Shawn Moore is a certified firearms instructor for the National Rifle Association and a New Jersey hunter education instructor. He was proud of his son for recently passing his hunter’s permit course and posted this picture of his boy in camouflage holding his .22 rifle. A Facebook “friend” saw the picture and reported him to the New Jersey police and Dept. of Children and Families for child endangerment. Moore says that his home was raided, searched, and he was threatened with the loss of custody in response to the complaint.
While not commenting on the alleged raid, Department Spokesperson Kristen Brown said. “We are required to follow up on every single allegation that comes into the central registry.” That is a bit surprising if the allegation describes lawful conduct. Children are allowed to hunt in New Jersey. I had assumed that there was some screening that occurs. Moreover, I am not sure why there is no intermediate step short of the search of the home.
Moore says that he received an text message from his wife that the Carneys Point Police Dept. and the New Jersey Dept. of Children and Families were at the home demanding to see his guns and gun safe. The officers were told by his lawyer to leave the home absent a warrant. He says that that officers responded that the demand for them to get a warrant was “suspicious” behavior. If true, that would be highly abusive and unconstitutional. A citizen invoking their rights does not create reasonable suspicion, let alone probable cause. While the officers said that they would get a warrant, he says that they never returned.
It does strike me as odd that anyone can trigger such an action based on a photo that does not show any illegal action or conduct that is demonstrably dangerous in a state where children are allowed to hunt and shoot such weapons.
What do you think?
Source: Yahoo
Tony C.
“I said that is what should have happened; I do not think CPS should have ever left their office for this case.
Even public employees, like CPS or the police or other law enforcement, ave a responsibility to not let themselves be used as pawns by racists, religious bigots, homophobics or other haters, or just ideologues that want to harass people for engaging in lawful activity they dislike. If the CPS or police or other law enforcement let themselves be used as pawns then they become an instrument of discrimination and oppression instead of an enemy of it.”
Very good points, and all the more reason why the system needs clearly articulated rules…….What constitutes ‘abuse and neglect’ should not be up to the individual agent to interpret. Imagine if law enforcement officers had the power to simply decide something was illegal based on how they felt about it? Not an action clearly articulated in law written by legislatures, but using his own subjective opinion……CPS does that……..Technically, it’s a judge that signs the order, but they follow the opinions of the CPS agents.
Again, the ‘Kids with broken bones’ crowd being a prime example…….Someone mentioned earlier some reference to ‘Ramen noodle burns’…….That tells me now that somewhere, some CPS agency has created a training program which has identified ‘Ramen noodle burns’ as evidence of neglect, and are now training their agents that if a child accidentally burns themselves with hot soup, that is evidence of parental malfeasance, which can then be articulated to a judge in order to order further intrusion.
And it goes beyond that, added to the list are things such as ‘education neglect’ where parents are being forced by the state and school systems to medicate and drug their children with psychotropics to make them more docile in classrooms.
CPS, like other governments, is constantly expanding it’s reach, because it’s interest, like all governments agencies, is at it’s core about one thing……EXPANDING IT’S BUDGET! With more federal dollars at stake, CPS agencies have a vested interest in expanding it’s reach and it’s authority.
Tony C. “So stop calling them names and claiming they are all petty jackbooted thugs with limited intelligence. Only a petty jackbooted thug with limited intelligence would fail to understand that.”
Having read Jarvis statement and your retort, it seems clear that you don’t have much basis for determing what is, in fact, limited intelligence, as you clearly suffer from that malady. For example, I didn’t read anyone saying they were petty jackbooted thugs…..I did read several references to arbitrary and limited in education and training. I think that’s probably pretty easily proven.
Also, saying your kid is one doesn’t really change whether they are or are not limited in education and training……’Hey, don’t say that stuff, my kid works for them and it hurts my feelings to hear people criticize them’…..So? Not a valid argument.
But thank you for playing.
Elaine M.
Arguing from the extreme example is a logical fallacy……This child was neither starved NOR physically abused. In fact, the state had no evidence of any wrong doing whatsoever…..They had a call alleging some violation of the callers sense of properity. They showed up, demanded access, were denied by the family, who invoked their Constitution Rights, and the automatic default responses was that invoking rights was clearly ‘suspicious’ and cause for further investigation.
Real quick…..What law did the family violate? If you can’t even show me what law they were ALLEGED to have violated, you can’t justify investigating…..Investigating what, genius? That’s the problem……The arbitrary nature of the system.
