The Obama Administration has responded critically to the decision from an Israeli court to give an Israeli border police officer just community service for his entirely unjustified attack on an American teenager. Tariq Khdeir, 15, a Palestinian-American, was beaten by the officer, whose name has been withheld by the courts to avoid any further repercussions for him or his family. The beating was filmed after the officer caught the teenager near a riot in East Jerusalem in July 2014. Despite this evidence (and no evidence of just cause) the Israeli court gave the officer just 45 days of community service and a suspended prison term of four months.
Here is the video showing the officer stomping on the teenager and hitting him despite his being on the ground and apparently immobilized. Indeed, he appears unconscious as they carry him to the road but he is again attacked by the officer:
State prosecutors requested a seven-month jail term for the beating after international outrage over the video.
The Court however noted the officer’s remorse and his service to the state security forces as mitigating circumstances.
Tariq, who was 15 at the time, was spending the summer with relatives in East Jerusalem when violence broke out over the gruesome killing of his cousin Muhammad Abu Khdeir, 16, by Jewish extremists. The killers reportedly acted to avenge the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli youths by Palestinian militants in the West Bank. Police said that Tariq was masked and holding a wooden slingshot when the officer chased him.
The State Department has sharply criticized the Israeli handling of the case in the following statement from Spokesperson John Kirby:
We were disappointed to learn that the Israeli police officer who severely beat American teenager Tariq Abu Khdeir in July of 2014 was spared prison time by an Israeli court yesterday. Given the clear evidence captured on videotape of the excessive use of force, it is difficult to see how this sentence would promote full accountability for the actions of the police officer in this case. We understand there is a possibility for the Israeli state prosecutor to appeal the decision, and we’re going to continue to follow that closely, as you might expect.
I’ll just state again, the safety, security, and protection of American citizens overseas is of paramount importance for this Administration, and we have demonstrated repeatedly – we’ve demonstrated that repeatedly in cases all over the globe.
Here is a statement from the family of Tariq Abu Khdeir:
“To hear that the officer responsible for the inhumane beating of our young son, Tariq, was only sentenced to one-and-a-half months of community service is a shameful slap on the wrist and sends the wrong message that Israel tolerates the violent, extrajudicial beating of children. We continue to demand that justice be served, for the officers that participated in his cruel beating to be held accountable in a transparent manner, and for assurances that such treatment of Palestinian minors by Israeli forces will end.”
I cannot imagine how a court could justify community service in the face of this videotape evidence. Even if the teenager was guilty of some crime (for which he was not charged), the beating was clearly excessive and unjustified. Community service is hardly a commensurate punishment for the beating received by this American teenager.
What do you think?
Po is hysterical. He doesn’t like that the author is Jewish and a Zionist, but that’s all he can manage to throw out there. Never mind that every word that is contained in the articles is right on point and true. His insightful and brilliant articles present irrefutable facts. Poor, poor po. He can’t handle the truth. He seems to have a variety of comments about the personal lives of others–those of whom he knows nothing. Fascinating. I thought that Islam banned sorcery and witchcraft? Sounds as if there may be no 72 fat, ugly and hairy virgins waiting for him if he keeps it up.
hahahaha…you are killing me, bam… i am fasting today, so am quite weak, please don’t make me laugh too hard and get hurt.
I did not read whatever Daniel Greenbeans wrote. I researched the name before, found out who is he, and though I know you worship his inanities, i find his thinking to be a tad bit biased against me…so I hope you understand.
If you want me to address anything, make it yours. lay out your arguments as cogently as you can, I know, difficult but try still, otherwise all we do is battle by proxy, you quote smarter people than you, I quote people as smart as me.
I understand however while you would recruit others to make the points you cannot make… not everyone can do what I do 🙂
CNN Justice Reporter: Killer San Bernardino Couple Just Wanted to ‘Settle Down’
You know, raise kids, watch reality shows, build pipe bombs. The usual.
12.3.2015
News
Caleb Howe
CNN Justice Reporter Evan Perez has been on the air a lot today discussing the suspected Islamic terrorism in San Bernardino, California yesterday. Perez is not ready to drop the possibility that this was “workplace violence” despite voluminous glaring evidence, the preponderance of expert opinion, and the FBI’s own investigation.
In fact, he is so completely unwilling to drop the idea that he pitched a crazy alternate theory, a fabricated immigrant family life that fails to account for the pipe-bomb factory in the couple’s garage.
“[The female terrorist] traveled on what is known as as a fiancée visa. Essentially she was coming here to marry him. And they’ve since had a family, she’s become a natural… not a naturalized citizen, she’s become a legal permanent resident. And I guess that the purpose here was that they were going to settle down, and then something clearly went wrong. It’s not clear what the explanation is for what turned yesterday, Wolf.”
The purpose was they were going to “settle down”? Can the people on CNN hear the words falling out of their own mouths? This couple was armed to the teeth, carrying pipe bombs, making more, had a stream of suspicious characters moving through their home, and the FBI has already said the male terrorist was a “radicalized” Muslim.
Evan. The purpose was not to “settle down” and raise an American family and pursue the American dream of Starbucks and pipe bombs when something went suddenly, inexplicably wrong just yesterday. You guessed wrong.
If you want to talk about justice, where is the justice in this guy saying such idiotic things on TV with no one to challenge his assertions? That’s an injustice.
So what is your conclusion, Bam? You keep posting essays by daniel greenfield, the same islamophobe and zionist you seem to worship.
Let me understand, you quote someone who holds the same extremist views as you do, as a valid source for proving your point?
What is he saying that you haven’t hurled already?
it is akin to me quoting hamas to you to prove my point about Israeli extremism!
i hope you are NOT a lawyer, as I hope Paul is no longer teaching, I pity your charges 🙂
Randy, to quote Paul, don’t go off on a tangent. Once I finish you off about the current topic, I’ll give you a chance to rebuild yourself on the other. So don’t keep shooting blanks, you are empty! pace your falsities, please, we have all night!
Terror Strikes San Bernardino County
And how we must protect ourselves.
December 3, 2015
Daniel Greenfield
140
1.2K179
When the Redlands Tea Party Patriots objected to the resettling of Syrian Muslim migrants in their community, CAIR accused them of “paranoia and phobia is rooted in a combination of ignorance and bigotry.”
But “paranoia and phobia” are the modern condition that the free world has found itself living in. Islamic terrorism can strike anytime and anywhere from a Paris concert hall to a San Bernardino County facility where disabled children were being helped. It’s ignorance to ignore that and bigotry to defend it.
“What will be done to ensure the safety of our community? Our biggest concern is the safety of our family, our children and our grandchildren,” Victoria Hargrave of Redlands Townhall had asked.
It was a good question. As the country watched police charge towards a home in the Redlands, it has become an even better question.
The shooter, Sayeed Farouk, was described by his father as a religiously devout Muslim. “He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back.” Neighbors say that he “grew a beard and started to wear religious clothing. The long shirt that’s like a dress and the cap on his head.”
And at some point his “religiosity” took him down the familiar path of Jihad.
Neighbors knew something was wrong, but were afraid that they would be accused of Islamophobia if they reported it. Officially the motive of this religiously devout Muslim couple in carrying out a terrorist attack is still unknown. The evolving media narrative is that familiar standby of “workplace violence”. The sort of workplace violence involving an attack by multiple terrorists wearing body armor and throwing pipe bombs shortly after an argument at a party.
If you believe this version of the “workplace violence” story, the shooter stormed out of a party and 20 minutes later had managed to round up multiple heavily armed attackers to avenge his party argument.
It’s certainly a story. Even if it isn’t a very good story. And yet it’s a story that we keep hearing over and over again.
It begins with lies and ends with body bags.
Everything possible was done to deny Nidal Hassan’s terrorist motivations in the Fort Hood Massacre. His attack was deemed workplace violence. Even his own attempts to explain that he supported the terrorists were shut down so that he was reduced to smuggling messages to get his story out.
And despite multiple statements by Hassan that he was a terrorist, the official story is still workplace violence. Right after the shooting, it was some strain of airborne PTSD that had somehow transmitted itself from American veterans to the Muslim employee who had never seen combat until he began killing them.
There are always excuses.
The Times Square bomber had financial issues. The Tsarnaev terrorists were poorly adjusted. Once the media digs into Farouk’s life, it will no doubt find that he had financial issues, was poorly adjusted and may have even been suffering from some mysterious form of airborne PTSD.
Obama and the media would like to make this story about “gun violence”. But guns don’t shoot themselves. There is a hand that pulls the trigger and a mind whose foul purposes that hand serves.
Gun violence is not a mechanical problem. It is not a hardware problem of guns going off at random. It is not a biological problem of fingers randomly twitching on triggers. It is a problem of the mind.
Behind each massacre, there is a mind. And it is that mind, its ideas and its beliefs, that kills.
San Bernardino is home to what is described as a “growing Muslim population” and that growth comes with terrifying growing pains.
This latest attack appears to be one of them.
It’s a matter of simple math that as the population most likely to commit terrorist acts increases, so do the acts themselves.
Two months ago, Marilyn Snyder of the Redlands Tea Party Patriots wrote of “the runners and spectators of the Boston Marathon who never imagined that refugee jihadists were stealthily plotting their demise — just because they were not Muslims.”
Most people in San Bernardino County did not expect that anyone was plotting to kill them. They did not think that one evening the events from far-off France would suddenly be taking place where they lived.
And yet that is the new reality.
Islamic terrorism can strike anywhere and everywhere.
“While it is impossible to prevent death delivered by madmen who kill because of religious extremism, it is possible to put in place federal policies that limit the influx of Muslim extremists through the wide-open refugee doors of the Obama administration,” Marilyn wrote.
That remains true.
Sayeed Farouk, like Nidal Hassan, did not suddenly fly over here from Syria. But that only makes it more vital that we prevent the next attack and the next massacre by closing the doors and keeping our country safe.
