The United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict will issue a report today accusing Israel of “actions amounting to war crimes, possibly crimes against humanity” during its military incursion into Gaza from December 27 to January 18. The mission headed by respected South African judge Richard Goldstone is a major development in the controversy and could put the United States in a very difficult position.
The 400-page report was written without the cooperation of Israel, which insisted that the body should have considered “the thousands of Hamas missiles attacks on civilians in southern Israel that made the Gaza Operation necessary.” There is no question that those acts are crimes themselves and are relevant to any reviewing of the cause or justification for the invasion. However, this investigation focused on how the invasion was carried out — a separate issue.
Goldstone, who is Jewish, has previously indicated that the group found clear evidence of violations of international law in the invasion.
The UN found that Israel failed to minimize casualties, used white phosphorous in civilian areas, intentionally fired upon hospitals using high-explosive artillery shells, and did not effectively warn civilians of attacks. It also accused some Israeli soldiers of using civilians as human shields and attacking food supplies for civilians.
The mission does call on the Palestinians to investigate war crimes by their side and to release soldier Gilad Shalit.
In the most worrisome part for Israel, the mission calls for an investigation by the International Criminal Court for possible war crimes prosecutions. Goldstone previously denounced Hamas for war crimes.
If Israel defies such an investigation, it would be in the same position as Serbia and other rogue nations. This could further isolate the country at a time when it has allowed the controversial “natural growth” of settlements in occupied areas.
With the hardline government of Binyamin Netanyahu, there will be a considerable effort to oppose any war crimes prosecution and he will likely look to the United States to help block that effort. The government has already denounced the findings as “propaganda,” here. After dismissing the Obama Administration’s demands for a halt to the settlement construction, it will be an awkward moment for Netanyahu to demand the U.S. use its power to stop an investigation. However, there will be many in Congress who will likely assist in that effort.
Of course, Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder are already limiting any domestic investigation into war crimes committed by our government in its torture program.
For the story, click here.
“Really? There was no Palestine and no ‘Palestinian’ people? How do we distinguish Palestinian from Semite Mike? Do I hear it said that all Semites are Jews? If I were an anti-Semite, would I be anti-Jew or anti-Arab? Perhaps anti-Palestinian?”
Bob, Esq.,
You might find them tedious but I really suggest you read my many posts on semite and the term anti-Semitic. You will see I don’t accept the appellation “semite” for either Jews or Arabs, nor do I believe either of us constitues a “race,” however muddled the definition of any race as a subdivision of humanity is. You will see by the attached wiki (incomplete but quickly serviceable) that the original term was used by a German in the mid 18th Century to denote a language group and was borrowed to define people with the Mid East in their backgrounds. Wiki is someone incomplete on the full details in that in the mid to late 19th Century semite was used by the eugencists to define people from the Mid East. Incidently, the eugenicists used the term semite to denote a group racially inferior to the Aryan (white)stock. This term was later picked up by the NAZI’s. I’ve explained this at least two or three times before and used it to explain why I never use the term anti-semitic, or semite to refer to people who hate Jews. I guess you haven’t read any of my posts on this subject. Therefore though, I reject your premise above and reject the Merriam Webster quote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semite
“While I appreciate the history lesson, I must inform you that this line of argument leads no where but to an irrelevant dead end per the topic of Israel’s self-perceived moral immaculateness.”
Bob where have I ever talked of or defended Israel as a place of “moral immaculateness?” You seem to be debating a perception and not me. I think I deserve the courtesy of being debated on my own words and not on your perception of what they might be.
“That is why people call for the destruction of Israel. It was created illegally.”
That is why I began my post with the question of whether that was Bob, or Bob, Esq. I see by your reply that you weren’t Bob so on that point never mind, I attributed it to you incorerectly. This has happened to me, since there are various Mikes posting.
