Spanish prosecutors reportedly will seek criminal charges against Alberto Gonzales, Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith. In a particularly embarrassing moment for the United States, the Audencia Nacional court in Madrid asked if or when the United States was going to investigate and said that it would not order the investigation if such an investigation is begun — yielding to the United States. This is precisely what was discussed in previously on Countdown.
The Court noted that there was clear evidence of torture — a view shared by the vast majority of experts in the field. These men will not be able to travel freely once such charges are brought due to the threat of extradition. While the scene of a former Attorney General and a sitting judges accused of war criminals is shameful for our nation, it is far more shameful that the Obama administration has forced other nations to uphold international law because it is politically inconvenient to investigate known war crimes. This places the United States in the company with such countries as Serbia in shielding accused war crimes.
Bybee is particularly frustrating for civil libertarians. Bybee’s role in the torture program was already known when he faced confirmation. Despite objections, the democrats refused to block the confirmation, given a man accused of war crimes a lifetime appointment on the federal bench to rule on hundreds of cases.
The Spanish court has a credible claim in the investigation due to the alleged torture of five Spanish citizens held at Guantánamo. Now, the Obama Administration may actually seek to obstruct the investigation while preventing any special prosecutor from seeing the evidence in a domestic investigation.
The Investigation judge, Baltasar Garzón Real, gained international attention due to his investigation of Augusto Pinochet. I previously discussed the similarity of the status of Pinochet and George Bush due to the allegations of torture and war crimes. t Judge Garzón may have to step aside in presiding in the case given his role as investigator.
For the first story, click here.
Patty,
My problem is that I don’t see how a real American investigation (and one would hope prosecutions) of war crimes committed by the Bush administration would be protecting them. I realize that an effect of the investigation would be for Spain to halt their efforts. If I fix a chair so my wife doesn’t have to call in a handy man, I’m not preventing the chair from being fixed. Similarly if the current administration starts investigations into War crimes they’re not protecting Bush et al from prosecution.
The exception would be if the investigation was a fraud and the pre-arranged outcome is that nobody will be punished. I don’t view that as likely, but that is the only way I can see anyone calling an American investigation “protection.”
I’m with Buddha, the prosecutions NEED to happen, and the best course of action would be for the U.S. to do it.
PattyC:
someone is messing around with you. It appears that someone is posting as you. I think we may have a case of “Gas Lighting” going on here. Dont worry PattyC we will ferret out the miscreant.
I have been openly calling the Bush administration traitors for at least 6 years of commenting on the WEB, using my own name. I have called the Obama White House to express my desire to have the prior administration prosecuted for war crimes and treason. However, as someone who I think this site knows is outspoken I have refrained from debates such as this and I’ll once again give you my reasons.
Our new President is faced with one of the most dire dilemmas seen by any President in history. The country is collapsing economically, we have two dubious wars taking place, our Constitutional protections have been trashed, our media is controlled by corporatists, our citizenry is only now awakening from a propaganda stupor, most of our wealth is controlled by a fraction of our citizenry and these people think themselves elite and will perform any kind of dastardly deeds to maintain their power. A goodly number of the President’s own party is in the pockets of this corporate elite.
This is the situation as I see it now into the third month of this new administration. Yes we need to exert pressure to provide public support for holding the Bush thugs to account,
but please spare me the drama of Obama’s supposed betrayal by not acting quickly enough.
Being an Old Fart and a 60’s radical taught me much. While I and my friends and those I falsely thought of as heroes helped to destroy the Johnson Administration, we ushered in Richard Nixon. His reign of death and destruction outshone LBJ’s by far, as did his trashing of the Constitution. Old age hasn’t made me any less radical, but it has made me smarter in the sense of seeing the excesses of my own side through the perspective of history.
The battle for human justice is age-old and ongoing. Nothing of value is accomplished unless built upon carefully and gradually. Let us do our parts by vocalizing our concerns frequently and loudly. However, let us all understand that for this process to succeed it will take time to overcome the almost impregnable forces arrayed against us.
