The Internet has erupted over another reposting by former president Donald Trump. Trump reposted a supporter’s “fantasy” of executing a citizen’s arrest of Judge Arthur Engoron and New York Attorney General Letitia James. It was described as a fantasy but it remains a dangerous (and uninformed) suggestion that some could easily take seriously. That is particularly the case after the reckless attacks of Trump on critics as “vermin” and pledging to go after them if reelected.
A Trump supporter posted:
MY FANTASY 👇😁
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE LITITIA JAMES AND JUDGE ENGORON PLACED UNDER CITIZENS ARREST FOR BLATANT ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND HARASSMENT.
Trump reposted the statement.
Just in case anyone is taking such a statement as more than a fantasy, there is no basis for a citizen’s arrest and such an effort to physically hold either the judge or the attorney general would most certainly constitute a criminal act.
Citizen arrests have been recognized since Medieval times when citizens had not just a right but a duty to to respond to a “hue and cry” of others identifying a criminal and seeking help. Indeed, the Statute of Winchester states that citizens should “follow them with all the town and the towns near, with hue and cry from town to town until that they be taken and delivered to the sheriff.”
The right still exists for any felonies (or certain misdemeanors committed in the presence of the citizen). For example, under California’s Section 837:
A private person may arrest another:
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For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
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When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
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When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
Neither of these individuals have committed such an offense. I have been critical of Attorney General James for this case and her running on a pledge to bag Trump if elected. I have also criticized this New York law. However, it is the law of the state and there does appear to be over-valued properties. The effort to bar Trump from business in New York and impose hundreds of millions in damages is excessive, but it is not a crime.
Without such a privilege, an attempt to arrest would likely constitute battery as well as other crimes under New York law.
This year, the New York Senate again moved to eliminate citizen’s arrest in the state.
Once again, this was a statement of a fantasy that was reposted. However, it is part of an escalation of rhetoric by Trump. I have long criticized the former president for such rhetoric. It obviously appeals to many, but others are likely repelled by the pitch of a type of revenge term to hunt down “vermin.”
There is obviously rage on both sides and personal attacks (including President Biden reportedly calling one of his critics a “pr**k” this week and attacking Trump supporters as enemies of the Republic). Both parties are seeking to enrage their supporters while denouncing the other party as fueling rage.
These leaders are throwing matches at a tinderbox and people of good faith need to call out these leaders for such inflammatory rhetoric.
“It was described as a fantasy but it remains a dangerous (and uninformed) suggestion . . .” (JT)
A unicorn is a fantasy. It is *not* a “suggestion” to implant a horn on your forehead.
Someone once had a fantasy about assassinating President Bush and they made a movie of this fantasy of theirs.
Holds up bloody severed head…
The actual ‘big lie’ is state govt can keep Trump off the ballots.
Judges keep telling these idiot Dems they lack the constitutional power to do what they want to do. Fanni Willis should jump on this big lie and throw people in jail.
State Judge James Robert Redford wrote that courts don’t have the authority to determine whether someone is eligible to run for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. In addition, Redford ruled that Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson (D) does not have the authority under state law to remove candidates from the ballot based on that provision.”
Raw milk5 ckancq24 Bigly. Azan
Did Elon Musk have another child?
I don’t know, fantasies about either is pretty messed up. Doesn’t matter what one is fantasizing about. Now Gal Gadot is fantasy material.
I could o’ bet my eye teef we all coulda ‘rested em back in the good ol’ days!
” I have also criticized this New York law.” I must have missed that report.
“However, it is the law of the state and there does appear to be over-valued properties. The effort to bar Trump from business in New York and impose hundreds of millions in damages is excessive, but it is not a crime.”
Yes, “it is the law” – will you kindly elaborate on what makes this particular law “just” in the State of NY, Professor? Tax assessment value is determined by the county where the property is located, so what exactly makes the State of NY or it’s Courts an authority (or worse, THE authority) for determining LOAN VALUES a bank offers businesses and residents? What precipitated or caused the law to be created at all? It sure seems likes the law itself could be constitutionally challenged on the basis the state has no inherent, protective interest at play *before* the parties involved enter a contract. (Yes, the state should provide a means for any party to recover ‘damages’ for loans not paid back on agreed terms, but that didn’t happen in the case before the Court now.)
How many others have been charged with this crime *after* the loans were repaid? Sure looks like a law in search of a crime.
U r rite .. he signed under the penalty of perjury. A 6 month misdear meanor. At most. But the industry lobbies the law. And they got the law — not we the people law– they got it to read how it reads : and that’s a shame bc it can be applied arbitrarily. Like here. To any target. But fraud requires intent. A 2 step process. And it requires damages. A victim. What they do is just apply their arbitrary law selectively. To interrupt a campaign. That’s obvious.
And they should be federally charged by the feds for election interference … but that won’t happen their “insurance policy” is any and all . Belt this is war. Shev. Outright.
