The Internet has erupted over another reposting by former president Donald Trump. Trump reposted a supporter’s “fantasy” of executing a citizen’s arrest of Judge Arthur Engoron and New York Attorney General Letitia James. It was described as a fantasy but it remains a dangerous (and uninformed) suggestion that some could easily take seriously. That is particularly the case after the reckless attacks of Trump on critics as “vermin” and pledging to go after them if reelected.
A Trump supporter posted:
MY FANTASY 👇😁
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE LITITIA JAMES AND JUDGE ENGORON PLACED UNDER CITIZENS ARREST FOR BLATANT ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND HARASSMENT.
Trump reposted the statement.
Just in case anyone is taking such a statement as more than a fantasy, there is no basis for a citizen’s arrest and such an effort to physically hold either the judge or the attorney general would most certainly constitute a criminal act.
Citizen arrests have been recognized since Medieval times when citizens had not just a right but a duty to to respond to a “hue and cry” of others identifying a criminal and seeking help. Indeed, the Statute of Winchester states that citizens should “follow them with all the town and the towns near, with hue and cry from town to town until that they be taken and delivered to the sheriff.”
The right still exists for any felonies (or certain misdemeanors committed in the presence of the citizen). For example, under California’s Section 837:
A private person may arrest another:
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For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
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When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
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When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
Neither of these individuals have committed such an offense. I have been critical of Attorney General James for this case and her running on a pledge to bag Trump if elected. I have also criticized this New York law. However, it is the law of the state and there does appear to be over-valued properties. The effort to bar Trump from business in New York and impose hundreds of millions in damages is excessive, but it is not a crime.
Without such a privilege, an attempt to arrest would likely constitute battery as well as other crimes under New York law.
This year, the New York Senate again moved to eliminate citizen’s arrest in the state.
Once again, this was a statement of a fantasy that was reposted. However, it is part of an escalation of rhetoric by Trump. I have long criticized the former president for such rhetoric. It obviously appeals to many, but others are likely repelled by the pitch of a type of revenge term to hunt down “vermin.”
There is obviously rage on both sides and personal attacks (including President Biden reportedly calling one of his critics a “pr**k” this week and attacking Trump supporters as enemies of the Republic). Both parties are seeking to enrage their supporters while denouncing the other party as fueling rage.
These leaders are throwing matches at a tinderbox and people of good faith need to call out these leaders for such inflammatory rhetoric.
Orange Lives Matter (OLM)
There is no harm. The AG has created a case without a “HARMED” Party. This is fraud a felony; thus, a “Citizen’s Arrest” can happen.
Judges and Attorneys do not want US to use our Superior power to check their Rogue Judicial power.
Read the following and let it sink in. Attorneys put the Court before Client!!!
Corpus Juris Secundum (C.J.S.) legal encyclopedia, volume 7, section 4:
§ 4 ATTORNEY & CLIENT 7 C.J.S.
“His first duty is to the courts and the public, not to the clients, and wherever the duties to his client conflict with those he owes as an officer of the court in the administration of justice, the former must yield to the latter.
The office of attorney is indispensable to the administration of justice and is intimate and peculiar in its relation to, and vital to the wellbeing of, the court. An attorney has a duty to aid the court in seeing that actions and proceedings in which he is engaged as counsel are conducted in a dignified and orderly manner, free from passion and personal animosities, and that all causes brought to an issue are tried and decided on their merits only; to aid the court…”
Is that lawful law or is it a tackit agreement?
“[T]he reckless attacks of Trump on critics as ‘vermin’ . . .” (JT)
I completely understand the nature and danger of this “age of rage.” But “vermin” is “reckless?”
It’s a great metaphor for those who are like insects destroying crops. Only they destroy Western civilization.
What are you supposed to call them: Slightly misguided folks who are not so nice?
Democrats have moved far beyond fantasy: Hyper-politicized state and federal prosecutors can – and actually do – arrest their most feared opponent on bogus, politicized charges.
