Below is my column in The Hill on the disgraceful Democratic attacks against Elon Musk over his status as a naturalized citizen. For years, some of us have raised concerns over the adoption of McCarthyite tactics and rhetoric by the left to demonize those with opposing viewpoints, including critics of the massive censorship system under the Biden Administration. Those attacks are now reaching a dangerous crescendo after the 2024 loss in the presidential election.
Here is the column:
This month, 75 years ago, Sen. Joe McCarthy (R-Wisc.) gave his infamous speech denouncing disloyal Americans working at the highest levels of our government. It was the defining moment for what became known as McCarthyism, which attacked citizens as dangerous and disloyal influences in government.
Some of us have criticized the rising “rage rhetoric” for years, including that of President Trump and Democratic leaders, denouncing opponents as traitors and enemies of the state.
In the 2024 election, the traditional red state-blue state firewalls again collapsed, as they had in 2016. The response among Democrats has been to unleash a type of new Red Scare, questioning the loyalty of those who are supporting or working with the Trump administration in carrying out his promised reforms.
Elon Musk is the designated disloyal American for many on the left. That rage has reached virtual hysteria on ABC’s “The View.” This is the same show before the election on which hosts warned that, if Trump were elected, journalists and homosexuals would be rounded up and “disappeared.”
After the election, democracy seemed to stubbornly hang on, so the hosts had to resort to attacking as disloyal anyone joining the government or supporting Trump’s policies.
This week, co-host Joy Behar followed many others in questioning Musk’s loyalty and attacking him over being a naturalized American citizen: “The guy was not born in this country, who was born under apartheid in South Africa. So, [he] has that mentality going on. He was pro-Apartheid, as I understand it.”
Behar was then forced, perhaps by panicked ABC lawyers, to walk back the comment — such retractions having become a regular feature on “The View“. What came out was the type of jumbled confusion that results when you interrupt a lunatic on the metro in mid-rave.
Behar stated: “I’m getting some flack because I said that Musk was pro-apartheid. I don’t really know for sure if he was … He was around at that time, but maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t—he might have been a young guy, too. So, don’t be suing me, okay Elon?”
This anti-immigrant attack on Musk, however, has worked its way into many Democrats’ talking points, even though their party had previously claimed to defend immigrants against racist Republicans seeking to close the Southern border and deport criminal illegal immigrants.
On Capitol Hill, Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) launched a xenophobic tirade that should have shocked the conscience of the nation. She warned citizens that Musk could not be trusted because he is an immigrant who has been a citizen for only a couple of decades: “Mr. Musk has just been here just 22 years and he’s a citizen of three countries. I always ask myself the question: With the damage he’s doing here when push comes to shove, which country is he loyal to? South Africa, Canada, or the United States? And he’s only been a citizen, I’ll say again, 22 years.”
Former Republican Rep. Liz Cheney was another joining in to attack Musk for being an immigrant. “You may be unfamiliar with that part of our history since you weren’t yet an American citizen,” she wrote on Musk’s social media platform, X.
These attacks are straight out of McCarthy’s playbook. It was McCarthy who insisted that “there are no degrees of loyalty in the United States — a man is either loyal or he’s disloyal…” Of course, McCarthy (and the earlier Red Scare) attacked government employees, writers and others on the left. It is now the left that is employing the same tactics, including censorship, blacklisting and public vilification.
Throughout the 2024 campaign, the Democrats, including President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, painted Republicans as either aspiring or actual fascists. That continued recently with Minnesota Gov. and former Vice Presidential candidate Tim Walz (D), who referred to Republicans as “fascists and Nazis.”
Even journalists and civil libertarians have been reviled using the same terms. After a hearing on censorship two years ago, MSNBC contributor and former Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) attacked journalists and members who had spoken in favor of free speech. She denounced the member witnesses (Sen. Chuck Grassley, Sen. Ron Johnson and former Rep. Gabbard) as “Putin apologists” and Putin-lovers.
Stacey Plaskett, the Democratic delegate representing the Virgin Islands in the U.S. House, even suggested arresting respected journalist Matt Taibbi, who, along with Michael Shellenberger, testified on their investigation into a massive censorship system developed under the Biden administration.
