The Washington Post is reporting that the torture ofhigh-value captive, Abu Zubaida produced nothing but false leads — in direct contradiction of suggestions by former Vice President Dick Cheney and others who endorsed the torture program and use of waterboarding. Moreover, the report indicates that the Administration quickly learned that Zubaida was not the high-profile, highly placed Al Qaeda operative that they told the public. I discussed the latest developments on this segment of Countdown.
The greatest irony is that the only useful information came before the Bush Administration tortured the suspect. No plot was foiled as suggested by the torture and Zubaida was not as President George W. Bush had publicly described him, “al-Qaeda’s chief of operations.” It turns out that Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda,
The Bush torture program is a wonderful example of not just the time-proven junk that comes from torture, but also the value of legal process as a way to acquiring legitimate information in legitimate ways. Putting aside the obvious immorality of the program, the reports show how we tortured people for little more advantage than the visceral and political benefits of “getting tough on terrorism.” It turns out that we sold our collective soul pretty cheap in craeting this torture program. The question is now whether Obama will continue to buy into the same cover-up by continuing to block a special counsel.
For the full story, click here.
SC&A, others have properly responded to your ludicrous torture argument. What I find interesting is the principle underlying your “logic,” the proposition that it is acceptable for certain segments of the population to suffer if it is beneficial to the majority. This is usually explained by those less honest in their amorality by casting the argument solely in economic terms. For example, it is better for the elderly poor to live in dilapidated and understaffed nursing homes than to expect the majority to pay for minimum staffing and care standards. It is better for millions of people to do without health care than to expect the majority to provide universal health coverage. It is better for the homeless to sleep under bridges and overpasses rather than to expect the majority to pay for programs to provide shelter. It is better for the wrongfully convicted to be executed rather than to commit the funds necessary to provide an effective right to appellate review. The principle behind the principle, if you will, is the unspoken belief that the powerless have themselves to blame for their condition, and it is not the responsibility of the rest of us to do anything about it. Nice work. I think you need to go back to school and get the education you apparently missed the first time around.
MikeS:
what is Pajama’s Media?
Is that a porn type thing, like naked news? they have hot babes in slinky night gowns? Is that why they are dodging a draft?
SC&A:
“Torture doesn’t have to work all the time.
In fact, if torture only works 30% of the time, countless lives might be saved.”
******************
Certainly true for the ethically barren, morally bereft, dishonorable, and those with no sense of nor desire for personal dignity or any scintilla of human compassion. We can justify anything with your logic –even banning left hand turns for motor vehicles. Stupid, thy name is neo-con.
“In fact, if torture only works 30 haven’ts been used to make people confess to crimes they% of the time, countless lives might be saved.”
SC&A,
Your statement is ludicrous on its’ face. Historically torture has always been used to make people confess to crimes they didn’t commit (Spanish Inquisition)or to have them renounce a certain belief. It works very well for that and probably if I was ever tortured I would confess to anything the torturers wanted, in great detail and with all the creativity I could muster. So would you and your Macho Types at Pajamas’s Media who supported two deranged draft dodgers as they got their vicarious thrills by ordering torture and seeing the reports and videos.
“Had we bombed the hell out of Berlin in 1939, up to 50 million lives would have been saved.”
More macho crap. The history is, for you intellectually challenged Pajama guys that the Republican Party, with Prescott Bush in the lead, prevented FDR from going to war in 1939. You guys like to talk tough, but in my life I’ve found the “tougher” the rhetoric the more cowardly the talker. Why don’t you stay at your own blog, or is it that things are so unprofitable over there, that you earn a little extra on the side by playing the Troll.
By the way the comment you put forth is not only stupid from a logical standpoint, it makes no sense. It’s amazing who gets a website these days and how little qualification they need.
Jill,
I have to disagree with you. Torture does work. The point of institutionalized torture is never to gather information. That might be the justification, but the true reason is something different. Torture is used to gain power by making people afraid.
I’m parroting Orwell, but that is because I happen to think he was right.
Torture doesn’t have to work all the time.
In fact, if torture only works 30% of the time, countless lives might be saved.
I recall a silly argument where the point was made that we had to deal with Hamas because they were freely elected. I noted that the Nazis too, came to power by way of manipulating the electoral system.
Had we bombed the hell out of Berlin in 1939, up to 50 million lives would have been saved.
We are under no obligation to deal with racist and bigoted Hamas as equals any more than we ought to give up torture of ‘ticking bombs’ because sometimes it is ineffectual.
Mike Spindell
1, March 30, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Are we at the point yet where we can begin to assume that the whole torture program came from the febrile (or feeble perhaps?)minds of sadists?
—–
Absolutely. Torture doesn’t work and that is well known. There are only two explanations for ordering torture or carrying it out; they have no empathy (So?), or they enjoy it. Can one not watch almost any interview of Dick Cheney and view the flat affect and absence (or rejection) of any moral consideration of the effect of his actions? This is characteristic of a sociopath.