“It was described as a fantasy but it remains a dangerous (and uninformed) suggestion . . .” (JT)
A unicorn is a fantasy. It is *not* a “suggestion” to implant a horn on your forehead.
The actual ‘big lie’ is state govt can keep Trump off the ballots.
Judges keep telling these idiot Dems they lack the constitutional power to do what they want to do. Fanni Willis should jump on this big lie and throw people in jail.
State Judge James Robert Redford wrote that courts don’t have the authority to determine whether someone is eligible to run for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. In addition, Redford ruled that Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson (D) does not have the authority under state law to remove candidates from the ballot based on that provision.”
Raw milk5 ckancq24 Bigly. Azan
Did Elon Musk have another child?
I don’t know, fantasies about either is pretty messed up. Doesn’t matter what one is fantasizing about. Now Gal Gadot is fantasy material.
I could o’ bet my eye teef we all coulda ‘rested em back in the good ol’ days!
” I have also criticized this New York law.” I must have missed that report.
“However, it is the law of the state and there does appear to be over-valued properties. The effort to bar Trump from business in New York and impose hundreds of millions in damages is excessive, but it is not a crime.”
Yes, “it is the law” – will you kindly elaborate on what makes this particular law “just” in the State of NY, Professor? Tax assessment value is determined by the county where the property is located, so what exactly makes the State of NY or it’s Courts an authority (or worse, THE authority) for determining LOAN VALUES a bank offers businesses and residents? What precipitated or caused the law to be created at all? It sure seems likes the law itself could be constitutionally challenged on the basis the state has no inherent, protective interest at play *before* the parties involved enter a contract. (Yes, the state should provide a means for any party to recover ‘damages’ for loans not paid back on agreed terms, but that didn’t happen in the case before the Court now.)
How many others have been charged with this crime *after* the loans were repaid? Sure looks like a law in search of a crime.
U r rite .. he signed under the penalty of perjury. A 6 month misdear meanor. At most. But the industry lobbies the law. And they got the law — not we the people law– they got it to read how it reads : and that’s a shame bc it can be applied arbitrarily. Like here. To any target. But fraud requires intent. A 2 step process. And it requires damages. A victim. What they do is just apply their arbitrary law selectively. To interrupt a campaign. That’s obvious.
And they should be federally charged by the feds for election interference … but that won’t happen their “insurance policy” is any and all . Belt this is war. Shev. Outright.
The criteria for valid law is not merely that it is just, but that it is not overly vauge or overly broad or punishes conduct that is not actually harmful,
or that it does not violate constitutional rights.
SCOTUS has already ruled that laws that empower government to confiscate property absent a compelling need are unconstitutional takings.
Have they ruled Civil Asset Forfeiture illegal yet? Those policies appear to clearly violate the 4th amendment and need to go, or at least be severely reformed.
“He also had evidence before him to ascertain that he committed fraud. “
You made a statement Svelaz. Let’s hear the evidence and debate the evidence before you deflect to another subject.
@Seth,
Here’s the interesting thing…
James ask for summary judgement on the point of fraud.
The judge granted it.
Trump can easily appeal that. The problem is that he has to wait until the whole case is over.
Its clear that the judge will find Trump guilty of everything else and exact the greatest toll against him.
There is already enough in public eye to show how this was politically motivated and completely biased.
It will end up going to SCOTUS.
Not to defend Svelaz… but the fact that the judge made his summary judgement … until its overturned… Trump committed fraud. Its moot.
(Which will get overturned on appeal. )
-G
Our court system doesn’t function if the members of the court refuse to abide by the law. The left is doing what they accused some southern districts of doing before the civil rights laws were passed.
Thank you for your comment. As far as the SC hearing the case and overturning it, that is the reason I asked Svelaz to debate the evidence and the decision. This wrong decision is something Svelaz cannot defend. The Rule of Law ceased to exist here and elsewhere.