I still don’t know what you are referring to …!
No, there is no ‘moi deux’… !!!!!!!!!!
For any one who is wondering, I am a surgeon as is my SO.
We practice together AND independently…
He s a vascular surgeon and I practice ‘otherwise’ –
for purposes of non-identification, here, on the ‘turlee’ blog…
PattyC:
What have you been posting in this thread for the last day or so?
look above, are there 2 of you?
I don’t know what your talking about…
… Millaspaian is correct about what???
PattyC:
millsapian87 is correct or it sure looks like that is what you did. Go back and check. If you really don’t remember I should think some amphetimine sulfate is in order, it does wonders for senility.
If you did not a troll is afoot, it might be Waynebro, Bartlebe, Cro Magnum or any of a host of others intent on wrecking havoc and seeing your posts go down in flames.
Warm Regards,
Waynebro, et. al.
ps we are watching you!
Buddah, Jill is a wonk.
She is totally ‘ricidulous’, IMHO… 😉
Obama knows what he is doing…!
Gyges, you, more than most, go out of your way to challenge me every step of the way on this blog.
I am the one who is disaffected…
In your words:
‘Quite frankly, I don’t care one way or the other about you. What I do care about is having an intelligent discussion with reasonable people, I find it enjoyable…’
You are not likely to enjoy any ‘repartee avec moi’
– Sorry!
I calls them likes I sees them. I rarely seek external validation of my analysis of causal relationships. Obama has had enough time to take action now. What action he has taken has been wrong minded and contrary to justice. When I thought Jill’s attacks were premature, I said so. But that time is over. He needs to show signs of action that aren’t driven by narrow moneyed interests but instead work for upholding our Constitutional Rights and in the interests of We the People – as in everyone. A justice system that doesn’t apply to all is “justice” in name only and deserves scorn and non-compliance in the face of bad action or inaction. Equal Protection means equal for all, not just some. This is where my praise of Judge Sullivan came from on his reaction to the Stevens trial in appointing a special prosecutor. Congress sucks. Useless money whores almost to a one. The Executive is spineless. If they weren’t they wouldn’t keep hedging on the Bush issue using the appearance of vendetta as an excuse but would instead force the issue to a trial based on fact and let the chips fall where they fall. It’s time for the Judiciary to take a swing at fixing these issues. If they fail, it’s time to replace them all.
‘Well, in your first post you quoted the first sentence of MY first post, then added a rejoinder to my statement.’
———-
Huh???
What are you talking about???
‘I refuse to be bullied (that is exactly what you’re trying to do, bully Jill and myself)…’
—
Gyges, Hah…!
By your own words in response to me, here, you are full of ‘crapola’, as it were – 😉 😉 😉
Patty C, I appreciate where you’re coming from, and I certainly don’t wish to get into a flame war.
> Surely, you cannot believe I was addressing you, personally.
Well, in your first post you quoted the first sentence of MY first post, then added a rejoinder to my statement.
Your next post immediately followed mine, and you didn’t indicate to whom you were responding. One can only infer you were responding to the comment preceding your own.
Buddha,
I’m delighted you agree with me on the international jurisdiction issue, but that is where we digress…
… Sorry.
All,
I hope you will forgive a moment of indulgence.
Patty,
I have never gone out of my way to “challenge” you or your positions. I know you probably don’t believe that, but it’s the truth. Quite frankly, I don’t care one way or the other about you. What I do care about is having an intelligent discussion with reasonable people, I find it enjoyable. If I have something to add to a conversation I add it, regardless of who I’m agreeing with or disagreeing with. If I happen to disagree with you more than others, that’s just because I happen to disagree with you. I don’t have any sort of personal vendetta against you nor do I mean any disrespect when I venture an opinion contrary to your own. I try to be polite and open to what others have to say, I don’t always succeed in either.
