This week, I appeared on the CNN special addressing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) in Indiana. While I have been a long-standing supporter of same-sex marriage, I raised concerns over the dismissive treatment of religious concerns over the scope of anti-discrimination laws and how they may curtail free exercise of religion. I have previously written both columns and academic work on this collision between the two areas of law. In the program, I raised an example of the growing conflicts that we discussed earlier on this blog of a bakery that refused to make a cake deemed insulting to homosexuals while other bakers are objecting to symbols that they view as insulting to their religious views. This issue also came up with an advocate for LGBT rights on the show:
On the show, Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, appeared and gave an excellent case for those opposing this law. The HRC does very good legal work and has a distinguished history advocating LBGT rights. I however was most interested in one exchange with host Christ Cuomo:
Cuomo: Now, Sarah, you’re going to hear people flip this analogy on you and say, “Well, wait a minute, if this were a Jewish baker and some KKK couple came in and said, “We want you to make a cake.” If he said no, well than how would you feel about the situation?
Warbelow: Well, most of these business owners really are providing cakes across the board, but there are a select few who are choosing to discriminate. And there’s a huge difference between having to write something objectionable on a cake and being asked to provide a cake for a same sex couple.
The exchange was interesting between Warbelow seems to suggest that bakers should be able to refuse “something objectionable on a cake” but insists that bakers cannot refuse to make cakes that they find objectionable for same-sex couples. For some religious bakers, a cake with a same-sex image or language is objectionable.
My point is only that we are brushing aside a difficult and unresolved question of where to draw this line. We are all so eager to show (as I did above) that we support homosexual rights and/or same sex marriage, that there is little frank discussion of the obvious conflict with free exercise and free speech. There is also a limited discussion of the difference between certain forms of expressive arts like photography or baking as opposed to less expressions forms like diners or transportation businesses. For example, there does seem a meaningful distinction between serving a gay couple at a diner and a photographer who is asked to participate in a same-sex marriage and celebration in recording the event and arranging photo settings. That does not mean that we would not reach the same conclusion, but we are not having this debate.
I have struggled with this collision between anti-discrimination laws and free speech/free exercise for many years. I still remain uncertain on whether to draw this line between the two cakes that I described. We should have an answer for those citizens who are raising these concerns rather than dismiss them all as bigots. If the HRC is saying that bakers can refuse to make objectionable cakes, we should have a better understanding of when such objections are deemed legitimate and protected. Free speech and free exercise are rights that require bright line rules to avoid the chilling effect of possible criminal or civil liability. We need to be able to explain why the refusal to make one of these cakes is an unlawful form of bigotry and why the other is a permissible form of free speech.
What do you think?
Nick
I’m trying. Truly, I am.
Music, it is claimed, may serve as a unifying force. . . 🙂
@NickS
LOL on the French kissing! Oh, my guitar playing is coming along. I could probably earn $10 or $20 a day busking if I tried. More if I wore a short skirt, and showed some cleavage, but that would be cheating!
On guitar, I am really having trouble with the Bm chord, because about 1/3 of the time my fingers flop into the wrong places, and muffle the strings. Which really sucks if you are playing Wicked Game, which is just 3 chords, over and over and over, being, Bm, then A, then E, then back to Bm. If you capo it at the second fret, then you can play Am. G, and D, and theoretically it should sound almost the same, and OK, but it just doesn’t sound right, which is a “voicing” problem. But I keep practicing and just play for myself, and maybe friends who come over. Sometimes they can even recognize the songs! 🙂
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
My sarcasm about your sarcasm also didn’t work. It was just a joke. I know what you mean.
The politicians are running for the hills. Just as you would expect. It remains to be seen what they will do when they come for the churches.
You’re a great new addition, bam bam. I hope you stick around.
bam bam, “I don’t speak French, but I like to kiss that way.” Lt. Frank Drebin
@bam bam
Oh, I love that song! Here is one just for you, which is kind of like your name. Padam Padam is sort of like “thump thump” or “bam bam” and is the sound your heart makes! The singer is Russian, and does some really great songs.,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_x5rAEVL4
Here is a rough translation, because I do not speak French:
Oh plus, maybe you should check out a guy named Rover. He sings in English and French.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
I need to be obtuse, like a smart religious baker should be, Squeeky. Think of Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie is now solo because Clyde is, for unknown reasons, not commenting of late. The 2 have ganged up on you in the past. Clyde is a hardcore atheist and barrister. And I’ve been meaning to ask, how is the guitar coming along?
