You may recall how recently an array of high ranking Israeli officials in the Netanyahu government, including National Security Council head Ya’akov Amidror and Interior Minister Eli Yishai, briefed ultra-Orthodox rabbi and Shas leader Ovadia Yosef on the proposed war with Iran in the hopes of receiving his blessing. Both the war (which Netanyahu reportedly wants before the U.S. presidential election) and the need to get nod from a religious leader were criticized, including by some of us who noted the extreme views of Yosef. Now, Yosef has called upon Jews to pray for the death of Iranians and the destruction of the nation of Iran. Now we have spiritual leaders is both countries calling on God to annihilate whole countries as examples of divine and moral justice.
Yosef told his followers that good Jews should pray for destruction of the enemies of Israel, particularly Iran and Hezbollah. The lesson in morality came with his weekly sermon and specified that the prayers should arrange for the annihilation of the Iranian during Rosh Hashana (Jewish New Year). Apparently just to be clear in the prayers to avoid the annihiation of similarly sounding countries, Yoseh stressed “When we say ‘may our enemies be struck down’ on Rosh Hashana, it shall be directed at Iran, the evil ones who threaten Israel. God shall strike them down and kill them.”
With Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also calling on God to destroy Israel, we have perfect agreement on one point from both sides: God is being who can be called upon to kill millions in the name of faith. These guys both sound and look remarkably alike.
As noted in the earlier blog, Yosef has long espoused extreme and hateful views, including likening Palestinians to snakes and calling for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to “perish from this world” and describing non-Jews as “born only to serve us”. This is the person that the Israeli government wants to bless the upcoming war . Of course, as noted earlier, the scheduling of a new war against Iran before the U.S. election would be a transparent effort to use the American politics to guarantee support for the war on the assumption that neither candidate would want to risk alienating the Jewish vote and campaign donors. At a minimum, Israel would expect that the U.S. would help pay for the war — if not immediately than in a later mix of loans and military assistance. We could then ultimately find ourselves in a third war, particularly if Iran strikes U.S. assets in response to an Israeli attack. Of course we will have the comfort of knowing that Ovadia Yosef says it is all perfectly moral.
Source: Haaretz
Tell me again why we hold up religious leaders as experts on matters of politics and international relations.
And when you point out all the wars that have used religious dogma as an excuse to theists they proclaim it to be an historical exaggeration and contemporarily none existant (them Jews and Arabs are fighting over land it has nothing to do with religion is the argument I hear.)
Everything in a context.
Is Israel a cancer in the area ? Yes.
Is it only Iran who sees Israel as such ? No
Wiping each other out, isn’t the solution, mainly because Israel is and have been the only one capable of doing so since always.
The better solution would be for Zionist Jews to pack-up, say thank you and sorry for over 60 years of misery, or trade lands with the Palestinians, switch location for 60 years and develop Palestine and you end up with two lovely places enough for its original owners.
Don’t give me mail with the Holocaust scenario, it has nothing to do with it, or the Palestinians.
Mespo,
We follow the money trail….. That’s why…..
For a moment I thought the writing was about union bosses. It’s just religious bosses … Men of God, indeed.
Israel is not a cancer but this call by a “religious” leader is madness, sheer madness.
Mespoo,
As experts, no. As herders of sheep, yes.
So we have one God against the other. Personally I don’t believe in Gods, but stupid conniving people. Yes, definitely,
This is awful and barbaric (and very rare in Judaism). The difference is, Islam demands the death or conversion of “the infidel” (especially Jews), while Judaism says that saving a life is the highest form of righteousness. Doctors in Israeli hospitals will put sick Palestinians before Israeli soldiers if their condition is more serious.
Maybe the Jews should just use the nuclear weapons they have and make an end to the troubles in the middle east.
I know it is a unilateral solution but then the Palestinians would have a big new homeland. And if the Jews used neutron bombs then Iran would be habitable pretty quickly.
Who says nukes dont have a place in this world?
But the Jews need to make sure that Russia and China know they can have the Iranian oil. I am sure the Russians and Chinese only care about Iranian oil anyway.
John Bolton and Hillary Clinton try to complicate things way too much.
The Jews should use the excuse of making a homeland for the Palestinians for destroying Iran. That way the Palestinians will be on board with nuking Iran. That would be a good deal of land and oil to split.
I once was given hell here for saying that Jews in America and Israel had disproportionate influence over USA politics. Now I’ve met some poor jews, learned a bit more how zealots and politics work.
Sooooo????
Here comes Nutinyahooo and shows me that he is willing to use the Prez campaign to strongarm us into WW3.
I don’t frankly care what his ethnicity or religion is, just so you understand. I love individual jews, ie the ones I can choose. As a tribe, I don’t dig them so much. But then I don’t dig any tribes with world power. The two don’t go together. Just like Catholic priests and children.
Recently, after the previous post on this rabbi, I have accused him of wanting to go down in history as the cause of a second shoah or should that be holocaust.
And now he doubles-down again. What chutzpah.
A shame he waan’t born in the USA. Or was he?
Has China taken sides? Or Russia. What is France saying? Britain. N. Korea. India? Pakistan? Obama? Romney’s all for war
.
Sane leaders without nukes?
Amy, I can pull that same sort of generosity out of the Koran & find the same sort of death threats in the Old Testament. Religious crackpots are religious crackpots no matter which hairy thunderer they think they hear speaking to them.
Much of the current animosity coming from the Muslim world has more to do with political and economic conditions than the mandates of some invisible sky wizard. Its nice for you to believe “my side doesn’t do that” but it is delusional.
Amy Alkon,
Here’s a connected story. An Assyrian father here in Sweden told me the story of one of his very young sons, hurt in an accident, who was ignored in a Islamic country in a hospital run by muslims. The boy died after 3 hours waiting for treatment. One story. I have heard many similar, but none like this one. They speak the same language as Jesus did. Doesn’t seem to help them.
Bron – lets, for the sake of humanity, assume your suggestion that Israel should cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people because you don’t like their leadership was tongue in cheek.
But what, exactly, do you think the worlds reaction to such a slaughter would be? Do you think Russia would stand by wringing its hands and say “Oh well”? Do you think Europe would not demand the most severe sanctions and impose draconian measures that would cause Israel more trouble? Even in the US such a move would cause a titanic shift in public opinion and maybe even move our government to stop its obsequious capitulation to the Likhud?
The green glass option is often suggested as a cure all by crackpots in the US but only if very little thought is given to the actual results
I think he got those shades from Steppenwolf.
Again, I’m backing Frankly. Those were my words.
I second Justic Holmes, Israel is not “a cancer.” That was either hyperbole or hate.
one would think that religious leaders would glom onto the subject of ‘peace, love and understanding…’
Oh and the shades? Looks like Jack Horner from “Boogie Nights.”
frankly:
That is what Iamanutjob wants to do to Israel.