We cannot bring back the dead, the victims of the long horrifying roll of Islamic terror that stretches back for thousands of years, but we can protect the living.
The left approaches this as a mechanical problem, but it’s an ideological problem. It’s a conflict between two sets of ideas and two sets of worldviews. It is a war between those who believe that men must be ruled by the dead will of Mohammed and his brutal successors and those of us who believe in the freedom of our founding documents and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
It is not a war that we will win through appeasement or disarmament. And we can begin to fight back by protecting ourselves and our country.
“We Redlanders and all Americans need to stand up with “common sense and judgment” with an emphatic “No!” to Syrian refugee resettlement. It’s time to bar the doors against jihadi infiltration,” Marilyn wrote.
From Redland to Paris, it’s time that we did the right thing, for our towns, our cities and our country.
Paul C
An article in USA TODAY, dated December 3, 2015, FRANCE SHUTS DOWN MOSQUES IN STATE OF EMERGENCY, is evidence that even the socially liberal French–normally in a stupor and drowsy on the consumption of their precious foie gras, brie and baguettes–are awakening to the dangers that their Muslim population has wrought. Po can rail all he wishes. The truth is that societies around the world rue the day that they opened their doors and homes to these savages. Nothing like a few mass murders on your land to wake the French from their coma. Instead of po working to reform his own alleged religion, where barbarity and mass murder are encouraged, demanded, rewarded and respected, his ire and condemnation is cast upon anyone and everyone else.
“…They opened the doors to these savages…”?
If we were to tally what the west has wrought the world versus what these “savages” have, I tell you, bam, we would have to declare forfeit!
The Iraq invasion alone has killed more people than all of Islam ever has.
France’s bombing in Syria, in the last 2 weeks alone, has killed more Muslims than islam ever has killed French!
Without those savages, France would be still part of Nazi Germany. So tell that to my grandparents who died fighting for France.
Tell that to the Muslims, cops and shopkeeper who protected the jews in the kosher store.
Without their labor and their resources, their science and their civilization, the West would still be the backward land it was.
Tell that to the Saudis oppressed and backward thanks to our support of their dictators.
Tell that to the thousands of jailed Egyptians thanks to our arming and support of their dictator.
Tell that to the thousands of Muslim slaves forced upon these shores to labor to death, whose roots run deeper than yours. Muslims helped found this country! Where were your ancestors then?
Muslims fought in the civil war, where were your ancestors then?
Guess which country has been named most tolerant country on earth?
Before France.
Before the US.
Before Israel.
Senegal.
92% Muslim.
Once again:
Senegal. 92% Muslim. Most tolerant country on earth.
Mic drop!
po – I told you not to go off on a tangent. Keep to the topic.
po, I see you believe in the tooth fairly and Santa Claus. Some of your howlers,
Without their labor and their resources, their science and their civilization, the West would still be the backward land it was.
While it is true that during the Middle Ages in Europe, the Muslims were more advanced than Europe, but they were hardly laborers in Europe back then. It also ignore all of modern history since Muslims have contributed little if anything to science, arts, literature,medicine since the Middle ages. Maybe you can show all of us the Nobel Prizes Muslims have won compared to say Jews?
Without those savages, France would be still part of Nazi Germany
That is funny since there were few if ANY Muslims in the US or British Armies. There were so few that it is only recently the DoD has had any Muslim chaplains.
Tell that to the Saudis oppressed and backward thanks to our support of their dictators.
While I have no love for any royals, they were perfectly capable of establishing their rule on their own and no help from the US. The US is simply recognizing the legitimate and established government there. Unless of course, you want the US to impose a government on them. As for being backward, it is the Muslim fanatics who are for going backward and is hardly the fault of the US. In case you don’t know the Saudis have plenty of money and resources to build anything they want, and are doing so.
Muslims fought in the civil war, where were your ancestors then?
While I cannot say that NO Muslim ever fought in the US Civil War, they were so few as to be unknown and infinitesimal. In FACT, ALL of the Muslim nations took NO part at all in ANY fight against slavery anywhere in the world. The Saudis only outlawed slavery in 1965 to be able to join the UN. In FACT the most active slavers in the world are all MUSLIMS They also fought against those countries which outlawed slavery.
Tell that to the thousands of Muslim slaves forced upon these shores to labor to death, whose roots run deeper than yours.
That is another outright lie. Most of the Africans brought to the US, which were only 5% of the total taken, came from areas that were not Muslim. Islam had not penetrated to the west coast at that time so most of the slaves were animists. As for your assertion about my ancestors, it shows your ignorance and arrogance to us all. My ancestors came before there was a USA and fought in the Revolution. So I can claim that I have the USA as the legacy of the fight my ancestors made for our freedom I seriously doubt YOU can make that same claim.
So paul, let me share some of that ridicule Bibi got, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
SNORT…HAHAHAHAHAHA
————————————————————————–
http://972mag.com/israeli-memes-mock-netanyahus-hitler-revisionism/113028/
Israeli memes mock Netanyahu’s Hitler revisionism
Netanyahu is claiming that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was responsible for convincing Hitler to exterminate the Jews. Israelis and Palestinians are not letting him get off easy.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem Tuesday afternoon, where he claimed that until he was convinced by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hitler never actually planned on exterminating European Jewry.
Related stories
Netanyahu and the Mufti memes, part deux By +972 Blog | October 22, 2015
Jerusalem becoming mini-police state and ghost capital By Dahlia Scheindlin | October 20, 2015
Israelis and Palestinians are living in different worlds By Michael Schaeffer Omer-Man | October 19, 2015
According to Netanyahu’s curious reading of history, Hitler had only intended to expel the Jews, a plan that allegedly worried the Mufti, who was concerned that they would flee Europe for Palestine. Thus the Mufti hatched a new plan — one the Nazis had yet to come up with themselves: “Burn them.”
But Netanyahu didn’t get off so easy. Despite trying his best to backpedal on Wednesday, the prime minister’s words caused an uproar, prompting both the Israeli opposition as well as Holocaust historians to condemn his remarks. Average Israelis and Palestinians did not hold back, taking to social media to mock Netanyahu’s comments. Here are a few of my personal favorites:
Meme by John Brown.
By John Brown.
It’s time we found who really broke up The Beatles. (Shira Glezerman)
By Oren Gamchi
Mufti4
Meme of Netanyahu seen erecting a memorial plaque for Adolf Hitler, who ‘opposed the extermination of the Jews until the Mufti said so.’ (By John Brown)
By Shira Glezerman.
Not many people know this, but initially, Eve only wanted to sniff the apple. But then, during a meeting with he Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, he convinced her to take a bite out of it. #MuftiSays Posted by Fady Yousef Khoury on Wednesday, October 21, 2015
Hitler was thinking of going vegetarian, but after talking with the Mufti he said he might as well go vegan. #themuftichangedmymind — Ami Kaufman (@AmiKaufman) October 21, 2015
Don’t blame it on the third Reich Don’t blame it on the rassentheoriDon’t blame it on the blutreinheiBlame it on the mufti Posted by Tomer Lavie on Wednesday, October 21, 2015
You knew it was coming…Hitler Finds Out That Bibi Thinks the Grand Mufti Convinced Hitler to Kill Jews Posted by Rabbi Eliyahu Fink on Wednesday, October 21, 2015
“There is no Palestinian people, and, they are responsible for the Holocaust.” https://t.co/fW8rjpRoyR — Mairav Zonszein (@MairavZ) October 21, 2015
po – just read what I linked, don’t go off on a tangent.
hahahaha…nah, Paul, I am the student of the factual history, the one that actually happened, not the one you and Bibi subscribe to, where the holocaust is blamed on the grand mufti of Egypt, not Hitler.
look up the ridicule Bibi got after he made those comments, less than a month ago, and punish yourself with it, deservingly.
Even bambam, our noted extremist, won’t go there.
———————————————-
One day after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked a global outcry with controversial remarks about the Holocaust, he attempted to redirect the outrage at Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
During an incendiary speech to the World Zionist Conference on Tuesday, Netanyahu said that Hitler intended only to “expel” the Jews from Europe, and that the idea to “exterminate” them in the Holocaust had come from Haj Amin al-Husseini, a Palestinian Muslim elder who served as the mufti of Jerusalem.
Haaretz reporter Barak Ravid followed up on Netanyahu’s controversial statement with two pointed questions during a joint press conference with Netanyahu and German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Wednesday. Ravid asked Merkel how she felt about the Holocaust being used as a “political football.” He then wondered whether it was maybe a bit hypocritical of Netanyahu to have condemned a speech by Abbas as “inflammatory” last week, in light of his own provocative remarks on Tuesday.
“Hitler was responsible for the Holocaust,” Netanyahu responded, before doubling down on his initial statement seconds later: “I think no one should deny … important testimony about the mufti of Jerusalem, that he told the Nazis to prevent the fleeing of Jews from Europe, and that he supported the Final Solution.”
“I think the real question should be directed not at me, but at President Abbas,” Netanyahu continued. “Why is he and the Palestinian Authority glorifying the mufti of Jerusalem as a Palestinian icon? They call him the father of the Palestinian nation. This is a war criminal that was sought for war crimes… This is a man who collaborated with the Nazis, and yet he is glorified in schoolbooks [and] texts.”
Merkel’s response, in contrast, was straightforward. “We don’t see any reason to change our view of history,” she said. “We abide by our responsibility, as Germany, for the Holocaust.“
po – you didn’t read what I linked did you? If you had you would not be making these statements.
Bambam, do you still agree with the Rabbi that the Paris attacks were comeuppance for the holocaust?
tob shebbe goyim harog!
Give it up, po.
This is a right wing Breitbartian rage against Muslims site. You will convince none of the Islamaphobes here and only become a target of mockery – just as Annie was. By continuing to post you are only satisfying their lust for a target. There is no dignity in argument here. It is owned by haters and the fearful.
