-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
George Nathaniel III, a pastor of a church in Minneapolis and school bus driver in Burnsville, Minnesota, was terminated from his school bus driving job. Nathaniel said: “To fire a bus driver for praying for the safety of the children” is not right. It is wrong to fire someone for praying for the safety of the children, but Nathaniel is misrepresenting the facts to portray himself as a victim of the War on Christianity.
Nathaniel related a typical bus ride: “We start out with a song,” he said. “Then each person will pray if they want to pray. If they don’t want to pray, they don’t have to pray.” Nathaniel would lead the prayer.
The voluntary nature of the prayer has been addressed by the Supreme Court in Engel v. Vitale (1962). J. Black, wrote in the 6-1 opinion:
Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause …
In his concurrence in Vitale, J. Douglas cited McGowan v. Maryland (1961), where J. Warren wrote: “The First Amendment commands government to have no interest in theology or ritual,” and that on “matters of this kind government must be neutral.” J. Douglas also noted:
The First Amendment leaves the Government in a position not of hostility to religion, but of neutrality.
Ruth Dunn, communications director for the Burnsville-Eagan-Savage School District, said, “We do consider the school bus to be an extension of the school day when it pertains to student behavior and support.”
Teresa Nelson, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, noted that the bus driver has a “captive audience of kids on a school bus” and that Nathaniel’s actions would violate the Establishment Clause.
Operating a school bus should occupy the driver’s complete attention. A momentary lapse could be disastrous. Leading singing and prayers would distract even the most competent driver.
As Jeffrey Shulman notes: “at common law the parent had a “sacred right” to the custody of his or her child, that the parent’s right to control the upbringing of the child was almost absolute.” Nathaniel, in leading the children in prayer, had usurped their parent’s authority.
Nathaniel just couldn’t resist. He had a captive audience of children who were too young to object and lacked the education to offer reasoned counterarguments to his faith claims. If religious faith was anything more that imaginary, its adherents wouldn’t need to pick on the most gullible members of society.
“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” (Thomas Paine)
H/T: Austin Cline, Laurie Blake and Erin Adler, CBS Minnesota, Ed Brayton.
That was obviously also my point. That said, there are many people who believe textbooks are now dominated by a secular progressive agenda. It’s all about perspective. I pretty much ignored textbooks and created my own curriculum. I think history textbooks are horseshit and a major reason why kids find history boring.
nick,
My point is to look at who the driving forces are behind the use of certain kinds of textbooks to indoctrinate students in public schools. There is usually a “religious” connection. School boards/school districts should NOT cave to pressure from these religious individuals/groups. This is consistent with my belief that a bus driver should not be leading school children in prayer.
My point was indoctrination has always been a part of public education. The WCTU, Women’s Christian Temperance Union, applied pressure requiring textbooks approved by their Union, that had blatantly false information about alcohol, be used nationwide in schools. Those indoctrinated children grew up to be voters and helped launch a Constitutional Amendment that made this country a lawless nation. Your link, w/o any explanation, leaves people to have to guess your intent.
nick,
Have you heard of Mel and Norma Gabler?
nick,
I made no comment about doubting your veracity. You Google Mary Hunt…if you want.
nick,
Religion played a big part in the prohibition of alcohol in this country. That’s my point. You’re the one who introduced the subject of prohibition to this discussion.
Google Mary Hunt and WCTU approved textbooks if you doubt my veracity.
Davidm: “The man was being himself. It is like having a Santa Claus come on the bus bearing gifts, and you guys get upset with him because all he is suppose to do is drive the bus and not spread cheer and goodwill around.”
I’m not sure what your work place/life is.
Why not start going to work dressed as Santa Claus – not just once, but day after day. Spread cheer.
At business/client meetings, encourage the others to join you in singing Christmal carols – even in the middle of a summer heatwave.
If anyone objects, tell them that you are just being yourself. Tell them that you have a Constitutional right to free expression.
Good luck with that.
Davidm2575;
“Even though he was on the wrong side of logic . . .”
Irony, anyone?
Elaine, And the point of your link is…?
DavidM never throws epithets and yet they are constantly hurled @ him. He’s Ghandi like in that regard. I disagree w/ some of his points but grow more and more admitting of him as he withstands the abuse w/ dignity and class.
Origins of Prohibition
http://www.history.com/topics/prohibition
In the 1820s and ’30s, a wave of religious revivalism swept the United States, leading to increased calls for temperance, as well as other “perfectionist” movements such as the abolition of slavery. In 1838, the state of Massachusetts passed a temperance law banning the sale of spirits in less than 15-gallon quantities; though the law was repealed two years later, it set a precedent for such legislation. Maine passed the first state prohibition law in 1846, and a number of other states had followed suit by the time the Civil War began in 1861.
By the turn of the century, temperance societies were a common fixture in communities across the United States. Women played a strong role in the temperance movement, as alcohol was seen as a destructive force in families and marriages. In 1906, a new wave of attacks began on the sale of liquor, led by the Anti-Saloon League (established in 1893) and driven by a reaction to urban growth, as well as the rise of evangelical Protestantism and its view of saloon culture as corrupt and ungodly. In addition, many factory owners supported prohibition in their desire to prevent accidents and increase the efficiency of their workers in an era of increased industrial production and extended working hours.
Davidm, are you really that simple minded, or are you just f**kin,g with us? Seriously!
nick spinelli 1, November 16, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Public education has always been about indoctrination.
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So has indoctrination.
Public education has always been about indoctrination. One of the biggest mistakes in our history, Prohibition, did not occur overnight. It took decades of Carey Nation advocates getting their “philosophy” into the textbooks and curriculum. Children and women were integral in getting Prohibition passed. Public education has always about different interests exerting power and control to indoctrinate young minds w/ their philosophy. Left and right are always competing on these fronts. Surely this is no revelation.
Mike S.,
My guess would be that the parents whose children rode with this prayer-leading bus driver wondered why the school district allowed him to proselytize to their children en route to and from school. I suppose the original complaints to the school district came from parents. But…who cares about these kids and their parents? Gotta let the pastor impose his will on the children in his care.
I commented and asked up-thread:
The answer is:
Elaine, yes it seems so. They are wrong, we treasure our Constitutional rights as much as they.
Annie,
The one’s doing the indoctrinating believe they have a Constitutional right to do so. They don’t seem to think that those being indoctrinated have any right not to endure the indoctrination.
Bron,
I once heard one of our school bus drivers use a racial epithet in front of my students when we were on a field trip. He was the same man who showed up inebriated when he came to pick up two kindergarten classes at the Museum of Science in Boston one day. The teachers couldn’t allow their students to board the bus.