I’m a Christian and I hate institutionalized religion. I don’t want institutionalized atheism, christianity, islam, or jewish orthodoxy ruling over me and making deicisions on who I should kill. Back in the dark ages, the Christians were the ones getting burned at the stake as the evil people in power co-opted Jesus’s teachings, changed quite a few things, and then proceeeded to force it upon people, calling it The Holy Catholic church. That’s why America’s founders were so wary of state religion, because of all the war and death it brings on.
Amy
“Doctors in Israeli hospitals will put sick Palestinians before Israeli soldiers if their condition is more serious.”
You’ll have to correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that one of the basics of modern medical practices? I’m pretty sure that they teach triage techniques to non-Jewish doctors too.
People (all people) are able to be good or bad. The particulars of their religion has nothing to do with that.
If God listens to both sides, Israel and Iran, and gives them what they pray for then God will be granting them a nuclear war. God made borders between nations for a reason. The state that does not violate the border will not be punished. Unfortuneately the Iranians are using their pawns, Hezbolla and Hamas just as theiy did their “students” 30 years ago when they took over our Embassy. These pawns shoot missles from Gaza into Israel on a daily basis. So on a scale of things it looks like the Iranians might get some pay backs. They want a nuclear bomb. Them may get one.
Dog works in strange ways.
Sure, but make it quick will you. The world is BORED with it.
Please make sure no-one is left standing on either side, and that region is completely irradiated for centuries so no further looney Abrahamic religions can start up again.
Have fun…. Make sure you wear your Yarmulca when you enter Tehran… so they know who you are… and twirl your sideburns…. I’ll be here thinking about you when they re-circumsize you at the root…..
mespo727272
1, August 27, 2012 at 8:18 am
Tell me again why we hold up religious leaders as experts on matters of politics and international relations.
*****
And tell me why we consider such leaders as holy men/people of God when they spread hatred and call for the death of innocent people?
Poor Amy. Which world do you live in ?
Where did you get that assumption that an israely hospital would treat a Palestinian before an israeli ????? They bomb the guts out of them and deny ambulances to rescue the dead and wounded. Wake up Amy read the REAL news.
The rabbi is in a rut of rusty rhetoric borne of neoCon propaganda:
(…A Celebrity World of Illusion). The religious neoCons are as sicko as the secular neoCons when it comes to blood lust.
Yeah, right, Jonathan: they look and sound alike? The World would have been soooo much better had the Nazis won WWII, wouldn’t it? Israel should always wait to get attacked. You much prefer to say that when Israeli blood, bones, and tissue are splattered all over the streets, “too bad.” That is the Good Way, isn’t it Jonathan? Israel shouldn’t defend itself against those who want to destroy it, right?
Perhaps YOU would feel better if the Nazis or their blood brothers in Iran would kill all the Jews and everybody else that doesn’t fit with the Nazi-Islamic ideology? But for those of us in the civilized world, and who want to keep it that way, we know that you can’t let the barbarians get too close to our gates.
Many of you know (and have capability criticized) my policy of Realpolitik when it comes to international relations. While this man is obviously without any credential to opine of the advisability of striking Iran either strategically or morally, he does raise an important question. Should the US, either directly or indirectly, support an attack on Iran to pre-empt it from joining the Nuclear Club? I think allowing Iran any nuclear capability is suicide, but I’m interested if anyone would have a better solution than having our surrogates handle the matter as opposed to a few well-placed cruise missile strikes launched from offshore by US vessels?
peace can not possibly happen until the Jewish Settlements are removed and Palestine has it’s OWN country and can move about their country freely…..
ONCE this happens…. then maybe it will create a better more understanding in that region….
the Muslims are upset, because we have backed Israel 100% of the time.. including weapons….
If the Israel would make peace with Palestine and stop this occupation…
this would NOT only defuse the hate coming from the Muslims towards the USA…. it would lend the USA some credibility… and maybe then the USA could get some real peace talks going….. maybe there could be hope for that region,….. as it stands NOW…. it is a mess….
Netanyahu, in my opinion is dangerous….
Yosef…. by calling for the death and destruction of another country, he is perverting the Holy book for power…. NOT for the grace of god…
This is SICKENING….
The USA NEEDS to cut Israel off until they are willing to really make peace…. NO help… NO MONEY….. NO WEAPONS!!!!
NOTHING for them…..
“Israel should always wait to get attacked.”
Yup. As should Iran, and the US, and every other country on earth.
Mespo…
The Bush Doctrine was NOT a good idea then… and is NOT a good idea NOW…..
the USA is in 2 wars now…… YOU think a third is a GOOD idea????
Preemptive strikes are just bad foreign policy….
Military should be LAST resort….
and with the lack of anybody wanting to fund these wars….. and EVERY politician refusing to raise taxes to pay for these wars…. and the fact that the ONLY people these wars are helping are the MILITARY CONTRACTORS and their shareholder….
oh, and the mercenaries making $100,000 a year when our Military man are on food stamps….
Did I get myself in trouble????
I have a comment that has a yellow banner on it that states….
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Is this a glitch????
or… did I overstep, and now being moderated???
“Israel should always wait to get attacked.”
Yup. As should Iran, and the US, and every other country on earth.
YEP…. it really is that simple….
YOU would think we would learn, after 2 wars that we are unable to get out of quickly….
mespo,
We started a war with Iraq because that country supposedly had weapons of mass destruction. That didn’t turn out too well for us, did it? We went to war in Vietnam in order to halt the “domino effect” in Asia. How many Americans gave up their lives in that fiasco? Suicide? I don’t know about that. I’d say we’re slowly destroying our country because of our perpetual involvement in wars.
mespo, mespo …
Jefferson, in looking to protect the United States’s access to the Port of New Orleans and Mississippi River, managed to obtain 828,000 square miles of territory effectively doubling the size of the country without firing a shot.
It may have been unconstitutional as hell at the time, but not one individual died on either side. Seems to me we could do with some of his wily intelligence now.
(You have permission to ignore me because I am, indeed, just being contrary.
)
Justagirl,
It’s the number of links in your comment, 3 or more gets it sent to purgatory. Just re-post them separately.
“I’m a Christian and I hate”
ROFL, again
justagurl, I agree.
Moderation is automatic and is probably due to more than two links. There are also a few words that will do it. The moderated post goes nowhere.
My experience here is that if you stick to the topic and not personal attack, it’s only your ideas that will be challenged.
“I’d say we’re slowly destroying our country because of our perpetual involvement in wars.” (Elaine)
We’re certainly destroying the lives of our fellow countrymen/women.
This guy is the leader of a party that is part of the ruling coalition. His party hold 10 of 120 seats in the Knesset and has four cabinet positions. This is not some unelected nut shouting from a soap box. This guy is in the mainstream of Israeli politics.
