The New York Times has run an opinion column by Mariame Kaba denouncing efforts by Democratic leaders and the media to try to spin the call for defunding the police as just a reallocation of funds and a new set of priorities and a new structure for policing. Kaba wrote “Yes, we mean literally abolish the police.” That opinion piece follows a warning by Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., that Democrats and others trying to “repackage” the push to “Defund the Police” Notably, while the New York Times apologized for publishing an opinion piece by a ranking U.S. Senator on the use of federal troops to quell rioting, it has now problem with publishing a column calling for the abolishment of police. As discussed earlier, this is a movement that is moving rapidly to the left and repackaging is now considered counter-revolutionary.
Kaba states what people in the streets has been saying (including rallies chanting “no more cops”) even as some in the media has mocked those who claimed that “defund the police” could actually mean defunding the police or that “dismantle the police” could actually means dismantling the police. Indeed, recently Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender told CNN’s Alisyn Camerota that people who are concerned about their personal safety after defunding police are simply speaking “from a place of privilege.”
Kaba rejects “liberal reforms” from congressional Democrats and Joe Biden including calls for cracking down on police misconduct or ordering reforms: “Enough. We can’t reform the police. The only way to diminish police violence is to reduce contact between the public and the police.” She states that police have always been a “force of violence against black people” dating back to slavery. At a minimum, Kaba wants police cut “in half” because “fewer police officers equals fewer opportunities for them to brutalize and kill people.” For this reason, Kaba explains “We don’t want to just close police departments. We want to make them obsolete.”
She is not alone in this backlash. Seattle Council Member and Socialist Kshama Sawant just called for people “to fight against the reactionary agenda.”She has attacked the “Democratic establishment.”
“At the same time we have to hold the establishments in various cities accountable. This violence against the peaceful protest movement on Capitol Hill was carried out by Mayor Jenny Durkan. And that’s why it’s no surprise that tens of thousands of people in Seattle are calling for her resignation because they reject police violence, they reject police brutality and we want a society that is based on equality and cooperation
….as far as things going awry, I can tell you the only thing that went awry day after day after day since the first protest on May 30th was the police under orders by the Democratic Party establishment and the Mayor Durkan, it was the police making things going awry.”
The disconnect is widening between what actual activists are saying and what the media is reporting and Democratic leaders are hearing. For example, Atlanta Mayor Keisha Bottoms assured people that the slogan is simply a “simplified message. . . but I think the overarching thing is that people want to see a reallocation of resources into community development and alternatives to just criminalizing.” That sounds a bit different from “no more cops” and demands to “dismantle the police” heard in these rallies:
As discussed earlier, Democratic leaders have been trying to tap into the energy and numbers of the antifascist movement for years despite its anti-free speech and sometimes violent record. It is now struggling to control this careening movement by simply refashioning its demands in a more a new image. The establishment is dealing with another sharp disconnect. While the media has attempted to re-make the movement to defund into a more mainstream image, polls show 64% of the public oppose the call. It is a dangerous pivot to make in the middle mad rush to the extremes. This is why, during the French Revolution, the journalist Jacques Mallet Pan warned, “Like Saturn, the revolution devours its children.”
George,
Nice video once one realizes the facts that lead to the guy being shoot.
At this point in our history a person should consider every citizen armed & Truck drivers & other have multiple high capacity mags for their semi-auto ” AR/AK Defender Rifles”.
People best not be getting on another persons vehicle unless they wish to take live rounds. Play time is over!
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/truck-drivers-say-will-not-deliver-dangerous-far-left-cities-defunded-police-departments/
Oki1. Yeah the murderous thug deserved to be shot in the head. Kinder than what he did to others.
People in Oklahoma are not under Commie/Nazi control like all those other blue state Crapholes, Cali/NY/NJ/ etc…… If your a Commie type stay the hell away, you’re not welcome here.
Go to North Korea, back Africa, anywhere, but go if you don’t like our Nation/USC w/ it’s Bill of Rights. Leave in peace, you’re free to go! For Now!
We support our law enforcement!!!
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/hottest-ticket-ever-300000-people-sign-trumps-make-america-great-rally-tulsa-oklahoma/
California, the home of Ronald Reagan and many other patriotic conservatives, has been invaded. Communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) facilitated the invasion of foreign hyphenates to compensate for the inexplicable end of production of Americans by American women.
____________________________________
“Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.”
– George Washington
_________________
If we desire to avoid insult, we must be able to repel it; if we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known, that we are at all times ready for War.”
– George Washington
I think the Dem mayors who foolishly choose to defund the police will enable too many criminals to commit too many crimes. Like many “experts” think. Still, so many “experts” have been wrong about Covid-19; about Global Warming (even changing the name); about big gov’t deficits leading to hyperinflation — maybe some cities need to defund the police to see what happens.
Naturally, as the looting, raping, and killing escalates, the Dem media will be blaming … Trump!
But the truth is that the police are needed to catch criminals to keep crime lower. As long as Dems are “Imagine” believers of un-truth, it’s hard to have an actual serious conversation.
All who support looting and shooting should support Dems – all opposed should support Republicans.
Getting rid of qualified immunity for gov’t agents like police would be good in any case.
I see that Turley is stirring the pot for his Trump base with this article. “If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, But between patriotism and intelligence on one side, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other” Ulysses S. Grant.
That’s exactly right. This is more about the spread of willful ignorance vs those who are actually thinking with their heads. Knowledge is the antithesis of ignorance. People don’t like to be seen as stupid or less educated. But this is essentially the case. Fear of those who know and better understand the situation vs those who cannot accept an inability to understand feel as if they are being attacked for their ignorance. There’s a lot of that going on in this blog. Any attempt at rational thought is immediately attacked as insult.
“Knowledge is the antithesis of ignorance.”
Absolutely – so make your argument
Facts, logic reason.
not emotion, ideology, fallacy, or naked assertions.
If you are going to call others stupid – you are morally obligated to make that case.
Otherwise the moral and factual failures are presumed to be yours.
John Say, why would I need to make my case here when obvious examples abound?
Stating the obvious shouldn’t be required.
“John Say, why would I need to make my case here when obvious examples abound?
Stating the obvious shouldn’t be required.”
If it was actually obvious – then why is there so much disagreement ?
If what you claim is obvious – then it should be easier to make your case than to rant about how obvious it is.
Many things that have been purportedly obvious are also false.
Because “its obvious” is not an argument, it is a fallacy.
Because if you are seeking to have govenrment act – you are seeking to use force.
The moral use of force requires actual justification – saying “its obvious” is not enough.
Because the failure of the ideas of the left is historically “obvious” – though if that is not good enough for you there is plenty of evidence.
Because “it is NOT obvious”
John, lead by example. These posts today were operatic and just as long.
“John, lead by example.”
I have
“These posts today were operatic and just as long.”
Not an argument.
The point John. Cut it short. You’re not that precious.
Anon, it seems you are unable to answer fact with fact. You have relied too much on falsehood so what you say is easily destroyed by anyone aware of the lies you spin.
BTB and others provide posts that contain large numbers of fallacies.
Sometimes I choose not to address them.
Sometimes one.
Sometimes each sequentially
Sometimes each in different posts.
All are valid choices.
I do not get to control how anyone else here posts,
Nir does anyone else get to control my posts.
Given the pile of crackpot ideas John is dumping here, his judgement lacks bite. If he can focus long enough I’m happy to discuss most of them – up to a point. I won’t be listening to Alex Jones with him.
PS John, you can always talk to Allan. Not many others do.
Anon, most people that communicate with you either think you are abusive and stupid. Those you seem to like have some of the same problems you do.
Interestingly, I am free to reply to any port or comment that I wish.
And I do not need you to educate me to that fact.
“It seems as nearly everyone on this forum still does fail to grasp what is happening around you. You ask for specific examples of trump lying while couching that with “all politicians lie”.”
Which part of that is false ?
All politicians do not lie all the time. Some lie more than others.
“Trump is certainly a compulsive liar.”
I have no idea what that means, particularly with respect to other politicians.
Can you provide specific significant examples ?
“He said Mexico will pay for it”
He did.
And Obama said “If you like your doctor you can keep them”
Which of those statements is a more consequential “lie”. ?
Further as I have noted, Trump has actually fairly successfully gotten not just mexico but other Central american countries to significantly impeed the northward flow of immigrants. They may not be paying for the wall, but they are performing a substantial part of our border security for us.
I would also not that “If you like your doctor you can keep him” – is more than a promise to supporters. It is a promise to all of us. Whether you voted for Obama or not – you were screwed if you lost your doctor as a result of PPACA – and many did.
Conversely how are Trump’s opponents harmed by the assortment of promises you say he did not keep ? You did not want the wall anyway.
As Salena Zito noted: “When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.”
Are Trump’s supporters in revolt over the Wall and its payment ?
Are Trump’s opponents harmed specifically because he did not literally make Mexico pay ?
“he would build it faster than anyone else.”
Given that no one else made any consequential progress in building it,
It seems he has kept that promise.
Many in the press note that a substantial portion of Trump’s wall building so far has been rebuilding failing walls and fences. Not building new ones. That is correct. The Wall on the southern border of CA has proved incredibly effective for decades, It almost ended illegal immgration directly into CA. But it was crumbling and will be mostly rebuilt soon and will last for several more decades.
Trump also sent the Army to run almost 500 miles of concertina, I beleive near El paso.
That is not permanent wall, but it is new. And it likely will last for a decade if it is not replaced by wall.
“That still didn’t happen AND it cost taxpayers far more than he claimed.”
Those who voted against Trump were not going to be happy no matter what.
But I think you will find those who voted for Trump are quite happy.
Border crossings – particularly in peak months are WAY down, Further the balance has shifted from primarily family units back to the history norm of primarily single males.
” He also claimed it would be impenetrable. Smugglers have cut into it already with ease.”
Drug Seizures at the border are down 50% from 2016.
“What I see here are massive cases of cognitive dissonance.”
Yup. We are debating Trump, but it does not matter what the issue. The cognative disonance on the left is incredible.
We were told that people protesting the lock down were immoral – because they were risking a “2nd wave” of C19, That they were violent – because they carried guns, but there was ZERO looting and arson and not a police officer or anyone else was injured.
Now we are told that those “protesting” George Floyd’s death are fine that, first amendment rights trump concerns about C19, and that these “protests” are peaceful – yet accross the country people are being injured, or killed, and there is looting and Arson.
The total damage accross the country likely exceeds that of the Rodney King riots in LA.
The communities that have lost businesses and jobs are not getting them back anytime soon.
Lots of cognative disonance.
We were told by dozens of people they had seen evidence of the Trump campaign colluding with Russia, yet under oath with cameras rolling, every single one of them testified that there was no such evidence that they were aware of – yet the left has sold that to us for 4 years, and continues to do so.
Why should anyone beleive you when you claim Trump is some massive historic liar, when you are wrong about nearly everything – whether it has anything to do with Trump or not ?
“That alone makes any attempt to provide proof futile.”
Non-sequitur.
Provide actual proof. Then we shall see.
It is not rational to emotionally assume the outcome of something you have not tried.
“All I can do is point out the gross ignorance many show here.”
non-sequtur.
ad hominem.
You point out “ignorance” or error with evidence, not naked assertions.
Facts, Logic, Reason.
“Given the pile of crackpot ideas John is dumping here,”
Not an argument, also non-sequitur.
Insulting an argument is not countering it. If is fallacy.
“his judgement lacks bite.”
Nit an argument
“If he can focus long enough I’m happy to discuss most of them – up to a point.”
And yet you have not.
You have not addressed a single one.
Do not tell people what you think you can do.
Do it.
Make your argument.
“I won’t be listening to Alex Jones with him.”
Who said I listen to Alex Jones ?
I merely noted that a truly insane right wing nut has been more accurate than you.
That should seriously disturb you.
As I noted before. I can not recall a single instance ever before of some conspiracy theory proving true. Yet, today we have one. There might be some debate about how large a group was truly involved, but we have emails between about half a dozen in DOJ/FBI discussing setting up Flynn. There is no circumstance ever where anyone in law enforcement or government should ever discuss entrapment – even of an actual criminal, Certainly not of a sitting NSA. And that is the smallest version of a conspiracy.
