There is a disturbing controversy in Northern Virginia where Jessica Walton alleges that she went to Karimi Salon in Alexandria to get her eyebrows trimmed, only to be pushed out of the salon after the owner, Fatana Karimi, learned that Walton is Israeli. The incident raises a prior issue discussed on this blog: the right of business owners to refuse service based on political or religious beliefs as a matter of free speech. Walton posted a full account and a video on social media. Karimi, however, may not have a constitutional claim to defend against a discrimination complaint.
In the video, the person identified as Karimi says that she declared on Instagram that she would not serve those who support Israel (She also adds that she got Walton to sign a release for the video):
I have included Walton’s full account below. She said that she was “nauseated” after a pleasant conversation turned nasty when she alluded to be Israeli. She claims that Karimi immediately declared “I can’t provide service to an Israeli. It’s against my political beliefs.”
We previously discussed businesses refusing to prepare cakes, websites, and other products over conflicting religious or political beliefs.
In prior columns, academic articles, and my book, “The Indispensable Right, I discussed the never-ending litigation targeting Jack Phillips, the Christian baker who declined to make cakes that violated his religious beliefs.
The case went all the way to the Supreme Court in what many of us hoped would be a final resolution of this conflict. I had long criticized the framing of the case (and other cases) under the religious clauses rather than treating it as a matter of free speech. In the end, the Supreme Court punted in a maddening 2018 decision that technically ruled in favor of Phillips based on a finding that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission showed anti-religious bias against Phillips.
In 2023, the Supreme Court delivered a major victory for free speech in 303 Creative v. Elenis, when it ruled that Lorie Smith, a Christian website designer, could refuse to provide services for a same-sex marriage. Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote, “the framers designed the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to protect the ‘freedom to think as you will and to speak as you think.’ … They did so because they saw the freedom of speech ‘both as an end and as a means.’”
Notably, in cases like Masterpiece Cakeshop, Phillips insisted that he would always sell cakes to any couple, including same-sex couples. He only refused to make cakes specifically celebrating same-sex marriages due to his religious views. In this case, Karimi is refusing to perform the same services for Walton due to her identity. Eyebrow trimming does not convey a political or religious viewpoint.
The Virginia Human Rights Act is designed to:
“Safeguard all individuals within the Commonwealth from unlawful discrimination in employment because of race, color, religion, ethnic or national origin, sex, pregnancy, childbirth or related medical conditions, age, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, or military status.”
Karimi is likely to argue that she was not refusing service due to Walton’s religious or national origin but her support for Israel, a political position. That could be difficult to maintain since Walton merely noted that she is part Israeli.
The case is reminiscent of the abusive treatment afforded to Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz at Martha’s Vineyard by a pierogi stand. He was also refused service over his political views.
The line between national origin and religious discrimination versus political discrimination can be tenuous and unclear. Walton would have the advantage in my view under the state law in asserting discrimination. In the video, the owner states it is her national identity that is causing the action: “Get out of my shop. I can’t provide service to an Israeli. It’s against my political beliefs. You need to leave immediately.”
It is not clear if Walton will now move forward with a formal complaint.
Jonathan Turley is a law professor and the best-selling author of “Rage and the Republic: The Unfinished Story of the American Revolution.”
N.B.: Here is part of Walton’s account:
I’m nauseated even having to write this, but I won’t be quiet about it. I want my friends—Jewish and non-Jewish—to know what I experienced at a salon in Alexandria, Virginia, because I refuse to let antisemitism become normalized in our country.
I went to the salon yesterday to get my eyebrows done. The esthetician turned out to be Afghan. I was delighted, since I just finished writing a novel based on true stories that is partly set in Afghanistan. I told her about the amazing Afghans I interviewed for the book. We talked warmly about our shared love of Afghan poetry and food. Then she asked me to tell her more about the premise of my novel.
My story is about a Muslim Afghan refugee and the son of Jewish immigrants who forge an unlikely friendship in post-9/11 Alabama, only to find that their shared gift for languages draws them into America’s shadow war in Afghanistan. I joked about how I went down a rabbit hole studying Islam and Sufism to create the Muslim character, but that I at least had an easier time sketching the Jewish half-Israeli character, since I’m Jewish and half-Israeli myself.
The woman stopped short. Then, “Get out of my shop.”
“Excuse me?”
“I can’t provide service to an Israeli. It’s against my political beliefs. You need to leave immediately. And there is no such thing as Israel. It’s Palestine. A bunch of Jews from New York showed up a few years ago and stole the land from the Arabs.”
(A bunch of Jews from New York showed up and…what?! This would’ve been funny if it wasn’t so insane.)
Shocked, I began packing up my purse to leave. The woman took out her phone and began recording me while chanting, “Free, free Palestine!” I asked her to stop recording me. She said I had signed a photo / video waiver and she had every right to record me. She then demanded I apologize for the genocide.
I told her there is no genocide, I wasn’t apologizing for anything, and that she was totally out of line for subjecting a customer to blatantly racist harassment. (By the way, denying service to someone based on their nationality is illegal in this country.) I also told her she needed to give me a full refund, since I hadn’t received the service I’d booked. She told me she was keeping the money and that I should be ashamed of myself and my people.
I was wearing a T-shirt she had given me for the treatment, so I asked her to stop recording while I changed back into my own clothes. She didn’t. I turned my back to the camera and changed anyway while she continued chanting “Free Palestine!” I’m pretty sure whatever waiver I signed didn’t give her permission to record me while I was half-naked.