Much has been said about Trump’s use of the term “vermin” Years ago I would have unconditionally condemned such language. No more. HRC can use terms like “baskets of deplorables ” and promote deprogramming of MAGA supporters with impunity. Leftists use terms like “nazis” and white supremist all the time and delegitimize and dehumanize conservative’s across the board. In my view the use of the term vermin as it relates to totalitarians thugs on the left who seek to destroy the foundations of American culture and democracy is not inappropriate and is proportional to the rhetoric of the progressive left.
Lawyer Ellis Confirms Insurrection
An attorney for Donald Trump has told prosecutors in Georgia that one of the former president’s top aides told her in December 2020 that Trump was “not going to leave” the White House “under any circumstances”, despite having lost the election to Joe Biden.
Ellis said the longtime Trump aide – his deputy chief of staff, Dan Scavino – told her “the boss” would refuse to cede power.
Ellis described Scavino’s response to her scepticism that Trump had any more legal avenues left to challenge his election loss, saying: “And he said to me, you know, in a kind of excited tone: ‘Well, we don’t care, and we’re not going to leave.’”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/14/ex-trump-lawyer-says-boss-was-not-going-to-leave-white-house
………………………………….
Since January 6th, Professor Turley has maintained the siege on the Capitol was just a boisterous demonstration. But here, lawyer Jenna Ellis confirms that Trump had no intention of ceding power.
= INADMISSIBLE HEARSAY.
ALSO, EVEN IF A CRAZY ACTIVIST JUDGE ALLOWED THIS CHERRY-PICKED STATEMENT, THIS WITNESS IS EASILY IMPEACHED VIA A TWEET SHE SENT OUT DAYS LATER CALLING FOR TRUMP TO “NEVER CONCEDE!” She has made many such statements, including even Tweeting that she is mad at Trump because he would not fund her Defense.
Finally, you seem not at all concerned with the leaking of protected Testimony by the DA’s office. Why is that?
– We all see you carrying water for the Election-Denying, Election-Interfering, Constitution-Stomping, Hamas Supporters on the Left. 👀
But he did leave. Actions, not words, matter.
But Trump did leave, didn’t he? Or is it now a crime to say something and not do it in the case of President Trump and only President Trump? People like you are scumbags and I hope someday your arrogance is repaid tenfold.
Whatever Ellis claims, Trump left right on schedule after a peaceful transfer of power. Your babbling is irrelevant.
Prof. Turley
While I would absolutely positively advise Trump supporters NOT to do this,
Your own argument FAILS.
Using the same broad and vague standards of what constituties a crime or a fellony – a long list of public officials HAVE committed crimes and fellonies.
Turn about is fair play.
We MUST return to the “rule of law” – where we do not manufacture crimes from nebulous claims based on political actions of others that we do not like.
Either the COURTS at all levels MUST end this nonsense, or the alternative is that one way or the other the people WILL
Turn about is fair play.
I would further sugest reading the declaration of independence.
“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ”
I would note that the Declaration of indepence is Meta Law.
Or put differently – though you are wrong regarding your legal analysis – accep0ting the very standards left wing nuts are using to go after Trump.
Either those standards are bogus and the Trump cases should be thrown out.
Or they are valid and citizens arrests are ALSO valid.
But the minutia of the law is not the issue. The american revolution ESTABLISHES that when a government is sufficiently abusive of the rights of the citizens for sufficiently long and sufficiently egregiously , that citizens may act illegally with violence to remove that government.
I would note that MUST logically be the case or there is no means to escape tyranny.
We would all prefer that repressive regimes failed peacefully. We are required to have great patience before resorting to violence.
We are not entitled to burn down target because some Black man passing counterfeit bills died of an overdose for eating his own stash.
That said the growing drumbeat of revenge talk is both important and dangerous.
It is a message to the courts and to the left.
STOP the lawlessness or their will be consequences.
It is dangerous – because FOR NOW those upset about the lawlessness of those on the left in power should be patient and long suffering.
It is dangerous because speaking the truth is sometimes dangerous.
“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”
Turley is also wrong on the law here; it’s legal to perform a Citizen’s Arrest in NY, currently.