“We are talking about Israel’s overall dialogue of entitlement to use “ILL WILL” (in the Kantian sense) towards whoever it wants; implicitly using my sister’s form of reasoning to exempt itself from any metaphysics of morals whatsoever — including the very religion upon which it bases its thinly veiled theocracy.”
Most of what you write here Bob is personal opinion, despite your cloaking it in philosophical terms. I get it. you believe Israel behaves immorally and feels entitled to because of its’ history and you believe that it is a theocracy. That’s your belief, it isn’t mine. Both are opinions that can be defended.
What’s the point, we disagree strongly? Remember, you called me out specifically because I’m Jewish, so I answered you on my terms, obviously you don’t accept them. Tough.
“Mike, as a Kantian, I’m constrained to inform you that true morality is rooted in the non spacio-temporal concept known as principles. Morality, as a general rule, is not a product of His-Story.”
I’m happy for you that you have a philosopher you believe in. I’m not sure his definition of morality is one I’d agree with or actually even be interested in. My philosopher of choice is Rabbi Hillel, who propounded:
“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.
“If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when?”
Besides Hillel the same formulations were first propounded by Confuscious, then the Buddha, Hindu’s Jews and Jesus. I like them and try to live by them. You no doubt believe Israel doesn’t live by them and there we differ somewhat, with me also believing that no country in history has lived by them, or by any morality at all. Morality is almost inimical to the notion of being a State. Sad, but altogether true.
As to philosophy in general it has never really interested me, but I’m sure it has given you a lifetime of enjoyment and enlightenment. I go with the person who did the original quote, which I only poorly paraphrase.
All philosophy, throughout all of history, is simply an elaboration of what the average human thnks to themselves as they take their Saturday night baths.
To wit:
What is life?
What am I?
Why am I here?
What should I do?
My own belief is that it is more helpful to answer these questions for myself, rather than look to authority.
“How about New York? You really think the screen writers for Casablanca weren’t serious when they wrote this exchange:”
NYC was the first place I experienced anti-Jewishness and it is the place where my parents and grandparents experienced much more hate than the anti-Jewishness I experienced. I know that you have little sympathy for this obviously, but then you can’t know what it’s like to be Jewish, or Black, or Arab, or Native American. When it comes to being Jewish and what people feel and believe as Jews, I have some expertise. Truthfully, there was something insultingly smug about the whole of this part of your post, but then that’s you.
“Admit it, you’re getting carried away”
Bob, I’m deadly serious about this, that you can’t empathize is understandable, but mocking me doesn’t do you credit I’m afraid.
“You never addressed the invasion and destruction of Lebanon; most likely because its embarrassingly immoral”
Bob, I’m no fan of Ariel Sharon and never was, but the Lebanon thing is not the clearcut moral issue you believe it to be. Let’s instead cut to the chase. You called me out because if you’ve read anything in the past, you knew I support Israel and defend Israel’s existence. However, in supporting Israel and defending its’ existence that doesn’t mean I accept it when Israel behaves badly, or that I defend all of its leaders. I have made that abundantly clear in everything I’ve written of the topic.
“That said, I ask you; morally speaking is a Jew obliged to defend Israel no matter what does? Morally speaking Mike.
Morally speaking.”
Nice technique for cross examination, silly in other contexts.
However, before I explain why let me say that no Jew has a duty to defend Israel if their own moral imperatives are breeched and I personally wouldn’t.
However, you reject my historical concerns seeming to deem them irrelevant to your line of discussion. The morality of an issue doesn’t exist in a vacuum as much as you would seem to want it to. Nations never behave morally, but only in their own self interest. I would think that would be obvious to a man of your erudition, but apparently it isn’t. So to put it in your terms I don’t believe that Israel has yet crossed any line into despicable immorality and I note that in this issue in the Mid East nobody’s hands are clean, or morals intact.
