Conservatives have picked a curious new slogan to oppose President Barack Obama: “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” It is a quote from Psalm 109:8, but conservatives leave off the full passage: “Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.” It is a damnation or imprecatory prayer.
In this case, conservatives are citing a passage that would seem to advocate Obama’s death. While obviously not the intended meaning, it is an interesting example of how these passages are used with no consideration of their actual meaning.
It is often interesting to see religious people use passages with little understanding of their meaning or to sanitize the passage to omit the violent Biblical message. This was the case recently in the controversy over cheerleaders like Georgia’s Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe High School who use Biblical verses as part of their cheers, here. They use such passages as Ezra 10:4: “Rise up; this matter is in your hands. We will support you, so take courage and do it.” The only problem is that this Biblical passage describes how Ezra followed the lead of God to banish foreign women and their innocent children for not being pure.
The Psalm is one of David and is an imprecatory prayer for God to destroy his enemies in the most horrible ways. We have seen the use of imprecatory prayers against Obama and others recently, here.
Here is the whole Psalm:
Help Me, O Lord My God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.109:1 Be not silent, O God of my praise!
2 For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me,
speaking against me with lying tongues.
3 They encircle me with words of hate,
and attack me without cause.
4 In return for my love they accuse me,
but I give myself to prayer. [1]
5 So they reward me evil for good,
and hatred for my love.6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few;
may another take his office!
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg,
seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him,
nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off;
may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
but pursued the poor and needy
and the brokenhearted, to put them to death.
17 He loved to curse; let curses come [2] upon him!
He did not delight in blessing; may it be far [3] from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat;
may it soak [4] into his body like water,
like oil into his bones!
19 May it be like a garment that he wraps around him,
like a belt that he puts on every day!
20 May this be the reward of my accusers from the Lord,
of those who speak evil against my life!21 But you, O God my Lord,
deal on my behalf for your name’s sake;
because your steadfast love is good, deliver me!
22 For I am poor and needy,
and my heart is stricken within me.
23 I am gone like a shadow at evening;
I am shaken off like a locust.
24 My knees are weak through fasting;
my body has become gaunt, with no fat.
25 I am an object of scorn to my accusers;
when they see me, they wag their heads.26 Help me, O Lord my God!
Save me according to your steadfast love!
27 Let them know that this is your hand;
you, O Lord, have done it!
28 Let them curse, but you will bless!
They arise and are put to shame, but your servant will be glad!
29 May my accusers be clothed with dishonor;
may they be wrapped in their own shame as in a cloak!30 With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord;
I will praise him in the midst of the throng.
31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy one,
to save him from those who condemn his soul to death.
Of course, the part about “May the creditor seize all that he has” appears to be working, at least for the Chinese government holding our debt. It is always nice to see the religious call for “his children wander about and beg, seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!” After all, there is no vengeance and violence quite like Biblical vengeance and violence.
For the full story, click here.
This is despicable. This culture is a death-cult. I see it everywhere. So many religious people are wedded to death, not life. But it isn’t just the religious zealots of every stripe who feel this way. Our own govt. is bloated on spending for the death and destruction of other human beings. Our govt. tortures and protects those who order it. We worship violence. We must all turn away from the death-cult.
People, secular and religious should want a good life for others.
Have these people ever considered peaceful protest or the possibility of impeachment?
We must all turn away from the death-cult.
—
Amen.
While obviously not the intended meaning, …
I’m not so sure.
Ah, compassionate conservatism we hardly knew ye.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mohandas Gandhi
Now, what was all that crap put out by christians about the bible being a book of peace and that the quran was not?
It’s funny how fundamentalism and death cults are so cozy no matter the flavor of religion. Not funny in the ha ha sense, of course.
Jill: “…Our own govt. is bloated on spending for the death and destruction of other human beings…People, secular and religious should want a good life for others.”
——
Absolutely. Every time I see talking heads whining about how we are going to pay for health care (even the stripped down, not quite half-measure it’s morphed into) I keep waiting for the the talking head with the opposing view to say “Get the heck out of Vietnam and Vietnam” Strike that; Iraq and Afghanistan. Sorry, I confuse them in my mind. (Sarcasm intended)
++++++++++++
Nal: “While obviously not the intended meaning, …
I’m not so sure.”