Let’s take a moment to recognize what a bald-faced liar Sammy is. Not once did Trump say “kidnap.” But in Sammy’s twisted, perverted, corrupt Leftist cretinesque “mind” a “citizens arrest” means kidnap.
Not sure of what you mean when you say some properties are overvalued
It is impossible to place a value on most of these properties. The only true value is what someone is willing to pay.
I had a customer that owned a cabin on a lake in Michigan. He went up there maybe 10 times a year. it had 2 bedrooms and 42 ft of shore line. A realtor always asked him to put a price on it. He finally did. So high no person would consider such a price for the shack. But yes they did, and he was forced to by an 8plex apartment to keep the tax collector at bay.
My point is, no bank would even consider the property for collateral. Mainly because the price is on either end of a wide spectrum. Thus unsuitable to lenders, undergoing yearly audits by bank examiners, to assure their liquidity, and safe guarding depositors.
With Trump, I am astounded know nothings in the world of commercial real estate like James and Engoron are judging things they cant even comprehend
It is nonsense like this that results in the citizens arrest assertions that Turley is railing about.
It is both far less lawless to citizens arrest James or Engron than the case itself.
Turn about is fair play.
This particular case is egregious.
The legal claims of James and Engron boil down to – if a business states anything anywhere that a prosecutor disagrees with – that constituttes Fraud.
If that is NY law – then that law is unconstitutionally broad.
Fraud requires an actual harm. There is no oen coming forward claiming they were harmed.
Nor can there be.
Lets Presume Trump says MAL is worth $1T and asks an insurance company to insure it for that.
The insurance company is free to decline.
or to do its own due dilligence – there is an entire industry that is brought in ALWAYS to provide not merely the apraqisal of a comercial property, but adress its maintainence, its future mantanace costs, its cashflow as a business, environmental concerns.
Try to sell a $400K apartment building anywhere near NYC and an ARMY of due diligence experts will descend on the property.
Regardless, the insurance company (or lender) can accept, refuse, revalue, whatever the please.
Lets assume that in some bizarre twist a mortage or insuarnce is agreed to for WAY over the properties value.
Trump would then be obligated to pay the insurance premium or mortgage on that inflated value.
So there is STILL no harm. Whether it is insurance or a mortgage – the property is collateral.
20 years ago I gould walk into my bank and borrow 400K on my signature – no questions asked and no collateral.
Trump can likely borrow $400M with no colateral.
Regardless, even for mortgages where there is colateral – Should Trump default and the bank take posession of the property – not only can they sell it to recoup the balamnce of the mortgage – they are free to go after Trump personally.
If Trump borrows $1B he owes $1B with interest. There is not some – the bank gets to take MAL and Trump is off the hook provision.
It is highly unlikely that mortgage companies will go after ordinary borrowers for the unpaid balance.
But the will absolutely go aftert the unpaid balance from the wealthy.
As to Insurance – that is even less of an issue.
The reality is the property is NOT security in insurance. It is merely the subject of the bet.
If Trump insures MAL for $1T – he is placing a bet with the insurance company for $1t that something bad will happen to MAL in which case the insurance company will owe him $1T.
The insurance company is conversely betting that nothing bad will happen and they collect the insurance premiums as their payoff.
There is virtually no differences at all between gambling and insurance.
Lloyds will insure dancers legs for enormous amounts. Or singers voices.
The size of he bet is negotiated by the gambler and the house.
Put simply there is not only no fraud here – there is no possibility of fraud.
Turley strongly charges people NOT to do a citizens arrest.
But by his analysis a citizens arrest of James or Engron has MORE merit than the actions of James and Engron.
They are engages in S1984 absuse of government power under color of law to deprive another of their civil rights.
S1984 CAN be a felony.
S1984 has been used for many purposes. By the federal govenrment – it is how the Rodney King officers were prosecuted.
Turley misses the FACT that there really is a legitimate basis for Trump supporters to engage in the same tactics that Trump’s oponents are using.
When prosecutors and the courts make the law so broad, so elastic to cover anything.