You are so right, Samboswell…I am an optimist, but against these guys, optimism is downright madness 🙂
Randy, I satisfied the onus put on me to offer a cite, I did. You refuted it based on nothing but personal belief. It is now your turn to support your rebuttal, or should we just believe it because it is you saying it?
You are grasping on straws for you have no argument. I already acknowledged that targeting civilians is terrorism. Hamas itself requested an ICC investigations on itself and on Israel, but guess which party is fighting it? yes, Israel.
However, according to your logic, 9/11 was justified because the American people was also at war against Al Qaeda. By the same token, the paris attacks, along with the next attacks by isis here are justifiable based on that same logic.
And the Boko haram attacks, and the Al qaeda in yemen attacks…you just basically justified terrorism by Islamic extremists.
You are all over the place, one minute you exculpate the Palestinian people and blame hamas, the next you blame the Palestinian people for choosing Hamas!
Why? because you got into a logical no man’s land, which I pounced upon, now you are trying to reconcile opposite arguments you made. Dishonest!
as I asked above : however, either hamas is self-sovereign enough to declare war, and therefore it means its fate is not controlled by Israel, or Israel legitimately has the right to control the fate of gazans, which means, logically, that gaza is not sovereign, which undermines your whole argument.
Which one is it?
Trying to rewrite history won’t help, your “facts” are culled out of thin air. All those “facts”have been already addressed in my previous posts, you are just talking in circles right now. I noticed that you skipped the fact that Hamas was enabled and empowered by Israel to fight the PLO, just as we empowered and enabled Al Qaeda.
Ultimately, this is the crux of the argument. Is Gaza is occupied or not? if occupied, then all international laws that decry that Israel is at fault apply, for one can’t be the occupier AND be at war against the occupied. International law 101.
Here is my case, stated moult times but avoided just as often.
————————————
We still are faced with the same problem however, which is the one of CONTROL, Egypt controls nothing of Gaza, only its border with Gaza. Israel controls Gaza, even from the border.
That state is easily infirmed by answering yes to any of the following questions:
Do they have access to their maritime extents? No
Do they have access to their land mass extents? No
Do they have access to their airspace? No
Do they have access to their natural resources? No
Do they have freedom of movement? No
Do they have access to the international market? No
Do they have access to their monetary earnings/ remittances? No
And which entity is the SOLE entity causing all those no’s? Yes, Israel! There is your occupation.
Po, let me make it simple for you. The fact is that Israel is not occupying Gaza and the proof is that it IS occupying the West Bank. Is that too hard to understand? Thus the rules applying to the West Bank do NOT apply to Gaza since to answer your questions, Hamas DOES control its territory on the ground. Just because Israel attacks does not remove that fact. Maybe you think that Hamas folks live in a disembodied state somewhere other than Gaza. They have access to their maritime assets to three miles as you have stated. They can dig for whatever they wish and build what they wish in Gaza. So the answer is yes they have access to their natural resources. They can move where they wish in Gaza. There is a blockade so not having access to international markets is a result of the war they are waging. They have access to their money if they wish to print it. Israel does not collect taxes in Gaza so I have no idea of what remittance you are talking about.
for one can’t be the occupier AND be at war against the occupied. International law 101.
Maybe you can show me International law 101. It is silly since Germany was indeed at war with the countries they invaded and RULED. The only difference is that there are different rules for warfare and occupation once the military operations have ceased. Once the military ops end, THEN is when international law prohibits COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT by going after those who are innocent of any acts against the occupier. Now if Hamas leaves Gaza, and then Israel attacks Gaza for acts that Hamas commits in Gaza or Israel, then that is collective punishment.
I have no idea of how you get the idea that Al Qeda was justified in blowing up the US embassies or 9/11. They were acts of war which needs no justification other than aggressive war is considered a war crime by the Nuremberg Tribunal. The only relevant thing is when the perps go to trial as to whether or not they are treated as war criminals or murderers. If no trial is possible, then killing them is perfectly legal and proper under the rules of warfare.
Randy, it is YOU justifying 9/11 and any other past and future attacks on the West and elsewhere.
Why? Because you said that through the mere declaration of war against Israel by Hamas, israel is justified in attacking Gaza. Additionally, you are saying that since Hamas declared war against Israel, then therefore Israel is not guilty of war crimes by making the Gazan population pay for the decision of its leaders.
Were we not at war with Al Qaeda when it attacked the world trade center? Had we not declared war on Al qaeda by the point?
According to your logic therefore, Al Qaeda(Israel) was justified in making our population pay for the decisions of our leaders (hams).
Accordingly, Al qaeda/osama bin laden should not be be prosecuted for war crimes, nor tried at all.
Again, your Germany parallel is not an apt one, and actually undermines your point. Whatever germany did was deemed illegal by all international rules. Hence the trial of Nazis. Accordingly, Israel’s actions are against international law, and hence, someday the trials of bibi et al.
You have revealed enough of your ignorance about this issue, old chap! you are,as I said. speaking in circles, using one falsity to support he next.
What is the difference between the west bank and gaza? The west bank is still being devoured from the inside, while gaza has been reduced to a prison, an open air prison.
I noticed you pretended to answer a couple of points, conveniently ignoring the others.
If Hamas can dig tunnels as they wish, where does Israel get the authority to bomb those tunnels on Gazan ground?
How can gazans build what they wish when the building materials are not let in by Israel?
Have the Gazan determined that their maritime assets end at 3 miles or is that an arbitrary limit imposed upon them?
By whom?
Do gazans have access to the gas fields that lay within their maritime extents, beyond the 3 miles?
What about the underground water being siphoned by israel?
We still are faced with the same problem however, which is the one of CONTROL, Egypt controls nothing of Gaza, only its border with Gaza. Israel controls Gaza, even from the border.
That state is easily infirmed by answering yes to any of the following questions:
Do they have access to their maritime extents? No
Do they have access to their land mass extents? No
Do they have access to their airspace? No
Do they have access to their natural resources? No
Do they have freedom of movement? No
Do they have access to the international market? No
Do they have access to their monetary earnings/ remittances? No
And which entity is the SOLE entity causing all those no’s? Yes, Israel! There is your occupation.
Who controls Gaza?
po, You fail to show how I justify any acts. What I DO dispute is your lying about what are war crimes. The US is at war with Al Qeada. Thus if they attacked military or other legitimate government targets, they would NOT be committing a war crime. Even in wartime, the embassies are off limits., thus their bombing US embassies is a WAR CRIME. Hijacking and using civilian planes to hit civilian targets is a WAR CRIME. Now if they had driven a truck with high explosives on it at the Pentagon, that would NOT be a war crime. Simple.
Additionally, you are saying that since Hamas declared war against Israel, then therefore Israel is not guilty of war crimes by making the Gazan population pay for the decision of its leaders.
In ALL wars the civilian population pays a price for that war. So suffering by the civilians by blockade as in our Civil War or starvation by Gen Grant at Vicksburg is NOT a war crime under any standard.
Whatever germany did was deemed illegal by all international rules.
That statement is another outright LIE! If that were true, then ALL the officers of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe would have been tried as war criminals. Since you are so ignorant of history and facts, Adm Doenitz had the charge of unrestricted submarine warfare against him dropped at Nuremberg since Adm Nimitz testified the US Navy did the same thing. As I have stated before, you have failed to show or cite any law that the IDF violated, nor have your supposed legal briefs. Not only that, but only the true war criminals were prosecuted after WWII and they made it a rule to ONLY use German and international law at the time as the legal basis for those prosecutions. The bombing by the 8th Air Force was not a war crime by any standard, even though it devastated most of Germany and killed a large number of civilians. The Germans who were prosecuted did such things as COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT in which towns or a group of civilians who had no connection with an attack were randomly taken out and shot in reprisal. THAT is collective punishment, NOT that civilians suffer. You and the apologists for Hamas and their war crimes seek to re-define and distort the law against collective punishment to try and show that Israel is as guilty as Hamas. Sorry, but the law does NOT allow for random suffering as the basis for illegal treatment. If that were the case, then virtually ALL military actions would be illegal.
As far as bombing tunnels, Israel gets the same right to bomb since Hamas is bombing Israel with rockets DESIGNED to hit mainly civilian areas. Stop sending rockets, and Israel will leave Hamas alone as far as bombing. Simple. In FACT, Israel has ignored many rockets and Hamas is ahead on the tit for tat score board. Of course, as all rational people know, Hamas has no interest in ANY peace with Israel and has often stated its reason for existence is to destroy Israel. Maybe you can tell us how Israel should react to that.
Also, randy, collective punishment is ILLEGAL and a war crime.
Al Qaeda and Isis are a fighting army, a militia. They represent no people, they are not democratically elected. That’s another inadequate parallel.
Hamas is the government in Gaza. Is that true or not? Thus if it is the government as YOU say it is, collective punishment is NOT able to exist. Just as bombing Germany during WWII was NOT collective punishment.
Randy, you are all over the place with your argumentation, working way too hard to reconcile opposing arguments.
If you disagree with the lawyer’s definition of occupation, which is based on the actual legal definition of occupation, defined and practiced by international legal bodies, and used by all international courts, then the onus is on you to provide a better definition and legal brief.
Ins’t it interesting that of all the people in the world, only Israel and its apologists challenge the definition of occupation? And this after they used the same international laws to justify the establishment of Israel as a nation?
Your parallels are flawed beyond belief, and I have addressed those fallacies already above. There is no country in the world, especially Israel, that recognizes a sovereign state of Palestine. How is it possible to have a sovereign state of palestine when the land of Palestine has been carved in order to separate some parts from the other?
When israel is present between one part and the other, and separates one part from the other, and encircles gaza, and has the power and “right”” to establish an arbitrary buffer zone between gaza and the border with Ïsrael””?
