There is a controversy at the California State University where scientist Mark Armitage claims that he was fired for his creationist beliefs as an evangelical Christian. Armitage recently published a paper where he suggested that soft tissue that he found in a triceratops suggested that the animal died no more than 4000 years ago rather than the common view putting extinction at 65 million years ago. The school is investigating his claim of religious discrimination.
In his lawsuit, Armitage details his publications and research including the heralded discovery in 2012 of the largest triceratops horn ever recovered from the world-famous Hell Creek Formation in Glendive, Montana. The fossil then revealed an even more exciting discovery, soft tissue with what appeared to be live bone cells or osteocytes.
Armitage argued that the cells show would have long ago “decayed into nothingness” if it was millions years old. For creationists the point could not be more significant to suggest that the Earth is only a few thousand years old as stated in the bible. However, just days after the article was published, Armitage was fired.
While the university claimed that his temporary position was eliminated due to a budget shortfall, Armitage says that his superior, Dr. Ernest Kwok, was hostile to his religious beliefs and even once allegedly “stormed into” his lab and shouted, “‘We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!!”
While I have long been a critic of creationism and frankly I am a bit surprised to see a scientist clinging to such views, this does raise concerns over academic freedom unless the school can prove the budgetary claim. He is obviously an active and accomplished academic. His paper was published to express his view on the possible meaning of the find. (Note this is not the first such find and scientists have found such cells and, after prior find in fossils of a Tyrannosaurus rex, scientists concluded that the iron in the fossils had preserved the tissue from decay).
The controversy raises an interesting question of when such views are legitimate grounds for termination. For some scientists, a faculty member espousing creationist views is objectively unqualified. However, that would depend on how those views affect his teaching and research. Armitage is clearly functioning at a high level in this field, including the discovery and study of rare fossils. He is simply reaching a conclusion based on those findings that reflects a very small percentage of scientists. At what point does such minority views impact the status of an academic?
Armitage has a BS in Education from Liberty University and an MS in Biology (parasitology) at the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, CA. He later graduated Ed.S. in Science Education from Liberty University
He is currently listed as part of Creation Ministries. The site confirms what many would consider the distortive impact of faith on science:
“The scientific aspects of creation are important, but are secondary in importance to the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator, Redeemer and Judge.
The doctrines of Creator and Creation cannot ultimately be divorced from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
(B) BASICS
The 66 books of the Bible are the written Word of God. The Bible is divinely inspired and inerrant throughout. Its assertions are factually true in all the original autographs. It is the supreme authority, not only in all matters of faith and conduct, but in everything it teaches.”
Mike,
That’s why I’m puzzled. I don’t understand the meaning of any of Damon’s three sentences.
“Good science and Good Theology will always go hand in hand.”
What’s Good Theology?
I think I know Bad Science. It’s not Science.
What’s Bad Theology?
“The bible and science go together perfectly.”
In what way?
I don’t see…any going together…at all, sir.
Perspiring minds want to know.
Bob – if it is any help, I took the phrase to mean the same thing as ‘Hope and Change’
“I don’t see…any going together…at all”
I think there is a principle of logic that any statement follows from a false proposition.
“Bad science and or Bad theology will always conflict.”
Always? Isn’t it possible there is at least one example where bad science and bad theology support each other?
What about “4,000 dinosaur remains prove earth is only 4,000 years old” or “domesticated dinosaurs prove man’s dominion over the earth”?
OK, maybe that was too easy.
What about “Good science and Good Theology will always go hand in hand”
OK, lets try: “There is no evidence that Plan B, Ella, or the Mirena cause abortion by any definition” vs Hobby Lobby.
Damon,
I can’t divine the meaning of that.
And why are you sorry?
Sorry, but Good science and Good Theology will always go hand in hand. Bad science and or Bad theology will always conflict. The bible and science go together perfectly.
That’s correct, Mike. Mr. Armitage has published an article, which does assert Biblical accounts of creation, in a Creationist journal. The University wouldn’t have a problem with that, since they didn’t endorse it. His religious beliefs are his business.
The University hired Mr. Armitage to conduct Microscopy, and to instruct others in it. If he was proselytizing during the instruction, that would be an issue, if a student reported it.
