This week, I appeared on the CNN special addressing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) in Indiana. While I have been a long-standing supporter of same-sex marriage, I raised concerns over the dismissive treatment of religious concerns over the scope of anti-discrimination laws and how they may curtail free exercise of religion. I have previously written both columns and academic work on this collision between the two areas of law. In the program, I raised an example of the growing conflicts that we discussed earlier on this blog of a bakery that refused to make a cake deemed insulting to homosexuals while other bakers are objecting to symbols that they view as insulting to their religious views. This issue also came up with an advocate for LGBT rights on the show:
On the show, Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, appeared and gave an excellent case for those opposing this law. The HRC does very good legal work and has a distinguished history advocating LBGT rights. I however was most interested in one exchange with host Christ Cuomo:
Cuomo: Now, Sarah, you’re going to hear people flip this analogy on you and say, “Well, wait a minute, if this were a Jewish baker and some KKK couple came in and said, “We want you to make a cake.” If he said no, well than how would you feel about the situation?
Warbelow: Well, most of these business owners really are providing cakes across the board, but there are a select few who are choosing to discriminate. And there’s a huge difference between having to write something objectionable on a cake and being asked to provide a cake for a same sex couple.
The exchange was interesting between Warbelow seems to suggest that bakers should be able to refuse “something objectionable on a cake” but insists that bakers cannot refuse to make cakes that they find objectionable for same-sex couples. For some religious bakers, a cake with a same-sex image or language is objectionable.
My point is only that we are brushing aside a difficult and unresolved question of where to draw this line. We are all so eager to show (as I did above) that we support homosexual rights and/or same sex marriage, that there is little frank discussion of the obvious conflict with free exercise and free speech. There is also a limited discussion of the difference between certain forms of expressive arts like photography or baking as opposed to less expressions forms like diners or transportation businesses. For example, there does seem a meaningful distinction between serving a gay couple at a diner and a photographer who is asked to participate in a same-sex marriage and celebration in recording the event and arranging photo settings. That does not mean that we would not reach the same conclusion, but we are not having this debate.
I have struggled with this collision between anti-discrimination laws and free speech/free exercise for many years. I still remain uncertain on whether to draw this line between the two cakes that I described. We should have an answer for those citizens who are raising these concerns rather than dismiss them all as bigots. If the HRC is saying that bakers can refuse to make objectionable cakes, we should have a better understanding of when such objections are deemed legitimate and protected. Free speech and free exercise are rights that require bright line rules to avoid the chilling effect of possible criminal or civil liability. We need to be able to explain why the refusal to make one of these cakes is an unlawful form of bigotry and why the other is a permissible form of free speech.
What do you think?
@Nicks
Darn, am I psychic or not! ROTFLMAO!!!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Anyone who applauds Muslim countries for imprisoning, flogging, and executing gays is a psychopath, IMO.
Apple CEO Tim Cook, a gay man who recently criticized Indiana’s passage of the RFRA law, is eagerly growing Apple’s business by expansion in Muslim countries that execute gay men. Such a hypocrite!
@NickS
Good for you NickS! That is what real tolerance and respect for other peoples’ opinions looks like. So much better than all the fake tolerance.
I am thinking your favorite cultist is probably breaking dishes and stomping her feet right now. After a little squalling and holding her breath until she turns blue, and after she emerges from the fetal position, she will probably return and try to pretend this never happened.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Spinelli, don’t reveal too much about yourself and marijauna may help you. Maybe it’ll help Squeeky too, lol.
trooperyork – “Can I have what you are smoking Jim22. It must be some good stuff. Do you live in Colorado?”
My sarcasm must have not been understood. I would have thought it obvious from my other posts.
DBQ, I kicked in @ GoFundMe and it felt real good. Gee, I hope that doesn’t make me a bigot. Here’s the thing. If I were a baker, caterer, etc. I would serve @ a gay wedding. I simply have empathy for good people who have religious objections. You can’t teach empathy. You can teach respect.
Here’s the thing about borderline personality disorder. They desperately need drama, 24/7. If there’s is no conflict or drama, they will create it. They are a black hole of needy. They are friendless and a burden on families. Now, if there is a natural conflict, they will get manic and hyperbolic, because normal conflict is not enough.