“Not an argument, also non-sequitur.
“Insulting an argument is not countering it. If is fallacy.” -John Say
It’s the “Comments” section of a blog — not the “Debate” section.
Look through the “comments” section. Disccusions turn bitter, and become nasty, insult shouting messes.
That is what always occurs when people resort to fallacy – particularly ad hominem in any type of discussion.
If what you want is trolling and pissing contests – then spray fallacies and ad hominem all you wish. No one is stopping you.
As best as I can tell, if you can avoid WordPresses nasty word filters you can say whatever you wish.
If your goal is snark and insults – do as you wish.
My commenting heeds J. S. Mills advice
“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion… Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them…he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
I want those I disagree with to make their best agreements. That is the crucible where we discern the truth.
I am well informed, good at logic, my views are well thought out, and have their roots in those of the greatest minds of the past two centuries. (my errors are my own).
It is not likely that someone is going to make an argument I have not heard and do not know what is wrong with. But it does happen, and in fact I want it to happen.
There have been a small number of examples purporting to be evidence of systemic racism that I have not encountered before and that need deeper consideration.
Still they are unlikely to prevail. Why ? Because if the overall data in 10 different areas consistently reflects non racists choices, the likelyhood that in one or two areas only police are systemically racist is pretty much zero.
Regardless, I want your best argument. I intend to prove it wrong. If your argument is any good at all, that will be difficult and require me to think. That is what i hope for out of you. It your argument is really good and I can not refute it, then I must consider the possibility you are right.
“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”
Ayn Rand
I am here to find and purge all the contradictions from my values and principles.
John, I’ve refuted all your ideas before – except one, see below – and I don’t intend to make that a daily exercise. If you have something new to add, by all means, run it by.
At one passing moment in one of your long exhausting screeds you tried to justify Triump’s colossally bad response to by saying – essentially – it’s all random and nothing we do matters. You seem to be alone in that novel interpretation, which of course still does not justify Trump acting like a lying a.h…e, obviously more concerned with preening and covering his own butt than protecting lives. But let’s hope you are right that all will be well soon.
Here’s Trump:
https://twitter.com/funder/status/1258742453441617920
Here’s the dailys.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EafjlsnXQAE4_8e?format=jpg&name=small
You might notice a very slight, almost undetectable swing in new cases, which of course would not fit your unicorn led prediction.
“John, I’ve refuted all your ideas before”
I have seen no evidence of that.
I have not even seen evidence that you have made a non fallacious agument.
Though most of what you post is not argument – fallacious or otherwise.
“I don’t intend to make that a daily exercise”
I do not control you. You need not tell me your plans.
“If you have something new to add, by all means, run it by.”
You do not control me. I will do as I please.
“saying – essentially – it’s all random and nothing we do matters.”
I do not recall saying anything like that.
A position somewhat close to that is a tenant of postmodernism which I reject.
SOME things are random, or unimportant. Everything is not.
“You seem to be alone in that novel interpretation,”
“which of course still does not justify Trump acting like a lying a.h…e, obviously more concerned with preening and covering his own butt than protecting lives.”
Lets address Trump protecting lives – how has he failed to do that ? In many instances how does he have the authority to do that ?
We have spent months dealing with C19. I think we can agree that pretty much every one of our leaders and experts including Trump has thoroughly (and predictably) embarrassed themselves.
Though i would note, because it is an error you make all the time,
Every mistake is not a lie. When you accuse someone of lying, you are accusing them of moral rather than factual error. You have never seemed to grasp that.
The differences is consequential. As noted every leader and every expert has been mistaken multiple times about C19. I have made a few mistakes about C19. Though less than the so called experts.
But back to protecting lives.
First as Turley has pointed out repeatedly Trump’s authority regarding public health is quite limited. Outside of stopping this at the borders – which Trump like every other world leader failed to do, the responsibility for public health falls to states.
So your first problem is Trump has very little ability to “protect lives’.
The left has fixated over the air time he has had preening about C19.
Well the media covered him. You have embued him with power he does not have and them blamed him for not doing what he can not do.
There is of course the separate problem that the building body of evidence suggests that there is absolutely nothing any govenrment could have done to stop this disease – though we should have done a better job of keeping it away from the elderly.
Again not a Trump failure.
Regardless, why am i to blame Trump on C19, when most of us are agreed he has no power ?
The same thing is true regarding these riots/protests. Again these are primarily a problem for local and state government.
Again Turley has noted that Trump’s authority is limited and most of us agree.
Further outside of DC, even those things Trump can do, should all wait until it is self evident local govenrments have failed badly – or they have asked for help.
Because as with most things like this even the bad commander on the scene has more knowledge of local conditions than someone 1500 miles away.
We can debate whether Trump can send in the national guard or even the active military – he can. But pretty much everyone grasps that so far he should not.
I also view Trump’s remarks differently than you.
I have no problem with Trump saying:
Fix your local problems or I will.
I want local mayors more motivated. lEven Andrew Cuomo seems to think DeBlasio has F’d up – and he has. But even Cuomo is exactly like Trump rattling sabres without actually doing anything.
I want Trump to presure governors and mayors, and I want govenors and mayors to respond to that pressure by solving their problems.
Regardless, I do not see this Trump failed to protect people” argument.
“Whatever you do don’t retweet this video, it will make Trump furious. It shows every time Trump lied about and downplayed coronavirus”
Again factual error is not lying, nor is mistaken prediction.
Did the WHO lie ? Did IMIE Lie ?
Please name any expert who has been right more often that Trump ?
Next, increasingly the evidence is that nothing government did worked.
Just to be clear – I do hold Trump, and experts, and republicans and democrats accountable, for shutting down the economy and for wasting a fortune.
“You might notice a very slight, almost undetectable swing in new cases, which of course would not fit your unicorn led prediction.”
What prediction have I made this contradicts ?
To the extent I have made any claims at all, it is that government interventions have been ineffective.
In a few places in this country there have been small increases in the number of cases as the lockdown’s have died, and possibly as a consequence of protests.
The weak increase reflects the weak effect of lockdowns in “flattening the curve.”
Lockdowns do have an effect – they change the pattern.
They do NOT change the total number of deaths or the total number of cases.
What is your goal ? To have fewer people die ? There is no evidence lockdows accomplish that. To have the same number of people die over a longer period ?
There is some evidence lockdowns accomplish that.
But that is BAD not good, and we should not want that.
John, if you cannot recognize that Trump will say anything he thinks at the moment he can get away with, you are dangerous to yourself and those who hang out with you. This is not SOP for politicians. Most know what is true – Trump doesn’t care – and respect their audience enough to only shade it, not ignore it.
Cripes that is lame.
We’re up to over 19k false or misleading statements.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/
“John, if you cannot recognize that Trump will say anything he thinks at the moment he can get away with”
I do not care much what he says. I care what he does.
Though I do care when you say Trump is a liar and you are wrong. That means you have no integrity
“you are dangerous to yourself and those who hang out with you.”
How so ? Actions not words are where real danger lies.
Trump is inarticulate – possibly deliberately so. But that is not the same as dangerous.
What country has he invaded ?
No president since Carter has not invaded something.
Are we shedding more or less blood than when he was elected ?
Already the economic data is indicating that C19 will not even meet the Fed’s definition of a recession. While it will have a very severe economic impact, that is very short term.
It is starting to appear as if we will either have zero or one quarter of negative growth.
And that is the worst economic moment in Trump’s presidency.
” Most know what is true”
I do not care what you claim to know is true.
I care what is actually true, and thus far what you are sure you know, is not congruent with actual facts.
We have raised the Trump/Russia nonsense. You can be unsure that there was some significant conspiracy to get Trump – though that gets harder to deny every day.
But you continue to pretend that the core thesis which made no sense from day one is still true.
You still want to fight that Putin favored Trump – even Comey could not stomach that.
That claim was not credible the moment it was made.
You keep trying to say it must be true because Coates of other republicans said so.
I do not care whether you have a red tie or a blue tie – wrong is wrong.
Stupidly wrong is stupidly wrong.
Credible people do not continue to argue nonsense long past its expiration.
“Trump doesn’t care – and respect their audience enough to only shade it”
Trump has a great deal of respect for his audience
it is you that does not.
John, I think we’ve reached the end of any hope of dialogue here. I can’t have enough respect to make the effort with someone who thinks Trump is acceptable leadership and a functioning human being worthy of minimum trust. The sample of virus lies – it is irrelevant if he believes it himself, except clinically – I linked to is not forgivable, and of course not out of the usual for him. Why you would try to justify this behavior is beyond my comprehension – though common enough these days – but have no tolerance for it. In the future I may correct obvious falsehoods you post, but they are safe if you bury them in your typical too long post.
Here’s that link again. Enjoy..
https://twitter.com/funder/status/1258742453441617920
“I can’t have enough respect to make the effort with someone who thinks Trump is acceptable leadership and a functioning human being worthy of minimum trust.”
I trust people who keep their promises. Trump meets that criteria.
I trust people who do not lie.
A lie is not an incorrect prediction or an incorrect statement.
It is a deliberate falsehood.
Sometimes Trump is deliberately imprecise.
That is not the same.
I do not trust people who have incredibly high standards for others they do not meet themselves – that is pretty much the entire left.
Those who lob accusations of lying at the slightest provocation – when what they means is I do not like what you have said.
Those who cast moral aspersions on others without backing them up.
That is a lack of integrity.
“The sample of virus lies – it is irrelevant if he believes it himself, except clinically”
There is nothing Trump has said about that has been more eroneous than what the “experts” have said.
If you are judging Trump harshly over C19 – then there is no one you do not think is an egregious liar.
Thus far I have a personal track record much better than the experts, but I have made a few mistakes.
I do not need somebodies meme video of Trump on C19.
There is no one you can not make that of.
The Biden version would be great – We have Biden Telling us Trump was wrong to lock down the country and then wrong not to lock it down sooner.
We probably have Biden saying both in the same sentence as he rarely can get to the end of a sentence without contradicting himself.
But we can do Faucci, Birx, IMIE, WHO, ….
Currently the US has had half as many total cases as Los Almost predicted US deaths.
“I linked to is not forgivable”
Can I hold you to the same standards ?
If you want me to express my anger over C19 – it would be at those who sent recovering C19 patients into Nursing Homes. That was criminally negligent homocide.
Why isn’t their outrage over that ? We KNEW before this hit the US that this thing had a 30-40% mortality rate for old people.
If I want to be outraged over “lies” – I have burning anger for those who said millions would die. For those who persuaded out leader to kill the economy to accomplish NOTHING.
“Why you would try to justify this behavior is beyond my comprehension”
Why you are bent out of shape over the errors of one person, when EVERYONE has F’;d this up more ?
If I am angry at Trump it would be for not telling the “experts” to F’off, and not providing the left amo to shut down the economy.
That was an absolutely colossal mistake.
“but have no tolerance for it.”
BS – you tolerate even celebrate the “lies” of the media and the left.
What consequence would you impose on those who claimed Carter Page was a Russian Asset ? That Flynn was a Russian Asset ? That the Steele Dossier was more credible than toilet paper ?
The Fact checkers who have been complete wrong over pretty much everything Trump/Russia.
What is the consequence for Entrapping the incoming NSA ?
What is the consequence tor trying to entrap the incoming president ?
What is the consequence for saying you have seen evidence that you KNEW did not exist ?
Your telling me that Trump is some gargantuan liar ?
Sorry Pinocchio I am not impressed by your ability to judge others.
Get the birdsnest out of your nose before defaming others – ANYONE.
You do not respect me ?
That is a compliment. Why should I value the respect of someone who has bought and spread actual lies ?
“In the future I may correct obvious falsehoods you post,:
In the future you may go to mars.
So far you have not made a single actual argument that I can recall or corrected any errors on my part.
John, whatever,
For a person who’s self image is so dependent on a pretense to objectivity, you make more compromises with reality to get where you want to go than the average astrologer.