Just in case anyone is interested in something other than the lamestream media corporate dictated view of middle east news,
http://www.wrmea.org/
And for those who aren’t too afraid of US intelligence monitoring your reading habits if the first link doesn’t do it,
http://www.aljazeera.com/category/country/united-states
Waldo,
Kudos
“. . . just as theiy did their ‘students’ 30 years ago when they took [back their government].”
There, fixed it. .
Perhaps YOU would feel better if the Nazis or their blood brothers in Iran would kill all the Jews and everybody else that doesn’t fit with the Nazi-Islamic ideology? But for those of us in the civilized world, and who want to keep it that way, we know that you can’t let the barbarians get too close to our gates.
Ralph….
are YOU not aware that many, if not MOST Jewish people in the world do not support the Zionist Movement….
in fact there are many Jewish Groups that oppose Zionists….
here are just a few….
Jews against Zionism
A list of websites opposed to Israel’s policies
“Contrary to the propaganda put out by Israel’s supporters, Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world’s Jewish people. Ariel Sharon does not speak for all Jewish people. And being anti-Israel is not “anti-Semitic”"
http://www.freewebs.com/jewsagainstzionism/
here just google….
jews against israeli occupation
it is QUITE Eye opening…..
here is a snippet from one site….
NION, Not In Our Name . .
Jewish voices opposing Zionism
We came together to form the Not In Our Name (NION) network in Toronto, Ontario, during the summer of 2006, in solidarity with the people of Lebanon and Palestine against Israel’s wars and in opposition to the complicity of the Canadian government with Israel’s criminal actions.
Who are we? Not In Our Name (NION): Jewish Voices Opposing Zionism. We are also affiliate members of Independent Jewish Voices (Canada).
“Cry havoc, and unleash the gods of war.”
Fixed it for you, Barkindog.
Gyges
1, August 27, 2012 at 11:28 am
Justagirl,
It’s the number of links in your comment, 3 or more gets it sent to purgatory. Just re-post them separately.
Ahhhh… I see….
Thank you….
Cheers,
JAG
at the risk of being misunderstood….
I will quote a page I found, that pretty much conveys what I believe…
http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm
Henry Makow Ph.D.
“Historically, the vast majority of Jews were opposed to Zionism and preferred to assimilate. However, since WW2, Zionists have usurped the leadership of the Jewish people.
A large minority, including myself, remain opposed to Zionism. We believe it is a fraudulent movement that puts Jews in jeopardy by creating Antisemitism. We believe our undivided loyalty should be to our country of residence.
Over the years, Jeff has been fearless in posting criticism by Jews like myself. He has made the distinction between Zionists and Jews and eschewed comments that could be construed as racist.
Jews like myself are grateful to Jeff Rense for giving us a platform.
–
Henry Makow
I wonder if God wonders if anybody is on his side for a change.
Hi Idealist….. Hope you are having a GREAT day….
“Here comes Nutinyahooo and shows me that he is willing to use the Prez campaign to strongarm us into WW3.”
I know…. this is just CRAZY…..
many world leaders do not have much respect for him….
he is crazy… and dangerous…..
Frankly
1, August 27, 2012 at 9:12 am
Amy, I can pull that same sort of generosity out of the Koran & find the same sort of death threats in the Old Testament. Religious crackpots are religious crackpots no matter which hairy thunderer they think they hear speaking to them.
Much of the current animosity coming from the Muslim world has more to do with political and economic conditions than the mandates of some invisible sky wizard. Its nice for you to believe “my side doesn’t do that” but it is delusional.
———————————————-
Frankly….
That was very well put…. too bad, many people only see, what they want to see…..
It would benefit them to know the TRUTH about their own religions, before passing judgement on other religions that they know nothing about, other than the propaganda, they read on some fanatics website…….
Darren Smith
1, August 27, 2012 at 11:54 am
I wonder if God wonders if anybody is on his side for a change.
if there was a god… I would bet, that is what she/ he would be wondering…..
WWJD?
Whenever religion gets mixed up in any country’s politics and governing, bad things happen. The radical extreme of any religion is no different, in many cases, to the Taliban extreme of Islam.
Elaine,
I agree with your response to Mespo that we do not need to go looking for more wars and battles to be fought.
Mespo,
If indeed Iran has a nuclear capability, which seems to be in doubt, why are they any different with the current administration in Israel, which does have a nuclear capability? As Prof. Turley stated above, religious leaders in both countries are calling for the murder and incineration of thousands and possibly millions. And the political leaders of both countries are in bed with those religious leaders. That is a deadly combination.
Blouise,
I roll down to comment and greet you with warmth in my heart at seeing your name.
I think we all agree that the Amerindians took a beating after the Louisiana Purchase.
Gurl,
Thank you for the thought.
You seem to be enjoying, and are quite right in doing so.
BettyKath had good advice to give you.
Watching all these folks vent is also fun for me, and relaxing. Besides what does a 3 day visit in Israel in ’66 equip me to base opinions on.
The threads of the conspiracies are like the stars, Uncountable.
Thanks especially for what was news to me about the anti-Zion Jews. And for pointing out that Netanyahu does not speak for the worlds jewry. I don’t even accept the concept of jewry, especially worldwide.
Wait to get attacked is good? Wrong. Many years ago, the US had a REAL president who took decisive action against terrorists. The only mistake that Reagan did was he permitted Gaddafi to survive.
Mespo: “…but I’m interested if anyone would have a better solution than having our surrogates handle the matter as opposed to a few well-placed cruise missile strikes launched from offshore by US vessels?”
********
Is the label “our surrogates” still appropriate? Might the tail be wagging the dog in this matter? Is this about Iran or is this a premium negotiating position by the Israelis for something as yet not apparent?
I’m still digesting this situation but I can’t see an attack on anybody in the Mideast being to anyone’s advantage (and would condemn it) and don’t believe that Iran is in any position to make their own nuclear weapons any time soon. Maybe buy a stray nuke from someone but their subterfuges were pretty well wrecked by Stuxnex, a US/Israeli joint venture. There is more going on here than first meets the eye possibly.
PS… Thank you all for the input on where my Post that was thought to be moderated….
The issue was 3 links in the post…. I removed 2 of them… and all was well again….
A former CIA station chief gives his views on Netanyahu’s Iran position. He claims the USA has called Netanyahu’s bluff. Shall we guess that he is well-informed? Some will say that he’s always working for the company. Be that as it may, the consequences that the USA must take into account when considering the consequences of a Israel strike or one of its own, are more than I had thought of.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/08/201282114445107676.html
Ralph,
What do you suppose the Iraqis would have attcked the US with–their weapons of mass destruction? We are becoming a fearful nation.