I left the salon completely shaken. I cried all the way home. I cried for my kids and the uncertainty of their future as Jews in the United States. For all the lies we can’t possibly fight. For our people having to put up with this total bullsh*t.
We don’t deserve this.
I’m not naïve about the fact that the majority of Afghans are Muslim and that relations between Jews and Muslims are highly tense right now. The irony of this situation is that we had spent the previous minutes bonding over the very culture I had spent years trying to understand and portray with empathy, only for that curiosity and goodwill to be stamped on the moment she learned I was Jewish.
In the meantime, I already contacted my bank. They immediately refunded the money and contacted the woman to let her know they would be withdrawing the funds based on the incident I reported. I would also like to report what happened to any appropriate authorities and organizations in the D.C. area. If anyone knows specifically where an incident like this should be reported, please let me know.
Likely not much legal action will come of it (unless she is dumb enough to post the video), but I want a record of what happened. I want to at least do my part to make sure this kind of discrimination isn’t quietly accepted as the new normal for Jews in the United States.
Her last name is Walton, not Watson.
Yeah, I remember her from the Walton Family TV series.
To paraphrase a well known political operative of a previous era- “ It’s property rights stupid”
Paraphrase? So who was it?
Surely, in this free nation, a business owner may choose to whom they will offer their services (of course that is unless you are a christian cake baker – but that’s another story about the left’s tolerance).
I wonder if the blacks who support these DSA champions remember the “whites only” signs of the old south when they see the newer version of “no Jews allowed” or “no MAGA” allowed and make the connection.
What strikes me, at this point, is how similar is the pattern of our own democratic socialists party as they work to separate us into Jew and (in this case, not homosexuals), but white christians and state that it is this group who are responsible for the terrible conditions of the democrat socialists,
And if we just eliminate them, add in gun control, healthcare control, control of the media and education, control of the means of production; we have a “reich” that will last forever in total bliss.
Short of bullets, (Which worked in the past) the only hope is to educate enough voters while there is still time to defeat this movement at the polls. I have my doubts when you examine the depth of indoctrination that has occurred – and it was implemented for decades, not years – and the utter lack of cognitive ability among the cult members, that rather than turn aside from this cult, they will take to the streets to create utter chaos as “paid” soldiers for the cause and with the funding of nefarious agents inclined to want the destruction of America and what it represents to the world.
Surely, in this free nation, a business owner may choose to whom they will offer their services. Really? Considering your hate towrds everyone, can’t imagine you’d be a successful business.
In fact, I created a business in 1999, I’m now retired from it but my money and his daughter now own it (that’d 3 generations) and going strong even today. It’s a matter of creating a good product that customers want and will pay well for. And, by the way, absolutely no government assistance at all.
“no government assistance at all.” Think about those allowable deductions from the IRS; that is government assisting your business.
No deductions, we are in NY State and pay the very high tax rate to the state as well as the feds. We pay flat rent, buy our supplies without any subsidies (I don’t think there are any subsidies for our type of business) pay more than minimum wage when we need to hire additional help, donate to local charities all the time. We are self-sustaining because I created a product that cannot be done with AI, or with unskilled labor. We do custom work for special custom work for each customer. We are the epitome of a free enterprise LLC.
You obviously can’t understand that some allowable expenses and deductions are subsidies from the federal government i.e, those charitable donation you spoke about are tax deductible only because the IRS allows it. Now that’s called government assistance.
Now your talking in the first person about the business after you initially stated your daughetr took the business away from you. Get your story straight.
WTF is a free enterprise LLC? No such animal.
“. . . allowable deductions from the IRS; that is government assisting your business.”
So a thief who “allows” me to keep $5 is “assisting” me? You have a contorted understanding of “assistance.”
“. . . make the connection.”
If only. Then we’d have a culture of intellectual and moral giants. For they would be thinking in *principles*, in particular the principles of individualism vs. collectivism.
Talk about connection, you’ surely are adrift in a sea of stupid.
Now help us understand how that all comes back to Watson’s claim?
Notice the sequence, not just the outcome. The conversation was warm and specific right up until a label appeared. Before that word, she was responding to an actual person. After it, none of that mattered. A category overrode direct evidence in real time.
That should trouble people more than the politics does. Holding a strong view about Israel and still processing the person standing in front of you aren’t mutually exclusive. Here there was no friction between the two. The label didn’t inform her read of Watson. It replaced it.
And “she’s entitled to her beliefs” doesn’t answer the legal question. The Virginia Human Rights Act doesn’t ask if the belief is sincere. It asks if she denied a service based on national origin, and by her own words on video, she did. Sincerity has never been a defense to discrimination.
You got a point somewhere in all that salad?
Or just maybe. You can’t read.
Or just maybe, you can’t read. Um…. or maybe you can’t write a coherent simple sentence or punctuate. Why do you do this to yourself Dustoff?
DustOff,
As anyone who has frequented the good professor’s blog on a regular basis, reading comprehension has never been annony’s strong point. Or even weak point. His higher-indoctrination camp accepted him, despite him failing basic reading, writing, math skills and then just passed him along to get his useless DEI degree.
At least annony’s got an education. You?
Annony does not have an education.
That would require a degree of intelligence and critical thinking.
What annony has is a degree in indoctrination and DEI, which amounts to nothing.