The criteria for valid law is not merely that it is just, but that it is not overly vauge or overly broad or punishes conduct that is not actually harmful,
or that it does not violate constitutional rights.
SCOTUS has already ruled that laws that empower government to confiscate property absent a compelling need are unconstitutional takings.
Have they ruled Civil Asset Forfeiture illegal yet? Those policies appear to clearly violate the 4th amendment and need to go, or at least be severely reformed.
“He also had evidence before him to ascertain that he committed fraud. “
You made a statement Svelaz. Let’s hear the evidence and debate the evidence before you deflect to another subject.
@Seth,
Here’s the interesting thing…
James ask for summary judgement on the point of fraud.
The judge granted it.
Trump can easily appeal that. The problem is that he has to wait until the whole case is over.
Its clear that the judge will find Trump guilty of everything else and exact the greatest toll against him.
There is already enough in public eye to show how this was politically motivated and completely biased.
It will end up going to SCOTUS.
Not to defend Svelaz… but the fact that the judge made his summary judgement … until its overturned… Trump committed fraud. Its moot.
(Which will get overturned on appeal. )
-G
Our court system doesn’t function if the members of the court refuse to abide by the law. The left is doing what they accused some southern districts of doing before the civil rights laws were passed.
Thank you for your comment. As far as the SC hearing the case and overturning it, that is the reason I asked Svelaz to debate the evidence and the decision. This wrong decision is something Svelaz cannot defend. The Rule of Law ceased to exist here and elsewhere.
Much has been said about Trump’s use of the term “vermin” Years ago I would have unconditionally condemned such language. No more. HRC can use terms like “baskets of deplorables ” and promote deprogramming of MAGA supporters with impunity. Leftists use terms like “nazis” and white supremist all the time and delegitimize and dehumanize conservative’s across the board. In my view the use of the term vermin as it relates to totalitarians thugs on the left who seek to destroy the foundations of American culture and democracy is not inappropriate and is proportional to the rhetoric of the progressive left.
Lawyer Ellis Confirms Insurrection
An attorney for Donald Trump has told prosecutors in Georgia that one of the former president’s top aides told her in December 2020 that Trump was “not going to leave” the White House “under any circumstances”, despite having lost the election to Joe Biden.
Ellis said the longtime Trump aide – his deputy chief of staff, Dan Scavino – told her “the boss” would refuse to cede power.
Ellis described Scavino’s response to her scepticism that Trump had any more legal avenues left to challenge his election loss, saying: “And he said to me, you know, in a kind of excited tone: ‘Well, we don’t care, and we’re not going to leave.’”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/14/ex-trump-lawyer-says-boss-was-not-going-to-leave-white-house
………………………………….
Since January 6th, Professor Turley has maintained the siege on the Capitol was just a boisterous demonstration. But here, lawyer Jenna Ellis confirms that Trump had no intention of ceding power.
= INADMISSIBLE HEARSAY.
ALSO, EVEN IF A CRAZY ACTIVIST JUDGE ALLOWED THIS CHERRY-PICKED STATEMENT, THIS WITNESS IS EASILY IMPEACHED VIA A TWEET SHE SENT OUT DAYS LATER CALLING FOR TRUMP TO “NEVER CONCEDE!” She has made many such statements, including even Tweeting that she is mad at Trump because he would not fund her Defense.
Finally, you seem not at all concerned with the leaking of protected Testimony by the DA’s office. Why is that?
– We all see you carrying water for the Election-Denying, Election-Interfering, Constitution-Stomping, Hamas Supporters on the Left. 👀
But he did leave. Actions, not words, matter.
But Trump did leave, didn’t he? Or is it now a crime to say something and not do it in the case of President Trump and only President Trump? People like you are scumbags and I hope someday your arrogance is repaid tenfold.
Whatever Ellis claims, Trump left right on schedule after a peaceful transfer of power. Your babbling is irrelevant.
Prof. Turley
While I would absolutely positively advise Trump supporters NOT to do this,
Your own argument FAILS.
Using the same broad and vague standards of what constituties a crime or a fellony – a long list of public officials HAVE committed crimes and fellonies.
Turn about is fair play.
We MUST return to the “rule of law” – where we do not manufacture crimes from nebulous claims based on political actions of others that we do not like.
Either the COURTS at all levels MUST end this nonsense, or the alternative is that one way or the other the people WILL
Turn about is fair play.
I would further sugest reading the declaration of independence.
“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ”
I would note that the Declaration of indepence is Meta Law.
Or put differently – though you are wrong regarding your legal analysis – accep0ting the very standards left wing nuts are using to go after Trump.
Either those standards are bogus and the Trump cases should be thrown out.
Or they are valid and citizens arrests are ALSO valid.
But the minutia of the law is not the issue. The american revolution ESTABLISHES that when a government is sufficiently abusive of the rights of the citizens for sufficiently long and sufficiently egregiously , that citizens may act illegally with violence to remove that government.
I would note that MUST logically be the case or there is no means to escape tyranny.