Bush IMO is demented. Seriously, he suffers from some form of dementia or organic brain damage. I actually see a lot of people that speak, twitch, have facial expressions (constant smirking etc) inappropriate to their speech or the topic at hand. My dad’s 93, in a nursing home and sliding into it himself. I see a lot of people that exhibit the same characteristics where he lives.
I also have some experience with alcoholics and much of Bush’s behavior is characteristic of long-time drinkers actively maintaining a low level buzz. I always suspected that Bush spent so much time at his Crawford ranch to dry out when his drinking started to get out of hand.
I have long suspected that there is more at work in explaining many of the positions taken by the hard right than simply an ideological point of view. There are IMO some very sick people driving the neocon agenda and Republican party.
Bron,
There have been studies of the American people on war crime prosecutions. A majority of our population, left and right, would like to see investigation and prosecution proceed. I think any person of conscience, right or left, would want this. I know cheneybush have hardcore supporters that don’t want investigations under any circumstances, but these supporters are small in number.
Jill and others:
I dont think the right is afraid, I think they disagree. Having seen some of the evidence from people on this site, I do agree that this should be looked into and if Bush/Cheney did sanction torture (and it does look that way) then they should be taken to task.
I used to think that Bush was a good president but have reconsidered my position especially in light of the TARP last fall and the evidence as provided by the people on this site. I dont think many on the right have really looked at what you all take for granted and dont want to. They think that Bush kept another attack from happening, enough said.
I think you make a mistake in thinking that the right is afraid of the idea that Bush should be tried for war crimes, they are not, they think it is stupid and has no merit. When I tell my conservative friends about it they laugh and say it will never happen.
Personally, I no longer agree with them but that is beside the point (I typically give them the link and tell them to do a little research). But it is a mistake to think they are afraid and I do believe that even if you could bring charges against Bush and Cheney there would be such a political firestorm from the right that any attempts would be to no avail.
If they do go to trial what kind of punishment would they get? I dont think you can hang them, maybe a few years in prison? Would a few years in prison even set the record straight or just the fact that they were prosecuted be enough?
tiller,
Typical right-wing strategy, shoot the messenger when you can’t refute the facts. Nice try troll. Care to grace us with your arguement on the benefits of using torture?
Jonathan,
Thank you for speaking directly and forcefully to this issue. We need people like you to speak the truth about the powerful. I saw your words from last week quoted so many places. I’m certain what you said last night will resonate for many again.
Washington Post!
LOL!
What a lark! A near bankrupt newspaper run by left wingers “reports” on the news.
LOL!
JT:
Great work on Countdown as mentioned elsewhere. I only wish you had more time to explain the obligations we have under the UN Convention Against Torture and our duty to investigate or extradite these self-incriminating thugs. The issue is too important for a 2 minute spot. The BBC did a half hour about this development on its “World Service,” radio program.
Jill,
You are quick on the response! You are right that the trolls are afraid of the progressive thoughts that are on display here on Prof. Turley’s site.
10/4 on that one rafflaw! At least we know they’re scared or they wouldn’t be bothering with trolling, so that’s, as Marth Stewart would say, “a good thing!” Trolling telegraphs fear, always.
Jill,
len and his troll counterparts do not like to worry about difficult things like “the facts”. They just spew out their lies and misinformation to try to “kill” the discussion about Bush and his minions being war criminals.
len,
Would you provide links to the papers written about torture by the “impartial investigators” who feel torture is effective? Would you please show how they arrived at their conclusions?
People who study torture clearly state that it does not work. bush’s torture program was effective on a political level and it is my belief that it’s purpose was for propaganda/control of our citizens. In that respect it was and in some ways still is, effective. There are still people who believe bush and cheney were the greatest presdients ever because they were “tough”. Nothing could be further from the truth, but they have staunch defenders of the faith even now. That others suffered at all and especially for such a hideous purpose is unconscienable. Torture must be repudiated by this govt. and our people, not just by word but by deed. I await the appointment of a special prosecutor.
JT, I will tune in at 8pm on KO…
I wish there was a way that our core of ‘turlees’ could commiserate
– aside from the the inet check box – which is a smidge of an upgrade but not one I choose to utilize, personally…
…I want more.
Are we at the point yet where we can begin to assume that the whole torture program came from the febrile (or feeble perhaps?)minds of sadists? These men Bush/Cheney ordered torture because they could and no doubt derived a vicarious pleasure reading the reports. I state this with perfect seriousness because it is the most logical conclusion to be drawn as to a program proven to be ineffective, yet pursued with ferocity. Our public discourse all too often makes the assumption that our leaders have a greater purpose in mind in the programs they pursue, they are human and that informs their actions. I’ve always believed for instance that Bush wanted to invade Iraq to prove himself a better man than his father. I believe now that those who pursued torture did it for their strange pleasures and justified it with lies because they were more ashamed of being found out for their sickness, than worried about national security.