There is a new conflict over religious rights in public education in New Jersey where Muslim families demanded an official holiday for Eid al-Adha. The meeting erupted when the school board refused to create such a holiday just six days before Eid al-Adha, which would have required thousands to families to scramble to find accommodations for their children. It also raises the slippery slope of adopting some religious holidays and not others. For example, the Jewish community noted that their families do not have official holidays for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. The confrontations raises the question of why public schools should create religious holidays as opposed to giving students excused absences for such holidays, which New Jersey does.
One Muslim mother is heard declaring that āWeāre going to be the majority soon!ā That comment embodies the very point cited by both supporters and critics. On one hand, the community is calling for the simple recognition of a dominant religious holiday in this community. They insist that community control over schools means that large segments of the population should be accommodated on such question. Moreover, this was not such a controversy, they suggest, when the holidays were Christian.
On the other hand, critics insist that it is not about the majority getting what it wants in terms of elevating their own religious holidays over others. Indeed, the first amendment is designed first and foremost to protect minorities from majoritarian discrimination. There are also the entanglement issues raised by certain religious holidays being favored over others. Unless one adopts the “majority is always right” to impose a favored religion, the school would have to recognize holidays for Christians, Jews, Buddhists and other faiths.
For many of us, it makes better constitutional and practical sense to allow excused absences. Of course, this leaves the issue of “Christmas” holidays. However, those holidays are increasingly disassociated with Christianity and rarely are called “Christmas” holiday. Instead, the holiday comes at the end of the year and is carried through the New Year. Easter holidays are virtually gone and even “Halloween parties” have been reconfigured as “Harvest celebrations” to avoid even attenuated reference to anything religious.
What is interesting is that various leaders including Jewish leaders expressed an interest in adding the holiday for next year. Rabbi Debra Hachen of Jersey City’s Temple Beth-El, the city’s largest Jewish congregation, said “I personally plan to offer my assistance to the Muslim community to bring this up during the school year so that it can be discussed and considered fully in time to be incorporated into next year’s school calendar. Our community is fully in support of religious freedom of expression and understands the desire of our Muslim friends and neighbors to have the schools closed for Eid El-Adha.” It is a position that raises the issue of accommodation of other faiths and whether this is simply a question of the majority religion in a given district.
The controversy in New Jersey is illustrative of a common view that religious freedom means the right to impose religious values supported by the majority. The Kim Davis controversy reflects that same claim of entitlement in an official insisting that she has a right to impose her religious litmus test in carrying out ministerial functions as a clerk. The classic civil libertarian position is that true religious freedom is protected by neutrality by the government. The fear is that this all becomes little more than a muscle play. The insular minorities of yesterday become the dominant majorities of today.
Yet, in fairness to those calling for this holiday, The city has already established this holiday and Diwali as city holidays. Dawali is the Indian festival of lights. One can argue that schools are part of communities and can accommodate and recognize the holidays that are most important to those communities. After all, if the vast majority of students are taking leave for the holidays, it is argued that it makes more sense to simply declare a holiday for everyone.
It is a fascinating line to draw, though from a constitutional standpoint there is always unease in the government enforcing a holiday tied to a particular religion. This has long been the case with Christian holidays but, as discussed above, those official holidays were long contested on separation grounds.
What do you think?
The Kingdom is very bad. But, I would give “the most evil” awards to N. Korea and/or ISIS over Saudi Arabia. A case could be made for a couple more that are more evil, but I’ll leave it there. Make no mistake, The Kingdom is evil, I just take exception w/ “most.”
Let me further reply to Dust Bunny Queen’s reply to my post.
If the USA’s relationship with Israel was based on purely secular reasons (he alleges it’s a net gain to the US), then the relationship would not ever be declared “unbreakable” which means “permanent.” The relationship would cease to exist when it was not a net gain, which is at the minimum open to debate though of course a couple of PhD’s in the their book about Israel proved it’s a net negative. We’re back to ignoring G. Washington’s advice about foreign entanglements. Ignoring George’s advice about foreign relationships is usually bad, including this time.
An example of changing relationships is Iraq: see images of Rumsfeld chumming it up with Saddam, then a few years later we murder Saddam and start the serious business of birthing ISIS, going just as planned today…
Also, it’s noteworthy that Bunny’s advice is the exact reason Barack and others would list for our relationships with the most evil military dictatorships on earth, like the Al Saud family (AKA the “Kingdom” of Saudi Arabia, as if it’s King Arthur’s round table over there) and Egypt, etc, etc, etc, etc……………….