The attack on Musk is particularly disgraceful, given his contributions to his adopted country. Ironically, filmmaker Michael Moore denounced the deportations of criminal illegal immigrants last week by noting that Trump was deporting someone who might cure cancer or be the next Steve Jobs. Well, this is a naturalized citizen who not only could be the next Elon Musk. He is Elon Musk.
As politicians and pundits question Musk’s loyalty, Space X is moving to rescue two astronauts stranded in space. Musk has volunteered his time and skills to achieving a record reduction in the size and waste in government. One can disagree with his priorities or the means he uses to achieve his goals, but he has nobly stepped forward to serve his country despite death threats from the left.
Musk is also facing such attacks in Canada, where thousands have signed petitions to strip him of his citizenship. The left did not seek to revoke the citizenship of figures who have eviscerated free speech and other individual rights in that country. It is Musk who is persona non grata.
This is nothing new for Musk, whom the left has targeted since he announced an intention to buy Twitter and restore free speech protections on that site.
The concern is not for Musk, who has the intestinal fortitude (and financial means) to stand up to a global mob. Moreover, with polls showing overwhelming support for reducing the size of government and the budget, the campaign to obstruct these efforts is unlikely to resonate with voters.
The danger is more acute for the country as disagreements over policy are transformed into attacks over loyalty. It is the most dangerous form of rage rhetoric, an effort not to debate but to demonize those with whom you disagree.
When you have members of Congress standing in front of the Capitol, denouncing naturalized citizens as untrustworthy after a mere 22 years as a citizen, it is a moment that would have made McCarthy blush.
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University and the author of “The Indispensable Right: Free Speech in an Age of Rage.
Trump’s buddy Steve Bannon called Musk “a parasitic illegal immigrant. He wants to impose his freak experiments and play-act as God without any respect for the country’s history, values or traditions,” Yep, Professor Turley, when you have Trump’s former White House chief strategist denouncing naturalized citizens as untrustworthy after a mere 22 years as a citizen, it is a moment that would have made McCarthy blush.
This week’s Fox News poll shows 58% of the country disapproves of Elon Musk’s work with DOGE & only 40% approve. The Fox News poll has Trump with 49% approval & 51% disapproval. Trump’s RCP average approval rating is currently 47.9% with 48.8% disapproval. Today, The Hill has a story “Republicans want Musk to shut up about Social Security.”
Yet Professor Turley is predictably laser focused on Democrats & Joy Behar. Go figure.
John Roberts – did you know at least 40,000 Americans have lived under a totalitarian regime since 9/11, denied all constitutional due process.
That happened when your court allowed Bush to violate Ronald Reagan’s Torture Treaty, with covert blacklisting, the worst form of torture invented by the communists during the Cold War.
Mr. Roberts maybe start here issuing apologies to these 40,000+ innocent Americans with no links whatsoever to terrorism! Then provide “judicial review” (your top duty) over the lawless policies of the 21st Century.
This stands in stark contrast to the rhetoric often employed by Republicans regarding immigrants, including those who are naturalized citizens. Turley’s defense of Elon Musk seems driven entirely by Musk’s immense power and influence, despite being an unelected “special government employee” without clear authority or any direct connection to DOGE. This is precisely the type of individual Republicans typically criticize when it comes to government affairs—yet they celebrate him as long as he aligns with their agenda. The hypocrisy here is striking, revealing a blatant double standard at play.
It’s evident that Trump’s grip on power is more illusory than real. He appears to lack awareness of what’s being presented to him daily, functioning merely as a figurehead who rubber stamps Executive Orders and recites the scripts given by his advisers.
Recent polls indicate a declining perception of Trump’s economic management, and the trajectory is certainly not in his favor. As time progresses, Trump and the Republican leadership will struggle to shift the blame onto Democrats or any external entity. While they may attempt to do so, it will ultimately be futile as long as they maintain total control and continue to exploit the ignorance of their most devoted supporters.
RFK Jr. is already encountering backlash from MAGA supporters after he wrote an article advocating for measles vaccinations in Texas. In a troubling turn, measles vaccinations have suddenly become contentious, and the disease is rapidly spreading in the state, resulting in the tragic death of a child for the first time in decades. This unfortunate scenario is a direct consequence of RFK’s past vaccine positions. Now, he finds himself opposing his former supporters by championing increased vaccination efforts against measles. Not only is the disease spreading among the unvaccinated, but, much like during the Covid crisis, it’s also impacting those who cannot be vaccinated. RFK Jr. is finally grappling with the same challenges that Covid vaccine advocates have been highlighting for years.