“For a person who’s self image is so dependent on a pretense to objectivity, you make more compromises with reality to get where you want to go than the average astrologer.”
Back to mind reading. Why do you presume to know my self image or what it is dependent on ?
I have no idea what a “compromise with reality” is. Except that it is an admission on your part that I am atleast half right. A compromise with reality would require incorporating a significant portion of reality.
Regardless, what compromises with reality have I made ?
If you are going to make an accusation – and “compromises with reality” is just a fancy way of saying “lie” you have an obligation to prove that accusation.
In another century if you accused another of lying they could demand you retract or challenge you to a duel. In this one unsupported alegation come at the cost of your integrity.
I have made many assertions of fact.
They are all available to you.
Which are in error ? and what is the error ?
You have posted numerous responses. Thus far the only assertion of fact you have made and tried to back up is Trump lied about C19. Your use of lie is clearly false. Lying would require not only that he was wrong, but that he knew he was wrong.
Many people – pretty much everyone – myself included has made a few errors with respect to C19. But there are extremely few of those error’s no matter who made them that were deliberate. Error and malfeasance are not the same.
Regardless, you demonstrated that some of Trump’s remarks on C19 were errors – that was true of everyone. That is not malfeasance. You can base your vote on that judgement. But any claims of immorality are false.
Trump and C19 seems to be the only issue that you have been willing to attempt to back up.
Why should anyone be interested in vague generalized claims ?
If you make a moral accusation – support it. Facts.
Very much enjoying John Say’s commentary for its veracity and prescience but mostly for skewering our resident pseudo-intellectual troll. John’s learning about the sophistry on constant display by Gainesville so my guess is he’ll stop casting pearls before this swine sooner or later. Kudos, John.
“Very much enjoying John Say’s commentary for its veracity and prescience but mostly for skewering our resident pseudo-intellectual troll. John’s learning about the sophistry on constant display by Gainesville so my guess is he’ll stop casting pearls before this swine sooner or later.”
Is there a fact in your entire post ? What would that be ?
Is there an argument ?
There certainly lost of fallacies.
Is there any meaning at all to your mention of veracity ?
If you are going to say something – say it clearly. Don’t hide what you mean.
If you can not say what you mean forthrightly, the presumption is you do not know what you mean.
What of prescience ? I have made few predictions, and I have been clear that they were predictions. I have not mostly dealt with the future. Just the facts.
“The point John. Cut it short. You’re not that precious.”
Your not god.
Read, don’t read, that is what you have control over.
I do not give a crap about your demands.
I assume you type for others to read, but maybe not. You’re drifting into “the guy who talks to himself on Market Street.” territory.
“You’re drifting into “the guy who talks to himself on Market Street.”
Actually John isn’t drifting. He is right on target. He has a set of principles he goes by and they remain relatively constant. You are the one that drifts because you have no principles and have no allegiance to the truth. You say whatever you wish to say at the time and because of that you have no meaning. John does.
“I assume you type for others to read, but maybe not. You’re drifting into “the guy who talks to himself on Market Street.” territory.”
Back to reading minds. As well as speaking for others.
Why I write and to whom is my bussiness. Whether you choose to read is yours.
Regardless, you are not clairvoyant.
Guessing what others are thinking is not a valid argument for anything.
It is a form of ad hominem.
Do you have an actual argument to make ?
John, given the brevity, I’m almost forced to reply.
You can see I try to read and reply to many of your posts. Not many others do, and perhaps for similar reasons. That’s not mind reading, that’s interpreting information from my senses and making judgments based on years of experience. Given that almost 40% of Americans believe in Trump as a leader, I know that human faculty is more suspect than previously assumed, but I’m not one of them. I won’t give my allowance to the 1st guy I see at the State Fair.
PS I make arguments constantly which you conveniently claim you don’t understand or don’t exist. Oh well. I’m not slowing down.
“John, given the brevity, I’m almost forced to reply.”
Not forced to do anything. Government is force, police are force.
If you confuse force with free choice, you will make mistakes in judgement all over.
“You can see I try to read and reply to many of your posts.”
Your choice
“Not many others do, and perhaps for similar reasons.”
Is this a contest ?
It is not clear what you are saying, but it is likely wrong.
Mire important it is irrelevant.
“That’s not mind reading,”
Straw man.
Though when you speculate on the reasons of others – that is mind reading.
I speak for me.
You speak for you.
You do not know my thoughts.
I do not know yours.
You do not know my motives.
I do not know yours.
Neither of us speak for others.
Neither of us know the thoughts of others.
So speak for your self.
“that’s interpreting information”
Nope.
“from my senses”
seeing, hearing, smelling tasting, touching.
You are not telepathic.
“and making judgments based on years of experience.”
Still not telepathic.
I have “years of experience” that I rely on. I am still obligated to make arguments based on facts, logic, reason, not telepathy.
“Given that almost 40% of Americans believe in Trump as a leader, I know that human faculty is more suspect than previously assumed”
The world is what it is. If the left is actually right and 40% of the country is stupid and racist and easily influenced by stupid Russian FB adds, that still does not entitled you to impose your will on them by force.
One of the cores of our country is precisely that –
“that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,”
The purpose of government is to protect actual rights. A right is something that the majority can not infringe on.
I would note that only about 1/3 of colonists favored independence, about 1/3 were neutral and 1/3 were loyalists.
Do not underestimate the power of 40% of the country pissed off.
Right now we are seeing an angry 12%.
Further if 40% of the country is the idiots you seem to beleive they are – then democracy is not possible.
Regardless, no one asked you to give your allowance to Trump.
I ask, in fact I demand that you limit government. That was our founders intention.
It is irrelevant how bad our leaders are if their power is limited.
The failure of marxism, socialism, statism more generally is any scheme that will only work with great leaders – with not work EVER.
Those who chose to be politicians are pretty much exactly the people we should not want.
You want me to get pissed off about Trump – but you keep pretending that Trump was a good president. He was barely distibguishable from Bush and to the extent they are different Obama was worse.
How can one trust your judgement of Trump when you are deifying Obama.
You also refuse to accept that what went on in the late Obama administration was WRONG. Some of it was clearly criminal. Arguably alot of it was. but whether you agree it was criminal – it was wrong.
You want to judge 40% of the country negatively for supporting Trump.
Why aren’t you similarly accountable ?
“PS I make arguments constantly”
Not that I have seen.
“which you conveniently claim you don’t understand or don’t exist.”
An argument is a collection of premises
Which either both parties agree on, or one must prove by further argument.
Followed by steps that conform to the rules of logic, that lead to a conclusion.
that must be correct if the premises are true.
While we frequently fall short of that standard.
Fallacies are not argument – and you are constantly offering fallacies.
Nor are naked conclusions.
I do not expect you to prove what we agree on, and I expect the same of you.
I think we agree that qualified immunity is bad.
No one has proven that.
So far no one is claiming it needs to be proven.
But you have asserted that policing is systemically racist.
I expect that you will prove that.
Lots of people have proved lots of data to demonstrate that is not true.
Was policing systemically racist 80 years ago in the south – yes.
But we are dealing with here and now.
Is there racism in this country – absolutely. But not only are we the least racist we have ever been, it is not a consequential explanation for anything.
We are not equal, that is just a fact. I am not the athlete Colin Kaepernic is and can not hope ever to be. That limits my possibilities. It does not make having a great life any harder.
buydabook:
“John, given the brevity, I’m almost forced to reply.”
Your addiction to marathon commenting past midnight and starting anew at sunrise are instructive.
Your lack of self-regulation is staggering.
“Your addiction to marathon commenting past midnight and starting anew at sunrise are instructive.
Your lack of self-regulation is staggering.”
Your fixation on arguing to the person – ad hominem, rather than to the issues is staggering.
I set my own schedule.
Good quote. So why did you choose ignorance?
Young, thank you for proving my point.
Put a hat on it and nobody will notice. You don’t have to look funny.
Young, I get it, you don’t need to keep proving what I pointed out. There are plenty of other more nuanced examples. But if you insist on showing just how much ignorance you have be my guest.
Pull your damned pants up, your Azz is showing again.
NBA players are talking about skipping the season because of systematic racism.
Good idea! The ratio of black players far exceeds their percentage of the population. Liberals tell us this only happens because of racism–disparate outcome.
NBA should be cancelled until the races of the players are precisely proprtional to their representation in the population.
Stupid game anyway.
I am sure that many NBA players will be able to find gainful employment in the fast food industry,.
Maybe not. Many of those jobs taken by PhDs in sociology and women’s studies. If those graduate programs took a moment to show someone how to fry a hamburger they would have some value.
MofoKnows – maybe they’ll learn to code. 😉
They will have to learn to read first. Besides, all the coding positions will be filled with fired media people who told miners to learn to code.
In its absence, the need grows for basketball.
Fun fact:
Basketball was invented in 1891 in Springfield, Massachusetts by James Naismith.
– Springfield College
________________
African basketball players have committed the crime of “cultural appropriation” of the uniquely American game, as have African football players and African and Mexican baseball players. Imagine, American sports being played by Americans. There’s a novel idea. America itself has been “culturally appropriated” by foreign hyphenates because American women have vectored the American fertility rate into a “death spiral” and Americans are vanishing.
That is at once depressing and funny. As long as I can watch the collapse of civilization from the side I am not sure I care anymore.
Did you see the NPR recommendation to decolonize our libraries by removing white authors replacing them with others?
I don’t have enough knick knacks to fill the empty shelves. The public libraries would have to fill their shelves with African art or something. The contribution of ‘other’ to science and literature is close to zero. I don’t include Asian or Indian with ‘other’. NPR probably doesn’t either.
It may be that genetics exist in one of two modes: Growth and Death. America prevailed while it was growing, expanding. America has stopped expansion, aggression, and is in the death mode, apparently, due to its assumption of phantom guilt and its corollary, a complete loss of resolve.
I harbor no guilt. The Good Lord ordered mankind to go forth and multiply – Remorseless Aggression – the Constitution gave Americans the freedom to do just that, with an exponent. What has public school and the communist teachers union taught American children?
China is ascending because of its totalitarian, unrestrained, remorseless aggression.
America may have attained the “Hayflick Limit.” * America can’t even produce Americans so it’s ruling class imports the population. Based on whatever subliminal rationale (i.e. hysteria and incoherence) American women stopped giving birth to a population sufficient to defend and grow the nation. America entered the cellular death phase.
Man (i.e. America) will live forever if he deciphers and conquers the genetic death mode.
______________________________________________________________________
*
The Hayflick Limit
In youth during our growth period (up to about 18 years of age), the number of newly formed cells in our body outnumbers dying cells. In young adulthood, from about 18 to about 25 years of age, the number of newly formed cells balances the dying cells. In aging (after 25 years of age) the number of newly formed cells is less than the number of cells that die.
Aging is cells dying faster than they are replaced, or losing some of their functioning.
In 1961 Dr. Leonard Hayflick at Stanford University discovered that human cells growing in a culture of energy and nutrients could reproduce themselves only a limited number of times before all of their descendants aged and died. The maximum number of times a cell can reproduce itself is now called its “Hayflick limit”.
Each type of cell has its own Hayflick limit. Dr. Hayflick also showed that long before cells ceased to reproduce themselves they showed certain changes in their structure and functioning, such as less ability to produce energy, less ability to make enzymes quickly enough, and more waste materials inside each cell.
So Dr. Hayflick concluded that these age changes in the cells play the central role in the expression of aging in the body, and result in the death of the individual well before all of its cells fail to divide.
Death is caused by the loss of too many cells, or the loss of cell function. Many theories have been proposed to explain how Hayflick’s limit is expressed in the cells in our bodies. All of them assume that aging represents a loss of control over various bodily processes, and many of them assume that the loss of control occurs at the cellular level in the DNA of those cells.
Antifa/BLM will make up the new National Police Force for the good of the collective.
They will concentrate on racism and all other crimes will be overlooked.
Forward!
Being racist isn’t a crime. Otherwise you are on target.