That does not change the fact that the nation itself does not separate itself from its religion,
So? Israel doesn’t separate itself from its religion, you say. Israel is not a theocracy by definition; Theocracy, according to the dictionary, is the “government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.” Last time I looked Israel held elections and none of the candidates declared themselves the leader of the Jewish faith….which btw is not just one homogeneous faith.
Saudi Arabia and Iran [among others in the middle east] do not separate their governments from their religion and that doesn’t stop us from doing business with them either. And it certainly does seem that Iran, ruled by their Supreme Leader the Iatola Khomeini qualifies as a theocracy. who combined political and religious authority as a head of state, he took office in 1979.
I don’t care if they worship Baal or a giant Minotaur as long as they keep their treaties with us, keep US safe and we are on the same team.
Every day is a holiday somewhere. Let’s close our schools. No one learns in them. They exist solely fro drug deals and as fodder for student/teacher sex.
Thank you NEA. Great job!
Secularism and The Fundamentalist Church of Environmentalism is his religion. We got many of those here.
David, Just read his words and see how ANGRY he is. There’s a backstory to that anger. It seems deeply personal. It’s pain that turned to rage. It’s too bad, but I doubt there is anything anyone can say that will ease that pain and rage.
The question that begs to be asked is if one’s religion is so divine and if it answers the demands put onto it by a believer, then why is that whole operation so devoid of confidence, why does that whole operation demand that everyone tow the line, why can’t that whole operation just quietly go about their mumbo jumbo without demanding so much attention.
Religious adherents who wear fancy hats, bed sheets, curly side burns, beanies without propellers, etc are exhibiting their beliefs to the world. Or are they sniffing out others of their beliefs. I think it is sort of like flashing tattoos, hanging the stars and bars in the rear windscreen, and other visual and audible statements.
If one’s religion is doing the job, there should be no need to expose it to the world, shove it down the throats of others, disrupt this sacred secular society, etc.
I like the architecture, art, and music. I like the ancient Greek works as well. The Greeks had more choice and an ongoing learning experience. Christianity and Islam are far too dictatorial.
issac wrote: “… disrupt this sacred secular society…”
An interesting oxymoron that reveals secularism for you *IS* a religion. This explains much about your comments.
Now exactly how do the anti-public religion folks populating this thread square that the US outlaws public institution of religion and yet has a permanent āunbreakable bondā with a nation whose existence is allegedly based on religion and one that outlaws…[blah blah blah blah]
Well, since the relationship with Israel is not based on the Jewish religion but rather on the political, economic and strategic position of Israel in the Middle East, I don’t have a problem with Israel. In addition, there are several shades (so to speak) of Jewish religious sects. None of which have much of anything to do with the political and strategic value of a country in the position of Israel.
BTW: our unbreakable bond seems to be pretty much wet tissue paper lately anyway. Maybe Israel will decide that the US isn’t such a good political ally after all.
You simply ignore the fact that Israel is a self-described “Jewish State” and that means that Israel is by definition a “religious State.”
Here’s a decent analogy: I declare XXXXXX (fill in any special religious day) a holiday, accompanied by the statement that I declare the holiday to be based on secular reasons. I build a cross with public funds and declare the reason is for shade.
For convenience you state our relationship with Israel is for blah blah blah reasons having nothing to do with religion. That does not change the fact that the nation itself does not separate itself from its religion, and its claim for its reason to exist is a religion (God gave them the land).
Besides, Mershmeir and others long ago well proved that the USA’s relationship with Israel is a net negative, and I also proved it’s illegal, but that won’t stop you I’m sure.
There are basically 2 types of atheists. I have family/friends in both categories. There are the non Evangelical atheists. They don’t believe in God, but have tolerance and enough self esteem that they don’t go ape when God is mentioned. Then there are the angry atheists who speak in polemics whenever a topic like this is discussed. They are generally angry, unhappy people in all aspects of life. We have PLENTY of the latter. We need some of the former. We actually used to have a few of the non Evangelical atheists here. But, they seem to have vanished.
A lot of anti-public religious sentiment in this thread. No problem with that. Let me attempt a little test.
Hilary and Obama state the US and Israel have an “unbreakable bond.” (I’ll leave aside for now that this strictly violates G. Washington’s Farewell Address advice that “…all foreign relationships are temporary…”)
Now Israel is a self-described “Jewish State,” and “Jewish” comprises a culture, a religion (Judaism), and an alleged DNA.
Now exactly how do the anti-public religion folks populating this thread square that the US outlaws public institution of religion and yet has a permanent “unbreakable bond” with a nation whose existence is allegedly based on religion and one that outlaws (just for starters) any Palestinian from becoming a citizen of Israel (even one married to an Israeli citizen), and also considers a litmus test for support of the so-called “Jewish State?” I find the following analogy quite good: “I’m strictly against slavery personally, but I don’t get into my neighbor’s business on this subject.”