This reply sounds too canned; and with too many Democrat buzz phrases to be anything but troll fodder. ” Unelected bureaucrats are everywhere in the Federal government. Next comes the poll numbers argument, which is absurdly ridiculous and wrong. I get that the Dems really have real argument; and have to create issues out of whole cloth; but the real loser is how offended they are about the actual waste and fraud that has been uncovered. Sorry pal- that’s an absolute loser of an argument to anyone that pays taxes. But please…keep it up.
It’s not about waste and fraud—it never was. It’s about arbitrarily reducing the size of government. Waste and fraud are simple-sounding excuses that ‘make sense’ only to those too ignorant to fully understand what is going on.
DOGE is not transparent about its findings, and the “savings” it finds don’t amount to much. DOGE is using AI to “find” fraud, and it’s using untrained and inexperienced “staffers” to decide what fraud and waste are without a complete understanding of the department they are “auditing.”
Republicans and MAGA’s have always been opposed to unelected bureaucrats making decisions and having any outsized authority. Elon Musk and his team ARE acting as unelected bureaucrats of a different flavor. The only difference is Republicans and MAGAs are ok with it as long as THEY are not being affected by their decisions. That is not turning out to be the case, and many MAGAs and Republicans are now quietly complaining about it because it’s affecting them as well.
The economy is not improving under these conditions, and it will not improve anytime soon because the government is so focused on tearing up departments and agencies and relishing the idea that it is doing something good. Once things start to cascade into a series of failures and increasing government inaction, even MAGAs will sour on the idea of a smaller government. Given the current pace, it won’t take long.
Elon may be a naturalized citizen, but he’s also the type of person Republicans, even libertarians, say shouldn’t be a citizen according to their twisted interpretation of the 14th Amendment. Elon believes in the “great replacement theory,” which declares that the majority white population is slowly being replaced with immigrants and the less desirable. This is why Trump floated the idea that certain millionaires could buy their citizenship and skip to the front of the line if they pay 5 million dollars for a “golden card.” No specific qualifications are required except the ability to pay 5 million dollars, so much for merit and skill. Even foreign criminals with that kind of money could become citizens merely because they are richer than most. People with low incomes do not need to apply, seems to be the message.
While the claim is obviously false – lets presume you are right and Trump is just a Musk Puppet ?
So what ? We have already had a puppet president – a very bad one.
Whetehr it is Musk of Trump in charge – what is being done is what the majority of americans who voted for Trump wanted,
as compared to the unpopular woke nonsense that Biden delivered while promising to be a centrist uniter.
I would be happy to vote for Musk for president – if that was possible.
And apparently so would most americans – DOGE is polling at 72% favorable in many polls.
“RFK Jr. is already encountering backlash from MAGA supporters after he wrote an article advocating for measles vaccinations in Texas. In a troubling turn, measles vaccinations have suddenly become contentious, and the disease is rapidly spreading in the state, resulting in the tragic death of a child for the first time in decades. This unfortunate scenario is a direct consequence of RFK’s past vaccine positions. ”
George you are completely clueless.
Neither RFK jr. nor MAGA have ever been “anti-vax.
What they are is anti faux science as religion.
The rise of measles in TX is caused by 4 years of limitless illegal immigration.
Illegal immigrants come from countries with poor healthcare systems.
It should be fully expected that there will be more health issues with illegal immigrants and with those who
are constantly exposed to illegal immigrants.
Children in TX – and particularly illegal immigrants should be vaccinated.
At the same time We expect that HHS will be looking at US vaccination programs.
Shutting down those that are ineffective or more dangerous than beneficial.
While making changes to the rest to make them more effect AND/OR more reflective of peoples preferences.
People should be able to get the measles vaccine the Mumps vaccine and The Rubella vaccine independently if they choose.
They should be able to get vaccines without thimerisol.
And advanced society with best int he world medical care should not be giving crappy one size fits all vaccines,
“This stands in stark contrast”
This comment, like every other example I have ever seen you deposit here, stands in stark contrast to honesty, sense, and sanity.
George you seem to completely misunderstand conservatism and MAGA, as well as reality.
What is Musk’s “power” ? It is the power to DISEMPOWER.