We would all prefer that repressive regimes failed peacefully. We are required to have great patience before resorting to violence.
We are not entitled to burn down target because some Black man passing counterfeit bills died of an overdose for eating his own stash.
That said the growing drumbeat of revenge talk is both important and dangerous.
It is a message to the courts and to the left.
STOP the lawlessness or their will be consequences.
It is dangerous – because FOR NOW those upset about the lawlessness of those on the left in power should be patient and long suffering.
It is dangerous because speaking the truth is sometimes dangerous.
“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”
I was under the impression that you did not agree with the idea of “turnabout is fair play”. That it was not conductive to making any progress move forward. Because it would not help republicans either if they engaged in revenge and retribution politics.
Then you would be incorrect.
Turn about is fair play is a last resort against lawlessness.
My preference is for the courts to follow the law narrowly and constitutional rights broadly as the rule of law requires.
Read history – read the declaration of independence.
The use of violence to resolve conflicts is highly discouraged.
It is NOT however absolutely prohibited.
Violence is only justified – by egregious conduct.
This nation was born in violence in response to lawless authoritarianism.
Israel is at this moment engaged in massive legitimate violence in response to heinous acts of terrorism.
The left repeatedly tries to justify violence based on the acts of others.
They are legitimately permitted to argue that. There ARE circumstances where the conduct of others justifies Violence in response.
The US responded to pearl harbor by going to war.
We responded to 9/11 by violently forcing regime change in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I have NEVER claimed that Violence is never justified.
I am libertarian – I am not a pacifist. I do not try to sell Tolstoy’s non-resistance to evil.
I am absolutely NOT saying that “Turn about is fair play” is wrong.
Only – as our founders did, that violence is a last resort, to be pursued after all legitimate means have been followed.
I am EXPLICITLY saying – to YOU, To Turley, to those on the left, that – while we are not there YET.
YOUR violent and lawless conduct is approaching the point at which violence in response is justified.
Further – Turn about is fair play is NOT inherently a threat of Violence – unless YOU are engaged in Violence – Are you ?
It is however a threat that as YOU open the overton window for yourselves – you do so for your oponents.
As you bend fold, spindle and mutilate the law, you justify those you target doing the same to you.
It is a warning – conforming to the rule of law is all that assures YOU of the protections of the rule of law when you are not in power.
I have repeatedly said the rights of all of us are no greater than the rights of those we hate the most.
Let me be clearer – YOU are entitled to no better treatment from those you hate than they receive from you.
Respect my rights. respect the constitution. respect the ACTUAL law read narrowly.
If you can not do that, then you should not expect the same in return.
There is only ONE reason that anyone on the left should fear Trump’s threats of vengence.
And that would be because the standards YOU used to target your enemies would result in YOUR punishment if applied to you.
Next, We try to teach our children by modeling good conduct.
When that fails our children will only learn if they suffer the natural consequences of their actions.
I see only two ways in which the lawless and repugnant conduct of those of you on the left will come to an end.
The first if is our courts – left and right honor the rule of law and STOP you.
That is what I hope for.
The alternative is that you will learn when what you have done to others is done to you.
You have made it clear that you are unable to learn through Facts, logic, reason.
Finally, We are so far talking about consequences that Humans impose on other humans for misconduct.
But there are consequences beyond that.
The global instability, the increasing number and threats of war, are the consequences of YOU actions.
Republicans did not conspire with Putin to invade Ukraine. They did not conspire with Hamas to gleefully commit acts of terror against Israeli’s. Republicans did not conspire with Iran to destabilize the mideast.
These are all the direct or indirect consequences of YOUR many failures.
The state of the economy is the consequence of a long list of YOUR failures.
The people you call your enemies seek to Thwart your stupidity.
If all else fails. If the law fails, if the constitution fails, if human imposed consequences fail or are not possible,
The worst possible outcome – is NOT Trump taking vengence on you.
It is your having to live in the world you create.
Ultimately what the rest of us are fighting for is NOT to save you from yourselves.
It is only to save the rest of us from the consequences you seek to impose on all.
Turn about is fair play is not nearly the worst you should fear.
John Say,
Well said.
Turley is also wrong on the law here; it’s legal to perform a Citizen’s Arrest in NY, currently.
Let’s take a moment to recognize what a bald-faced liar Sammy is. Not once did Trump say “kidnap.” But in Sammy’s twisted, perverted, corrupt Leftist cretinesque “mind” a “citizens arrest” means kidnap.
Not sure of what you mean when you say some properties are overvalued
It is impossible to place a value on most of these properties. The only true value is what someone is willing to pay.
I had a customer that owned a cabin on a lake in Michigan. He went up there maybe 10 times a year. it had 2 bedrooms and 42 ft of shore line. A realtor always asked him to put a price on it. He finally did. So high no person would consider such a price for the shack. But yes they did, and he was forced to by an 8plex apartment to keep the tax collector at bay.
