Contested Election: The 2020 Election Has Proven A Target Rich Environment For Challenges

Below is my earlier column in the Hill on the issues that we are following in the various states.  Many of these issues are now being litigated on the deadlines and conditions for voting. We are still seeing challenges over the voting and now over the counting.  We will be moving to the next phase from counting to keeping votes. Even if a state is declared for a candidate, there will be recount and challenges.  Recounts historically have no resulted in substantial changes with the exception of the Florida recount in 2000 where there were serious problems in the design of ballots and intent of voters.  There remain however categorical challenges like the one kicked back by the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania.

Here is the column:

The election is here and the record level of early voting is matched only by the record level of conspiracy theories. Many harbor doubts over whether their votes will count, but such doubts have lingered in history. Like Mark Twain said, “If voting made a difference, they would not let us do it.”

Both sides are fueling such insecurities. President Trump has condemned mail voting as an effort to steal the election, so Democrats accuse him of sparking a coup attempt if he loses. Democrats like House Majority Whip James Clyburn have said that the only way Joe Biden can lose the election is “for voter suppression to be successful.” Republicans accuse Clyburn of fueling riots if Trump is not declared the loser on election night.

It is not surprising that both sides have raised tens of millions of dollars and enlisted hundreds of lawyers for the election challenges based on a “saturation bombing” legal strategy. The litigation started weeks before the election, and thousands of ballots are being set aside in anticipation for court reviews. Every election for president I have covered as a legal analyst has raised challenges, including the ultimate contested 2000 election that ended with the ruling in George Bush versus Al Gore.

It is inevitable with tens of millions of voters across thousands of polls that isolated or systemic problems arise. But this election is different by a high order of magnitude. Mail voting is always a magnet for challenges. In past elections, some mail ballots were not even counted since they would not affect the outcome. Now officials have to process tens of millions of mail ballots in areas that have not dealt with such numbers before. Watch the developments in three basic categories as the election unfolds.

Voting Deadlines

The first category of challenges is deadlines. This will constitute the most extensive form of challenges. The “clocking” of ballots is an effective basis for challenges as the deadlines are set by state law. The results have been mixed thus far. One federal court agreed with the challenge by Minnesota Republicans in rejecting an extended deadline to receive absentee ballots after today. A split panel of the Eighth Circuit ordered that any mail ballots received at a set time tonight must be set aside for potential nullification. There is now litigation on the state and federal level on the issue.

The Supreme Court has issued its own orders. It ended the Wisconsin plan to count mail ballots received up to six days after the election. The bench broke along ideological lines as Chief Justice John Roberts held that such orders constitute “federal intrusion” on state law. However, the bench split evenly on the Pennsylvania extension of the deadline for absentee voting, which left the court orders standing. Roberts voted for that extension as part of such “authority of state courts to apply their own constitutions to election regulations.” Conversely, the Supreme Court voted to support an extension for the deadline of absentee ballots in North Carolina.

Justice Samuel Alito, Justice Clarence Thomas, and Justice Neil Gorsuch have indicated that the Pennsylvania challenges raise not just state but federal issues. It is not clear how Justice Amy Coney Barrett, who sat on the Supreme Court for the first time this week, will decide on the issues. Even if she votes with her colleagues, Roberts is the swing vote.

Voting Conditions

Another category of challenges is conditions. This rises significantly in the election and includes allegations of voter suppression due to long lines or malfunctioned equipment. This year has seen novel challenges and mixed results in this category. Given such high turnout, the time it takes to vote could be an issue. It was the case in the 2012 election, when some voters complained of standing in line for hours. Such delays will likely result in filings for courts to monitor and solve them with extended hours.

The Texas high court denied the Republican petition to invalidate almost 127,000 drive through votes in Harris County. A unanimous Pennsylvania high court ruled that mail ballots must not be rejected due to perceived mismatches between signatures. The Supreme Court upheld an Alabama challenge to curbside voting, supporting the view that it is not permitted under state law. The Supreme Court has also ruled to enforce the South Carolina mandate that absentee ballots be signed by a witness.

There have not been great challenges over the conditions at polling places. Instead, the litigation has focused on the conditions for the counting of balloting, including the denial or separation of monitors from counting and processing areas.

Voting Certification

The most worrisome category of challenges is certification. This comes when the votes must be certified by the states for eventual submission to Congress. Many states do not start counting votes until after polls close. That could leave the outcome hanging by both tabulation and litigation, which could be serious in Pennsylvania. Michigan is also of concern due to its 1,600 districts with different systems. Wisconsin and Nevada will process record numbers of mail ballots with untested systems. Nevada has rejected demands for added standards to count ballots that could spark challenges over potential voter fraud. Such challenges can force recounts, the process that slowed states like Florida in 2000.

The problem is that the states must send certified results to Congress in five weeks. There is a chance that challenges could delay submissions, or that states could send two sets of electors as a result of disputed results. Congress would have to select between those conflicting sets or perhaps disregard submissions. There is also a chance that neither candidate will secure 270 electoral votes, which leads to a dangerous battle.

Much of the litigation will not be to ensure a clear majority but to reduce the margin for either party. If a party can toss out enough ballots or force enough of its own votes to be counted, it is possible to cut challenges in arguing that, even if successful, they will not alter the outcome. Trump declared that “as soon as that election is over, we are going in with our lawyers.” But that is not necessary since they are already there.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can find his updates online @JonathanTurley.

233 thoughts on “Contested Election: The 2020 Election Has Proven A Target Rich Environment For Challenges”

  1. Donald Trump won the largest non-white vote share for a Republican presidential candidate in 60 years.

    Joe Biden underperformed Hillary Clinton in every major metro area around the country, save for Milwaukee, Detroit, Atlanta and Philadelphia.

    It ain’t because they had a GOTV.

  2. In Michigan, ballot counters take unreadable ballots, and transcribe them to blank ballots, while a poll challenger from the Democrat, and the Republican parties, observe. They sign off each ballot transcribed. Instead, in violation of state law, GOP poll challengers were made to leave the room, and the windows blocked with cardboard. Ballot counters cheered, on camera, each time a GOP poll challenger was made to leave. One Republican poll challenger, Connarn, said that a counter told her that they were changing the dates on ballots received too late in order to count them. The counter allegedly handed her a note confirming it. As soon as that happened, the Republican was told to leave.

