A Kansas man, Scott Roeder, has been arrested for the murder of Dr. George Tiller (left), 67, who was shot while serving as an usher at his Wichita church Sunday morning. Tiller was one of the few U.S. doctors performing late-term abortions in the country and had previously survived a 1993 shooting outside of his clinic when he was shot in both arms. I discussed this case on this segment of Rachel Maddow Show.
Tiller died Sunday morning in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, where he served as an usher. Witnesses were able to identify the gunman’s car and give police its license plate.
Tiller practiced for 40 years and was the target of fierce criticism and anger. This anger was fueled by commentators like Bill O’Reilly who repeatedly attacked Tiller by name as guilty of “Nazi stuff” and described him as “Tiller the Baby Killer.” For a description of the Fox statements about Tiller, click here.
He is only the latest victim of such an attack. In 1998, Dr. Barnett Slepian was killed by a sniper in his Amherst, New York, home.
In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and a volunteer escort were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida.
In 1993, Dr. David Gunn, was shot to death outside his Pensacola clinic.
Eric Rudolph also attacked clinics, maimed a nurse, and killed an off-duty police in a spasm of violence in 1998. ,
For the full story, click here.
(It is those who bully and pontificate *who* tend to be useful at neither task.)
Actually, when I was a machine-gunner in the military, I dug trenches — not ditches. I have also been a caregiver. Both required my strength and patience, and I fulfilled both roles equally well.
It is those who bully and pontificate tend to be useful at neither task. They’re busy digging their own sorts of holes… such as graves for anyone who dares contradict them.
Jim Byrne,
In your attack on DOMINO you made a comment that, in my opinion, totally undermines your argument. You said:
“Most women will agree that they are much better than men when it comes to providing love and care. Alternately, most men will concur that they are better suited to be the hunter gatherers.
When it comes to physical strength, most men will prevail.
We may not like it, but it was our Creator that made this determination.”
First off, in hunter/gatherer societies the men were the hunters and the women were the gathers – you make it sound like the men did all the work and the women were just responsible for raising the children which is just plain wrong. Also, just so there is no mistake, both the hunting and the gathering were of equal importance to primitive societies (though one could easily make the argument that gathering was more important and required greater knowledge while hunting was more dangerous and glamorous). But to follow your conclusion to its logical end, the creator made the determination that women would have the physical and mental skills needed to gestate, give birth to, and nurture offspring from conception to adulthood, thus women are the only ones qualified to make decisions on matters such as abortion. Although I am an atheist, I am perfectly willing to accept this conclusion and leave these decisions up to wise women, are you? None of the women I know who had abortions made the decision easily or lightly and adding the disapproval of people who by your argument are not equipped to understand their decision seems to me to be a cruel and unreasonable thing to do.
One more quick point (a nitpick really): You say that human DNA is passed to the zygote within 24 hours of conception. From where is DNA passed to the zygote? All of the DNA comes from the sperm and the egg and is present in the fertilized egg at conception. Are you sure that the morning after pill is okay? (Careful, you’re standing on a very slippery slope here…)
You just click on the video, Jill. It will take you to YouTube to view it.
Domino,
The video now says: “embedding disabled by request” and won’t play. What was the jist of what they said?
Thanks,
Jill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo
What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.
Oops, make that “our good fellow Jim.” Wrong saint. Mea culpa.
Jim Byrne:
“How long are we to live by uninformed decisions of the Court. Stare Decisis is a flawed doctrine. It forces an entire country to be bound to the ignorance of their past.”
***********
Nope, no holding on to outmoded religious, ethical, or moral tenets of the past for Jim (like soul at conception). Every day is a new day with new rules and new ideas. Who needs consistency or order, let’s allow Jim and the mob to decide afresh every time someone postulates new “knowledge” or ways of doing things. Anyone remember the swine flu vaccination in 1976…and thalidomide, now there’s innovation. Who cares if a few old sickies died or were deformed, it was new and break-though wasn’t it? We don’t need some moldy hand from the past carrying some feigned knowledge gained by centuries of experience telling us what to do. We get it! And the law, well damn the law– especially when it conflicts with some passionate minority’s view of the world. Throw it and the lawyers out. Out, out damned spot!! We must innovate–let the passions of the moment rule–and lawyers slow things down with all that deliberation and thoughtful legal writing!
You know De Tocqueville warned us about this kind of “thinking” years ago, and explained the key role lawyers play in stemming it:
“The special information that lawyers derive from their studies ensures them a separate rank in society, and they constitute a sort of privileged body in the scale of intellect. This notion of their superiority perpetually recurs to them in the practice of their profession: they are the masters of a science which is necessary, but which is not very generally known; they serve as arbiters between the citizens; and the habit of directing to their purpose the blind passions of parties in litigation inspires them with a certain contempt for the judgment of the multitude. Add to this that they naturally constitute a body; not by any previous understanding, or by an agreement that directs them to a common end; but the analogy of their studies and the uniformity of their methods connect their minds as a common interest might unite their endeavors.” (De la démocratie en Amérique 1840)
Well of course this must be lost on our good fellow John. It was after all, written in the 19th Century.