——
Nal’s right IMO, these people know exactly what they are advocating with Psalm 109. You’re too kind Professor.
I must agree with Nal and with Lottakatz, this is intentionally a call to harm our President. Those behind it are seeking violence, as I have been writing for some time now. The mentality is that of “lynch mobs” who hung people for having a darker skin tone. A strong percentage of the Anti-Obama people, perhaps 10% of the entire American population hate him for his skin color and decry his legitimacy as President because of it. The hope among the public opinion leaders of this gaggle of bigots is to inflame some of the “crazies” among them to actually take action and try to harm our President. This is in effect treason and I can only hope that those charged with President Obama’s protection are reacting proactively to keeping him safe. I lived through the 60′s as an adult and I don’t want to have to deal with those nightmares again,
nor do I think that the country could survive viably were it to happen.
Like I said, when the neoCons are not punished they see it as encouraging more of the insane.
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/11/when-accountability-is-plague-2.html
where are the “moderates” and the so-called “liberal evangelicals”. I don’t see them speaking out about this. Chritianity has, sadly, become bankrupt and just as state-sponsored religion has withered more quickly than religion unassociated with the statem, the theorcratic fundies seem to be headed toward killing off any kind of legitimate religion with this stuff.
On her 11/17/2009 show, Rachel Maddow discussed this disturbing trend with Frank Schaeffer. FS comes on a few minutes into this segment: “This is serious business…the threat level faced by the Secret Service has gone up 400%; higher than any other time in 52 years for any President…these are not jokes…this bumper sticker says to some of them ‘it’s Open Season’ … it is the American version of the Taliban…Where are the people speaking out about these things!..”
And these people are allowed to vote? Wow, next you’ll tell me that they live and are capable of breeding. Damn.
the other side of this is that they are advocating what Nal says they are advocating but are too stupid to have the right Psalm. Psalm 109 is for a leader (Obama) asking that his enemies be destroyed, not the other way around.
In my mind this bumper sticker is actually in support of the president whether that was the intention or not. I don’t think you can cherry pick a verse out of a Psalm and disregard the intent of the Psalm. Which in this case is clearly a prayer for a leader’s (David) enemies to be taken care of by God.
From the Monitor’s full article, a quote from Deborah Lauter, director of civil rights at the Anti-Defamation League:
““The problem is you don’t know if people who are donning that message in a shirt or on a bumper sticker are fully aware of the quote or what follows.”
=================================================================
No, that is not the problem.
Whoever wears the shirt or uses the bumper sticker is advocating for an “imprecatory prayer for God to destroy his enemies in the most horrible ways.” (Notice that the “his” in the preceding sentence is not capitalized so it is not referring to God’s enemies but to the enemies of the person uttering the prayer.) Thus advocating for the destruction of Obama and his family is the prayer one is supporting.
Failure to understand the Psalm’s meaning is ignorance that could have been avoided by simply reading the Psalm in its entirety and applying a tiny bit of intellectual reasoning while reading. Failure to do so is not a problem; it is, simply, stupidity.
The real problem is in others excusing such dull wittedness thus absolving the intercessor of any personal responsibility for his/her actions.
It’s always fascinating when we get to see America’s deeply racist, violent underbelly exposing itself.
Am I crazy to speculate that part of why we are in conflict with groups like al Qaeda is that a fair number of Americans are the hateful, ignorant, fundamentalist twins of the “jihadis”.
Just yesterday these pages were rife with profound criticism for Scientology as if it was the only dangerous cult.
“While obviously not the intended meaning”
Oh, you are very wrong about that, sir. This is precisely their intended meaning.
LETHAL WEAPON, 3:16–Ninja Prayer! Starring Mel Gibson, in theaters of the absurd now.
The force is strong with this one, St. Luke.
Indeed Mark, John’s powers were a revelation to me. He is a beast for God.
Bibleman is thinking of dumping Cypher for him.
I’ve personally seen this kind of lunacy before in the rural south in the 1960′s-early 1970′s as reality was beginning to set in that the constitution meant ALL people, not just WHITE people… Everything started to turn toward the religious and prayers for ‘death to the outsiders” but much worse than these amateur renderings….