So you’re saying it’s time to stop talkin’ and start chalkin’!!! Roll out the guillotines; we’ll have a barrel of fun! The totalitarian, dictatorial, unconstitutional, anti-American communists must be purged, summarily on general principle, for the survival of the American thesis, the anti-communist American Constitution and the United States of America itself. Eliminate the existential threat! Let’s get this party started!
The Sons of Liberty, the American Revolutionaries, come out into the light of day and grab the bull by the horns.
________________________________________________________________________________________
“Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.”
– George Washington
_________________
If we desire to avoid insult, we must be able to repel it; if we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known, that we are at all times ready for War.”
– George Washington
As an old 68er I have an understanding for the leftist revolutionaries. The quickest and easiest way to the top is by simply removing the older generation that occupies those positions. Working your way up is simply too hard and a lot of us would not be successful. Thankfully there are always manipulators with bullhorns (actual and media), who will deliver justifications for our overthrow actions, truth and facts have nothing to do with it. If it sounds good, we’ll use it. Once we get older though, we might discover that we’ve been pimped. The promised paradise will not materialize and we will be treated by the manipulators as what we are for them: Cattle that is there to serve them.
If you want a real revolution, start by removing the real top: Sulzberger, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Brin, Soros, Gates, Zimmer, …..
Exactly!
“Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces” (Radley Balko)
“Radley Balko – Rise of the Warrior Cop – John Jay Research Book Talk”
Excellent book. I have read it cover to cover.
It is not about Racism, and it notes that the militarization of police forces has been bipartisan, with democrats (especially Biden) falling over themselves to out do republicans.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-23368326/radley-balko-rise-of-america-s-warrior-cop
Radley Balko: Rise of America’s warrior cop
Police officers in the US today are increasingly not only armed but heavily armoured.
The author and investigative reporter Radley Balko traces this shift in his book Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.
Balko explains that race riots in the ’60s and America’s war on drugs in the subsequent decades led police departments to adopt weapons, uniforms and tactics inspired by military special forces. He writes that fears of terrorism after 9/11 accelerated the trend – even in unlikely targets such as rural Idaho.
And he argues that the military appearance of officers today makes it much harder for them to connect with civilians in communities they are policing.
Produced by the BBC’s Ashley Semler and Bill McKenna
Anonymous – watch Red Letter Media’s review Edged Weapons and you will see why they are heavily armored.
And I will agree with every single one of that Claims.
Balko’s book is pretty damning of specific aspects of policing.
These are not the ONLY thing we should be fixing.
Feelings are reality now. Childlike egocentricity is truth. You can’t win the argument because no science or logic can trump “my truth”.
??
Care to elaborate?
Anonymous……We are dealing with 3rd grade bullies, who, unfortunately, have the blessing of their teachers. Class dismissed.
Someone should explain to the “my truth” crowd that there is the truth and there is your opinion and the two may not be one and the same.
DEFUND MOVEMENT ARE BERNIE BROS
Remember Bernie Sanders? He’s that cranky old leftist Turley kept promoting in January and February. Not that Turley had any intention of voting for Bernie himself. But Turley was demanding that Democrats nominate him because ‘Hillary had rigged the 2016 Primary against poor Bernie’.
You see last winter, Trump enablers like Turley were hoping and praying that Bernie would split the Democrats. That way Trump could glide to easy victory in November. So Turley wrote columns in which he gushed about the youthful ‘energy’ of Sanders supporters. Turley felt it was really important that Democrats ‘listen’ to the Bernie Bros because they were bubbling with raw idealism.
So here we are in late spring, after a wave of mass protests, and the Bernie Bros literally want to defund police departments. Of course it’s a nutty idea! Bernie Bros are full of nutty ideas (which mainstream Democrats have always known). Yet instead of gushing about their youthful energy, Turley seeks to portray the Bernie Bros as mainstream Democrats while warning the party is pandering to extremists.
This stupid ‘Defund The Police’ movement is a really good example of why the Democrats wanted nothing to do with Bernie Sanders or his supporters. They are leftwing extremists intent on sabotaging the Democrats. And Turley was totally disengenous when he kept saying that Hillary ‘rigged the 2016 primary’s. Mainstream Democrats shunned Bernie because Sanders was clearly outside the mainstream. The Bernie Bros are nothing but quasi Maoists who would gladly bring on a Cultural Revolution.
In this age of Trump, lunacy has gained a firm foothold.
Jonathan: Conservative thinkers always trot out Jacques Mallet Pan’s famous quote when they see a social revolution spinning out of control. Pan was no lover of democracy. He was a French “Royalist” opposed to the French Revolution who, under instructions from Loius XVI, tried to get German princes to intervene and put down the revolution. Like Pan our own “Royalists” see an alarming trend in the continuing uprising over the murder of George Floyd and police violence. They regard the demands to defund or disband police departments as upsetting the traditional order. They continue to label random theft and vandalism as just “opportunistic crimes” and mass peaceful protest as the work of outside “anarchist agitators”–not bothering to understand the economic and racial injustices that sparked the continuing uprising. “Royalists” like to portray homegrown radical political action as something alien and foreign to the action itself.
So when citizens, black, white and brown, rise up against economic exploitation and police brutality–and demand “a society that is based on equality and cooperation” “Royalists” sound the alarm by labeling this anti-fascist movement as “anti-free speech” and “violent”. Then they resurrect the ghost of Jacques Mallet Pan to try to scare the hell out of the rest of us!
Dennis– I don’t think it matters whether Pan was not a lover of democracy or otherwise held ideas that you don’t like.
His observation was astute and it seems to play out again and again. That is why he is often quoted.
The Democrats tailor their ideas to the polls. They said they supported defunding the police, realized they stepped in it, and are trying to scrape it off their Jimmy Choo shoes. The radicals want to rub their faces in it.
The China virus has mutated. Vaccines can’t protect from China virus mutations.
Lungs of a healthy human infected, look worse than someone who smoked for 40 years.
Atlanta Mayor Keisha Bottoms is in for a rude awakening. I can’t breath.
Here is proof progressives will not totally abolish law enforcement.
When they are gone who will collect the taxes?
Or take our guns?
Sir Cumference– Ohhh, that is a good one. Do you suppose they will muster enough soy boys to try it ?
Everyone running around screaming with their hair on fire that leftists are propagating some nefarious movement is focusing more on their unsubstantiated feelings than their rationality.
“Abolishing the police” is just a crude way of saying dissolving a police Department. Since the biggest impediment to real reform here is the police union the legal way to nullify a union contract’s stipulations is to dissolve the department and start a new one.
This way everyone re-applies and problem officers are weeded out. It was done in Camden NJ with observable success. Turley here is just trotting out BS making people think actual abolishing of police departments without mention of replacement is literally what “leftists” want.
We agree and that has been JT’s goal for months here – propaganda smearing the Democrats with rantings from 4th teir columnists, MSNBC hosts, and occasional political loons.
But it’s what this audience wants.
Bythebook, what is clearly evident to me is the majority of JT’s audience is hugely dependent on willful ignorance. Ignorance is the biggest obstacle dealing with issues such as Trump’s incompetence, and the need to face up to continued racism this country never got to truly acknowledge. Keeping people ignorant is very easy. JT lately has been displaying a form of willful ignorance that seems to feed off his need to be important. His credibility as an “intellectual” erodes every time he posts lately. I don’t think he is being rational at all. Dave Chapelle is a true intellectual compared to JT and that says a lot.
“Ignorance is the biggest obstacle dealing with issues such as Trump’s incompetence”
So please cite FACTS to support this.
I do not want to here about feelings.
I do not want to hear that some leaders somewhere do not respect us
I do not want to here about policy differences.
I want to hear about demonstrable evidence of failure.
Is the US involved in more foreign wars ?
Is the US more dependent on foreign energy ?
We are still not through the economic impact of C19,.
but soon we should be.
We should be able to measure whether recovery under Trump was faster than Obama.
We should by November be able to measure whether the economy as a whole over 4 years performed better under Obama or Trump
Regardless, if you wish to claim Trump is obviously incompetent that should be easy to support.
Persuing policies that have demonstrably failed – would be incompetence.
Not following ones you disagree with.
You say that those who do not share your view of Trump do so out of ignorance.
Then enlighten us – with FACTS.
“and the need to face up to continued racism this country never got to truly acknowledge.”
This country is racist and always will be.
Every country, every people are racist.
It is inante,
The question is whether modern US racism has any significant impact.
The answer is no.
Any one of about a dozen factors has an order of magnitude more impact on minorites that racism. Everyone of those factors equally effects poor whites, poor hispanics.
“Keeping people ignorant is very easy.”
It certainly appears to be -you have not come up with any facts to support your arguments,
John, you go on fire – again I didn’t read it all – about facts, provide none, and mouth absurdities like:
Staying out of a foreign war while trying to start one is not the only accomplishment available to the US, once the leader in world events, nor are booming production of a non-renewal energy source begun before the current occupant much of one.
We don’t know the bottom of Covid, let alone it’s economic impact, but unlike Obama, Trump has mae the beginning much worse through stupid and pollyannish wishful thinking, an incoherent and weak response he advocates against, and a too quick almost total abandonment based on the election season, not medicine.
Obama was in a recovery, Trump wasn’t. Over his 1st 3 years Trump’s new jobs numbers were lower than Obama’s last 3. GDP in those periods were roughly equal and that is after the $1 trillion deficit busting rich guys stimulus passed in Trump’s 1st year. I’ve posted these numbers before, but absent any facts from you I’m not doing it again.
Did I mention the Mexicans are not paying for his puny wall?
Why don’t you name some accomplishments?
“Staying out of a foreign war while trying to start one is not the only accomplishment available to the US,”
It is a good start.
“once the leader in world events”
It is easily arguable that we are more of a leader now.
But more importantly “So What” ?
“nor are booming production of a non-renewal energy source begun before the current occupant much of one.”
At odds with the facts. Obama and democrats celebrated their restriction of fracking and pipelines. You can not have it both ways.
“We don’t know the bottom of Covid”
At this point we have enough data that even ordinary people can judge – but if you doubt that – there are experts. recent studies using the IMIE Model – you know the everything is going to hell model, with inputs adjusted to reflect what we have learned, have established that no action of any government has had any consequential impact on C19. That the variations between countries have no statistically significant correlation to any policies, and that they are best explained by demographic differences, and other factors such as diet and latitude.
Frankly that should be obvious to all without experts at this time.
We tried to do something that has never been done before – stop an aerosole spread virus once it had escaped containment.
We failed.
That was inevitable.
“let alone it’s economic impact,”
We will recover and all indications are that we will recover rapidly.
But absolutely we made the poor choice to lock down the economy and that made the economic damage much worse with no health benefit.
“but unlike Obama, Trump has mae the beginning much worse through stupid and pollyannish wishful thinking, an incoherent and weak response he advocates against, and a too quick almost total abandonment based on the election season, not medicine.”
Facts ? Given that there is no evidence that any policy of any country actually worked, How could Trump have done worse ?
“Obama was in a recovery, Trump wasn’t.”
There are only two instances of incredibly weak recovery – the great depression and the Great Recession. The Depression of 1921 (and several others) were worse than the financial crisis and were over in 18 months. Obama was president for 8 years.
Obama presided over one of the weakest recoveries in US history – that is a failure.
Trump has not done as well as he claims. He has not manage to reach the 20th century average. But he has done 50% better than Obama.
Trading Economics is still showing a 0.3% growth rate for 2020 – based on Q1.
It is probable that the US will have a precipitous single quarter negative growth.
It is likely we will never be officially in recession as that requires 3 negative quarters.
Current TE projected 2020 GDP is in line with what would have occured had Obama growth continued through 2020.
So Trump’s current worst case economically is that he has a massive single quarter economic hit as a result of C19 and still matches Obama’s performance.
” Over his 1st 3 years Trump’s new jobs numbers were lower than Obama’s last 3. ”
Of course they are – we were seeing LFP and UE that have no historic precident.
When Trump was elected – we were purportedly already at “full employment”
It is not supposed to be possible to improve from that an yet we did.
“GDP in those periods were roughly equal ”
Only if rough is a 50% difference.
Go look at Trading Economics.