My point is, no bank would even consider the property for collateral. Mainly because the price is on either end of a wide spectrum. Thus unsuitable to lenders, undergoing yearly audits by bank examiners, to assure their liquidity, and safe guarding depositors.
With Trump, I am astounded know nothings in the world of commercial real estate like James and Engoron are judging things they cant even comprehend
It is nonsense like this that results in the citizens arrest assertions that Turley is railing about.
It is both far less lawless to citizens arrest James or Engron than the case itself.
Turn about is fair play.
This particular case is egregious.
The legal claims of James and Engron boil down to – if a business states anything anywhere that a prosecutor disagrees with – that constituttes Fraud.
If that is NY law – then that law is unconstitutionally broad.
Fraud requires an actual harm. There is no oen coming forward claiming they were harmed.
Nor can there be.
Lets Presume Trump says MAL is worth $1T and asks an insurance company to insure it for that.
The insurance company is free to decline.
or to do its own due dilligence – there is an entire industry that is brought in ALWAYS to provide not merely the apraqisal of a comercial property, but adress its maintainence, its future mantanace costs, its cashflow as a business, environmental concerns.
Try to sell a $400K apartment building anywhere near NYC and an ARMY of due diligence experts will descend on the property.
Regardless, the insurance company (or lender) can accept, refuse, revalue, whatever the please.
Lets assume that in some bizarre twist a mortage or insuarnce is agreed to for WAY over the properties value.
Trump would then be obligated to pay the insurance premium or mortgage on that inflated value.
So there is STILL no harm. Whether it is insurance or a mortgage – the property is collateral.
20 years ago I gould walk into my bank and borrow 400K on my signature – no questions asked and no collateral.
Trump can likely borrow $400M with no colateral.
Regardless, even for mortgages where there is colateral – Should Trump default and the bank take posession of the property – not only can they sell it to recoup the balamnce of the mortgage – they are free to go after Trump personally.
If Trump borrows $1B he owes $1B with interest. There is not some – the bank gets to take MAL and Trump is off the hook provision.
It is highly unlikely that mortgage companies will go after ordinary borrowers for the unpaid balance.
But the will absolutely go aftert the unpaid balance from the wealthy.
As to Insurance – that is even less of an issue.
The reality is the property is NOT security in insurance. It is merely the subject of the bet.
If Trump insures MAL for $1T – he is placing a bet with the insurance company for $1t that something bad will happen to MAL in which case the insurance company will owe him $1T.
The insurance company is conversely betting that nothing bad will happen and they collect the insurance premiums as their payoff.
There is virtually no differences at all between gambling and insurance.
Lloyds will insure dancers legs for enormous amounts. Or singers voices.
The size of he bet is negotiated by the gambler and the house.
Put simply there is not only no fraud here – there is no possibility of fraud.
Turley strongly charges people NOT to do a citizens arrest.
But by his analysis a citizens arrest of James or Engron has MORE merit than the actions of James and Engron.
They are engages in S1984 absuse of government power under color of law to deprive another of their civil rights.
S1984 CAN be a felony.
S1984 has been used for many purposes. By the federal govenrment – it is how the Rodney King officers were prosecuted.
Turley misses the FACT that there really is a legitimate basis for Trump supporters to engage in the same tactics that Trump’s oponents are using.
When prosecutors and the courts make the law so broad, so elastic to cover anything.
Then the law is so broad to elesatic that it covers the actions of those who seek “vengance” on them – using the law as a tool.
My GUESS is that Trump is sending a loud message to the courts – and to democrats.
STOP THE BS, or “Turn About is Fair play”
If the courts wish to stop Trump using the law to seek vengence against his political oponents,
the best way to do that is to restore the rule of law. Apply the law NAROWLY in conformance with the rquirements of the constitution and the rights of those you are targeting.
That requires throwing all of this nonsense out.
But it also prevents Trump from seeking the revenge eh will otherwise be entitled to should the courts continue to allow this nonsense.
My view is that this is a legal strategy, more than anything.
It is a message to the courts that if they color outside the lines to
“get Trump”, they will be forced to accept Trump doing the same as president.
What the heck is wrong with the right or republicans or whatever you people are ?
The turnabout any Republican including Trump will do is nothing like what these demoncrats pull.
What the pathetic republicans will possibly eventually do though it is highly unlikely, is actually hold the various demoncrats responsible for obvious law breaking they definitely participated in.
It won’t be done with digging into hundred year old unused dusty legalisms twisted and contorted in some outrageous new manner, as that won’t be anywhere near necessary.
We can’t even dream of a scenario where “your people” aka the right or the republicans or the trump magas do unto the dems what they have been doing to Trump, all his lawyers, all the J6 people, and all the rest of anyone ever seen wearing a MAGA hat or supporting Trump in any way.
It’s not in the blood, it’s not in the thought processes, and it certainly is not in the bravery egg they purportedly have ben saving up for some occasion.