Of Course conservatives support significant power to DISEMPOWER.
Musks power diminishes automatically as Waste and Fraud in governemtn are reduced.
Of course musk is “unelected” there are only 535 Elected federal officials and 523 of those are in congress.
DUH ?
Worse you are STUPIDLY attacking the presidents ability to FIRE unelected bureaucrats while ranting about an unelected Bureacrats whose jobs is to fire unproductive unelected bureaucrats
The claim that Trump’s grip on power is illousory is at odds with the vigorous trench legal warfare that you are engaging to thwart Trump from eliminating government waste and fraud.
Sorry George – Trump is Lincoln – and Musk is Sherman on his march tot he sea.
There is no illusion as to who is in charge.
I would further note the delussion n that Biden was EVER competant
Should be gone. Trump has spent more time in front of the public and the media in 30 days than Biden in 4years.
And does not need handlers to keep him from wondering off the edge of the stage.
“Recent polls indicate a declining perception of Trump’s economic management”
ROFL
The left the media democrats have engaged in the most relentlessly stupid warfare against Trump – driving their own polling to record lows and barely taking a point or two off Trump.
If that is your idea of success – “Please sir can I have more”
Regardless, long term Trump’s polling will have ZERO to do with your attacks.
AS James Carville famously said “Its the Economy Stupid”.
Trump has inherited a mess that is even worse than thought.
It is an open question how painful cleaning up that mess will be.
Trump’s political support will track how quickly and painlessly he is able to repair the damage you have done.
At the same time it is CLEAR that whatever Trump’s numbers do – those of the left and democrats are headed relentlessly DOWN.
Trump’s popularity is high.
Republicans in congress – less so.
Democrats ? bottom of the barrel and dropping.
Trump and republican leadership need not struggle to blame democrats.
The public is doing that for them.
AND Democrats are doing everything in their power to remain as unpopular as possible.
So far democrats are paying a very high price to trim 1-2pts from trump.
We get this nonsense from those of you on the left all the time.
MOST Trump and RFK jr. supporters would pay little attention to RFK jr.s actions regarding Texas – but for left wing loons.
If there is ANYONE out there that has a problem with RFK jr. encouraging Measles Vaccinations – I have not met them.
Almost nbo one exists that absolutely rejects vaccines in all forms and absolutely rejects that others can use their free speech to encourage voluntary vaccination
YOU are clueless about supposedly MAGA issues and people.
The issue is NOT some nonsense that all vaccines are evil.
It is that people should be free to make decisions about their health for themselves and that parents should be free to make them for their children.
I do not KNOW that the MMR vaccine – as opposed to separate Measels. mumps and rubella vacines is dangerous – you do not know that it is safe. Each of us should be free to gain as much or little information as we wish and make our own decisions.
The PROBLEM is those of you on the left seek to FORCE a long list of vaccines on all of us – in a one size fits all approach.
Without even allowing anyone to Question the safety or efficacy of what you are FORCING on people.
It was without any doubt a MISTAKE to FORCE the Covid Vaccine on Children. As an example.
They had low risk of infection negligable risk of death or serious harm and the known probability of adverse effects was higher than any possible good.
But the jury is still out on whether the vaccine is on NET helful for older people.
It was also both a violation of civil rights and medical malpractice to FORCE the covid vaccine on those in the military.
But you did.
Conversely it is reasonable to give illegal immigrants a choice between Measles vaccines in the midst of an outbreak focust on the illegal immigrant community, and quarantine and later deportataion
Prof. Turley;
Excellent article.
Senate Dems kill legislation to protect women’s competitive sports from having men invade, not only the sport but the locker rooms and showers. About 80% of Americans favor a ban on men in women’s sports, but the Senate Dems were *unanimous* in voting it down so it could not survive their filibuster.
They are addicted to (a) crazy, and (b) losing.
Utterly gutless people. You know most of them did not want to vote that way, but were afraid to buck the party leadership.
SCOTUS granting homosexual nuptial rights utterly destroyed the Progressive lobbyists for that cause. The socially “conservative right” utterly and apparently permanently lost. No more political bogeymen/opponents to slay on this subject. They were all dead. All the lobby could do was close up shop, fire everyone and call it a day…they all had to get honest jobs…………….NOT!