    Detroit has a long history of voter fraud. In 2005, “legally incapacitated nursing home residents were being coaxed to vote and Detroit’s voting rolls were inflated with more than 300,000 names of people who had died or moved out of the city.” A post-election audit found that nearly 30 percent of precincts showed discrepancies in vote totals.” One voter was even found on the rolls has having been born in 1823. I wonder if he voted this year.

    “In the 2016 presidential election, voting machines in more than a third of all voting precincts in Detroit registered more votes than the number of voters tallied by poll workers. The irregularities meant that more than half the city would be ineligible for a statewide presidential recount that was eventually called off by the Michigan Supreme Court.”

    1. Thanks for the helpful link, Karen.

      The most important balancing act for the Trump team now – perhaps most especially for Secretary of State Pompeo – is the confinement of criticism where it’s due, on the one hand, with praise of the US election system overall, on the other:

      “Rivals and enemies of the United States have come together to revel in the messiest US election in a generation, mocking the delay in vote processing and Donald Trump’s claims of electoral fraud in barely veiled criticisms of Washington’s political activism abroad.”

      Adversaries who are quick to tear America apart fail to grasp just how resilient, high-functioning and democratic the American political system really is. Americans are not merely scrutinizing genuinely contestable ballots and arguing over razor thin margins in more than a handful of states. We are simultaneously processing the titanic moods of the world’s two largest economies, its two largest democracies and its two largest nuclear powers.

      As Van Jones put it, “The fact that it’s this close hurts.”

      Yes, we have a lot of healing to do. We’re the United States of America. We were scarred at birth.

      But we’re not so much a mess as we are a jigsaw puzzle. And the goal of all our piece-fitting is excellence.

      The excellence of Union.

  3. Someone’s got some splainin’ to do. I’m all for federalism, but is there anything of the magnitude of our electoral process that effects the entire nation, not regulated at the federal level?

    An apparent issue with the election infrastructure in one Michigan county resulted in a Republican candidate having a tally of only two votes Wednesday.

    Now, it’s been revealed that the program at fault could be in use in dozens of other counties across the state.

    The discrepancy was discovered Wednesday morning in Antrim County, according to Michigan’s Interlochen Public Radio.

    Triston Cole, a Republican state legislator, cited the fact that Representative Jack Bergman received only two votes, according to county tabulations.

    “I can guarantee that there were 6 [Bergman votes] in my immediate family alone,” Cole told IPR.

    Election results posted to the county website have been taken down since the discrepancy was found.

    “Early this morning, the Antrim County Clerk, Sheryl Guy, became aware of apparently skewed results in the Unofficial Election Result tabulations,” county officials said on their Facebook page.

    “Since then, the Clerk’s Office has been reviewing the results and the multiple redundancies to search out any possible discrepancies. Staff is currently working with township officials and with Election Source, the company that provides the voting software programs and hardware.”

    According to WPBN-TV, Guy said the vote totals on printed tabulator tapes and totals counted by the election software did not match. The printed tabulated tapes from each precinct will be counted manually as a result.

    According to KXXV-TV anchor Joe Gumm, the Antrim County Clerk’s Office is now in the process of reviewing over 16,000 ballots cast in the county.

    Even worse for the integrity of elections in Michigan, the program used to conduct voting in Antrim County is reportedly being used in 33 other counties across the state.

    1. Olly, you have posted no source here. We don’t know anything about KXXV TV. We don’t know if this story even comes from KXXX TV. You’ve got nothing here!

      1. Anonymous, here ya go:

        While it’s super that Michigan is recounting ballots in those areas manually, see my earlier post that GOP poll challengers were forced to leave the ballot counting room, while Democrat poll challengers were allowed to stay. An attorney poll challenger filed a complaint that a poll worker handed her a note saying that they were changing the dates on ballots received too late in order to include them.

        This is really dirty politics.

        “There is no way that we flipped from 62 percent Trump in 2016 to upside-down this time around,” he said.

        Cole specifically cited the results at his polling place: Chestonia Township. Antrim County’s election results show Representative Jack Bergman (R-Watersmeet) only got 2 votes.

        “I can guarantee that there were 6 [Bergman votes] in my immediate family alone,” he said.

        Update: The Antrim County Clerk said in a press release they are now counting their ballots manually and will release new results tomorrow.”

      2. Anon: Olly, “We don’t know if this story even comes from KXXX TV. You’ve got nothing here!”

        That you do not want to make the effort to see the evidence, is not the same thing as there is no evidence.

  4. Every single problem that Turley notes was both foreseable and avoidable.

    The problems with mail-in voting are well known.

    Frankly SCOTUS should have stick down ALL STATES ad hoc mailin systems created by executive fiat in response to covid.

    Though constitutionally proper that is probably not a political tenable position at the moment.

    Amoung the many many problems that mailin voting introduces is that it is the only form of voting in the US where it is possible to buy votes.

    We have gone to a great deal of trouble with in person and absentee voting to make it impossible to know how a person voted and therefore be able to pay them for their vote. In the 2020 election $14B was spent by the campaigns. 160M votes were cast.
    That is about $100/vote. If we only focus on swing state voters the cost per ballot is about $1000.

    Incentivizing the purchase of votes is just about the stupidest thing we can do.
    If it did not happen to a significant level in 2020 – it will soon enough if we continue this.

    They do not conform to even roberts nonsensical position that federal elections are governed by states.

    Roberts position that voting in a federal election is exclusively a state issue is ludicrously unsound.

    The Constitution addresses federal elections in several places – in ALL OF THEM it gives the ultimate authority on federal elections to congress. One of the real disasters of 2000 was the failure of congress to actually normalize voting standards accross the country.

    It is a serious failure of due process for the citizens of one state to use election rules radically different than those in another state and ultimately alter the outcome of national elections.

    Regardless, in most of the constitution responsibility for federal elections in a given state is given to the state legislature – NOT the governor, not the state courts.

    The federalist concept of states as laboratories for government is wise for many aspects of government. It is a serious problem when the various states have disparate rules regarding FEDERAL elections. Particularly that of president. It is arguable that a states choices regarding representatives and senators are its own. But the president is NOT the president is not elected to represent a state.

    Finally – getting voting right is NOT all that hard.

    There MUST be a hard deadline to accepting votes.
    Post marks are NOT acceptable as proof of anything – they are too easily circumvented (or forged).

    The appropriate hard deadline is that all ballots must be received by the close of polls on election day – PERIOD.