What will and what has been happening is the right and the repubs and the magas will overlook and let slide every single obvious crime the demoncrats and their minions engage in and maybe complain a bit in a weak manner without the proper language. If they have ’em dead to rights in Congress we will get a halfway decent tongue thrashing and that will be the end of it. That’s how this nation has gotten this far into the hellhole it is now becoming. Pretty much total surrender.
Matt Gaetz took a stand and for instance Shawn Hannity had a total blowout attacking conniption fit as did near every other public figure of the MSM “on the far right”. We KNOW what the general neocon republican is made of – a wet noodle that already was soaked for days and run thought the garbage disposal and fell out of the discharge pipe on the way to the treatment plant.
Let’s take a moment to note that the head of the de facto Republican party, former president, and likely presidential nominee, is encouraging people to kidnap a federal judge and prosecutor. And the Republican establishment is just fine with this.
Sammy isn’t he in good company with Sen Schummer?
Of course mobs threatening in front of SCOTUS homes is exactly what this Nation encourages. Just ask AG Garland.
“Vermin” is what the Koran calls Jews.
When a person blatantly violates another’s civil and constitutional rights for political purposes, as in this case, “vermin” seems to be a rather mild epithet compared to the word I would use. Wise up and stop with the pablum.
Craig,
I won’t stop. It’s not insignificant given the escalation of pro-Palestinian protesters here in America and around the world. Trump is a master at using language to get followers. He could have used that word intentionally to get those protesters on his side.
False. But, understandably, you are repeating the lies of the Criminal Leaders of Arab nations, so all you know are the lies they tell you. They are simply holding up a miror to themselves when they use terms like that to desccribe others; a form a projection.
The Koran discusses Moses many more times than it does Mohammed. And it describes the original Torah revealed to Moses as giving light and guidance, and demands the respecting of the rights of all people, including Jews.
Incidentally, how many times do you think the Koran mentions Israel, which was the original homeland of the Jews before Islam existed?
Answer: Zero. And Mohammed said that the Koran never mentioned Jerusalem as a holy city. He added, “It’s in the Muslim consciousness that the land first belonged to the Jews.”
LOL The Canaanites, forgotten again in a convenient lie.
Shakti: Are you Canaanite? If you are, there is a good chance genetic studies will reveal you came from the East, displacing other people. Do you realize the Canaanites lived in the Levant, not just the tiny area known as Israel?
Have you taken note of the pictures showing Hamas terrorists locating their weapons in the hospitals and below? Did you note the weapons in the children’s playrooms? Who would have thought Hamas would have used children as a shield for terrorists who hide in the tunnels?
I don’t care what you think of Trump. I personally am not a fan; I grew up with him doing everything he did before 2016, my entire life, but some of his policies as POTUS were very good, extremely good, and what has been done to him by the democratic party and their levers is unconscionable to the Nth degree in a supposedly free society. People that vote for dems are basically voting for an America version of Hamas, or the CCP, or the USSR in 2023, and their voters are indeed that asleep and stupid. The thing that scares me is that many of them are perfectly fine with that knowledge; in fact, it is what they actively *want*. Bring it on. 🙄
I will tell you this, too: my wife, who is a teacher, and some of you will know I’ve stated some of this before, but her current students in the 7th grade have no idea what happened on 9/11, let alone WWII. Forget it. They could not tell you who Hitler was, other than some kind of nebulous, Thanos-like, bad guy, and who knows what was involved in that conflict, to them. A perfect slate to pepper with whatever one decides to give them, however false. Understand that this means no one at home ever discussed these things with them (i.e. parents). Parents. Parents, parents, parents. Your kids do not show up at university ripe for indoctrination without a lack on the other side, and my wife and I have seen this plenty on both the left and right; it is a generational failure, and we need to be accountable. Republicans are just as stupid with their kids in the 21st century as anyone at home, their kids could also not pass an eighth grade exam from 30 years ago. I am not on the side of social engineering at all, but gen x parents are probably the worst the world has ever seen in these particular terms, making boomers look like Phds in the parenting realm, and they sure weren’t. And that is us going forward. Naturally, they are being born and bred to believe everyone who disagrees with them must be Thanos in that scenario, simply by virtue of being coddled, and that always leans in one direction only, critical thinking need not be a consideration.
Eventually there will be no one left to teach the teachers, or the parents. And this is where we are. That many in the generation of gen x, who would be their parents, seem to believe similarly against reason or reality, almost makes our Constitutional process seem moot if one is a sightless stooge that forgot why this country exists in the first place.
I am so grateful we talk about these things here everyday, I am so grateful to the Professor and his team, and to the extent that the global thugs seem to notice and thus try to interfere – perhaps all hope is not lost just yet. But we are close, folks. 😐 Very close. If the world capitulates, then yes, the world will end, and it won’t be because it was hot and dry one summer out of a million in California or Sydney.
Sorry for the blog length comment, but some of this isn’t that confusing, and no one wants to step up and take responsibility. And it will only get worse until enough of us do exactly that.