They invented out of thin air a new dragon to slay: trans rights including for children demanding to be castrated chemically and physically, even without parental consent. And anyone who disagreed is worse than a Putin puppet, they are guilty of child murder. And trans rights of course means men get to own girls’ sports including sports scholarships. Parents who deny consent must be imprisoned while the State raises the children. After they win this battle once and for all, the next battle is, well, use your imagination.
Well, look at this!
Analysing data from over 107,000 patients diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the research suggests that those who pursue such procedures face a markedly higher risk of mental health challenges compared to those who do not.
The study, which focused on adults over the age of 18, compared two matched cohorts: individuals who had undergone sex-change surgery and those who had not. The findings were stark.
According to the researchers, “Our analysis reveals a significantly elevated risk of mental health disorders—including depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and substance use disorder—post-surgery among individuals with a prior diagnosis of gender dysphoria.”
Breaking down the data by gender, the study found that both males and females who underwent these procedures experienced a greater likelihood of depression compared to their counterparts who did not have surgery.
This challenges the narrative that so called ‘gender-affirming’ surgeries universally improve mental well-being by alleviating gender dysphoria. Instead, the research suggests that surgical interventions do not address the root causes of psychological distress and could, in some cases, exacerbate them.
https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/trans-surgeries-increase-risk-suicidal-ideation-oxford-study
Squeaky this is for you girl.
OT sorry but I didn’t bring it up. Couldn’t find the Squeaky comment again that precipitated this one in the clutter below.
I consider the Israeli army to be at least the equal, if not superior, in training, military cohesion and effectiveness to the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_gender_identity_in_the_Israeli_military
Per link above they have no problem letting Gay lesbian bi trans whatever people serve and accommodating their medical needs.
You, your ex pilot father and president bone spurs who unlike many trans people didn’t even have the courage to serve are full of crap.
Maybe president bone spurs can cut off aid to Israel until they get their gender biases in order too.
High suicidal ideation rates and heavy weaponry! What a match made in Heaven!
Did you serve?
If Israel wants to put mentally ill people in its Army, and give them guns, then that is Israel’s own business. Maybe they are having problems getting recruits or something. Whatevah!
Squeaky, Israel is a small nation surrounded by a world that is often hostile toward it. Given its size and circumstances, Israelis tend to know one another more closely, and their military operates under a system quite different from that of the United States. While NotaFan’s description may not fully capture this reality, it’s possible that recent changes—especially in light of the events of October 7—have had unintended negative consequences.
Fantastic 4 minute recap of why Russia invaded Ukraine:
https://x.com/LionelMedia/status/1896192766184657274
UNBELIEVABLE. NOBODY PAID ATTENTION AND THE DEMOCRATS GOT AWAY WITH MURDER.
Breaking!
#74 ground wars and killing are for Neanderthals. The battleground has evolved to economics and smarts. The UK has no young men to spare anymore and yet, starmer is crowing about putting men on the ground in Ukraine. Insane
I think that Trump is now actively trying to get forces inside Ukraine to depose Zelenskyy. Hopefully he is successful…
OT
Elon Musk stated that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, “a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors,” per Wiki.
Social Security may not be taxed for or funded per Article 1, Section 8, as it is not debt, defense, or “general Welfare”—it benefits merely 18.7% of the population, distinctly not “general,” which is defined as all or the whole.
As is the case with the communist American welfare state, including related agencies and departments:
– Social Security must have been struck down at its inception.
– The singular American failure is the judicial branch, with emphasis on the Supreme Court.
I did buy a copy today of None Dare Call It Treason. I read it way back when I was young. There was a 25th Anniversary edition that I got for about $8. Updated and more info.
I met my first tragedy of government downsizing today. He works for the Bureau of Land Management. He has 37 years in and was going to retire next January. Instead he is retiring at the end of the month, full benefits.
We are nearing the edge of the cliff and growing a trillion dollars every 100 days. Soon, this will not be abstract. It reminds me of the story about the college boy wanting to date a math student. He asked her out and she said she’d let him know in million seconds (11 and a half days). She was asked am by another boy who was not very nice. She told him she would get back with him in a billion seconds (31.7 years). Yet another boy asked her. He told her that she would get back with him in a trillion seconds (31,700 years). The future politician walked away happy that she would consider his offer.