    Frankly we should eliminate mailing voting entirely – it can not be secured.

    Next votes must be counted FAST after the polls close.
    In the past 90% of precincts accross the country have never had problems counting over 100M votes by midnight election day.

    There is absolutely no reason that there can not and should not be a SHORT and hard deadline for counting votes.

    All delays between casting votes and completing counts introduce opportunities for fraud.

    And the incentives regarding voting are that if fraud is possible – in some places it will happen.

    JT seems way to blasey about voting fraud. The standard of trust required for elections is NOT – fraud must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It is that elections must be conducted such that voters can have the highest confidence that fraud did not occur.

    The legitimacy of government hinges on our trust in elections. We should have learned from Florida in 2000 the dangers of lack of confidence int he results of an election. Getting elections right is NOT actually hard. Limit absentee balloting. eliminate mailin voting – because it can not be secured. reduce and standardize or completely eliminate early voting, have atleast a full week between registering to vote and voting – no same day registration. Require ID to vote. Standardize on Optical scanning for all voting/counting as the VOTER is the only one who ever handles a filled in ballot. Run federal elections for a FULL 24hr period accross the entire country at the same time.
    Open the polls at 3am EST across the country and close them at 3am EST the next day accross the country. That gives every state the exact same 24hr period to vote. Then require that all votes be counted by 6am. ‘

    JT notes that there are sometimes problems with long lines or with counting.

    These are failures of local governments and they should not be rewarded.
    It is the responsibility of the state and federal government to assure that every single congressional district in the US has the exact same budget and resources to handle voting. It would be plausible if rural areas where voters often had to travel significantly to get to a poll had problems but inevitably it is urban areas where distances are short, populations are dense and all the conditions are optimal for fast effocient voting that are the places we see long delays.

    Again HARD deadlines – and let local voters punish their own local governments if they fail to provide the resources needed to vote in sufficient time.

    If you incentivize bad conduct you will get more of it. So long as you decide that damn the rules we are going to count every vote,
    Then you have no rules at all, and you will have bad conduct, and some of that will be fraud, and all of it will be suspect.

    Regardless, I am not interested in crocodile tears over elections. Set the rules ahead and do what is necescary to comply.
    Do not come whining afterwards.

  5. No explanation yet as to how all the down-ballot candidates have been counted and winners declared when they were on the same supposedly still sealed and uncounted ballots as Trump and Biden.

    1. There are several other races that haven’t been called.

      Even if two races both involve 5M votes cast in a single state, it can be possible for one race to be called while another isn’t settled. For example, if there are 50K votes left to tally, and one race is 4M to 950K, you can call it, because there’s no way for the second candidate to catch up. But if the split is 2.47M to 2.48M, then you can’t call it.

      If you don’t understand why they can call some races but not others, work on your math.

  6. Dead giveaway of vote stuffing:

    “Why Does Biden Have So Many More Votes Than Democrat Senators In Swing States?”

    “In most elections, the majority of votes are cast “down the ticket” – meaning, a voter supports both party’s presidential nominee and state Congressional candidates. In fact, according to Pew Research, “overwhelming shares of voters who are supporting Trump and Biden say they are also supporting the same-party candidate for Senate.”

    Typically, this means that that the number of votes for a presidential candidate and that party’s Senate candidates are relatively close.

    Twitter user “US Rebel” (@USRebellion1776), however, found that the number of votes cast for Joe Biden far exceeds those cast for that state’s Senate candidates in swing states, while those cast for Trump and GOP Senators remains far closer.

    In Michigan, for example, there was a difference of just 7,131 votes between Trump and GOP candidate John James, yet the difference between Joe Biden and Democratic candidate Gary Peters was a staggering 69,093.

    In Georgia, there was an 818 vote difference between Trump and the GOP Senator, vs. a 95,000 difference between Biden and the Democratic candidate for Senator.”

    1. I spoke with someone who normally doesn’t vote. He told me that he went to vote this year, and the only race he voted in was for President. He voted for Biden, because he thinks Trump has been such an awful President. Trump his very polarizing. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people — people who normally don’t vote and didn’t want to spend time thinking about who to vote for down ballot — voted for Biden as a way to voice their desire to get Trump out of office.

      There are also Republicans and conservative independents who think Trump is awful. They split their tickets because they want Trump out of office but otherwise support Republicans.

      1. and the only race he voted in was for President.

        And you believe someone that took the time to go in and vote left the remainder of the ballot blank. LOL!

        Trump his very polarizing.

        Yes he is. Polarizing implies two distinct entities. He polarized the country on constitutional governance and in the process he effectively managed to get the Democratic party to fundamentally transform themselves into some Left Wing mobocracy. The entire party has become DINO’s. For Biden and these DINO’s to unite this country, they are either going to have to demoralize half the country to join them in their lurch toward socialism, or they will need to rediscover the republic they abandoned. Good luck convincing your anarchist faction of that.

        1. Yes, I believe him. I know him and you do not.

          How unsurprising that moderate Republicans are castigated as RINOs and now you seek to judge Democrats as DINOs if they don’t ft the box you want to put Democrats in. FO.

          1. now you seek to judge Democrats as DINOs if they don’t ft the box you want to put Democrats in.

            Seek? No, I’m way beyond seek. And it’s not seek, but discernment. Unlike you, I take the evidence readily available and use reason and logic to form an opinion. It’s irrefutable that the 21st century Democratic party is not anything resembling that of the 20th century. They might have a tent they use to lure in a constituency, but they’ve set up shop in a tent staked out over a cesspool of failed ideas. In the meantime, the GOP’s tent has gotten a lot larger and far more diverse. Situated by the way squarely over this great nation.

            You’re welcome.

    2. Intriguing circumstantial evidence, Rhodes.

      Trump tweets: “STOP THE FRAUD!”

      Turley does not specifically address voter fraud, let alone mass voter fraud, in his article. It would be a good follow-up.

      Turley does write: “The election is here and the record level of early voting is matched only by the record level of conspiracy theories….Both sides are fueling such insecurities.”

      Taking Trump’s tweet as evidence, Trump certainly is.

      Biden arguably less so. I heard him speak late this afternoon. He was brief and to the point. He sounded Presidential. But if his goal is to unify the country at this highly polarized time, is it better for him to express “no doubt” that he and Harris have won the election? Should Biden not perhaps express “little doubt,” “some doubt” or “a healthy shadow of a doubt”?

