People across the political spectrum in Israel were disgusted recently to see others at a Jewish wedding celebrating the fire bombing of a Palestinian family and holding up a picture of 18-month-old Ali Dawabshe who was burned away in the attack. One youth was shown stabbing the picture of the baby as others danced and rejoiced. Israeli police arrested four of the men in the videotape today, though (as despicable as these extremists are) the arrests raise questions over the criminalization of speech.
The wedding of a couple from the far religious right showed people dancing with weapons and rejoicing in the deaths. The father and the baby Ali both burned to death in the attack. It took a month for the mother, Reham, to die in the hospital. She was a 27 year old teacher and had third degree burns over 90 percent of her body. Only their four-year-old son Ahmed survived with second-degree burns on more than 60 percent of his body.
The four men arrested include the groom Yakir Ashbal. What is interesting is that the lawyer representing them was one of those at what is now being called the “hate wedding” filled with extremists. Attorney Itamar Ben Gvir has insisted that a weapon shown in the videotape was a toy and that “even if it was tasteless, no crime has been committed during the dance from this perspective.” Giver would seem to have an obvious conflict in representation as a potential witness. His participation in such a hateful event also raises questions about his own moral judgment, but I fail to see how he could defend a case in which he is a witness.
Putting those ethical concerns aside, his point is still a valid one. The men were charged with “incitement to violence” and “illegal possession of weapons.” The latter charge is a factual question and not particularly troubling from a legal perceptive. The incitement charge is a concern. We have long discussed the increasing criminalization of speech. We have previously discussed the alarming rollback on free speech rights in the West, particularly in France (here and here and here and here and here and here) and England ( here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here). Much of this trend is tied to the expansion of hate speech and non-discrimination laws. We have even seen comedians targets with such court orders under this expanding and worrisome trend. (here and here).
Here you have hateful individuals celebrating and rejoicing in the death of a family, including a baby. However, what constitutes incitement and what constitutes opinion rests on a highly subjective determination. Presumably any rejoicing over the attack would encourage or incite others. This creates a slippery slope in which prosecutors can pick and chose who to arrest for unpopular speech. I find these people, including a lawyer at such a hateful event, to be disgusting and grotesque people. Yet, civil libertarians are often required to defend the least sympathetic individuals in our society. We do not need free speech to protect popular speech or individuals. The test of our convictions is our willingness to extend the same protections to those whom we despise.
While Israel does not have the same free speech protections as the United States, it is the country with the most such protections in this region. If there are gun charges to be brought, I say bring them. However, the incitement charges raise deep concerns over how speech is regulated or prosecuted by the government.
What do you think?
So what’s the difference between private third party possession of child pornography and this particular case? (In re. freedom of speech)
BTW JIC…I find both abhorrent and children pornography. As for definition: “I know it when I see it.” So, I hope do the rest of you.
“The laws and rights/freedoms which are man made and given by mankind to itself will be clarified against these actions of this scum.”
isaac,
Try as you like, you will never permanently separate human beings from their natural rights. Eventually your regressive ideology will push too far and the people will self-correct. Unlike those cultures that have never had a taste of true freedom, we have. And deep down beneath the layers of progressivism exists the spirit of liberty and freedom that defines the true nature of our nation. We’ll either dig ourselves out before a revolution or after; either way we will ultimately prevail.
@Dust Bunny Queen
1, December 30, 2015 at 10:20 am
“War is a terrible thing and the deaths that result should not be celebrated or be rejoiced. Anyone who doesn’t feel the pain of killing his/her enemy and instead celebrates it has really lost their humanity.”
I find it quite interesting that you can categorize an 18-month old child as “the enemy.”
Dust Bunny Queen
1, December 30, 2015 at 11:21 am
“Never ever did anyone that I knew express joy or happiness or satisfaction over the killing of the enemy. To do so would be inhumane and I’m glad I never met anyone like this.
This is why the fanatical Islamic extremist and extremist of ANY kind are so frightening. They are not human anymore.”
You should avoid travel to Israel, then, as you’re quite likely to meet people expressing “joy, happiness, or satisfaction over the killing of the enemy.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html
🙂
“However, what constitutes incitement and what constitutes opinion rests on a highly subjective determination.”
It is this subjective determination that is the umbrella under which the ‘law’ or ‘freedoms’ are protected. The actions of these scum will be determined in the courts of Israel. The laws and rights/freedoms which are man made and given by mankind to itself will be clarified against these actions of this scum.