Your value judgment deems that Israel has behaved badly, over and above all the nations and people’s around her. I don’t believe that to be the case. There we stand. Frankly, Bob you could call me anything you want and it really wouldn’t matter to me, because I believe I’m right and I certainly believe I know much more about the issue than you do. Will this turn into a battle of posts, going on ad infinitum with post after post from each of us refuting the other. I decline. As the Yiddush expression goes “Call me pisher.” I have said before I don’t wish to do a whole debate on this topic, not because I couldn’t debate anyone here to at least a draw, but simply because there is no changing people’s belief systems.
Believe as you will Bob and I know you will, but at least do me the courtesy not to mock the depth of my belief in what I believe.
“American Jews should find someone else to fund their holy Disneyland”
Mike K,
I guess when you think you’ve get a good line you can’t help using it, defending your position would be a lot more desirable.
I already answered the same line in another thread and you didn’t refute me, so I won’t bother with a response at this point.
Bogart had a most unique screen presence. So did Richard Widmark. I think the stars of yesteryear were the greatest. They had a certain star quality and presence that seemed to transcend the very films they starred in. Innocence and wholesomeness come to mind. Great films with no profanity and “zero” nudity, and the stories, those great stories..
Bob, I love Casablanca, it is one of my favorites. You too make “many” valid points, I get pumped up just reading your posts,you guys bravo! John Huston after he directed “Treasure of the Sierra Madre” said, “In Hollywood you have Humphrey Bogart and than you have everybody else”. How true, their will always be only one Bogie..
Mike S.: “Bob,Esq. (Was that you before posting as Bob alone?)”
No.
Mike S.: “First, there are no “Palestinian” people except for the Israeli’s and never were until 1964 and a brilliant Saudi Arabian, or hired, Public Relations man started calling the people dispossessed by Israel’s war of independence Palestinians. Up until that point the Israeli’s were alternatively called Palestinians all over the world and in the media. THe PR guy was brilliant because by giving this group of displaced Arabs a name, the name being used for the Israeli’s alternatively, it created the ability to make them into a martyred people.”
Really? There was no Palestine and no ‘Palestinian’ people? How do we distinguish Palestinian from Semite Mike? Do I hear it said that all Semites are Jews? If I were an anti-Semite, would I be anti-Jew or anti-Arab? Perhaps anti-Palestinian?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite
Or is that simply a name given to a displaced group of people earlier than you claim the Palestinians were categorized?
While I appreciate the history lesson, I must inform you that this line of argument leads no where but to an irrelevant dead end per the topic of Israel’s self-perceived moral immaculateness.
Mike S.: “Second, I would love people to be specific as to what Countries in the world are legal.”
Mike, where in my post did I bring into question the legality of the existence of the state of Israel? Granted I blame the limeys for the mess, just as much as I blame the limeys for the Kashmir problem, but … Next…
Mike S.: “Third, the reason that Jordan no longer wants the West Bank back and Egypt no longer wants Gaza, both of which were formerly parts of their country and were occupied by Israel after the 1967 war, is that…”
Is that it bears no relevance to the issue of Israel acting like my sister; which, I remind you, is a point you already assented to in your previous reply. We are talking about Israel’s overall dialogue of entitlement to use “ILL WILL” (in the Kantian sense) towards whoever it wants; implicitly using my sister’s form of reasoning to exempt itself from any metaphysics of morals whatsoever — including the very religion upon which it bases its thinly veiled theocracy.
Mike S.: “Fourth, have the proto-Palestinians been screwed royally for all these years and deserve sympathy? Absolutely, but just who screwed them is not as easy as it looks.”
Mike, as a Kantian, I’m constrained to inform you that true morality is rooted in the non spacio-temporal concept known as principles. Morality, as a general rule, is not a product of His-Story.
Mike S.: “Seventh, why should I a loyal American Jew who does not want to live in Israel, care so much about this tiny, embattled foreign country? If the fascist shit ever hits the fan in America and it well might, where does a Jew like me and his family go?”