From what I see, Republicans are far better informed and knowledgeable about history and current events than any Democrat. It amazes me how absolutely ignorant some of my Democratic friends are. They just mouth talking points and are unable to thoughtfully debate an issue.
“Overview of Florida Taxes
At a 0.80% average effective property tax rate, property taxes in Florida rank below the national average, which currently stands at 0.99%. ”
So close to one percent on average, Maralago paid almost 600k last time around. About .12 percent (at 500M sale), or one tenth of one percent of sale value. One could say one eighth but we’re rounding.
So this is THE SCANDAL all the dim bulbs in America, which is nearly everyone, can’t seem to figure out. Congratulations to all of you for being so stupid.
CITIZEN’s ARREST IS CURRENTLY LEGAL IN NEW YORK, & FORBES JUST CALLED OUT TURLEY FOR BEING WRONG HERE:
“ New York’s law for citizen’s arrest allows any person to arrest another person if they’ve committed a felony, or “for any offense” when the offender has committed the crime in the presence of the person carrying out the arrest. The state Senate passed a bill to abolish the citizen’s arrest statute earlier this year, calling it a “dangerous and historically abused practice,” but the legislation has not made it through the state Assembly. Law professor Jonathan Turley, who’s been critical of James in the past, wrote Tuesday in response to Trump’s reposting that “there is no basis for a citizen’s arrest and such an effort to physically hold either the judge or the attorney general would most certainly constitute a criminal act.”
See Forbes Website for Article quoted here.
No actually Mr. Turley, people need to call out Letitia James and Judge Engoron for criminal behavior which is what this is. Your pseudo nonpartisanship is getting as old as it is transparent.
Call them out, certainly. Assault and kidnap, though?
Anonymous-Cretin: Show me where Trump said the words “assault” and “kidnap”?
Okay, I know you can’t do that, but I just wanted to get your lies out of the way. By the way, do you ever tell the truth, even by accident?
When discussing James and Engoron, however, as David DePape put it . . .
If I had a hammer
I’d hammer in the morning
I’d hammer in the evening
All over this land
I’d hammer out danger
I’d hammer out a warning
I’d hammer out love between
My brothers and my sisters, ah-ah
All over this land
What’s criminal about it? That they are enforcing the law or that they are following it?
If the Secret Service had their way, they would discharge their weapons at trolls as a warning shot to desist from posting copy/pasta talking points.
TURLEY IS WRONG HERE & FORBES JIST CALLED HIM OUT FOR IT:
“ New York’s law for citizen’s arrest allows any person to arrest another person if they’ve committed a felony, or “for any offense” when the offender has committed the crime in the presence of the person carrying out the arrest. The state Senate passed a bill to abolish the citizen’s arrest statute earlier this year, calling it a “dangerous and historically abused practice,” but the legislation has not made it through the state Assembly. Law professor Jonathan Turley, who’s been critical of James in the past, wrote Tuesday in response to Trump’s reposting that “there is no basis for a citizen’s arrest and such an effort to physically hold either the judge or the attorney general would most certainly constitute a criminal act.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/11/14/trump-shares-suggestion-for-ny-judge-and-attorney-general-to-face-citizens-arrest-latest-attack-during-fraud-trial/?sh=176dedb67de3
Turley is not wrong. What he was saying is that there is no basis for a citizens arrest of James or Engoron. Because they have not committed any crimes. That is what he means when he says “there’s no basis for a citizen’s arrest”. He’s not saying it’s illegal to make an arrest. That’s the distinction.
Because if anyone attempts to arrest them using citizen’s arrest the arresting person will have to prove or show exactly what crime did they commit. If they fail to prove anything the person who arrested the judge or prosecutor will be criminally liable and face prison time.
All Turley is trying to say is that it’s not advisable to attempt to arrest them at all. Don’t do it. It’s stupid.
Valuation of properties, in this regard I differ from Professor Turley’s quote “…and there does appear to be over-valued properties…” how can you as an individual ascertain valuation of the Trump’s organization. The statement is nothing more than an assumption without foundation or comparative analysis. As an example, valuation of holdings in Florida, there are similar properties with exponentially higher valuations. With just a back of the envelope check of properties for sale in area I found a 10,000 sq ft house in Boca Raton on +/- ½ acre for $44.9 million. The courts in NY have valued Mar-A-Largo at [? $16.9 million?], who’s kidding who.
On to NY and other properties, valuations are subjective in nature until there is a sale, example I might desire to sell my property I own in Tim Buck Two at $10 and have it listed, if there is a down market I may only get $9 or less, but if there is a seller’s market I may encounter a bidding war and get $11 or more even though I only listed the property for $10. As for valuation to obtain a loan there isn’t any lender foolish enough to loan their asset (money) without substantial proof of claimed worth or ability to pay. That in my opinion is the slippery sloop the courts are in, subjective valuations of assets that both the lenders and borrowers agreed too without a default.
All good points, George! Real property is not fungible.