Further note Obama took office at the bottom of the recession.
He had nowhere to go but up. And still he averaged 1.8% Growth – Less that even Bush – who had nearly all the effects of the great recession in hes last 2 quarters.
“and that is after the $1 trillion deficit busting rich guys stimulus passed in Trump’s 1st year”
Wasn’t a stimulus, it was a Tax cut and the primary beneficiaries are ordinary people,
” I’ve posted these numbers before, but absent any facts from you I’m not doing it again.”
And you would be more credible if you got them right.
“Did I mention the Mexicans are not paying for his puny wall?”
Do I care ?
BTW in an odd way they are. Immigration from Mexico is WAY down. Primarily because Trump has Mexico stopping people either at their southern border or in mexico.
So Mexico is doing much of the job of US border enforcement.
“Why don’t you name some accomplishments?”
I have.
No new wars.
A better economy than bush or Obama.
Actually reducing regulation without any deletorious effects.
Working towards fixing a very broken federal judiciary.
A flatter simpler tax code.
Getting Europe out from Russia’s Thral, There energy supply has been guaranteed by Trump and they are SLOWLY working to take responsibility for their own defense.
Making the Mideast a bit less messy.
Shifting the balance of power in Asia to contain Chinese hedgemony.
Criminal justice reform.
Energy independence
Some of these accomplishments are small. But none happened under Obama.
The situation in Europe got worse, Asia got worse. The mideast got worse.
Or I can just say – “its Obvious”
Perfection is the enemy of good.
Trump is good
Obama was bad.
Biden is permanently out to lunch.
🙂
It is unlikely I will choose to vote for Trump.
There is no possibility I would vote for Biden.
Regardless, I am capable of looking at Obama, Biden, Bush, Trump, …..
And noting the positive attributes and accomplishments as well as the failures of each.
I did not vote for Obama, but he was elected.
The day after the election I prayed two things.
That everything I was certain was true was wrong and that what Obama was near certain to do would somehow work.
That Obama would grow into the shoes of the president and do what was right rather than what he promised.
Neither prayer was answered.
Worse, on the few issues that I agreed with Obama he did NOT do what he promised.
Obama was a very poor president. By 2016 I would have ranked him and Bush nearly equally bad.
But based on what we have learned since he is the most corrupt president we have ever had.
Who today beleive Fast & Furious did not go to the whitehouse ?
Who now beleives that IRS Gate did not go to the white house ?
That lying about Benghazi was not a white house strategy ?
We have an administration that was linking Putin’s balls for 8 years, that suddenly after Trump win’s decides that the Soviet Union has been reborn and that Trump – rather than themselves was colluding with Putin.
AGAIN – When Alex Jones is right about alot of things – something is very very wrong.
When EVER has a large government conspiracy theory proved true before ?
“It is unlikely I will choose to vote for Trump.
There is no possibility I would vote for Biden.”
AS we have discussed before your vote is your vote and I don’t think your one vote is going to count. If suddenly you found that your one vote did have such an impact on the nation then you would have to live with another one or Two sotomayor’s instead of a potential Gorsuch on the bench. I am sure you would kick yourself unless emotion is totally lacking.
Fortunately that hasn’t happened, and likely won’t.
John Say,
I agree with what you have said but I have not heard this charge before:
“We have an administration that was linking Putin’s balls for 8 years”
I don’t doubt that it’s true but it sounds very painful.
Hyperbole.
Regardless, there is plenty of evidence that the Obama administration sought a less adversarial relationship with Putin for 7 years and 10 months of his presidency.
Nothing changed until after Trump won the election.
With a few specific exceptions, I actually agree with the Obama administations generally more concilliatory attitude toward Russia.
There are a few specific decisions involving Russia I disagree with. But not the overall tenor.
Regardless, Russia is neither friend nor enemy. We can expect them to act in their interests, as we do in ours. Often those interest align.
John, then you are not familiar with recent history.
When Obama took office, Putin was not the President – though in the background – and among other things we achieved an update on nuclear defense treaties during what was a hopeful “reset” period. Hillary was not in favor of this policy, which was one of several reasons for Russia’s helping Trump in 2016. Russia also allowed us to use their airspace going into Afghanistan and Obama dropped the nuclear shield in Eastern Europe – it was redesigned to be mobile and available for targeting the ME as well as Eastern Europe. Joint sanctions against Iran led to the nuclear deal signed in 2015. The reset came to an end in 2014 after Russia annexed Crimea and began aggression toward the Ukraine. The US enacted variious sanctions which severely damaged the Russian economy – look at their GDP.
“When Obama took office, Putin was not the President – though in the background – and among other things we achieved an update on nuclear defense treaties during what was a hopeful “reset” period.”
As I said Obama was positively engaged with Russia.
We should want that.
From Obama,
From Trump.
“Hillary was not in favor of this policy,”
She also fomented a coup in Ukraine.
But then she implimented her “russian reset” and made russians so happy they contributed 140M to the Clinton Foundation, and 500K to Bill Clinton personally.
“which was one of several reasons for Russia’s helping Trump in 2016.”
The Putin/Clinton relationship had its ups and downs.
But the actual CIA/NSA/FBI analysts determined that Putin felt he was more able to work with Clinton – that she was more maleable, and that Trump was likely to impliment the policies he proposed and that would be detrimental to russia.
We can not know how Clinton would have dealt with Russia.
But the claim there was some deep animus to clinton is nonsense.
Russian Oligarchs do not contribute 100’s of millions of dollars to people Putin is pissed at. Nor are 500K speaking fees given to putin enemies.
Alot was made of Trump tower Moscow. Did that happen ?
Do you honestly beleive if Putin favored Trump it would not have ?
“Russia also allowed us to use their airspace going into Afghanistan”
You seem to think i am critical of every aspect of Obama’s dealings with Russia.
With few exceptions I support – sometimes strongly most DIRECT dealings Obama had with Russia. Most of what you mention.
I do not support the U1 deal it is either corrupt or corrupting.
But otherwise is not a big deal.
I do not support Obama’s indirect dealings with Russia.
his crappy energy policy.
I do not know what you mean by “dropping the nuclear shield in Europe”
Failing to deploy ABM’s in poland was a mistake.
Further contra your claim Obama set back ABM research substantially.
You fretted about Trump’s confrontations with NK.
NK has nukes, they either have or are just shy of hydrogen bombs.
They have ICBM’s but between guidance, payload and range issues they can not yet reach the US. Trump has fast tracked (expensively) our ABM development. We are playing catchup. We must improve our abillty to defend ourselves and the rest of the pacific From the threat of NK nukes and we have a very small time window to do so – because Obama dropped the ball – because Obama sought to placate Russia.
And absolutely the same necescary exists regarding the mideast.
Iran will get nukes and short of war there is nothing we can do about that.
Most of their enemies are nearer, They already have IRBM’s and ICBM’s that can reach them. Regardless, the missle defenses needed to thwart NK are the same as those needed to thwart Iran.
And if you do not want even more nations to develop nuclear capabilities, the best means to do so is to make sure that those capabilities are useless and dangerous.
“Joint sanctions against Iran led to the nuclear deal signed in 2015.”
Iran has been the subject of intensive sanctions for decades.
“The reset came to an end in 2014 after Russia annexed Crimea and began aggression toward the Ukraine.”
All with Obama as president.
From just before the 2008 election through to the 2016 election, Russia has been militarily aggressive.
What new Russian threat has emerged since 2017 ?
“The US enacted variious sanctions which severely damaged the Russian economy – look at their GDP.”
The russian economy was destroyed by capital flight when they invaded Ukraine.
Their economy collapsed long before any sanctions.
Frankly Russia is a mess, They are the world largest nuclear power.
They have a shrinking population. Unlike most of the rest of the USSR they botched the shift to capitalism, but for their fossil fuel reserves they would have become a third world country. Their military is rusting in place. They have developed some fanciful new weapons but they can not build them or sell them.
There are serious reasons to be careful about Russia – failing powers are very very dangerous. But China not russia is the closest thing to a superpower threat.
Before Trump, Before Obama US policy started a shift to China facing rather than Russia facing. While that has become obvious under Trump, and again Obama handled China abysmally. the shift in focus to China was inevitiable.
Though interestingly lots of the Trump/Russia and Trump/Ukraine nonsense was merely the last vestiges of the Russian Cold Warriors trying to hold power.
If you wish to throw moral hand grenades then you are obligated to prove your case.
If you want to call the country, whites, Trump, JT, Me, or anyone on the planet a racist. You are obligated to prove that.
You do not get to run arround shouting liar, racist, homophobe, mysoginist, hateful, hating hater, without proving your allegations.
If you fail to do so, it is YOUR integrity, YOUR character that is blackened.
Truth is the only defense to defamation.
So PROVE your accusations.
Svelaz never proves anything. He posses what he talks about, “willful ignorance”. If he brought fact to the table or proof it would be another story but he seldom does and on the rare occasions he does the evidence is inadequate compared to opposing evidence presented.
Maybe Svelaz can change and be part of a real discussion. I don’t think he has such abilities.
Allan, it’s amusing when some folks demand proof of assertions and claims that are readily dismissed as soon as it contradicts someone’s argument. When presented with irrefutable proof or direct quotes or statements contradicting claims or conspiracy theories willful ignorance tears it’s ugly head.
I’ve seen it multiple times here. There are a few who make good rational arguments with relevant citations and correct understanding of the issue. But no matter how many times they are made the same debunked or refuted arguments against are used to “prove” their reasoning is correct. That’s a form of ignorance. So rather than admit an argument or claim is no longer true the discussion devolves into grievances over pointless minutiae that might, just might validate an already debunked or dispelled claim. There rarely is a real discussion on these forums.
Empty talk. Not a smigen of any tangible discussion. You bloviate but can’t produce.
“Allan, it’s amusing when some folks demand proof of assertions and claims that are readily dismissed as soon as it contradicts someone’s argument. When presented with irrefutable proof or direct quotes or statements contradicting claims or conspiracy theories willful ignorance tears it’s ugly head.”
But you have not done so. You keep saying it is obvious.
And that “realtime” somehow means something.
Life is “realtime”.
“I’ve seen it multiple times here.”
“There are a few who make good rational arguments with relevant citations and correct understanding of the issue.”
The very use of “correct understanding” undermines your argument.
Facts, logic, reason.
A valid argument produces a result that is true or false.
There is no “correct understanding”.
Where facts and logic can not produce true or false results, we are in the domain of oppinions.
Though I would note that claiming something is an oppinion does not make it so.
” But no matter how many times they are made the same debunked or refuted arguments against are used to “prove” their reasoning is correct. :
Yet I do not see that from the left.
I see this nonsense like you offer – this “I do not have to prove it because it is obvious, or realtime” nonsense. Followed by arguments like this one – that you have already proven something so you do not have to do so again.
I have not seen a valid argument from you yet, much less proof of anything.
You do not seem to understand logic at all.
Thank you John.
“I have not seen a valid argument from you yet, much less proof of anything. You do not seem to understand logic at all.”
That says it all.
John Say,
“ Regardless, if you wish to claim Trump is obviously incompetent that should be easy to support.
Persuing policies that have demonstrably failed – would be incompetence.”
Have you not paid attention to the president’s comments, ideas, constant lying, contradictory claims, abrupt policy shifts, disorganized responses to emergencies and etc, etc, etc.?
The very fact that you have to ask to make my case when it’s being made in what can be described as an hourly basis clearly points out you are not really paying attention.
You’re asking me to prove to you something that is happening in real time. Do you really need assistance in recognizing it? In pointing it out? Really?
I could provide clues, articles, events, attitudes, historical precedent till the end of time and you still wouldn’t get it. That’s the point that gets proven here all the time. There are literally commentators who are shown exactly proof of what they demand and still deny it.
The truth is in every thread on this blog. The racial innuendo, insults, ignorance. It’s all there. So if you want proof just read thru the comments. That’s my case.
“Have you not paid attention to the president’s comments, ideas, constant lying, contradictory claims, abrupt policy shifts, disorganized responses to emergencies and etc, etc, etc.?”