Curious how you intellectual types square this obvious and glaring hypocrisy.
Another curious thing (actually an ongoing felonious crime) about the US relationship with Israel, Pakistan, and India: The USA signed the the NNPT/Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, and all signed Treaties including this one possess the power of the US Constitution. The Treaty prohibits any signatory from relationship with any nuclear armed non-signatory, which of course defines Israel. So every act of diplomacy and relationship with Israel is an ongoing felonious crime.
But let’s not be so picky about such things, right?
Seventh Day Agnosticism is the One Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth regimen.
It relies on Fact not Fiction; Science not Sorcery; Principle not Prevarication, Virtue not Venality; Historiography not “Hysteriagraphy”; Exegesis not Exaggeration; Candidness not Cant; it is Foundational not Fatuous; Revelatory not Ridiculous: Mind-opening not Myopic….
Davidm got a trivia question.
Which employee designed the 1993 oil & fertilizer bomb for WTC, NY bombing on an Exxon oil company computer in New Jersey? This is fun.
A truly great civilization would be tolerant of religion and various religious viewpoints
There is a great deal of difference between being tolerant of religion and having every religious sect’s, cult’s or denomination’s beliefs shoved on to you and having those religions negatively impact your life. I can be tolerant that people celebrate Ramadan or don’t like to eat pork. They can do whatever they want. Tolerance does not mean acceptance or honoring others traditions. It is just that I am going to ignore and tolerate them.
I am INtolerant of those who want to force me to honor or live by their traditions. Insist that I accommodate my life to theirs and insist that I not eat pork or that it be removed from traditional menus.
The culture of THIS country was based on a Christian culture. Like it or not. It is history. If the immigrants who are flooding into this country cannot cope with the EXISTING culture and who demand that we all kowtow to theirs continue to insist that everyone else bend to their religion, it is going to have a very very bad outcome.
If you are an Atheist, Muslim, Catholic, whatever…..you should be tolerant and you should also not demand that others dance to your tune.
Religion does NOT belong in the public arena. It does not belong at work. It does not belong in schools.
I am also against Congress holding prayer sessions. Pray in private. DO the people’s work in public.
DBQ, I have to admit that I do not understand how you have been offended. I have no problem with someone making an argument for why I should not eat pork. It is just an argument. I don’t have to agree or abide by it. Likewise, I have no problem hearing an argument for why a school might want to accommodate a religiously observed holiday. It doesn’t mean they are going to get it. Listen to the argument, and if it is not persuasive, then vote against it. That is how democracy works.
As for Congress opening in prayer, I like it because it reminds them and others that there is a higher authority watching what they do. For some it might encourage humility. It does not take much time and does not hinder business. What’s the big deal?
The idea that the schoolās predominate culture should include a religious preference is still outrageous. Itās a PUBLIC school.
I find myself in 100% agreement with Annie on this. Public schools should not have religious holidays. That we already have National holidays that coincide with religious ones is an historical fact and a completely different issue. It is traditional and a matter of government policy to take some of those days off of work.
Since public/government agencies close and some of those holidays are historically religious….. it only makes sense to have the schools also close at the same time for convenience sake. To to allow parents to be able to coordinate their own time off and vacations. If your workplace is closed for Thanksgiving, then the schools should be as well
However, to start, willy nilly having each and every religious sect demand special holidays is only to cause confusion and inconvenience those people who are WORKING during whatever special holiday is being taken off by the schools. Parents would need to continually scramble to find child care or leave their children home alone.
The NJ solution of allowing excused absences for those who want to take a particular religious day off is perfectly adequate. HOWEVER. If we end up with multitudes of different holidays and a hodgepodge of students being absent it will adversely affect their already awful educational experience.
Plato’s Law specifies the death penalty for practice of “conventicle” (private religious practice). Plato and TPTB desired only public religious practice, knowing that conventicle diminishes public cohesion.
Prior to Roman Emperor Constantine’s alleged “conversion” to Christianity 3rd C AD, any and all public religious practice was legal and honorable. By law Christianity was outlawed for two reasons: they had no church edifice so they practiced conventicle, and they also elevated their God above the Emperor who was considered deity.
Post-conversion, Constantine turned the religious world upside down: Christianity was the only legal religion and all other religion was illegal. The old “if you can’t beat ’em join ’em” meme.