Oh yes, it is his list of consequences which I refer to.
Ralph,
If you’re referring to Ronald Reagan, Ronnie sold arms to the Ayatollah, who proclaimed the U.S.A. to be The Great Satan. Iran, at the time, was under an arms embargo. Ronnie used the money to illegally fund Contra terrorists in Nicaragua.
This isn’t esoteric history. It’s the Iran/Contra scandal.
The word “treason” is defined in the Constitution:
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.”
The government of Iran certainly thought it was our enemy.
I believe Ronnie thought the government of Iran was our enemy.
Did he knowingly give them aid and comfort? Yes, he did. He armed them.
Yes, Ronnie did take decisive actions regarding terrorists. He funded them with money gained by selling arms to Iran.
That’s a REAL president? I prefer fakes.
Oh…and your rant against J Turley?
“You much prefer to say that when Israeli blood, bones, and tissue are splattered all over the streets, “too bad.” …But for those of us in the civilized world, and who want to keep it that way, we know that you can’t let the barbarians get too close to our gates.”
If your rhetoric is spawned by the civilized world, I prefer barbarism.
lottakatz,
“…their subterfuges were pretty well wrecked by Stuxnex…”
I think their centrifuges were pretty well wrecked by Stuxnet, but “subterfuges” is much wittier.
A subterfuge could be a secret, subterranean centrifuge. Works for me.
mespo:
dont you think it matters as to the psychology and philosophy of the individual in charge of the country?
I think Iran would use it against us or Israel. I would have taken out Iran a long time ago or better yet never let that first Ayatollah come to power. That was the ultimate mistake; thinking the Shah was worse than those 7th century nut bags.
The Iranian people at least the ones who are sane are probably praying Israel takes out their leadership.
Can anybody confirm that this is a genuine quote of Ben Gurion?
“I was amazed how honest our Prime Minister David Ben Gurion was when he said: “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. Politically, we are the aggressors, and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view, we want to take away from them their country.”"
From this site:
http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm
Elaine/Blouise:
I guess my question was: Is it better to have our surrogates do our dirty work to avoid a direct conflict or should we handle our own messes? Letting the other guy do it certainly is a better way than involving our own troops which avoids your predicament assuming there is no retaliation. Nothing will happen to Israel because the Arab League knows that we will back them militarily if need be. Same goes for Russia.
id707,
Aye, Jefferson was in favor of forced removal and or forced assimilation … starting way back in the 1770′s. There’s a letter to Harrison dated sometime in 1803 (?) wherein he lays out his plans and another one to a guy named von Humboldt in 1812 or 13 in which he speaks to the matter.
It should be remembered that at that time many Native American tribes were forming alliances with European nations hoping to get back some of their lands through war and that the new nation, the United States, was bent on protecting their borders and expanding same which is why the Louisiana Purchase was such a huge coup considering no shots were fired and no “hatchets” were raised. The frontier was a very dangerous place to reside.
Shall we mention slavery next? The Louisiana Purchase contained all of present-day Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska; parts of Minnesota that were west of the Mississippi River; most of North Dakota; most of South Dakota; northeastern New Mexico; northern Texas; the portions of Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado east of the Continental Divide; Louisiana west of the Mississippi River, including the city of New Orleans. Lots of slave expansion.
Bron:
We agree that Carter made a huge blunder allowing the Ayatollah to return to power. One fundamentalist helping another I suppose. Seems Carter is spending the rest of his life making up for the error. Look it was one 12th Century nut-bag for another but at least you could reason with the Shah.
Blouise:
Jefferson was no pacifist nor isolationist:
“Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.”
mespo727272
1, August 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Elaine/Blouise:
I guess my question was: Is it better to have our surrogates do our dirty work to avoid a direct conflict or should we handle our own messes? Letting the other guy do it certainly is a better way than involving our own troops which avoids your predicament assuming there is no retaliation. Nothing will happen to Israel because the Arab League knows that we will back them militarily if need be. Same goes for Russia.
*****
I think it best that we not start another war. Do you consider the Israelis to be our surrogates with regrad to Iran? Or is it the other way around?
mespo,
Do you think that Jefferson would be in favor of our starting a preemptive war with Iran?
Hitler said he wanted to exterminate the Jews in Mein Kampf. He got pretty close. This midget in Iran praises Hitler and repeatedly says he want to destroy Israel. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. How did Kennedy react when the Soviets tried to put nukes in Cuba. We were prepared to go to war and took the pretty drastic action of a blockade. And I’m quite certain we would have gone into Cuba if the blockade didn’t work. I can see the folks here who have dug in their heels. But, for the reasonable folks you need to try and put yourself in the Israeli shoes. If you are old enough to remember the Cuban Missile crisis it might help.
mespo,
Like lotta, I suspect there is a lot more here than meets the eye but then my government seldom gives me anything on foreign policy that I’d be willing to take to the bank. But what’s new about that? Jefferson was giving contradicting instructions to his own two emissaries during the negotiations for the Louisiana Purchase. Same old, same old.
Is it our dirty work being done? Or is it the dirty work of our surrogates?
I’m not being at all flip when I remark … “It’s da*n difficult being Roman”!
Elaine,
How funny … I was typing so didn’t read your post until after I had posted.
Basically we asked mespo the same question.
Great minds, mespo my dear, great minds.
Elaine/Blouise (and other simultaneous great minds):
I think Jefferson would be in favor of anything that insured our national security and base it on the best information he had. I have no doubt he’d launch a strike on them to stop a strike on us.
nick:
Nobody has the all answers. That’s the nature of international affairs — incomplete knowledge. A US politician answers to his (for convenience, could be hers, also) constituency here, and not in Iran. If he takes Iran at its word and atatcks and then finds he’s wrong he apologizes. If he’s right, the threat is neutralized and he’s re-elected. Welcome to Realpolitik.
mespo,
No, he wasn’t but he sure handled that Spain/France/England mess that resulted in the Louisiana Purchase, especially where New Orleans was concerned, with real wisdom and genuine genius.
All the while dealing with the charges of hypocrisy here at home.
Just a smidgen of that genius would be most welcome now.
Blouise:
Right now, I’d take someone with just good horse sense.
Elaine:
I think the Israelis are our surrogates until the find another supplier of sophisticated arms and aircraft.
@Idealist707, I see that you look to Rense as a source of information. Rense is a rabid-anti-Jewish website filled with made-up garbage. But seeing that you seek lies and wish to see attacks on Jewish people, I will direct you and other Leftists, Nazis, Skinheads, Far Right-wingers, IslamoNazis, Islamopanders on this website to another site that I’m sure you will enjoy and find enlightening. It’s not as subtle in its anti-Jewish and anti-Israel as Jonathan Turley’s website, but I’m sure you’ll find the “insights” and discussion refreshing:
http://www.stormfront.org/
mespo,
He also had very good spies working for him in France.