How about New York? You really think the screen writers for Casablanca weren’t serious when they wrote this exchange:
Major Strasser: Are you one of those people who cannot imagine the Germans in their beloved Paris?
Rick: It’s not particularly my beloved Paris.
Heinz: Can you imagine us in London?
Rick: When you get there, ask me!
Captain Renault: Hmmh! Diplomatist!
Major Strasser: How about New York?
Rick: Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn’t advise you to try to invade.
Admit it, you’re getting carried away. Even the teen culture that doesn’t know who the first president was or that Patton fought in WWII and not the Civil War are enlightened enough to never allow their friends, favorite comedians and favorite deli owners to be rounded up in any way. You also have the entire world watching.
But as to my original points, here’s where we stand:
1. You assent to the comparison between Israel and my sister.
2. While you claim to not defend Israel, you did in fact attempt to defend Israel’s lack of morality by invoking irrelevant His-Storical arguments.
3. You assented to the claim that Israel is engaged in carrying out apartheid policies.
4. You never addressed the invasion and destruction of Lebanon; most likely because its embarrassingly immoral and a macro-cosmic example of the comparison between my sister and Israel.
5. That said, I ask you; morally speaking is a Jew obliged to defend Israel no matter what does? Morally speaking Mike.
Morally speaking.
Buddha, I wish to extend an “olive branch”. I apologize for the “less than wonderful” remarks I made. It was uncharitable of me, I would like to proceed forward in a spirit of being amicable to each other.
We need to stop supporting Israel with our tax dollars. No one is starving there! American Jews should find someone else to fund their holy Disneyland.
My cousin attended Rensselaer, he is a petrologist in Washington state. I love it up around Pullman. I love the campus at WSU, my old friend Dr. Grover Krantz was a professor of Physical Anthroplogy at WSU. He was an accomplished primatologist and anatomist as well. He also was one of the “few” scientists who was willing to stick his neck out and defend the Patterson film fronm 67′.
Mike, you need to be lecturing at Columbia or Rensselaer, you’re just to good..
“Mike, would you consider me ‘off base’ in seeing an incredible similarity between my sister and Israel?”
Bob,Esq. (Was that you before posting as Bob alone?),
I would consider you being on target exactly, rather than off base, if you think differently then you are misreading me. One of the great problems the Israeli’s have is that they react the same way that your sister does and I give them no credit for it and believe it actually exascerbates their problems. They are a country that has literally constantly been on a war footing for more than 60 years and their citizenry has reacted in a manner commensurate with that. That is why thugs like Begin got elected in the first place and Bibi is in now. They promise “tough” action and a war weary population has voted its’ fears and in my opinion voted badly.
“BTW Mike, you know I addressed this one to you because you’d pick up the counter point of defending Israel.”
“And speaking of ‘other countries,’ how many other countries besides South Africa, have been accused by an ex-president of carrying out policies of apartheid?”
I’m not a fan of Jimmy Carter’s, but for reasons other than Israel. What he pointed out is valid and it is why consistently on this site I have stated that the answer to this problem is for Israel to vacate the West Bank, remove all of the Israeli settlers there and provide a slim connecting corridor between that and Gaza. for Israel to continue with its’ occupation would create an apartheid situation and not only do I find that morally intolerable as a Jew, but politically not viable as a supporter of Israel remaining a Jewish State. I would think that is not quite the defense of Israel you expected from me, but if that is the case you haven’t really been reading my ongoing comments on the issue. Nevertheless, I anticipate I have to fully lay out my position here, or my beliefs will be misread, and/or open to further dissection.