I would ask you to prove each of these – noting that it is now OBVIOUS that on some of the most major issues of the past 4 years Trump has been correct, and you, the media, the left, democrats have been wrong.
You say I should not trust Trump because he lies. Then why should I trust you, the media, democrats, the left ? You have all OBVIOUSLY lied – alot over the past 4 years. And over very serious matters.
Regardless, BE SPECIFIC.
If you wish to persuade me, then you need to make your case with facts, logic reason.
I do not care much about the words of politicians. They all lie.
That said Trump has a record of truthfulness that is unmatched by any politician in my life.
He has kept most of his campaign promises and tried to keep the rest.
Even the ones I oppose.
If you are telling me that Biden WILL do as well – then I must vote for Trump.
God forbid Biden keeps his promises.
What policy shifts ? Trump was elected to reduce taxes, regulation, get us out of pointless foreign wars, reduce regulation, restore a judiciary that would follow the law and constitution as written, secure more favorable trade deals, and secure our borders.
Which of those has he shifted on ?
If it is “obvious” as you say, it should be easy to show.
“The very fact that you have to ask to make my case when it’s being made in what can be described as an hourly basis clearly points out you are not really paying attention.”
If your remarks are true – then it is easier to demonstrate then yo continue this nonsense of yours.
When I look arround, I see that in myriads of ways the country is better off than it was 4 years ago.
Trump did not cause C19. Ti the extent any world leaders have handled it better – that would be places like Sweden, that did not handle it at all.
Regardless we will get through it, and it is now clear that no one thinks it is the existential crisis they claimed when they were trying to make it all Trump’s fault.
The economy did better under Trump than it has for the prior 16 years. That is a big deal, that is a higher standard of living and a better life for all of us.
Had Obama managed 3% avg growth – democrats would have permanent control of all government. Had he managed even 2.25% Clinton would have been elected.
Bush and Obama failed the country.
Both of them got us into numerous Military conflicts in the Mideast.
Trump has nearly gotten us out of them.
“You’re asking me to prove to you something that is happening in real time. Do you really need assistance in recognizing it? In pointing it out? Really?”
I do not care whether it is happening in real time or not.
Yes, I am asking you to prove your argument – with facts, logic reason.
Regardless, unless you are planning a coup, or impeachment, your “real time” claim is irrelevant. You have between now and November to make your case.
“I could provide clues, articles, events, attitudes, historical precedent till the end of time”
Then do so. Do not tel me what you can do – frankly, I do not beleive you.
You, the left, the media, democrats have been caught lying big time, you are not entitled to my beleif.
Facts, logic, reason, make your case.
“and you still wouldn’t get it. That’s the point that gets proven here all the time. There are literally commentators who are shown exactly proof of what they demand and still deny it.”
Then the facts and arguments should be readily available to you.
“The truth is in every thread on this blog. The racial innuendo, insults, ignorance. It’s all there. So if you want proof just read thru the comments. That’s my case.”
The typical blog is full of insults. while characteristic of all sides, that was introduced – or atleast formalized by Saul Alinsky in Rules for radicals.
Regardless, I strive to avoid insults. But I can not help your emotional response to facts, logic, reason.
Post modernism, modern progressivism are essentially marxism with various victim statuses substituting for class. Marxism not merely failed but it failed bloodily.
Anyone selling any permutation of marxism today should not be surprised by insults.
Ignorance is corrected by facts, logic, reason. I am sorry that you have been so poorly educated. I an sorry that you have not been given a solid knowledge of history or the tools for critical thinking. Your parents and teachers have failed you.
But ultimately it is your life – not theirs and you must live it.
Excellent.
I especially liked Trump “has kept most of his campaign promises and tried to keep the rest. Even the ones I oppose.
If you are telling me that Biden WILL do as well – then I must vote for Trump. God forbid Biden keeps his promises.
That reminds me of a friend who votes solely on party and so happens to be more aware of the world around her than most on this blog. We were talking about a major candidate where she was going to vote for the Democratic candidate whose reputation was atrocious. We went through almost 10 major items where she agreed with the Republican candidate and disagreed with the Democrat. When asked how she could vote for what the Democratic candidate stood for her answer was the ‘he wouldn’t keep any of the promises and nor would they be passed’.The other one, she said was ‘a horrid man ‘but she couldn’t say one specific thing that was horrid about him. This is a problem that occurs all too frequently. Brainwashed?
Dhili, “ They all lie.
That said Trump has a record of truthfulness that is unmatched by any politician in my life.
He has kept most of his campaign promises and tried to keep the rest.
Even the ones I oppose.”
It seems as nearly everyone on this forum still does fail to grasp what is happening around you. You ask for specific examples of trump lying while couching that with “all politicians lie”.
Trump is certainly a compulsive liar. It is evident many are willing to overlook that as long as he “keeps his promises”. Many of which he has not kept. Let’s discuss the wall. He said Mexico will pay for it and he would build it faster than anyone else. That still didn’t happen AND it cost taxpayers far more than he claimed. He also claimed it would be impenetrable. Smugglers have cut into it already with ease.
What I see here are massive cases of cognitive dissonance. That alone makes any attempt to provide proof futile. All I can do is point out the gross ignorance many show here.
The Wall is the best Svelaz can do. It was a campaign promise and unlike Obama Trump tried to keep this promise. He fought tooth and nail. It wasn’t easy to win the major battle that permitted the wall to be built but Trump won. Impenatrable? Nothing is impenatrable but I guess with your intellect you were unable to consider that. A bit of puffery yes but essentially that wall is keeping a lot of people out and funnelling others where border patrol wants them. I don’t know that anyone literally cut through his wall so one could drive a truck full of female slaves or drugs through. You will have to provide the exact location on the new wall to validate your claim. As John has said we have gotten a lot of cooperation from Mexico helping us prevent illegals that would have cost us a lot of money to prevent.
I never took it literally that Mexico would write a check for the wall. I guess you did. That places you in the category of a 7 year old when someone comes by for a reality check.
If the Wall is what you consider to be the worst lie of Trump then I think he is greater than I already think he is. You must have a very low opinion of yourself to use the Wall as your best example.
Svelaz, Trump is obviously a lying bragging scumbag who is also stupid, has no desire to learn anything, and is divisisve too boot. You just need to be a sensate adult – hey most teenagers would get it – to know that, so know excuse for anyone still supporting him. Here’s a recent sample:
https://twitter.com/funder/status/1258742453441617920
“Trump is obviously a lying bragging scumbag who is also stupid, has no desire to learn anything, and is divisisve too boot. You just need to be a sensate adult – hey most teenagers would get it – to know that, so know excuse for anyone still supporting him. Here’s a recent sample:”
More of this “obvious” is an argument – the earth is obviously flat, the earth is obviously the center of the universe.
One of the most reliable measure of intelligence is success. Intelligence strongly correlates with success. Those who have succeeded in multiple domains have even stronger correlations with intelligence.
Trump has succeeded in
Residential real estate in NY
Commerical real estate in NY
Global residential and commerical real estate.
Cassino’s
Global Branding
Beauty pagents.
reality TV.
and politics.
That success is not random chance.
John, I”m sorry but Trump’s biggest success story is the family he was born in. There is scant evidence of success elsewhere because for some reason he hides it. You do know he was bailed out by Russians and Deaustche Banke right? In the meantime, as president, he’s an obvious and abject failure. One imagines a “libertarian” would get that printing hot checks to try and keep up – just barely – with your predecessor does not look like success,
“John, I”m sorry but Trump’s biggest success story is the family he was born in.”
There is no doubt Trump was born with a silver Spoon.
But he inherited a modest residential realestate empire outside of manhattan.
Everything else was created by him.
“You do know he was bailed out by Russians and Deaustche Banke right? ”
So you say.
Regardless, banks – especially German ones do not lend money to people who will not be able to pay it back, or to businesses that do not have the collateral to cover the loans.
Only governments actually bail businesses out – not banks.
“In the meantime, as president, he’s an obvious and abject failure.”
Because you say so ?
Evidence.
You have not been able to come up with a real agument beyond “I do not like him”
I do not like him either. That is not the point.
“One imagines a “libertarian” would get that printing hot checks”
Have I claimed to support Trump fully ?
I would have veto’d every single C19 bill recently past and the $3T in wasteful spending.
I am at odds with Trump on immigration, but I am more at odds with the left.
If you want open borders, you must give of the entitlement state.
They are not compatible.
I am opposed to Trump’s posturing on Trade.
Not that Obama’s quieter Trade deals were better.
Trade is simple, the country with the lowest barriers benefits the most.
Let the chinese subsidize US consumption.
Trump is not libertarian.
I did not vote for him.
But he was the lessor of two evils.
And he remains that in 2020.
And most of what you fixate on is style not substance.
John, your selective indignation is fortunately spared you in this room full of right wing hand grenade throwers. Svelaz, others, and I can take it or we wouldn’t hang around.
If your ears are that delicate, wait in the car.
“John, your selective indignation is fortunately spared you in this room full of right wing hand grenade throwers. Svelaz, others, and I can take it or we wouldn’t hang around.
If your ears are that delicate, wait in the car.”
ANYONE right or left who is making claims of the moral failure of others, is obligated to prove them.
I will defend my own “moral hand grenades” – I expect you to do the same.
That said – what are the major claims of moral failure that those on the right here have made that are obviously false ?
If you can identify the serious false moral claims of others here, right or left, I will join you in condemning them.
But were have blown the entire country up over this Trump nonsense of the left.
And it is demonstrably wrong.
When every in US history has a major conspiracy theory proved correct ?
The grassy Knoll ? The faked moon landing ?
When Alex Jones is more credible than Jake Tapper there is a very very serious problem.
John, moral claims are made here all the time and mostly from right wing blowhards. Svelaz comments were measured in contrast. By the way, I’m not seeing many proven facts coming from you.
Those that are blind cannot see. Your harness directs you where to go.
“John, moral claims are made here all the time and mostly from right wing blowhards. ”
Most parents learn to reject the “but johnny did it too” defense very quickly.
Further, I am specifically addressing claims of moral failure and particularly those directed at individuals.
You Lie, Trump lies, not stealing is immoral.
“Svelaz comments were”
horse pucky.
A long diatribe on hinging on obvious and real time.
“I’m not seeing many proven facts coming from you.”
Then you should be able to identify them
Regardless, that argument was NOT about facts or factual error,
There is rarely a moral failure in factual error – short of deliberate lies.
The cost to factual errors is credibility.
False moral accusations are are paid for with your integrity.
Please shut — —- up or cite the Constitution where holding opinions on race (i.e. difference) are precluded. You deliberately and fraudulently conflate violence with racism. You support the proposition that one can only be a fan of the New York Giants and can never be a fan of the Dallas Cowboys, which is to prefer one over the other. You must be out of your —-ing mind to believe the dominion of the principles of the Communist Manifesto in America. Compulsory, dictatorial, communist social engineering is the diametric opposite of American freedom of speech, belief and assembly. No American has any right to enjoy government favor or entitlements. No American has right to government provided success in life. Americans have the absolute right and freedom to be as racist (i.e. to acknowledge differences) as they choose to be, while the entire American welfare state is irrefutably unconstitutional. The prime false supports of Africans, generational welfare, affirmative action privilege, forced busing, TANF, WIC, HAMP, HARP, HUD, HHS, Obamacare, etc., are illicit, illegal and unconstitutional, whereas they may be imposed at will by communist dictators. Indeed, the legally seceded CSA would have returned to the fold after slavery was ended through free-speech advocacy, boycotts, divestiture and other free market and free enterprise tools.
Pay the —- attention to American freedom or continue to be the enemy of it.
The only “legal” facts that apply to race in America are that slaves became illegal aliens and must have been deported. Secession was universally legal and a natural and God-given right when the American Founders seceded from Great Britain (the British monarchy was a dictatorship) and it was legal and constitutional when the CSA seceded from the U.S.