Absolute does not exist. The desire for absolute does, however, and that is where the problems lie. The fact that Israel saw fit to illustrate how disgusting this ‘free speech’ is by arresting the scum is a stronger statement than allowing them to continue protected by the ideological absolute of ‘freedom of speech’.
When all is said and done mankind is better for doing whatever it can to crush this sort of free speech.
If you do not celebrate the death of Jesus Christ (Hey Zeus) then why pray over the death device?
If Israel would not suffer a net negative in scorn from its Western cuckold (USSA), they would long ago have elected the murderer of Judaic Menachem Begin to lifelong President.
The Talmud is the unequivocal maximum holiest of all Judaic holy books. The Talmud prohibits Judaics from shaking hands w/goyim. But Orthodox Judaic ex-Senator Joseph Leiberman has of course been seen and photographed many times shaking hands w/goyim. How can this be? Because the Talmud has loopholes such as this: in cases where Judaics live in areas populated by goyim, where Judaics lack enough political power, in cases where Judaics would suffer persecution from goyim for obeying Talmudic Law, in these cases Judaics are allowed to disobey the Law.
But, if Judaics later carry enough sway that they would not suffer persecution for obeying Talmudic Law, in these cases the loophole closes and Judaics must follow the Law.
The Talmud also prohibits Judaic medical doctors from treating goyim on the Sabbath, but again, the loophole applies, at least for now.
/ignore
DBQ, ignoring means not responding…once you reply, you are not ignoring 🙂
You should have stopped at this :””Anyone who doesn’t feel the pain of killing his/her enemy and instead celebrates it has really lost their humanity.””
That was perfect…the moment you linked me to these evil beasts however( anyone who celebrates the murder of innocent human beings or supports /excuse such behavior) you went off the deep end. I have never supported the murder of anyone, no matter which side, ever.
I am willing hereby to reiterate that I fully condemn any violence, whether emotional or physical inflicted upon anyone, especially upon civilians and defenseless population, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, and I condemn it even more strongly coming from Muslims…according to these Islamic principles:
O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well… for your guidance in the battlefield! Do not commit treachery, or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy’s flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
I do challenge all of you, especially those who claim faith and the moral edge, to make the same condemnation of violence and extremism from ANY SIDE!
Let the record show, for posterity, he who supports from she who condemns.
By the way, DBQ “…War is a terrible thing…”, this is not war. This family was neither armed nor on a battlefield. They are civilians living under occupation…asleep…in their house…at night… doused with fluid and set afire…
Stating “war”justifies it…a lil’bit…lil’bit!
And lest we lose the timeline…the suspects are known “…but there is difficulty in putting them on trial. I hope that we’ll find the evidence necessary in order to bring the perpetrator [sic] of this heinous attack to justice.”
According to Haaretz, Yaalon “also noted that the perpetrators belong to a group of Jewish extremists that intended to increase tension in the West Bank. Therefore, said Ya’alon, the decision was made to put Jewish suspects in administrative detention, in order to prevent future attacks.”
Witnesses had seen the attackers flee to the nearby Israeli settlement of Maaleh Efraim after the Dawabsha home was set on fire.
Three Jewish settlers, Meir Ettinger, Mordechai Meyer and Eviatar Slonim, have been held without charge since the attack for allegedly plotting and carrying out other violent attacks against Palestinians. But it is unknown if any of them are among the suspects referred to by Yaalon.
Following the attack on the Dawabsha family and intense international condemnation, Netanyahu vowed to find the killers.
But he did not order the army to go on the sort of destructive rampage meted out against Palestinians after the June 2014 abduction and killing of three Israeli youths in the occupied West Bank.
In that case, Israel carried out the extrajudicial murders of two Palestinians it claimed were behind the abductions and the collective punishment of their families by destroying their homes.
Who are they protecting?
It would also not be the first time settlers have gotten away with burning Palestinians alive.
The settlers, just like the army, are an extension of the Israeli settler-colonial state that always protects its own and that glorifies the terrorists and ethnic cleansers who established it.
Let the record shows that I am the only one of this group so far who condemned terrorism by ALL parties without reservation. Everyone else added a BUT…and yet they are ones decrying moral equivalency in others??????
Hypocrites 🙂
——————————
karen said to Po:
Do you consider crashing a van deliberately into a civilian bus stop, hitting people, and then jumping out with a knife to stab a woman with a baby a terrorist attack? Yes or now. And this time answer the question.
