We have previously discussed the alarming rollback on free speech rights in the West, particularly in England ( here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here). England is now a tragic example of how speech regulation and criminalization becomes insatiable — producing a down spiral as more and more speech is found intolerable or criminal. The most recent example is the call to ban Donald Trump from entry into the United Kingdom as someone guilty of hate speech. While I have criticized Trump’s statements about barring Muslims from entering the country, he is entitled to voice his views on immigration and participate in a debate about how we are going to handle both immigration and national security concerns. The chilling thing about this debate in Parliament is not that it will succeed in barring Trump but that it would not be in any way out of order with prior content-based sanctions.
Much of this trend is tied to the expansion of hate speech and non-discrimination laws. We have seen comedians targeted with such court orders under this expanding and worrisome trend. (here and here).
Now even debating the risks of Muslim immigration as a policy is deemed hate speech and sanctionable by many. A far more useful debate on January 18th in Parliament is to look at the rapid decline of free speech in England. It is of course not alone. We have seen politicians like Dutch politician Geert Wilders prosecuted over what should clearly be protected speech. England has blocked Wilders and even speakers like Michael Savage based on disagreements with what they believe and say. Likewise, in France, Marine LePen is under investigation for speaking her mind on immigration.
What is truly distressing is that this petition was started by someone described as a “journalist.” Suzanne Kelly celebrated the news that someone with whom she disagrees could now be barred from entering the country: “However the debate goes, this exercise has brought many people together to speak out against hate speech and prejudice. That is my reward, and one I’m very happy and moved by.” It is a curious reward for a “journalist” to rally a mob against unpopular speakers and seek to impose content-based speech controls.
Kelly appears the very personification of the problem of the addictive aspect of speech controls. Kelly, a contributing writer for the community website Aberdeen Voice, said “The more I looked at Donald Trump and the remarks he has made before entering the presidential race, the more my hackles were rising . . . There are few things a person in my position can do against a person like that but make use of this country’s wonderful laws and procedures.” Those “wonderful” laws involve punishing people with whom you disagree. Time will only tell is speech in the future by Kelly get the “hackles” up of others — who will call for her own silencing or sanctioning. Movements for ensorship and speech controls tend to be like Saturn and devour their own.
Thus, we will watch on January 18th as free people rally around the concept of less freedom — calling for their government to curtail the freedom of everyone in order to silence those with whom they disagree. There is of course an alternative. Kelly could use that journalist identity and actually respond to Trump and his ideas. Now that is a novel concept.
Source: Time
Dog re Alex’s comment
The incident resulting from the Iranian taking of hostages in the 70’s was entirely different than what is going on today. Then a sovereign country attacked an American embassy and took American citizens hostage. This was tantamount to an act of war and violated international precedents in place for over a thousand years. The Iranians that were deported were found to be in violation of visa agreements and therefore would have been deported in any event. The same reviewing of visas of students and workers from countries such as Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia (especially), etc should be underway at this time.
There is little if anything here to compare to Trump’s nonsense and stoking of the fires that burn in the bellies of some whose knee-jerk responses are, “Islam is incompatible with Western culture….” etc. The racists on this blog can be easily identified by their vitriol. Trump is preaching to these racists.
It goes without saying that the vetting of immigrants should be done with more care and in greater depth due to the current insanity. However, classifying an entire religion due to the few festering sores to be found on any group is not much different than the tactics used by these extremists. An extremist is an extremist is an extremist.
Lisa N, how’s the weather in Oregon with Y’all Queada?
They want to ban him….because what he says “doesn’t comport with their values”……? Their government is in on this? But it seems over half america agrees with what he said….are they going to ban all of us who also say “i too think we should ban all muslims until we figure out whats going on”…..and i’ll go one say notch higher….”we should ban them maybe permanently because their values don’t seem to comport with the values of born and raised Americans.”..
If the brits want to be consistent they’d have to ban millions of Americans. Then that’s pretty much calling the kettle black.
This is the tragic, and entirely predictable, result of the erosion of Free Speech in Europe.
Such tyranny over speech is one of the reasons why our own founders gave Free Speech constitutional protection. If you are not free to speak your mind, you are not free at all.
Agreeing or disagreeing with Trump’s rhetoric is entirely irrelevant.
Alex: Your comment, several comment up there, was very good. Please chime in more often and give us cites to laws which are relevant. I did not know about that statute or about Jimmy Carter’s use of it. The dogs in the dogpac here read all of the comments on this topic and all agree that your comment was helpful and certainly not a swipe at someone else.
Folks: lets not fight amongst ourselves. There are bad people out there to throw rocks at. Like the Brits who want to ban The Donald.
Lloyd Blankfien says:
“Trump: “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on.” So banning is not total and complete shutdown? Come on”
DBQ says:
“No. It isn’t because it would (in theory) be a temporary ban.”