The only thing wrong with America is that the crimes and unconstitutional acts of “Crazy Abe” Lincoln and his successors persist to this day. In the American Constitutional Renaissance, when the “manifest tenor” of the Constitution is re-implemented as “original intent,” “Crazy Abe’s” aberrant constitutional abominations will be fully abrogated and the fundamental law of the Founders will prevail as it did until the constitutional nullfication-cum-destruction by “Crazy Abe” Lincoln.
John, again I didn’t read all that. Learn some f….g self discipline will you? Clearly I will read what you write and respond – some of it – but it’s f…g rude and against civilized discussion to spit out that much crap each time. It’s mostly not even very good and if you slim it down maybe it will improve.
Briefly, your judgement of what makes a good president is …. let’s say unique, and you’re welcome to it. I’ll remind you that the last time you claimed Obama was terrible and Trump better, you called the historians who ranked Barack 12th in history Marxists, even though they had Reagan 8th (approx – ck me). Going by your guidelines for Trump, no wonder you suck at it.
Look at a curve on US gas production.
Surrendering world leadership – as you do – has dire consequences in an interconnected world in which we are the #1 economy and military power.
PS ” experts outside government conclude that the country’s (North Korea) arsenal is far larger than it was when the leaders held the historic meeting, the first of three. The estimates vary, but most conclude the North has amassed enough fuel for about 20 nuclear weapons in the time since the two men strolled through a garden in Singapore for the ultimate post-Cold War photo opportunity. NYTs has an article today on NK stockpiling nuclear weapons grade.”
Maybe you’re content is the ideological purity of libertarianism, but most of the rest ofunderstand there is a world to run and runs on pragmatic solutions, not theories.
The Great Recession was world wide – you get that right? Yes, recovery was slow – ALL OVER THE F…..G WORLD AND THE US DID THE BEST AT COMING OUT OF IT, ALONG WITH GERMANY. Clearly you are using the wrong ruler and probably got it from the same “austerity, austerity” Republicans who don’t give a f..k for austerity anymore. They were stupid and dishonest.
Burnthebook: Learn some f….g self discipline will you?
Translation: feed me more crystal meth since my dealer in Alachua was killed by BLM rioters in Gainesville. They demanded more free sTuff and now im Tweaking
Cundy. Again.
Touché.
Thats all they have: drive by scorched earth tactics as their religion
” It’s mostly not even very good and if you slim it down maybe it will improve.”
John answered you one step at a time.
Your facts are fallacies.
Your logic is non existant.
Your personal lack of brevity is at odds with your claims against others.
Your rudeness and need for four letter words exactly portrays who you are.
Your call to authority is wrongly placed and quite inadequate.
John Say was not displaying libertarian thinking. He was displaying common sense and knowledge of the events taking place. You displayed none of that.
Bringing up isolated data points does nothing to promote your argument. It only means that you read talking points without the ability to think critically as to what those talking points actually mean.
John has done a fabulous job putting you in your place. Right now you look like a disected frog.
thank you
“Learn some f….g self discipline will you?”
Ad hominem.
“Clearly I will read what you write and respond – some of it – but it’s f…g rude and against civilized discussion to spit out that much crap each time. It’s mostly not even very good and if you slim it down maybe it will improve.”
You have an odd definition of rude,
Regardless, I am not interested in your style comments,
“Briefly, your judgement of what makes a good president is …. let’s say unique, and you’re welcome to it. ”
So why do you need to state the obvious
“I’ll remind you that the last time you claimed Obama was terrible and Trump better,” “you called the historians who ranked Barack 12th in history Marxists”
No I said modern academics particularly in the humanities are mostly marxists.
Are you disagree ?
Regardless, appeals to authority are fallacies.
Make your claim that Obama was a good president based on facts, logic reason – not someone else says so.
“even though they had Reagan 8th (approx – ck me).”
Do I care ?
“Look at a curve on US gas production.”
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstaticshare.america.gov%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F09%2Foil_production_chart-2018-1024×651.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
“Surrendering world leadership – as you do – has dire consequences in an interconnected world in which we are the #1 economy and military power.”
Multiple unsupported assumptions.
I do not agree that we have surrendered anything.
In fact I beleive we are in a stronger position of leadership.
But we are doing so by example rather than by building consensus.
That is a difference of values.
The results will determine what is most effective.
That said I do not presume that the US must be the world leader, or that the consequence would be dire.
That is the argument Mattis made in his recent book. That is the argument that lead to US interventions all over the world.
If you want US troops fighiting all over the world and deployed in foriegn countries for decades – go with Bush, Obama, or Mattis.
I do not.
” experts outside government conclude that the country’s (North Korea) arsenal is far larger than it was when the leaders held the historic meeting, the first of three. The estimates vary, but most conclude the North has amassed enough fuel for about 20 nuclear weapons in the time since the two men strolled through a garden in Singapore for the ultimate post-Cold War photo opportunity. NYTs has an article today on NK stockpiling nuclear weapons grade.”
I do not want experts, I want evidence.
Regardless, I am not prepared to go to war with Iran or NK or Iraq to prevent those countries from developing nuclear weapons.
I would hope we can dissuade them from doing so.
But if force is the only means to stop them, them we may not do so.
Next, the threat from NK is not nuclear weapons. NK has had nukes for decades.
The NK threat is ICBM’s. And the most critical response from the US was not in negotiations with NK, but in advancing ABM development.
The most cost effective means of dealing with NK ICBM’s is THADD – killing an ICBM on assent. But that requires permanent deployment of AEGIS very near NK.
Further there is a narrow time window – about 3 minutes to detect a launch, determine its target and fire an interceptor before you are in a losing tail chase.
The next most effective means is a space based missle defense system.
This has the advantage of time, and targeting a weapon before decoys and MIRV.
The last is continental ground based ABM’s.
Trump has advanced our priorities in all three. It is irrelevant what weapons NK has if the odds of successfully using them are very low.
“Maybe you’re content is the ideological purity of libertarianism, but most of the rest of understand there is a world to run and runs on pragmatic solutions, not theories.”
Because you say so ? I have noted lots of evidence you can easily find.
Bigger govenrment underperforms smaller resulting in less improved standard of living – that is pragmatic – i.e. it is based on the actual working of the world,
“The Great Recession was world wide – you get that right? Yes, recovery was slow – ALL OVER THE F…..G WORLD AND THE US DID THE BEST AT COMING OUT OF IT, ALONG WITH GERMANY.”
Yes, when the US sneezes the world gets a cold.
“The Great Recession was world wide – you get that right? Yes, recovery was slow – ALL OVER THE F…..G WORLD AND THE US DID THE BEST AT COMING OUT OF IT, ALONG WITH GERMANY. ”
There are plenty of example of nations all over the world responding to the same problems in the same way and getting the same results.
“Clearly you are using the wrong ruler and probably got it from the same “austerity, austerity” ”
We do not have an actual free market. If government was out of the market including money, we would have the best outcome. You may call that what you want.
Regardless we have myriads of examples – including now the great recession and we have a pretty good Idea what works.
I used 1921 as an example – because it is fairly clean. The Fed was in existance, the response was to cut government spending and taxes and to leave the market to sort things out. The recession itself was more severe than the great recession, and came about for similar reasons – market malinvestment, and the recession lasted 18 months.
We also have the data from the great depression and the great recession – which both had similar causes and similar government responses, and both lasted a very long time – throughout the world. BTW the US entered the great depression first and existed it last and experienced it most severely. Most of the rest of the world did NOT follow the US government intervention approach. That the US used in the great depression and most of the world did in the great recession.
“Republicans who don’t give a f..k for austerity anymore. They were stupid and dishonest.”
Not a republican.
JT has just come late to the realization that the Obama administration actually did what no other US administration every did, and investigated their political opponents without basis, and then mined the next administration.
Nearly every US president has been famous for cooperating with his successor – even when that successor was of the other party.
How often do the conspiracy theorists turn out right ?
You do not seem to understand – the foundations of the entire attack on Trump for the past 4 years is ASH. And Turley is slowly grasping it.
Myriads of people republicans and democrats – who actually supported Mueller, are now attacking the Mueller investigation.
Because it is increasingly clear to people with a brain that there was NEVER a moment in which the investigation of the Trump campaign was proper.
Not in July, not october, not january, and at no moment after.
ALL of the lynchpins have been shattered.
The claim that the Russians hacked the DNC is devasted by Crowdstrikes congressional testimony – they simply do not know who hacked the DNC and worse there is no evidence that the emails were made public by hacking.
The claim that the Russians favored Trump which NEVER made sensem, has gone down the tubes.
We now know the FBI suspected Steele as an unwitting Russian asset in 2015.
We know that Carter Page was actually a US asset.
We know that Flynn was a US Asset.
We know that Konstantin Kilimnik was a US asset.
We know the FBI had no basis to interview Flynn.
or pretty much anyone else.
Turley is not blind. These revalations effect him.
As they do anyone capable of seeing reality over partisanship.
John, stick to distorting facts and quit the lies. The CI investigation into the Trump campaign was begun by the FBI and according to IG Horowitz on a sound non-political basis. The Obama administration’s interest in Flynn communications with the Russian ambassador followed their taking direct action against Russia which he sought to sabotage.
Russia hacked the DNC emails. Quit reading right wing BS.
As recently as one month ago the GOP led Senate Select Committee on Intelligence restated it’s finding that the Russians interfered in the election in an effort to elect Trump, a position also supported by our combined intelligence agencies and it’s past Trump appointed ex-Senator and life time GOP member Dan Coates.
No Turley is not blind, He knows exactly what he’s doing. You, probably not.
“John, stick to distorting facts and quit the lies. The CI investigation into the Trump campaign was begun by the FBI and according to IG Horowitz on a sound non-political basis. ”
Reading is not your forte.
The standard for an investigation is reasonable suspicion.
Horowitz concluded that the Downer allegation met that bar barely.
But that very shortly after the investigation started that allegation had failed.
That the Steele Dossier subsequently created the reasonable suspicion to continue and that by mid January 2017 the Steel dossier credibility had been sufficiently damaged that reasonable suspicion no longer existed.
Put simply Horowitz found that XFH met the reasonable suspicion standard by the slenderest of reeds for about 6 months.
Horrowitz DID NOT address political bias. He addressed this in his testimony.
Where he made it clear that the standard for his report required taking people at their word. Unless they admitted political bias he was not allowed to find Bias.
He made it clear to the Senate that what he found was extremely bad conduct, and that political bias was a reasonable conclusion as to the cause.
“The Obama administration’s interest in Flynn communications with the Russian ambassador followed their taking direct action against Russia which he sought to sabotage.”
Wow!
First you have a timeline problem.
You can not use the conclusion that Flynn was trying to sabotage Obama as a basis for the spying that you claim found that.
But your next problem is you have not read the transcripts.
Flynn never tried to “sabotage” Obama’s actions against Russia.
He tried hard and successfully to persuade Russia to NOT over react.
That was crystal clear. Every word from Flynn should have been said by Susan Rice.
“Russia hacked the DNC emails. Quit reading right wing BS.”
I am reading CrowdStrikes testimony to Congress.
Crowdstrike is the ONLY evidence with respect to the DNC hacking.
“As recently as one month ago the GOP led Senate Select Committee on Intelligence restated it’s finding that the Russians interfered in the election in an effort to elect Trump, a position also supported by our combined intelligence agencies and it’s past Trump appointed ex-Senator and life time GOP member Dan Coates.”
Your representations thus far have been so full of spin and inaccuracy – why I am to beleive that you accurately reported this.
Regardless, I am capable of drawing my own conclusions from the evidence.
And we now have all the evidence the ICA had, and nearly all the evidence the House and Senate had.
I have no axe to grind with Coates. That said the recent declassifications by Grinnell and Radcliff raise the question why didnt Coates declassify these documents years ago ?
Nothing that has recently been made public exposes sources and methods.
Nothing jephardizes National Security. Much of it there is no basis that it ever should have been classified
The House and Senate demanded these documents.
Trump ORDERED Wray and Coates to provide them and make them public.
Rosenstein and Coates and others fought that tooth and nail for years.
So I must ask what was Coates basis for not releasing these ?
What was Rosensteins ?
