With the start of classes at George Washington Law School, I have already had visits to my office of conservative and libertarian students asking if I thought they could speak freely in other classes without being penalized by professors. Despite teaching for decades, it is a question that I never heard from students until the last few years. It is now routine. It is the widespread fear of conservative students who have faced faculties with overwhelmingly liberal viewpoints and growing intolerance on virtually every campus as undergraduate students. Now a new study at North Carolina confirms how conservative students routinely “self-censor” and do not feel comfortable sharing their views in classes. Not surprisingly given the heavy liberal makeup of faculties, liberal students feel little such fear over retaliation.
Polls have shown that sixty-five (65) percent agreed that people on campus today are prevented from speaking freely and an earlier poll at the University of North Carolina found that conservative students are 300 times more likely to self-censor themselves due to the intolerance of opposing views on our campuses.
This study was conducted under a grant from the university by political scientists Timothy Ryan and Andrew Engelhardt of the University of North Carolina, political scientist Jennifer Larson of Vanderbilt, and business scholar Mark McNeilly. The UNC surveyed students from eight UNC institutions and found the same sharp contrast.
Only seven percent of liberal students were concerned about how their professor’s ideology would affect their grades while that rate is 6 times higher for conservatives at 42 percent. Sixty-eight percent of conservatives were worried about sharing their views with other students (as opposed to 31 percent among liberal students).
The authors also concluded that a “significant number of students have concerns about stating their sincere political views in class and have self-censored because they were concerned about the potential reactions.”
Universities have failed to push for greater ideological diversity on faculties as hiring committees continue to replicate their own viewpoints and bias. It is not just students but faculty who face this pressure to self-censure. Faculty members risk cancel campaigns that threaten publications, conference invitations, and even their employment if they voice dissenting views.
It is heartbreaking to meet with students who feel, even in law school, that they must remain silent in class to avoid the ire or retaliation from faculty. Most faculties have a small and diminishing number of conservative or libertarian members. I discuss that long trend in my recent publication in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. The article is entitled “Harm and Hegemony: The Decline of Free Speech in the United States.”
The question “Why are these adolescent lads and lassies allowed the reins’ to foster such nonsensical idea’s contrary to our founding principles”? Have the administrators of universities descended so far into a group of likeminded piddling weaklings that they are now afraid of their own shadow?
Quoting from David Miller ‘The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Political Thought’ “…societies and constitutions are ordered by slowly established and time-tested values and institutions, rather than by rational schemes or plans. The task of government is to cultivate and work with these traditions, amending them where necessary, rather than to devise utopian blueprints.”
An example of how far the educational system (physical and mental) has failed the American youth, the United States Army is struggling in recruitments. The Army estimates that just 23 percent of youth 17 to 24 are physically, morally or mentally qualified to serve without a waiver for whatever reason.
Back in the day, higher education used to be about expressing, or being exposed to new ideas, trains of thought, even things that might be controversial for the time. People would listen, they would agree or disagree. Some could or would debate. Others would watch on.
For the most part, it was civil.
Now, civility has left the campus. Where shouting down, or the use of violence is acceptable as long as it is against conservatives.
How many times has the professor pointed out the increasing hostility towards conservatives. Some guy saying he supports violence as long as it was for a just cause (i.e. hitting a conservative).
The tyranny of the left has no bounds.
To be fair, some of that responsibility falls on the home environment BEFORE kids go to university. The question, IMO, we should be asking, is why are these kids so absolutely pliable, like plasticine, that they cave to everything their professors’ say without hesitation? Do you realize they are actually looking for parents/mentors? Why do they feel that lack in their lives? Why are there no questions on their parts, but for a handful that are too frightened to speak up? No, this goes deeper, and parents blaming it on higher ed need to dig deeper themselves, especially the Conservative ones whose kids have ‘flipped’. Youthful rebellion is natural, but then there is this – what we are dealing with in 2022. What do you expect from a kid that has always heard, ‘Yes, go ahead, you are perfect.’, to everything in life? Sorry, but all six billion of us have slightly different experiences of the world we live in. Conformity, to the human condition, is quite literally an impossibility. Common courtesy, kindness, open-mindedness, are freely available to everyone, and it is quite literally baked into the tabula rasa of kids until we destroy it with our own selfish priorities.
As evidence: Antifa’s pimply membership has no legal justification to brandish arms in front of a library, and if people chose to retaliate, said spoiled little ***** would have no just recourse were they to be shot dead. They have no authority to ‘defend’ a public space. This is insanity. If it doesn’t stop soon, eventually someone is going to pull a trigger, and our dems only encourage it (with plausible deniability. Thankfully digital media is forever). It doesn’t have to go that far, but it is astonishing how many people that support dem policies are unaware of what they are actually voting for. i don’t say that lightly; watching brains switch off is a startling thing to behold.
What comes to mind is what Trumpists said in 2020……….”**** your feelings”
There’s a big difference between “F*** your feelings”, and “Shut the f*** up, or else”. The former is wholly appropriate, the latter is completely unacceptable.
currentsitguy,
Quite right.
I could say “F*** your feelings.”
Then what? I could walk away. The other person could walk away. Although in this day and age, the other person would claim that was violence as he/she/xi feels unseen. Whatever that means.
On the other hand, Shut the f*** up, or else” implies the use of violence or actual violence as we have seen from leftists.
While it is true that the overwhelming majority of violence comes from leftists,
It is wrong, factually and morally to leave those on the left with the impression that their lawless misconduct and destruction of trust in our institutions will not eventually result in violence.
Read the declaration of independence. It is essentially a legal argument for the justification of revolt – including violence against a government that has lost the trust of the people.
I do not beleive we will come to civil war.
I do not beleive the right will need to resort to violence.
Nor was the J6 protest an insurrection.
But it was a step towards that. It was a modern equivalent of the boston massacre.
It was rowdy citizens who had lost trust in their govenrment demanding their voice be heard.
It was an excercise of most of our first amendment rights that was met with force and abrogation of rights by those in government.
The J6 protests came to the most important public political protest venue in the US to make their voices heard as the constitition allows. And they were met with locked doors and armed violent resistance thwarting their excercise of their rights.
The Capital police were free to assure they did not bring bombs or weapons before entering the capital.
They were free to limit the numbers that could enter the capital at one time to no more than the police were capable of keeping out of the non-public areas of the capital.
But government was NOT free to bar access to the capital.
Congress was in session and the first amendment guarantees each of our right to express our disapproval of anything that our elected representatives seek to do – at the capital, face to face.
Our congress is not free to cower behind locked doors while it acts. It must act with those of us who disagree glaring down on them and making clear the political price we will impose for their conduct. And we must be permitted to do that whether we oppose the certification of an election or the approval of a supreme court justice.
Both eschew civility which is more of the point Turley os trying to make. Problem is that it is not a problem that is exclusively of the left which is what Turley is deliberately insinuating.
Well civility is circumstantial and largely in the eye of the beholder. If I had employees (which I don’t) then all I would care about is getting the job I needed done, and their feelings are completely irrelevant. If I were a councilor, then of course feelings are of paramount value. My point is one is a statement of opinion, insensitive as it may be, and the other is an implied threat.
If you had any employees, either you’d change your tune or you wouldn’t have them for long. The difference between owning a company, even a small one, and working for a company are similar to the difference between chicken salad and something that comes out of the north end of a south-bound chicken.
My wife and I have owned our business for 14 years now. We have no employees by choice. I have always only really been successful and productive when I am left alone. I know my strengths and weaknesses, and dealing with other people on a day in, day out basis is definitely not my strong suit. I admit it, never did sports growing up. Had no interest, and the very idea of being part of a “team” I found abhorrently repugnant. That independent streak has carried over into my adult personal and professional life.
+1000 @ fishwings
OT: The lack of compassion from the left
—
Drowned children lay bare surge in migrant deaths, disappearances at southern border under Biden
According to the UN’s International Organization for Migration, there was a 53% increase in migrant deaths and disappearances at the border last year — the most recorded since at least 2014, when the agency began documenting migrant deaths.
https://justthenews.com/government/security/blood-his-hands-migrants-deaths-southern-border-surge-under-biden?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter
Immigration reform with collateral damage at both ends of the bridge and throughout (i.e. transnational), laced with social progress where the “burdens” of evidence are aborted (“reproductive health”) then sequestered in darkness (e.g. impregnated by forward-looking masculinists). Keep women affordable, available, and taxable, and little girls, and, with political congruence (“=”), little boys, too.
I think the first thing Professor Turley needs to remind his law students is that lawyers that are not zealous and outspoken in the courtroom tend to starve.
Take a knee, beg, good boy, good girl, stay.
I don’t think conservatives fear sharing conservative views – such as free markets work better than heavily regulated markets. But I think they would fear sharing a Marjorie Taylor Greene rant about gay people if that is how they feel. And if they want to rant about how Donald Trump really won the last election they probably rightly feel that their classmates will consider them unable to discern fact from the most obvious fiction and therefore lack one of the main skills of being a lawyer. Really, many of the comments on this board would be laughed at by most first year law students, but would be welcome in the safe space of Professor Turley’s office when no one will disabuse them of these notions.
Don’t say trans.
Who would have believed in the United States law students would fear speaking their opinion regardless who is offended by their position? Please list those who are not afraid to speak their opinion, for they are America’s future to freedom.
I’m certain these students are a bit more perceptive than you give them credit for: “unable to discern fact from the most obvious fiction?” Would that include such current Lysenkoisms like “transwomen are women,” “men can menstruate,” and “men can get pregnant”?
And they are certainly perceptive enough to realize that had a Saintly Person of Color ™ been running for President in 2020, and had there been over a 1000 affidavits about poll-watchers being removed or denied access, the magic of found ballots, the recounts (without audits), and all the other little irregularities that only seemed to afflict votes for Trump, there would have been a lot of “mostly peaceful protests.” Had those been documents, complaints, and law-suits originated from voters of color, the inevitable result would have been that 1) The yammering heads of the Democrat Propaganda Complex would still be talking about the illegitimacy of the current Administration, and 2) Blue Cities would still be burning.
With respect, RMGriffis, I disagree. For one thing, Trump lost big – 7 million out of the 155 million cast for him and Crooked Joe. It’s not as if the election was close. In fact, the vote for Biden in the Electoral College in 2020–306 to 232–was the converse of what the final Electoral-College tally was for Trump in 2016.
Interesting you can’t count.
To bad you people can no longer see either with your Stockholm Syndrome, but I’ve not a lot of time here.
If I see the another simple example of the massive 2020 election fraud I’ll try to post it.here.
*****************
(Note the date)
BREAKING: 37,500 Affidavits Delivered to Gwinnett County, Georgia Election Board – 20,000 Challenging the 2020 Election Which Never Should Have Been Certified in Georgia
By Joe Hoft
Published August 29, 2022 at 10:30am
649 Comments
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/08/breaking-37500-affidavits-delivered-gwinnett-county-georgia-election-board-20000-challenging-2020-election-results-enough/
Spend the $20 bucks for the video: 2000 Mules & the $28 bucks for the Great Reset by Alex Jones this weekend & you’ll be pretty close to up to date.
And Read George’s stuff right here on this blog!
Gnite
Missed
********
Spend the $20 bucks for the video: 2000 Mules & the $28 bucks for the Great Reset by Alex Jones this weekend & you’ll be pretty close to up to date.
And Read George’s stuff right here on this blog!
Gnite
It sounds like your conservative/libertarian students feel they can air their views in your class and feel comfortable talking to you about their views. Have you surveyed your own more progressive students to find if they self-censor if their views clash with your conservative views/alternative facts universe?
Monotonic, divergent alternatives would never have progressed if the majority philosophy had not respected minority rights.
As a Bill-Buckley type of conservative, I have followed Prof. Turley for more many years. I have also exchanged many emails with him. I would eat my hat if he ever penalized even one of his students for holding political views that clashed with his. In fact, I’d be downright dumbfounded if he did that.