@NickS
Thank you NickS for saying that. I am just having fun with her. I haven’t used my Big Gun of Persuasion yet on her, which —and I am swearing you to secrecy on this—is to say, “Ingannie, just think of all the attention you will get if you break down, confess, and ask for help!”
Anyway, keep that quiet. Meantime, who or what is a “Clyde”???
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Can’t we all just get along?
How about a strangely inappropriate French love song to change the tone here?
No one does it better than Lara Fabian. Listen and enjoy, and then go back to calling one another names.
Squeeky, You have many friends and allies here. You are smart, funny, irreverent, and simply fun to banter w/. That, dear woman, is your BEST revenge, being happy and having friends. With Clyde on “sabbatical” it is lonely for the sad one.
@Ingannie
No. You are probably going to need a lot of introspection. But, the first step is just to admit that you didn’t even read your own link, or the comment calling your attention to that mistake. Then, you can move on to the deeper issues like why you hate Christians and Christianity, and why you feel the need to pretend that you are engaging in honest discussions, when you are really just faking it. But you can do it! Just take that first step. . .
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
@NickS
True. While it is a great symbolic victory for the Gaystapo, it doesn’t change reality very much. At the end of the day, they are still gay, and they still have a 20% rate of HIV. There will probably be a lot celebratory sodomy tonight, and just like the Shades of Gray babies expected in November, there will probably be an increase in guys infected with HIV in the next 6 months or so.
Meanwhile have you noticed the silly antics of a certain person here, who is trying to pretend she wasn’t slam dunked through the hoop, and is still stuck, upside down in the basket??? 🙂
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky, Do you see how ignoring works. Stay focused, talk w/ me, DBQ, Karen, HAZ, Paul, Trooper, Jim, and all the other normal people. We just need to talk amongst ourselves. It works wonders.
Oh my Squeeky a little introspection might be in order. While this was interesting, there is no longer any purpose in debate on this issue with you.
Paul
Yes it is. However, since the term “art” has been used to justify offending Christianity, I don’t see why the same term “art” can’t be used to defend it.
http://i.imgflip.com/7xpxr.jpg
@Ingannie,
Even gloating and doing the happy dance (or is it just stomping your feet as I said above?) does not constitute an adequate response to my comment at 4:03PM above. While I glad that you are happy, I somehow feel that you are trying to get my goat just to avoid addressing the fact that you do not read your own links, or comments pointing out your mistake.
Why don’t you quit trying to distract me and others, and just go ahead and fess up. You are only making yourself look more foolish.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky, While I think gay marriage is silly, I am a businessman. I don’t believe in organized religion but have great respect for those who do. So, as a businessman, I would do the wedding unless they were a-holes. Then, I would be obtuse and respectfully decline. But, I would decline a-hole clients of any stripe, color, etc. I do it all the time as a PI. Chrissake, if you have a religious objection and don’t want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, just keep your mouth shut and say you’re booked. That IS what is going to happen. It IS what is happening right now. But, if you have a religious objection and don’t want to use guile, I will back you up on First Amendment grounds. And there will be many attorneys willing to take that case pro bono, defending a righteous businessman. Good attorneys always want a SCOTUS winner. And, that case is a winner.
Nick – I would bake the cake, deliver it and dance with the bride. However, I will defend any baker who does not want to on religious grounds.
Spinelli, that’s really a very unkind thing you are trying to say about Squeeky. Truly rude. You owe her an apology. If I were JT, I would delete that slur against Squeeky.
In the popular culture, Livia Soprano is a great example of borderline personality disorder. Dr. Melfi tried to show Tony just how evil his mother was. Livia always had to be the center of attention. She manipulated, conned, lied, etc. She manipulated her brother-in-law[Junior] to try and kill her own son[Ton]. She was a burden on her children. Livia had no friends and while preying on people, always tried to make herself the victim. While we know the GERMAN pilot was manic depressive, I think we’ll find he also was borderline personality as well. He brought down a plane in a final act of narcissistic, “Look @ me!”
Oh my Squeeky, you really are a hoot! Why would I be upset, we won, your side LOST. LOL!