once thermite starts burning, it cannot be extinguished.
OS,
Hmmmm!
Do all perps think alike?
Do all have Dorner’s background, military training, rank (Captain) and are willing die in a shoot out or by own suicide.?
Relevance for you to judge.
Again experience is no substitute to personal contact. but by the nature of your work you deal with perps after they have died.
Darren,
I retreat from my opinion previously because I have not listened to the whole tape I will return if I have something to aid.
I believe that you have here swallowed and support the police version of everytning was Dorner’s fault: accelerant, popping ammo, will to destroy himself and his traces as being Dorner’s decission, etc.
“Back to the tac channel recording. I was surprised at how fast the fire started and spread to engulf the entire house. It was extraordinarily fast. There is a strong possibility that an accelerant was involved, either put there by the suspect who might have known that CS would be shot in or that there was something in the cabin that was highly flammable. The suspect had already torched his vehicle so it was possible he might have intended to do the same thing with the cabin and had gasoline inside. I don’t have enough info to be sure here. The fire investigation will reveal what the cause was hopefully with certainty.”======Darren
We could agree that you support and accept the police version before proof or evidence is presented in a properly secured evidence chain.
I do not.
Read Choir Boys, by a former LAPD officer with 14 years service.
OS:
thank you for those interesting posts, it gives the layman a little behind the scenes look.
Darren,
Can’t buy your transcript interpretation. I believe the mention of blood was before the fire, indicating that someone had been inside.
Secondly after the leader indicates that burners will be used, and have arrived (and are in place—otherwise no mention would be made by leader).
His voice is shortly afterwards followed by a female officer announcing we have a fire, we have a fire. Hardly a gas as in tear gas etc would cause a “fire”, and the house did burn, sanitizing it, just as a vehicle was burned and sanitized previously and the vehicle deed attributed to Dorner.
If they can look in and see blood then they could have searched the cabin, but that was not in the script.
More after reading more. Thanks for your take. Opposing ideas are good for all our brains to munch on.
Darren, I am aware of several similar instances where there was fire. In every case there were two things operant with the perp, from a forensic psychological point of view. For one thing, they have no intention of being taken alive, so suicide is the only option. The last thing they want is to come out guns blazing in an attempt at ‘suicide by cop.’ Too much chance of only being wounded by a well placed sniper shot meant only to wound and surviving. A truly good sniper could have aimed for something like his knee, shoulder or even a gut shot. Second, if the place is on fire, only the worst masochist would want to be burned alive. Commit suicide before the flames reach him.
The reference to the closed restaurant in Jackson, MS is eerily similar in some respects to the Dorner case. An unstable guy with military experience shot eight African American people, killing one, then holed up in a recently closed Po’ Folks restaurant. The restaurant was next to Metrocenter mall on Ellis Avenue in Jackson. It was only a hundred yards or so from Interstate 20. My youngest son was driving past Metrocenter on the Interstate in the pickup when he heard gunfire and saw people scrambling for cover. He was former military and had been a security guard. Training took over. He slammed on the brakes, pulled the truck onto the median and dived out of the truck and into the ditch in the center of the median. He kept his head down and tried to make himself as small as possible because he was only a hundred yards from the restaurant where the guy had holed up. The perp apparently thought he could hide in there and pick off African Americans one by one, since there was a black church nearby where he had already shot several victims. We don’t think he counted on a precinct station being literally around the corner from the restaurant and police were on the scene in a matter of seconds from when the shooting started. He had gasoline with him, and set the place on fire himself before committing suicide. The police had to keep the scene as secure as they could until they were certain he was no longer a threat. My son stayed in that ditch about two hours before the all clear was sounded.
There were tactical similarities and also differences in the two cases. One of the biggest differences between the Dorner case and the Jackson, MS case was the cabin was out in the woods and it was a lot easier for law enforcement to set up a thousand meter perimeter. In Jackson, they were next to the busiest shopping mall in town, and at one of the busiest intersections. Here is an account of that story, along with a photo of the burning restaurant.
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=larry_wayne_shoemake_1&printerfriendly=true
http://blogs.clarionledger.com/jmitchell/files/2010/03/PoFolks-fire.jpg
Dorner killed one officer and wounded another critically only minutes before the cabin caught fire. I doubt you would have found much sympathy for him while he was holed up in the cabin. As former military and LEO, this man was well trained in firearms. It is obvious they did not know what weapons he had with him, but with a decent hunting rifle and scope, he could have gotten off a kill shot at a thousand meters. That means they had to keep civilians, firefighters and EMS at least that far away. Reporters are civilians. I think they used tear gas, but a tear gas grenade has an igniter that burns at several thousand degrees to get the chemical reaction going that makes the gas. The flame is small, does not last long, but is hot enough to set a wooden building on fire if the flame was against a wood surface. They won’t harm a concrete slab floor. They put in seven “burners”; i.e., chemical reaction tear gas grenades into the building.
Dorner had no intention of being taken alive. If he had, he would have surrendered instead of shooting two more officers. A friend of mine works in radio. He took the real time audio and cleaned up the background noise. You can hear the officers trying to determine if he had a safe room, such as the basement. You can hear their concern about how close the propane tanks were to the cabin. If they had cooked off and exploded, it would have compounded an already dangerous situation.
They think the tear gas grenades started the fire, but it is entirely possible Dorner started it himself. The guy who holed up in a closed restaurant in Jackson, MS in 1996 had gasoline with him and burned the place himself after shooting about eight people.