Back in the 1980s, I taught senior business students in academe for a half-decade. I often found myself muzzling my opinons because I didn’t want to get on the wrong side of any of my colleagues or face the prospect of any of my students complaining about my views. I was a PhD student back then. Although I didn’t finish the doctorate, I witnessed on many occasions the veracity of an old saying: “Academic politics are the most vicious kind of politics. . .because the stakes are so low.”
The real problem is that there are very few “Conservatives” left in the GOP – most of the Goldwater and Reagan Conservatives no longer belong to the Republican Party.
Today’s “Conservatives” seem to be liberal-spending racists and bigots that oppose the outcomes of free and fair elections, that is why so many people oppose using the false label “Conservative”.
Real Conservatives, like George Will and Alan Simpson, have essentially been kicked out of the GOP. They aren’t opposing real Conservative values, they are opposing tribalism, racism and bigotry.
There are very few real Conservative students promoting small limited and constitutional government on any college campus today. The GOP kicked those values out of their party.
“There are very few real Conservative students promoting small limited and constitutional government on any college campus today. The GOP kicked those values out of their party.”
This sounds like a joke where the comedian makes an ass of himself.
You’re right that diversity [dogma] (i.e. color judgment, class-based bigotry), Inequity, and Exclusion (DIE) is a progressive condition that is a persistent threat in liberal societies.
That said, libertarianism is independent, liberalism is divergent, progressivism is monotonic, conservativism is moderating. #PrinciplesMatter
The governing spectrum is from libertarians on the right to authoritarians on the left, anarchy on the far-right to totalitarianism on the far-left, where the left-right nexus is leftist. #HateLovesAbortion
Three Stooges film. “Hotsie Totsie, I smell a Nazi!”
Film banned from schools.
That’s life.
We all learn to censor our speech in front of our bosses, our customers, and the girl that we are trying to seduce.
The conservative students learn that lesson early.
Ran a turnaround company (lots of layoffs expected/wanted) a few years ago.
Got a lot of younger people and women asserting their world views to me.
Totally inappropriate and unwanted in that setting.
I wanted to succeed, so these views were tolerated if the people added value; views became very important if the people were low value or redundant.
False comparison.
On the contrary, the university setting is the one place students – and faculty – should be expected to freely voice subjective truths and opinions.
Academic freedom is dead. Long live academic freedom.
Signed,
Ex-graduate nursing professor
Once the old Soviet style Propaganda tricks are revealed to you, they become so obvious and thread worn. That is why Teachers and schools banned the reading of Orwell and Huxley. Got to keep the kids ignorant of the tricks pulled on them, or they will not support this Totalitarian movement for Dictatorship. After all, most people are not as stupid as Rob Reiner and his cretinous ilk. They are just ignorant of the manipulation.
Can you tell me which school has banned the reading of Orwell and Huxley? That sounds like something that is just made up – either by you or the Big Brother from whom you get your information.
How whiny you all sound. Conservatives have to self-censor because people don’t like our political views and liberals can say whatever they want. They’re being mean to us and only us. The so called liberals are a mixture of groups that have had/have the same concerns forever. Conservatives have never been concerned to the same degree as women, gays, Latinos, Asians, Blacks, the handicapped, people that don’t speak English as a first language. Some of you talked about forming your own schools and classes? Your problem is that you have always had your own schools and classes and finally had to let other people in. A “Christian” school in Tampa just banished all the LBGTQ students, you guys probably applaud that effort. Self-censoring has been a means of survival for centuries in America, welcome to the club.
Enigma, that was certainly my take on that as well.
Everyone self censors. It’s not exclusive to conservative students.
Rubbish. You sound like you agree with the persecution because it is YOUR side that is benefiting from it.
M W,
That’s not “persecution”. Since when is criticism deemed “persecution”?
As I pointed out in another post. This notion of “persecution” is no different than when Christians cry “persecution” what they are being called out on their hypocrisy. The victimhood defense is a very convenient excuse for a weak argument.
Enigma, that was certainly my take on that as well.
You understood that? I’ve never tried to learn word salad as a language.
That wasn’t a word salad. Maybe you didn’t recognize it because you prefer ranting nonsensical statements as better arguments.
Always been unfair.
“The strong do what they will, the weak endure what they must.” Tacitus.
“Turnabout is fair play” is not an answer or solution to a problem that is increasingly threatening to irrevocably fracture society, particularly when today’s students weren’t even alive in the past you refer to. We had best find a way to accommodate all views in a civil manner, because the alternative rapidly approaching is a level of rage and violence that no government force will be able to quell.
I’m not advocating “turnabout is fair play,” nor was I speaking of the ancient past. The people whining here have no real interest in hearing all views, they are mad because theirs are no longer the only ones that have to be considered. If you want to see tyranny, let DeSantis take power and get rid of the “woke.” He’s getting rid of elected officials that don’t share his views, he created his own army and police force, is imposing his view of Christianity in the schools, if you want to see self-censoring, move to Florida.
Enigma, that is a bunch of bull. You are the one who has tunnel vision and manipulates facts to your desired conclusions. DeSantis is a great governor. That is recognized by most on both sides of the aisle. That is why conservatives and libertarians have overwhelming support for him. It is also why the Democrats started sliming him quite awhile ago.
Compare Florida’s response to Covid with other states. Florida did fantastically and didn’t destroy its economy.
Florida is protecting its children and DeSantis has pushed programs to educate them better. He also wishes to secure schools from violent people and the first step is to get rid of those that permitted the tragedy that occurred at Majory Stoneman Douglas High.
DeSantis is protecting our democracy by preventing voter fraud.
Florida’s citizens are free. Compare that to the citizens run by the left.
You don’t want him as President. That is why you attack him. It’s all your fascination with a dying ideology.
I’m limited to two links per comment, you obviously don’t live in Florida
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103688/coronavirus-covid19-deaths-us-by-state/
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-op-com-moment-of-silence-legislation-20210520-6yyj7bxrrnfnbjjbbugsubu7nu-story.html
Enigma: You state, “The people whining here have no real interest in hearing all views, they are mad because theirs are no longer the only ones that have to be considered.”
Speaking for myself (but probably for others), I would suggest that many visitors to this site “have real interest in hearing all views.” I appreciate that you apparently have the courage of your convictions, and you are articulate, but you are stepping on your own two feet.
(1) the statistical Covid deaths website to which you refer does not rank according to “per 100,000 residents” (or some other criterion that puts things in perspective). You will note that California is No.1 on that list–hardly a haven for tyrannical Republican governors.
(2) you cite as authoritative an “opinion” from the Sun Sentinel (very left-wing–I lived in FL for several years and still have property there)????? I smile.
If we are limited to two links per comment, perhaps you need to find (and I stress “find”) two that are credibly more consistent with your opinion.
(3) I apologize because I still haven’t taken the time to look into your claim that the good professor wrote “dozens” of articles about Hunter BIden” in the last few months……(perhaps I was secretly trying to let yo save face).
Thanks.
(sorry for the punctuation and spelling errors.)
I was replying to someone that stated how well Florida had done during COVID. That someone probably didn’t realize more people have died in Florida than his state of New York. Yes Florida has a lot of deaths because it has a large population, most COVID statistics are snapshots ad a particular week or month and don’t give a long term picture but per capita or by any other measure Florida hasn’t been that safe and many more people died than were needed.
Regarding DeSantis and the schools, I selected among dozens of possibilities the most right wing source I could find that applauds DeSantis’s agenda. It glorifies what he’s doing but at least acknowledges he has an agenda that sounds like the opposite of freedom.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/desantis-tells-cpac-to-put-on-full-armor-of-god.html
I’ll let you read what the Governor says himself about the indoctrination he’s imposing on state schools and the university system.
https://flgov.com/2021/06/22/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-to-set-the-pace-for-civics-education-in-america/
If you don’t like the sources provided, you always have the option to check for yourself.
“That someone probably didn’t realize more people have died in Florida than his state of New York.”
Enigma, you need to learn to think. New York’s population is smaller than Florida, so you cannot deal in absolute numbers. Additionally, Florida has a population of elderly that is much greater than NY. The elderly are the ones that most commonly died. When one runs the numbers, one recognizes you don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.
“than his state of New York.”
I don’t know how many times I have to mention this. I have a home in Manhattan, but that is not where I live.
The population difference is negligible (which I knew). My point is that Florida did no better than New York. Florida has what should have been some distinct advantages, more open spaces, less public transportation, less overall contact with others. Florida could have done much better but it didn’t. Counties, Cities, Schools, Cruise Lines, and private businesses all tried to implement reasonable controls but DeSantis was more than willing to kill more people to make the economy look stronger. All because he wants to be President.
Florida (Population: 21,944,577)
New York (Population: 19,299,981)
https://worldpopulationreview.com/states
~2.7 million is significant
The most important factor is the number of seniors and along with 2.7 million people Florida has many more seniors than NY. Stop trying to prove yourself right when it is clear you are wrong.
“DeSantis was more than willing “
There wasn’t much any state could do to reduce the number of deaths. However, there were stupid things states could do that would increase deaths. Cuomo did a lot of stupid things. DeSantis handled things well. I once ran the numbers using seniors as one of the metrics and Florida did vastly better than NY.
Florida and New York are almost the same in covid deaths per capita:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
And census data shows FL has a greater percentage over 65 and a smaller percentage under 18 than NY. Simply being over 65 is a comorbidity for covid.
So DeSantis didn’t do any better than Cuomo, right? Also, Florida is the only state in the union that didn’t pre-order the new vaccine for young children and the major vaccine distributor in the state, Publix, refuses to make the vaccine available. Publix has a long history of backing the right for which it is highly rewarded.
Why order a vaccine for young children when the vaccine provided is yet to be officially approved? Why give it when the risk is low, and the risks of the vaccine might be comparatively high for children?
I wouldn’t give the vaccine to any young children. That is crazy.
“Publix, refuses to make the vaccine available. Publix has a long history of backing the right for which it is highly rewarded.”
If I were Publix, I might not provide the vaccine either, with the reports that have come out, but I don’t know if you know what you are talking about. You call Publix right-wing (“backing the right”), I guess that is why Publix is known for hiring disabled people and the disadvantaged. That is correct. Where charity is concerned, conservatives are more charitable than the left.
The only state in the nation that didn’t preorder a supply. Florida. Whatever your opinion of vaccines, he alone is making it harder for his residents to make that choice for themselves.
The vaccines for young people are available in Florida. There is no problem getting the vaccine.
However, it would be best for children not to get the vaccine. …And what are the being vaccinated for? Covid 19 that is gone?
Enigma, being limited to two links doesn’t mean you shouldn’t think. Link less and think more.
This is what I said: “Compare Florida’s response to Covid with other states. Florida did fantastically and didn’t destroy its economy.”
There are not many things one could do to stop Covid 19 infections, but there were a few. Florida’s death rate per 100,000 was in the middle, a little higher than the absolute numbers in other states. However, Florida has the largest senior population, and those are the people that died. When one runs the numbers, one sees you have no facility whatsoever with statistics. That is why you almost always are wrong coming out at the bottom of the pack.
Unlike NYC Florida did not place Covid patients in its nursing homes, killing many people. NYC had younger deaths due to mass transit because NYC didn’t clean the subways.
If all states had the same number of seniors as Florida, and we compared their Covid-19 responses based on morbidity & Mortality, economic factors, education, freedom, etc. Florida did fantastically. You live in Florida, so one can only conclude you know very little about your surroundings.
Actual death RATES by state
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
Do you think we are so stupid that we do not know that total deaths per state will always be highest for the states with the highest population.
Regardless, globally and in the US Covid death rates vary by demographics and geography. Without reference to public policies.
But other negative impacts vary by the rigidity of policy.
Decline in GDP,
Decline in jobs,
increase in suicides
increase in drug overdoses,
increase in crime
While not uniformly worse in blue than red states, they are overall worse in states that had draconian policies.