DBQ, there is one major problem with your statement, namely, your implicit assumption that “our country’s representatives” collectively have the ability to figure out what is going on. There may be lots of disagreement on this blog, but I suspect that most of us would agree that, collectively, Congress can’t figure out much these days. They are too busy hanging out with lobbyists and raising $$ for re-election.
FogdogSF
You might call it a nightmarish hybrid of Monty Python and the Onion.As much as I dislike the thought of Trump being president of the US, however, the discussion of banning Trump does bother me. There are much better ways to tweak Trump while not setting a poor example for people who don’t appreciate the subtleties of Monty Python. For example, they could vote to make him an honorary Muslim.
The Parliament debate proposal strikes me as typical British tongue-in-cheek public debate which only the British can pull off. It lets the crazies come forward for public viewing and gives them a platform. Doesn’t worry me the slightest.
There are some obsessive Obama commenters in this string. Let me add: Dogs don’t chase parked cars. Get out for some fresh air.
Lloyd -bankster ->
It is MANDATED you take a firm and public stand proving you intend to protect the US Constitution and the American people, by removing Barack Hussein Obama and his criminal assistants from their ruling perches and STOP the assault on OUR Constitution, Country, Citizens, and “God Given Inalienable Civil Liberties”. The following are examples of issues named in criminal complaints filed:
Specific instances of Treason include but are not limited to the following:
1. U.S. Army troops were deployed in Samson, Alabama on March 10, 2009. In response to a Freedom of Information request by the Dothan Eagle (see Lance Griffin), the Department of Army Inspector General found that the armed troops deployed to Samson, Alabama violated the Posse Comitatus Act, which restrains the use of the military for civilian law enforcement purposes.
2. BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA violated Article 1, Section 9, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution by becoming the first United States President to chair the United Nations Security Council.
To Wit:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, or Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
3. Mr. OBAMA declared War on the Republic of Libya on March 17, 2011 without the approval of the Congress, violating Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 of our United States Constitution.
4. Mr. OBAMA has also entered into an Agreement with the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan), a foreign Power, and with the intent to sell 125 tanks to Egypt, home of the Muslim Brotherhood, violating Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 of our United States Constitution.
To Wit:
No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.
5. BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA is under investigation by California Congressman Darrell Issa for Project Gunrunner, and justice is clearly obstructed in this case as well as the Black Panther voter intimidation case.
Arizona and now Alabama are being sued over immigration laws designed Alias Barry Barrack Hussein Obama… He has Violated OUR Nations Constitution! He Has Never taken the Pledge of Allegiance Truthfully.!
OUR God Given inalienable Rights were there, Before the Constitution THE SUPREME LAW was Written.. ! We were Born with those Rights from GOD..!! Some refer to them as the Bill of Rights!… THEY are OUR…. “BILL OF REMINDERS” ! Our Inalienable God Given Rights of Property, Liberty, and Life..These come from God…and Our Parents.!
The Constitution Guarantees this.. and The Legislative, Judicial, and Executive Officers are bound By Oath of Affirmation to Protect and Defend, Uphold OUR Rights..Equally! Just as important all three!
WE Live in a Republic not a Democracy! Our Pledge of Allegiance Reminds Us! Our song “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” inspires Us! OUR U.S. Constitution Guarantees It…. “A Republican Form of Government”! ………..Nowhere in the Magna Carta, The Declaration of Independence, or Our Supreme Law …does NOT State Democratic, or Democracy.. Nowhere….Read It…!
Those who refuse to read …have no ability over those who cannot, Read! Learn, Revive, Preserve, and Protect OUR Constitution! And OUR Nation!! Our Holy Bible We Live By! God Bless America! The Star Spangle Banner! Our National Anthem! The Declaration of Independence or Our Supreme Law …does NOT State Democratic, or Democracy. Nowhere….Read It…!
Those who refuse to read …have no ability over those who cannot Read”! Learn, Revive, Preserve, and Protect OUR Constitution! And OUR Nation!! Our Holy Bible We Live By! God Bless America! The Star Spangle Banner! Our National Anthem! Amen…Shalom! Responsibility, Accountability, to their Oath of Office…without Reservation!
Supreme Court Justices should be Elected, not Appointed..! A Fact: All judges Justices should be Elected NOT Appointed, With Term Limits and Accountability!
Clearly the Cannons of Judicial Ethics have been violated.. and Judicial Edict..have Expensively, Monetarily long abused.. With NO JUDICIAL IMMUNITY! NO ONE Is Above the Law.. but WE THE PEOPLE! As OUR Preamble is Law Also..The first Three Words..We are the Kings and Queens of this Nation…They work for US…! They are the Public Servants….”Under God Indivisible”…. and Our Sovereign Nation.
We As Individuals ! Our Children’s Prosperity, and..Heritage..is of no moral concern to this congress or this president? Why did they Exempt them selves from Obama Care, after voting for it..! It is Bad for Families and Individuals..! with many Testimony of Individuals. HE IS ONE OF THEM……!! A Fraudulent Felon!