Po answered:
yes, I do!
HAHAHAHAHAha…here come the hypocrites!
What is the commonality between many of these posts? The same thing that always happens, blaming others for the crime of some….
DBQ attacks me BEFORE I say anything. The moral equivalency you decry coming from me, DBQ, is the one you support coming from karen! hypocritical a little 🙂
And Olly, Olly, who is now dropping the pretenses of fairness, Olly who pretends to hold the moral edge, that Olly too flips to the others.. ÿes, this is bad…but…the other guys over there…”
Ah, the hypocrisy!
Can’t wait to hear what Bambam or KCFleming have to say about this.
I suspect the Muslims are behind this.
Karen makes it about Palestinians (surprise) while claiming to talk solely about extremist islam. This is exactly the case you refused to comment on because you could not find it????? Still the Palestinians’fault! Those demons!
This is what I said before about this exact case:
————————–
karen, you are working too hard too exculpate the guilty, the terrorist…
As usual, you struggle to find the exact case being referred to…it does the rounds internationally, but YOU, karen are the only one who can’t find it.
I have linked to it for over 2 months now, trying to get you to condemn it, to no avail. I even linked it above…One can’t condemn what one can’t find, right? Right karen “the supporter of all women’s rights but arab women”?
karen” arab women deserve being killed”, karen “all women murder are worth being lamented except arab women”? right?
You’d rather look the fool, the hypocritical, the dummy not seeing the obvious than condemn something you obviously support?
You can’t fool us, dear karen, everyone knows your game by now…but since you are adamant about condemning all extremism, why not condemn the below here, now, so we know exactly where you stand 🙂
———————————–
karen said to Po:
Do you consider crashing a van deliberately into a civilian bus stop, hitting people, and then jumping out with a knife to stab a woman with a baby a terrorist attack? Yes or now. And this time answer the question.
Po answered:
yes, I do!
Do YOU consider the bombing of hospitals, of schools, of ambulances, the dropping of a missile on 4 kids playing on the beach, the lighting of a sleeping family on fire a terrorist act? Yes or no? And this time answer the question!
“All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts.” This was the religious opinion issued one week ago by Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute, a long-established religious institute attended by students and soldiers in the Israeli settlements of the West Bank.
“That was the day after Riham Dawabsha died of injuries from the horrific firebombing of her family home that killed her son, 18-month-old Ali Dawabsha, in the occupied West Bank village of Duma.
The boy’s father, Saad, died of his injuries in August, leaving Ali’s badly burned 4-year-old brother Ahmed as the sole survivor.
Israel’s conduct turned out to be depressingly predictable.
Haaretz reported today that, according to Israel’s defense minister Moshe Yaalon, “Israel’s defense establishment knows who is responsible for the arson attack that killed three members of a Palestinian family two months ago, but has chosen to prevent legal recourse in order to protect the identity of their sources.”
Yaalon made the remarks in a closed meeting of activists of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud Party.
The minister later confirmed to Haaretz that the Israeli defense establishment “believes they know who carried out the terrorist attack, but there is difficulty in putting them on trial. I hope that we’ll find the evidence necessary in order to bring the perpetrator [sic] of this heinous attack to justice.”
According to Haaretz, Yaalon “also noted that the perpetrators belong to a group of Jewish extremists that intended to increase tension in the West Bank. Therefore, said Ya’alon, the decision was made to put Jewish suspects in administrative detention, in order to prevent future attacks.”
Witnesses had seen the attackers flee to the nearby Israeli settlement of Maaleh Efraim after the Dawabsha home was set on fire.
Three Jewish settlers, Meir Ettinger, Mordechai Meyer and Eviatar Slonim, have been held without charge since the attack for allegedly plotting and carrying out other violent attacks against Palestinians. But it is unknown if any of them are among the suspects referred to by Yaalon.
Following the attack on the Dawabsha family and intense international condemnation, Netanyahu vowed to find the killers.
But he did not order the army to go on the sort of destructive rampage meted out against Palestinians after the June 2014 abduction and killing of three Israeli youths in the occupied West Bank.
In that case, Israel carried out the extrajudicial murders of two Palestinians it claimed were behind the abductions and the collective punishment of their families by destroying their homes.
Who are they protecting?
Yaalon’s reported excuse, that Israeli authorities had not announced the arrest of the suspects in the Dawabsha murders to “protect the identity of their sources,” makes little sense.