Jim writes: Are comotose patients parasites? Can they survive on their own?
Me: depends on the kind of coma. Some comatose patients require little else but feeding tubes. Sunny Von Bulow was one who lived for decades in a coma. Sure they require care, but no one has to wear them under their sweater for years and years. And besides, prolonging life through artificial means like via respirators is not the discussion. killing doctors who do something thet is legal and a woman’s right to choose is the discussion
Jim: Doesn’t the human body naturally reject parasites? What do you think morning sickness is?
Not necessarily. some parasites can live indefinitely in a human host. I think morning sickness has nothing to do with a woman’s body attempting to reject a parasite. Is that what you think it is? I’ll bet you are not a woman and you have no idea what it is like to be pregnant, to choose to terminate or to carry that pregnancy to term. You don’t get to make the decisions for women who do.
You: If we acquire the capability to sustain the life of the fetus, outside of the uteris, at 3 weeks of gestation; would you limit abortions to only those prior to 3 weeks? —
Me: we won’t. And why should we try? isn’t there a better use for medical investigation?
Jim Byrne Writes: and I don’t know what motivates a child molestor either…so should I just mind my own business? I don’t know what motivates a serial killer…So? Should I mind my own business?
Me: Abortion is the law of the land, Jim. Serial murder is not. Neither is child molestation.
Jim: You have successfully demonstrated your ignorance.
Me: hahaha
Jim: You say it’s not an unborn child. I disagree. Why should your opinion have more merit than mine?
Me: because my opinion is based in medical fact, unlike yours.
You: Abortion is the justified taking of human life. -Not justified by me, nonetheless, justified by some.
Me: then fine. Don’t have one. No one is forced to terminate any pregnancy that they cant to carry to term.
Jim: If you want to determine that your life is of more value than the in-uterine life…the law permits you to do that. I don’t have to agree with your decision.
Me: My life is more valuable to me than anyone else’s life, even that of my children. Have you ever flown on an airplane? There is that little skit the flight attendant performs at the beginning of each take-off with the little yellow oxygen mask. In case you are traveling with someone who can’t put the mask on themselves, whose do you put on first Jim? Yours? Theirs? If you didn’t answer yours then you did not pass the test.
In-uterine life as you put it is parasitic in nature. It cannot exist without the host body providing nutrients and a warm wet place to grow.
I’m grateful that safe legal abortion was available to me when I needed one and I don’t regret the decision I made at 22. Not at all.
and it does nothing that affects my ability to love and care for the kids I did bring into the world,later, when I had the resources and maturity to do it thoughtfully.
GWLawSchoolMom,
Are comotose patients parasites? Can they survive on their own?
Doesn’t the human body naturally reject parasites? What do you think morning sickness is?
If we acquire the capability to sustain the life of the fetus, outside of the uteris, at 3 weeks of gestation; would you limit abortions to only those prior to 3 weeks? —
GWLawSchoolMom,
“You don’t know what motivates a woman to seek an abortion so why not do this: mind your own business.”
And I don’t know what motivates a child molestor either…so should I just mind my own business? I don’t know what motivates a serial killer…So? Should I mind my own business?
You have successfully demonstrated your ignorance.
You say it’s not an unborn child. I disagree. Why should your opinion have more merit than mine?
Abortion is the justified taking of human life. -Not justified by me, nonetheless, justified by some.
If you want to determine that your life is of more value than the in-uterine life…the law permits you to do that. I don’t have to agree with your decision.
Jim Byrne writes: Life: A zygote is definitely alive: There is a general consensus that a zygote is: “biologically alive”. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life:
1. metabolism,
2. growth,
3. reaction to stimuli
4. reproduction
The fourth criteria may appear strange. But it can reproduce itself through twinning during the first 14 days after conception. That is how mono-zygotic (identical) twins develop.
So the debate isn’t about human life. It’s about personhood. And personhood inside the womb is hard to establish.
The debate is whether a woman has the right to decide, privately, with her physician whether or not to terminate any unwanted pregnancy, not whether the zygote is alive. It’s life depends on its ability to thrive in the uterus, on the ability of that uterus to carry it to term. Zygotes, fetuses, do not live independent lives of their own. they are parasitic in every sense of the word.
Mike A
You CAN go to Cuba. Just not through the US. YOu can go through Belize or Tijuana, even. Don’t have them stamp your passport, but a separate piece of paper.
Worked for me.
Jim Byrne writes: Oh goody! Our resident feminist has weighed in with a profound and original conclusion.
Domino,
Why don’t you tell us? -Is the unborn child, whose life is terminated during an abortion, a human life?