Imagine if Mexico determined that there needs to be a buffer zone between us and them of 10 miles, and anyone who steps into it will be shot?
And Mexico also says that the US has only access to 10 feet of the Rio grand, and any american who crosses that arbitrary line will be shot? THAT would be bad enough, weren’t it further compounded by the fact that Hamas is not sovereign in its own territory: “” However, Israeli control in Gaza two years after disengagement is total; indeed, the very text of the disengagement plan explicitly provides for much of the current strangulation, ensuring that “Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip.” [6] In this way, Israel has fired upon Palestinian fishermen, has blocked the reconstruction of Yasser Arafat International Airport, and continues to exercise authority over all border regimes (upon which a blanket closure has been in effect since June 2007). Beyond this level of control, there is an abundance of academic and legal evidence indicating the continuation of Israel’s “effective control” in Gaza and thus, a continuation of the occupation under international law.
Yet the greatest evidence of Israeli power in Gaza lies in its power to wreak economic devastation as a matter of policy. Despite the disengagement plan’s pretensions to improve the Palestinian economy, its intentions to the opposite are all too clear. Two years after disengagement, the already abysmal economic conditions in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated in virtually all aspects — in large part because of the economic boycott imposed by the Quartet and spearheaded by the US after Hamas seized control of the strip last June. Since that time, any semblance of a manageable economy attempting to break through unfavorable conditions has been killed by the total closure of Gaza’s borders imposed by the Israeli authorities.””
If Israel controls the borders of Gaza, the airspace of Gaza, the seas of Gaza, the economy of Gaza, the movement of gazans, has complete access to its potable water and resources, how isn’t that occupation?
Look, I’ll even play along, and say along with you and Israel that Gaza is not occupied. What does it change? Do gazans have sovereignty over their land, resources, waters, airspace and population’s welfare? No!
Who does? Israel. there you go.
your attempt to equate Israel to egypt is intellectual dishonesty a best. Again, Egypt has NO CONTROL over Gaza. None! not of its land, waters, resources, people or airspace. Unlike Israel. Your fallacious parallel is akin to saying that England and Scotland have similar control of Ireland because scotland, like England, shares a border with Ireland (they don’t there is the sea in between, but play along.) Saying that Gaza is a country is doubling down imbecility!
And regarding your obsession with tunnels, tunnels are an essential tool for resistance since the first instance of occupied humanity. The first occupied people built tunnels to fight back, to hide their weapons and their fighters. Those are always crude tunnels that serve the basics of resistance, until a country has better means and more leisure to build tunnels for shelter(underground shelters in Britain during WW2 for example,) you are asking Hamas, which rules over a land devoid of any means, to build shelter tunnels for its population. do you realize of impossible of a task it is? Where do the logistical tools and means come to do such a thing? And don’t you realize that digging tunnels to shelter Gazans would result in the whole of Gaza collapsing into those tunnels?
Building crude shelter? Where in the world does the government build shelters for its population? Why the double standard for Hamas?
And do you realize that the US gave israel tunnel busters that can collapse tunnels from above ground? Where is the population safer, above ground in their homes where there is a chance Israel would refrain itself or underground where Israel would certainly bomb them and call them terrorists?
Are you serious?
By the way, according to all international laws, collective punishment is a crime against humanity.
I read the lawyers brief and it is lacking most of things I look for in a brief. It has NO cites of law, all it has is the opinion of the lawyer and the IRC. Sorry but that is NOT a valid argument. It also flies in the face of common sense, and historical precedents. That is one sorry lawyer.
Your statements that having control over the external access of a country means it is occupied is absurd. The UN after Normandy controlled all access of Germany in WWII and bombed them into nothing. That did not mean the war was over and Germany was occupied in late 1944. Egypt has control of its border, and they are not letting supplies in either. As for tunnels, they are good enough to bring in high explosives, and ammo, and to make attacks on Israel. How about bringing in something other than arms? How about using that cement to build shelters, instead of making more tunnels? I and Israel, and most rational people AGREE that the West Bank IS occupied territory. So we are not denying valid occupation.
A country does not have to be recognized to be a territory at war with another. I note the fact of the Confederacy in the Civil War. Lincoln hated to call what he was doing a blockade since it would imply the Confederacy was a nation, and thus might lead to recognition by other nations. The FACT is that Hamas declared WAR on Israel. So whatever Israel does is legal under the rules of warfare in keeping a blockade. That Hamas is so stupid as to start this war is their own fault, and they are doubly stupid if they think that any sane person would side with them just because they are smaller.
Collective punishment was used by the Germans in the occupied countries when the resistance forces killed German soldiers or sabotaged something. That was used on people who had nothing to do with the action except that they were citizens of that nation. There was no force or government there other than the Germans. That is NOT the case in Gaza since Hamas is the government and that government IS at war with Israel. Thus Israel has all the rights of a legal combatant to hit all areas with military means. This is just as the UN did in WWII when we bombed Germany and other nations they controlled. Denying Germany water, electricity, food, medicine, etc was NOT collective punishment! It is warfare.
Randy, that brief stated the basis for the definition and the realm of the definition, then derived a logical conclusion that is…well, logical…along with being factual. You may not have found in it most things you look for in a brief but does that mean the brief was erroneous?
What part of it?
The only conclusion that flies in the face of common sense and legal precedence is Israel’s…and yours.
The definition of occupation, in any realm of common sense, suggests a high level of control over the choices of a population. It is a word used mainly in the realm of geopolitics, wherever one state entity controls the outer/inner extent of a land.
I agree with you that generally, occupation means the inner control of the land or population, where the invading army is present within the borders. However, it does not preclude the primary understanding of CONTROL.
One minute, Israel is in Gaza proper exercising control, the next, it is at the borders exercising control…in both cases, control is exercised. In the first case, Gazans have no freedom to self rule, in the second, Gazans still have no freedom to self rule.
Do they have access to their maritime extents? No
Do they have access to their land mass extents? No
Do they have access to their airspace? No
Do they have access to their resources? No
Do they have freedom of movement? No
There you go, by all INTERNATIONAL agreements, rules and the consensus of nations, that is occupation.
And please, stop repeating the canard that Hamas declared war on Israel. I understand you must keep repeating it because that is on which revolves your whole fallacy, however, either hamas is self-sovereign enough to declare war, and therefore it means its fate is not controlled by Israel, or Israel legitimately has the right to control the fate of gazans, which means that it does control it, which means, logically, that gaza is not sovereign, which undermines your whole argument.
Which one is it?
International laws do not recognize declaration of war from a non-state entity, that makes no sense!
If Israel does NOT recognize Hamas as a legal entity, why would it recognize its “”declaration of war”?
If you don’t recognize Hamas as a legal entity, as the true representative of the Gazan population, why would you recognize its “”declaration of war”?
Why would you both accept that the Gazan population should pay the price for the actions of a ruling entity that is illegitimate?
How can you both deny the right of Gazans to self-govern AND punish them for their self-governance?
Whatever Israel is doing is ILLEGAL under the rules of warfare. Either support your argument with proper cites or drop it. Repeating it ad nauseum won’t make it be so.
Comparing Gaza to Germany is so silly it does not deserve a response. Such fallacious argument is its own response.
po,You may not have found in it most things you look for in a brief but does that mean the brief was erroneous?
That says it all since it makes no sense. Thus simply saying things you take to be true does NOT cut it in legal briefs. You cite laws, treaties, precedents that are relevant.
I agree with you that generally, occupation means the inner control of the land or population, where the invading army is present within the borders. THAT is the definition and trying to stretch it to agree with your distorted view to suit the conditions is wrong. The FACT is that Israel does NOT control all the borders since Egypt controls the other.
International laws do not recognize declaration of war from a non-state entity, that makes no sense!
That is truly amazing since you have never heard of Al Qeda, ISIS, and all the other groups the US is fighting against. They all have declared war on the US and have acted on it. One cannot forget about the Confederacy in our history in that vein which I cited many times as well. Hamas has the virtue of at least having a territory, and government which functions in Gaza so it makes NO difference if they have diplomatic recognition or not. It is obvious that you are either confused or simply reaching for straws or are stupid.
I think that Israel should apply the rules of siege warfare and cut off all food, water, electricity, etc.. to Gaza. They can appeal to Egypt to get those supplies then or produce their own. Israel does not control that border, Hamas does on the Gaza side.There is no rule of law which says that Israel has to support its enemies who are engaged in killing them. The ones who are doing that are NOT individuals acting against Israel, but the government of Hamas itself. It makes as much sense as to demand that the UN should not have starved the Germans in WWII.
randyjet you stated. “International laws does not recognize declaration of war from a non-state entity, that makes no sense!”.
_________________
Under your logic that would have then placed our founding fathers Declaration of Independence exempt from being protected by international law.
As I have commented a time of two “The Law of Nations”, the foundation of international law, fails to recognize that nation states do not have rights, but only operational privileges granted to it by the governed. What happens when the governed (the majority) are no longer being served by those in power and the political system fails at correcting the problems.
This is what is happening right now throughout much of the world and one of the reasons why the world is currently having so much conflict.
Most nation states have been created by conquest over another or by physical rebellion by those being governed. If this is the only feasible method of becoming a nation state, then you would see why there is so much violent conflict. Not only do we have the nation states themselves trying to manipulate one another, you also have the governed fighting back against both their own government but also of foreign governments.
Using your logic thus does not provide a non-violent remedy and as we know under domestic law, you have some form of tyranny or injustice, when no remedy is provided by law.
The bottom line, Randy, is this simple. There are plenty of international legal consensus and UN resolutions dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue, which are continuously breached by israel, abetted in that by us.
To say that there are no laws, treaties and precedents that deal with this issue is not only disingenuous but a downright lie. Other than Israel and the US, most countries around the globe have, at some point or another, called on Israel to abide by those resolutions. Even the US have threatened Israel with failing to support it before the global outcry, so either you have been asleep for a while or are just refusing to see the truth.