      In what is surely one of the closest multi-state electoral college races in US history, it will be hard for either Biden or Trump to ever say they won the electoral college by a commanding margin. The relative success of Republicans down ballot adds further complexity to an already complex situation.

      Also on the positive side, I would like to think the 2020 election demonstrates the US indeed has one of the most rigorous and democratic political systems in the world.

      1. Jonathan, using an Electoral College that weights votes differently depending on where someone lives is not a demonstration of a democratic political system.

          1. Jonathan, I’d rather focus on the US, not the UN General Assembly.

            Why do you think it’s legitimate for the votes of voters in some states to count more in the EC than the votes of voters in other states?

            1. Anonymous asks, “Why do you think it’s legitimate for the votes of voters in some states to count more in the EC than the votes of voters in other states?”

              But I didn’t voice an opinion on the legitimacy of the EC, beyond disdain for its history as slaveholders’ compromise (not that this disdain is necessarily greater than my respect for the brilliance of the abolitionists’ long-term view of Union).

              Anonymous asks an essential geopolitical question, but is not interested in thinking about how the whole applies to the part. Forgive me for thinking otherwise!

              In a General Assembly of States, why shouldn’t the votes of voters in Liechtenstein count more than the votes of voters in the PRC?

              Why, in the African Union, shouldn’t the votes of voters in Seychelles count more than the votes of voters in Nigeria?

              And why, in the US Presidential and Vice Presidential elections, shouldn’t the votes of voters in Rhode Island, or in Alaska, in turn count more than the votes of voters in California?

              The burden of proof against a long-accepted tradition of weighted voting between states of profoundly different geographic sizes and populations seems rather more on your side, Anonymous, than it is on mine, in both a US and UN context.

              Would you abolish the Senate, or do you agree that it’s fair to the representation of Statehood, in some way that the House of Representatives is not? Why should something like a balance between the fairness of Senate and the fairness of the House of Representatives not apply to the selection of the US President and Vice President?

              1. If I misunderstood your comment that you’re “more sympathetic to the argument the US Electoral College was once a slaveholders’ compromise” than “to the argument that weighted voting systems are inherently anti-democratic”, then please clarify:
                Do you think it’s legitimate for the votes of voters in some states to count more in the EC than the votes of voters in other states, and why?

                That’s a question about the EC, not about weighted voting systems in general.

                As for your questions, I simply don’t buy your attempted analogy.

                The EC exists solely to select the President and VP. It’s nothing like the UN or AU. I can tell you what votes I’m talking about: the votes cast by voters in all states in the presidential election. When you talk about “the votes of voters in Liechtenstein” and “the votes of voters in Seychelles”, what votes are YOU talking about?

                1. Please feel free to make a straightforward case for one-person, one vote, Anonymous. Why do you think one person, one vote, should apply to the election of the US President, and not merely to the size (by population) of the electoral districts of State Senates, for example?


                  From pg. 555 of the Majority Opinion: “The right to vote freely for the candidate of one’s choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government. And the right of suffrage can be denied by a debasement or dilution of the weight of a citizen’s vote just as effectively as by wholly prohibiting the free exercise of the franchise.”

                  I will extrapolate from this argument to the United Nations: “If China is not given 1,439,323,776 divided by 38,166 times as many votes as Liechtenstein, than 1,439,323,776 less 38,166 Chinese citizens are disenfranchised, in any vote coming before a representative General Assembly.

                  The UN General Assembly votes several times annually, eg:


                  The relative weight of the votes is of considerable significance in this case as in many others.

                  1. I’m aware that the UN General Assembly votes on a variety of issues. That was one of the differences that I was referring to when I said that the EC is nothing like the UN or AU: the EC does NOT vote on a variety of issues.

                    The UN is not a country. It has no citizens. You keep trying to draw analogies between bodies that aren’t analogous, such as the UN and EC, or now the UN and a state legislature.

                    Apparently, you’re not willing to clarify what votes you were talking about when you referred to “the votes of voters in Liechtenstein” and “the votes of voters in Seychelles” and how they relate to UN or AU votes. Maybe you can’t, and you’re choosing not to say that you can’t, as it would highlight how your attempted analogy falls apart.

                    1. I’m disappointed in your responses too.

                      From what I can tell, your comparisons don’t hold just fine. But I’m willing to change my mind if you make a good case for it instead of assuming it. So please clarify: when you talked about “the votes of voters in Liechtenstein” and “the votes of voters in Seychelles”, what votes were you talking about? Because I seriously don’t know what you’re referring to. What were those people voting for, and how were those votes related to the votes in the UN?

                      I can tell you what Americans were voting for in the presidential election this week and how their votes are related to the EC vote in December. If you think the comparison holds up, then you should be able to explain too.

                    2. Anonymous:

                      1. After the citizens of the US elect a President through the EC, the President selects a Permanent Representative to the UN, who is in turn confirmed by the Senate. This Permanent Representative is responsible for overseeing all US votes in the General Assembly and on the Security Council. US votes at the UN are votes of the people, indirectly through this mechanism.

                      2. While the UN is not a country – it’s an intergovernmental organization – it really is not quite correct, in what is admittedly my minority opinion, to say that “it has no citizens.” Both the Security Council and the General Assembly are comprised of voting states, each of which in turn are made up of citizens. Although every government represents it citizens through different mechanisms at the UN, all states do purport to represent their citizens and their wellbeing. This notion is central to the sovereign equality of states, in my view. If the UN is not a decision-making body of citizens, vesting their power in states, what else is it?

                      3. I’ve already addressed the Liechtenstein/PRC example.

                      4. When Seychelles, the least populous country in the AU, votes in the PAP, it does so as one country with five votes, the same as every other country in the PAP, including Nigeria, the most populous:


                      “The membership of the Pan-African Parliament comprises five members elected by each Member State, of which at least two are women. They are elected or designated by their respective National Parliaments or any other legislative organ of the Member States. In addition to the condition on women’s representation, the membership of each Member State must reflect the diversity of political opinions in each National Parliament or other deliberative organ.”

                      The present system over-represents the voters of Seychelles, with a population of 100,000, and under-represents the voters of Nigeria, with a population of 200 million. The framers of the PAP believed a vote in Seychelles should be worth more than a vote in Nigeria in some instances.

                      The PAP wants to move toward direct election: “The ultimate aim of the Pan-African Parliament is to evolve into an institution with full legislative powers, whose members are elected by universal adult suffrage.”