A couple of bumper stickers here, a t-shirt there and a broken coffee mug or two is one story… When these nut-bags start lynching people in public, during the day, that’s when we have a serious issue that we have to deal with as a culture.
This is just so, so, so, so against everything the Christ I learned about. Do I need to read this in order to develop a better understanding of the Christianity that they so profess?
Just imagine what the Right would have done if the Left had used this Psalm and its underlying message on George W. Bush. The Right would have busted a lung screaming about it. I would only ask WWJD?
Hypocrisy does not discriminate between religions. Intelligence doesn’t follow either.
As the great George Carlin said in his “10 Commandments”, for the “devout” murder is also “negotiable”.
Don’t you just love that bit that goes “Appoint a wicked man against him”?! Just about sums up your far right and the previous administration.
It never fails to amuse and disgust me how the religeous right follow this 2000 year old Socialist – you know, the guy who chucked the money lenders out of the temple – and twist his words to suit themselves.
Reminds me of the old Roy Harper line; “And the world that Christ fought is supported by using his name”. It’s from McGoohans Blues – a typical Harper 15 minute rant.
“I don’t think you can cherry pick a verse out of a Psalm and disregard the intent of the Psalm. Which in this case is clearly a prayer for a leader’s (David) enemies to be taken care of by God.”
Byron,
Please, do you really believe this?
I read all the above comments, and there were many very insightful ones, some were angry (with just cause).
A TRUE Christian loves our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and tries to model themselves to the best of their ability after Him. All of us who try, in our finite limited humanity no doubt try and fail a great deal.
I feel the taking of Ps 109 out of context (or any other scripture) is an extremely dangerous thing to do. The Bible is very explicit about how these people will be dealt with, as I feel that this is either “taking away” from the Word or “adding to it”, as it is certainly not what the scripture means.
The Bible does tell us to pray for our govt. and our officials, and leaders, and I try to do that.
While I have never, and will never support Pres. Obama, I will pray for him for guidance, and a change of heart about the things that I do not agree with, or if the change needs to be in me, then so be it. I will try to change.
I feel that he has made many bad judgements, both in his relationships with various individuals, as well as those concerning our country. However, I also FIRMLY believe that God put him in the office of our Pres., as well as GW Bush, and that there is a reason for that. I think that certain things have to take place for Jesus to come back, and that all the things we are complaining about are a part of that. I also KNOW that Our Lord is Sovereing and that He is in charge, and that brings me so much encouragement. If I allowed it, the Moral bankruptcy of our nation and all that goes with it would soon get me down. When I start to get overwhelmed about things, I just bring that to mind. I believe this is all true as we are living in the end times, and things must get worse before they get better.
All we can do is stay close to our Lord and let him lead and guide and inform us, so that we will get thru anything that we must get thru.
Hope this view helps someone a little bit.
lilove,
Just what was the reason God put George W. into office? Was it to kill hundred of thousands of innocents? Was it to spy on all Americans? Or did God “put” W. into office in order that he could torture the evildoers? Please explain for me.
The wikiman says that Florida the First Election was stolen by the US Supreme Court’s refusal to act appropriately and that Dick Cheney had someone in Ohio steal ballot boxes like LBJ did in Texas thereby stealing a second election.
wow man still foolin the nation
Linda, who is fooling who other than a fool fooling himself?
“If I allowed it, the Moral bankruptcy of our nation and all that goes with it would soon get me down.”
ilove,
Why do you hate America?
Mike, sorry if I came off like I hate America. I love this country. God has blessed us sooo much, and so many people have fallen away from Him. It is the sin that I hate. I am afraid that God is just about fed up with it, (sin, not America) and will withdraw His grace from us. Then What?
Unfortunately I am neither a historian or a debater, but I am 75+ yrs. and have lived a long time, and am much more aware of what is going on spiritually than ever before in my life. I am just now having the time to explore these things than I had years ago. Raising children, taking care of my husband, and just the business of daily living have taken a lot of time away from this pursuit.
Thanks for your input.
Lilove
Mike S:
““I don’t think you can cherry pick a verse out of a Psalm and disregard the intent of the Psalm. Which in this case is clearly a prayer for a leader’s (David) enemies to be taken care of by God.”