I was only saying to Allan that Florida was no better than New York.
But, Enigma, you were wrong both in the number of deaths, on the economic impact and other things.
“I was only saying to Allan that Florida was no better than New York.”
I do not think that is correct – though I would say that accross the US the death rates vary primarily, probably even exclusively by geographic and demographic factors.
But FL and NY are radically different outside of the direct effects of Covid, in the domain of the effects of government policies regarding Covid.
The evidence that any active public policy had any positive health benefits is poor to none.
The evidence of 2nd and 3rd order harms of public policies is enormous.
NY did far worse than FL in most every other way other than 1st order effects which are indistinguishable.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
The left is under the delusion that the establishment clause requires that government must be atheist.
That is entirely false. The establishment clause prohibits government from being methodist, or catholic. or islamic.
From our inception – religion, primarily christianty has permeated our government.
Ultimately even athiesm is a religion. Religion is not avoidable.
Religion is the domain of morality – unless you are a pure utilitarian which is about as far from the left as you can get.
Religion is the domain of things that can not be falsified – that must be taken on “faith”.
The existance of god is an example. The non-existance of god is another.
I would be ecstatic to see schools have a moment of silence at the start of the day – 15 minutes is probably about right.
Pray, meditate, contemplate the nature of the universe, or the lint in your navel.
“Ultimately even athiesm is a religion.” Atheism is not a religion. I can’t be. Religion involves the worship of a deity. Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity. This is a common backhanded insult towards atheism.
“Religion is the domain of things that can not be falsified – that must be taken on “faith”.
Religion is the domain of things that cannot be proven. Things are falsified in religion all the time.
“The left is under the delusion that the establishment clause requires that government must be atheist.”
No. The left makes no such claim. What they DO claim correctly is that the government must be neutral in regards to religion. The constitution prohibits it from establishing any religion over any other and prohibits it from infringing on its free exercise of it.
Anything that can not be falsified, anything that is purely a matter of beleive is religion.
The modern left is deeply religious.
Thy are as rigid and unyeilding in their faith than christian fundimentalists.
“Religion is the domain of things that cannot be proven.”
“things that can not be proven” equals “things that can not be falsified”.
Falsification – particularly in the context of maths and science, is the examination of a claim to see if it is possible to disprove it.
The assertion thatr water boils at 100C at stp can be falsified – by getting water to boil at a temperature other than 100C at STP.
Science is the domain of assertions that can be falsified – that we can construct a test that would disprove the assertion depending on the result.
The assertion that there is a good is unfalsifiable. There is no means to test that proposition – it is unfalsifiable.
Therefore it is a question of beleif.
There is a reason for using falsifiable/unfalsifiable rather than proven.
Science is not the domain of things that are proven. Many things in science are not proven. Many things in science may be falsified. But science is the domain of things that can be disproven – that can be falsified.
“What they DO claim correctly is that the government must be neutral in regards to religion. The constitution prohibits it from establishing any religion over any other and prohibits it from infringing on its free exercise of it.”
Based on YOUR description the FL law is constitutional. Providing students time in which they can prey or meditate, does not advance any religion.
S. Meyer says, “ Florida’s citizens are free. Compare that to the citizens run by the left.”
Not if you’re a woman or LGBTQ. Their liberty is being constantly attacked and restricted. Corporations are being punished by the state for expressing opposition to the governor’s policies.
Svelaz, stop acting like an idiot. Jews are also attacked and restricted. I haven’t heard you complain about that. We all bear a burden, but LGBTQ are no worse off in Florida than they are in NYS. In fact they are better treated in the US than in most places in the world.
S. Meyer, so you admit that Florida’s citizens are NOT free.
“We all bear a burden, but LGBTQ are no worse off in Florida than they are in NYS. In fact they are better treated in the US than in most places in the world.”
They are not treated the same as everyone else, and conservatives are certainly intent on limiting their freedom in this country.
“S. Meyer, so you admit that Florida’s citizens are NOT free.”
That is a stupid statement. I admitted no such thing. No one is ever completely free, but people in Florida are freer than in some other states.
enigmainblack
“…he created his own army…”
Dramatic statement. Couldn’t find any support for it; could you point the blog readers in the right direction?
DeSantis created a law enforcement group to make sure elections are handled legally.
It’s hard to figure out what Enigma says because of his hyperbole.
My parents live in Florida.
Best friend lives there too.
What Enigma describes is in fact hyperbole.
Upstate, I know Florida well. Enigma lives in his own little world that is twisted due to his reliance on ideology rather than common sense.
Thank you for asking so kindly.
DeSantis Army
https://news.yahoo.com/disgusting-reality-behind-ron-desantis-005441102.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall
DeSantis Election Police
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/25/politics/desantis-florida-election-bill-signing/index.html
Neither one of those are legitimate news sources. Nothing but leftist propaganda.
The fact you tired to use CNN is telling at your leftist brainwashing.
I will never take you seriously again.
You’re free to use whatever news source you like. These things exist, Google them.
Absolutely when the left declares war on the norms and more’s of society – you can expect an army to resist you.
EB you are completely clueless.
We would all prefer that conflicts were as amicable as possible, that we did not have to resort to angry rhetoric or even actual violence.
But when those of you on the left seek to use force to reduce the freedom of the rest of us – violence is where we will eventually end up if you do not back down.
And quit the idiocy that violence is never justified.
Yersterday Armed antifa members showed up with AR-15’s at a children;’s drag queen event – to assure that no one would peacefully protest. ‘
You can hate Marjorie Taylor Green, But someone on the left has on two occasions called in false 911, calls stating that an armed and suicidal woman was holding her family hostage at her address. The police sent a swat team – as one would expect given thecall. Fortunately nothing bad happened. But on plenty of prior occasions flase 911 calls have resulted in the police killing someone innocent when they were told they were dangerous.
You threaten violence to supreme court justices.
And all of us have every reason to beleive you are actually violent – you burned down cities and destroyed business through the summer of 2020. You have used molotov cocktails on police.
And you lie constantly.
We now have a demented left wing nut president who thinks he can do whatever he wants.
A president who has accused his political opposition of being semi-fascist.
The founder of fascism – Benito Musollini defined fascism as “everything inside the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” – that is democrats, that is YOU.
It is beyond debate that the institutions of our government are politically corrupt.
Whether it is framing teenage mulsims after 9/11 or Ruby Ridge or Richard Jewel, or the Anthrax investigation, or Unrainum one, or the Clinton email server or the clinton foundation, or the collusion delusion or the FBI protecting a child predator in the USOC any of myriads of other examples of DOJ/./FBI corruption – reasonable people do not trust the FBI.
But it is bigger than that. Sam Harris’s viral video speaks the quite part out loud.
To thwart those you do not like – you will use ANY MEANS NECESCARY.
You will lie about your opponents, you will lie about yourselves, you will bury the truth or dissent with every oportunity.
You will use any and all power that you can grasp against political enemies.
You will use FORCE – the force of government and lock them up.
Thousands of people showed up at the capital on J6. None were armed. There was no insurrection – though keep it up and there will be. They wanted to march through the capital – expressing their outrage at a lawless and likely fraudulent election.
Almost 80% of the country now beleives that but for only ONE of the many ends justifies he means tactics you used, Biden would have lost. And they are right.
Regardless, YOU were allowed to excerise your right to protest Trump’s election in 2016. And many of you did, some violently.
There were acts of vandalism, and arson in DC prior to the certification and innauguration in 2016.
Many of you are STILL pushing the “big lie” that Clinton one. And before Trump was inaugurated those on the left inside and outside of government determnined to drive him out – BY ANY MEANS NECESCARY – you pushed lies and fraud, you conducted obviously illegal investigations.
Over the past decades we have had multiple tax returns of prominent people, or 501C3’s leaked – a federal crime.
Not one leak has been a left political donor or organization. The latest leak is even traceable to the NY AG’s office.
The same people who are busy trying to prosecute their political enemies.
Again “By Any Means necescary”.
If you gain control of a SINGLE portion of government – the house, the senate, the courts, the presidency, any governorship, secretary of states offices, any cabinet position – the slightest control of the smallest political fifedom, you will attempt to transform that position to infinite power. democratic judges need not follow the constitution or the law, Democrats within the FBI need not limit their political perdsecutions to the constraints of the constitution, democratic presidents can do whatever they please with a stroke of the pen – the constitution be damned.
You defend and support this – and you do not expect pushback ?
This will escalate until the left backs down or is destroyed, or until you have destroyed the country. Your choice.
Read and reread the declaration of independence. It is possibly the most significant document on government in history.
It establishes the right of the people to govern themselves. It establishes that the only legitimate purpose for government is the protection of rights not their destruction. It boldly asserts that the people – though long suffering are entitled to cast off opproessive government that is destructive of individual rights, and that they may legitimately do so through violence, if needed.
“During the American Civil War, the President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln, was advised to dismiss one of his most successful generals, a man named Ulyssus Grant. Lincoln was told that Grant was incompetent, ambitious, and a drunk. But Lincoln needed more than anything to win the war, and he told Grant’s detractor in no uncertain terms that his general would keep his job; not matter what ever other faults he might have, Lincoln said, Grant took the war to the enemy.”
“I cannot spare this man,” he said. “He fights.”
Should we have refrained from fighting the civil war ? Should we have allowed southern states to succeed and continue to keep slaves ?
Obviously violence is sometimes justified.
Republicans like Trump and DeSantis have the support of large numbers of americans – because whatever their flaws – they fight.
You are not free to indoctrinate our children against our will. You are not free to steal from us for yourselves.
You have pushed and pushed and pushed – you went too far long ago.
The only question now is how much effort must be expended to get you to back down.
If we choose to eliminate all forms of voting – except in person voting with photo ID on election day – so be it.
You shreiks of racism and voter supression do not work anymore. You are the little boy who cried wolf, and no one cares if the wolf comes for you anymore.
Those of us actually fighting to reduce the power and scope of the state are what Benito Musollini would have called anti-fascists,
And YOU are his fascist ally.
“Thousands of people showed up at the capital on J6. None were armed”
Your ability to deny facts is amazing. No point arguing with you.
Yet you will not be able to name one person that entered the capital with a gun.
Here are a few,
“Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/capitol-riot-molotov-cocktail-trump-b1957164.html
“Evidence of firearms in Jan. 6 crowd grows as arrests and trials mount”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/07/08/jan6-defendants-guns/
What person entered the capitol with a gun? None.
S. Meyer: I believe you are correct in your express statement. From the reporting I have seen, NO ONE entered the Capitol bldg. armed with a gun.
(A total of three persons were charged with carrying a gun onto the Capitol grounds; two more for bringing guns and/or explosives to Washington.)
Lin, thank you. Svelaz is an idiot to such an extent that he is not embarrassed by his continuous stupidity. He wants to argue, but he doesn’t want to know the facts.
You just changed the criteria from “at the Capitol” to inside the Capitol. Maybe you listened to the secret service and Capitol police pointing out the people with guns. Here are some people arrested with guns, some of them at the Capitol.
https://www.thetrace.org/2021/01/capitol-riot-firearms-arrests-proud-boys/
“You just changed the criteria from “at the Capitol” to inside the Capitol.”
Enigma, you need to check your work and check the facts. I said entered the capital with a gun. You make things up and make so many errors it is hard to keep up with them.
The exact quote:
“Yet you will not be able to name one person that entered the capital with a gun.”
Before that you said, “Thousands of people showed up at the capital on J6. None were armed” You changed the criteria to entered the castle when you realized you were wrong.
After being told of the errors you made in a short time with the quotes one would think you would be more careful with your statements. Your quote is wrong again. I never said that.
Enigma, why can’t you be careful? One can’t deal with a person who can’t make sure that what he says is true.
Valid Argument requires that you demonstrate your assertions particularly when you reject those of another.