“Elaine/Blouise (and other simultaneous great minds)
:
I think Jefferson would be in favor of anything that insured our national security and base it on the best information he had. I have no doubt he’d launch a strike on them to stop a strike on us.” (mespo)
But would he allow another country to drag us into their conflict? That was the beauty of his performance during the Louisiana Purchase time frame … everybody was yammering to side with England or side with France, even a few yammers for Spain because of Florida.
“Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other.” Sound familiar. From Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address
Hello. Back from vacation and finding the latest blogs, as usual, very interesting. The comments about the blogs are of course a source of entertainment. Some leave me elated, others with dismay and still others make me laugh out loud, or is that LOL?
The two latest blogs about Israel remind me of the situation I find myself in since many years.
I grew up in Belgium and from an early age was introduced to the Holocaust, both through stories and powerful, indelible images. I have always been a supporter of the Jewish people and the Jewish state of Israel. In Europe I was sometimes called a “Jew lover” and was often the only one in a group who spoke out in support of the Jewish people. I still believe that Belgium helped fight the Germans (Germs, as my mother still calls the citizens of Germany) out of pure self-preservation, not because the Belgians liked the Jews or felt badly about their deportations.
Throughout the last few years I have grown very upset with some of the policies and public statements coming from the Israeli Zionists and I am disgusted at the latest one your article describes.
It is however quite ironic that I now have been a called an anti-Semite in the US for criticism of Israeli governmental policies and actions. The love for Israel by many Evangelical Christians in the US is, to me, some kind of a farce, in as much as I understand it. Where were all those good Christians when Hitler wiped out 6 million Jewish people (and, yes, gays, gypsies, disabled people…)?
To me, there is not that much love involved as much as some other ‘weird’ religious notion that Armageddon will happen in the region where many of the world’s Jewish people live. At the same time, those Evangelicals are trying mightily to convert Jewish people to their brand and tell them they (Jews) won’t make it to the ‘promised land’ upon death unless they convert. It’s all been good for business though. After all, isn’t it always about business and power the most in most conflicts?
I will defend the Jewish people all I can when it comes to their right to self-defense. I don’t support the notions of the religious right, including the Jewish religious hard-liners. I guess I’ve become a left-wing Jewish supporter; another label?
… of course at that time we weren’t Rome ….
mespo,
“The best information we had” led us to wage a preemptive war against Iraq. We don’t always get the truth from our leaders or from our press/media. I’d add that the Bush administration–as I’m sure other administrations–knew/know how to use the press to get the public to support their positions. Think Dick Cheney, Judith Miller, and the New York Times. That is just one example.
Blouise:
I think Jefferson would involve himself anywhere our interests were involved whether it aided the other country or not.
You can be dragged or you can run up ahead and still in both cases you are going in the same direction.
Houston Tax Lawyer:
Smart guy that Lincoln. Maybe we could find a place on a mountain for his likeness or maybe a statute by a reflecting pool.
mespo,
One thing I’d say: The world is a different place today. Maybe Jefferson would be less likely to involve his country in a nuclear war than you suppose. Speaking for myself–I am war weary. I’m tired of spending our country’s treasury on wars while our infrastructure crumbles and we can’t seem to find the money to support education, needed services to our citizens, social programs that help millions of Americans–both young and old.
Elaine:
I’d like more social spending but in a fundamentalist crazy world, I’d say our survival takes priority. The world is still a scary place for democracies: Fundies don’t like ‘em; tyrants want them to just go away and leave them alone; and those living under subjugation use the as aspiration much to the dismay of the other two.
Darren 11.54: For that statement, you win the prize.
The Omnipresent Enemy
Ralph Adamo,
I am very aware of all the hate groups out there who aim their anger at Jewish people. I would be surprised if there is one commenter here who doesn’t. These groups however also aim their anger at non-white people, at non-Christians other than their ‘brand’, at non-heterosexual people and often at Democrats/Liberals, at women etc. This is why I also visit the Gay Memorial site not far from the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. Hate groups often hate more than one group of people. The difference you may say lies in the vast numbers of Jewish people who died as a result of this hatred, and that would be an understandable argument. In my view all groups that are hated and at which violence is directed deserve my support. Most white supremacist websites and others in the US don’t just ‘hate’ Jewish people; they just about hate anybody who don’t look, think or act like them.
mespo,
Do you think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have helped to make our democracy a safer place?
Elaine M:
Yes on Afghanistan; No on Iraq.
R.S.
What’s the source for your claim that “Hitler said he wanted to exterminate the Jews in Mein Kampf. He got pretty close.
Where in M. K. did he say that? I think you made that up…like a good Neocon would.
bill mcwilliams: Wow, When your buddy the Fuhrer spoke of creating the great Aryan race he stated the Jews were vermin and needed to be eliminated first. Unlike 99% of the population in this world, I actually read it. So did Churchill which caused him to be so incredulous when politicians continued to appease this madman. You’re the first person to ever call me a neocon, but you also got my name wrong. Must be cocktail hour.
mespo,
Perpetual war is the only threat to whatever is left of our “democracy.”
Wars against tiny countries that can’t fight back, do not make anyone safer. Those wars serve to enrich war contractors, reduce our freedoms, and deplete our infrastructure.
Bin Laden was in Pakistan, our ally. You know, the nuclear-armed country that gave the bomb-making info to North Korea, Iran, and Libya?
Yet we are still in Afghanistan, doing…what, exactly?
And how would Iran be a danger to us? Same way Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and Panama and Cuba and Granada were/are?
Just bust up one more defenseless country, and we’ll be fine?
Oh, and you want to ask Jefferson whether we should nuke Iran?
Jefferson, who owned 130 slaves? I don’t think he’s an expert on current events.
You’d need to fill Jefferson in on some details, like how the U.S.A. overthrew the government of Iran in 1953, at the behest of U.S.A. and British oil companies.
And how the U.S.A. is the only country to use nuclear weapons in war. And is now terrified of its shadow.
mespo,
Do you think the war in Afghanistan should have ended some time ago? Do you think we could be helping to create more enemies in Muslim countries with our perpetual wars and our drone strikes–which often kill innocent civilians?
Ralph, are you familiar with Rabbi Lerner and Tikkun magazine? They have online presence, as well. I read that source ss well as Jewish World Review and find that gives me s reasonably good balance of viewpoints.
The problem is both sides cannot let go of the past. The only true hope for peace is if both sides get over the past. Oh and the USA stops trying to make the prophesies of armaggedon come true. In short both sides need to let go of religious dogma and old grudges. Not easy I’m sure but I can’t think of any other solution.
Try harder.
Jesus never asked for the death of anyone. Therefore Jesus is not in Rabbi.