Why would “sources” who had helped apprehend alleged murderers need protection, and from whom? And why couldn’t Israel with its mighty army and all-knowing “security” services provide it?
If the “sources” are from Shin Bet, Israel’s internal spy agency, why could they not testify anonymously as they have frequently done against Palestinians? And even if Israel is worried about their identities being exposed, why is that more important than the lives of Palestinians?
Yaalon’s revelation looks like yet another example of the systematic impunity Israeli soldiers and settlers are granted for attacks on Palestinians.
It would also not be the first time settlers have gotten away with burning Palestinians alive.
The settlers, just like the army, are an extension of the Israeli settler-colonial state that always protects its own and that glorifies the terrorists and ethnic cleansers who established it.
po
Good post DBQ. We will get the “moral equivalency” folks that will be unable simply to condemn all extremism. For them this will be justification why the state of Israel should not exist but they will won’t have the courage to say those words.
@ Olly
I had/still have many friends who served in Vietnam. Some voluntarily and others who were drafted. Most were in active combat. What I learned from them afterward, was that they didn’t ‘rejoice’ in the death of the enemy. Most felt regretful at the necessary actions that they had to take to preserve their own lives and the lives of their comrades. Necessary but still regretful.
A few of the guys were very torn and suffered terribly with doubts and self recrimination due to “civilian” deaths. Each person has certain psychological coping methods. Some people are more sensitive than others and are should not be in combat. Those who are rejoicing in death should also not be in combat. There is something wrong with them. War is a terrible thing and is not something that should be a source of happiness or rejoicing..
Never ever did anyone that I knew express joy or happiness or satisfaction over the killing of the enemy. To do so would be inhumane and I’m glad I never met anyone like this.
This is why the fanatical Islamic extremist and extremist of ANY kind are so frightening. They are not human anymore.
Most people I’ve met that have been in combat are not so much celebrating the death of the enemy but rather the fact they survived. Most would rather not be at war killing others and they certainly don’t “celebrate” in this manner.
I watched a video yesterday of a woman in a Sharia Law country that was accused of burning a Qur’an. She was dragged out of her home, stoned, beaten, run over by a car and then burned to death. The mob was insatiable. The end of the video stated the police later found out she had actually not burned a Qur’an but rather had found one in the trash and had taken it out. She had not violated ANY laws.
The death of an enemy combatant is justifiable but the death of innocents should be mourned by all sides. People that will celebrate in this way have lost all connection with the righteous cause that may have inspired the conflict in the first place. These are the extremists that fan the flames of more extremism and I cannot for one second defend these actions on the grounds of free speech. We have an obligation actually to be as vocal as possible in condemning these extremist actions.
Plus, we do not congratulate the Romans for crucifying Jesus, or stab his photo.
BarkinDog,
We don’t celebrate the death of Jesus Christ, we celebrate His resurrection.
totally disgusting. Extremism ruins everything. I cannot wrap my head around anyone rejoicing at the death or injury of any child. Revenge attacks/murders have become a real problem. I’m glad Israel condemns and prosecutes such attacks and domestic terrorism, but have the same concerns about free speech as the professor has. Under this law, every Palestinian who rejoices at the death of a Jewish Israeli would be arrested, and the prisons would be overfilled. I don’t want that either. It should be limited to actions, or planning to act, not opinion, no matter how vile. And it is vile, when either side rejoices at the death of civilians, and especially children.
DBQ – no kidding. It’s like claiming the US has no right to exist because we have murderers and Timothy McVeigh. He gets so outraged, to the point of calling vile names, whenever someone criticizes violent Muslim extremism, one has to wonder what he’s into, and why he’s become so fixated.
War is a terrible thing and the deaths that result should not be celebrated or be rejoiced. Anyone who doesn’t feel the pain of killing his/her enemy and instead celebrates it has really lost their humanity.
Next up po to lecture us ad nauseam and crow…..see Jews do it too!!!!! rejoicing in the inhumanity of man. Sick.
Prof. Turley: I appreciate very much the lesson here and in countless other examples you’ve posted: free speech must be protected at every peril.
Rejoicing over the death of a human is a mean spirited thing which humanity should not abide by.
A huge example is Christmas and all the church goers who celebrate some human being hung by his arms on a cross until dead. People in America put statues and other depictions of crosses with dead guy hanging on it in their front yards and on their doors. Jeso.