This fellow is lucky. He gets full retirement benefits. There are many who will lose good paying jobs, and have to start driving a forklift, or doing Door Dash jobs. Some will deserve it. Some won’t.
“Some will deserve it. Some won’t.”
Meh. Everyone with a job should consider that it may not last as long as they would like. I suspect many, if not most, government employees, competent or not, assumed that they had a lifetime position if they so desired. No one deserves that, and no one really has it. Which is the lesson to be learned. My sympathy is quite limited. Welcome to the real world.
Agreed. We have friends who lost their businesses (small mom and pop operations), their jobs, their savings, their livelihoods due to Biden’s Handlers COVID lockdowns. No one shed a tear for them. Now Fed workers are losing their cush jobs with extraordinary benefits, many of whom were remote jobs. Fed workers are the most overpaid, inefficient, unaccountable jobs in America. They get little sympathy when in comparison to the millions harmed by Biden. Then there are the children who suffered…
True. It’s the real world. I went back to work in 2018 through a Disability Program. Worked from home, and never missed a day, or took any sick time. When hospitalized, I worked from my hospital bed. There were two reductions in force, prior to the third one in 2023. At that time, there were only two employees left, me and a woman in Connecticut. We were both let go.
It was hard, and I was lucky. I had a social security check. So, I feel sorry for many of those losing their jobs, but the government can not continue to pay people with a national credit card. In one respect, some of these people brought it on themselves – not working hard, and doing jobs that don’t need doing.
There is going to be a major impact on their lives, and the businesses in their areas, and perhaps many of these people, Democrats, will begin to understand the need to chase out the illegal aliens, and bring jobs back from overseas.
Maybe they will also come to appreciate the folly of the Green Energy programs, particularly those in Maryland, where the Democrats have caused utility bills to skyrocket:
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/maryland-democrats-clearly-denial-state-races-twin-crisises
Historically the massive societal and governmental changes that we are scared will be incredibly disruptive and destructive are adapted to very quickly.
Firing every single federal govenrment worker would be about half as much employment disruption as NAFTA – and within 18months nearly everyone displaced by NAFTA had a job.
Trump’s firing’s so far – if they hold up amount to about 1 month worth of nation wide NET private job creation.
The process is called Creative destruction. It is an inherent part of free markets. It is fundimental to their success.
Gains in efficiency – which are the driver to rising standared of living ALWAYS result in the eventual destruction of the businesses and jobs of those involved in less efficient means to accomplish something.
Rising standard of living REQUIRES more that humans value created by less human effort.
There is no other way to raise standard of living.
Inevitably that results in the new CONSTANTLY destroying the old.
The Telegraph destroys the pony express, the telephone destroys the telegraph and on and on.
“within 18months nearly everyone displaced by NAFTA had a job. ”
Might not be 100% correspondence there. Probably >95% of those displaced by NAFTA did some meaningful, productive, work at their former positions.
#74. The government became an employment agency including military it’s a little under 4 million. All the executive branch minus 60 thousand for judicial and legislative branches combined.
Insanity
Yep, some will have to work for a living like the rest of the world. I have a family member who has worked a number of government projects. He said the waste and fraud is out of control.
I worked for what was, at one time, the largest corporation in the world. After 15 years of dedication and hard work in the private sector, I lost my position, advancement potential, salary, seniority, healthcare, dental, vision, disability, sick leave, vacation, and retirement. I had to start all over from square one. I had an option to move 4 to 7 states away from my wife and kids, my parents, my extended family, my friends, and my home. Your “tragedy” is simply retiring. It’s not clear what your point is. Many people have lost jobs. Many people have been in accidents or been diagnosed with cancer; it’s called life. I have little sympathy for people “RIFed” from the government gravy train. Most of it would not exist if America had an impartial, honest, and effective judicial branch.
I feel for your loss. But most Americans, who do not work for the government, have to deal with what you did. The sudden loss of a job, and having to start over. These government workers are going to have it worse, because they have lived in a system where job loss was not something they had to worry about, and often job performance either.
Even when they get a new job, they are never going to be the same, and they will have the stress that comes from not knowing when or if the axe is going to fall again.
Welcome to 21st Century America!