What part of my post do you disagree with ?
Thousands were at the capital on J6 ?
That they obviously were not armed ? am guessing it i the latter.
Both DOJ, the capital police, and the FBI testified that they had no evidence that any protestors brought a firearm into the capital.
There is some video of a few people outside the capital with handguns in their belts.
Not one of those have every been arrested or to anyone’s public knowledge questioned.
It is likely they were undercover federal agents.
Regardless, they did not go into the capital. They did not brandish their guns, they did not use their guns,
and they likely were in legal posession of those guns. Certainly no one has even tried to prove otherwise.
A firearm was used once at the capital – by Officer Byrd to Murder Alishi Babbit.
That is the only firearm discharge during the entire protest.
There are DOJ faux charges against several people for weapons. All the firearms charges are for a small number of weapons in cars or hotel rooms. Again legal.
I know the left thinks the mere possession of a firearm is a crime – but unless you are a felon that is not true in the US.
SCOTUS has found that government can to a limited extent regulate public possession o firearms – but it can not prohibit it.
Regardless, we are talking about a handful of firearms that were never used.
If there was an actual insurrection there would have been thousands of AR-15’s. There was not one.
J6 was not an insurrection, It was more like the Boston Massacre.
What the left fears is that the Boston massacre was followed by Lexington and Concorde.
That WAS an armed insurrection.
If the left continues its lawlessness. If it continues to destroy and undermine the trust in our institutions – there we will eventually be an armed insurrection. And if you think the capital police or the National guard are going to thwart it – think again.
The military, the police, the national guard are highly unlikely to insert themselves into an armed political challenge to a lawless and untrusted government.
Think Tienamen square, Think East Germany when the Berlin wall came down.
But honestly I do not think we will get that far.
The left is too stupid and self destructive.
.
I
John B. Say, “armed” is not defined solely being armed with firearms. It also involves weapons used against officers. Batons, bear mace, clubs, flagpoles etc. They are all legally defined as weapons and thus can be claimed that Jan 6 protesters were indeed armed.
Firearms in DC ARE illegal. Especially when rioting is involved no matter where they were found.
“John B. Say, “armed” is not defined solely being armed with firearms. ”
Insurections involve FIREARMS.
When was the last time a nation was overthrown with mace ?
“it also involves weapons used against officers. Batons, bear mace, clubs, flagpoles etc. They are all legally defined as weapons and thus can be claimed that Jan 6 protesters were indeed armed.”
You are conflating criminal law – where eggs, and bedroom slippers are by law weapons. With bringing firearms or other offensive weapons for the purpose of overthrowing government.
Mace is a defensive weapon. If you have evidence of batons and clubs – provide it. The Flagpole was from the capital – it is not something that was brought. It was something used when the CP violated their rules of engagement and initiated deadly force against non-violent protesters in the west tunnel.
With respect to baton’s and clubs – please provide actual video of things that violated the Park Service rules for political protests.
The park service actually dictates the parameters of the sticks used to hold protest signs.
Do you have thousands of instances of protesters bringing things to J6 that were not permitted ?
“Firearms in DC ARE illegal.”
Nope, litterally DC lost a supreme court case on that.
“Especially when rioting is involved nyo they were found matters.
If you engage in actual physical assault of a police office in the midst of an actual riot, and you have an AR-15 back at your hotel.
You are guilty of beating an officer with your fists, but you legal possession of an AR15 somewhere else does not become a crime.
In fact if you have an AR-16 slung over your back and you beat a police officer with your fists, that AR-15 can not constitutionally result in an additional criminal charge without being used actively in part of a criminal act – unless, you are a person not to possess.
The DC police lost their ability to control what entered the capital when they locked the capital down.
J6 protestors would have been perfectly happy if the CP had controlled access to the capital – as they normally do, not allowing people to enter with bags, sticks, whatever.
When you illegally and unconstitutionally lock down a public forum you obliterate your ability to control what comes in.
With respect to every single instance where someone at J6 is charged with a weapons violation – unless those weapons were USED – those charges MUST be constitutionally dropped.
Your buddy Allan said “at the Capitol with guns,” neither he nor you hgets to change the criteria. He can make an idiotic statement with no documentation yet I have to prove everything to your satisfaction from a source you agree with.
https://www.thetrace.org/2021/01/capitol-riot-firearms-arrests-proud-boys/
Enigma, it is amazing how you will lie to feed your own ego. This is nonsense. You don’t even bother to check your facts. You created a new quote that is yours, not mine.
Those reading this and aware of our discussions having to do with your accusation of Donald Trump being a racist because of something that may or may not have happened 20 years before Donald was born, once again see how easy it is for you to make up quotes and lie.
Do you think it makes you more believable? It doesn’t, but you will convince yourself it does.
“A Running List of Gun Arrests Tied to the U.S. Capitol Attack”
The title of your article refutes itself.
There was no “capital attack”.
Protesters sought to exercise their constitutional first amendment rights to protest, to assemble and to petition govenrment at a public forum.
Everything bad that followed was the direct consequence of the illegal and unconstitutional lockdown of the capital on J6.
Has protestors gone to DC for the purpose of “attacking” the capital – they woul have brought AR-15’s in the thousands.
They did not.
I am not interested in stupid claims that some guy with bear spray, is proof of an insurrection.
On April 19, 1775 colonists at lexington and concord faced down British soldiers.
The colonists were all armed with rifles – hundreds of them.
Approximately 70 colonists and 70 british soldiers were killed.
That was an actual insurrection.
We are told that the rioters at the federal courthouse in Portland who for 200 nights straight faced organized rioters who brought lasers to blind police, brought rocks, and molotov cocktails and fireworks and who tried on several occasions to burn the courthouse down, are far less consequential than J6 ?
What occured at J6 was the consequence of Government failure. And was inconsequential compared to any of the things that occured over the “summer of love” 2020.
In the real world we compare things directly.
Atleast 600 people went through the capital on J6.
None had firearms QED no insurrection PERIOD.
If you are ranting about insurrection – you are LYING.
Accross the country – right and left, protestors, in some cases armed protestors have marched through state capitals on numerous occasions over the past decade or so. All of the armed protests – protestors carrying guns have been peaceful.
All of the protests by the right have been peaceful. Even the left’s capital protests – including those in the nations capital which often were not peaceful, did not result in prosecutions.
At the Kavanaugh protests, one protestor brought an Axe and used it on a senators door, and not only were charges dropped, but the protestors axe was returned.
There is nothing wrong with protesting at capitals. In fact a state capital or the federal capital are the most important public venues for political protest. Often I am aghast at left wing protests, but I would NEVER claim those on the left should be barred from protesting.
We do not bar political protest because it MIGHT become violent.
That is a basis for searching protestors, not for shutting down the constitutional right to protest.
I found the conduct of the Kavanaugh protestors reprehensible – but with few exceptions it was legal.
The reason that the limited J6 violence occured is because the INTENT of protestors was to march 100,000 protestors through the capital while congress was debating and voting to certify the election in the hope that sufficient number of republican senators and representatives, would vote against certification. Even if protestors had FAILED to thwart certification, had they gotten sufficient numbers of republicans to challenge certification, the LIE that the 2020 election had been fraud free would be more effectively challenged.
There is no difference in intent between Capital protesters and Kavanaugh protesters,
they both intended to try to get legislators to vote differently.
That is perfectly legitimate.
I am glad that you and the left continue to act stupidly self righteous and actually fascist.
Fascism: All inside the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state,
Benito Mussolini
Certainly not Trump,
Certainly not the right.
Accurate description of the modern progressive left.
The more stupid things you do – the more people you alienate.
A plurality of people beleive there was election fraud in 2020.
You do not have legitimate government.
It is a GOVERNMENT requirement that it earn the trust of the people.
It is not the duty of the people.
Almost 80% beleive that the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop changed the outcome of the election.
We KNOW that the government itself participated in suppressing the truth – undermining the trust of the people.
The raid on MAL was another left wing nut stupidity.
The raid bumped Trump’s poll numbers by 10pts.
You nearly assured he will be the GOP candidate in 2024.
And currently he leads Biden by 5pts in the popular vote.
The ASA in charge has resigned under a cloud, of many allegations of political bias.
The FBI and DOJ are tainted, and untrusted and it will take massive efforts to wash away the stench.
The WH was caught in a lie. NARA communications prove that Biden was in it from the start, and that Biden pushed for the DOJ/FBI involvement in a civil manner.
You are losing on the law, but worse still you are losing on the politics and credibility.
You have F’d up what should have been a bombing economy.
We have the highest inflation in a generation, and are in the early parts of a recession.
Biden is the weakest president in my lifetime.
The Ukraine war is a consequence of bad policy and accurate perceptions of weakness.
And Biden will fight Putin to the very last ukrainian.
But just like Clinton’s ukrainian Coup in 2014 – that resulted in the invasion of Crimea – this was not necescary.
But for multiple levels of stupidity by those on the left, Russia would not have invaded Ukraine.
I can go on and on. Each of these may only erode the support of the left a few percent,
But a few percent here, a few percent there, and you lose big.
Keep going after parents angry about their kids being indoctrinated.
Keep calling half the nation semi-fascist from the Whitehouse and see how long you keep it.
Keep fighting against election integrity.
Keep fighting for lawlessness.
Keep doing stupid and unconstitutional things like bailing out student loans for the elite.
That the rest of us must pay for.
Keep doing everything possible to further divide the country and them blame those angry at your stupid policies.
EB – I want you to continue to do the stupid things you do.
I want you to keep driving people like Tulsi Gabbard, and Joe Rogan, and Bill Mahr further and further right.
Well said John!!!
John,
Outstanding post!
I think that we are far from an actual civil war.
I do not beleive this will ever come to that.
But republicans biggest mistake on J6 was being embarrased that they broke down the doors when Pelosi unconstitutionally locked down the capital.
We have listened to almost two years of nonsense that J6 was somehow worse than the arson’s and lootings and murders that occured all summer in 2020.
J6 was no different from the Kavanaugh protests – except that J6 protestors are rotting in jail while Kavanaugh protestors had all charges dismissed – even the person who took an axe to a senators door – got the charges dropped and the axe returned.
Those on the right have alot to learn. they face a hostile media, that is going to strive to flip the narative.
We saw that at Charllotesville in 2017.
It is irrelevant if those involved in the protests were all nazi’s and KKK members.
In the past when I was a member of the ACLU I fought for the right of nazi’s and the KKK to protest.
At Charlottesville – after running a guantlet being pummeled by rocks and frozen water bottles even spray cans used as flame throwers, with no police protection – legitimate protestors with a permit, had their permit revoked and were forced to run the same guantlet again, and one of them lost his cool and did something stupid.
And that became the story. Not the thousands of acts of violence against the legitimate protestors.
And we see the same with J6. Pelosi gamed the event knowing the media would cover for her.
So the story was not why were protestors locked out, but why were windows broken.
The risk of actually violent protests from the right is amplified, when both those on the left, those in government, and those in the media are actively working to re-frame a violation of protesters constitutional rights into an armed insurrection.
But this only works so far.
The more the left destroys its own credibility, the less it will matter how they portray anything.
Just a few of the bits of news this week that the media has mostly ignored.
ASAC Thibault was fired on Friday. He was a lead agent on the MAL raid, on the Hunter Biden laptop supression, on the Clinton server coverup, on the collusion delsion and on the Whitmer kidnapping entrapment.
If someone told me he arranged the death of Whitey Bulgar I would have little trouble beleiving it.
It is now clear the WH has been lying about the MAL raid, they were involved from the start, and responsible for escalating it to a criminal investigation.
The Tax Return of Nikki Halley’s 501C3 was leaked to the public revealing donor names. The leaked document has the NY AG offices stamp on it. The courts have ruled – against federal law and in favor of various political actors to provide private tax returns to an assortment of agencies and investigations, which have all fizzled because they have no substance.
