Critics of Indiana’s Religious Freedom Law Are Trying To Have Their Cake and Eat it, Too

Wedding_cake_with_pillar_supports,_2009Below is my Sunday column in the Washington Post on Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA).

The column below raises the question of line drawing and states that I would prefer an absolute rule requiring all services. However, I could not support such a rule if we are going to strip protection from “wrong” views while allowing others to refuse on the ground that other symbols or language are clearly offensive. One variation on the “No Cake For You” approach below was suggested by a colleague who said that we could allow bakers and others to refuse any offensive language — religious or non-religious — unless the government could show that the baker would have sold the cake but for the status of the prospective buyer (e.g., gay or straight, Jewish or not, etc.). Thus, as long as the basis of the refusal was the actual language or symbols, it would be protected as an expressive act.

As I say in the column, I continue to struggle with drawing this line. None of the options are particularly satisfying. However, I do think that we have to have a real dialogue on this issue free of low-grade efforts to those on the other side as bigoted for wanting to discuss the range of free speech conflicts. The point is that, when dealing with the question of the right to refuse to create offensive symbols or language, one must address the fact that there are a wide array of such conflicts that can arise among different religious, cultural, or political groups. One does not have to agree with their speech to raise the question of their right to engage in such speech. Indeed, the first amendment is designed to protect unpopular speech. We do not need it to protect popular speech. Some may ultimately decided that no business can refuse any message under the “Let Them Eat Cake” approach despite rulings like Hobby Lobby and Citizens United. However, the first step is to have the debate, preferably free of personal attacks or attempts to silence those who would raise the speech of other unpopular or offensive groups.

Here is the column:

Within minutes of the signing of Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), a chorus of condemnation arose across the country that threw Indiana Governor Mike Pence and his colleagues back on their heels. The response was understandable, though somewhat belated. After all, both Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama supported similar language that is found not only in federal law but the laws of 19 other states. While broader than most of these laws, the premise of the Indiana law was the same: citizens could raise religious beliefs as a defense to governmental obligations or prohibitions.

For those of us who have been warning for years about the collision of anti-discrimination laws and religious beliefs, the current controversy was a welcomed opportunity to have this long-avoided debate. Yet, we are still not having that debate. Instead, there is a collective agreement that discrimination is wrong without addressing the difficult questions of where to draw the line between the ban on discrimination and the right to free speech and free exercise. That includes the question of why only religious speech should be protected in such conflicts, as noted in the column. Yet, there is a reluctance of acknowledge good faith concerns among religious people in fear of being viewed as bigoted.

There has been a great deal of heated rhetoric in this discussion that avoids many of the more difficult questions. For example there is the common criticism that these bakers cannot assert their religious beliefs when it is really their business that is being required to take certain actions. However, last year, the Supreme Court in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. expressly found that such businesses do have religious rights (as they do speech rights, as recognized in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission). In 2014, the Court ruled that “no conceivable definition of the term includes natural persons and nonprofit corporations, but not for-profit corporations.” Likewise, despite arguments that the federal RFRA is narrower because it references only conflicts with the government (and not other private parties in the Indiana law), some courts have ruled that it can be used in civil litigation.

As expected, the response of some commentators was to condemn even raising these question of free speech by saying that it saying that it equates gay couples to the KKK or Nazi sympathizers. Even when admitting that they do not have an answer for the free speech question, the attack is on the raising of such questions. There are legitimate concerns over allowing businesses to refuse to prepare products deemed offensive due to symbols or language, but we cannot really address these issues if people are denounced for just raising the conflicts and discussing conflicts. It results in a circular position that we can discuss the question of the protection of offensive speech but not if the question is offensive to discuss. This is an unfortunate trend where difficult questions are avoided by attacking those raising them as presumptive racists or homophobes etc for even raising different types of speech or views. It is a rather odd position to be placed in given my writings for decades supporting gay rights and same sex marriage. More importantly, when discussing the limits of free speech, one necessarily discusses the broad spectrum of free speech examples, including offensive speech. There is not an effort to equate gay marriage symbols or language with anti-Semitimic symbols or language. Obviously, as a supporter of same-sex marriage, I reject that notion. However, the point is that some people hold opposing views from my own. Some of those views I find deeply offensive. If we want to discuss the growing limitations on speech, we need to explore the spectrum of different forms of speech. That is what CNN did in the interview when raising the “KKK cake.” CNN was not saying that such a view is equally valid on the merits. It is ridiculous to say that, by discussing what different people consider offensive, we are saying that all of those views are valid or correct. It is not enough to say that such people are simply wrong or there is clearly a difference in the “real” offensiveness of the messages. Indeed, in some ways, such critics are answering the question by saying that some views are simply not viable because they are wrong. That is saying that society will draw the line on what speech can be the basis for refusing services and what cannot be such a basis.