Byron,
Please, do you really believe this?”
I would hope that people don’t actually want ill to befall the president. So I hold out the hope that they don’t mean it like it appears to be how they mean it.
But I am resigned to the fact that there are crazies everywhere who would want those they don’t agree with put up against a wall and shot at dawn or at least by 6 pm.
I don’t know what all the fuss is about. These Bible thumpers never read the damn thing anyway (as evidenced by their utter shock when I quote from it), so I’m sure most think it’s some nice little way to help the President. People who actually read might know it’s an insult or call to action, but we’d probably just pass it off as another squishy mind saturated with religious hate.
messpo,
Amen, Brotha.
Off Topic but related.
Iran ex-official gets 6 years in jail for protests
TEHRAN, Iran – An Iranian court sentenced a former vice president to six years in jail as part of a mass trial of opposition figures accused of fomenting the unrest after the disputed June presidential election, the defendant’s lawyer said Sunday.
…….
“Abtahi made televised confessions after his arrest in which he admitted provoking people to riot. But his family and other opposition figures said the statements were coerced and similar claims have been made about other defendants’ confessions during the trial.”
Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091122/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_elections
Now, what must we do to go over there and restore democracy. We should know what they should have as we once had what we want them to have. Thats why we are the best.
Byron,
Birthers, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh answer the question. They all want the President dead, but lack the guts to admit it.
Byron, Mike Spindell wants birthers, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck dead. He’s probably willing to admit it.
Ilove,
I really have no desire to deny the comfort you find in your religion. However, having led such a busy life as you imply it is quite possible that there are certain historical truths that you might not be aware of.
The first is that there have been many times in history since the advent of Jesus, where people have expected the end of the world due to its’ sin. One was when 1,000 Ad occurred. A second was in 1666. Many others existed. As we age, and I am aged myself, we tend to come to believe that life was somehow better when we were young. The truth is quite different if you think about it and/or read history. This age is no more wicked than previous ages, in fact one can argue that humanity lives a more moral life now. The sad truth is that many of our religious leaders, use our all too human traits to deceive us and make us afraid. They do this for wealth and/or power. Particularly deceiving is the belief that God will withdraw his grace from us.
The teachings of Jesus and they way he led his life are defined by the Gospels, which claim to be the actual retelling of his life by his chosen companions. If Jesus was anything he was a being of love, not hatred. Paul never knew Jesus, but many believe he was inspired by Jesus spirit.
The book you know as the Christian bible was put together by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, perhaps 300 years after Jesus death.
It was put together by the order of the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was a sun worshipper and edited to make the Romans of Jesus time seem to be good. Included in it was The Book of Revelations, which tells of horror and destruction of most of humanity by Jesus upon his return.
Historians have shown that it was written at leasr 150 to two hundred years after Jesus died on the cross. It was written as a condemnation of Rome itself. Constantine’s minions, he had threatened torture and death to Christian Bishops if they did not go along, included Revelations as a means to scare people into belief and to control them.
Let me ask you, how can a being that was said to be pure love, such as Jesus, be turned into a bloodthirsty avenger as he is portrayed in Revelations? Remember Jesus formulated the “Golden Rule,” which is an indicator of a loving God, not a vengeful one. Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism protested what the “Roman” Catholics had done to the Christian Bible and their interpretation of Jesus.
Today, too many purported Christian Leaders have tried to portray Jesus as a political being, which the Gospels prove he was not. They do this for the purposes of their own ego and selfishness and try to scare pious people into doing their bidding, rather than reading their Gospels (Good News) and making their own religious judgments. Be watchful of those who use Jesus name to promote their own politics, for they are false prophets.
I am glad that you find comfort in God as you age, but please remember that if God created us, He loves us and means us no harm, even thouse who sin through lack of thought.
“Byron, Mike Spindell wants birthers, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck dead. He’s probably willing to admit it.”
Paully,
I don’t wish death on anybody, not even those above who are loathsome human beings. I believe that wishing death on people would make me a person like the people I detest. Why would I want to be racist disturbed people like the birthers? A racist, sexually deviant, drug addicted whore like Rush Limbaugh, or simply a whore like Glenn Beck? To wish their deaths would make me like them, just as approving their beliefs make those who follow them just as vile as they are.