Why did it take us 3 years to learn that even crowdstrike had no actual evidence that the DNC was hacked by Russia and that regardless of who hacked the DNC that it was unlikely that the Emails came from those two small hacks.
Why did it take three years to find out that each of 56 witnesses that publicly claimed to have seen evidence of “collusion” – under oath said they knew of ni such evidence ?
Why did it take 3 years to find out that the actual analysts at CIA, NSA, DNI, FBI found it was more likely that Putin favored Clinton ?
Why did it take 3 years to find out that the state department was warning everyone the Steele Dossier was politically sourced garbage ?
Why did it take 3 years to find out that the FBI had concluded in 2015 that Steele was an unwitting Russian Asset ?
I can go on and on and on.
Regardless, we have been lied to, and information has deliberately been withheld from us that directly contradicts all those conclusions that you claim are so important.
I would note that after watching “the experts” in action over C19 – does that give you confidence that those in CIA, NSA, FBI, … or that the house and senate know what they are doing ?
There are hopefully going to be reasonable changes that result from this.
And certainly some – maybe even a majority of democrats seek reasonable changes.
But those shouting “defund the police” – are not looking to repeat what occured in Camden – under a Republican governor.
Regardless, there are very few of us that expect that those demanding “defund the police” or more other extreme positions will get their way – today.
But it is clear that the democratic party owes to much to those groups.
It is also clear that it does not matter whether the far left prevails incrementally or all at once – the democratic party is dragging the country left inexorably.
A decade ago we were told that we were misrepresenting. lying when we said there were socialist elements in the democratic party we were accused of using hyperbolee, Today large numbers of democrats openly and proudly accept the label socialist.
John, you wrote”
“But it is clear that the democratic party owes to much to those groups.”
A purposeful lie or ignorant observation.
I’ll guarantee you that Biden and others at the top are long past ready for this to end, though it is true Trump could shoot himself in the foot again like at Lafayette Park. The news and trends before Floyd were all working for the Democrats and as this carries on it can easily sour and become “law and order” time like 1968. Biden remembers that. I remember that. You remember that.
Smarten up.
>“But it is clear that the democratic party owes to much to those groups.”
>A purposeful lie or ignorant observation.
How so ? If you are going to make a moral accusation – you need to support it.
Not merely assert it.
If you claim someone is lying and fail to demonstrate that, you pay with your integrity.
“I’ll guarantee you that Biden and others at the top are long past ready for this to end,”
Possibly, still not an argument.
Regardless, all of this could have been ended trivially from day one.
Specify the venue for protests – City hall as an example.
And use the police and NG to move protestors to those areas.
That would have radically reduced looting, arson, violence.
The lockdown protesters did exactly that on their own.
This is not hard. If you are gathering in front of stores and homes – you are not protesting, you are not petitioning government.
“though it is true Trump could shoot himself in the foot again like at Lafayette Park.”
So after 3 days of burning and looting – it is your contention that it is NOT ok to move “protestors” out of what was a staging area for violence, when a few blocks away they have the national mall where public protests have traditionally been held ?
Trump did precisely what I advised Mayor’s above, which should have been obvious from day one.
Real protests against government do not occur infront of Nieman Marcus, or
A church you burned.
“The news and trends before Floyd were all working for the Democrats and as this carries on it can easily sour and become “law and order” time like 1968. Biden remembers that. I remember that. You remember that.”
I have no clue what you wrote means.
I also do not care much about the politics part.
I expect Trump, Biden, MSM, Mayors to do their jobs first and foremost, politics is second.
If burning and looting is the way you wish to win elections – then I am with Trump.
When the looting starts the shooting starts.
If you can not win an election without violence, then any victory is illegitimate.
As to politics – I expect that you will not lie.
The left and the media has somehow persuaded people – for the moment.
That Trump is responsible for Floyd’s death and the resulting violence.
That makes zero sense.
Are you saying that your ideology can only prevail if you lie and people beleive you ?
I am mostly not concerned about the politics.
But my quess is that the polls right now are either wrong or they are reading the seen rather than the unseen, the first order effects, rather than the follow on.
This is why I would advise Trump to do nothing with CHAZ.
Let them fail publicly on their own.
Let Seattle and other cities clean up its own mess.
Regardless, whatever short term benefits that the left might have gotten from this, I expect the long term results to be significantly negative.
But we find that out in November.
“This is why I would advise Trump to do nothing with CHAZ.
Let them fail publicly on their own.
Let Seattle and other cities clean up its own mess.”
On a one by one basis I agree with you. IMO Trump is looking at CHAZ in a moral manne and as insurrection. He feels it is his job to protect the innocent people but that is to be done when the local and state authorities can’t manage the affairs. In the case of CHAZ things are not clear yet. People can call themselves what they wish (independent nation) but that doesn’t mean very much.
Personally, at this moment, while I await clarity I would leave CHAZ up to Seattle and the State.
CHAZ is an insurection. Trump is as entitled to deal with it as GW was the whiskey rebellion,
Trump was also entitled to call in active military in response to the rioting – as Eisenhower did in little rock, and as Clinton did in the Rodney King Riots.
But what he CAN do and what he Should do, is not the same
There are innocent people being harmed. There are ways to address that short of sending in troops.
I do think that there are other things Trump can do.
Cut of various federal aide to Seattle on the basis of failure to deal with open rebellion.
I think he needs to “do” something, but he needs to falls short of using force.
And he needs to leave the responsibility on local leaders.
Here’s a reasonable change: Africans stop committing crime, end their dependence on generational welfare, forced busing, affirmative action privilege, etc., become fully self-reliant, and assimilate (impossible) or self-repatriate, for their own benefit.
This could become interedting. Some truck drivers are saying they will not drive into cities where the police have been defunded or where laws are not being enforced.
Can’t blame them. A truck is like home delivery of another Target store to loot.
“Hey! Listen up! Any youse guys want to be Reginald Denny today?”
“There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal justice system
is racist. Here’s the proof.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/
@11:39
by Radley Balko
Also:
https://www.cato.org/blog/someone-disputes-racism-criminal-justice-system-show-them
So a cato link back tot he same article in WaPo is usefull how ?
The data that Cato says Balko is offereing is the same that everyone is using.
NO ONE desputes that blacks are arrested twice as much as whites.
Men are also arrested 9 times as much as women.
They also commit 9 times as much crime.
Blacks also report blacks for committing crimes at twice the rates whites do.
Does that make blacks racist against blacks.
For a statistic to have meaning, it must either refute something that is generally accepted – and usually well supported, or it must diverge from related trends.
The actual crime rate varies by race. This is established not merely in the US but accross the world. You can take almost any country in the world, and establish its crime rate from its racial demographics.
Asians are half as prone to crime as whites, blacks twice whites, Hispanics in between.
The rate for blacks declines over time – as does the rates for every other racial group.
There is another factor that is less well analized and that is class.
Poor whites have about the same crime rate as poor blacks.
If you which to prove a systemic bias, you have to find some difference that is not consistent with either the crime rate by race or the crime rate by class.
There are few examples of that.
There is a weak signal of racism in sentencing.
There is not in arrests,
There is little or no indication of racism in most aspects of policing.
To the extent there is indications that black police officers treat blacks differently – they are more harsh.
A large portion of the supposed white on black police violence is hispanic on black.
We have lots of problems in our criminal justice system
Systemic racism is not one of those – and the data does not support that claim.
I like Radley, Frankly I think he is great. His work on the militarization of police is fantasitc. He also does an excelent job there of providing data.
But that data is much easier to deal with. It is overwhelming, and there are no factors that need regressed out.
“So a cato link back tot he same article in WaPo is usefull how ?” — John Say asks
“Thin Blue Lies: How Pretextual Stops Undermine Police Legitimacy”
Jonathan Blanks
https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/blanks-cwrlr-v66n4.pdf
“The Kansas researchers also found that pretextual investigatory
stops—such as those condoned by Whren—contributed heavily to police mistrust and ill-will by African Americans.13 ”
Take time to breathe, buddy.
Absolutely pretextual stops are a serious problem.
Absilutely they undermine peoples trust in police.
But the premise you are supposed to prove is systemic racism.
Not bad or counter effective policing.
There are about 2 instances a year in the entire country that might require a SWAT team. But just about every police department in the country has a SWAT team.
And they are used every day. And they undermine the trust of the community.
I can list myriads of things about policing that are bad ideas and erode peoples trust.
But they are not examples of systemic racism.
As I beleive you noted with SchoolCraft, there is lots of incentivized policing,
Write tickets, drive up arrests or this statistic or that.
Pretextual stops serve a variety of goals – even a few legitimate ones.
Though on net they are bad.
But playing games to drive up statistics or to create oportunities for legitimate serious arrests, is not systemic racism.
Words matter. Proving a tangent does not prove your point
John say, how do recognize systematic racism when you aren’t the target of it? Those who experience it daily see it clearly. So what would it take for you to recognize it? If you’re never in the position to experience it how do you determine systematic racism?
The murder of George Floyd exposed it Yet you cannot recognize it.
He sees what he wants to see.
“John say, how do recognize systematic racism when you aren’t the target of it?”
Shumaker-Levy struck Jupiter – not earth, and yet we recognized it.
You are completely backwards. If you are only able to see something because your are the victim – then it is emotion not fact.
“Those who experience it daily see it clearly. So what would it take for you to recognize it? ”
Facts.
“If you’re never in the position to experience it how do you determine systematic racism?”
Facts
“The murder of George Floyd exposed it Yet you cannot recognize it.”
It is not even evident that Floyd’s murder exposed racism.
As noted by the Timpa incident – Chauvin’s conduct is consistent with bad cops accross the country and happens to whites as well as blacks.
Further there apears to be evidence that Chauvin’s actions regarding Floyd may have had personal animus – i.e. not racism driving them.
John, on your 1st question I have supported it numerous times on this blog in the last day.
I didn’t read the rest.
“John, on your 1st question I have supported it numerous times on this blog in the last day.
I didn’t read the rest.”
Unclear what you mean. Try less pronouns
“I didn’t read the rest.”
Anon, It doesn’t reflect the uneducated vision you possess so you are stuck.
“Professors find frequent traffic stops a form of institutional racism”
By Brian Whepley
“A SURPRISING REVELATION LED PROFESSORS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS TO IDENTIFY A WIDELY ACCEPTED POLICE PRACTICE – THE INVESTIGATIVE STOP – AS A THREAT TO THE RIGHTS OF RACIAL MINORITIES. THIS IS THE STORY OF THEIR PROVOCATIVE INTERPRETATION AND HOW IT BECAME A BOOK THAT’S PROMPTING DIALOGUE IN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY. ”
https://klcjournal.com/professors-find-frequent-traffic-stops-a-form-of-institutional-racism/
And like all crybaby leftist liberals you don’t realize that more white people are killed by the police every year than blacks. But like all crybaby leftist libs, you have no problem with all of the black on black murders that occur in DemocRAT run cities.
Blah, blah, blah.
Sir, your crybaby statement alone tells what you are. A ill informed Trump enabler. If you what BUT..BUT…BUT… How about how the republican party keeps not just people of color poor it’s also mainly white red states, they have no healthcare or rural health centers. They keep people poor by not raising the minimum wage, drinking water is rare, They tell it’s citizens tax breaks have to go to the rich, while poor people in red states can’t even afford their meds. SS disability is very high in red states. This could go on and on, so while you think it’s the Libs, take a look at whats happening in red states too. You might not like it, but we all are in the same boat.
I doubt your ‘proof’ but I no longer care.
paywalled
This is the type of article that impresses those deficient in math and statistics. According to you the NFL must be prejudiced against White people. Try thinking.
Whoops.
Lindsey Graham on Trump:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1271504127735062534
Lindsey Graham on Trump:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1271504127735062534
Lindsay Graham pays attention. You don’t. Lindsay Graham has turned into mostly a supporter of Trump. Shows how backward you are and how you don’t keep up.
The amazing thing about you is that you can be wrong so many times and not be embarrassed.
“People who are concerned about their personal safety after defunding police are simply speaking “from a place of privilege.”
Keep it up.
Soon even woke liberals will want George Zimmerman for a neighbor.