That is why annony is still living at home, dependent on mommy and daddy for nearly everything.
Failure to launch.
Worth adding a data point against the “she just has strong feelings” excuse. I have a CPA in my office who is Palestinian, practicing Muslim, family in Gaza, people he’s lost since October 7th. We talk about this conflict often. He has far more personal stake in it than that salon owner does. It has never once produced a moment where the person in front of him stopped mattering. He holds the politics and the relationship at the same time, no override, no flip.
That’s what makes this incident about her, not about a group. Intensity of feeling isn’t the variable that explains what happened in that salon. Something else was missing, the practiced discipline of meeting the individual even when the abstraction would excuse not doing so. That’s not a statement about anyone’s religion. It’s a statement about which habits got built and which didn’t.
“In your office”, Olly but you already stated that you are retired; independent author soaking up the sun in ME. BTW, there is no sun in ME. Just haze.
And since when does an employer allow employees (you) cruise the internet to comment all day long on Turley’s blog?
Yup, retired…Navy Chief Petty Officer after 20 years of service. Many careers since and for the last 8 years in Accounting and Tax. All in sunny SoCal. Yup, Independent Author as well with 2 books published, working on the final book in the trilogy. Thanks for the mention. 😉
OLLY,
Good on you!
I think that is the difference between the older generations and the younger ones. We do not get complacent. We want to do more. That drive is what makes us a success.
I am at a point where I have opted to go to college for a two year degree.
Just read 10% of Gen Z do not interact with another human all day. They just stare at screens. However so depressing.
Then again, 30% of Gen Z males use AI chatbots in place of dating.
How sad.
Upstate, appreciate that, and congrats on going back for the degree. That’s the drive right there.
Those Gen Z numbers track with what we’re talking about too. You don’t learn how to sit with somebody who disagrees with you, or catch yourself mid-reaction, by texting a screen all day. That’s a muscle. If you’re not using it on real people, you lose it, or you never build it in the first place. Then a word hits you wrong and there’s no brake, because you never practiced having one.
They give associates away to monkeys.
They give BS, BA to dupes who pay lots of money for useless DEI, GER classes.
And then try to tell us they are . . . educated.
Last time I checked, a English, Math, Chem, class are all the same be it a 2 year or 4 year degree.
There is no difference.
Oh oh farmer is pissed and slurry his words.
Two yr. degree is called an associates degree and you didn’t know that? Don’t waste the money dude.
Living rent free …
What is the verbal difference between a two year degree and a associates degree?
Nothing! They are the same thing!
HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA!
What a dupe!
Many careers since? You been fired many times? Caught lying?
Acctng and tax you say? Don’t buy that. That’s an obvious lie.
Your comments are completely devoid of any knowledge of such subjects. You’re still a liar Olly.
Children’s books?
So many questions and yet you still think you have the right answers. Projection is a character flaw, not something you should be proud of. And no, I don’t write children’s books. You’ll have to look to some other author that writes to your capacity. 😂
So you show up on this blog at 2 – 3 AM Pacific time just to comment. Seriously?
Folks, this typical; on this blog, these old farts lying about their pathetic lives.
Lets talk about those two books Olly? As we recall you stated your book (not “books”) was about civility in society. Now, tell us, how does one write a trilogy about a social science subject when the term trilogy is applied strictly to novels, plays and movies.
Gotta say it Olly, you are a pathological liar.
Happy to clarify since you’re curious. Trilogy just means three parts, it ain’t some rule reserved for movies and novels. History’s full of them. Caro’s been writing his Lyndon Johnson books for decades and everybody calls it a trilogy even though it ran long. Rick Atkinson wrote a WWII trilogy on the liberation of Europe. Taylor Branch did one on MLK and the civil rights years. Shelby Foote wrote a three volume Civil War history everybody just calls a trilogy. So no, you didn’t catch me in anything, you just found out the word applies to more than what you learned in ninth grade English.
Mine’s the Civic Formation Trilogy, three books on how Americans get formed, or don’t, for actually running a self governing country. It’s at ourcivicspress.com if you want to read it instead of guessing at it.
This thread’s full of rakes, and even if there were only one, you’d still find a way to step on it.
OLLY,
Some people have the maturity and professionalism to put aside such feelings or have the discipline to conduct oneself in a professional manner.
Unfortunately that is not the world we live in.
Upstate, agreed, and it’s worth sitting with how fast it happened. One word turned a warm, engaged conversation into open contempt for the person’s existence. That’s not a difference of political opinion showing up. That’s a switch flipping. Whatever explains it, it wasn’t a measured response to anything Watson said or did.
You obviously don’t know the definition of a professional.
Hey Olly, he’s whining again, give him hanky.
That is a great contrast and insight. Perhaps another needed characteristic of immigrants is the willingness to drop their Old World tribalism and adopt the American creed as articulated in the Declaration of Independence, Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, MLK’s I have a dream speech, and many others. This is the land of opportunity and make the most of that opportunity.
Arnold, well said, and it fits the CPA point exactly. He didn’t leave his homeland or his faith at the door. He kept all of it. What he picked up here is the idea that the guy in front of you gets treated like a person, not like a stand-in for some fight happening on the other side of the world. That’s the actual deal America offers. Not forget where you’re from, just don’t let it run your hands when you’re dealing with somebody real.
Salon owner had the same choice sitting right there. She went tribal instead.
Excellent concise practical analysis!