And what was predicted has proved true. The government, house committees, State AG’s can not be trusted not to break multiple laws and leak illegally and immorally.
It is likely that a special master will be appointed to review the documents seized. So much for the claims that Trump’s lawyers are not competent. When is it that we learn that these “experts” who have been wrong about pretty much everything – are not going to be less wrong in the future.
The president has called half the country Semi-fascist – the most actually fascist president ever is calling the actual anti-fascists in the country fascists.
Fascist: Everything inside the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.
Benito Mussolini.
The president of the untied states has publicly bribed the elite of the country – those going to or graduated from college, those near certain to have an upper middle class or better life with money from ordinary people, from the working class, from the poor.
This will further increase the cost of college – the FED found that for every $1 of federally subsidized loans the const of college went up $0.60. This will further fuel inflation. And it will further increase division in the country.
That’s definitely John B. Say. The long winded rant is back.
“ If you gain control of a SINGLE portion of government – the house, the senate, the courts, the presidency, any governorship, secretary of states offices, any cabinet position – the slightest control of the smallest political fifedom, you will attempt to transform that position to infinite power.”
Strange, that’s exactly what republicans have been doing for years. That’s why Trump sought to stay in power by making false claims of election fraud. Makes sense.
“ Thousands of people showed up at the capital on J6. None were armed.”
There’s plenty of evidence that a lot of them were armed. Even Trump demanded those who kept setting off the metal detectors be allowed into the rally. He wasn’t concerned about those people harming him. He was fine with them being armed for those who didn’t kowtow to his delusion that the election was stolen.
John,
I have stated on this blog more than a few times that civil war is a path we must not take.
However, you stated, “This will escalate until the left backs down or is destroyed, or until you have destroyed the country. Your choice.”
Based off their rhetoric, I do think they would be willing to destroy the country to either maintain power, or in an attempt to deny anyone else that power.
Just look at Biden’s recent rhetoric about “semi-facists.”
How many Dems supported the 2020 Summer of Love, fiery but mostly peaceful protests. The defund the police movement. An open border policy. All supported by Dems.
All are or were promoting lawlessness.
Antifa showing up armed to support a grooming event.
Dems declaring parents should have no say in their children’s education.
All of these things and more are about the destruction of this country.
Two things have always stood out to me:
The Constitution
And Dr. Martin Luther Kings “I Have A Dream” speech.
While we may not have 100% all the same values, for the most part, all Americans agreed on the Constitution.
Some may have not liked Dr. King, in his “I Have A Dream,” speech, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!”
“. . . live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
That is something I think everyone can agree on. And it is not limited to the color of ones skin. It is not limited to ones lifestyle preference. It is not limited to ones education. It is not limited by ones occupation. It is not limited by ones political affiliation.
But the content of their character.
“. . . live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Upstate, it appears many of the left and some on this blog have given up on that dream.
Most of the left is actively opposed to MLK’s dream.
I agree. Most of the left that is adhering to its present doctrine is racist. At present it appears the left is becoming sexist as well and denying woman their right of womanhood.
We do not agree on Dr. King speech today. There is a reason that King is pretty much not cited at all by the left today.
Because modern progressive views on race are racist, they are antithetical to Kings.
Because what is in some places by taught even to younger students and often to college students is that you are inherently inferior because you are white, or because you are male, or because you are straight,
I do not think we will have a civil war either.
I beleive that because the left – and even the democratic party continues to push for extremely radical changes that alienate significant portions of people. Doing so undermines their ability to win elections – even ones where they stack all the odds in their favor.
I am honestly surprised at their ability to retain power, at how slowly people are turning on them.
But the shift is still very real and not easily reversed.
Who would have guessed 10 years ago that Republicans would have near 50% of the hispanic vote ?
Who would have guessed that Democrats were increasingly the party of white elites and big business ?
I do not believe we will get to civil war. Like our founders asserted int he Declaration of independence – using force in response to tyranny should not be taken lightly.
But I am making clear that the use of force is not inherently wrong.
As a conservative brown person, I find the hostility from leftist to be alarming. I find the fact they will shout down, tear down, or disrupt conservative rallies dangerous. The fact that faculty and the administration does little to nothing to try to bring a degree of civility back to campuses.
Of course we talk about forming conservative schools or classes. We want to bring back civility to campus. We want for everyone to be able to speak their minds and not feel fear, the kind of fear that is gripping universities today.
Conservatism is what you like to think people are objecting to. If someone objects to white supremacists, Neo-Nazis, skinheads, et.al,, they aren’t being objected to because they are conservative. General speaking, most of the levers of power are controlled by the right, some of whom are conservative. Police forces, the Courts (especially the Supreme Court), corporations, school boards, state legislatures. Do you even acknowledge hostility on the right? They are the ones advocating for an assault weapon in all their homes (for collecting or hunting game).
Had you been paying attention, the leftists have and are linking conservatives and GOP as being white supremacists, Neo-Nazis, skinheads, et al.
Heck, Biden himself compares millions of Americans to “semi-facists.”
And he is not alone in that kind of dangerous rhetoric. More than a few Dems have used similar language.
NY Gov Hochul told all Republicans to leave NY as they supposedly do not represent NY values.
Google it.
So, the recent Drag Queen production (aka groomer event) in Roanoke TX, Antifa thugs showed up with AR15s. It has been noted not a peep from gun control groups like Moms Demand or Everytown USA.
Google it.
” Biden himself compares millions of Americans to “semi-facists.”
Biden specifically didn’t include conservatives, he was referring to the “Ultra-MAGA” tell me where I’m wrong?
I did Google the event you mentioned, it was hard to find even-handed reporting but the New York Post, hardly a liberal rad, described what you didn’t mention. Armed Proud Boys members and others who rallied to protest the event . it’s still unfolding so you may turn out to be wrong about who gives a peeop?
https://nypost.com/2022/08/30/armed-antifa-proud-boys-clash-at-texas-kids-drag-brunch/
You are not wrong.
But Biden and others are still using dangerous rhetoric. And there are many people, as the professor has highlighted in past columns, that declare conservatives as being white supremacists, Nazis, etc.
Tell me where I am wrong?
That is the first I read about proud boys being there.
As of my initial posting, the anti-gun groups have yet to state anything.
I also read that the Antifa was also at the 3rd floor of a garage building, sniper like. https://twitter.com/realKrisCruz/status/1564061982646345729
Upstatefarmer. Usually when the proud boys or the bugaloo boys are known to be attending an event it’s is almost always a fact that ANTIFA will be there. Antifa is only there to protest against fascists. That’s what “ANTIFA” stands for. “Anti-Fascist”.
Sometimes the left is threatening organizations and the Proud Boys stand there to protect those inside the discussions. Antifa is there as well and sometimes both groups end up in a fight. Since we have seen Antifa put buildings on fire and cause damage and death, the fears against those leftists are very real.
““Ultra-MAGA””
Enigma, can you define “Ultra-MAGA” and tell us what percent of conservative /libertarians are “Ultra-MAGA”?
Oh, about those institutions you list, many of them are woke.
And many of them are getting voted out, by the people.
Of 30 school boards in FL, 25 flipped from liberal to conservative.
Some corporations that went woke, are going broke and are adjusting accordingly as the people vote with their wallets.
What about the DOJ or FBI? Are they really in control by the right?
VA Gov Youngkin, voted in by the people. Why? Long time traditional voting Dems switched when the Dem candidate declared parents should not have a say in their children’s education.
So if it is the right control the levers of power, it was the people who put them there.
With exception of the DOJ and FBI.
Yes the DOJ and FBI have always been right leaning, more so today than before.
Bahahahahahahahhahahah….cough,…..cough….bhahahahhahahhahahah. You really believe that?? You believe anything they are spewing at you. Turn off your TV and mingle with normal people.
Wen Bars,
I posted something similar, but WP had a hiccup and it did not go through.
The FBI agents, the whistleblowers, they are the true patriots. They are the ones calling out the politicization of the FBI, mostly at the higher levels. They are the ones pointing out how senior agents are instructing jr agents to inflate their domestic terrorism numbers to make them look better or get promoted.
But EB would never see that. He only watches CNN.
Wen Bars,
Did you notice he ignore the rest of my post?
When facts present themselves, leftists tend to run and hide.
Or say something like, “No point arguing with you.” And then run and hide.
There was no hint of documentation of your view which makes it more credible than mine. I am tainted by the history of law enforcement which has investigated, infiltrated, and over incarcerated every Black leader and organization ever. Now that was true when Democrats or Republicans were in power but the organizations have always skewed right.
I recognize the right wing media is full of attacks on the FBI and that bight be all you ever see. Likewise, there is no source I can provide you that you will accept. The majority of individuals currently under attack are Republican appointees. I’ll give you some food for thought, perhaps you’ll at least read it? When I hear FBI I think COINTELPRO and the group that investigates Black Identity Extremists and ignores right wing militias.
https://www.salon.com/2018/04/21/liberal-america-the-fbi-is-not-your-friend-and-never-has-been/
You need better facts. Such statements don’t make you sound like you know what you are talking about.
Enigma, white Supremacists can be leftists or anarchists. In general, conservatives are peaceful and aren’t running around the nation rioting as we saw with Antifa and BLM. Conservatives aren’t the ones killing people, while those supporting leftists are and they are the ones that wish to defund the police.
NAZIs and skinheads can be on the left as well. Rarely are they conservatives or libertarians.
To be accurate many White Supremacists, Black Supremacists, NAZIs, and skinheads should not even be thought of as part of either side, though those doing the most killing come from leftist communities.
” though those doing the most killing come from leftist communities.”
That is so far from the truth.
https://www.newsweek.com/far-right-militias-greatest-threat-national-security-1562060
When we look at the cities with most of the killing we note that most of them are run and have been run by the left for years. Think of Chicago, Detroit, and Baltimore. Do you wish to disagree?
What criteria are you using now? You were talking about something else entirely.
Here is one of the quotes “” though those doing the most killing come from leftist communities.”
Did you ever think that you should learn to check your data before pressing the SEND button?
Jonathan wrote, “It is the widespread fear of conservative students who have faced faculties with overwhelmingly liberal viewpoints and growing intolerance on virtually every campus.”
What they are in justifiable fear of is pure persecution in a very literal sense.
Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs. Persistent annoyance or harassment.
If you observe persecution call it what it is, ignoring it enables it and it will bankrupt your moral character.
Is it really fear or just a lack of courage to speak up with their views?
The point of being able to express an alternative point of view is to be able to do so despite the consequences. Yes there will be pushback, ridicule, even hostility. But what Turley seems to forget is that that IS part of the responsibility that comes with expressing one’s views. It’s not guaranteed that those around you will accept them or agree and criticism or pushback will always be there.
Conservatives seem to have turned into snowflakes. Ben Shapiro at least is not shy about expressing his controversial views. He KNOWS he will be ridiculed or be attacked for them and so does Peter Jordan. What Turley should be asking is why aren’t conservatives taught to accept the fact that opposing views will not always be accepted or agreed on and criticism comes with the practice of expressing them. Yes some pushback will be forceful or overwhelming and that is NORMAL.
It’s difficult to express a controversial view. If there is fear of being able to express it to a crowd that od hostile to those views that is on the conservatives. Not the crowd. Peter Jordan has demonstrated that and that’s why he’s famous for it. Teach conservative students to be more courageous.
My wife has a sign in her office that says “Tact is a superhuman power I do not have”. I would say for both of us speaking our minds and to hell with how anyone feels about it is something we have always done. Sometimes it has served us, sometime not, but I have always thought any view worth having is worth expressing.
The persecutions and suppressive actions are taken by School Administrations to eliminate thought with which they disagree. You argue that Conservative students should be taught to expect abuse and violence when they express their views to Liberals. That is the classic argument of the abuser.
M W wrote, “You [Svelaz] argue that Conservative students should be taught to expect abuse and violence when they express their views to Liberals. That is the classic argument of the abuser.”