After all the heated rhetoric over Indiana’s controversial religious freedom law, this rights debate could ultimately come down to a cake war. Just as diners were at the epicenter of the fight over racial desegregation, bakeries have become a flashpoint today.

Conservatives in Indiana and elsewhere have objected to bakers (and florists and photographers) being “forced by the government to participate in a homosexual wedding.” While those conservatives have been rightly ridiculed for failing to explain how the Indiana law as originally formulated would not license bigotry, critics can be equally chastised for failing to explain where to draw the line between religious freedom and discrimination. Asked on CNN this week whether a Jewish baker should have to make a cake for a KKK couple, Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, insisted that “there’s a huge difference between having to write something objectionable on a cake and being asked to provide a cake for a same sex couple.”

Of course, for some religious bakers, a cake with language or an image celebrating same-sex marriage is objectionable. In other words, critics may be trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

Consider two cases that both happen to involve bakeries in or near Denver, Colo. In July 2012, David Mullins and Charlie Craig visited Masterpiece Cakeshop to order a wedding cake. Owner Jack Phillips said that, due to his Christian beliefs, he could not provide a cake for the celebration of a same-sex marriage. Colorado’s Civil Rights Commission ultimately ruled that the bakery broke the state’s anti-discrimination laws.

Now, the flip side. In March 2014, Christian customer Bill Jack asked Azucar Bakery to prepare two cakes in the shape of Bibles — with an X over the image of two men holding hands. Owner Marjorie Silva said she would make the cakes but refused to include what she found to be an offensive message. Jack filed a religious discrimination claim that’s now pending with the state’s civil rights division.

Two sets of cakes. Two different sentiments viewed as offensive. Can we compel the baker in one case and permit the other to refuse? And should the right to refuse be limited to religious objections? There are an array of messages that offend non-religious persons or violate non-religious values. Glibly saying that you cannot discriminate ignores legitimate questions of forced speech and forced participation.

I’ve struggled with the tension between anti-discrimination laws and free speech/free exercise for years, and I see three basic approaches to resolving it:

Let them eat cake. As one option, we could maintain a strict neutrality rule that requires businesses to serve all customers, even when they find customers or their requests (whether involving cakes or flowers or photographs) to be offensive. If you choose to go into a particular business, you lose the ability to withhold services based on the content of messages or the specific attributes of an event. That would mean a bakery couldn’t refuse to inscribe an anti-gay message on a cake — or a birthday message to someone named Adolf Hitler Campbell (which a New Jersey ShopRite said no to a few years ago). Under this approach, a cake would be viewed as a form of speech of the customer, not the baker.

No cake for you. The second possibility is an absolute discretionary rule that allows businesses to decline services or products when they substantially burden religious values. This could lead to a significant rollback of this country’s progress since desegregation. Even the sponsors of the Indiana law have indicated that they do not want such a broad rule.

Speech-free cake. A third option would be to allow a limited exception for expressive services or products. Under this approach, a bakery could not refuse to sell basic cakes to anyone but it could refuse to customize cakes with objectionable symbols or words. A florist could not refuse to supply standard flower arrangements from a pre-set menu but could object to designing and styling, say, the venue of a same-sex event. Likewise, photographers — whose work is inherently expressive, as they select particular moments to capture, frame compositions and create a product tailored to specific clients — could claim an expressive exception in declining to work at events they find offensive.