Correctimundo. The rules for preparing Trump’s personal financial statements require that assets, including real estate, be listed at the price that they “could be sold” for.
Therefore, if the legal team of James and Engoron (and they are a legal team) actually followed the law, they would have to prove that Trump’s assets could not be sold at the amounts he stated on his personal financial statements. But James-Engoron failed to do that at any point in time and have merely proposed knowingly false “alternative valuations.”
For example, as you suggest, the James-Engoron legal team acutally asserted that Mar-a-Lago is “valued” at its “assessed value.” But anyone who knows anything about real estate knows that assessed value is a mere fraction of market value. It would not be unusual for exclusive real estate like Mar-a-Lago to sell at substantial double-digit multiples of the property’s assessed value. The James-Engoron legal team are bald-faced-liars.
Assessed value is less than real value when it comes to fat rich pig properties, not the general public.
For the general public properties are assessed at equal or slightly higher rates than their sale value.
The big scandal isn’t Trump’s valuation or the corrupt freak called a judge, it is the lack of taxes paid by the big fat rich pigs on their properties yearly.
It may be true that taxes levied at actual sale value would be too high for the market to support the high prices in sales, but that of course is the very reason for the discrepancy. So the big fat pigs can juggle around their excesses between each other and keep most of it in the process.
Everyone dances around the truth and babbles, endlessly. It’s so pathetic.
I pay about 4% property tax yearly.
For MaraLago 4 percent of half a billion is 20 million in yearly property taxes.
2023 Mar-a-Lago generated a property tax obligation of 600 thousand.
That is about one tenth of one percent per year, or ONE FORTIETH OF WHAT THE AVERAGE PERSON PAYS.
So this is the reason there exists the big discrepancy to begin with. The big rich fat cats aren’t going to pay like the little people, PERIOD.
Assessed value is less than real value when it comes to fat rich pig properties, not the general public.
For the general public properties are assessed at equal or slightly higher rates than their sale value.
Shakdi, property taxes in California are assessed at 1% of the purchase price with a cap of 2% annual increase. When I purchased my home, the assessed value was $160k below the appraised value. Good to know I qualify as a fat rich pig property. 🤣
Keep laughing, you’re in the mid of the pool, the more expensive the homes get the further out of bounds the fat rich pigism becomes.
This isn’t up for debate, this is HOW IT WORKS.
You don’t qualify for fat pig, keep trying to up yourself and laugh, though. In Maralago’s case, 500M vs 17M is a thirty to one valuation difference.
So your home I would guess is a 300k – 750k area, so you probably didn’t even get 2 to 1 reduction, let alone 30 to 1 or more. If it’s higher than 750k then your reduction was even less.
Charts show California averages .76 percent per year property tax. So you might be very close to that average.
I will keep laughing. And I will not lose one second of sleep over someone else’s property taxes. If the voters in Florida want a different “progressive” property tax calculation, they can put that to a voter referendum. And if it passes, Florida can watch their tax revenues decline as property owners leave the state.
As I said, ” It may be true that taxes levied at actual sale value would be too high for the market to support the high prices in sales, but that of course is the very reason for the discrepancy. ” (my text right above you responded to)
The problem I pointed out is something I’ve never heard mentioned once by anyone in this entire discussion for so many months. Yet, it is the very basis of the discrepancy that allows the criminal demoncrat fraudster to dupe it up in his courtroom.
I find the whole thing is HIDDEN because the demoncrats are idiots and want their crime against Trump secured, while the neocons are jerks and don’t want the rich getting away with it exposed. ( you won’t lose sleep, and then of course you threaten (wealthy) “property owners” fleeing Florida if (not progressive) just equal assessments apply, as in linked to the real and probable sale value.
So, ya know, whatever.
( you won’t lose sleep, and then of course you threaten (wealthy) “property owners” fleeing Florida if (not progressive) just equal assessments apply, as in linked to the real and probable sale value.
I obviously do not live in Florida and I have no intentions of doing so. This is a state issue and if the voters in Florida want to change how their property taxes are calculated, then so be it. I’m not quite sure how you’re squaring that circle to call it “equal” and not “progressive.” Regardless, you start messing with property taxes and it won’t be just the wealthy leaving the state.
Assessed value is less than real value when it comes to fat rich pig properties, not the general public.
That’s not accurate. Assessed value is almost always less than market value for all sectors of the housing market. Fractional assessment is a fact of life for all properties, not just high-end ones. The one exception is during a base year when a countywide reassessment occurs. Just after the reassessment, the assessment ratio (assessed value/estimated market value) for all properties is 1.0. After that, the assessed value remains the same until the next base year, which might not happen for 20 or 30 years. All the while, the market value appreciates, meaning the assessment ratios for all properties decrease.
Each year the state computes the common-level-ratio (CLR) – i.e., the average assessment ratio – based on sales that occurred within the last 12 months. If a high-end property’s assessment ratio falls below the CLR, the taxing authorities have a right – and will have a big incentive – to appeal the assessment and get it up to the CLR, thereby equalizing it with the average assessment ratio across the county.
