Former Democratic Party head Howard Dean has caused a controversy with his remarks on Wednesday criticizing people who call the murderers in Paris “Muslim terrorists.” Dean certainly makes a strong point when he says “They’re about as Muslim as I am,” he said. “I mean, they have no respect for anybody else’s life, that’s not what the Koran says.” It is easy to forget that most Muslims are as appalled and outraged as non-Muslims by these horrific crimes. However, I do not agree that we have to adopt another verboten term. The fact is the “Muslim extremist” or “Muslim terrorist” refer to the motivation and self-identity of the killers not their adherence to the proper reading of Islam. I have used it in publication as the most accurate descriptive term for those committing these atrocities.
While Dean is getting a lot of heat over this, I think that this is a fair point to raise, even if you reject the suggestion.
Here is the exchange:
HOWARD DEAN: You know, this is a chronic problem. I stopped calling these people Muslim terrorists. They’re about as Muslim as I am. I mean, they have no respect for anybody else’s life, that’s not what the Koran says. Europe has an enormous radical problem. I think ISIS is a cult. Not an Islamic cult. I think it’s a cult.
BRZEZINSKI: Interesting, yeah. Hmm.
DEAN: And I think you got to deal with these people. The interesting thing here, is we talked about guns the last time in regarding the United States, regarding how guns get in the hands of the kind of people that kill the two police officers here two weeks ago.
France has tremendous gun control laws, and yet these people are able to get Kalashnikovs. So, this is really complicated stuff, and I think you have to treat these people as basically mass murderers. But I do not think we should accord them any particular religious respect, because I don’t think, whatever they’re claiming their motivation is, is clearly a twisted, cultish mind.
Obviously, these murderers were motivated by their view of Islam, even yelling “Allahu akbar” as they fired and screaming that they have “avenged” Mohammed for being put into cartoons. Obviously, some Muslims agree with such violent action given the murder of dozens of non-Muslims after the Danish cartoon controversy in 2006.
The fact is that we would refer to Hindu or Christian terrorists if a crime were committed in the name of their faiths. Referring, as Dean suggests, to all such terrorists as “mass murderers” denies specificity in reporting and commentary on these particular criminals. The use of “Muslim” in stories like those coming out of Paris is meant to add specificity and distinction in the description of these terrorists from other terrorists. Unfortunately, we live in a world filled with such individuals of various faiths including stories on “Hindu terrorists” and other faith-based attacks. After all, shouldn’t Guy Fawkes be referred to as a “Catholic terrorist” for his role in the Gunpowder Plot (meant to to blow up the House of Lords over the persecution of Catholics)? Fawkes was motivated by his religion even though most Catholics are appalled at the notion of destroying Parliament.
Dean’s point is still worthy of discussion. There is a danger that these extremists will be taken for representatives of their faith. After all, it was a Muslim police officer who was gunned down begging for his life on the street.
However, that point can be made clear in the context of coverage. Indeed, I often refer to such individuals as “Muslim extremists” to convey not just their motivation but their position on the fringe of their faith. The concern is to add yet another prohibited term added to what seems an ever-lengthening list.
Dean’s comments however do serve to force a legitimate debate over whether it is far to refer to such extremists by their faith. I would be more convinced if the murderers were not expressly acting in the name of their faith and simply happened to be Muslim. It would then be inappropriate in my view to call murderers who acted for other purposes (like personal or economic crimes) by their faith. Yet, here you have extremists who acted clearly in adherence to their own warped view of religion. Notably, the New York Times, USA Today, NPR, and other major publications continue to use the terms “Muslim terrorists” or “Muslim extremists.”
What do you think?
Happy maybe I am missing something but just seemed like a 5 w’s and an H article to me (who what when where why, and how). Thanks for the link
(((((Po))))) From one immigrant to another. Hang in there. I think you and LeeJ crossed wires somewhere, we’re usually all sympatico.