#74. Yes, it’s impossible to plan a life without job security
I would hate to be 25 years old today, and just starting out in life. I mean, except for the chance to not make some of the major errors I did. But how do you have the confidence to take on a 20-year mortgage, with a 7-year marriage, or a 10-year job in your future? Would I even buy a house again, or commit to a marriage? Knowing what I know now, I would have to say that I wouldn’t. I’d probably buy a used 32-foot RV, and live in it. Skip the whole marriage thing, and try to build up as much cash as possible, and get a few acres out from town. Pay cash for a used pickup truck, and buy a spare one to keep around in case that one broke. Try to learn several skills to keep myself employable. Work part-time as a security guard, and try to live on that money, and sock away cash from the main job.
Floyd, I’d still get married for the kids in my future.
Also I’d have more kids. I have three biological and two adopted. Could seem like a lot by today’s standards but I would like at least two more (biological) but alas the wife is past childbearing age.
That’s why I said 25. I was already a single mom by that age.
Oh, got it.
My first wife joined the Air Force, which allowed me to get custody of my daughter. Things were different in those days. My first real job, I was paid more because I was a married man, and had a family to support. Right after that, the laws changed, and living standards began to decline across the country.
OT but timely
I hope the next Pope is a Catholic.
Young – that would be refreshing.
I hope the next Pope is a Catholic.
If God Himself came down from Heaven and took the form of a person, you would be the first to crucify Him
Estovir,
Is a bear a Catholic? Does the Pope poop in the woods?
I’ve wondered with this guy.
Estovir: “If God Himself came down from Heaven and took the form of a person, you would be the first to crucify Him.”
Not to get too theological here, but wasn’t that supposed to happen the first time [inevitable if you are God] so what is the problem with carrying out His will?
In any event, I am not on board with the whole human sacrifice thing to atone to a god…it seems much too pagan a ceremony.
It probably made sense at the time when animal sacrifices were done daily and human sacrifices were done under extraordinary circumstances while seeking special favors. Plutarch says the Greeks on Salamis sacrificed a couple people when the Persians arrived and I think it was Livy who suggested that the Romans sacrificed a Gaul or two when Hannibal showed up after Cannae, and the Aztecs really got into it, but on the whole it is so out of fashion these days that it is hard for us to make much sense of the point of the whole procedure. Does anyone do that sort of thing anymore? I thought money contributions replaced killing things. Probably more hygienic.
So, no, I would not be the first to crucify Him in your example…too old fashioned. Couldn’t we just get along or, at most, offer up a Big Mac or maybe a duck if you insist that we kill something to satisfy God? But, in the latter case, how much of a valid sacrifice would it be if the duck were able to come back to life? Things to ponder Estovir.
Young – there was no human sacrifice in the Jewish religion. As I understand it, the point of Christ (a Jew) dying was not just that he was human, but that he was God incarnate. No mere human would do. For God to remain true to His nature, the guilt of sinful people had to be paid with one’s life in order for them to be in good standing before God. But at the same time, God reserved the right to take that punishment on Himself in place of the sinner, and have the benefit of that death given to the sinner who did not actually die through the mechanism of faith in that God-sacrifice as a substitute. If I’m wrong in this I hope Estovir will correct me so I can get it right next time.
Oldman, I was just playing with Estovir’s mind. What he said was rather rude.
However, there are puzzles here. I think there were sacrifices in the early Jewish religion. It would be extraordinary if there were not since sacrifices were common in the ancient world and sometimes rather horrific as when children were sacrificed to Baal in Carthage. However that may be, the story of the crucifixion has been presented as a sacrifice to God to wash away sins and that would have made sense to most in the ancient world. Even one as wise as Socrates when dying mentioned to a friend that he owed a cock to Asculepius.
The question is, Why?
If God is God why does he need to have his son sacrificed to wash away the sins of others? Couldn’t he just say “Bygones. Don’t do it again” rather than put everyone through that misery? What does a blood sacrifice do for Him?
Without too much difficulty one could put an entirely different take on the evidence we have. Likely he didn’t die on the cross. He wasn’t up there long enough. Even when Pilate was asked for his body he was surprised that Jesus was already dead. They had to break the legs of the other two so the execution wouldn’t extend into a holy day
Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy and Pilate was corrupt so it isn’t hard to imagine a gratuity to let Jesus go. Pilate was reluctant to crucify him in the first place.