The English CH (as in Christ) = XP in Latin. A Catholic symbol that stands today is a “P” with elongated stem; an “X” crosses the bottom of the stem. Constantine first used this XP symbol of Christ to lead his troops into battle to kill his enemies. Today modern so-called Christians paint a cross on smart bombs.
I have wondered if the following world might be the better one: a world where any and all private religion is legal, but any public display of any religion is illegal. Kind of a strange twist of the situations described above, neither of which seem suitable.
Leave prayer in the closet, where Jesus said it belongs in Mathew. In this case, the private closet can be large, even a Church, but leave it in there, and don’t bring it out here. Or if you do bring it out here, make it silent.
Just a thought.
It’s time to stop allowing religious people to control the general public with their belief systems. It IS entirely possible to be a Thiest, a Christian, a Moslem, a Buddhist, a Jew without imposing it on others.
Annie wrote: “It IS entirely possible to be a Thiest, a Christian, a Moslem, a Buddhist, a Jew without imposing it on others.”
But is it entirely possible to be a secularist without imposing it upon others?
Yes David IT IS.
No David, your stated purpose for the competion wasn’t lost on me at all. The idea that the school’s predominate culture should include a religious preference is still outrageous. It’s a PUBLIC school. Public institutions should not be involved in any way in religious practices, which would include time off for religious holidays. Public schools should have slots of time for scheduled time off at certain points in the school year, IMO. No need to give them a religious connotation.
If they want their holiday then they better shut the heck up about Christian ones!
Issac,
In New Jersey, you play by the rules. A local mayor stands up against union cops and teachers union pay. Head of police union, police officer Otto arrests the Mayor at his home.
Silence is golden.
Kim
There are four major divisions during the year regardless of religion. Dec 21, March 21, June 21, Sept 21. These represent the shortest and longest days of the year and the half way mark coming and going. Before the world got screwed up with its present religions, these days existed both in religion and seasonally. In fact most religions have plastered their stickers on these days.
Twice a school year, in and around Dec. 21 and in and around March 21 there exists a major break. Christmas or the birthday of the representative of one of the world’s major religions, was moved to Dec 25, as was the resurrection to April. If Christians can be so accommodating then so should the Jews and the Muslims. After all these are man made events that can be tailored to society in general, or at least that is what is written in the Constitution. Man made the details, dates, and dances, not god. God may have had a representative that rode back and forth to heaven on a horse but it was man that designed this nonsense. Man can redecorate to accommodate.
If a particular religion cannot live under the umbrella of the laws of the society as a whole then they have the options of leaving or lumping it. There are numerous Christian, Catholic, and other sect holidays that are celebrated in European countries but not in the US or Canada. If every dips*t religious holiday was celebrated we would get nothing done. Religion has a place but should be put firmly into that place and kept there. Religion dictating to the general public is a major step backwards. We are better than that.
As for Islam it is a backward religion, by some 700 years and is still evolving. Muslims are at a place in their existence where if they had it their way they would be the government, just as was the case with Christianity 700 years ago. Only time and a firm grip on the tiller will allow Islam to mature into a religion based on human rights as has Christianity and Judaism, for the most part. In the majority of Christian countries the laws are generated by the secular powers, not the pederasts, pedophiles, celibates, and other clowns. The grip on the tiller is the law of the land. The law of the land specifically states that religion shall have no place in government. If you want to wear a bed sheet that’s your business. If you want to disturb the calendar that affects the other 97% of the population then that’s the business of the 97%, not the 3%.
At this time when Christianity has given up Easter and pretty much Christmas it is abhorrent that Islam is demanding special treatment.
issac wrote: ” Religion has a place but should be put firmly into that place and kept there. Religion dictating to the general public is a major step backwards. We are better than that.”
This is strongly discriminatory against people of religion. How different it is from the leadership of Thomas Jefferson who encouraged church meetings in the Capitol building. He attended church there regularly, right in the House of Representatives. Jefferson invited all the religions to come teach and proselytize at the University of Virginia campus, giving them land to establish their presence there. Now here comes issac with his vision of religious people being forced to be private. It reminds me of adults in another age who thought children should be seen but not heard. There is nothing more discriminatory and marginalizing than claiming that religious views are meant to be private.
A truly great civilization would be tolerant of religion and various religious viewpoints. It will create a society where the mind is free to be persuaded and decide for itself the truth value of religious doctrines. In a great civilization, religious as well as political views will be discussed in public forums. Our Constitution was established to create just this, but some people have twisted its meaning and keep claiming that it requires freedom FROM religion instead of freedom OF religion. They are wrong in their interpretation. Only the people can set this straight if they take the time to educate themselves about the matter.