Po maybe I misunderstood to whom you directed the comment but you wrote:
Directing the reply to me:( at least initially) Pogo knows I don’t evade challenges. I said very clearly I have no quarrel with Christianity, and the tit for tat of who is more evil leaves all blind and hurts the feeling of the actual Christians on this blog. Again, a quick search will provide you with plenty of answers.
Actually, my time, I hope, is better spent trying to help islamophobes like you find the light and convert to Islam than to risk getting killed by people who are already too far gone.”
I don’t see your words as humorous or lighthearted but without tone/facial expressions words may come across in a different way then in which they were written/meant
I
Nick
Speaking of caricature…
Since we are speaking truthfully, I ,as well as many others think of you as a buffoon. A brown noser who really has not much intellectually to offer, so you resort to calling names and attacking people.
Wish I cared more for your opinion of me, really do.
I like you though, you make me laugh 🙂
Lee
What happened? What did I do to you? When did I call you an islamophobe?
Is my sense of humor so off that you misunderstanding me?
Didn’t I praise you among the ones i have had civil discussions in the past?
to continue from that Mike here is Rodgers and Hammerstein:
(South Pacific)
You’ve got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You’ve got to be taught
From year to year,
It’s got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You’ve got to be carefully taught.
You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff’rent shade,
You’ve got to be carefully taught.
You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You’ve got to be carefully taught!
As I work away, I also had a chance to watch Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom…There is one statement I wish to leave you all with from Madiba: “People Learn to Hate…they can be taught to love…for Love comes more natural to the human heart…”….
Thanks Prairie Rose so true for many on here. (:
I actually see myself more as Truck, played by Two Ton Tony Galento. Tony would drink a case of beer before a fight.
Nick thinks he is Terry Malloy so it all works out.
Not because he was a fighter. Not because he could have been a contender.
It was because he used to room with Wally Cox.
Nick,
“the only “phobe” leej has in her is a conservaphobe.”
Don’t forget a smiley-wink! She’s not too phobic, or she wouldn’t keep carrying on excellent conversations with folks on the other side of the aisle. 🙂
(that’s leejcobb,people think that a lot though)
Nick ((*_*))
I thought it was LeeJCobb.
http://content8.flixster.com/photo/11/79/06/11790610_ori.jpg
I guess it was all the finger pointing. Just sayn’
leejcaroll is female?
I thought it was the guy who played the head of CIA in “North by Northwest”.
I was impressed by his mental agility at age 125 or whatever he’d be now.
po, the only “phobe” leej has in her is a conservaphobe.
Aridog,
“I do not think the violent jihadists have done much study of the Koran or any Hadiths. I’d bet you right now that is one of the things I discover…or re-discover if you will. Terrorism was and always will be about power, first and the rest is excuse made from less than whole cloth.”
Malala Yousafzai hints at this in her book I Am Malala:
“In our valley we received most of our information from the radio because so many had no TV or are illiterate. Soon everyone seemed to be talking about the radio station. It became known as Mullah FM and Fazlullah as the Radio Mullah. It broadcast every night from eight to ten and again in the morning from seven to nine.
In the beginning Fazlullah was very wise. He introduced himself as an Islamic reformer and an interpreter of the Quran. My mother is very devout, and to start with she liked Fazlullah. He used his station to encourage people to adopt good habits and abandon practices he said were bad. He said men should keep their beards but give up smoking and using the tobacco they liked to chew. He said people should stop using heroin, and chars, which is our word for hashish. He told people the correct way to do their ablutions for prayers – which body part to wash first. He even told people how they should wash their private parts.
Sometimes his voice was reasonable, like when adults are trying to persuade you to do something you don’t want to, and sometimes it was scary and full of fire. Often he would weep as he spoke of his love for Islam Usually he spoke for a while, then his deputy Shah Douran came on air, a man who used to sell snacks from a tricycle in the bazaar. They warned people to stop listening to music, watching movies and dancing. Sinful acts like these had caused the earthquake, Fazlullah thundered, and if people didn’t stop they would again invite the wrath of God.
Mullahs often misinterpret the Quran and Hadith when they teach them in our country as few people understand the original Arabic. Fazlullah exploited this ignorance.