I wonder if these fundamentalists really know what Jesus was all about. Jesus came to break up the Old Covenant and institute a new one. Thus, it’s actually anti-Christian for a Christian to read Old Testament “literally.” But, then again, American fundamentalism isn’t Christian; it’s a syncretism of nationalism and religious/biblical tenets badly remixed: it’s a Cargo cult!
Paully,
Unless you are joking—and I see no evidence of that—you have certainly misjudged Mike Spindell.
As a conservative Republican, I am more likely to want vengeance against the miscreant, score 25 IQers that have hijacked my Republican Party than Mike S. would ever consider.
FFLEO:
how can you blame a dumb a . . . for doing what a dumb a . . . does?
Isnt it kind of like punishing a dog for chasing a cat?
ffleo, I know lots of birthers, and none of them want Obama dead. Most of them just want answers. When we start to castigate those who ask relevant questions, we just do an end-around on censorship.
@ Paully:
Are you implying that birthers are asking “relevant questions”? Is that a joke? Okay, maybe it isn’t a joke and those crazy people are actually sane. So, what are they going to do about it? Impeach Obama?…
@ Paully
Even from Australia, the “problem” with the Birthers (an embarassment for the USA) was not the questioning, but the non-acceptance of the answers.
Pete and Takoma, Obama’s COLB says that it was filed, but never accepted. This isn’t some crazy question that has been answered. It’s a question that has been avoided.
Who can answer that question?
I would assume that Hawaii can tell us why a COLB was filed, but not accepted. Wouldn’t you?
I know the question has been asked. The Director of the Department of Health, the Attorney General’s Office, and the Lt. Governor’s Office have all been asked for any statute, administrative rule, or court opinon that controls when a birth report is filed with the registrar, but not accepted by the state registrar.
All of them were asked on Oct. 16th. The AG and the Lt. Governor’s Office have stated that they don’t maintain those records. The Department of Health has not responded to the request. The statute requires them to respond within 10 days.
On 11/5 a formal request for assistance was filed with the Office of Information Practices. The next day, the Director of that office resigned. As of today, the Director of the Department of Health, nor the Office of Information Practices has responded.
The DOH issues the COLBs. Do you think they don’t know what controls the difference between a filed report, and an accepted report of birth?
As you can see, it’s not a matter of accepting the answer. It’s a matter of the question never being answered.
Mike, I certainly enjoyed your post of 11/22, and realize that you are very knowledgable about the Bible. As I said in one of my posts, I am not a historian or a debater, but I do admire people of tolerance and understanding, as that was what I realized from your post.
I was brought up with a religion of fear, so I know exactly what you are talking about, but got away from those denominations as soon as I was old enough. I do find a great deal of comfort from my Bible and now know a Jesus and Lord of love, not fear. Also a God of justice. I study my Bible regularly and find great comfort in it.
Thank you for your post.
Lilove
Lilove,
Thank you for your compliment, I was trying to convey those sentiments. Without putting a moral tone on it I think that humanity can be roughly divided into two groups. Those who want us to live in harmony under the Golden Rule and those whose vanity and greed want chaos. While all great religious prophets have tried to improve our human condition, in many cases those that followed each one perverted the purity of the message for their own selfishness. Alas this is the human condition it seems with every aspect of our lives.
Political people of both the left and the right have also perverted the ideals they purport to espouse, primarily in the service of their own egos. My own dream, which I will never live to see, is of a humanity that can compromise outlooks by keeping in mind the greater good of all of humanity and respect/esteem eachother’s differences. only then might we humans achieve a higher purpose.
“I was brought up with a religion of fear, so I know exactly what you are talking about, but got away from those denominations as soon as I was old enough.”
That sentence alone says all one needs to know about your intelligence.
Our Holy Books, no matter of what faith, are meant to be studied and understood by each individual. The test of ones’ faith and perception of the world is how they perceive the meaning of the message being taught. Jesus taught in parables that caused people to have to think to find their meaning. Buddha used the same technique but they are called “koans.” Confuscious also used parables as examples of his teachings, as have the wisest of Rabbi’s and Imams. Every one of these teachings had a simple commandment at their base and that was, however
phrased: Treat others, the way you would want to be treated.