Then the law is so broad to elesatic that it covers the actions of those who seek “vengance” on them – using the law as a tool.
My GUESS is that Trump is sending a loud message to the courts – and to democrats.
STOP THE BS, or “Turn About is Fair play”
If the courts wish to stop Trump using the law to seek vengence against his political oponents,
the best way to do that is to restore the rule of law. Apply the law NAROWLY in conformance with the rquirements of the constitution and the rights of those you are targeting.
That requires throwing all of this nonsense out.
But it also prevents Trump from seeking the revenge eh will otherwise be entitled to should the courts continue to allow this nonsense.
My view is that this is a legal strategy, more than anything.
It is a message to the courts that if they color outside the lines to
“get Trump”, they will be forced to accept Trump doing the same as president.
What the heck is wrong with the right or republicans or whatever you people are ?
The turnabout any Republican including Trump will do is nothing like what these demoncrats pull.
What the pathetic republicans will possibly eventually do though it is highly unlikely, is actually hold the various demoncrats responsible for obvious law breaking they definitely participated in.
It won’t be done with digging into hundred year old unused dusty legalisms twisted and contorted in some outrageous new manner, as that won’t be anywhere near necessary.
We can’t even dream of a scenario where “your people” aka the right or the republicans or the trump magas do unto the dems what they have been doing to Trump, all his lawyers, all the J6 people, and all the rest of anyone ever seen wearing a MAGA hat or supporting Trump in any way.
It’s not in the blood, it’s not in the thought processes, and it certainly is not in the bravery egg they purportedly have ben saving up for some occasion.
What will and what has been happening is the right and the repubs and the magas will overlook and let slide every single obvious crime the demoncrats and their minions engage in and maybe complain a bit in a weak manner without the proper language. If they have ’em dead to rights in Congress we will get a halfway decent tongue thrashing and that will be the end of it. That’s how this nation has gotten this far into the hellhole it is now becoming. Pretty much total surrender.
Matt Gaetz took a stand and for instance Shawn Hannity had a total blowout attacking conniption fit as did near every other public figure of the MSM “on the far right”. We KNOW what the general neocon republican is made of – a wet noodle that already was soaked for days and run thought the garbage disposal and fell out of the discharge pipe on the way to the treatment plant.
Let’s take a moment to note that the head of the de facto Republican party, former president, and likely presidential nominee, is encouraging people to kidnap a federal judge and prosecutor. And the Republican establishment is just fine with this.
Sammy isn’t he in good company with Sen Schummer?
Of course mobs threatening in front of SCOTUS homes is exactly what this Nation encourages. Just ask AG Garland.
“Vermin” is what the Koran calls Jews.
When a person blatantly violates another’s civil and constitutional rights for political purposes, as in this case, “vermin” seems to be a rather mild epithet compared to the word I would use. Wise up and stop with the pablum.
Craig,
I won’t stop. It’s not insignificant given the escalation of pro-Palestinian protesters here in America and around the world. Trump is a master at using language to get followers. He could have used that word intentionally to get those protesters on his side.
False. But, understandably, you are repeating the lies of the Criminal Leaders of Arab nations, so all you know are the lies they tell you. They are simply holding up a miror to themselves when they use terms like that to desccribe others; a form a projection.
The Koran discusses Moses many more times than it does Mohammed. And it describes the original Torah revealed to Moses as giving light and guidance, and demands the respecting of the rights of all people, including Jews.
Incidentally, how many times do you think the Koran mentions Israel, which was the original homeland of the Jews before Islam existed?
Answer: Zero. And Mohammed said that the Koran never mentioned Jerusalem as a holy city. He added, “It’s in the Muslim consciousness that the land first belonged to the Jews.”
LOL The Canaanites, forgotten again in a convenient lie.
Shakti: Are you Canaanite? If you are, there is a good chance genetic studies will reveal you came from the East, displacing other people. Do you realize the Canaanites lived in the Levant, not just the tiny area known as Israel?