…One day my father went to visit a friend in hospital and found lots of patients listening to cassettes of Fazlullah’s sermons. ‘You must meet Maulana Fazlullah,’ people told him. ‘He’s a great scholar’.
‘He’s actually a high-school dropout whose real name isn’t even Fazlullah,’ my father retorted, but they wouldn’t listen. My father became depressed because people had begun to embrace Fazlullah’s words and his religious romanticism. ‘It’s ridiculous,’ my father would say, ‘that this so-called scholar is spreading ignorance.'”
https://archive.org/stream/IAmMalalaPDFBookByMalalaGrowPK.com/I-am-Malala-PDF-book-by-Malala-GrowPK.com__djvu.txt
Interestingly, and sadly, her book has been banned by some in Pakistan:
“The autobiography of the Pakistani schoolgirl shot by the Taliban, Malala Yousafzai, has been banned by Pakistan’s private school association.”
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/is-islam-so-weak-that-malalas-book-has-to-be-banned-in-pakistans-schools/
po, You are becoming a caricature. You are capable of better. Maybe it is time for bed, as you suggest. There are other people debating the issues on other good threads. You are quickly making yourself irrelevant. And, I am serious when I say, that’s a shame.
Chip S.
Chip, should we then all hail the Muslim hero who saved the people at the kosher market?
Um…obviously yes?
Your reliance on straw men has become pathetic.
————————————-
Yep, said the straw king! Watch your comments, might not do well when your pants catch on fire.
leejcaroll
Po wrote: Lee, I never said I wanted more people to come to Islam. I do not care actually.
However you write on 1/8 at :!.8 11:41 (so you can find it): Actually, my time, I hope, is better spent trying to help islamophobes like you find the light and convert to Islam than to risk getting killed by people who are already too far gone.
————————————————–
Lee
Here is the full content of that post. It is obvious with the tone of it and the smiley face that I was kidding. I have made the same joke before where I wished some people to become Muslim as way of teasing them.
I have also joked about walking Nick and Chip on the plank at the point of my sword.
Again, just kidding!
“Come on Chip, some honesty here. I answered every single point you made, even the sisi one. You have yet to answer any of mine. Why, scared I may pick it apart? I’ll be gentle, I promise 🙂
Whatever point I made here can be easily documented online with a 10 second search. Most of them I have made here before. But, they are general knowledge stuff that anyone slightly open to the outside world knows about.
Pogo knows I don’t evade challenges. I said very clearly I have no quarrel with Christianity, and the tit for tat of who is more evil leaves all blind and hurts the feeling of the actual Christians on this blog. Again, a quick search will provide you with plenty of answers.
Actually, my time, I hope, is better spent trying to help islamophobes like you find the light and convert to Islam than to risk getting killed by people who are already too far gone.
Are you gonna answer any of my points above?
Are you Pogo?
Come on guys, play along, otherwise I am going to bed.”
Po I am not an islamophone as you wrote in your reply to me. In fact I wrote upthread: “: Maybe we all need to really learn about Islam rather then believe the information we tend to get from either the terrorists or those who don’t know the religion or the Qu”arn but state what it says, according to them, anyway.
I also posted quotations from the Bible where I said the Bible is equally rife with passages that are seen to be calling for murder.
You want so much for people to be iuslamophobic so you can call them out that you seem not to bother with what they actually have written,.
@leejcarol: I hope my comments will help you and others in this quest. Appreciate everyone’s zeal and passion–and let’s remember a sense of brotherhood among st us all…..
Lee
You have made a point to discriminate in your comments, as have others, but the facts are the facts. I have no need to be a victim, whatever I claimed is easily provable. by here I mean this blog, not specifically this thread.
You and i have contributed on the same threads where I have been called anitsemite, several times. Shouldn’t be too hard easier to find.
This has been my main point all along, yet seems like some of us refuse to hear it.
“I am fine with calling anyone whom they are. If we can refer to race as a descriptive, we can use other identity markers. All am saying is that let’s make it even handed and fair.”