To me, none of us could begin to understand the thinking of a being that can create a Universe, but my sense is that this commandment would be the basis for drawing closer to that being.
Paully,
If you’re honest in your curiosity, may I suggest you do a search on this site for “Natural Born,” and skim through any one of the longer threads, and reading any post by Vince or Mike A. Vince in particular has done an amazing amount of research on the subject. You’ll find few better tutorials on the issue than is found in the comments sections on JT’s blog.
By the way, if the answers to certain people seem terse, just know that there is more history than just in those comments. Including threats, racist comments, and just plain deliberate obtuseness. That Vince remains as polite as he did is truly stunning.
I don’t know this for sure, but I’d be willing to bet some of those people caring around signs referencing “water the tree of liberty” or the Turner Diaries are birthers as well as tea baggers (yes I know what that means, but they should have been a little more careful when picking a name for their movement). So while you might not know any birthers that explicitly wish Obama harm, that doesn’t mean they’re not out there.
Paully,
I notice you replied to my comment about your misunderstanding of me, to others and not directly to me. Your realize of course that your comment was a slur and certainly drawn from nothing I’ve written. Though I’m normally not given to superstition, I do have a deep seated believe that to wish death on those I disdain, somehow would rebound on me and so I do not do so. Since you seem partial to finding meaning in people’s words, that clearly do not exist, let me clarify my meaning. I am not and have never been a pacifist, lest you think me a “namby pamby” liberal. I would definitely use violence to protect those I love, or myself from others violence and at times have done so in legitimate self defense. However, I take no pleasure in bringing harm to others, nor do I find in my heart any elation at harming even those who deserve harm, it is not in my nature.
“I know lots of birthers, and none of them want Obama dead.”
While this is quite possibly literally true, the fact remains that the rhetoric used by this movement goes far beyond political opposition and expresses a hatred of the President that borders on and offtimes crosses the line of treason. Comparing the President to Adolph Hitler is an example of this and actually is a slur upon those who were killed by this monster. It is ideological overkill to such an extent that it encourages the least stable among the movement towards the belief that redress by violence is a viable option.
Secondly, you are too intelligent not to be begging this question since you are no doubt aware that to espouse the death of this, or any President is per se criminally actionable. So the birther movement skates around this intent, but their meaning is clear.
Finally, you again bring up the COLB nonsesense:
“Obama’s COLB says that it was filed, but never accepted. This isn’t some crazy question that has been answered. It’s a question that has been avoided.”
Actually this is a crazy question that has been answered time and again on many threads here and in other venues. The real issue is the inability of the birther movement to accept the facts and instead be led by the nose by unstable, self seekers like Taitz and Donofrio. Just Google Vince Treacy for a full and complete refutation of the entire birther argument.
Finally, if you have comments regarding me I would appreciate it if you directed them at me, so that I can directly disabuse you of your
faulty conceptions.
Paully,
One example of how wrong you are from another thread today in a comment by Vince Treacy.”
“Drake has stopped praying for the President’s death. He now wants him to live long enough for a treason trial.
Too bad he didn’t promise to hold his breath until that happened.
It turns out that Drake is also a “birther,” represented, with spectacular lack of success, by our old friend from many other threads, Orly Taitz, in the case dismissed by Judge Carter in California. Small galaxy.
Also note that his mentor, Rev. Manning, has been visited by authorities for his death-themed sermons.
Q
Wiley Drake lifts call for ‘imprecatory prayer’ against President Obama
By Bob Allen
Friday, November 20, 2009
BUENA PARK, Calif. (ABP) — A former Southern Baptist Convention officer who made headlines in June when he said on national radio that he was praying for Barack Obama to die now says he wants to see the president live long enough to stand trial for treason.
Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., was second vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention in 2006-2007.
Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., issued a press release Nov. 19 calling for an end to “imprecatory prayer” — words of judgment from the Book of Psalms prayed back to God, directed toward Obama.
Drake said he is now “calling for all of God’s people and prayer warriors to cease the imprecatory prayer, and pray for Mr. Obama’s protection until he can be properly tried for treason.”
Drake attributed his change of heart to “spiritual counsel” of James David Manning, pastor at ATLAH World Missionary Church in New York, contained in a 16 1/2-minute video recorded Nov. 18.