                      How will the PAP do this? If voting is strictly proportional, Seychelles will end up with 1 vote in the PAP and Nigeria will have 200 (or some equivalent thereof).

                      A weighted voting system, of which the EC is a historically controversial type, suggests an alternative. Or the PAP may stay with five votes per member state.

                    3. Jonathan,

                      That doesn’t answer the question: when you talked about “the votes of voters in Liechtenstein” and “the votes of voters in Seychelles”, what votes were you talking about?

                      That’s not a question about the votes of the Ambassador from Liechtenstein (a single person) in a UN vote. It’s a question about the votes of voters in Liechtenstein (thousands of people). Same with the Seychelles, it’s not a question about the representation of the Seychelles in the AU, but about the voters in the Seychelles (thousands of people). What votes of voters were you talking about?

                      I don’t agree that the UN has citizens. Each member state has citizens, but the citizens of a member state aren’t citizens of the UN. I don’t agree that the US votes at the UN are votes of the people. Those votes are determined by the President with advice from the UN Ambassador, and US voters have no vote at that point. I don’t buy your argument about indirect votes that pass through multiple layers. Voting isn’t transitive that way (are you familiar with the concept of transitivity from math?).

                    4. I figured you would reply along those lines, Anonymous. Entirely predictable.

                      Look back at your original objection:

                      “Jonathan, using an Electoral College that weights votes differently depending on where someone lives is not a demonstration of a democratic political system.”

                      Well, why not, in your view? Because the EC specifically is anti-democratic, or because there is something inherently anti-democratic about weighted voting systems?

                      I’ve given you plenty of openings to talk about why you feel the EC specifically is anti-democratic. Not that you need my openings to opine.

                      I pressed you harder to prove why you feel weighted voting systems are inherently anti-democratic. Is the UN voting system anti-democratic? If so, why? Is the AU PAP voting system anti-democratic? If so, why? Don’t like those examples? Disagree with my conception of sovereignty? Fine. Provide another weighted voting example and show why its anti-democratic!

                      It’s your argument to prove.

                    5. Yes, Jonathan, it’s very predictable that if someone is unwilling to answer my question, I’ll note that. It’s also predictable that when that happens, I will stop responding, because it needs to be a two-way street. Have a good evening.

                      To be clear, I never said that weighted voting systems are inherently anti-democratic. I only said that the EC is not democratic.

  7. Trump Efforts Continue To Spread Disinformation

    Facebook removed a group page filled with false claims and conspiracy theories about voter fraud that had gained more than 360,000 members since it was created on Wednesday.

    “The group was organized around the delegitimization of the election process, and we saw worrying calls for violence from some members of the group,” said Andy Stone, a spokesman for the social network. He said the decision was made “in line with the exceptional measures that we are taking during this period of heightened tension” because the group “was creating real-world events.”

    The social network’s crackdown comes amid a push by President Trump and his allies to falsely accuse Democrats of trying to steal the election.

    The group, Stop the Steal, said on its now-removed page it was created by Women for America First, a pro-Trump organization founded by a former Tea Party activist. Before Facebook took action, membership was growing rapidly. It swelled by more than 25,000 just between noon and 1 p.m. ET on Thursday.

    The group’s description on Facebook echoed baseless claims that “Democrats are scheming to disenfranchise and nullify Republican votes.” It called for “boots on the ground to protect the integrity of the vote.”

    Researchers who track online disinformation have been warning that a prolonged period without a clear outcome in the presidential race creates ripe opportunities for falsehoods, rumors and misleading narratives to spread and for the possible incitement of real-world violence.

    “This is the most intense online disinformation event in U.S. history and the pace of what we have found has only accelerated since Election Day,” said Alex Stamos, director of the Stanford Internet Observatory and Facebook’s former chief security officer.

    Edited From: “Facebook Takes Down Pro-Trump Group Urging ‘Boots On The Ground’ And Pushing Vote Fraud Claims”

    Today’s NPR

    1. ‘It’s not partisan to say Dems can get away with anything at this point because they have mainstream media and big tech. It doesn’t matter what happens in these states, only matters what narrative is.

      Saying that doesn’t make you a Repub, it makes you awake. (As opposed to woke.)’ ~Dave Rubin


        This particular Gray Anonymous is a troll who monitors these threads 16 hours per day.

        1. Georgia secretary of state said this morning there were under 25K uncounted ballots remaining. Now his office claims there are over 60K.

          Yeah there’s no fraud.

          1. Georgia: Some ballots not the right size. Weren’t counted. Getting counted now. Other ballots they thought were uploaded–weren’t. Being handled now. Will accept postmarked ballots through tomorrow (nearly 9,000 may arrive).

  8. Oops!

    ennsylvania’s Democratic election leaders violated state code on Monday when they authorized county election officials to provide information about rejected mail ballots to political party operatives, according to a Republican lawsuit filed in state court and obtained by National Review.

    The lawsuit cites an email sent to county election directors at 8:38 p.m. on Monday by Jonathan Marks, Pennsylvania’s deputy elections secretary.

    In the email, Marks wrote that “county boards of elections should provide information to party and candidate representatives during the pre-canvass that identifies the voters whose ballots have been rejected” so they could be offered a provisional ballot.

  9. “Christians have been warning about the antichrist for 2000 years. When he shows up they vote for him.”

      1. Michael Aarethun — My you are confused! Who do the evangelicals vote for?

    1. Benson, “the Antichirst”? Really?

      You believe the Antichrist would negotiation 3 Middle East peace deals previously proclaimed impossible, start no new wars for the first time in many years, drive up the economy, have the lowest black unemployment ever recorded, get more people working and off of poverty, do the First Step Act to reverse the discriminatory sentencing from Joe Biden’s crime bill, in which blacks were sentenced harsher for crack than whites were for cocaine, pardon people sentenced to unfairly lengthy prison terms because of Biden’s bill, and scrupulously appoint judges and Supreme Court justices who pledge to apply the law as it is written rather than inserting any personal agenda?

      THAT’S who you view as the “Antichrist”?

      What a good Oktoberist you have become, dutifully repeating propaganda like catechism.

    2. That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.
      Psalm 68:23

      –Saloth Sar

  10. Georgia secretary of state says some counties have forgotten to click the “upload” button, so they’ve sent a reminder out.