First, there are no “Palestinian” people except for the Israeli’s and never were until 1964 and a brilliant Saudi Arabian, or hired, Public Relations man started calling the people dispossessed by Israel’s war of independence Palestinians. Up until that point the Israeli’s were alternatively called Palestinians all over the world and in the media. THe PR guy was brilliant because by giving this group of displaced Arabs a name, the name being used for the Israeli’s alternatively, it created the ability to make them into a martyred people. There has never been an Arab State called Palestine in all of history and indeed the name comes from the Roman Phillistinia, which the region was renamed after crushing Bar Kochba’s revolt in the Second Century BCE and not from its indigenous population
Second, I would love people to be specific as to what Countries in the world are legal. While statutes have been written there really is no International Law in this world that all nations abide by and adhere to. Is the US legal? Ask the Native Americans
or the Brits. Is Britain legal? Ask the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh. Is France legal? Ask the Bretons. Italy? Ask Sicillians?
Russia? Ask Chechens. China? Ask Tibetans India? Ask the people from Kashmir and so on until one gets to the Mid East. How did the States there get formed sfter the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? The country’s now there were formed by Imperialist entities, like Great Britain who figured a new way to retain control, without the expense of having a protectorate.
Third, the reason that Jordan no longer wants the West Bank back and Egypt no longer wants Gaza, both of which were formerly parts of their country and were occupied by Israel after the 1967 war, is that they know that the proto-Palestinian people are a difficult lot. Jordan expelled them after Black September in 1970, when they tried to take over the country. This incident is somehow nevere referred to any more and I wonder why?
Fourth, have the proto-Palestinians been screwed royally for all these years and deserve sympathy? Absolutely, but just who screwed them is not as easy as it looks. When the 1947 war broke out the Israeli government literally begged the indigenous Arab population to stay and possibly fight along with them. The massed Arab country’s who attacked Israel certain of victory due to the troop differential and wide arms differential called on them to flee their homes to allow the Arab Armies to overwhelm the Israeli’s and “throw the Jews into the sea.” Some Arabs stayed, many more fled and some who were aiding with their fellow Arabs were thrown out. After the unexpected Israeli victory, without US aid by the way, because despite stereotypes Jews can be warriors, there were displaced Arabs from Israel all over the Mid-East.
Fifth, instead of welcoming their Arab brethren and taking care of them the Arab Countries put them into segregated camps and treated them poorly. The Saudi’s et. al., smarting from the disgrace of being beaten by Jews wanted to use them as a living reminder to the defeat and a focus of pity for the world. They thus were treated horribly for years and confined to in effect Concentration Camps. In 1964 Egypt called a conference which helped create the PLO. In 1968, Yassir Arafat the leader of the Fatah section rose to leadership. Arafat, born an Egyptian, had a nexus to Jerusalem because his Uncle, a Nazi supporter, had been Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Arafat was the champion of Guerilla warfare. He worked closely with the Arab governments and lived the life of the billionaire he became, while his “people” lived in wretched poverty.
Sixth, Israel is not going away so what is the solution to it all? THe solution is a separate/independant Arab State consisting of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza and a strip leading from the West Bank to Gaza. Most Israeli’s, except for the idiot ultra-Orthodox, Likud and the settlers, very close to the same thing, accept this as the end game. What’s preventing it is a mixture of Israel’s right wing, Saudi and Arab oil interests and the intransigence of the various groups like Fata and Hamas, who want the whole loaf.
Seventh, why should I a loyal American Jew who does not want to live in Israel, care so much about this tiny, embattled foreign country? If the fascist shit ever hits the fan in America and it well might, where does a Jew like me and his family go? To a concentration camp, not likely, they would have to kill me and I wouldn’t go down easy. To other countries? We have WWII as an example of the desire of other countries to admit Jews in stress. The only place for myself and/or my progeny will be Israel. It is no doubt hard for non-Jews to understand, but after the Nazi’s the Jewish feelings of those connected to their roots is “Never Again.” Yet of all the religions and/or ethnic groups in the world we have only one little bit of land that will positively accept us and where we will if necessary make our final stand. Any Jew who knows the last 2,500 years of our history knows that Jews finally have to count on themselves, since we really can’t count on anyone else.