The international legal reasoning that helped create Israel is the same one that Israel has been breaching since and the same one that is calling on Israel to respect those resolutions.
Okay, israel does not control the Egyptian border, I give you that (notwithstanding the fact that Egypt is a proxy IDF in this case, since us, the US, support Egypt in exchange for maintaining a peace treaty with Israel that includes the hemming in of Gaza in that border where Israel has no access). We still are faced with the same problem however, which is the one of CONTROL, Egypt controls nothing of Gaza, only its border with Gaza. Israel controls Gaza, even from the border.
That state is easily infirmed by answering yes to any of the following questions:
Do they have access to their maritime extents? No
Do they have access to their land mass extents? No
Do they have access to their airspace? No
Do they have access to their natural resources? No
Do they have freedom of movement? No
Do they have access to the international market? No
Do they have access to their monetary earnings/ remittances? No
And which entity is the SOLE entity causing all those no’s? Yes, Israel! There is your occupation.
There are plenty of legal briefs around undermining your, and Israel’s, argument.
Both of you are arguing from a personal and emotional stance, for you have no legal or logical argument to offer.
If I am mistaken, please provide your legal argument.
po – you have missed the entire connection between the Nazis and the Grand Mufti. He wanted the Nazis to bring in an extermination camp to Palestine so they could rid it of Jews. You also forget the number of Nazis who used the ‘rat line’ to escape to Egypt where they became advisers to Nasser.
Paul, who writes your jokes, Bibi Netanyanhu?
He came out recently with the same revision of history, but after a swift outcry, he walked it back.
I am waiting to see how soon before you walk yours back!
Thank God you no longer are allowed to teach history.
-po – your ad hominem attacks are getting old. I am retired, I no longer want to teach.
As for the Grand Mufti, here is the Wikipedia article. It really whitewashes him, but it has enough highlights you can see where it is going.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
Here is about a conversation the Mufti had with Hitler to get an extermination program going in Palestine.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html
Paul, apologies if I offended you, it’s just, I am just… I just cannot accept emotionally, though I believe you intellectually, that someone with such poor grasp of history would be able to ride the teaching bench all the way to retirement.
I mean, you understand why I keep assuming you have been fired, right?
po – so you are such a historian about Palestine and Islam that you do not know about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his connection to the Nazis. Or the connection of the Nazis and Egypt. Or that the Werewolf Nazis are the prototype for the current terrorists of Islam.
Paul C
Arguing with po or trying to reason with him is useless. He’s too busy cheering on two more adherents to the Religion of Peace, dressed in black, tactical outfits, opening fire with AK-47 weapons and planting bombs. Like the MSM, he will try to explain this away as a gun problem or a mental health issue, when everyone knows what this is–another, in a long line of Islamic-inspired terror episodes. A sudden and inexplicable mental health snap? Right. The Muslim lunatic, along with his bearded wife, suddenly left the party, acquired black, tactical outfits, purchased AK-47 weapons and secured some bombs. You’re tilting at windmills, Paul C.
Sorry po, but the onus is on YOU to cite international law,and precedents of legal courts. You have not done so, and citing General Assembly resolutions is NOT law by the way. It is useless as is any declaration by NGOs.
You like to deny that Hamas is at war with Israel which is pure BS. Even Hamas admits that and which is why they continue to make and fire rockets into Israel, committing a WAR CRIME by the way. But you try and justify that war crime saying it is OK and understandable.
We also need to remember how the parties got to this point. Arafat and Barak after their sojourn at Camp David met again after their return at Barak’s home and worked out a final plan as put forward by Barak at Camp David. PBS had a documentary on this meeting by the way. The problem was that Israeli elections were coming up and Hamas and others were determined to destroy any chance for this agreement and went on a campaign of suicide bombings to enable Netanyahu to win and scuttle the agreement. The combined force of Shin Bet, CIA, and the PA security forces could not stop the bombings. That resulted in Barak’s loss and the end of any chance for the two sides to come to a modus vivendi. Hamas also won the PA elections with a minority of the vote of 44%. Elections have consequences. Thus both sides voted for war, and they now have it. Before Gaza had full access to everything and a functioning airport. One cannot seriously think that ANY nation can sit by and let another nation or group have control over some territory and use it for attacks against it without serious consequences. Hamas is the one responsible for the state of Gaza by their actions.
randyjet
1, November 29, 2015 at 6:05 pm
po You are obviously obtuse since you cannot understand the FACT that along with building tunnels, Hamas COULD AND SHOULD build SHELTERS for the civilians if they were concerned at all about their lives. They manage to do that for their leaders by the way. That Gaza is an entity legal or otherwise is a fact. You have not given any cite as to your assertion that Gaza is an occupied country or area. ALL you have is YOUR saying it is so. If Israel is occupying Gaza, then Egypt is also occupying Gaza since they do the same as Israel. How do you get around THAT fact? Not only that, but Egypt allows LESS into Gaza than Israel. Egypt and Israel have every right and a DUTY to control their borders and what goes in and out through them.
randy, there is NO way you can be serious, I fell for it , you were joking all along and pulling my leg! There is NO way you can be serious!
I am speechless!
You want Hamas to build tunnels for shelter for 1.8 m people?
When Hamas cannot rebuild Gaza when destroyed by Israelis?
When Hamas cannot provide enough electricity, or gas, or water, or sewage system, or food, or medicine?
When Hamas cannot often pay its civil servants because Israel does not let the money through?
When the tunnels are being destroyed by Egypt and Israel as fast as they are built?
Don’t you think that were Hamas able to build tunnels to shelter the Gaza population, Hamas would be able to at least provide them with enough food, electricity and shelter to make their lives a little bit better?
You can’t serious!
Here is the most complete legal study I have found stating why gaza is still occupied.
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8807/is-gaza-still-occupied-and-why-does-it-matter
As for elections, once again you refuse to say that the majority of voters did NOT vote for Hamas. That is reflected in the 44 % of the vote that they got. That means that while they did get a plurality, and formed a government in the PA, they most certainly did NOT have the majority in the voting. Just as W Bush won the election in 2000, but got fewer votes than Gore. Then Hamas launched its coup against Fatah in Gaza by throwing the leader of Fatah off a high building and murdering Fatah supporters. How is that fighting Israel by murdering the opposition? They also started imposing Sharia law in Gaza and murdered the one Christian owner of a bookstore in Gaza and destroyed his shop. To say that Hamas is a necessary evil is absurd. That reminds me of the apologists for Hitler in the 30s who pointed out Hitler was just trying to redress legitimate grievances Germany had. Hamas would exist with or without Israel being in existence. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, Hamas would still remain and stay in power as the Iranian religious dictators do. Hamas is a fascist movement, and as such it deserves all the forchamas imposign shariah law in gazae that can be brought against it by any means. In that fight, I am on the side of Israel and the US against Hamas. Think that Hamas can or will ever hold another free election? For the sake of argument, let us assume Hamas wins, and Israel goes away. What do you think will happen? Think that they will let all people live together in peace and respect their differences? Think that Jews and Christians will be welcome to live in peace? We ALL know the answer to that one since we get to see how they operate now.
Okay, I stand corrected, yes, the majority of voters did not vote for Hamas, but it is just another red herring, as hamas won the elections fair and square. That does not negate my argument but does negate yours. To bring in Israeli elections again, or French, or American, of Turkish, or Greek… none of those current governments won a majority of the vote, does that negate their win?
How did hamas launch a coup when Fatah was the one setting up the coup against it? Why would Hamas cause a coup when they won the elections? Why are you backing up from your initial agreement that hamas reacted to a coup, although, as you say, it took advantage of it to secure complete power?
Unless you are confusing Hamas with Fatah?
Good to note the “started” you used. yes, they started to impose shariah law, but backed off after the population rebelled. What’s your point? Is that an added strike against them? Are you looking for anythign to hang on them? Ain’t that intellectually dishonest?
As for killing the Christian bookstore owner? Unknown assailants”!. The murder was denounced by Hamas. How do you know it was Hamas?
Where do you get your facts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Teacher%27s_Bookshop
Your whole argument rests on the fact that you have no argument against Hamas, other than an emotional one. The attempt of trying to figure out what hamas will be like wen Israel goes is actually answered in your “Hamas started to establish sharia law”…started…the population refused, didn’t they? As they voted for hamas, so can they vote for another entity. Until Israel goes however, it is just another straw man argument, akin to the one we face here that states that with gay marriage legal, bestiality will too be legal.”
I do know you are siding with Israel, a racist, half theocratic state where only Jews have their marriage recognized, where Blacks and arabs are second and third rate citizens…where women, orthodox women are second class citizens too…where the political and religious leaders openly call for the massacre of the Arabs…where arabs women and children are denied rights and imprisoned and tortured without cause or representation… yep, you are on the side of the bully, and it suggest that you would have been on the side of the nazis too, and too accused the Jewish resistance of fascism!
po I read the so called lawyer brief on the definition of occupation and it was silly. It lacks any cites of law, and it ignores reality. If a nation being able to go where ever it wants using military force defines an area or nation as being under occupation by that ability, then Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria are occupied territories too. That is silly. A better example clarifying occupation would be the occupied area of France under the Vichy regime. The Germans DID occupy the northern part of France while the south was not under occupation. The same is true of Gaza where Israel does not hold power. Thus the occupying power, Germany was NOT free to use the laws of warfare to control that area. Likewise Gaza after the elections and Hamas coup against Fatah and the PA, resulted in a new country in effect which declared war on Israel. The problem with your idea of Gaza being occupied is that Israel DOES NOT control all of its borders. Egypt does control the other border. So does Egypt become an occupying power then too since they are even more restrictive than Israel?