    ‘Delay, delay, delay until, through some other route, Sleepy Joe is dragged across 270. Refusal to count or call clear Trump states like Georgia, North Carolina, PA and even Alaska is an effort hide the real state of the race. It’s fraud to help steal the race.’ @tammybruce

    1. Tammy Bruce isn’t being honest. PA isn’t a “clear Trump state”. There are still hundreds of thousands of legal ballots to count.

        1. Just as Trump exposed the Fake News, he will expose the massive voter fraud schemes being done in our elections.


      This Anonymous seeks to plant false information on Johnathan Turley’s blog. One can bet, however, that this is our usual troll; a dirty trickster lacking any scruples.

    3. Georgia secretary of state said this morning there were under 25K uncounted ballots remaining. Now his office claims there are over 60K.

  11. These are not the fraudulent votes you’re looking for.

    Nothing hinky here, move along. Human error indeed. The Keystone Cops would prove to be more competent than these “swing state” election officials.

    In a press release, the office confirmed that as of 9:15 a.m. ET, there were approximately 61,367 outstanding mail-in absentee ballots that remain uncounted.

    The updated number came as a surprise to many watching the election closely, as only hours before, Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger indicated that the number of uncounted ballots was under 25,000.

    During the press conference, when asked about the discrepancy, Georgia’s statewide voting system implementation manager, Gabriel Sterling, explained that the number could fluctuate as counties intermittently report results. He even said that some of the discrepancy could be due to the simple human error of precinct workers forgetting to hit “upload.”

    1. Olly, this is from your article: “If Biden were to win the typically Republican state, it would be a major pickup and almost assuredly point to a Biden presidency”.

      Yes, Georgia has been run by Republicans for at least 2 decades at this point. So if there are any flaws in Georgia’s method of counting, Republicans are most likely responsible. Though no proof exists, at the moment, that anything is wrong with Georgia’s count. The only real issue is ‘Trumpers aren’t getting the results they expected’.

      1. Hey doofus, Democrats may hold the title for incompetence up and down the administrative and legislative food chain, but that doesn’t mean Republicans are immune from it.

        1. Olly, now you’re turning cartwheels to rationalize the inexplicable. Which illustrates the insanity of Trump’s case at this point.

      2. No but their largest voting block of 2016 are happy as we once controlled the outcome no matter how it goes. The best that can happen for we constitutional centrist coalition members is Trump wins and continues to expose and dispose of the socialist fascists. The worst that can happen is we get the same result with Biden on top and NO connection to his voters in either house of congress. Cast adrift and on his own with no way to make anything happen.

        Representatives. 18 votes separate the two major parties but in the shadows of the left are the anti Pelosi and Constitutonali Democrats Add that to the increase from us and the Constitutional Republicans she’s toast and outta here. Can’t do anything and she deserves it for screwing over her own party especially the children. Just one of many reasons not counting the felonies in her mismanagement of the House of Representatives. Either way she goes so does Schiff and we get a new Speaker that doesn’t block DACA and doesn’t starve children.

        Senate. My oh my another squeaker with no assurance the anti Schumerians of the Democrat independents will toe the line. No way Schumer can deliver 75%

        SCOTUS… NICE! same with the Senate nominees not enough votes they can.

        A coalition of both in both houses will end up dictating to not taking PCRap from Schumer and Pelosi. If it’s even needed. Only real threat is those truckloads of extra ballots with no way to guarantee signatures. I wonder which Judge is going to throw out unverified signatures this time.

        And then the military vote from around the world? We used to call it ‘payback’ time where the socialists formerly Democrats were concerned for all those dead bodies of our comrades in arms. All those lies and broken promises. that vote runs about 80% anti socialism as it violates Our oath of office.

        All in all they can sorta kinda win but win what? They are going to need Antifa to protect themselves.

        The rule is, hard and fast when you treat your security forces despicably the soon learn to despise all socialist regressives.


    Every 4 years the Electoral College looks more and more like the archaic institution it is. All coverage of presidential elections is shaped by the Electoral College. Some of our biggest states rarely make news on Election Night. Instead coverage is dominated by our ‘usual suspects’; the same group of swing states on which every election pivots. That makes no sense!

    Wisconsin, for instance, is our 21st largest state in terms of population. Yet every 4 years Wisconsin takes on significance out of proportion to its size because it is a swing state. Only ‘because’ of the Electoral College does Wisconsin command this attention. Without the Electoral College Wisconsin would be just another average-size state in league with several others.

    Because of the Electoral College, the country is locked in suspense today regarding the outcome of this election. Yet Joe Biden’s lead of 3 million-plus Popular Votes has held fairly steady. Without the Electoral College, there would be no doubt that Biden has won this race. Therefore all the suspense and tension we feel today is simply a product of the Electoral College.

    Without the Electoral College, election coverage would revolve around counties and metro regions. That’s ‘where’ Americans really live: ‘counties and metro regions’. But the Electoral College warps our perception of where the action is. Our focus shouldn’t be riveted to the ‘usual suspects’; that small group of swing states that dominate every presidential race.

    1. Hear, hear.

      The EC offers none of the supposed restraint to mob rule often used in it’s defense and all of the randomness of rolling dice. This is due to winner take all mechanism which all but 2 states have adopted, and which is not part of the constitution. Proportional representation within state delegates would keep all voters voices important, not just the 50% +1 in about 10 states each year. The rest of us are ignored by campaigns as givens, and a large number of us are literally not heard at all.For those who think it is somehow a good idea, consider that in 2004, if Kerry had gotten 60k more votes in Ohio, he would have been president but without winning the popular vote. Does matching that up with Trump winning based on 77k votes combined in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania in 2016 somehow make ANY SENSE AT ALL? If you think so, please explain it to me. Thanks in advance

        1. Since they are for the most part of the far left and using the Collective as their personal dogs who carea.

    2. So…if one lives on a ranch in eastern Oregon, or a fishing village in eastern North Carolina, or a small town in southwest Georgia, or in a rural county in West Texas……their vote would matter not because only those who live in large urban areas and suburbs of those same large cities would have them so outnumbered so as to eliminate any hope of affecting the outcome of an election. We see that at the State level in Washington, Oregon, California, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina and Virgiina (for a few) and you wish to apply that same concept to the National Election for President……..let me guess which side of the aisle you reside.

      I suggest not only are you wrong about the Federal Electoral College system that is set forth in the Constitution…..but that we should apply the same concept to every State and even the playing field within the various States on State matters.

      Democracy is Mob Rule when the Majority ignores the Rule of Law as we see first hand during this Election.