“Men of God” mooning each other? How far both religions have fallen.
Elaine M:
Sure, I think we cold have ended it sooner but the political will just wasn’t there to accept the casualties an all out war in that region would have brought. You make enemies no matter what you do and we all know there is very little we can do to appease religious fanatics. We have to act to protet our interests.
Bob Kauten:
I’d call it perpetual vigilance in the face of a fanatical enemy bent our utter destruction by whatever means are available all without any sense of remorse. If you think you can reason with fanatics, you’ve missed the boat. I think disrupting al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and elsewhere has made us quite a bit safer. I think we are in Afghanistan protecting our national interests by fending off the Taliban who is allied with al-Qaeda.
Elaine/Mespo:
we did not need to stay in Afghanistan for more than a few months. Kill as many Al Qaeda and Taliban and then leave should have been the strategy. I am reading a book from the mid 1800′s about the British in Afghanistan, nothing has changed.
Whomever was advising Bush was a moron to think we could do anything but kill those blighters and leave. A warning should have been left that any thing like this ever happens again and Tehran will be held responsible.
mespo:
“Perpetual” is a good description of it. Continuous occupation of Afghanistan, while slaughtering “Taliban” and “Insurgents,” which are interchangeable, just generates more Taliban and insurgents.
Funneling billions to the totally corrupt Afghan government enriches the Taliban and insurgents, who are part-time contractors of the government.
We are protecting the interests of war contractors with this endless cycle. What is it now, eleven years or so?
We are also supplying the Taliban with a rich source of Crusader targets.
I haven’t missed any boat. I don’t want to reason with the Afghan government or the Taliban. Neither of them needs the U.S.A. to mess up their country. They can do it all by themselves. Go away and let them do it.
We’re safer?
I’ve been protecting the U.S.A. from rampaging elephants for eleven years now. See any elephants? I’m protecting you! I need more money!
@AB, I have looked into Rabbi Lerner and Tikkun magazine and within a minute or two of reading, I quickly established that it’s a Leftist website, albeit produced by purportedly Jewish people. Among other prominent Jewish Leftists are Rabbi David Saperstein, Arthur Waskow, Norman Finkelstein, and Noam Chomsky. The Jewish-Leftists have one thing in common: they hate Jews & Israel, and they love the enemies of the Jews & Israel.
Of course, they alibi this under various pretexts, and they each take a slightly different angle to the same position–but it is exactly the same, predictible position. Thus, each of them would LOVE to see Iran with nuclear weapons posing a constant threat to not only Israel by other nations as well, including the US.
I would not consider any of them to be Jews, except by ehtnic heritage. They are as repulsive as Neturei Karta International, and all of them would gladly serve the next Hitler in not only the wholesale extermination of Jews, but for the rest of civilization as well. Here’s a video of the perverted, vile, noxious Neturei Karta scumbags: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q
i nominate this for funniest phrase of the day
“Therefore Jesus is not in Rabbi.”
duh
I agree Pete. Hilarious!
Ralph Adamo,
The Jewish-Leftists have one thing in common: they hate Jews & Israel,
Is this hyperbole? because it makes no logical sense to me if it’s not.
I say: “The Jewish-Leftists have one thing in common: they hate Jews & Israel,…”
You say: “Is this hyperbole? because it makes no logical sense to me if it’s not.”
Leftist Jews are typically self-hating Jews. They hate their own Jewishness, and do not identify with or feel any compassion toward other Jews. Surely you have met Jews who hate Israel. There are many such Jewish-Leftists. Google a self-hating Jew named “Norman Finkelstein.” Now, he will say that he only hates Israel, not Jews. But this is largely just a cover because Finkelstein does indeed hate his own Jewishness. A truly extreme case would be “Dan Burros,” whom you can also Google for more information.
Although I’m not a psychologist, I’ve observed enough cases and had enough conversations with Jewish-Leftists to understand why they hate Jews, Judaism, and Israel. In essence, Jewish-Leftists identify with those people who hate them through a transference process. When they are also able to simultaneously imagine those who hate them as “victims” at the same time that they identify with those who hate them, they become passive self-haters and begin to feel better about themselves.
They are able to say to themselves: “I don’t identify with the Jewish Zionist pigs…. I am better than that…. I identify with the “underdog” and with the “persecuted” Palestinians who suffer at the hands of the evil Israeli “apartheid” Imperialists.” Then, when some Muslim terrorist attacks Israel or kills Jews, they justify those actions in their minds by saying to themselves (or out loud): “Those evil Jews had it coming to them; they did not yield to the Muslim terrorists and repent for their sins.”
Admitedly this may be difficult to understand, as it does seem to defy logic. But human beings–you surely must realize by now–are not necessarily logical, and frequently are not logical.
Blouise,
Impressive review although space constrains. Think if one had the time to study this era of development. Would probably become as depressed as from reading of today’s.
They “taught” us in school that the LP was a big deal, looky.looky. But how, what and why was not covered. Not enough hours, not enough talent, I guess.
I am now for the moment concluding that the best that schools can do, is to INTEREST children in the subjects and leave it to the kids to go on on their own. Otherwise it is cowboy and indian comicbooks, and the flicks.
Blouise and ElaineM,
Wish I had been here to read this last night IRT.
Elaine bring a whole new idea (to me) and Blouise drags in us into the picture. If Jefferson spoke with a forked tongue, then how many forks does Obama use on us and the rest of the world?? Not sure State nor CIA know themselves.
Raph Adamo,
You are very quick to draw conclusions.
What do you conclude from the testimonials made by jewish organizations in his defence, including 30 years of following his info on the radio, etc.??? You can read them at the site? And can you answer the question as to Ben Gurion quotes authenticity? That would be constructive.
Messpo,
Do you still feel the same this morning after the debate has cooled?
“You can be dragged or you can run up ahead and still in both cases you are going in the same direction.”–Messpo
Painting black and white does polarize things, don’t you think? And the man who is running might want to keep an eye out for predipices. The future is not owned by anybody. So blithe assurances can bite back.
We have heard an exhorting amount of opinions on this subject and I URGE
all readers to listen to Dr. David Duke.com ” for our Heritage and freedom” and tell me if he makes any sense to you, he certainly gives another more honest prospective.
Our government’s position vv Israel’s security seems clear to me. But what do the American people think? Any studies or polls by segments/ethnicities/religions/male vs female/occupations,etc.
How large a majority position does the Israeli govenment have? What are the opposing views.
And what do the the Israeli people think? Are they voting with their feet.
And what are the views of the jews around the world.
How many are pro-Zionist and how many opposed?
Does Zionism speak for the jews of the world. Or do the jews of the world have the right to take a position?