Broken bones? Clear violation of the law, allegations of physical abuse are a no brainer……And easily confirmed or denied, same with malnutrition…….Unfortunately the trend is more and more vague violations of opinion, contempt of DFS worker should not be justification for further intrusion without evidence…..That’s the point, and if you don’t get that, it well demonstrates the mentality i’m talking about.
Mike Jarvis: Those saying ‘My daughter works for CPS, they have a hard job’……so what?
So stop calling them names and claiming they are all petty jackbooted thugs with limited intelligence. Only a petty jackbooted thug with limited intelligence would fail to understand that.
Sirfith: Do you typically have such severe reading comprehension problems?
I said that is what should have happened; I do not think CPS should have ever left their office for this case.
Even public employees, like CPS or the police or other law enforcement, have a responsibility to not let themselves be used as pawns by racists, religious bigots, homophobics or other haters, or just ideologues that want to harass people for engaging in lawful activity they dislike. If the CPS or police or other law enforcement let themselves be used as pawns then they become an instrument of discrimination and oppression instead of an enemy of it.
junctionshamus,
“I would bet that more children are needlessly removed from homes causing a lifetime of emotional scarring, than are killed due to a lack of intervention by CPS.”
I have no way of knowing whether that is true or not. The social workers I have known have been hesitant to remove children from their homes because there are so few good foster families.
Do you think an eighteen-month old child should be taken away from parents who burned her with cigarettes? What about a child who is continually underfed and neglected? How about a child whose bones have been fractured because he was beaten–or a child who has been sexually abused by a parent? I don’t think people have any idea how many children in this country actually suffer from physical and sexual abuse and neglect at the hands of their own parents.
Elaine – “Do you think an eighteen-month old child should be taken away from parents who burned her with cigarettes? What about a child who is continually underfed and neglected? How about a child whose bones have been fractured because he was beaten–or a child who has been sexually abused by a parent? I don’t think people have any idea how many children in this country actually suffer from physical and sexual abuse and neglect at the hands of their own parents.”
You’re being ridiculous. Let’s get off the sob-sister stuff and get back to the original argument. On the basis of an anonymous complaint about a photograph, police and a CPS worker responded and tried to enter a residence in violation of the 4th Amendment. When told “NO!” they continued their efforts but were rebuffed. In an attempt to determine the identity of this child welfare worker, the worker refused to comply with his request for her identity.
That’s it, she’s a Jenny (a female jack ass), and should be held accountable for (1) overstepping the bounds of her authority; and (2) trying to hide her identity, b/c she knew she was wrong.
I don’t know your daughter, or S-I-L. Maybe they do a fantastic job. If so, great! BUT, if they want to be in the CPS business, they certainly have to be tougher than what you say. It’s tough to see the wrong, it’s even tougher to admit it, when you are wrong. I’m just glad the good Lord has given me a wife who reminds me of how wrong I can be.
OS,
I think you are safe. I don’t think locusts are a protected species! 🙂
This case is evidence of the blind leading the blind. Any police action should always be based on credible evidence, even when a child is involved.
Mr. Natural,
“The lesson is clear. Facebook should be used for nothing but posting photos of loyal citizens pledging allegiance to their flag.”
Or, nothing at all.
Tony C.
If “the act was entirely legal, and thus dropping the matter, with no probable cause to warrant looking further.” is true, why did the worker refused to identify herself? When “Mr. Moore demanded that she give her name. She refused and ran away.”
Kansas, that’s two.
I spent 20 years working with CPS. My experience is that some are scent, others useless. Many spent part of their time ‘fraternizing’ with cops they went on callouts with. The issue isn’t the individuals, its the arbitrary nature of what constitutes ‘abuse’……As a cop, we enforce clearly written laws. The definition of abuse and neglect is up to the subjective opinion of the individual agent.
Those who disagree, please, cite a specific outline, other than agent opinion, that shows what is and is not neglect that shows this case falling in it. This was fishing. There was no alleged crime, no alleged abuse.
Those saying ‘My daughter works for CPS, they have a hard job’……so what? CPS does have a purpose…….they are like chemotherapy………if you have cancer, or there is real abuse, it can save lives…….but, give Chemo to a healthy family, and you cause serious damage…….my issue is the arbitrary power.
junctionshamus,
I have no doubt that there are incompetent social workers–some of whom may abuse their positions. That is true of people who work in many different professions and in many different jobs. One has to look at who is responsible for hiring and/or keeping such workers in their positions. I’d add that the stress level for DCF workers is very high. The profession has quite a turnover rate.