      This election is about the Heart and Soul of this Nation of ours….not just which Man gets to live in the White House.

      1. Ralph you’re admitting that the Electoral College enables a minority at the expense of the majority; exactly what makes it a perverted institution.

      2. Don’t be silly. There are lots of rural voters around the country, so their votes matter.

        Their votes should count the same amount as everyone else’s votes, not more.

        1. Rural areas get more than their fair and proportionate share of everything: of federal subsidies and federal representation at the expense of urban areas. Why should the vote of some farmer in rural Indiana count the same as 5 or 6 residents of San Francisco? Of note, all of the conservative judges on the SCOTUS were chosen by Republicans who lost the popular vote. How is this fair?

          1. One day there will be an agrarian based revolt against the international capitalists and comprador enemies of the people lodged in their big city coastal regimes

            it will not be called “the Chinese Civil War” but “American CW2”

            the vanguard party of the working and middle classes representing the heartland people will not be called Communists but they will turn to the lessons of Mao Zedong and rewrite them anew

            the vast rural lands of America can’t be patrolled nor pacified by any army. too big!
            if the mercenary forces of the coastal plutocrats wander into the vast countryside, there they will wither and die
            just as they did when they pursued Mao’s people who had retreated on the “Long March” and finally got too far away from their big city supplies and strongholds.

            the movement of people of goodwill away from the cancerous growth of the cities has been long underway, for decades. the plan was clear back in the 80s. from then to now it grew, and in 2020 it accelerated.

            the fraud happening now is all local. these will be the enemy enclaves. the rural areas are beyond the control of “antifa” “blm” and the “national guard” that only rolls out to restore order when Democrats think they have won.

            who knows when the storm breaks. where will you be when lightening strikes?
            good luck eating computers and cell phones when it finally comes

            understand me American patriots, you may not wish to turn to the much hated Mao for the playbook, but it’s the right one in the long run. the sooner you figure it out, the better your chance of surviving in the end

            I am not the only one thinking this. one need only turn to twitter to see the Democrat fraud machine gloating over how the blue urban counties are gaining their seeming electoral victory over the vast land mass of America. This wicked gloating will one day end in tears, blood, and starvation

            -Saloth Sar

        2. Well they don’t, Anonymous. Because of the Electoral College, a vote in Wyoming has 7 times more impact than a vote in California.

        3. They don’t count more and they the exact same. It’s what happens when you defeat the notion of a Democracy nine times but retain the rights of citizens to vote at all levels in all 50 States. without fear of sociaist fascism dictating the outcome. It’s what happens we you have a Constitutioal Republic Res Public Of, By, and For the Citizens instead of a Piglosian Fascism and Schumerian socialism. But never mind. We know what our oath of office means. It means the war isn’t over and we won the second bout by exposing you to public view.

          1. They don’t count exactly the same, Michael. How much they count depends on the number of Electoral College electors assigned to the state. The smaller the state population, the more a single voter’s vote counts.

    3. Not Nice try Commie.your socialist fascist hind part is showing as usual. And it smells like Lenin and Hitler.

    4. It makes no sense to one of the sociaist manifesto trained doing as told. Never mind Constitutionaism and Freedom are not for the likes of you. And you have been exposed …So let the counter revolution continue. With you as a target of opportunity.

    5. Except that:

      1. The EC makes it harder to cheat.

      2. The usual suspects in a popular vote would just be the same group of biggest states instead.

      3. What you’re really asking for is not the elimination of the EC, but that it simply be a vote between counties rather than the states and their nearly universal rule of winner-takes-all.
      Learn more

    6. “That’s ‘where’ Americans really live: ‘counties and metro regions’.” And to you sir I say GFY !!!. You are the typical city dweller…selfish and only concerned with you and your metro life. Large swathes of people like me and my neioghbors live in rural areas an hour or more from the cesspool of metro/city filth , unlike you. Your condescending tone and your total lack of understanding the Electoral College just confirms what a load you truly are.

  13. Looks like Dems have overcome the most intense of Repub voter suppression tactics.

    1. Not so fast. The question is have Repubs overcome the most intense voter fraud tactics being deployed by Dems.

      1. If you have evidence of voter fraud, Anon. @ 1:17PM, give it to the Secretary of State and the news media. I doubt you do have evidence.

        1. If Dem James Clyburn can assert, without evidence, that the only way Trump could win is by way of ‘voter suppression’ by Repubs, we sure as hell can assert that the only way Biden could win is through stealing the election by intentionally sowing massive chaos, confusion, delays and widespread voter fraud. Prove us wrong.

          1. You’re free to demand evidence of Clyburn just like I demanded evidence from you.

            Prove yourself right.

          2. The Dems want us to believe that Joe Biden got more votes cast for him than any other candidate in history, even more than Barack Obama? And yet at the same time, we are told to believe that massive voter suppression efforts being done by Republicans to suppress Dem voters is the only possible way for Trump to win? That does not compute for most rational clear thinking people.

            1. Where do all these mysterious ‘found’ ballots keep coming from? Notice how it is always the Dems who find thousands of ballots, just enough to tip the result their way? Notice how many R’s were winning in the 2018 election, until the Dems implemented their infamous ballot harvesting scheme?

            2. Hard for Dems to explain the historic black and minority vote turnout for Trump in this election.

              So far Rs have gained 6 House seats, possibly more.

              Dems didn’t pick up a single state legislative chamber in 2020.

              Republicans, against expectations, won the New Hampshire state Senate and the Alaska state House.

              Dem House Speakers in deep blue Rhode Island & Vermont have lost their re-election bids to Republicans.

              So many more examples…

        2. What you should not doubt is we hired Trump to expose your socialist PCRap and your so called revolution. Trouble is it is illegal and our counter revolution is both required and an honor to continue. So what you gonna do when the Gods of Votes comes for you and sez. Not enough not near enough.

  14. It is a travesty that the United States swing states cannot manage to count votes in a timely manner.

    The Democrat governor of PA unilaterally changed election rules that were set by the Republican majority legislature. He allowed votes to be dropped off up to 3 days after the election, without a postmark.

    There have been vote dumps in swing states like Michigan that were 100% Biden, and erased Trump’s lead. That is statistically not possible.

    Plus there are the inevitable problems during mass mail in elections. Several people in my neighborhood scanned the barcode on their ballot for quick check in, to drop off a vote, and the name was a mismatch. It was printed correctly, but the bar code didn’t match. How many ballots will be thrown out?