Every account from theological blogs, that I’ve seen so far, attribute his firing to his article on Triceratops tissue. Very unlikely. Mr. Armitage probably provided the photographs of the microscopy work, and the materials and methods that he used to do that work. Mr. Armitage is probably not a paleontologist, so it’s likely that he did not write much of the rest of the paper. I’m familiar with that situation. I did the magnetic resonance imaging and spectroscopy work for other scientists who were experts in their fields. My name was added to many articles.
Mr. Armitage’s name was probably added to the Triceratops tissue article for much the same reason.
I was curious about how any scientific journal would allow religion-based speculation in an article, and why Dr. Anderson, Armitage’s co-author, would claim authorship, if the article contained such speculation.
I was too cheap to pay $35 to download the Armitage and Anderson paper describing the finding of soft Triceratops tissue,
Acta Histochemica 115, (2013) 603-608,
so I joined ResearchGate, just to download it for free. Had to present all kinda research credentials.
I have read the entire article. There’s zero commentary concerning the possible age of the tissue, or the fossil bone found with it.
It’s all science, reporting of what they found, micrographs of the tissue. Not even a hint of doubts about the age of the earth. No wild speculation.
If Armitage used these findings to argue for a young earth, he didn’t do it in a research article in any reputable scientific journal. A letter to the editor, perhaps?
Armitage was a part-time, temporary microscopy instructor. Not tenured, not a professor. It seems that he was offering religion-based interpretations of the soft-tissue he’d found, to those whom he was instructing in the use of microscopes. Totally off-topic, not in his job description.
A non-tenured, temporary employee at a University can be terminated at any time, without compensation. I was a non-tenured researcher at the University of CA, and when the grants that paid my salary expired, so did my employment. I didn’t like it, but that was the nature of my employment.
The University is unlikely to provide much information on Mr. Armitage’s termination. That’s a personnel matter, and discussing it brings lawsuits.
I’m feeling verklempt. Talk among yourselves. No suggested topic.
“I have read the entire article. There’s zero commentary concerning the possible age of the tissue, or the fossil bone found with it.”
That is interesting stuff. Based on your report, it sounds like what ever this guys problems, the paper is not reasonably a part of them.
So really we ought to be discussing the boundaries for classroom discussion lead by non tenured instructors. I would also guess that when the instructor is non tenured the boundaries are pretty much what ever the department head says they are – within the limits of free speech of course.
Schulte, from what I have read, the Corporation Commission is a rubber stamp, no less out of control than is Washington, responsible for approving the rate hikes in Anthem and, I forget the town, in a community southeast of Phoenix. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of any of these stories, in as much as you live in Arizona. The people that I know from Arizona, hate the place after having been overrun by tax and spend loonies and illegal aliens buying 3 shopping carts of food at a time, mostly junk and processed food, using food stamps, their kids gaining weight so quickly, they need bigger clothes every 60 days, the greedy healthcare providers all too eager to treat them with every known disease, such as diabetes, billing taxpayers with the ambition of buffalo hunters bent on wiping out the herd. Many diseases believed wiped out are returning with a vengeance in communities that are overrun with illegal aliens. You don’t find this news in the mainstream media, so you have to look for it.
Samantha – the Corporation Commission is an elected body and is rarely a rubber stamp. They have their own investigators who prepare a report and recommendations and then there are public hearings. I think they are term limited as well.
The illegals are Obama’s fault. Not the fault of Arizona. We have tried to arrest and send them back, but Obama keeps catching them and releasing them in cities and towns in Arizona.
Jim, I don’t believe in the voucher system. I think it makes 2 tiers of education. As for a holiday no I am not for that either. The kids are still in school whether “my” kids are in private school or not. It is not as though private school is a necessity. We pay for everyone’s kids to be educated. Maybe someone who has a kid in private school should have subtracted from his taxes the cost of educating one student so then you are not paying double for your own kid(s) by not paying the tax that would cover your kid(s)
Samantha, Just anecdotal but I have seen none of those bills go up. My garbage is thru a private company and that may have increased 2$ quarterly. My taxes have stayed the same for over 3 years.
Schulte, here are some excerpts, without the links to avoid WordPress burial. Just google outrageous water bills in Arizona. There are more stories than you want to read, and thousands more throughout the US. One lady in Anthem said that her water bill exceeded her mortgage payment. Raping of consumers and taxpayers cannot continue much longer. We are not far behind the bloody infighting that is going on in Ukraine.