Jonathan, Is this really the time for ‘fear mongering’ in America (by posting this piece on the Blog)?
Particularly when the current Administration is doing its all to rearrange the political of the Middle East.
Trump’s ‘art-of-Throw a Monkey Wrench into the Machine and see Me come out on top of the Deal’ has gotten very old.
Americans have long been threw with the ‘forever War’. Marjorie Taylor Greene was right about the status of the GOP & Trump.
Using Freedom of Speech to stir the Melting Pot is an age old tactic.
Fear mongering in America? Trump?
He just off the boat from Canada.
‘Do What Israel Tells You!’ – Graffiti On USAF Jet Suggests Troops Think War Isn’t For America
It only took two weeks of fighting for a majority of polled Americans to conclude that the war on Iran benefits Israel more than the United States. If comments from a prominent, former Navy SEAL and graffiti written in the dust of a US Air Force jet in the Middle East are any indication, many American service members are convinced their participation in the war only serves the agenda of the State of Israel and its prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.
By: Tyler Durden – ZeroHedge ~ Aug 18, 2026
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/do-what-israel-tells-you-graffiti-usaf-jet-suggests-troops-think-war-isnt-america
Trump’s approval drops 2 points in 2 weeks: Reuters/Ipsos poll
The poll, conducted from Friday through Monday, found that 33 percent of 1,166 respondents approved of the job Trump is doing, while 64 percent disapproved. The poll had a margin of error of 3 percentage points.
By: Max Rego – The Hill ~ 08/17/2B
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/6034097-trump-approval-lowest-point/
I wonder how that relates to the article? Defamation and polling?
Clearly a violation of the civil rights acts. Please file suit for her Jonathan!
It is very disturbing. And the dnc has made opening the border their official platform; it no longer matters which blue candidate one votes for, it’s a directive. Granted, this is not new in terms of marching orders on the modern left, but anyone still voting blue out of ignorance really, really needs to snap out of it. This is literally how The Holocaust began. People cannot be this stupid or selfish.
I wonder if Watson had told Karimi she’s half Israeli and the other half is Arab
She’s American. She’s not Israeli. She’s referring to her fathers nationality.
Karimi Salon in Alexandria on yelp, 236 1 stars in the last 24 hours.
Also the story made international news 2 days ago.
Real classy America!
NOVA, where DEI fuses with bigotry and becomes a way of life!
Not a surprise as the NOVA DEM BLUE RING bunch around DC have cultivated the melting pot of the Worst of the Worst from Immigration and, in turn, empowered local wokies who believe anyone who disagrees with them is to be insulted (free speech), humiliated (Freedom of Choice), and when deemed an emergency brutalized (assault)! You are reaping what you sowed DEMS! Enjoy.
So you’re saying Afghans are migrant scum? Gotta love MAGA.
Dad! Please come up from basement, take a shower and go look for a job! Your plan to get ‘free food’, ‘free rent’, ‘free transportation’ and ‘free healthcare’ is not working out in NYC. What makes you think it will work in NOVA when Senator Abdul El-Sayed comes to town?
Still on drugs eh?
Dad, you know we can’t afford drugs. All the family money is going toward your internet hook-up and DSA contributions. Please get a job!
You could prostitute yourself for the sake of the family. Try gay prostitution, big demand for your kind. But pedophilia seems more your line of work.
Maga?
A Jew walks into a Muslim business, sits down, tells the Muslim she’s a Jew. What did she expect?
I recall a personal incident 20 years ago. I, white liberal guy, walked into black owned barber shop. Asked for a cut. “Nope. We don’t do white hair.” Now I’m a conservative.
Opps… forgot to ad, and now bald.
Juts re-write it as a Black goes into a white guy’s salon, a Trans goes into a straight guy’s salon, A Muslim goes into a Jew’s salon, a woman goes into a man’s salon, an Asian goes into a Black guy’s salon.
Only our young moronic Anonymous would think that the Jew has no right to go into a Muslim shop. Bigoted little idiot.
Do you even realize how stupid your statement sounds. So tell us, why would a Muslim go into a Jewish shop? One reason will be that Muslim women wear hijabs and can only enter Muslim business accompanied by their husbands. When was the last time your were in a Muslin business?
Why would a trans go into a straight guy;’s salon? Why would they?
Why would a Black go into a white’s guys salon? Why would they?
Why would a Muslim go into a Jew’s salon? This is the best one, so why would they?
Dad, Why wouldn’t they? With that kind of reasoning, little wonder a guy would start a family and not take care of them.
Please come up out of the basement, Dad. The little ones need food and clothes for school and you scouring the internet in order to support bigotry gets us nothing.
“why would a Muslim go into a Jewish shop?”
Your type of thinking can be named rigid idiocy. You think like that, but most sane people don’t.
My favorite Middle Eastern restaurant in Greenwich Village was owned by an Israeli and managed by a Syrian, who I believe had a part interest. The best Kosher restaurant serving Shawarma was owned and run by a Muslim. Both were packed with normal people representing diversity, except, I guess, for your type.
“why would a Muslim go into a Jewish shop?” Can’t figure that out eh? Obviously because of your rigid idiocy.
When was the last time you stayed in Harlem? Or even you drove thru? And tell us about all those black friends you have.
So you hung out with normal crowd? All white I’ll guess.
Not everyone is as hateful as you.