Many numerations of OUR U.S.Constitution have been Violated..Title 18 U.S.C. § 2382 : & US Code Section 2381:
Misprision of treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States and having knowledge of the commission of any treason against them, conceals and does not, as soon as may be, disclose and make known the same to the President or to some judge of the United States, or to the governor or to some judge or justice of a particular State, is guilty of misprision of treason and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than seven years, or both.
From the first moment of…publicly ‘Lying TO GOD’….He does not believe in! Deceiving the General Public, The OATH OF OFFICE…! News Media! Federal Statutes, Rules of Jurisprudence, Civil Honesty, Integrity, Non Military background! Blatant Violations of our U.S. Constitution the Supreme Law of the Land! Multiple Violations of Federal Laws, and State Statutes of Electoral Campaign!
These all Unprosecuted up to today, Still ! With No Justice, Corrupted. Justice delayed, Justice denied! Worst Code of Silence. Ever gone unequivocal! Of the Corruption in this Administration!!
With the Congressional Members who promote, enhance, turn a deaf ear and blind eye to their Monster Muslim in OUR White HOUSE! A Vandalizing Arsonist, to OUR Country’s National Security, Federal Laws, Heritage, Declaration of Independence, Our Military code of Honor, Our Service Veterans!
Promoting provoking danger to Citizenry, Our selves, Families, and Allies! Much too much to more for transcription!! “The Birth-certificate is as Fraudulent as it is thin..and He !. Any legislation, he has proclaimed,
TO WIT: pronounce law and or bogus executive order is “mute, nullified’! From the moment of its conception” ! ….. GOD JESUS CHRIST Our Lord King of Kings…BLESS AMERICA!! AMEN! SHALOM!
Your consideration to immediately have Obama charged with High Crimes of Treason and removed from Our Office of our Presidency.. is important of the Best of Our Nation Children’s Prosperity and Our Own..
I’ll take a misogynist all day long over this cretinous traitorous lying racist Muslim in the White House all freaking day long.
So banning is not total and complete shutdown? Come on
No. It isn’t because it would (in theory) be a temporary ban.
If I temporarily take out your spark plugs and disable the fuel lines so you can’t drive your car until I replace them….I haven’t stolen your car or made it forever totally and completely shut down. Just shut down for a while 😀
Words have meaning and if you are going to quote someone you should quote exactly what they said, instead of what you think or wish that they have said. That is the honest thing to do.
Lloyd,
Obama has already “been ridiculed and deemed unfit to lead” so your point is moot.
Doglover, that’s a very quaint view of US -Brit relations, especially 250 years after US independence. The “parent” tried to kill the “offspring” at the age of maturity. Regardless, I do also love dogs.
Trump: “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on.” So banning is not total and complete shutdown? Come on.
That liberal Wall Street Journal is at it again: Donald Trump Calls for Ban on Muslim Entry Into U.S. – WSJ http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-calls-for-ban-on-muslim-entry-into-u-s-1449526104
And Trump’s misogynistic comments seem to be just fine with his women supporters. If Obama said ONE of those things he would be ridiculed and deemed unfit to lead. But since it’s a white republican white guy, it’s just Trump being Trump…. Amazing hypocrisy…..
Lloyd Blankfien – the WSJ is liberal except for the editorial pages.
Trump DID NOT say bar Muslims from entering the country. He said stop them TEMPORARILY until we know what the hell is going on.
Thank you Lisa for pointing out that Lloyd B is a blatant liar who twists the words that others say to suit his own prejudices.
A temporary ban in ALL immigration until we can fix the system would seen to be a sensible and safe precaution for our government to take. Stop immigration until we know who is coming in, who we will ALLOW to come in, scan immigrants for disease and qualifications to become a part of our country.
Either we have borders, rule and laws or we are not a country at all and will revert to bands of vigilantes who are trying to keep ourselves safe. Watch what is happening in Germany for a bell weather of the future.
I think that some folks in the UK should apply that same law to Ms. Kelly for promoting hate speech against a legitimate politician. That might sober her up, but I doubt it. At least we can be entertained by her trying to defend herself against the charges.
The US has, often times, in the past and it pops up occasionally, not allowed people from other countries with outspoken views-environmentalists, durn communists, etc-to enter the country. Farley Mowat, an internationally acclaimed author and speaker was turned back on his way to deliver a speech, a speech he was invited to give by the US institution.
The US doesn’t debate it openly or present it in the newspapers. The US simply slips it by. There is a lot of talk, which is good, the issue must remain in the open. However, a little of the pot calling the kettle black as well.
The British government, as a parliamentary system, is typically more responsive to these sorts of issues. Parliamentarians are less contained by their party and not as often bought and paid for as are US politicians. A lot of this sort of stuff makes its way into Parliament to be debated but rarely results in actions such as denying ‘The Donald’ entry to Great Britain.
I would think JT would applaud the freedoms the British have in bringing it up and wait until Trump is denied entry to whine about it.
These are all Muslims. Can anyone tell me which one is a peaceful Muslim and which one is a radical Muslim ?
http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/muslims-afp.jpg