Love the “bloated green face”, Halloween is just around the bend..
There is no way to conduct a “Fact finding Mission” like this and not have it biased. Has anyone here ever been involved in urban warfare? I seriously doubt it. Has anyone here ever been involved with guerilla warfare? Again i bet not.
I have and i can tell you that there is no way i repeat NO WAY! they can confirm how many militants and civilians were killed. They will never come close. Palestinians that were fighting were not wearing uniforms and as soon as they were killed the weapons were taken by other fighters. That is how you fight a guerilla war. They do this on purpose because the best weapon they have is the media. Look at history people and open your damn eyes. They want to look like the victims so this kind of thing happens.
In my opinion and according to International Law in many cases Israel held back force. Of the civilized countries in the world Israel is one of the best in protecting civilians. Urban Warfare has many civilian casualties, it is unavoidable. If any of you were ever involved in it you would know. The “Fact finding Mission” was comprised of several people who do not even reconize Israel as a country. So the report is completely biased. Also the people looking into have no direct experience in urban or guerilla warfare so again it is biased and unreliable.
If anything this report lets people who know what they are doing and are very familiar with warfare that we will never be protected by the U.N. That we can not trust them to keep us in their best interest. I’m just relieved to know that Israel is doing right thing in saying that they do not hold any one of their military members responsible for the Alleged crimes.
Good luck Israel.
Charlie
If you disagree but lack experience in the actual subjects involved in the report keep any comments to yourself. oh and don’t believe everything you see in the news.
Correction, they are in need of your “razor sharp wit and irrelevancies”. Pardon the hurried post..
Buddha, you’re late for the second part of the Acorn deposition, hurry up! They are in need of your razor sharp wit and irrelevacies..
Aww, what’s the matter billywaynejoebobtrollpants? Did your nick slip again or do those nasty meds make you forgetful? Or is it the absence of meds that make you act the way you do? See, all we can see from this end is the product of your delusions, Wayne. This isn’t like TV where the people on the screen can see directly into your brain but still lining your head with tinfoil might help. You could always ask your buddy the Pope for help but being the God’s #1 Guy ™ he sure seems to like his bulletproof glass. Seems a little conflicted. Much like yourself. But you keep on keeping on. Past a certain scale all sets contain negative values.
If Voltaire were alive today, he would be laughing hysterically at most of these posted comments.
Mike S.:
“Israel has earned its’ being targeted for opprobrium, but sadly not more so, or to the extent of many other countries.”
Mike, did I ever tell you about my sister who was sexually molested at gunpoint? Did I ever tell you that one of the psychological problems she exhibited afterward was a sens of entitlement to react disproportionately harsh to anyone and treat people as badly as she wanted without justification? She always made it clear in her actions that “since she was hurt in the past, then no one dare so much as step on an egg shell to stop her from hurting people now.”
Mike, would you consider me ‘off base’ in seeing an incredible similarity between my sister and Israel?
BTW Mike, you know I addressed this one to you because you’d pick up the counter point of defending Israel.
And speaking of ‘other countries,’ how many other countries besides South Africa, have been accused by an ex-president of carrying out policies of apartheid?
AND, this one is truly my pet peeve, how many other countries bombed the infrastructure of an entire country on the basis of the alleged detainment of two soldiers? Which is worse; Bush & Cheney defrauding the country into bombing Iraq or Israel propagandizing its citizens and the West to justify their bombing of Lebanon?
Larry makes a good point. We certainly shouldn’t expect Israel to abide by a higher standard of behavior than terrorists.
The middle east is a hot bed for rabid discussion. Both sides seem somewhat inflexible. Mike, do you feel that any kind of reconciliation between both parties/ideologies is possible?
It’s a sad state of affairs when one doesn’t understand the distinction between war crimes and war; and when one applies to the opposing sides different standards to what one considers a war crime.