But I will provide an answer given by me in another response. In Fort Lauderdale, the best Shwarma shop I know of is owned and run by a Muslim. Orthodox Jews eat there. The food is Halal. Muslims will frequent a Kosher restaurant because Kosher mostly complies with Halal food.
“When was the last time you stayed in Harlem? Or even you drove thru? And tell us about all those black friends you have.”
You are really stupid. Before the Great Society, Harlem was a good place, and people would go there for music, food, and friends, as did I. Did you ever hear of the Apollo Theater? Did you ever read a book?
Would it be okay to deny service to Chinese women visiting their children in America, not because of their race but because of political hatred for China?
Would it be okay… Chinese women…. yup. Really deep stuff Steve.
I dunno…equal protection under the law?
Maybe I missed it but in the video the owner does not say she won’t serve Israelis. She seems to say she won’t serve supporters of Israel. That could well be a significant legal difference. She may have earlier said the former, but it does not appear in the video so far as I can tell.
The woman stopped short. Then, “Get out of my shop.”
“Excuse me?”
“I can’t provide service to an Israeli. It’s against my political beliefs. You need to leave immediately.
The Israeli didn’t say she supports Bibi or the government did she?
Seems you missed the quote: “I can’t provide service to an Israeli.” Sharp as tack you are.
She may have said it before the video started but it’s not in the video.
Harmeet Dhillon could bring a claim by the DoJ under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
In 2004, federal agents raided the Alexandria, Virginia satellite office of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth, long suspected of terrorism by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.[29] After the raid, the organization strongly denied any ties to terrorism and stated that the government had told them the probe was focused solely on “immigration issues”.[30] The office was later permanently closed by order of the U.S. government.
So the place is fraught with Muslim terrorists.
For generations, Americans have been sympathetic to Israel and their continuing plight in having 100% hostile and aggressive neighbors. They are, after all, fighting to survive – no “dolce vita” is involved here. Suddenly, like almost over night, a large number of Americans charge them with an assortment of crimes against humanity.
I wonder how Americans would feel if Canada and Mexico were lobbing missiles into our large cities day by day, and we were totally dependent on other nations for arms toward our self-defense, i.e. survival.
Large number? And why would you wonder about missiles tossed by Canada and Mexico into the US?
Where do you come up with such nonsense?
Why would Watson’s bank get involved and withdraw the payment because she claimed religious bias? My bank has no policy for such an incident. She got tossed out mid service and then paid for it? Watson is lying. Just a Karen looking looking for her 15 minutes.
Quote from above:
The woman stopped short. Then, “Get out of my shop.”
“Excuse me?”
“I can’t provide service to an Israeli. It’s against my political beliefs. You need to leave immediately.
I think Watson sought out this moment. Of all the shops in Alexandria, she chose the Muslim shop. Hi, I’m Israeli, you a Muslim?
Thoughts of fame and money ran through her calculating mind.
I would guess that the customer prepaid via a banking service such as Zelle. My wife does that all the time.
Prepaid? Watson doesn’t mention that. And why would anyone prepay for a beauty shop business?
Hey genius, she paid for a service she didn’t receive, that is one reason we use credit cards.
You wanna point exactly to the line where that is stated. She made no mention of a credit card. In fact she does not state the payment method. You still drunk?
Part of the globalization of the intifada. Dearbornistan is the best example.
It took place in Alexandria, VA. Muslim population is 1.
Clearly you dont get out much.
Clearly you don’t get out much Karen.
Dear Mr. Turley, Ms. Watson is very brave and a treasure. I commend her for writing about the Afghan people when there was nothing for her to gain by doing so. She saw their humanity. I am glad she wrote about what happened at the salon. It is too bad that the shop owner was so hateful towards her. Islam is a religion of hate and dominance over those they hold contempt for. Sounds like the salon owner needs some lessons in history.
Nothing brave about Watson, she sought confrontation.
“I told her there is no genocide, I wasn’t apologizing for anything,” How could the shop owner possibly have taken offense? I don’t think Watson personally owed her an apology for the genocide, but she would have to be deliberately obtuse to deny its existence.
“Under the 1948 Genocide Convention, genocide requires both:
Acts such as:
Killing members of a group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy the group in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births
Specific intent (dolus specialis): a purpose to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part.”
Of course, there is another side, which I don’t dispute, but the genocide is real.
It would have been nice if Turley posted the video instead of him telling us what was in it.
“In the video, the person identified as Karimi says that she declared on Instagram that she would not serve those who support Israel”
Turley tends to frame issues in self-serving ways. Of course we have the first-person account from Watson, we’re still only hearing one side of the story. My mind went right to the “Christian” baker.
So you focus on the term genocide, when the article is potentially defamation. Maybe you can add to the definition by adding 19th century slavery in the USA. Seriously, that would be a interesting.
I like this one: “Turley tends to frame issues in self-serving ways.” Gee, I wonder why that is? Get your own blog then write what you want eh. Oh, you already got one? Then type away.
“Turley tends to frame issues in self-serving ways.” He is a lawyer… his training, his work as educator. May have something to do with that. As I recall, you have a singular focus on all things Black and self-serving too. I wonder why?
Did I mention “Black” anywhere in my response? Maybe it’s you that’s so race conscious that it’s all you can see.
Um…. you have a picture of your mug in your meme. Race conscious much?
You’d have preferred I hide in anonymity like yourself? Click on my photo and you get a real name and profile. So you’re saying my picture makes everything I post, race-related? I don’t even have to call you racist, you’ve self-identified.