Isn’t it you, who has made a determination that the life of one is more valuable than the life of the other; just like the KKK?
Was abortion a crime before Roe v. Wade? Did the law books consider abortion to be a crime? When did abortion become a crime?
Me: I’m not Domino and I won’t speak for him/her but for me, I’d love at address the points you raise.
The decision to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, for any reason, is the law of the land. It is a private decision made between a woman and her physician. The value of the pregnancy is for her to determine and her alone. Not you or your pastor or her father or husband or best friend’s boyfriend.
People who have decided that an 8-week old fetus is a child are certainly welcome to their opinion, but it is not. It is a fetus, incapable of supporting life on its own. It is a potential life, not a baby or an unborn child. language like unborn or pre-born is hyperbole and not worth listening to.
People who take the lives of physicians who perform abortions have a warped sense of what life is and who has the right to end that life. It’s funny how many anti-abortion folks have no problem endorsing the murder of physicians and folks who work in family planning clinics, have no problem with the death penalty. Murder is not murder to them it is a religious jihad built on the notion that if the law wont give them what they want, which is control over a woman’s right to choose her own reproductive destiny, then they will by picking off doctors who perform abortions one by one. You might as well wear a sheet and burn a cross on the lawn in front of family planning clinics because what you do, if you are an advocate of murdering doctors, is terrorism, and a hate crime.
Women have been terminating unwanted pregnancy since the beginning of time. They had midwives who were skilled until midwifery was outlawed and then they used dangerous potions and resorted to back-alley butchers. You don’t know what motivates a woman to seek an abortion so why not do this: mind your own business.
Domino,
I think I was right. You appear to have some real gender issues. Do you secretly desire to be a man?
“…but when someone has to sacrifice themselves to all these all these unwanted, disabled, and terminally ill people who need to be loved and cared for and diapered and fed — this is a task inordinately delegated to women.”
Go dig the ditch. Let the man stay home and nurture. It may work out, but chances are you won’t have the strength to do the ditch digging, and the man won’t be very patient.
Most women will agree that they are much better than men when it comes to providing love and care. Alternately, most men will concur that they are better suited to be the hunter gatherers.
When it comes to physical strength, most men will prevail.
We may not like it, but it was our Creator that made this determination. If you don’t like it…send your complaints (SASE) to:
Creator
#1
Universe
In the future, our Creator hopes to have an email address.
Gyges,
I am being intellectually honest. I, myself, have not morally justified killing anyone. I merely explored the possibility that it could be morally justified by someone.
I make my own decisions. I don’t listen to people like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh..or the likes.
Just because I can recognize that someone could morally justify an act, that doesn’t mean that I condone that act.
I haven’t shed any tears for Tiller. I think he was an immoral man performing a lawfully permitted immoral act. Do I think he should have been shot? -The answer is No! Would I send his shooter to prison? -The answer is Yes.
As for scientific proof; what do you want/need?
Are you questioning the fact that a zygote contains only human DNA? Or are you questioning the fact that it is alive?
What will you accept as proof? Will the findings of a molecular biologist provide you with acceptable proof?
Perhaps you should read some of the information provided by biologist Lee Silver. All the human DNA is passed on to the zygote approxiamtely 24 hours after fertilization. (I have no problem with using an abortifacient well prior to that 24 hours.)
It’s so often a man who is railing about the sanctity of life — but when someone has to sacrifice themselves to all these all these unwanted, disabled, and terminally ill people who need to be loved and cared for and diapered and fed — this is a task inordinately delegated to women.
Excuse me “justify the killing…” Singular not plural.
Jim,
First off, I don’t really care how you answer those questions. They were basically a set up for showing that you’re talking about angels dancing on pins to justify the killing of Dr. Tiller. Even though you’re claiming that’s not what you’re doing, you’ve done nothing BUT try and justify the killings… and I quote.
“Is it permissable (sic) to kill in order to protect your own life or the life of another? Why or why not?”
Let’s not forget
“Why is this important and relevant to the killing of Tiller? -If the person that killed Tiller did so to protect the life of another; it may be morally justified. Not everything that is moral is also legal. Breaking the law to do the right thing????”
Now, you can back track all you want and say “I was just posing philosophical questions,” or “I was just trying to see things from another point of view,” but you, I, and everyone reading this discussion know you were implying that Dr. Tiller was shot to protect what you consider human lives. This isn’t some game of “my hypothetical can beat up your hypothetical,” this is a living person with getting killed. So please, show some respect by having a tiny bit of intellectual honesty.
Also about the whole “science can prove…” thing, you are making a claim, back it up or be quiet. The instant you bring science into the discussion is the instant you start having to show proof. The nice part about science is: everything’s documented and widely available. So if you’re right an scientists all agree that a zygote is human life, it should be VERY easy to find proof of that.