To find out what some anti-zionists think, check out this site. I did not find it dangerous.
http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm
You’ll even find one person who says that the only right solution is to go back to how it was in the !930s, ie a united Palestine with Jews and Arabs with equal rights, and now wiht a democratic government, not a British protectorate. Interesting idea.
All good and relevant questions.
Thank you, would love to get the answers to your questions.
“I am now for the moment concluding that the best that schools can do, is to INTEREST children in the subjects and leave it to the kids to go on on their own” (id707)
A teacher who can create interest in a subject to the point that the student pursues more info outside the classroom is a teacher worth his/her weight in gold. They inspire.
“Would probably become as depressed as from reading of today’s.” (id707)
The more things change, the more they remain the same. We traveled the land we called America forcing the natives into assimilation or death out of fear over what they could do to us if left to themselves, and then we went to Iraq …..
Bob Kauten,
I have a love/hate relationship with my spell-checker.
Lona: ” We have heard an exhorting amount of opinions on this subject and I URGE all readers to listen to Dr. David Duke.com ” for our Heritage and freedom” and tell me if he makes any sense to you, he certainly gives another more honest prospective
————–
There is absolutely nothing- NO THING, a former grand wizzard/poobah of the Ku Klux Klan could say to me that would make sense to me.
Lona:
Doctor David Duke. Interesting. Rather sullies my Ph.D.
From Wikipedia:
“In September 2005, Duke received a Kandidat Nauk degree in History from the Ukrainian Interregional Academy of Personnel Management (MAUP).
His doctoral thesis was titled “Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism.” Prior to earning his Ph.D., Duke had received an honorary doctorate[citation needed]. Anti-Defamation League claims that MAUP is the main source of antisemitic activity and publishing in Ukraine, and its “anti-Semitic actions” were “strongly condemned” by Foreign Minister Borys Tarasyuk and various organizations. The Anti-Defamation League describes it as a “University of Hate”. Duke has taught an international relations and a history course at MAUP.”
and
“On February 4, 2009, Duke repeatedly called MSNBC pundit Keith Olbermann “untermensch” on his radio show in response to being labeled “Worst Person in the World” on Countdown with Keith Olbermann.”
David Duke may be offering his honest perspective. It’s the perspective of an insane hate-monger.
Olbermann is well-defined by his enemies.
Lona,
I sure hope that was sarcasm
Leftist Jews are a contradiction too. They are anti war, but they are not against violent acts done to their own. Jesus prevented stones from being thrown. Leftist Jews don’t care if they are thrown.
As I have stated earlier elsewhere, I take my invitation back. After doing some back-checks on him, he did not pass the credentials, needed to be on my A-list, I apologize for luring you into his dark world.
Just proves how you can be easily deceived, by words.
It’s OK, Lona. No harm done. I just remembered his name.
It’s astounding that he’s still around.
Disturbing that he has an audience, but in the aftermath to Obama’s election, not surprising.
Bob Kauten:
“I haven’t missed any boat. I don’t want to reason with the Afghan government or the Taliban. Neither of them needs the U.S.A. to mess up their country. They can do it all by themselves. Go away and let them do it.
We’re safer?
I’ve been protecting the U.S.A. from rampaging elephants for eleven years now. See any elephants? I’m protecting you! I need more money!”
******************************
Every intelligence assessment — home and abroad — says you are wrong. You could have made the same argument up to 9/11 and seemed just as wise. Facts have a way of screwing up our theories, and simply put we can’t afford for you to be wrong.
mespo,
I believe we are making many more enemies than friends in Afghanistan. Here are some reasons why:
U.S. Troops Face Administrative Punishments Over Koran Burning, Urination Video
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/27/us-troops-koran-burning-urination_n_1833910.html?utm_hp_ref=world
US troops urged to share faith in Afghanistan
mespo,
I refuse to live my life in fear, and make decisions according to what new bogeyman has been conjured up, this year.
A handful of mostly Saudi Arabians, directed by a Saudi Arabian, attacks New York City and the Pentagon. The U.S.A. attacks Iraq and Afghanistan, but not our ally, Saudi Arabia.
Iraq and Afghanistan must be destroyed.
Eleven years later, I’m supposed to still be hiding under my bed? I don’t think so.
Intelligence assessments are made, oddly enough, by intelligence agencies, which will cease to exist in the absence of assessed threats.
Iran is the latest Big Fear. The Iran problem was created by (wait for it) the CIA in 1953.
Pakistan, our ally, gave nuclear weapon technology to Iran and North Korea.
Iran must be destroyed.
Homey don’t play that game.
Idealist,
“Does Zionism speak for the jews of the world. Or do the jews of the world have the right to take a position?”
Do the non-Jews of the world?
Malisha,
Non-jews can NOT speak for Jews, simply because they don’t know what is important to be the jew, that each jew is as
an indivicual.
Of course, non-jews can speak on their life quustions as the jewish Zionist expression touches on it as a co-inhabitant of this planet.
But my question asks can a group who actively support the extablishement of a Jewish nation, steered as a nation expressing the values of Jews as various Jews there see them….can such a group claim the support of ALL jews around the world, And thus claim to speak in their name.
The jewish complainants at the site I linked to claim that Zionists speak in their name which they do not like.
Thus my questions.
AS for the jews of the world having a right to an opinion on the existence of a Zionist Israel. That IMO is doubtful, in the sense they are not living there. But they do live in the fallout of the conflict, the fallout where they live, of beion presumed to have a pro-Zionist attitude, etc. Thus they are forced to speak to defend their “life” questions.
Now what do you say to my questions as expanded above?
What BK says.
idealist,
You are correct that the Jews of the rest of the world have a valid interest in aggressive attitudes in Israel. It does reflect upon them, whether or not that’s just.
Citizens of the U.S.A. also have a valid interest in Israeli attitudes. The government of the U.S.A. supports Israel, and will be drawn into any conflict in which Israel participates. Countries surrounding Israel are justified in resenting the role of the U.S.A., when Israel becomes aggressive.
Reducing our dependence on oil (there’s no such thing as “foreign oil”) would reduce the perceived need for the U.S.A. to arm, and interfere in, all of the nations in the area. We all contribute taxes to Chevron and BP.
Our position as the world’s largest arms merchant is, of course, very lucrative. But so was the slave trade. We disengaged from one, can we abandon the other?
Just my morning ramble.
Words and context mean so much and as I look through the verbiage used here, in the context of the struggle for oil in the Mid-East that has gone on for at least 100 years, I see words used with meanings that I don’t recognize. first of all to be clear about where I am coming from, let me say that I am a very left-wing (a description in and of itself of many meanings) Jew who supports the right of Israel to exist. To add further precision let me also state that I have been on record here many times as being opposed to the current Israeli government, Netanyahu and AIPAC because I believe their policies actually represent a danger to Israel. Finally, completing my own position contextually, I believe in the so-called “two state” solution with an independent “Palestinian”
State and a removal of Israeli settlements from the West Bank. However, as a Jew, I believe that Jerusalem should remain in its totality as part of Israel and as its capitol. As far as this “Rabbi” and the Shas party go an easy test of when a man is using religion for power, rather than worship, is if they are leading a political party. Shas and this Rabbi are self-important fools who do
harm to Israel as they support policies that are contrary to Israels’ founding principle.