    Many of us cast ballots, but the tracking website show they have not been counted.

    There is video of a ballot box in CA being emptied after the election by parties unknown.

    The honor system does not work in an election.

    But which party fights with everything it has against periodic audits of the voter rolls to remove the deceased, duplicate entries, and those not allowed to vote? Who fights against voter ID? Who successfully got voter harvesting in some states? The Democrat Party, of course.

    1. Karen, the GOP legislatures in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania all voted down a request to allow counting to begin on mail in ballots as they came in. Your party owns this exercise in 19th century vote tallys.

      By the way, no crying from the party that told us the popular vote doesn’t matter. If Trump gets more votes and loses I’ll agree you have something to cry about.

      1. Joe Friday:

        I support the Electoral College in the Constitution, regardless of whether Trump wins the popular vote or not.

    2. Karen: you need to stop watching Fox. They are poisoning your mind. What is a “timely manner” for counting votes? Envelopes have to be opened, contents flattened, the postmark or received date has to be verified, the document has to be checked for no stray marks or inconsistencies, and signatures and registration have to be checked. Then the ballot has to be scanned and tabulated. These things take time to do properly, even when it is done in person. Republicans sued to stop the State of Pennsylvania from getting a head start by doing these things before Election Day. When you have an out of control pandemic (every day sets a new record for infections and death, due to Trump’s incompetence), people don’t want to chance voting in person, so voting by mail and absentee voting are way up. Karen: we’re not 3 days past Tuesday, Election Day, and allowing ballots not even postmarked until 3 days after the election is not what the Republicans sued for–it was to prevent ballot counting before November 3. That, of course, is to provide fodder for people like you to complain that it’s taking too long. This is nothing more than Trump’s childish petulance. He threatened lawsuits and complained about mail ballots before the election even happened.

      No one can vote twice in any state. Once you log in, the window for that voter is closed, which created problems when some voters requested an absentee ballot that they didn’t receive, so they had to go in person. How would a state determine that a voter was “deceased”, anyway? Voters have to produce govt-issued photo ID, which would make it relatively impossible to impersonate a dead person. Voter ID laws are used to disenfranchise minority voters. What is “voter harvesting”?

      I don’t know where you got the lie about it being “statistically impossible” for Biden to catch up to Trump in Michigan. The other things you claim are lies put out by Trump because of his pathological need to “win”. Assuming the trends continue, he will be a sore loser, but America is really the loser here, because he makes us look bad with his pettiness.

      1. massive election fraud has happened under our noses. the proof is already being gathered

        the Democratic party billionaire mercenary coup is not over.
        whether it succeeds in the short run or not, it will fail in the end, it may take years or decades

        you can pack more and more people into the massive cities but you will never have an army big enough to control flyover
        you may one day think you outnumber us but you will never defeat us
        people like me who could give a damm about how many fake votes are cast are being born by the minute

        billionaire international capitalists are the enemies of the American people
        they have bought the Democratic party lock stock and barrel
        any Republican “leaders” who appear to be on the globalist bandwagon are enemies too
        true patriots are only friends of the working and middle classes
        billionaire class is the enemy
        their hirelings and rackets, the political machine bosses, media bosses, social media censors, bankers, bureaucrats, war pigs, university dons– enemies

        in this election, it’s time for Republicans, conservatives, and patriots to drop the illusions about this.
        there is a class dynamic we must understand. don’t worry if it sounds “marxist’ worry or not if it is TRUE
        Trump is the exception and in nearly every other instance the billionaires and their lackeys are despicable traitors and would be slavemasters of us all

        -Saloth Sar

      2. Natacha says, “Voters have to produce govt-issued photo ID, which would make it relatively impossible to impersonate a dead person. Voter ID laws are used to disenfranchise minority voters. What is “voter harvesting”?”

        Voter ID is not required in all voting locataions. Ballot harvesting is legal in California and other states, and a highly questionable practice. Don’t play dumb.

        1. “Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI), who co-sponsored a bill with Rep. Rodney Davis (R-IL) that would withhold federal funds from states that allow a third party to collect ballots from voters, said Monday the Project Veritas video investigation into the practice in Minneapolis is “further evidence” Congress should act.

          “Project Veritas offers further evidence of the need to ban ballot harvesting,” Gabbard tweeted. “It’s not a partisan issue. It’s been abused to help both R & D candidates, including in North Carolina & California. Please help by telling your congressional rep to pass our bipartisan bill HR8285.”

      3. Natacha:

        You are strangely obsessive about Fox News.

        Rachel Maddow made a fool of herself pushing the Russia collusion hoax long after other major networks quietly dropped it. MSNBC and CNN routinely get called out, even on this very blog, for erroneous or biased coverage. A prime example is when they infamously deleted “and I’m not talking about the Neo Nazis or the white supremacists, who should be condemned totally”, in order to reverse the original meaning of the “fine people” remark.

        Yet, I don’t bring up Maddow or CNN in every single one of my posts like you do about Fox. I don’t wring my hands that those inaccurate media outlets exist, or wail about it in 100% of my posts, the way you do about Fox.

        Go back and read all of your previous posts, paying particular attention to how many times you complain how unfair it is that a conservative news outlet like Fox exists. You seem to have difficulty accepting that there is a single major news outlet with a conservative viewpoint among the sea of Democrat news stations. But you need to accept reality. Other viewpoints exist. No amount of your complaints will change that fact.

        Your obsession is frankly weird.

    A. Put a sycophant in charge of running the post office.
    B. Seriously cut how much funds are given to running mail operations.
    C. Spend the months to the upcoming elections hammering the public with wild tales of election fraud due to mail in voting.
    D. Bog down the ballot count by making every legal challenge possible.

    1. I left Florida a number of years ago three address changes later found my not asked for ballots are still used to decorate the lawn out front. Where i really live had me registered and handed a voting ballot in one day flat. But I had valid ID. My sister who is still in Florida had the neighbor from before gather up the phony ballots and she burned them. No ballot showed up at her two addresses later so whe went to the US Post Office and found out in writing that a Citizen has no Constitutional right and their phony operation no Constitutional requirement to make timely deiiveries. Went to the Registration office with sufficient ID was handed a ballot, voted and went home. She works nights and this was out of her sleep time . So she said I voted against the US Post Office and it’s Union . So much for the socialist version of honesty.

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