Prefer? Now add your address and social security number. Anonymity? May I point out you don’t use your legal name here. (Didn’t see that one coming) And Just like all the other anonymous commenters here.
So a black guy references race in all his comments, makes a point of putting his mug on his comments, and calls himself blackenigma, demands reparations (I remember that those comments, they always are amusing for the clear lack of rational thought) although he’s not or was a slave, and calls opinions he doesn’t like – racist?
You certainly memorized the black man’s playbook well.
I don’t even have to call you racist, you’ve self-identified, pics, opinions etc. But, but, but, black people can’t be racist….
not your picture, but your name is a clue. and then comes the eventual post where you claim victimhood….EVERY time
Enig is your given name. Black comedy is your surgame in every response.
Hey dumbass…black is in your name. what a complete idiot, in any color.
One person’s idea of ‘genocide’ is another’s struggle against annihilation. What occurred in Gaza does not rise to the historical events of the slaughters of WWII Europe, Armenia, the Tutsi Genocide in Rwanda. The plans set down by HAMAS were clear, and the events of October 7th to be a prelude to something its leaders would demand of its own people suffer the cost. Essentially, a self-imposed genocide if necessary, to rid their world of the Jewish community.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/gazas-hamas-leader-says-palestinian-civilians-deaths-are-necessary-sacrifices-to-keep-war-raging-101718171922125.html
There is an actual definition of genocide, which I provided. It isn’t simply what you feel it is.
Actual definition. What does that mean? Its your definition, not someone else’s.
.
Enigma, you failed in your attempt to define genocide. Instead, you demonstrated how one could spin the word genocide but not be successful with those having a bit of common sense.
If you’re saying I didn’t provide a definition of my own of genocide, you’re correct. Instead, I provided the one used by the 1948nGenocide Convention. Would you have preferred I used another?
“Under the 1948 Genocide Convention, genocide requires both:
Acts such as:
Killing members of a group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy the group in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births
Specific intent (dolus specialis): a purpose to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part.”
“I left out the word both because it didn’t apply to a list”
Enigma, I must apologize for the above. When I read your comment, my computer didn’t provide the second part, so I didn’t understand your use of the word both. It is now clear. There is more than the list of actions; there is also intent. Neither the United States nor Israel met the second part. Therefore, neither was guilty of genocide. Thank you for your definition.
Every hospital in Gaza has either been destroyed or badly damaged. Wat that done without intent? Oops. The United States didn’t intend to nearly wipe out the Red Man? The Trail of Tears was a voluntary walk?
This is why the Supreme Court has been so successful in gutting the 15th Amendment. They ignore actual results and insist the only standard is intent. Then nothing they see or know qualifies as intent.
To be clear, you don’t seem to disagree that both the U.S. and Israel meet the criteria for their actions. You just disagree whether they intended to do what they did.
“Every hospital in Gaza has either been destroyed or badly damaged. Wat that done without intent? ”
Assuming your data is correct, even though it isn’t, what do you expect Israel to do when they are getting direct fire from the hospital, under it, or on the side of it? Israel is not the one using hostages, women and children, hospitals, schools, and UN facilities to aid in their attack; Hamas is responsible.
The Israeli’s fired at Hamas while Hamas was attacking them at a major hospital. At the time, the Israeli’s were installing a generator to keep the electricity on while Hamas was trying to turn it off. No other nation’s army did more than Israel in trying to protect civilians. In fact, a study shows Israel to have done the best of any modern army fighting in an urban area.
If a black man comes after you with an intent to kill, would you stand there and die, or if you had a gun, would you shoot the brother? What would you do if he were hiding behind a child? That is Israel’s dilemma, and Israel has sacrificed many to save the child.
“Specific intent (dolus specialis): a purpose to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part.””
You mean like chanting “death to Israel”, whilst lobbing rockets or cooking babies?
Spare us, truly.
Just because Israel may be more successful at it, doesnt change what Gazans are.
Half of the country of Jordan are Palestinians, which means there are more Palestinians in Jordan than Gaza. Your definition fails
Enigma, context is everything and that is where most of your arguments fall apart.
Quoting you:
“Under the 1948 Genocide Convention, genocide requires ”
“Acts such as:
Killing members of a group” (*I left out the word both because it didn’t apply to a list)
That means during WW1, WW2, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812, America committed genocide. You have a weird way with words.
These aren’t the examples I would have used in American History. I’d have looked at the Native American population (a significant portion was wiped out by disease.
Across the Americas, roughly 90–95% of the Indigenous population was wiped out between 1492 and the late 1800s.
https://scienceinsights.org/why-did-native-american-populations-collapse-after-1492/?utm_source=copilot.com
Scienceinsights? Is that a liberal publication?
Roughly 90–95% of the Indigenous population huh?
Now try climate change now and include racism.
So you are refusing to acknowledge the facts based on your thought that Scienceinsights might be a liberal publication. Nothing about them is liberal, unless you consider science a liberal ideology.
A synthesis of demographic research notes a 96% population drop for Native Americans in the United States between 1492 and 1900.
This includes:
~4 million deaths estimated between 1492 and 1776
A decline from 600,000 in 1800 to 250,000 by 1890
These numbers reflect both disease and direct violence, removal, starvation, and forced assimilation.
So how many were killed?