One does not have to make a subway system for civil defense either. All that is required is some tools, cement. Each home could construct a simple shelter below grade. I also get a laugh out of the justification for the tunnels since you and other refuse to acknowledge the FACT that the main things coming through the tunnels are high explosives, arms, and ammunition. THAT is never mentioned in the pro Hamas folks writings. Only medicines, food and the like ever come in. So Egypt is also an occupying force since they allow LESS than Israel. The reason that Gaza is not occupied is and that the blockade is legitimate is that Hamas is the de facto government there, and thus is an active armed combatant with Israel. The collective punishment ban is applied to the areas under Nazi rule where they were using mass murder to justify their use of force. Those areas HAD German soldiers there on the street, and the Nazis had an effective police force.
The lawyers brief stated the obvious and realized that Hamas is the government and power in Gaza after the coup. According to the IRC, Grants siege of Vicksburg would be illegal as would Lincoln’s blockade of the southern states. Lincoln had to wrestle with the announcement since it would signify that the Confederate government was in fact just that, and that the UK could open the way to Southern states having a legal basis on which Europeans could send men and aid since the Confederacy was a legitimate government.
randyjet, no offense but Israel really doesn’t deserve to be a nation. It can’t survive without it’s big brother, the U.S. giving it hundreds of $billion in foreign aid and private donations over the years and it can’t stop fighting with it’s neighbors. It’s like a spoiled child living off mommy and daddy. U.S. taxpayers are just being scammed, cheated and stolen from by the Zionists. Israel has done nothing except cause our world more hardship and war. Why should we support it anymore? Give us some valid reasons.
It is only a country of 8.5 million people and it has receives over $120 billion in foreign aid since the 1950s. No wonder you guys embrace socialism so much.
http://israeliside.com/2014/08/palestinians-have-perfected-propaganda-war-brigitte-gabriel/
Who better to know?
Nick, what happened to the courage you used to display in your forward attacks? Now you are more into passive-aggressiveness and sideways jabs! You have turned from IDF to Hamas!
I sure miss the old Nick, the one who would not bow before any threat of banishment 🙂
Propaganda 101.
And speaking of justification, please justify this:
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Two new resources: Timeline of Israeli escalation in Gaza and Israel’s history of breaking ceasefires
The Institute for Middle East Understanding has released two useful resources on the current Israeli attack on Gaza. The first presents a timeline of events and the second outlines Israel’s history of breaking ceasefires.
TIMELINE: ISRAEL’S LATEST ESCALATION IN GAZA
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 8
Following a two-week lull in violence, Israeli soldiers invade Gaza. In the resulting exchange of gunfire with Palestinian fighters, a 12-year-old boy is killed by an Israeli bullet while he plays soccer.
Shortly afterwards, Palestinian fighters blow up a tunnel along the Gaza-Israel frontier, injuring one Israeli soldier.
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10
An anti-tank missile fired by Palestinian fighters wounds four Israeli soldiers driving in a jeep along the Israel-Gaza boundary.
An Israeli artillery shell lands in a soccer field in Gaza killing two children, aged 16 and 17. Later, an Israeli tank fires a shell at a tent where mourners are gathered for a funeral, killing two more civilians, and wounding more than two dozen others.
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 11
One Palestinian civilian is killed and dozens more wounded in Israeli attacks. Four Israeli civilians are also injured as a result of projectiles launched from Gaza, according to the Israeli government.
During an Israeli government cabinet meeting, Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz urges the government to “cut off the head of the snake… take out the leadership of Hamas in Gaza.” He also calls for a cutting off of water, food, electricity, and fuel shipments to Gaza’s 1.7 million people.
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12
Palestinian militant factions agree to a truce if Israel ends its attacks.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14
Israel breaks two days of calm by assassinating Ahmed Jabari, the head of Hamas’ military wing. According to reports, at least eight other Palestinians are killed in Israeli attacks, including at least two children. Palestinian militant groups vow to respond.
FACT SHEET – Self-Defense or Provocation?: Israel’s History of Breaking Ceasefires
Since Israel’s creation in 1948, Israeli political and military leaders have demonstrated a pattern of repeatedly violating ceasefires with their enemies in order to gain military advantage, for territorial aggrandizement, or to provoke their opponents into carrying out acts of violence that Israel can then exploit politically and/or use to justify military operations already planned.
The following fact sheet provides a brief overview of some of the most high profile and consequential ceasefire violations committed by the Israeli military over the past six decades.
2012 – On November 14, two days after Palestinian factions in Gaza agree to a truce following several days of violence, Israel assassinates the leader of Hamas’ military wing, Ahmed Jabari, threatening to escalate the violence once again after a week in which at least six Palestinian civilians are killed and dozens more wounded in Israeli attacks.
2012 – On March 9, Israel violates an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire and assassinates the head of the Gaza-based Popular Resistance Committees, sparking another round of violence in which at least two-dozen Palestinians are killed, including at least four civilians, and scores more wounded. As usual, Israel claims it is acting in self-defense, against an imminent attack being planned by the PRC, while providing no evidence to substantiate the allegation.
Following the assassination, Israeli journalist Zvi Bar’el writes in Haaretz newspaper:
‘It is hard to understand what basis there is for the assertion that Israel is not striving to escalate the situation. One could assume that an armed response by the Popular Resistance Committees or Islamic Jihad to Israel’s targeted assassination was taken into account. But did anyone weigh the possibility that the violent reaction could lead to a greater number of Israeli casualties than any terrorist attack that Zuhair al-Qaisi, the secretary-general of the Popular Resistance Committees, could have carried out?
‘In the absence of a clear answer to that question, one may assume that those who decided to assassinate al-Qaisi once again relied on the “measured response” strategy, in which an Israeli strike draws a reaction, which draws an Israeli counter-reaction.’
Just over two months prior, on the third anniversary of Operation Cast Lead, Israeli army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz tells Israel’s Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon to restore its power of “deterrence,” and that the assault must be “swift and painful,” concluding, “We will act when the conditions are right.”
2011 – On October 29, Israel breaks a truce that has maintained calm for two months, killing five Islamic Jihad members in Gaza, including a senior commander. The following day, Egypt brokers another truce that Israel proceeds to immediately violate, killing another four IJ members. In the violence, a total of nine Palestinians and one Israeli are killed.
2008 – In November, Israel violates a ceasefire with Hamas and other Gaza-based militant groups that has been in place since June, launching an operation that kills six Hamas members. Militant groups respond by launching rockets into southern Israel, which Israel shortly thereafter uses to justify Operation Cast Lead, its devastating military assault on Gaza beginning on December 27. Over the next three weeks, the Israeli military kills approximately 1400 Palestinians, most of them civilians, including more than 300 children. A UN Human Rights Council Fact Finding Mission led by South African jurist Richard Goldstone subsequently concludes that both Israel and Hamas committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during the fighting, a judgment shared by human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
2002 – On July 23, hours before a widely reported ceasefire declared by Hamas and other Palestinian groups is scheduled to come into effect, Israel bombs an apartment building in the middle of the night in the densely populated Gaza Strip in order to assassinate Hamas leader Salah Shehada. Fourteen civilians, including nine children, are also killed in the attack, and 50 others wounded, leading to a scuttling of the ceasefire and a continuation of violence.
2002 – On January 14, Israel assassinates Raed Karmi, a militant leader in the Fatah party, following a ceasefire agreed to by all Palestinian militant groups the previous month, leading to its cancellation. Later in January, the first suicide bombing by the Fatah linked Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade takes place.
2001 – On November 23, Israel assassinates senior Hamas militant Mahmoud Abu Hanoud. At the time, Hamas was adhering to an agreement made with PLO head Yasser Arafat not to attack targets inside of Israel. Following the killing, respected Israeli military correspondent of the right-leaning Yediot Ahronot newspaper, Alex Fishman, writes in a front-page story: “We again find ourselves preparing with dread for a new mass terrorist attack within the Green Line [Israel’s pre-1967 border]… Whoever gave a green light to this act of liquidation knew full well that he is thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman’s agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority; under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near future suicide bombings inside the Green Line…” A week later, Hamas responds with bombings in Jerusalem and Haifa.
2001 – On July 25, as Israeli and Palestinian Authority security officials meet to shore up a six-week-old ceasefire, Israel assassinates a senior Hamas member in Nablus. Nine days later, Hamas responds with a suicide bombing in a Jerusalem pizzeria.
1988 – In April, Israel assassinates senior PLO leader Khalil al-Wazir in Tunisia, even as the Reagan administration is trying to organize an international conference to broker peace between Israelis and Palestinians. The US State Department condemns the murder as an “act of political assassination.” In ensuing protests in the occupied territories, a further seven Palestinians are gunned down by Israeli forces.
1982 – Following Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in June, and after PLO fighters depart Beirut under the terms of a US-brokered ceasefire, Israel violates the terms of the agreement and moves its armed forces into the western part of the city, where the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila are located. Shortly thereafter, Israeli soldiers surround the camps and send in their local Christian Phalangist allies – even though the long and bloody history between Palestinians and Phalangists in Lebanon is well known to the Israelis, and despite the fact that the Phalangists’ leader, Bashir Gemayel, has just been assassinated and Palestinians are rumored (incorrectly) to be responsible. Over the next three days, between 800 and 3500 Palestinian refugees, mostly women and children left behind by the PLO fighters, are butchered by the Phalangists as Israeli soldiers look on. In the wake of the massacre, an Israeli commission of inquiry, the Kahan Commission, deems that Israeli Defense Minister (and future Prime Minister) Ariel Sharon bears “personal responsibility” for the slaughter.
1981-2 – Under Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel repeatedly violates a nine-month-old UN-brokered ceasefire with the PLO in Lebanon in an effort to provoke a response that will justify a large-scale invasion of the country that Sharon has been long planning. When PLO restraint fails to provide Sharon with an adequate pretext, he uses the attempted assassination of Israel’s ambassador to England to justify a massive invasion aimed at destroying the PLO – despite the fact that Israeli intelligence officials believe the PLO has nothing to do with the assassination attempt. In the ensuing invasion, more than 17,000 Lebanese are killed.