Frankly, none of these options is entirely satisfying, and all three would lead to tough cases on the margins. For instance, the uniformity and clarity of the “let them eat cake” approach is appealing. Yet it’s hard to imagine compelling Jewish bakers to make Nazi cakes or African American bakers to make KKK cakes. On the other hand, if we allow for expressive exceptions, we’ll have to determine whether or not a funeral director, say, is engaged in an expressive act.

If we are unwilling to impose an absolute rule of service regardless of content, then we need to be honest about our reservations and look more closely at how to allow people to opt out of certain expressive services. If people can decline offensive services, we need to focus our attention on defining those services that are inherently expressive and those that are not. We need to discuss not the central issue of discrimination but those cases on the margins that deal with legitimate speech. As Benjamin Franklin noted, “a great empire, like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges.”

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University.

561 thoughts on “Critics of Indiana’s Religious Freedom Law Are Trying To Have Their Cake and Eat it, Too”

  1. happypappies
    Try being a triple Virgo…
    House, sun sign, rising in.

    I have really good days countered with crappy ones…
    And, I noticed a seven year cycle of tragedy.

  2. p.s.
    happypappies,
    I traditionally spell them EVILgelicals, for a reason.

  3. happypappies,
    The decline in the churches has come at the expense of the evangelical movement. It fractured so many foundational churches that were stuck in their ways, dating back decades. The advent of the evangelical was about picking up the ‘wayward’ souls that left the ‘church’. They preyed upon the gullible willing to find themselves in another preacher’s approval. I fell from the RCC because they insisted on punishing me for who I am. I came out pre-aids and was tossed out. Just before I came out I was thinking of becoming a Priest. But nope… So I sought Billy Graham. Until I came out to myself and accepted who I am. When I came out to my parents, they stopped talking to me for two decades. Both the church and my family abandoned me… I can’t think that another child/youth that have to face such abandonment should have to in the 21st Century, however as long as there are religions willing to place their LGBT children upon their alters as some sacrificial lamb, I have to wonder, to what gawd?

    Peace.

    1. Max-1 – you should have come out in my family. You mother would have sent you to counseling but your siblings could have cared less. 😉

  4. What prayer and Bible reading in school – I have been married 4 times and every one of my husbands wanted a variant – what a freaking hypocrite. He probably walks around with a d—o stuck up his rear end all day long turned on high with florescent lights.

    It puts me in mind of that movie that was shown on Fox Killing Jesus. When the men circle the accused Adulteress and she cringed they were so ugly and full of hate. It is just like now on the Gays. The exact same thing only you know all those that hate the Gays are probably secret Porno Kings and Adulterer

    Did the Message about Hypocrisy not get through certain Peoples thick skulls

  5. happypappies

    Things Jesus never said:
    … Give me your money.
    … Stop persecuting me, I’m dying up here.
    … gays.

    1. Max-1 – “Things Jesus reportedly never said:
      … Give me your money.
      … Stop persecuting me, I’m dying up here.
      … gays.”

  6. Teaching the children well… how to hate.
    Teaching the gay children well… they’re hated.
    Just who is Pat saving?

  7. happypappies
    Please let us know if/when they find the person(s) who sent the threats. And let’s just pray it’s sooner than later…

    1. Thanks Max-1 he is some ingrate that is probably from Central Mo a Skinhead or a KKK person no doubt – they are thick as thieves in that area and watch too much reality TV dontcha know.

      Soo, your cross to bear is you really have to be a virgin and just ignore Squeeky as in Father Forgive Her…….

      I was abandoned by my family…….despised and rejected lied about like the woman adulteress but I wasn’t……Lost my Children They didn’t want me back ….My Husband who is in the Vet home now is good. he understands. I am listening to that now. I have a Grand Triune in Water – Pisces Moon – Cancer Jupiter – Saturn Scorpio – and a Royal Yod on my Sun in Gemini from the Mars in Capricorn to Saturn in Scorpio so they can be posited in each others sign of rulership. —– Most people on here think I am crazy and I really don’t care. It cracks me up. I will say something about the law like 2 or 3 days ago and everyone ignores me or it goes over their head regarding this Indiana thing such as the fact that the Hobby Lobby Case would make it possible for the Right to come in here and really take issue here, but by the same token, and this has not been said yet, not really because that law, Religious Freedom and Restoration act Like Appleton pointed out, was actually repealed that propped up Hobby Lobby and now they think they can use a Repealed law.