It depends on the jurisdiction. My community uses market values for taxes assessments.
Fine, the general public pays close to the actual average or more.
As you move toward more expensive properties the rate DECREASES.
For rich pigs like Maralago you already saw I showed the rate is 30 or 40 to one below the fair payment.
Olly above laughed and called himself a fat pig but he failed that level. He shows he got some discount but not much. I’ll await his percentage if he desires to expose more, but I gave a decent guess.
You can babble all you want about it, but the facts remain, no little home owner is getting a 30 to 1 reduction. The rule is the more it can be sold for the lower the real property tax rate. That’s how the real world works,
Tax laws are always written with the wealthy in mind. Warren Buffett, for example, has a net worth of about $118 billion, give or take a few billion. Buffett’s personal secretary has a net worth of less than $2 million. Yet, she pays a tax rate of 35.8% of her income, while Buffett pays a rate of about 17.4% of his.
In public, of course, Buffett proclaims that he wants higher taxes for billionaires like him. But in private, he fights tooth and nail to avoid paying even one penny more.
Totally agree. I was surprised as well that the judge decided without any foundation that the property was worth $16 million, and that Mr. T. had committed fraud. Real estate valuations, especially of commercial property, are complex and not straightforward. The judge nor the AG are qualified in that area. Mar-A-Largo is a unique property, so comparables will be difficult to find. Moreover, banks are experienced lenders, and they know how to value property serving as security for a loan and the creditworthiness of a borrower. If the banks were willing to lend Mr. T. the money after evaluating his net worth and collateral, then they must have concluded that the risk of default was acceptable. How is this a fraud case? This was a normal commercial transaction. In my view, the AG needs to be disbarred. Unfortunately, there are never consequences for zealous prosecutors. Weissman kept his job after the convictions in the Enron case were thrown unanimously by the SC. He should have been fired. Smith has also a bad track record but is still in his job. Problem is that our justice system is rotten. Unless you are extremely rich (like Mr. T.) you can simply not financially afford to defend yourself against federal criminal charges. Just imagen, in the DC case, Smith produced 1.3 million documents as proof. Just reading and evaluating these, requires a regiment of lawyers. Who can afford that? That’s why most people simply plead guilty to minor charges; otherwise, your family goes bankrupt. That is not justice, that is prosecutorial tyranny.
Criminal Letia James is milking her fraudulent case for all its worth, even though she knows the case will be thrown out on appeal as total garbage. But from her perspective, she just looking ahead to her second career as a “pundit” presstitute for CNN or MSNBC at an annual $3 million salary or better.
“ Totally agree. I was surprised as well that the judge decided without any foundation that the property was worth $16 million, and that Mr. T. had committed fraud.”
The judge used the county property tax assessment to arrive at the $18-27 million figure. He also had evidence before him to ascertain that he committed fraud. He didn’t just make it up as we went along.
As discussed above, property tax rates of Florida average .80 percent per year below the .99 percent per year national average.
Maralago paid 600k last time, so 100 times 600k is :
60 MILLION
I’m not sure how the criminal at the bench made his 18-27 million figure, other than I find it likely the tax jurisdiction uses a 1/3rd type multiplier in it’s likely obscure calculations as many other places do, and the dummy at the bench ignored that, failed to figure it out, or just lied for convenience.
One more point about subjective values. Let’s consider Diamonds or Numismatic Coinage. The United States Mint is selling a 2023 One Ounce Silver American Eagle Proof Coin, San Francisco mint for $80.00. Today pricing for Silver is $23.27 +/- per ounce; the question is who priced this particular coins value, the market, buyer or the maker?
Diamonds values have many variables, weight, cut, color, clarity etc., it takes an appraiser, who values the rock, but again there is subjective determination by the appraiser, and an agreement between buyer and seller to actual value at time of sale.
Yes, value is, indeed, in the mind (and the pocketbook) of the beholder. But to paraphrase Lewis Carroll, ‘When I determine the value of a thing, Humpty “Engoron the Moron” Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’
It was painful for me to watch a clip from the proceedings in the NYC court yesterday, especially when the cameras focused on the smirking face of AG Letitia James. As a member of the New York bar, I have been extremely disappointed in the way that AG James has handled her responsibilities. My fundamental concern is the manner in which resources have been allocated by Ms. James. She sued the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) when it adopted Regulation Best Interest, which imposes a new standard of conduct on broker-dealers, in 2020. I read the Complaint and found it to be nonsensical. The Complaint went nowhere. A client of my firm filed a Complaint with the AG relating to a financial scam perpetrated by a New York resident, and received no response. The AG did nothing, but the scoundrel was finally taken to task by the SEC and is now in jail. Now we have the case against former President Donald Trump based on Section 63(12) of the Executive Law. It will be interesting to see the case law under Section 63(12). I have become weary of the manner in which officials in New York State squander taxpayer dollars.