There is only one person who has any right to tell me that I do or do not belong to this community, and that is Prof. Turley. We’re both guests in his house. If he wants either of us to leave he has the means of asking AND enforcing that. I think it is to his credit that he welcomes all types and just asks that we’re civil with each other. If you don’t like me being here, I don’t really care. If you don’t consider me a “true Turely” that’s entirely your prerogative. However, until the man who owns this blog asks me to leave, I’m here till I decide to stop coming.
I refuse to be bullied (that is exactly what you’re trying to do, bully Jill and myself). I’m not intimated by your education, or the length of your time reading and commenting on this blog. If you’re seeking cringing validation of your alpha status, seek elsewhere.
I have to agree with Patty in re: jurisdiction. The relevant EU law clearly gives them jurisdiction over war crimes committed anywhere at any time by anyone. I hope the Spanish action forces Obama’s hand. If not? Well, there’s always the advice of Mr. Jefferson. Bush and Cheney need to go to prison. They are prima facie war criminals. If Obama was as smart as he thinks he is, he’d have realized the boost this would give to U.S. image and power abroad this would bring if they were tried and convicted by American courts instead of EU action. It would illustrate that our system is self-correcting as designed by the Founding Fathers. Given his actions and inactions since taking office though, I’m inclined to think he’s just spineless and co-opted by K Street graft as the Bush administration was albeit from different pockets. Were he not, Geithner and Summers would be unemployed. The root of the problem, just as the root of the problem that allowed Neocon PNAC scum to violate the Constitution in the first place and the inability of Congress to do ANYTHING right is lobbyists. The Right to Petition should NEVER involve money changing hands. Lobby today is graft – plain and simple. Well, the French had a system like this at one time. Ask Marie Antoinette how well that worked out.
To fix any of these issues, from war criminals to the fracturing of the economy, we must first address the graft system that has overtaken the Right to Petition. Shakespeare was a brilliant author and observational social scientist, but were he alive today, his advice would be, “First, we kill all the lobbyists.” Every problem we have as a country, from health care and other critical infrastructure collapsing to lack of oversight in various economic sectors to letting traitors walk free can be directly linked to the activities of lobbyists. You want to fix a recurring problem(s)? You remove the source of the problem. Irritants that are not removed equates to addressing the symptoms but not the disease. Right now, Obama is throwing band-aids at a problem that requires antibiotics and possibly corrective surgery. But he could show the world he is a surgeon by taking Bush and Cheney to trial.
That’s Occam’s Razor in action.
And I’m tired of the excuse, “Where will the talent come from?”
That’s just self-serving bullshit by people who don’t want to admit they are failures and need to go.
No one in government or the private sector is irreplaceable.
An excerpt from the Harper’s article–a good one, q.v.–to which Patty C. linked:
Quote:
_______________
“The best solution to this problem would plainly be for the United States to take it head-on. The issue should be examined closely by a well-regarded non-partisan prosecutor. After all the facts have been fully developed and studied and the legal issues reviewed, a decision should be reached as to whether or not charges should be brought. The public should be prepared to accept that decision, whatever it is.”
_______________
I referenced Mr. Greenwald because he is my favorite legal author next to Professor Turley.
“That assumes that investigation is for show, or otherwise ineffectual…”
I disagree. That is not even a rational assumption, in my view.
It makes no sense to stage a criminal investigation
– ‘for show’…
Forgive me.
Look, I am an educated professional in two specialties
-law and medicine. I post here in my leisure and in between patient crises and my life on a farm in Maine with my So and all our ‘pets’…
Lately, I have been chastised for calling Jill’s incessant anti-Obama posts ‘trash’- meaning entirely disposable and without
any merit that she KNOWS of. In my view, she is ‘paranoid’!
And Gyges day is hardly complete without challenging me on some aspect of my long held and well studied positions and opinions.
Meso and I are original ‘turlees’, whereas these two, AND others, are not -including you, millsapian87…
Surely, you cannot believe I was addressing you, personally. You hardly ever post here.