@Ingannie,
Calling me names does not constitute an adequate response to my comment at 4:03PM above. While I am tremendously impressed that you read Yelp (not!), the point is that you did not read your own link, or the comment calling attention to your mistake.
Why don’t you just go ahead and fess up, and quit digging yourself into a deeper hole??? 🙂
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Anyone who applauds Muslim countries for imprisoning, flogging, and executing gays is a psychopath, IMO.
“a psychopathic woman. This person reminds me of you.”
See?
A hater, an anti-Christian relentless mean person.
Also another logical fallacy: ad hominem.
“Many many many people who didn’t vote for Obama came out against these RFRA laws. ”
“Argumentum ad majorem”, also ‘argumentum ad populum’:
…”is the logical fallacy that just because something is popular, it is therefore true (or desirable).“
Squeeky, I read Yelp, and lots of review sites online. I love estate sales. I’ve found soooo much info on one particular estate sales business that has numerous descriptions of a psychopathic woman. This person reminds me of you.
@KarenS
One of the bright spots in this all this foolishness is that even people like you, who support gay marriage, are considering that forcing people to participate in it is going too far.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Memories Pizza now has over $221,000 in the Go Fund Me account.
🙂
@Ingannie
Bullsh*t, Ingannie. At 3:54 PM above, you said, “Every single one of my citations supports my argument, Squeeky you got nothing. Sore loser.”
Sooo, lets go to 2:51 PM above:
Hmmm., and what does that article, from the Baptist Joint Committee say???
Sooo, not only do you not even read your own links, you don’t even bother to adequately read the comments which point out your mistakes. You are a faker, and a phony, and you have no credibility whatsoever. That is very sad, and you should really address whatever personal problems and failings underlie this condition.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Why would I admidt to hating Christians, when I dont? Max and HappyPappies are self described Christians and they are not for discrimination against homosexuals. They are good examples of true Christianity. You are a FAKE Squeeky.
It is irrelevant that some religious groups do not support this bill. That is because there is a wide range of religions. There is a distinction between serving all people in a restaurant, and being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that you do not believe in, that completely escapes many people.
I see that some people still do not understand Professor Turley’s remark that this is a very difficult issue of which we should discuss and debate. I still think we should calmly discuss all sides and concerns, but clearly that’s not going to happen on this thread. I think Haz is on to something. I support gay marriage, but I have concerns about forcing people who don’t to participate in the ceremony itself.
There are laws in MI, MS, and FL against unmarried people cohabitating that has remained on the books since the 1800s. No one has gotten around to changing it yet, apparently. Is there a war against unmarried roommates in those states? You would think so, if today’s rhetoric applies.
Oh, and Nick, I was hoping very much that there would be some explanation for the crash into the Alps that would not involve the copilot committing mass murder suicide. But it appears your instincts were dead on. I wondered why authorities stated so quickly and with such confidence that this was deliberate. It turns out that a search of the copilot’s residence turned up his tablet, where he searched for difference suicide methods and cockpit door security. Barring some really convoluted coincidences, this appears to be a mass murder suicide. I waited until I was sure and now I am. Chilling. Isn’t that what people say when they criticize the TSA for taking away pocket knives or nail clippers from the pilot? That if the pilot wants to kill everyone they’re just doomed, regardless of whether he has nail clippers? He doesn’t need a box cutter to get into the cockpit.
Every single one of my citations supports my argument, Squeeky you got nothing. Sore loser.
@Ingannie
1. The schtick is being wielded by YOU. You are the faker who doesn’t even read her own links. At least I admit to being disgusted by gay males and sodomy. Why don’t you go ahead and admit to hating Christians and Christianity? Everybody here already knows it anyway.
2. Who is sore??? I expected this. Because I understand the way the battle is being fought, and how it is probably going to end badly for America. Not because of gay marriage, or forced cake-baking and compulsory flower arranging. Those things are trivialities. The real danger is the way those scams are being run, and the ease with which the victories are being achieved.
You are just one of the termites eating away at the foundations of civilization.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Many many many people who didn’t vote for Obama came out against these RFRA laws. Extremists are losing ground.