Now knowing my base position let me deal with some of what I see have been misconceptions on this thread:
Zionism: This was originally the belief emanating from 19th century Jewish intellectuals who believed that the Jewish people would always be repressed in the Diaspora until they had their own state. As a Jew I also believe this and in that sense I am a Zionist. However, there are those who call themselves Zionists that really represent aims quite different from my own and indeed from those of Israel’s founders.
United States Policy supports Israel: Although this is the meme that is widely accepted by most people here, it is not now, nor never has been true. Even though Harry Truman approved supporting the UN resolution establishing Israel, as the surrounding Arab States prepared to attack Israel he refused to let them buy arms to defend themselves. Indeed most Western powers refused to sell the Israeli’s arms and they only got them through Jews and other sympathetic individuals smuggling them in past a British blockade. Britain sided with the Arabs, even while voting in favor of the UN resolution and the famed Arab Legion (Jordan) was led by a British General.
The US policy has been to keep Israel in check ever since they improbably won their independence by defeating an overwhelming Arab force. This occurred in all of the wars that Israel has been involved in with its Arab neighbors, even though Israel was attacked time and again by overwhelming Arab forces. In the 1967 War where Israel captured the West Bank after a massed Arab attack, the US immediately began calling for the Israeli’s to give it back, even though the had only recaptured land that the UN Resolution establishing Israel had originally denoted as Israeli territory.
Wait, let me cut this short because from long past experience peoples eyes begin to glaze over when I go into the real ME history, that has been drowned through the years in the sea of propaganda financed by the Saudi’s and the Oil Cartel. In fact the reason I started commenting on Jonathan Turley’s blog was because the people on other supposedly progressive blogs couldn’t believe that I was a “Left Winger” who supported Israel’s right to exist. To me the bottom line is that Saudi Arabia is America’s chief ally in the ME, to the point where it is uncertain who is really the “Client State”. All US policy in the ME has been focused on oil and Israel has been manipulated into providing a distraction for the entire geographical area. The poverty and oppression of the Islamic peoples, in the midst of such wealth, is among the worst in the world. Yet as has been done through all of human history oppressed people are distracted by introducing a “bogey man” as the hated other.
I’ll end this diatribe now, while recognizing that to the skeptic I’ve hardly begun to make a case against all the propaganda they’ve absorbed. I’ve argued these points far too many times and even though I can back up everything I say, it wearies me to continue to do so. In the end I believe Israel’s best course is to acknowledge the the deceptiveness of US policy and chart its own course. Netanyahu, however, is not the man to do it. He is merely the puppet of Jewish Republican plutocrats, who are stupidly the puppets of humanities 1%.
“To me the bottom line is that Saudi Arabia is America’s chief ally in the ME, to the point where it is uncertain who is really the “Client State”. All US policy in the ME has been focused on oil and Israel has been manipulated into providing a distraction for the entire geographical area. The poverty and oppression of the Islamic peoples, in the midst of such wealth, is among the worst in the world. Yet as has been done through all of human history oppressed people are distracted by introducing a “bogey man” as the hated other.” (Mike S)
Yes, yes, and yes. I don’t care how many times it has to be repeated … it is the truth.
Sadly they can not chart their own course for the very reasons mentioned in that quote. I wish they would but I understand why they can’t … Mike, we would annihilate them at the drop of a hat if they didn’t tow the line.
Blouise,
Regarding the annihilation, to understand that as you do, shows you can empathize with what it is to be Jewish and contemplate the world around you. Jewish history is such that we remain convenient scapegoats in times when despots need to distract those they oppress. However, as someone like Bibi shows, oppression doesn’t necessarily lead to nobility,
Lol, god this god that…. How many of you’ve seen his or talked to god? None! So why do you take religious leaders so seriously, it’s not like they’ve been chosen, it was their college career that got them there, they aren’t appointed by the highest law in the universe. I say strike down all people that believe that they have gods best wishes in mind, because these men have the outmost ability to brainwash and control society through their words. I don’t care if it’s a priest, a Jew master or a Muslim master. Strike them all down, think for yourself and give these men less power and then you will truly have gods best wishes with you. If god likes democracy, participate in it, don’t follow like sheep.
Justagurl, there is a difference between opposing improper behavior on the part of the Israeli government and opposing Zionism in general, which by the way is kind of a different thing now from what it was in, say, 1946. Supporting Israel is also not the same thing as supporting every action taken by the present Government of Israel, right? Take, for instance, the example of a person who might say she supported the United States of America (especially the right of the USA to continue to exist as a nation): would that mean that she also supported all of George W. Bush’s policies from 2001-2009 or that she supports all of Obama’s policies today?
There are Jews within and outside of Israel who support Zionism, and those who oppose it; there are Jews within and outside of Israel (a clique of the ultra-Orthodox) who believe that the nation of Israel has no right to exist (because God did not approve the return to the Temple yet) and of course Jews within and outside of Israel who support Israel and at the same time oppose many of its present policies and who would like to see the present government of Israel totally replaced by people who would put policies in place that are more in line with their hopes and ideals — and morals.
And none of these combinations of positions has arisen in any kind of Ivory Tower, nor could they, unfortunately. We just go along as best we can, as probably do most if not all others.
Comment here are not by me, Ralph Adamo fromNew Orleans.
With Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also calling on God to destroy Israel, we have perfect agreement on one point from both sides: God is being who can be called upon to kill millions in the name of faith. These guys both sound and look remarkably alike.
As noted in the earlier blog, Yosef has long espoused extreme and hateful views, including likening Palestinians to snakes and calling for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to “perish from this world” and describing non-Jews as “born only to serve us”. This is the person that the Israeli government wants to bless the upcoming war . Of course, as noted earlier, the scheduling of a new war against Iran before the U.S. election would be a transparent effort to use the American politics to guarantee support for the war on the assumption that neither candidate would want to risk alienating the Jewish vote and campaign donors. At a minimum, Israel would expect that the U.S. would help pay for the war — if not immediately than in a later mix of loans and military assistance. We could then ultimately find ourselves in a third war, particularly if Iran strikes U.S. assets in response to an Israeli attack. Of course we will have the comfort of knowing that Ovadia Yosef says it is all perfectly moral.
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The United States can fundamentally destroy Iran and their allies. Make no mistake. What about Saudi Arabia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
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Be careful what you ask for.