Because no pre‑contact census exists, historians measure “deaths” by excess mortality inferred from population collapse, not by individually recorded killings.
But using the best-supported population models:
Roughly 50–60 million Indigenous people across the Americas died between 1492 and the late 1800s — a 90–95% collapse.
In the area that became the United States, the decline was roughly 96%.
You are welcome to provide your own numbers, which would require you to read and think. Something I’m not sure you’re capable of.
Nothing about them is liberal, unless you consider science a liberal ideology. Not me, but you obviously do.
Did learn one thing over the years, science is now an opinion, not a fact.
And after all those facts, no one has proof. When was the first US census? Now count forward.
Something I’m not sure you’re capable of. Struck a nerve. Good for me. Sticks and stones ….
Rawanda
Enigma, let’s straighten your figures out so we don’t conflate them to blame the US.
Global Western Hemisphere deaths: 50–60 million
Mexico accounted for around 35–40%
United States deaths starting in 1776 were way below 1%
Direct warfare by the US accounted for 25,000 to 45,000 people.
I do not wish to diminish Indian suffering and deaths, but at the same time I don’t want you to implicate the United States in the tragic loss of tens of millions of lives.
So when state militias killed Native Americans, what’s the reason again, those don’t count?
1. California (1846–1873): 9,400–16,000 killed by state militias
California is the best‑documented example because the state funded extermination campaigns.
State legislature reimbursed militias for killing Native people.
Official state records show at least 9,400 killings, with scholars estimating up to 16,000.
This was part of a broader genocide that reduced California’s Native population by 80% in 25 years.
California alone accounts for roughly half of all documented militia killings nationwide.
2. Pacific Northwest (1847–1870s): thousands killed
Militias in:
Oregon
Washington Territory
Idaho Territory
carried out repeated attacks during the Cayuse, Yakama, Rogue River, and Nez Perce conflicts.
Documented militia killings: 2,000–4,000, though many incidents were never recorded.
3. Great Plains & Midwest (1780s–1860s): thousands killed
State militias in:
Minnesota (Dakota War of 1862)
Missouri (Osage and Kickapoo conflicts)
Illinois (Black Hawk War)
Ohio & Pennsylvania (post‑Revolutionary frontier wars)
were responsible for large‑scale massacres and retaliatory raids.
Estimated militia killings: 3,000–6,000.
4. Southeast (1776–1830s): thousands killed
During:
Cherokee–Georgia conflicts
Creek Wars
Seminole Wars (state militias heavily involved)
State militias killed 2,000–5,000 Native people, often in campaigns tied to land seizures and forced removal.
State militias were one of several categories you choose not to count. We wouldn’t want to blame the United States for those, would we.
“California (1846–1873): 9,400–16,000 killed by state militias”
California appears to be notable for a high number of killings, especially during the gold rush. The numbers I provided are coarse, 25,000 to 40,000, and might be a part of the higher number, but adding up all your numbers, they are nowhere near the millions you tried to imply.
What you need to remember is that most of the deaths occurred early and were mostly in Mexico to the southern tip of the hemisphere, and many of the deaths were due to smallpox. You should also recognize that most Americans are and were good people.
Good people don’t find reasons to discount murders so they don’t have to consider them. The millions are real, you simply chose to use a starting date after the deaths. Every part of what is now America is because people were killed to obtain it. What is not America (Mexico) when we could have expanded there is because it contained “too many Mexicans” as John C. Calhoun put it on the Senate floor in his Mexico speech. The territories that America owns and uses but won’t make states is for similar reasons of not wanting more people of color. But all that goes back to who Americans were.
If you want to distinguish everyday Americans from its leaders you can try to convince yourself but this is a representative government elected by those people. We have applied tariffs on the rest of the world including uninhabited islands. We treat our allies like shit (recently threatened to bomb the shit out of Oman and posted a map of a new American territory including portions of Oman and UAE, not even counting the “shithole countries” and our neighbors to the North and South.
Read through the comments on this page and see how many offer Second Amendment solutions to what they consider America’s problems. How many actually hate Democrats and paint them with the broadest brush and how many give any consideration to Palestinian deaths. How many objected to ending the USAID program and the resulting hundreds of thousands of deaths they don’t care about because they aren’t in their back yard. How many stand by as we implement an immigration policy targeting brown and Black people. Nations like Somalia and Haiti have their whole nations targeted for fraud or eating pets. Rick Scott has committed more fraud than all the Somalians in America and he was later elected to Florida Governor and US Senator.
Good people wouldn’t protect the rapists in the unreleased Epstein Files and make their chief protector the Attorney General. I skipped earlier threats to take over Greenland, Panama, Cuba, Venezuela, and to make Canada the 51st State.
Everyday Americans have the luxury to consider themselves good people. My next door neighbor is MAGA and he’s been a good neighbor. He’s a snowbird and I look out for his property when he’s gone. I generally think of him as a good person, but does he have any responsibility for what America does in the world or within its shores?
How long after this post will it take for me to be invited to “go back” to Africa. Its been a few days since I was last invited by one of your good people.
“These aren’t the examples I would have used in American History. “
Enigma, I wasn’t specifically commenting on America. I was commenting on your understanding of genocide.
“Across the Americas, roughly 90–95% of the Indigenous population was wiped out between 1492 and the late 1800s.”
America began in 1776. Since then, the number of Indians killed wasn’t that high, and smallpox probably killed more Indians than warfare.