What Svelaz and others like Svelaz ignore is that the “progressives” are not simply pushing back, ridiculing, or spewing hostility, these social justice warriors are engaging in the same kind of persecution that brown-shirt fascists engaged in in 1930’s Germany. It’s pure social persecution with actual and implied threats of violence that’s supported by real actions that are meant to destroy lives. This tyrannical part of the social justice cancel culture literally tries to destroy the lives of anyone that opposes their points of view; this is exactly how totalitarian terrorists behave. The threat is there, the threat is real; agree with the hive mind or be silent and anyone that openly disagrees with the hive mind will be destroyed, this is as un American, anti-liberty and anti-free speech as it can get.
We all know that choices have consequences and exercising free speech also has consequences; however, the kind of illiberal, anti-liberty, anti-American behaviors exhibited by social justice warriors on college campus are immoral and people like Svelaz will unethically and immorally rationalize it until pigs fly.
Witherspoon,
Persecution? Only whiny snowflaky conservatives cry “persecution when they are subjected to criticism they characterize in the most dire way possible. As if they are some kind of victim. It’s reminiscent of Christians crying “persecution” for being called out on their hypocrisy.
Enigma correctly pointed out that this is just conservatives being whiny because they are being treated like they treated everyone else for years. The new experience of being in the position of expressing a view as a minority in a school seems to be an uncomfortable and unfamiliar territory. Like I said before, they just need to learn to grow a pair and recognize that they have to recognize that there are consequences to being able to express an opposing view. You certainly recognize it. But those whiny conservative students definitely don’t.
This should be a lesson to everyone participating here, this comment from Svelaz is a classic example of what internet trolls do…
Svelaz the troll wrote, “Persecution? Only whiny snowflaky conservatives cry “persecution when they are subjected to criticism they characterize in the most dire way possible. As if they are some kind of victim. It’s reminiscent of Christians crying “persecution” for being called out on their hypocrisy.”
That’s multi-layered Salem Witch Trial School of Thought that didn’t contradict anything I wrote and as expected, pure ad hominem trolling.
Salem Witch Trial School of Thought: are underlying thoughts and bias of a person that causes them to throw out all logical reasoning and conclude the absurd.
Ad Hominem: directed against a person(s) rather than the position they are maintaining.
Trolling: Posting inflammatory, extraneous messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, often for their own amusement.
Svelaz the troll also wrote, “Enigma correctly pointed out that this is just conservatives being whiny because they are being treated like they treated everyone else for years. The new experience of being in the position of expressing a view as a minority in a school seems to be an uncomfortable and unfamiliar territory.”
That’s some mighty fine Progressive Magical Thinking.
Progressive Magical Thinking: is thinking that if a “progressive” can find something (anything) in print, digital, or video that agrees with them, then it’s considered absolute fact.
Steve Witherspoon: Although I have not been a guest to this site as long as many of you, I have nonetheless noticed an exacerbated and more pronounced hostility/vitriol/name-calling/condescension coming from Svelaz, Natacha, and their alter-ego anonymi as of late. Perhaps it is because people like you are challenging them/calling them out more. I do gain insight from many of your comments, thanks.
Lin, “ I have nonetheless noticed an exacerbated and more pronounced hostility/vitriol/name-calling/condescension coming from Svelaz, Natacha, and their alter-ego anonymi as of late.”
Odd that you haven’t noticed that S. Meyer, (anonymous), Witherspoon, Hullbobby, and the rest are very prolific in name calling, hostility, and vitriol. Witherspoon calling me a troll, S. Meyer calling others “anonymous the stupid” and constantly name calling others when he can’t make a good argument or when he’s called out.
I don’t call others names unless I’m insulted first.
When Witherspoon is challenged he’s the first to start on the name calling by referring those who he can’t make a decent argument against “trolls” or “leftists”.
Can you note any name calling I’ve made on this thread on anyone? Maybe you shouldn’t be judging others before making unsubstantiated accusations.
Svelaz wrote, “When Witherspoon is challenged he’s the first to start on the name calling by referring those who he can’t make a decent argument against “trolls” or “leftists”.”
I think you’re trying to falsely besmirch my character but heck I’m a man with integrity and I’ll give you a fair opportunity to try to prove your claim.
1. Provide evidence to support your claim that I am the first to start the name calling.
Please note that in this sub thread, Svelaz is literally the one that started name calling with the August 30, 2022 at 9:29 AM comment containing “Conservatives seem to have turned into snowflakes” as the first sentence in the third paragraph and the August 30, 2022 at 11:29 AM comment containing “whiny snowflaky conservatives” in the first paragraph was posted. Svelaz seems to have a serious problem with hypocrisy as in the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform.
I just proved Svelaz has a blatantly obvious double standard in regards to calling others names. Svelaz is showing signs of being a hypocrite.
2. Provide evidence to support your claim that I can’t make decent arguments against those I call trolls.
Please notice how I used actual facts to support my argument about the behavior exhibited by Svelaz and “his” apparent hypocrisy, I’d call that a decent argument against someone I call a troll. Now let’s see if Svelaz can muster up any real facts to support “his” claims.
Please Note: I keep a searchable digital copy of absolutely every comment I post on this blog and the comment(s) I am replying to complete with a link to the actual comment(s), I will be double checking anything you choose to provide as evidence.
Have at it Svelaz.
Witherspoon,
“1. Provide evidence to support your claim that I am the first to start the name calling.”
Ok, let’s get into the facts of this discussion then,
Your first post was at 9:09 am starting with,
“Jonathan wrote, “It is the widespread fear of conservative students who have faced faculties with overwhelmingly liberal viewpoints and growing intolerance on virtually every campus.”
What they are in justifiable fear of is pure persecution in a very literal sense.
Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs. Persistent annoyance or harassment.
If you observe persecution call it what it is, ignoring it enables it and it will bankrupt your moral character.”
My post responding to you was referring to what conservatives have been calling liberals for a long time, “snowflakes”. My inclusion of the term was purely rhetorical. My second post at 9:29am was the same, a rhetorical response to the general idea of what conservative students were exhibiting. Whiny behavior which is descriptive, not name calling.
Your next post at 12:18 pm was the first instance of name calling when you personally referred me as a Troll. “Svelaz the troll wrote, “Persecution? Only whiny snowflaky conservatives cry “persecution when they are subjected to criticism they characterize in the most dire way possible. As if they are some kind of victim. It’s reminiscent of Christians crying “persecution” for being called out on their hypocrisy.” That post included two references to me being a “troll”. It was direct name calling. You were the first to engage in it.
” Provide evidence to support your claim that I can’t make decent arguments against those I call trolls.”
You’re first “arguments” were not about the issue. They were personal attacks using “definitions” of terms that you wanted to use to make a point that was irrelevant to what my questions posed and instead of making an argument on the topic you avoided it by calling me out as a “troll” which is simply an excuse to not defend your argument. You avoid real discussions to real queries by trotting out the “troll” excuse. You haven’t made any argument defending or rebutting the questions I posed to you.
svelaz wrote, “My inclusion of the term was purely rhetorical.”
I call BS. Snowflake as used in context is literally a noun, you were name calling, period. You’re a liar and transparently so.
We’re done in this thread.
Svelaz wrote, “When Witherspoon is challenged he’s the first to start on the name calling by referring those who he can’t make a decent argument against “trolls” or “leftists”.”
Furthermore; I knew there was something else wrong with your claim above. I rarely ever use the word “leftist”, so I checked this particular claim of yours myself and here is what I found.
I have only used the word “leftist” twice in the entire time I have commented here, that’s many hundreds of comments in exactly 231 blog threads. I quoted other commenters that used the word twice. So in total, the word “leftist” has only appeared in four of my comments and it was only used by me twice and neither usage by me is as you described in your claim.
Here’s the evidence…
So the actual facts show that I have never called individuals here a leftist, your claim is so blatantly false that I’m willing to call it a lie.
“So the actual facts show that I have never called individuals here a leftist, your claim is so blatantly false that I’m willing to call it a lie.”
You just showed us you did. You group individuals into a broad category clearly insinuating that those you argue with are “leftist”. That is further supported when you make such statements as (paraphrasing), “that is why you leftists…” such and such. Witherspoon you use the term “the left”, “leftists”, all the time when complaining about…the left.
It’s all about the “left” now instead of the old fashioned “liberals” before Trump became president. “Leftists”, is the new “liberal”.
That’s extrapolations to absurdity.
That’s about as close to pure gaslighting lies as we’ll ever see in these threads.
We’re done in this thread.
Witherspoon runs away when he can’t refute.
“svelaz wrote, “My inclusion of the term was purely rhetorical.”
I call BS. Snowflake as used in context is literally a noun, you were name calling, period. You’re a liar and transparently so.
We’re done in this thread.”
svelaz wrote, “Witherspoon runs away when he can’t refute.”
That was pure ad hominem trolling.
This should also be a lesson on understanding Witherspoon’s posts.
He engages infantastical exaggerations of what the “left” does. Which is more of an expression of his unhealthy biases against anything regarding the “left”.
He’s an excellent example of what Turley’s column “tries” to portray as some sort of coordinated “persecution” of conservatives because of their views. It’s more of what enigma correctly described as just being whiny about not being courageous and enough to express their views because they may be…yelled at or worse…ridiculed. Or as Witherspoon likes to characterize it, as downright tyranny and oppression equivalent to the nazi regime.
Witherspoon’s reactions to criticism or analyses of his views by the few “leftists” here are immediately dismissed as the work of “trolls”, because it’s easier than discussions that involve uncomfortable or inconvenient flaws in his arguments or views.
More cluelessness.
This is not about whiny conservatives.
It is about the destructive nature of censorship.
It does not matter who is being censored, it does not matter whether it is public or private censorship.
The results are harmful to all of us.
I would strongly recomend that you read JS. Mills’ “On Liberty” the most powerful defense of free speech ever made.
If you can not cope with victorian language, heterodox academy “translated” it to modern english.
https://heterodoxacademy.org/library/all-minus-one/
Regardless, let me make this clear – when you engage in censorship – you harm yourself.
That should be self evident today. Most of us now understand that the government response to Covid was disasterous.
Silencing dissenting voices harmed us ALL.
When we are right – it is the arguments to those dissenting that makes that clear – not so much our own.
When we are wrong – it is the arguments of those dissenting that helps us to recognize failure – BEFORE the harm is too great.
When you silence dissent it is not so much “whinny republicans” that you are harming as YOURSELF – and often everyone else.
As noted above – it is pretty much indisputable at this point that our public response to Covid was disasterous.
We did little or no good in thwarting the disease, and we did great harm to the rest of our lives.
We are in the midst of a disasterous economy right now – that is a direct result of our idiotic response to covid.
Inflation, slow growth, jobs problems. supply chain issues are all directly the result of bad covid policies.
While the left, the media and institutions did not completely succeed in silencing disenting voices. at the very least they succeeded with a significant portion of the population in getting them labeled as kooks and preventin large numbers of people from even hearing out what they said.
All to the countries great loss. The best we can say is that most of the rest of the developed world did little better.
But everyone did not do badly.
We can fight as an example about whether Sweden (or florida) did better with the direct impacts of Covid.,
The data indicates that to a small extent they did better than most of the rest of th country.
But not to any significant degree.
What there is no argument over is the 2nd and third order effects – where the most draconian responses FAILED horribly and the lest did well.
Neither Sweden nor Florida closed in person schools – their kids unlike most of the west did not lose a years or two of e,ducation.
These places are not seeing the same economic damage, the same drug problems, the same job losses, the same business
My point is NOT about Covid, it is about the fact that having less information – even wrong information, makes us worse off not better.
“More cluelessness.
This is not about whiny conservatives.
It is about the destructive nature of censorship.”