…
Manning preached a series of harsh sermons last year against then-candidate Obama that prompted Americans United for the Separation of Church and State to ask the IRS to investigate him for violating rules governing tax-exempt charities against electioneering. He says he was visited by officials from the Department of Homeland Security after a recent video message in which he advised people who strongly oppose Obama to “be ready to die.”
…
Drake, a third-party candidate for vice president from the American Independent Party on the California ballot in the 2008 presidential election, recently lost a round in an ongoing legal battle challenging the legitimacy of Obama’s presidency.
U.S. District Judge David Carter dismissed a lawsuit filed by Drake and other plaintiffs Oct. 29, saying the Constitution does not give federal courts, but only Congress, the authority to remove a sitting president….UQ
http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4588&Itemid=53
We owe this link to Dr. Conspiracy at his excellent website:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/11/eligibility-lawsuit-plaintiff-drake-stops-praying-for-obama-to-die/
The Doctor posted a very wise and thoughtful afterword to this story that should be considered by all who view this thread: “[I was a Baptist for many years, and I never heard of anyone praying for the harm of another human being. Drake represents Baptists no more than Obama denialists represent the country in general. Martin Luther included the following in hymn he wrote: "Give to our Prince and all [political] authorities peace and good government that we under them may live a calm in quiet life in all blessedness and modesty.”]”
Gyges, Thanks for the links. Way too much information to digest in a short period of time. I did look to see if any answer to that presented to Hawaii had been answered. It had not.
The question is not a determination of law, but a determination of fact.
We know that Obama’s COLB says Date Filed by Registrar, and we know that most Hawaiian COLBs say Date Accepted by State Registrar. I should say MOST of the Hawaiian COLBs that I have seen say Date Accepted. Nevertheless, it is a variable that should be explained, and I can find no good reason for the issuing authority to not explain it.
I guess that makes me a birther. I sure don’t want any harm to come to Obama.
Paully,
Well if we say Vince’s name three times while spinning around in front of a mirror, he might appear.
Also, don’t you find it odd that the reason for Obama’s supposedly ineligibility seems to shift on a weekly basis? I mean, if they had had a valid argument at the beginning, wouldn’t they have stuck to it and if the argument d’jour was a good one, why didn’t they lead with it? Their entire conduct just makes it seem like they’re out to find ANY excuse to remove Obama.
Mike Spindell, I’m sure you can find a birther that wants Obama to be harmed. I’m sure we could also find a liberal, progressive, lawyer, police officer, engineer, etc. that would like to see Obama harmed. I don’t think it is reasonable to attribute the statements of the few, or the one, to the whole.
You said “[T]he fact remains that the rhetoric used by this movement goes far beyond political opposition and expresses a hatred of the President that borders on and offtimes crosses the line of treason”.
The rhetoric comes from a few. Probably less than 1% of the whole. How big is the birther movement? Could it be millions? The only “voices” of the birther movement you know are those who make a living by stirring the pot. Orly Taitz, Wiley Drake, and Pastor Manning do not represent me, and I doubt they represent a large population of those who consider themselves to be birthers.
I said “Obama’s COLB says that it was filed, but never accepted. This isn’t some crazy question that has been answered. It’s a question that has been avoided.”
Mike Spindell answered “Actually this is a crazy question that has been answered time and again on many threads here and in other venues. The real issue is the inability of the birther movement to accept the facts and instead be led by the nose by unstable, self seekers like Taitz and Donofrio. Just Google Vince Treacy for a full and complete refutation of the entire birther argument.”
Mike Spindell, If you think this is a crazy question that has already been answered then I’m sure you are more than capable of answering it. Please tell me what dictates Date Filed vs. Date Accepted, and please provide with the authority used to support the answer.
It is a fact that Obama’s COLB states that his birth was filed, but it does not say that it was accepted. I could specultate on the reasons it was not accepted, but I would rather see why Hawaii makes the determination.
Do you think it is acceptable for a state to generate a form, but not be able to tell you about the variables on that form?
My personal response to the kind of people the article is talking about who use the Bible to back up their agendas is: Obama is our elected President so all Christians should remember what the Bible says about respect and obedience to authority as outlined in the Book of Romans Chapter 13, versus 1-7.