Then there was the folded napkin in the empty tomb. Angel’s don’t fold napkins; servants do. And when Mary saw Jesus in the garden she didn’t recognize him at first. Disguise? When she went to embrace him he backed away. Maybe too sore to be hugged. Disciples didn’t recognize him at first. Disguise again? Then he is no longer in Israel. Maybe gone to heaven–or to Rome. Catholic tradition tells of Peter fleeing Rome and meeting Jesus on the Appian way going to Rome. Domine, quo vadis? I have been to the spot where that encounter took place. It is a few yards from the Church of San Sebastian. I was driving down the Appian Way when I stopped at the church, visited the catacombs beneath it, and heard the story of Peter’s encounter with Jesus. It isn’t in the Bible but it is part of Catholicism.
It wouldn’t be the first time he got out of Dodge. Jesus went north when his cousin, John the Baptist was beheaded.
In any event, the story is of a human sacrifice to repay God. Not easy for us to see because we don’t do that anymore but it would have been obvious to the ancients.
Animal sacrifice was central to the Temple-based Jewish religion. Human sacrifice was prohibited. Sometimes the ancient Hebrews fell into idolatry and sacrificed their children to Moloch. They paid dearly for that, as God used surrounding hostile tribes or nations to mete out punishment (eg, the Babylonian exile), but it was not part of the Hebrew religion.
Again, the Christ sacrifice’s efficacy depends on him being God, not just man. That’s a crucial point to remember.
God can’t just treat sin (injustice) as if it didn’t happen and let bygones be bygones because that would make him a liar. He would be declaring someone to be honest and just who wasn’t. It would violate his nature. Even being omnipotent, there are still some things he can’t do. He can’t stop being God.
“If God is God why does he need to have his son sacrificed to wash away the sins of others? Couldn’t he just say “Bygones. Don’t do it again” rather than put everyone through that misery? What does a blood sacrifice do for Him?”
Because humans have free will. If your theology has a god that just snaps his fingers to have everything as he wishes – there is no free will humans are slaves, there is no need for sacrifice and forgiveness.
The thesis is that god created a world in which humans have free will – because that is superior to one in which humans are programed robots that behave however god directs.
But the price of free will is that is allows evil to be a choice.
This is a very brief and shallow explanation of millions of pages of theology and philosphy over thousands of years.
But the key point is that the questions you raised have answers.
Ultimately if you beleive there is a god, there is no reason for the universe – much less humanity to exist absent free will.
Otherwise the universe is little more than a model train that even god would quickly become bored with.
John,
I am not sure that there really is such a thing as free will or unfree will.
It appears to be a nonsensical expression invented to try to steer around theological conundrums. You will is your will. Period.
It is easy to make nonsense expressions. “George is raining” for example. The statement is grammatically correct but is nonetheless rubbish. Our language is versatile enough to craft other nonsense expressions that are less obviously rubbish but, at core, are just rubbish all the way down. Free will in theological discussions is one such. For only a little while it protects your theology from logic.
I don’t recall the expression ‘free will’ ever being used by the ancients. They didn’t need it because they had different gods. I wonder, do Hindu or Buddhists use the concept? Our modern, Western formulation of an omniscient and omnipotent God locks us in a trap and ‘free will’ is a cheat to get out of it, but not a very good one.
The first appearance of free will I am aware of is Genesis – the story of the garden of eden.
I think that Free Will was generally assumed until the 18th or 19th century.
There are branches of philosophy and psychology that reject free will – such as Behaviorist.
“if a person has free will, then they are the ultimate cause of their actions. If determinism is true, then all of a person’s choices are caused by events and facts outside their control.”
Regardless, if you ACCEPT that Humans have free will – an ENORMOUS amount Follows from that.
Much of left wing nut nonsense fails if you have free will.
Accept Free will and you need little else to arrive at some form of modern libertarianism using only logic.
“It appears to be a nonsensical expression invented to try to steer around theological conundrums. You will is your will. Period.”
It sound like you accept free will as a given.
Most people do – without thinking about it. But it is important. If you take Free will as axiomatic – lots of left wing nut rubbish fails logically.
While Free will’s origens are religion – atleast as far back as Genesis.
It is also found in philosophy – look up determinsm, compatibalism, ….
Again MOST people assume free will. But it is important whether you accept free will as axiomatic or not,
AS I noted many left wing arguments are failures logically – if you accept free will.
But if you reject free will – they are harder to disprove. But you also essentially end up in a dystopia.