1973 – Following a ceasefire agreement arranged by the US and the Soviet Union to end the Yom Kippur War, Israel violates the agreement with a “green light” from US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. According to declassified US documents, Kissinger tells the Israelis they can take a “slightly longer” time to adhere to the truce. As a result, Israel launches an attack and surrounds the Egyptian Third Army, causing a major diplomatic crisis between the US and Soviets that pushes the two superpowers to the brink of nuclear war, with the Soviets threatening to intervene to save their Egyptian allies and the US issuing a Defcon III nuclear alert.
1967 – Israel violates the 1949 Armistice Agreement, launching a surprise attack against Egypt and Syria. Despite claims Israel is acting in self-defense against an impending attack from Egypt, Israeli leaders are well aware that Egypt poses no serious threat. Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of the General Staff of the Israeli army during the war, says in a 1968 interview that “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.” And former Prime Minister Menachem Begin later admits that “Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
1956 – Colluding with Britain and France, Israel violates the 1949 Armistice Agreement by invading Egypt and occupying the Sinai Peninsula. Israel only agrees to withdraw following pressure from US President Dwight Eisenhower.
1949 – Immediately after the UN-brokered Armistice Agreement between Israel and its neighbors goes into effect, the armed forces of the newly-created Israeli state begin violating the truce with encroachments into designated demilitarized zones and military attacks that claim numerous civilian casualties.
You most certainly DO justify murder, mayhem, and oppression in all of your posts(1). You also like to tell only one side and refuse to acknowledge FACTS that go against your view (2). The prime example being that Gaza is an occupied territory under Israeli control(3). You like to think that the rest of us cannot read simple maps which shows that EGYPT must also be an occupying power in Gaza if Israel is(4). Is Egypt an occupying power in Gaza? The only thing Egypt wants is for Hamas to return the border to the control of the PA, and abide by the accords which established the removal of the IDF from there.(5) THAT is what is required of Egypt and the PA. So you justify any and all attacks by Hamas no matter the targets.(6) That is not being humanitarian. You also have to police your own side by the way. You also want Egypt to violate the terms of its peace treaty with Israel in favor of Hamas, who as you know is an illegitimate regime in Gaza.(7)
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1/2/3- I will not argue your case for you, just as you are not arguing my case for me. that’s a silly argument. I have acknowledged that hamas does target civilians, and that targeting civilians, even with ineffective weapons is terrorism. if it is terrorism for Hams however, it is 10 times terrorism for Israel based on all the international laws yous seem to support, based not only on their role as occupying power, but also as better armed power. that simple!
4/5/6- that’s another stupid argument. Egypt is a sovereign country which can stop people coming through its borders. They are not imposing anything upon the gazans. they do not have a say in what happens IN Gaza. Israel does. it controls the land, the air and the water. it blocks the Gazans from fishing outside of 3 miles ranges and shoots them. It is an effective and illegal blockade by ALL INTERNATIONAL RULES.
The money that comes from international trade and other sources goes through Israeli hands, which holds on to it, as it did when all the Palestinian factions formed a unity government, once again, against all international laws.
Israel is t he one who gets determien how much food to let into gaza so “people don’t die but starve”. they control how much buildign mamterial comes in, and how much medicine comes in. THEY ARE AN OCCUPYING POWER ACCORDING TO ALL LEGAL DEFINITIONS.
And what say should Egypt have between gaza and Israel?Why would it want anything? Why would it support the PA? Nothing is required from the PA AS IT IS NO LONGER THE RULING FACTION IN GAZA, FOR IT LOST DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS TO HAMAS. Why can’t you get that simple fact?
Paul C. Schulte
1, November 26, 2015 at 3:30 am
po – methinks thou do protest to much.
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Badge of honor, Paul, those of us who are true humanists rise up and complain much against injustice.
We don’t justify murder, mayhem and oppression.
maybe one day Paul, one day…
You most certainly DO justify murder, mayhem, and oppression in all of your posts. You also like to tell only one side and refuse to acknowledge FACTS that go against your view. The prime example being that Gaza is an occupied territory under Israeli control. You like to think that the rest of us cannot read simple maps which shows that EGYPT must also be an occupying power in Gaza if Israel is. Is Egypt an occupying power in Gaza? The only thing Egypt wants is for Hamas to return the border to the control of the PA, and abide by the accords which established the removal of the IDF from there. THAT is what is required of Egypt and the PA. So you justify any and all attacks by Hamas no matter the targets. That is not being humanitarian. You also have to police your own side by the way. You also want Egypt to violate the terms of its peace treaty with Israel in favor of Hamas, who as you know is an illegitimate regime in Gaza.
randyjet
1, November 29, 2015 at 9:06 am
po, I see that you are not too smart as well as being ignorant or thinking that I am a fool too. First off, Hamas could construct underground shelters as ALL the nations in WWII did.
You can’t be serious, randy!!! Do you not know what is Gaza is like? Do you not know that it is closed on 3 sides by Israel and side by Egypt?
Do you not know that the tunnels are surreptitiously built, and Israel has made it a point to destroy any gazan tunnel they can find? How many tunnels can Hamas build? With what means? And how many can it build before they are discovered and bombed? And are you saying thses tunnels did not exist before Hams came to power? Reflects your ignorance! Are you serious?
Do you not know that one of main reasons for recent Israeli attacks on gaza was in order to destroy as many tunnels as they could? [The efforts are part of the IDF Southern Command initiative to fortify defenses in the Gaza border area. Last week, the head of the IDF’s Northern Command and former head of Military Intelligence, Maj.-Gen. Aviv Kochavi warned that Israel must expect many future rounds of fighting with its enemies following Operation Protective Edge.
Kochavi said the 50-day war against Hamas last summer – was “one round of fighting, and many more will follow it.”
The IDF is working on a new tunnel detection system, which has made some progress in recent months.
In January, an IDF source revealed that the system was being designed to provide real time alerts on terrorists digging attack tunnels, to thwart Hamas’s subterranean cross-border network – repeatedly used to send Hamas cells into Israel. That’s from the Jerusalem post.
Do you not know that oen of the first thing the Egyptian dictator Al Sisi did was to destroy the Hamas tunnels that brought in goods from Egypt, at the urging of the US?
What other nation from WW2 has a situation comparable to gaza?
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The FACT is that prior to Hamas winning a plurality, NOT A MAJORITY, of the vote, Gaza was relatively peaceful and had trade with Israel, had a functioning airport. Thanks to the stupidity of Bush and Rice, Hamas only got 43% of the total vote, Fatah main party got 41% and the rest split between anti-Hamas groups. They got a disproportionate share of the delegates through the electoral system since Fatah had multiple candidates running for the same seat, splitting votes. Bush and Rice knew this, but went ahead to demand the vote at the time. So to try and tell us that Hamas is the majority is an outright LIE. Then to compound the lie, you overlook or make an excuse for the coup that Hamas made in Gaza which resulted in Hamas imposing its DICTATORSHIP on that part. I see that you used the term routed the PA to somehow justify this dictatorship. The people of Gaza have no means of removing Hamas from power now. So save your crap about the will of the people for those who are more gullible.
randy, come one, you are arguing a red herring! This is what I said:[Regarding hamas’ coup, have you forgotten the timeline of the events? That Bush insisted on elections, which Hamas won fair and square, which did not suit the powers that be (US and Israel) who then armed fatah to go after Hamas, which acted preemptively and removed the danger.
I agree that they used the occasion to remove all the challenges and establish themselves very strongly in Gaza but …politics?
Once again, Hamas WON elections that were forced upon them, the Gazan people voted FOR Hamas.
The people who pushed for those elections, realizing their mistake, armed the other party to make a (armed, violent) coup in order to remove a democratically elected group from power. Hamas took measures to prevent the coup and to consolidate power. And yet they are the bad guys? In what (il)logic? In what world????!!!!
if the democrats refused to abdicate power when Gore “lost”to Bush then took up arms against the government, what would the republicans have done? Yes, disarm them, including murdering those resisting, shuttering the democratic party and instating a state of emergency. How does it differ from what hamas did, minus the state of emergency?
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It is also a LIE to state that Israel is an occupying power in Gaza since they removed all of their troops and people from there. Thus Gaza is simply a rebel part of a nation at war with Israel, and they fall under the rules of warfare. Israel does not have a police or any other presence on the ground as they do in the West Bank. Thus the West Bank IS occupied territory, while Gaza is NOT.
randy, you are so way off factually that it is hurting to following your logical contortions. You obviously missed it but the article I linked to earlier addressed that falsity very effectively. Here it is again:
2) Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Israel argues that its occupation of the Gaza Strip ended with the unilateral withdrawal of its settler population in 2005. It then declared the Gaza Strip to be “hostile territory” and declared war against its population. Neither the argument nor the statement is tenable. Despite removing 8,000 settlers and the military infrastructure that protected their illegal presence, Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations. To date, Israel maintains control of the territory’s air space, territorial waters, electromagnetic sphere, population registry and the movement of all goods and people.
Israel argues that the withdrawal from Gaza demonstrates that ending the occupation will not bring peace. Some have gone so far as to say that Palestinians squandered their opportunity to build heaven in order to build a terrorist haven instead. These arguments aim to obfuscate Israel’s responsibilities in the Gaza Strip, as well as the West Bank. As Prime Minister Netanyahu once explained, Israel must ensure that it does not “get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria…. I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”
Palestinians have yet to experience a day of self-governance. Israel immediately imposed a siege upon the Gaza Strip when Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006 and tightened it severely when Hamas routed Fatah in June 2007. The siege has created a “humanitarian catastrophe” in the Gaza Strip. Inhabitants will not be able to access clean water, electricity or tend to even the most urgent medical needs. The World Health Organization explains that the Gaza Strip will be unlivable by 2020. Not only did Israel not end its occupation, it has created a situation in which Palestinians cannot survive in the long-term.