Gyges, I don’t know about other people, and I don’t know why and when they present different arguments.
We can call this my argument if you like. I wasn’t aware that some Hawaiian COLBs say Date Filed and other say Date Accepted before the election. I also wasn’t aware that my hot water heater was leaking 6 months ago. All I can do is address what I find, when I find it.
I really have looked for the answer. I probably wouldn’t be so concerned had I not noticed that the other COLBs that say Date Filed were either from extrateritorial births, with no Island of birth identified, or they were births at a military hospital. I’m reasonably sure that the state should be able to answer the question, but they have violated their own law to avoid giving an answer.
Gyges, I probably should have supported my last statement about Hawaii violating their own law.
§92F-12 Disclosure required. (a) Any other provision in this chapter to the contrary notwithstanding, each agency shall make available for public inspection and duplication during regular business hours:
(1) Rules of procedure, substantive rules of general applicability, statements of general policy, and interpretations of general applicability adopted by the agency;
Jim Byrne:
glad to see you back!
Folks,
Why are you allowing Paully to turn this into yet another ‘birther’ thread?
Difficult people are a blessing as they teach us the value of patience. However, fortunately for us, “difficult” is a pliant term in this context.
FFLEO:
I tried to do my little part.
Byron,
You’re one to talk (yeah, I know different circumstances).
ffleo, I responded to a statement that was made regarding birthers. If you want to tell me that is not acceptable here I will comply.
FFLEO has a point there, fellas. The professional trolls seem to be on hiatus/regrouping as of late. Don’t feed an ambitious amateur like Jimmy lest one of you unsuspecting childrens lure him out from under his bridge. I would like to point out however that true to pattern, He Who Shall Be Named Jimmy chose a thread directly related to religious extremism to sell his wares.
Coincidence?
The choice in audience is as critical as the choice in message when disseminating propaganda.
And think about how search engines work.
Containment, isolation and minimalization are tactically better suited than engagement. Don’t let him control focus.
Just a suggestion.
FFLEO,
I was trying to formulate a post comparing the birthers to fundamentalist Christians. I was thinking something along the lines of,
“Paully,
You’re falling into the same trap as the people who put up the Pray for Obama signs, not reading the whole text your quoting. At the bottom of the COLB is the important part.”
Obviously I’d touch it up a bit more, but that’s the rough outline.
Link to Vince’s rather complete trouncings of the birther issue when someone (pro or amateur) tries to troll with that bait. It’s an efficiency to not keep fighting the same battle over and over again especially since a masterful defeat has already been administered by a General on the field.
Paully,
Here are 3 ‘birther’ threads ranging from 74 to 500+ comments. Please post there with your comments for continuity. That way your comments and those of others do not get lost in a sea of unrelated threads.
Thanks.
http://jonathanturley.org/?s=birther
Buddha,
See my first response. (btw does anything about it stick out? I might not call them out on it, but I’m usually ahead of the curve on nom de’internets). We all get the urge to bait a troll occasionally, in this case I saw a great set up for the “read the whole thing” comment, it just took a few posts to get him there.
Gyges,
lol
I’d missed the “say Vince’s name three times” post.
So in the Spirit of Gilda, “Nevermind.”
Buddha,
Missed my first and second post then (the spinning around one was the second post).
To save you a little trouble.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/11/19/psalm-like-it-hot-conservatives-rally-around-psalm-109/#comment-92171
Gyges:
just cut me to the quick.
I have read all the posts re: Pres. Obama’s COLB. Lets uncomplicate all the discussion and answer my simple question:
As many people who have asked for his COLB, why has Pres. Obama not produced it. It is a very simple thing to do. (After all these years I have mine and could produce it for anyone who asks in just a matter of minutes.) It is such a simple request and could so easily settle peoples’ minds, as the ramifications of a birth certificate can mean so much. Just produce it and be done with it.
As it is, it tends to make me wonder what the reason for not doing so could possibly be?
Peoples’ imaginations are many times worse than the reality generally.
Lilove
COLB comments are best posted here:
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/09/27/client-fires-orly-taitz-and-threatens-bar-complaint-against-her-as-judge-explores-sanctions/#comment-92393
Thanks.