Jul 23, 2014 – SURPRISE — Residents in West Valley are fed up with what they consider outrageous water rates… … The Arizona Corporation Commission is seeing one of its fiercest water-rate …
Mar 8, 2014 – Are the water bills outrageous in the anthem country club and … pstoegger, Home Buyer in Anthem, AZ …
Epcor Water West Valley (Tucson, Glendale: balloon payment, sale …
Oct 4, 2012 – Anyone else experiencing jacked up water bills from EPCOR WATER. … They bought out Arizona American Water. … but the bills I’m seeing are outrageous, in the $200 month range.
What is it like to haul water in Sahuarita?
Outrageous | Payson Roundup – Payson, AZ
May 9, 2014 – So it’s possible that the company will first collect the surcharge and then impose water hauling charges.
Wickenburg residents paying outrageous water bills – ABC15 Arizona
Jan 30, 2012 – Wickenburg resident outraged over dramatically high water bills.
You have high water bills? Let me know…. – Joe Ducey
Epcor could no doubt give you the details about Anthem water rates. … Denise Palmer Maricopa outrageous bills! … Last year EPCOR water took over Arizona American water and charged me triple.
Jan 12, 2011 – The water bill was extremely high for December use. … Real Estate Investor from Chandler, Arizona ..
Skyrocketing water bills mystify, anger residents – CNN.com
Mar 2, 2011 – Imagine paying as much for water as you do for your mortgage.
Global Water Company – Topix…
Feb 3, 2009 – 20 posts – 11 authors
I find it outrageous that Global Water charges a $25 Water Basic Charge …. Arizona Sales Tax $2.55
samantha – have read these and we do have a corporation commission that HAS to approve all rate hikes by public or private utilities. I am sure they well be down in Phoenix for the hearing when it comes up.
” the question of the Uncaused Cause was settled in the Medieval Period, actually before. It has not been disproved.”
I am going to guess the Uncaused Cause is somewhat reminiscent of the prime mover argument for the existence of god. Some people find that convincing some do not. I put it up there with Plato’s argument that no man can knowingly do wrong – interesting but unconvincing to me.
I would argue that logic cannot be taken as a complete and accurate guide to reality. It surprises some people but even when applied to purely logical systems such as mathematics, logical deduction has to be either incomplete or inconsistent.
Depending on your assumptions, logical systems fall into one of two categories: there will be true statements that cannot be deduced or there will be statements that you can deduce that contradict other statements you can deduce.
When you couple that characteristic of logical systems with the observation that quantum mechanics is filled with observations that seem to contradict our ordinary, logical understanding of reality I think you are left with the conclusion that it takes more than logic to get to the totality of reality.
Maybe there is an uncaused cause. But I would like to see some data and a test, that could in principle give a negative result, that was applied and found to be positive.
If we cannot find some data and specify a test that in principle could refute the existence of an uncaused cause, then we are probably not talking about science.
Maybe there is some sort of god particle or god process that is the basis of everything we know and everything we can know. But without some data and some tests, knowledge of that particle or process is outside the realm of science.
bfm – you can avoid or dismiss the Uncaused Cause, but, like death, it is still there in the shadows.
” you can avoid or dismiss the Uncaused Cause, but, like death, it is still there in the shadows.”
Just curious, would the big bang count as an uncaused cause? Is that what creationist are getting at?
bfm – the Uncaused Cause is the cause of the Big Bang or whatever caused the Big Bang
Schulte, I understand there are some municipalities in Arizona where the monthly water bill approaches $150.00. All across the nation, people are seeing huge increases in water, sewer and garbage, not to mention doubling and tripling of property taxes. People are faced with runaway inflation when it comes to government services, yet their incomes are stagnant. At some point, everybody will have no choice but to default not just on bills but taxes too, not unlike what’s going on in Detroit. Bureaucrats have killed the golden goose.
samantha – my water bill is about $20 for the water. You will have to cite sources.
I am all for making government competitive. Take city water, for example, with two independent water municipalities providing water, letting consumers and taxpayers choose which water company they want to use, their tax dollars funding only their choice. The infrastructure would be owned by an umbrella government, which gets its tax funding not from consumers but from the water municipalities. All those guys leaning on shovels whenever a water main breaks, suddenly disappear. Same thing with utilities. And the police departments. Would police brutality disappear if police departments suddenly find themselves competing with each other, and competing for tax dollars? Charter schools are already a variaton of this concept. So are some utilities, such as telephone service. Take the idea all the way to Washington. The usual suspects will scream and complain, saying it cannot be done, but with determination anything is possible, and certainly far better than anything we have now. Competition has a way with keeping folks honest, checking their greed.
samantha – when I was living in the City of Peoria, AZ there was a minor mishap with the water system that was privately owned. The City decided that they should take the water delivery over and use eminent domain to buy out the owners of the water company. The citizens of the city pitch a fit, so the water company is still private. However, where I live now, the water is supplied by the town along with sewer and garbage collection. I will say the garbage collection is superb. Bulk collection once a month, a central depository for harmful product disposal, etc.