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I also dislike your lie about other liberation forces in equating them with Hamas. The IRA did NOT target civilians even in their bombing campaigns, and went to great lengths to avoid such casualties by having codes that they gave police to verify a bomb plot to get innocents out of the way. The ANC in its campaign against apartheid had the same policy of hitting only military and economic targets and avoiding civilian casualties. In fact, when errors were made, they agreed that their people who went beyond their limits would ALSO be subjected to the truth commission set up after the fall of apartheid. Thus to equate those legitimate fighters with the THUGS of Hamas is offensive in the extreme!
once again, Randy, you make statements that are not borne by the facts, which enables you to derive To say that IRA did not target civilians is deceptive at best. Kidnapping a man’s family then strapping bombs on him to blow up soldiers is…what? Targeting bars and funerals was…what? Blowing up a train station is…what?
Let’s say for the sake of argument that it is true, IRA did not target civilians, what about the other groups I mentioned? the hundred of groups throughout history engaged in resistance?
And would you, again, compare the situation in gaza to the one in Ireland of South Africa? really? That’s ignorance compounded.
po, Again you evade the point by refusing to acknowledge the FACT that Hamas is building tunnels and shelters for its leaders, and NOT for its people as all nations in WWII did. Just what does tunnel building have to do with building shelters is a mystery to me and most rational people. You REFUSE address that FACT. The IDF by going after tunnels does NOT mean it goes after underground shelters!
You also refuse to understand that the majority of the Palestinians did NOT vote for Hamas. In fact, Hamas did form a government, which then had to deal with the fact that over half of the money the PA got as foreign aid stopped. The US and other donors are under NO obligation to fund a government which refuses to honor the agreements the previous government signed and are binding upon Hamas. If Hamas refuses to honor the Oslo agreements, then Israel too is free to do as it wishes in withholding payments of tax receipts. I am astounded that you support the doctrine of preemption otherwise known as a sneak attack or the Bush doctrine. That is quite amazing, since that was the excuse Israel used for starting the Six Day War. So I guess you agree that Israel was right in that case too? In short, it is BS.
I am glad you have finally broken cover to be honest about the fact you support Hamas against all enemies. Personally, I hate Hamas since they are fascists and deserve anything that come their way. Saying that Israel is an occupying power over and over again does not make it true. That is kindergarten stuff. There is no Israeli force in Gaza that would make it valid. The West Bank is another situation which is an occupation where such rules apply. Blockades are perfectly legitimate by the way as Lincoln knew and used, as are sieges. The besiegers have NO obligation to provide water and food to those inside and it is a well accepted form of warfare.
randyjet
1, November 29, 2015 at 1:27 pm
po, Again you evade the point by refusing to acknowledge the FACT that Hamas is building tunnels and shelters for its leaders, and NOT for its people as all nations in WWII did. Just what does tunnel building have to do with building shelters is a mystery to me and most rational people. You REFUSE address that FACT. The IDF by going after tunnels does NOT mean it goes after underground shelters!
Randy, I have NO idea what you are talking about. You are biting on the meat of Hamas building tunnels for is leaders, which I have never heard anywhere. Building tunnels for its leaders to do what? Go where? Into Egypt? into Israel? To hold parties? What are you talking about?
The tunnels Hamas and Palestinians of various factions build is to transport things in and out and thereby skirt the blockade by Israel. They also use it to get to Israel proper and attacks IDF soldiers. So the tunnels allow them to bring in weapons, building material and other goods and medicine.
That is why i said earlier that when Sisi came to power, yes, sisi the Egyptian dictator who did the coup that brought the military to power in Egypt, with help and cooperation of the US, that Sissy ordered a massive process of closing all the tunnels that led into egypt.
You also refuse to understand that the majority of the Palestinians did NOT vote for Hamas. In fact, Hamas did form a government, which then had to deal with the fact that over half of the money the PA got as foreign aid stopped. The US and other donors are under NO obligation to fund a government which refuses to honor the agreements the previous government signed and are binding upon Hamas. If Hamas refuses to honor the Oslo agreements, then Israel too is free to do as it wishes in withholding payments of tax receipts. I am astounded that you support the doctrine of preemption otherwise known as a sneak attack or the Bush doctrine. That is quite amazing, since that was the excuse Israel used for starting the Six Day War. So I guess you agree that Israel was right in that case too? In short, it is BS.
you are reasoning circularly. You make an assertion upon one side, I counter it by showing that it is false and that the other side is guilty of that, you use that argument to justify your first argument retroactively.
The majority of Americans did not vote for Obama, the majority of VOTERS voted for Obama. the majority of israelis did not vote for the Likud party and netanyahu, the majority of voters did. Isn’t that how democracy work? What, would you force everyone to vote now?
Why are you holding Hamas to a different standard than everybody else?
The likud party has vowed to never allow a Palestinian state, as did bibi himself? By your standard, Israel is a rogue state and therefore Hamas is justified in lobbing rockets upon them?!
Isn’t the Oslo agreements binding upon them too?
Aren’t ALL the agreements that deem further settlement building illegal binding upon Israel too?
Let me see, Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, Israel not only refuses to recognize Israel, but continues to occupy Palestinian land, gobbling it up steadily, while killing its populations without cause, and yet, Hamas is the bad guy? What world do you live in?
Do Palestinians have the right to decide upon their democratic system? yes? No?
If yes, then when Fatah and Hamas decide to constitute a unity government, why would Israel punish them by withholding tax money?
If the Gazan population decides to vote for Hamas, in elections called upon by the US and the PA, how is Israel justified in punishing gazans for electing the entity they want to represent them?
If Palestinians do not have the right to choose their system of government, then doesn’t that counter your argument that there is no occupation? it is either or, both states cannot exist simultaneously.
I do not support a doctrine of preemptive strike, I have said often enough that I do not support Hamas, that Hamas is a necessary evil, as do most Palestinians. when the PA’s rules has resulted in a status quo where more land is lost and more lives lost, Hamas sounds more and more appealing to them.
What I rail against is the demonization of the victim that takes place, where the bully, Goliath, cries because David has stones and uses them. Without the occupation, there is no Hamas, that simple!
I did not support the IRA, but I understood their plight! Nor did I support the Tamil tigers, or the kashmiri rebels, but I understood their motivations and some of their methods.
A perfect example if the Kurds and Turkey. I do not support some of the reactions of the Kurds, but I understand their plight against Turkey’s oppression.
The difference between you and me is that I am sympathetic to the victimized, not the oppressor.
I am glad you have finally broken cover to be honest about the fact you support Hamas against all enemies. Personally, I hate Hamas since they are fascists and deserve anything that come their way. Saying that Israel is an occupying power over and over again does not make it true. That is kindergarten stuff. There is no Israeli force in Gaza that would make it valid. The West Bank is another situation which is an occupation where such rules apply. Blockades are perfectly legitimate by the way as Lincoln knew and used, as are sieges. The besiegers have NO obligation to provide water and food to those inside and it is a well accepted form of warfare.
That’s BS through and through! See above for my “support”of Hamas. Your opinion matters little. I back up my arguments with facts, using both the definition of occupation and the legal consensus, the international consensus on whether or not gaza is occupied. Blockades are accepted methods of war against a sovereign entity, not against an entity that one occupies. One can’t be both occupied and a sovereign entity. Is Gaza a sovereign entity?
Gaza is blockaded from all sides, and the blockading force controls access to gaza for people,money and goods. The gazans are not self ruled because a foreign entity gets to decide every aspect of their lives, even the right to life and death. That’s occupation by any name you wish to apply to it.
Tell that narrative to international courts, and see if they agree with you.
Moreover, it is Israel that keeps taking Palestinian water and gas, along with their land, so giving them water and food is NOT the issue, just another red herring.
po You are obviously obtuse since you cannot understand the FACT that along with building tunnels, Hamas COULD AND SHOULD build SHELTERS for the civilians if they were concerned at all about their lives. They manage to do that for their leaders by the way. That Gaza is an entity legal or otherwise is a fact. You have not given any cite as to your assertion that Gaza is an occupied country or area. ALL you have is YOUR saying it is so. If Israel is occupying Gaza, then Egypt is also occupying Gaza since they do the same as Israel. How do you get around THAT fact? Not only that, but Egypt allows LESS into Gaza than Israel. Egypt and Israel have every right and a DUTY to control their borders and what goes in and out through them.
As for elections, once again you refuse to say that the majority of voters did NOT vote for Hamas. That is reflected in the 44 % of the vote that they got. That means that while they did get a plurality, and formed a government in the PA, they most certainly did NOT have the majority in the voting. Just as W Bush won the election in 2000, but got fewer votes than Gore. Then Hamas launched its coup against Fatah in Gaza by throwing the leader of Fatah off a high building and murdering Fatah supporters. How is that fighting Israel by murdering the opposition? They also started imposing Sharia law in Gaza and murdered the one Christian owner of a bookstore in Gaza and destroyed his shop. To say that Hamas is a necessary evil is absurd. That reminds me of the apologists for Hitler in the 30s who pointed out Hitler was just trying to redress legitimate grievances Germany had. Hamas would exist with or without Israel being in existence. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, Hamas would still remain and stay in power as the Iranian religious dictators do. Hamas is a fascist movement, and as such it deserves all the force that can be brought against it by any means. In that fight, I am on the side of Israel and the US against Hamas. Think that Hamas can or will ever hold another free election? For the sake of argument, let us assume Hamas wins, and Israel goes away. What do you think will happen? Think that they will let all people live together in peace and respect their differences? Think that Jews and Christians will be welcome to live in peace? We ALL know the answer to that one since we get to see how they operate now.