Another thing–there have been horror stories about children who were killed/went missing after investigators failed to follow up on cases of abuse/neglect.
Amazing fear-mongering and gun-phobic ignorance from vendetta1369 and magginkat.
Yes. simple .22 rifles (that children of that age have used in markmanship classes at summer camps for decades) are now “assault rifles” — because the modern version use PLASTIC rather than wood stocks and thus are all-black in color.
A little touch-up paint, making this all black, and you two can call it an assault weapon:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/assaultbaseballbat.jpg
John – Paint it pink and it’s “Hello Kitty!” – hellokittyak471211431171.jpg
Elaine – What you say is true, up to a point. I would bet that more children are needlessly removed from homes causing a lifetime of emotional scarring, than are killed due to a lack of intervention by CPS.
Mike Jarvis says” CPS workers tend to be poorly educated with night school sociology degrees paid for at tax payer expense who are given no training in the Constitution nor do they believe it applies to them.”
I guess then anyone who uses government money, like pell grants or the GI bill is not getting a good education or is using money they shouldn’t have received?
I have never been involved with CPS, I have only a BA from day school classes but I think you have an axe to grind for some reason and are painting with an awfully broad brush.
Mike Jarvis: My niece is involved in Child Protective services and you do not know what you are talking about. She did not graduate from night school, she graduated cum laude from a four year university with a bachelors degree. Her mother (my sister) is a sociologist.
When one is exposed to kids on a daily basis being raised by drug-addicted mothers in roach-infested houses with kitchens stacked with filthy plates and coated in a layer of rancid grease, when one see kids infested with lice and fleas eating moldy bread or casually brushing live roaches off the dry cereal they are eating, it is possible one can develop a rather calloused attitude toward what parents are capable of doing (or not doing) with their kids. Such people tend to take every report of abuse or endangerment as worthy of investigation, just as they should.
However, the story says, Department Spokesperson Kristen Brown said. “We are required to follow up on every single allegation that comes into the central registry.”
They should be so required, but I think “following up” in this case is just the act of determining, as Professor Turley indicated, that the act was entirely legal, and thus dropping the matter, with no probable cause to warrant looking further.
Mike Jarvis,
Social workers who are employed by the Department of Children and Families (DCF) must have a college education–many have masters degrees. They must also pass a test in order to be licensed by the state. I know that is true in my state. Can you name the states where DCF/CPS workers are only poorly educated busybodies who are given no training?
Do you believe all DCF/CPS workers are ignorant and unqualified?
Elaine –
Colorado – one down, 49 to go…
The lesson is clear. Facebook should be used for nothing but posting photos of loyal citizens pledging allegiance to their flag.
Junction,
If I recall correctly…. The CPS have two sets of records… Those they divulge to the public which are required by law….. And those that they keep in house….. These are not public records and are exempt by law…. They can still be accessed by LEOs which makes no sense…..
Believe this or not…. They can be used to deny employment…. But you can access them…. Or at least this is the way that it is in Michigan….
Camo for a hunter? He’s a target. Where’s his neon orange or yellow vest?
Otherwise, a nice picture to commemorate a graduation.
I happen to know some CPS workers personally…….Many are among the worst parents I’ve ever seen……One has her kid so jacked with ritalin the kid is a zombie, another spent her teen years as a meth addict. This ‘its a tough job’ nonsense is idiotic. It is a tough job, that’s not an excuse to do it poorly or to trample peoples rights. Don’t do it if its too tough to do. The problem is that too many folks attracted to CPS are no logical thinkers. They are also used to validating complaints. If they show up at a house with good parents who don’t appreciate their interference, they take it personally and that is reflected in their subjective recommendation to judges. It is easy given the subjective nature of these jobs go rail road people. Creative report writting is a real skill.
Do not cooperate with CPS in searching your home, always contact an attorney, record ALL conversations. Document, document, document. CPS workers tend to be poorly educated busy bodies with night school sociology degrees paid for at tax payer expense who are given no training in the Constitution nor do they believe it applies to them. They are trained only to find some validation for any complaint, even ones like this that do not represent a violation of law. They are often used by vindictive third parties to intimidate and harrass exes, neighbors, or anyone else someone wants to engage in petty harrassment of.
On the flip side, if you’ve got someone with kids you don’t like, call CPS and make a bogus complaint. Be vague as possible, the more vague the allegation, say general emotional neglect instead of physical abuse, the more scrutiny and more likely something will be validated. Saw it happen many times over the years working around them.