      Then I will say obsequiously on his thread, “well thank you then Mike for making that clear for us all in plain language.

      But, I am crazy. lol

      So, I know how you must feel. I am sorry for your pain and destroyed life. It is your cross to bear. You truly are a Virgin. Jesus said, let those who have the ears to hear hear it. He meant that you know. I know you do. I have lived without celibate for 12 years myself as this happened to my husband in 2003. I lived the life of Simon of Cyrene until very recently when I allowed Jesus to be my Savior and Surrendered myself. That is when I finally experienced full freedom.

      There is nothing more free than speaking the truth and not being ashamed to do it and only wanting to help other people.

      You are now doing what it is that you are supposed to do. Can you do anything in service to help people like in nursing maybe? I can’t imagine you cloistered but I could imagine you well in that Church you showed me a picture of with the garden

  8. theebl
    LOL…
    Like the owner had no choice in what to say?
    I guess you don’t buy the “PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY” libertarian/conservative motto…

    I’m thinkin’, GURL… you just cost your business by showing off such pride.
    (deadly sins) Yep. They bite… like Karma.

  9. p.s.
    Karen S.
    The need for debate is a scheme to buy more time for bigots to control the issue. LGBT people have been the target of the Christian Conservatives for far too long in this Nation. So, let’s debate the merits of DISCRIMINATION!

    What say you about the value of denying another that which others can have based solely on one’s religion? Which should the law afford protections to? The religion? (CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW) or the citizen and taxpayer?

    1. Max-1

      This is interesting. I do Astrology and we are in Aries right now. It is I Am time when you start something new and Cakes blow up in peoples face. If you have your Mars in Aries or Sun – look out – My risings there so I don’t give a bleep what anyone says about me. Now -see – they will come on and say something about this – well – okay then – Nancy Reagan had Linda Goodwin do Ronnies Chart Every Day of his Presidency and they all do that in the English Royalty to this day. so la de da.

      I would do the Song Planets but you would hate that. lolol – I even taught myself that by ear on my guitar. No lie

  10. Karen S
    I find it ironic that after Professor Turley stated that this issue needs to be debated, and that attacking those who want to talk about business owners’ rights is wrong, that the thread devolved into the very thing he advised against.
    = = =
    Easy to say when you aren’t the object of the animus… Such a kind and caring heart you have, Karen S.

  11. Wadewilliams
    I guess “letting people live the way they want” doesn’t apply to homosexuals.
    = = =
    LOL!
    Try to explain that to… oh never mind. They get it yet refuse to believe.

  12. I laugh because the short sighted aren’t seeing that far into the future where we’ll have to be different religions so as to get any kind of service from the market place… One shop you’ll have to be Hindu, the mext, Muslim, the next, Christian. That, or face being denied services that ought be available to all.

  13. Paul C.
    I don’t care if a girl wants to wear jeans or a boy wants to wear dresses. They just need to use the right bathroom.
    = = =
    Speaking of forcing people against their deeply held convictions…
    A transgender person being forced into a situation that is outside their identity ISN’T forcing someone? Yet, when I ask for accommodation… THAT’S forcing it?

    Oh, that’s right… it’s never when a big “it” does it.

    1. Max-1 – transgenders can go in whichever bathroom they are currently suited for. Besides, an adult is probably going to have to go with them so they don’t get bullied regardless of the bathroom.

  14. Jim22
    I guess I would say that there are people who feel that gay marriage is an equally disgusting message.
    = = =
    Really?

    Bob love Kevin
    Versus
    God HATES f@gz

    Really?

  15. LOL… Biblical Traditional Marriage… One man, one wife, a son who murders your other son and then marries his sister/ape/fruit.

  16. happypappies
    One thing I never got about Genesis, among many other issues in Genesis is:
    Where did Cain’s wife come from?
    If Adam and Eve are first male and female, and their sons Cain and Abel, poor Abel… where did the wife of Cain come from? His sister? Or did he marry a primate? Oh, sorry… that suggests evolution played a role in our existence, after all, we’re talking about Adam and Eve and the story about how the world was created 6000 years ago. So, did he pick her off a tree?

Comments are closed.