This has nothing to do with censorship. Those conservatives are complaining about having to “self censor” because they are worried about the reactions or opposition to the views they wish to express. This has to do with conservative students who are using the excuse of “violent opposition” or “censorship because they are conservative” because they can’t muster the courage to speak up for themselves REGARDLESS of the opposition or criticism. Essentially what this is is nobody is teaching these conservative students how to grow a pair and be assertive enough to express their controversial views without worrying about being bombarded with “opposing views” and scary criticism. The rest of your post just devolves into an irrelevant tangent about covid policy that doesn’t address the basic point that these conservative students are “self censoring” because they don’t have the courage to speak up and make their views known regardless of the consequences. That is the true nature of the responsibility of exercising free speech. Let’s remember that it was conservatives who once ridiculed liberals because they needed “safe spaces” to express their views. Now we have Turley bemoaning the tragedy that these poor conservative students have to endure the very same ridicule and are too cowardly to assert their views without the assurance of a “safe space”.
I’m sure you would agree that they should be doing what Peter Jordan did which is the source of his fame. That he bravely made his controversial views known within a group of people who vehemently disagreed or had harsh criticism of his positions. Here you have some conservative students whining about not being able to express their views without protection from harsh criticism and pushback from opposing views.
“Those conservatives are complaining about having to “self censor” because they are worried about the reactions or opposition to the views they wish to express. ” You lefties constantly believe you know what others think.
Anyone with the least awareness of reality would quickly grasp that there is a radically different response to the same censorship between the right and the left today.
Conservatives are not primarily complaining about self censoring – because they are not. They are complaining about institutional censorship – about twitter censoring them, about facebook censoring them, and about government driving that censorship.
It is those on the left who are self censoring, and the voices against self censorship are primarily on the left not the right.
Those on the right are not PRIMARLY self censoring – which is the entire purpose of wokeism and cancel culture to force people to self censor for fear of being called racist, hateful hating haters.
The left has jumped the shark on that. Increasingly those on the right are used to the bat schiff crazy invectives hurled by left wing nuts.
The primary victims of wokeism today are on the left. Not the right. Follow the news. With rare exceptions it is not right wing professors that are getting forced out, it is not right wing people in pretty much any venue that are being forced out.
It is those on the left insufficiently perfectly adhering to the woke nonsense of the day.
Increasingly those on the right are targeting institutional censorship – such as that of Facebook and Twitter.
The right is not angry about being shamed. The right is angry about being silenced.
Increasingly those on the right are fighting to assure that their voices will be heard.
Increasingly they are fighting because it is self evident that left wing nut censorship is influencing the outcome of elections, and getting us bad public policies. That it is a major factor in Bad public policies for covid.
“This has to do with conservative students who are using the excuse of “violent opposition” or “censorship because they are conservative” because they can’t muster the courage to speak up for themselves REGARDLESS of the opposition or criticism.”
This is a ludicrously stupid argument.
If you are prepared to use violence to silence the views of others – YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.
“Essentially what this is is nobody is teaching these conservative students how to grow a pair and be assertive enough to express their controversial views without worrying about being bombarded with “opposing views” and scary criticism. ”
Are you in the real world ? There are plenty of actual conservatives that have not merely risked violence, but been violently attacked for speaking things the left does not wish spoken.
Andy Ngo has been hospitalized multiple times merely for reporting on Antifa.
When Milo Yanopolis tried to speak at Berkley they burned the building down to stop him.
Charles Murray was assualted – as was professors and administrators that tried to protect him from violence.
All over the country those on the left engage constantly in violence to silence those they do not like.
I would commend anyone who faces violence to speak. regardlessor what they say. But today the violence is from the left.
It is morally wrong, and it is criminal.
No one should ever have to grow a big enough pair to risk violent physical assault in order to speak.
Anyone who is “self censoring” to avoid violence is the victim of CRIMINALS.
“The rest of your post just devolves into an irrelevant tangent about covid policy”
My post is not about covid policy. It is about how censorship resulted in BAD covid policy.
It is about the very real cost of censorship. Whether you like it or not silencing the views you do not like frequently results in real harms in the real world.
Covid policy is just a current large relevant example of how censorship can go wrong.
The entirety of our current economic mess – inflation, recession, supply chain issues. is all the consequence of bad covid policy here and globally.
Had government done absolutely nothing about covid – our death rates would be the same or lower, we would be past Covid by now, and we would have atleast a 2.5% growth economy, with low inflation, our kids would not have lost 2 years of schooling, which will harm us for generations. In the unlikely event Biden still got elected, he would be in the midst of a strong economy not a tanking one.
Censorship – driven by government, the media, social media, interfered with the public debate, interfered with hearing the voices that have subsequently proven right.
Censoship inarguably made us worse of. It killed people, it harmed all of us.
Even if the impact of divergent views was not immediate – even if we initially went forward with the same bad policies – it is certain that we would have changed course sooner.
“Let’s remember that it was conservatives who once ridiculed liberals because they needed “safe spaces” to express their views”
You really are clueless.
Safe spaces are left driven spaces to HIDE from views you do not wish to hear.
US campuses have been free speech zones for the left since the 70’s and still are.
There is no speech too radical to far left to get censored or face violence on the left today or for the past 40 years.
“Now we have Turley bemoaning the tragedy that these poor conservative students have to endure the very same ridicule and are too cowardly to assert their views without the assurance of a “safe space”.”
What is being asked, what is being demanded is what our law requires. That ANYONE regardless of what they wish to say can not be silenced by force from those who do not wish OTHERS to hear.
If your values and beleifs have merit, they do not need force to protect them from those who disagree.
I assume you mean jordan peterson ?
Even Jordan Peterson rarely if ever appears on campuses in the US anymore.
It is not safe for any speaker to the left of Mao to speak on many US college campuses.
“Enigma correctly pointed out that this is just conservatives being whiny because they are being treated like they treated everyone else for years.”
Irrelevant and moraly wrong.
If as you are claiming conservatives are now being treated as “everyone else” was for years.
Those of you on the left claimed that treatment was immoral.
If it was immoral then – it is immoral now.
One of my great disappointments is that the minorities and others discriminated against in the past
have behaved as badly or worse than those who discriminated against them in the past.
An Eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind.
“The new experience of being in the position of expressing a view as a minority in a school seems to be an uncomfortable and unfamiliar territory.”
Who cares ?
Your feelings do not matter, their feelings do not matter. Moral conduct actually does.
Worse still bad conduct – conduct that harms you and everyone else – whether you think it is moral or not causes damage to us all – regardless of feelings.
“Like I said before, they just need to learn to grow a pair”
They are learning exactly that, and they are coming for you.
“and recognize that they have to recognize that there are consequences to being able to express an opposing view.”
Censorship is not consequences it is self harm.
I would further note that this whole argument is stupid.
While it is certainly true that Left wing nut censorship altered the outcome of the election – harming us all.
Generally, left wing nut censorship harms those on the left far more then the right.
It also targets those on the left far more than the right.
Do you think that most on the right give a schiff whether you call them racist, deplorable or semi-fascist ?
Grow a pair yourself. I do not know anyone on the right who is cowering because they might be called a racist or a fascist.
The people most afraid of being called racists or fascists, are those on the left, who are not completely lockstep with their nutbar overlords.
Those on the right are not cowering – they are coming for YOU.
For now through the law, through the constitution, through the market, through elections.
But if you continue to corrupt our institutions – then they will come for you – i suggest you “bring guns”, your going to need them.
“Enigma correctly pointed out that this is just conservatives being whiny because they are being treated like they treated everyone else for years.”
Irrelevant and moraly wrong.
If as you are claiming conservatives are now being treated as “everyone else” was for years.
Those of you on the left claimed that treatment was immoral.
If it was immoral then – it is immoral now.”
That’s the point. The difference is that it is now those conservative students who are experiencing the same treatment that they saw nothing wrong with that are now whining about how wrong it is when THEY are subject to it. This is why it IS relevant. They are realizing that it is immoral only because it is affecting them personally. They didn’t have that sentiment when it was affecting others.
” The difference is that it is now those conservative students who are experiencing the same treatment that they saw nothing wrong with that are now whining about how wrong it is when THEY are subject to it. This is why it IS relevant. They are realizing that it is immoral only because it is affecting them personally. They didn’t have that sentiment when it was affecting others.”
Where have you been living for the past century ?
When is it that speakers from the left faced violence on us campuses for speaking ? Ever ?
As always you are not in the real world.
“As I said before, they just need to learn to grow a pair”
They are learning exactly that, and they are coming for you.”
No, they are not. They are whining about their inability to express their views and they are “self-censoring” because they can’t grow a pair. It’s pretty simple.
“Do you think that most on the right give a schiff whether you call them racist, deplorable, or semi-fascist ?”
These whiny conservative students do obviously.
“Grow a pair yourself. I do not know anyone on the right who is cowering because they might be called a racist or a fascist.”
Turley does know a lot of them it seems. Enough to pen a column about it.
“The people most afraid of being called racists or fascists, are those on the left, who are not completely lockstep with their nutbar overlords.”
Not according to these whiny conservative students and those on the right constantly complaining about being called racists and fascists.
“Those on the right are not cowering – they are coming for YOU.”
They are certainly being very whiny about it. They are wanting a “safe space” like everyone on the right is clamoring for.
“But if you continue to corrupt our institutions – then they will come for you – I suggest you “bring guns”, your going to need them.”
That is if they can’t stop whining first. My guess is they will complain more than act. Only the crazy righties in the militias are the ones who will be a concern.
“While it is certainly true that Left-wing nut censorship altered the outcome of the election – harming us all.”
That is legal censorship. Just like in Truth Social, Twitter, and Facebook. The right loves its censorship as well.
““As I said before, they just need to learn to grow a pair”
They are learning exactly that, and they are coming for you.”
No, they are not. They are whining about their inability to express their views and they are “self-censoring” because they can’t grow a pair. It’s pretty simple.”
It is pretty simple – conservatives are coming for you. They are going to take YOUR power from you.
They are not whining, they are on the offensive.
The law is incredibly strongly on their side – particularly on college campuses.
“They are certainly being very whiny about it. They are wanting a “safe space” like everyone on the right is clamoring for.”
No one on the right is clamoring for a “safe space” – you do not seem to know what a “safe space” is.
Safe Spacve is a left wing nut concept that fragile left wing nuts who think they are actually harmed by the speech of others can hide in a “safe space” when conservative speakers say something that they do not like, so they retreat to the “safe space”.
Conservatives want their constitutional right to speak at ANY public forum on campus.
“That is if they can’t stop whining first. My guess is they will complain more than act. Only the crazy righties in the militias are the ones who will be a concern.”
You are correct – the right is going to be very patient, violence will be a last resort.
But if you keep this nonsense up – eventually you will face violence.
“That is legal censorship. Just like in Truth Social, Twitter, and Facebook. The right loves its censorship as well.”
We spent years listening to the left rant that Russians “intefered” in the 2016 election – purportedly by engaging in free speech.
Now you wish to argue that it is morally acceptable for the media, the social media, and GOVERNMENT to engage in censorship to alter the outcome of an election.
Lest you are ignorant, we now have MULTIPLE instances in which Social Media has Censored people at the direction of govenrment.
That is ILLEGAL and unconstitutional.
Truth Social, Parlor, Rumble, Odesyee and several other platforms do not engage in political censorship.
They engage in very little censorship – mostly spam removal, child porn.
Can you cite an actual example in which those on the right have engaged in actual censorship of politics (or anything) regarding adults.
“Henry Rearden : If you believe you may seize my property simply because you need it, well then, so does any burglar. The only difference is a burglar doesn’t ask my permission.
Judge Beckston : Sir, I will remind you the punishment this court might impose on you is severe.
Henry Rearden : Go ahead. Impose it. If you sentence me to jail, send armed men to get me. I will not volunteer to go. If you fine me, you’ll have to seize my assets. I will not volunteer to pay. If you feel you have the right to use force against me, then show it for what it is… bring guns.