Census data estimates 3O,000 to 45,000 Indians were directly killed by American (US) soldiers in battle. I am not asking you to accept those numbers, nor to understand the horrors of war or whatever crimes might have been committed by either side. I just want to keep things historically accurate.
The census never recorded “deaths in battles”. NEVER a category. You liar.
You are a stupid person. Reread: “Census data estimates 3O,000 to 45,000 Indians were directly killed by American (US) soldiers in battle.” Census data is used based on addition and subtraction. It doesn’t directly list the number of people killed in a specific battle, though that information is frequently available elsewhere.
So you’re saying don’t count the millions who died prior to 1776? I was looking at America as a place not a government. You’re also saying we should only count the Indians killed by soldiers, Let’s take a look at who you’re excluding, and how violent they were.
1. State Militias
State‑organized militias were responsible for large‑scale massacres and campaigns, often independent of federal command.
Examples:
Pennsylvania militia — Gnadenhutten Massacre (1782)
Georgia militia — repeated attacks on Muscogee (Creek) towns
California state militias — dozens of massacres during the Gold Rush era
State militias were often more violent than federal troops because they operated with fewer constraints and were driven by settler demands.
2. Settler Vigilantes & Posses
Private settler groups carried out:
lynchings
retaliatory raids
organized extermination campaigns
Examples:
California vigilante companies (1850s–1870s)
Oregon settler mobs attacking tribes during the Rogue River Wars
Texas settler posses targeting Comanche, Kiowa, and Apache communities
These groups often acted with state approval, reimbursement, or legal immunity.
3. Local and Territorial Governments
Territorial governors and legislatures:
funded extermination campaigns
issued bounties for Native scalps
authorized forced removals
California’s government spent over $1.5 million (1850s dollars) reimbursing militias and vigilantes for killing Native people.
4. Private Companies & Corporate Militias
Corporate interests used violence to secure land, labor, and resources.
Examples:
Railroad companies hiring armed guards to clear Indigenous land
Mining companies in the West using private security forces
Ranching syndicates attacking tribes who resisted encroachment
These groups operated like paramilitary forces.
5. Slave Raiders & Indian Slave Traders
Even after 1776, Native people were:
kidnapped
sold into slavery
trafficked across state and territorial lines
Perpetrators included:
American slave raiders in the Southeast
Mexican and American raiders in the Southwest
California settlers who enslaved Native children under the 1850 “Act for the Government and Protection of Indians”
Slavery and murder were deeply intertwined.
6. Allied Native Groups (under U.S. pressure or longstanding conflict)
Some Native nations fought others due to:
U.S. alliances
forced relocations
resource scarcity
pre‑existing rivalries intensified by colonial expansion
Important nuance:
These conflicts were not equivalent to settler violence — they occurred within a context of U.S. manipulation, displacement, and survival pressures.
7. Individual Settlers
Beyond organized groups, thousands of killings were committed by:
ranchers
miners
trappers
homesteaders
Often justified as:
“protecting property”
“retaliation”
“clearing land”
These killings rarely resulted in prosecution.
After 1776, the killing of Native Americans was not limited to U.S. soldiers. It was carried out by state militias, vigilantes, territorial governments, corporate forces, slave raiders, and individual settlers — a decentralized system of violence that made removal and extermination a social project, not just a military one.
Again, you idiot, just because the settlers were better at killing doesnt mean anything. Most warring NA’s were not interested in living peacefully. They would have genocided the fvck out of the white man if they could have. GFY.
According to enema in black, every warring group or country who WINS is committing genocide, and the violent, hateful, warmongering terrorists on the other side, are not.
This is rich! American Jews have generally supported open borders for decades and now the chickens are coming home to roost. The people you have supported displacing the native population don’t like you and not supportive of what they see as a colonial settler project.
antonio
What does history have to do with the present?
The counsel of George Santayana being observed, gaining familiarity with the work of the controversial Dr. Tareq al-Suwaidan, a well known Kuwaiti Islamist preacher, whose Youtube videos are accessible, as well as the Eschatology of Shia Islam and ‘The Twelvers’, might help answer your question.
Antonio, what you said is a falsehood. Individually, Jews do not support open borders and stand against criminal violations of the law. Your mistake is that you conflate significant Jewish support for the the Democrat ticket, which recently supported the illegal entry of immigrants. You should be happy to note that Jewish support for the Democrat Party is waning.
It needs to more than wane, but there are some on the right who have gone insane too.
I agree on both points. But we must understand that many Jews are secular. Religious Jews are more apt to vote differently. I am Jewish and was ‘born a Democrat’. My voting habits were independent, and I changed registration based on who I wanted in a certain primary. I became a fully Republican voter without commitment to the party more recently because I believe the Democrats are dangerous and, if given the chance, will destroy our Republic. I wouldn’t vote for my best friend for dogcatcher if he were a Democrat. Democrats must be denied the legitimacy they seek.
I am just waiting for some s@@tlib to explain why refusing to serve this lady is ok but refusing to serve blacks in a restaurant is not. And no, I am not a “nazi” for asking the question.
antonio
Not a Nazi huh? They why did yo refer to liberals as “s@@tlib”? You’re so stupid you don’t realize you are a Nazi.
You’re so stupid you think writing s@@tlib has anything to do with Nazism.
You’re so stupid you think writing s@@tlib has nothing to do with Nazism.
Yes, you are.