Have you taken note of the pictures showing Hamas terrorists locating their weapons in the hospitals and below? Did you note the weapons in the children’s playrooms? Who would have thought Hamas would have used children as a shield for terrorists who hide in the tunnels?
I don’t care what you think of Trump. I personally am not a fan; I grew up with him doing everything he did before 2016, my entire life, but some of his policies as POTUS were very good, extremely good, and what has been done to him by the democratic party and their levers is unconscionable to the Nth degree in a supposedly free society. People that vote for dems are basically voting for an America version of Hamas, or the CCP, or the USSR in 2023, and their voters are indeed that asleep and stupid. The thing that scares me is that many of them are perfectly fine with that knowledge; in fact, it is what they actively *want*. Bring it on. 🙄
I will tell you this, too: my wife, who is a teacher, and some of you will know I’ve stated some of this before, but her current students in the 7th grade have no idea what happened on 9/11, let alone WWII. Forget it. They could not tell you who Hitler was, other than some kind of nebulous, Thanos-like, bad guy, and who knows what was involved in that conflict, to them. A perfect slate to pepper with whatever one decides to give them, however false. Understand that this means no one at home ever discussed these things with them (i.e. parents). Parents. Parents, parents, parents. Your kids do not show up at university ripe for indoctrination without a lack on the other side, and my wife and I have seen this plenty on both the left and right; it is a generational failure, and we need to be accountable. Republicans are just as stupid with their kids in the 21st century as anyone at home, their kids could also not pass an eighth grade exam from 30 years ago. I am not on the side of social engineering at all, but gen x parents are probably the worst the world has ever seen in these particular terms, making boomers look like Phds in the parenting realm, and they sure weren’t. And that is us going forward. Naturally, they are being born and bred to believe everyone who disagrees with them must be Thanos in that scenario, simply by virtue of being coddled, and that always leans in one direction only, critical thinking need not be a consideration.
Eventually there will be no one left to teach the teachers, or the parents. And this is where we are. That many in the generation of gen x, who would be their parents, seem to believe similarly against reason or reality, almost makes our Constitutional process seem moot if one is a sightless stooge that forgot why this country exists in the first place.
I am so grateful we talk about these things here everyday, I am so grateful to the Professor and his team, and to the extent that the global thugs seem to notice and thus try to interfere – perhaps all hope is not lost just yet. But we are close, folks. 😐 Very close. If the world capitulates, then yes, the world will end, and it won’t be because it was hot and dry one summer out of a million in California or Sydney.
Sorry for the blog length comment, but some of this isn’t that confusing, and no one wants to step up and take responsibility. And it will only get worse until enough of us do exactly that.
From what I see, Republicans are far better informed and knowledgeable about history and current events than any Democrat. It amazes me how absolutely ignorant some of my Democratic friends are. They just mouth talking points and are unable to thoughtfully debate an issue.
“Overview of Florida Taxes
At a 0.80% average effective property tax rate, property taxes in Florida rank below the national average, which currently stands at 0.99%. ”
So close to one percent on average, Maralago paid almost 600k last time around. About .12 percent (at 500M sale), or one tenth of one percent of sale value. One could say one eighth but we’re rounding.
So this is THE SCANDAL all the dim bulbs in America, which is nearly everyone, can’t seem to figure out. Congratulations to all of you for being so stupid.
CITIZEN’s ARREST IS CURRENTLY LEGAL IN NEW YORK, & FORBES JUST CALLED OUT TURLEY FOR BEING WRONG HERE:
“ New York’s law for citizen’s arrest allows any person to arrest another person if they’ve committed a felony, or “for any offense” when the offender has committed the crime in the presence of the person carrying out the arrest. The state Senate passed a bill to abolish the citizen’s arrest statute earlier this year, calling it a “dangerous and historically abused practice,” but the legislation has not made it through the state Assembly. Law professor Jonathan Turley, who’s been critical of James in the past, wrote Tuesday in response to Trump’s reposting that “there is no basis for a citizen’s arrest and such an effort to physically hold either the judge or the attorney general would most certainly constitute a criminal act.”
See Forbes Website for Article quoted here.