Judge Beckston : Sir, we have no intention of pointing guns and seizing your property.
Henry Rearden : Then why are we here?
Judge Glesie : Mr. Rearden, you are misrepresenting the letter and the intent of the Fair Share Law. It is based on the highest principle, the principle of the public good.
Henry Rearden : As defined by those who would dictate and regulate our behavior in our homes and our businesses, stealing their power from our liberty.
Judge Glesie : Mr. Rearden, you wouldn’t want it misunderstood that you work for nothing but your own profit?
Henry Rearden : Indeed. I want it understood clearly. I do not recognize the good of others as a justification for my existence. If their fair share demands that I get nothing for my labors, that it requires me to be a victim, then I say… public good be damned. I’ll have no part of it.
Judge Beckston : And how does that benefit your fellow man?
Henry Rearden : I do not owe you an answer, but I could tell you in a hundred ways. Thousands of jobs, billions in revenue, fueling our economy despite your efforts to destroy the very foundation of our existence. And I believe most of my fellow men would say the same if they had a voice.
“ You argue that Conservative students should be taught to expect abuse and violence when they express their views to Liberals. That is the classic argument of the abuser.”
No, that’s not what I said. Conservative students should be taught to grow a pair. Which obviously they are lacking if they are whining about self censoring.
Wasn’t it conservatives who labeled liberals “snowflakes” because they had their “feelings” hurt? Looks like conservatives students are being a bunch of snowflakes themselves.
“ If you observe persecution call it what it is, ignoring it enables it and it will bankrupt your moral character.”
Interesting, so the right is persecuting the LGBTQ community thru law and censorship. From forbidding discussing their lifestyles to infringing on their medical decisions.
Why aren’t you calling out the right for persecuting the LGBTQ?
Persecution: hostility and ill treatment of that group certainly fits the definition.
Svelaz wrote, “the right is persecuting the LGBTQ community thru law and censorship. From forbidding discussing their lifestyles to infringing on their medical decisions.”
What the heck are you talking about?
Is that just more of your usual trolling?
Witherspoon, pay attention. My post was in response to YOUR posts regarding you stating the definition of “persecution”.
“ It’s pure social persecution with actual and implied threats of violence that’s supported by real actions that are meant to destroy lives. This tyrannical part of the social justice cancel culture literally tries to destroy the lives of anyone that opposes their points of view; this is exactly how totalitarian terrorists behave. The threat is there, the threat is real; agree with the hive mind or be silent and anyone that openly disagrees with the hive mind will be destroyed, this is as un American, anti-liberty and anti-free speech as it can get.”
That’s from your post. Then from another one of your posts continuing the narrative about “prosecution” you posted,
“ If you observe persecution call it what it is, ignoring it enables it and it will bankrupt your moral character.”
That’s not trolling, that’s just you not paying attention. I posed a question to you when you made that statement.
“ Interesting, so the right is persecuting the LGBTQ community thru law and censorship. From forbidding discussing their lifestyles to infringing on their medical decisions.
Why aren’t you calling out the right for persecuting the LGBTQ?”
How about rephrasing the question? Shouldn’t the right be called out for persecuting the LGBTQ community?
It’s a sincere query. According to you is the right morally bankrupt because they are ignoring it?
You say the left is persecuting conservatives because of their views or expressing opposing views. Is the right just as guilty? Or are you so biased that it only applies to the left?
Svelaz wrote, “Witherspoon, pay attention.”
No you idiot, YOU pay attention.
I know exactly what your comment was in reply to and I asked a specific question about what you wrote in your reply and you have intentionally dodged that question like trolling political parrots usually do.
You made very specific claims that “the right is persecuting the LGBTQ community thru law and censorship. From forbidding discussing their lifestyles to infringing on their medical decisions.” as if these claims are well known facts. I’m not so sure they are actual facts, so I literally quoted what you wrote and then asked a question regarding that quote, “What the heck are you talking about?”
You can spout any nonsense you like but your statement sounds like typical parroting of an anti-conservative progressive propaganda narrative, so it’s time for you to actually explain yourself. What exactly were you talking about when you wrote “the right is persecuting the LGBTQ community thru law and censorship. From forbidding discussing their lifestyles to infringing on their medical decisions.”?
What Republican laws are persecuting the LGBTQ community?
What censorship is persecuting the LGBTQ community?
How is the right forbidding the LGBTQ community from discussing their lifestyles?
How is the right infringing on the medical decisions of the LGBTQ community?
Provide the specifics so I can understand what the heck you’re actually talking about.
JT, So what do you tell your conservative and libertarian students when they have questions like this? Please let us know. Thanks.
Gee, ya think? People engage in it in every walk of life. That is not a sign of a healthy society. I refuse, though I don’t believe in being rude (people are allowed to have different opinions. Imagine that), and as a result there are people in my circle that hang up on me on BOTH sides should I say the ‘wrong’ thing. We are SUCH great examples for our young people. 🙄
How long before students are simply pre-screened, and wrong think keeps non-radical students out of school all together, regardless of affiliation (for you see: there is no actual logic to insanity)? It would then trickle down to everything else, guaranteed.
The same is true in the workplace. It is tyranny and for the so called majority (the radicalized) who have no fear, it is mass formation, the foundation of totalitarianism that strips the human from their sanity and dignity. They become so base they would forsake or even hurt their brother, sister or best friend.
The antidote is knowledge, unvarnished truth and thinking for one’s self. That is why the radicals won’t tolerate honest debate and work diligently to warp reality and employ propaganda to demoralize their foes.
This is dangerous and can quickly escalate to even more danger.
What can be done? College is an indoctrination scam. The entire education system has been hijacked. Steer your kids to online learning or help them pursue some other trade. Honestly, I live in DC area and I self-censor. Neighbors send signals as to their political bent by way of flying the American flag out front of their house. Few believe a progressive or Democrat would fly the American flag. Freedom isn’t free. The solution is to grow a thicker skin, grow your courage, stand for something, speak up more, let a professor know when they have violated your freedom to hold your views without retritbution, then pursue it up the chain, and if need be, withdraw from that school. Do not let them get away with it. Do not continue paying the exhorbitant tuition to be silenced and retaliated against. Then get involved in local politics and run for office.
Simple answer ? Why don’t these students band together and form their own classes, bring their own professors to their classes. Make the classes interesting so others would want to join. Students have to bond, have their own mind set. Seek out side help with people who are conservatives. In Numbers there’s Strength.
anolesman,
We are beginning to see that with the formation of The University of Austin or UATX where students and faculty value free speech.
As wokeism continues to infest other college and universities, cranking out indoctrinated non-critical thinking students with useless degrees, there will be a growing need for higher education universities that focus on a real education. Corporations will quietly ask for them as they get job applicants who cannot do the job but sure are woke.
Those applicants resumes will get placed on the “No,” pile. It is not surprising to see more than a few college grads, stocking shelves or slinging coffee, still, as their wokeism degree amounts to nothing in the real world.
“ We are beginning to see that with the formation of The University of Austin or UATX where students and faculty value free speech.”
So that would include conservatives tolerating “wokism”, right? Because so far, especially in Florida, “woke” ideas are being censored and those who are expressing those views are being “persecuted” by the state thru their governor.
Why isn’t Turley criticizing the right’s persecution of those expressing their “woke” views?
I would be tolerant of “wokeism” if they present their ideals in a calm manner and open to a civil debate on campus.
However, that is not what we are seeing, as the professor has pointed out numerous times. What we get is people shouting down debates. Others tearing up conservative signs, disrupting conservative rallies, and even violence.
The woke idea of teaching children they are the oppressed or are oppressors based off skin color is teaching hate and division. That is wrong.
The woke idea of teaching children to question their sexuality at an inappropriate age, where they cannot even comprehend sex, they still believe in Santa Claus, is wrong. To do so, is grooming.
That is what Florida and the governor is trying to do: Protect the children from that kind of hate, division and groomers.
I’ve been self censoring all my adult life. More of a professional thing, since I spent my life in sales,(I never admitted that until I retired.)
but I learned to ask questions rather than make statements. For me its the socratic method, all the way down. I dont tell a leftist they are wrong, or I have a better idea. I ask them a question that forces them to logically defend a position. Like, ‘where does the president have the constitutional power to hand out $1 trillion?’
This president doesn’t have the power, He takes it and becomes the power. Reminds me of a person in Germany who did the same.
Iowan, I am not in sales like you, but I think everyone has to sell themselves at one time or another. You like the Socratic method, which is excellent. I used blunt honesty. It turned some people off, but it turned on the right people. Later those of value who were turned off returned because they needed and wanted the truth.
Probably why I would have never succeeded in that field. I am simply incapable of schmoozing or kissing ass to bring about a more favorable outcome. If I think you are stupid, deluded, misguided, or outright insane I have no problem telling you so. If that offends you, you are probably someone I would rather not associate with anyways.
For every door that closes, another opens up.
I am simply incapable of schmoozing or kissing ass to bring about a more favorable outcome
If that is what you believe salesmanship means, you would starve.
Sales is about meeting needs. There is a great book out there called “The Art of the Deal” . Lots of stuff discussed but most is just truisms. The “art” part of deal is for both parties thinking they got the better part of any transaction. That is exactly what a good salesman does.
An old salesman told me the rule is people buy what they want, not what they need.
No, I understand that, but there is a certain amount of compliment and ego stroking that goes along with that. I don’t mean that in a negative way. My wife is the recruiting end of our recruiting business. In a sense, that is a type of sales, since she is “selling” a new job to a candidate. I know I would be incapable of that simply because if I deal with someone I view as an idiot, I can’t not tell them I think so. Probably not the best way to successfully complete a transaction. It’s why she knows better than to let me anywhere near a phone during negotiations.
iowan2 asked, “Like, ‘where does the president have the constitutional power to hand out $1 trillion?’ “
The Democrats know full well that actually having the Constitutional Presidential power is irrelevant if one steps up and actually stops the abuse of power in a court of law.
Never forget that President Biden knowingly and openly violated the Constitution, and publicly stated as much, when he ordered the the Secretary of Labor, acting through the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, to ram a unconstitutional nation-wide COVID vaccination mandate down the throat of businesses and their employees. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled against this flagrant abuse of power and President Biden knew it would. President Biden’s order was an intentional anti-Constitutional act by President Biden and his administration and they all knew full well it was unconstitutional. President Biden literally and willingly chose to violate his oath of office, he knew full well he was violating his oath of office, he knew full well his order was unconstitutional and therefore it was not legal, he knew full well that the order was an actual impeachable offense and he knew full well that he would be protected from impeachment by the Democratic Party leadership in Congress. What happened to the President and those that intentionally and illegally violated the Constitution and their oaths of office, not a damn thing happened to them. The Democratic Party leadership in Washington DC did exactly what President Biden knew they would do (apparently there was collusion to violate the Constitution) and immorally rationalized this anti-Constitutional order, they publicly smeared the Supreme Court for ruling against the vaccine mandate and did absolutely nothing to the President for his impeachable offense.
That iowan2 is how the Democratic Party in Washington DC operates now. They ram their agenda even when they know full well it violates the Constitution; they view the Constitution is a barrier preventing their totalitarian hive-minded agenda and they will do everything they can to push their agenda even if that means completely destroying the Supreme Court.
I left out a word…
The Democrats know full well that actually having the Constitutional Presidential power is irrelevant if no one steps up and actually stops the abuse of power in a court of law.
because they KNOW the socialist FASCISTS will try to destroy them!
Welcome to Germany 1930’s
Time for the Republicans to start DEFUNDING these organizations….50% cut in fed spending….ZERO Fed Aid for Colleges. IF the education is worth it…then they will find the money!
Republicans need to start fighting against the Civil War Democrats are fighting…Again!
Those students have now learned about the evil that has overtaken the left. This is the most valuable lesson they can get.
Ideally, college prepares a student for life in the real world . . . Welcome to the “real” world kids!