Here is the real time audio that Kestrel isolated from most of the static and background noise. It is a lot clearer here than on the news sites.
https://soundcloud.com/kestrel9000/dorner-standoff-police-radio
Folks
Here is a basic transcript of the radio traffic. for the scene just as the gas was sent in. I am providing commentary. I don’t know if there was any editing (I doubt there was)
At the beginning they announce they are forcing open a window to shoot the tear gas in (they refer to these as “burners”)
They then began planning to set up perimeter and to open a door (I don’t know how this is being done)
The mention going ahead to use the burner (gas canister(s)) and prepare to execute.
Several seconds goes buy and they indicate they have deployed the gas and that a fire has resulted. (1:30)
Dispatcher reports 7? burners deployed and that they have a fire. (might have been using a repeating CS projectile gun)
It seems that there are two incident scenes or two groups being handled over the channel. One scene / group involves a search of some property referring to an RPG round, blood stains and a relative. The other scene / group is where the suspect is holed up with the CS gas deployment and fire. I don’t have enough information to know for sure.
2:20 an officer reports the front of the house is on fire and state that “he might come out the back.”
Officer instructs officers at the front of the house to watch their “backdrops” meaning if they have to fire their rifles, to be aware there are other officers behind the house.
62Sam1 (probably a person in a leadership role judging by the ending “1”) instructs the dispatcher to have fire department respond and stage. “Stage” means to respond to the location but wait at a specified location away from danger until instructed by LEOs to come forward.
301. Officer reports hearing one gunshot from the residence.
Dispatcher confirms / officer tells her to have fire stage.
Supervisory officer tells perimeter units to stand by.
NE corner is fully engulfed
(Multiple units talking at once) ..break fully engulfed. (speed of house burning is rapidly increasing as evidence by two units trying to report this)
reports structure beginning to collapse
4:10 tactical supervisor and other unit discuss whether it is safe to bring fire department in.
Tactical person reports it is too dangerous to have fire respond due to an unsecured corner of the house and that live ammo is popping off. This is caused by the fire heating up bullets until they burst. This is too dangerous of a situation to bring the fire department in.
(Multiple units covering) …fully engulfed
More ammo continues to pop off
Announcement that the house has a basement, another tactical issue.
~+~ Analysis ~+~
Undstand that the only information I have is this recording of the radio channel. More information will become available from the fire investigation and autopsy.
I do not belive at all there was any intention by the police to set the house on fire in order to burn up the suspect. The other recording made of officers talking about burning him up was adrenalin and being amped up and talking to themselves after having been through an ordeal with a fellow officer killed. This was not radio traffic. This is stress talking. It happens occasionally and is upsetting to some in the public. It is not related to the tactical units deploying the tear gas.
Back to the tac channel recording. I was surprised at how fast the fire started and spread to engulf the entire house. It was extraordinarily fast. There is a strong possibility that an accelerant was involved, either put there by the suspect who might have known that CS would be shot in or that there was something in the cabin that was highly flammable. The suspect had already torched his vehicle so it was possible he might have intended to do the same thing with the cabin and had gasoline inside. I don’t have enough info to be sure here. The fire investigation will reveal what the cause was hopefully with certainty.
I believe it is most probable the suspect committed suicide by shooting himself after the fire spread large enough. He did not want to come out of this and be arrested.
There was a significant amount of live ammo that was in the house with the suspect and it was popping off. Given the fact that the suspect had already killed another LEO, the house was on fire, and ammo was popping off it would have been far too dangerous to attempt a rescue of the suspect when in all likelihood he was dead alread from the suicide shot.
AS for the talk of the driver license not being burned, I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on this at this stage as the fire investigation will continue.
Another thing. There were multiple LE agencies on scene, state, federal, local and national news media on site. With all that scrutiny they would have not deliberately and intentionally tried to burn this man to death. That did not happen. I will bet that BATFE will investigate the fire and more details will come out later.
From the radio dialogue:
They reported from on entering prior to the burn finding blood stains, but was not listening to hear if a body had been found. Blood may have been code for body. If Dorn’s then rescue it, rescue anybody’s. So recovering a body after the burn is just BS.
Burning a cabin is just destroying evidence. If it was Dorners then it would be full of info, even who he was cooperating with, if any, etc.
If it was NOT Dorner’s, then it should also be preserved as a place where later examination can yield at later exam.
Did anyone hear a storning or an order to shoot the cabin or grenade it before they entered and reported blood stains. If you don’t know who or what is in a cabin, do you torch it.
Guess I’ll be forced to listen to it carefully.
And yes they will do whatever is need to CYA and advance their cause, as directed from above.
I have not figured out how they KNOW that this man killed the woman and her fiance. There was apparently a trial at the police department about this that I missed. But I haven’t seen it in any articles I have read. And as I remember my Facebook account, anyone could have set a Facebook account up in anyone else’s name, and written anything they wanted to. Is THIS all the evidence there was against this man that he did these murders? If there are witnesses, might those witnesses have been LAPD cops or someone those cops knew? I mean is there any SOLID evidence that this man committed these murders?
and how lucky for them that that drivers’ license was made of unmeltable plastic!
just sayin’
lotta,
Where have you been?! Never mind … I don’t care. I HAVE MISSED YOU!!
Hmmmmm,
http://www.businessinsider.com/police-appeared-to-shout-burn-this-mother-down-before-fire-engulfed-rogue-ex-cops-cabin-2013-2