” I think schools should be supported by a consumption tax, not property taxes.”
Consumption tax or user fees?
And if it works for education why not for the entire government. All we need is an accounts receivable department for DOD and DOJ so each citizen can pay for the amount of defense and law enforcement he uses.
But then it gets confusing. Do the rest of us have to pay to have DOJ prosecute the crooks, or does the crook have to pay for the attorneys presenting the case against him?
Government is so complicated.
bfm – I have suggested several times that we have check-off for what we would like our tax dollars to go to. For example, you could check off National Defense, CIA, NSA or Food Stamps, Section 8, etc.
Lee, You never answered my specific suggestion of giving people a tax holiday while their kids are in school and letting them pay for the school of their choice and then resuming property taxes when they graduate. It’s another way to state a voucher.
Paul, When I say I don’t believe creationism should be taught I’m referring to the more classical creationism where God makes Adam etc… As for creating the Universe? I’m not smart enough to know how that happened and either is science at this point. Now, I may believe that a God kicked it all into motion but I still don’t think that should be taught unless it shown as only one of many hypothesis. I always believed that one of the issues here is that we just can’t imagine something coming from nothing. Similarly, we really can’t understand a forth dimension and in reality we can’t understand 1 or 2 dimensions either since we live in a third dimension world. If you haven’t read “Flatland” I highly recommend it.
http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/eaa/FL.HTM
Hawkins had a chapter in his “Brief History of Time” book I believe titled “Black Holes Ain’t So Black”. In it he say’s something about matter and anti-matter spontaneously existing just outside of the event horizon of a black hole and if one or the other happens to fall on the other side of the event horizon it gets sucked in living it’s partner to be observed. This has always stuck in my head since it is still a question to me about the “spontaneous” part. What is going on there?
Jim22 – the problem is that many scientists cannot deal with the Uncaused Cause. They cannot overcome it, so they do not want to have to face it. And their way of not facing it is to ridicule all creationists theories. However, to not deal with it is to be intellectually dishonest.
” the problem is that many scientists cannot deal with the Uncaused Cause. They cannot overcome it, so they do not want to have to face it. And their way of not facing it is to ridicule all creationists theories. However, to not deal with it is to be intellectually dishonest.”
Not all questions are scientific questions. Aside from speculation on what might account for or come before the big bang, I am not sure there is any data currently available that would allow for scientific analysis of an uncaused cause.
If you cannot specify an object that you claim is an uncaused cause and tests that would confirm or reject that cause as being uncaused then maybe that subject is not ripe for scientific investigation.
That does not mean the phenomenon is not there, just that what ever you think you know is not susceptible to scientific analysis.
Maybe you need to gather some more anecdotal evidence that could be used to build a testable hypothesis.
bfm – the question of the Uncaused Cause was settled in the Medieval Period, actually before. It has not been disproved.
I have already replied to where I stand on your position. Paying taxes is not stealing property. (Yes there are many issues with taxes, wasted dollars etc) it is for the common good so that we have roads, bridges, safety nets, schooling, etc. We obviously will never come to agreement and nothing wrong with civil disagreements. ((*_*)) That’s what makes this kind of forum well worth the time.
Lee, I think we are just going to disagree on this one. But what is wrong with this?
“But fine, then how about when my kids are of school age I don’t have to pay school taxes but instead pay for where they go private or parochial and then after they graduate the the govt. can return to stealing my property again?”
Nick, What? You don’t feel like you should have to pay for other peoples life choices like getting married, having kids or owning a house? What is wrong with you?
Because Jim you are paying for the society and what it becomes via the educating of our children. If I had had kids and paid to send them to private school I would (maybe begrudgingly) pay my school taxes because, again, those kids in the public schools will be my kids and grandkids doctors, engineers, architects, in other words the people who will be responsible for my safety and the safety of the next and the next generation.