A new Rasmussen poll reveals that 58% of people polled would like to see Flight 253 bombing suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tortured for information. It is not just an indictment of our values but another byproduct of President Obama’s blocking of any independent investigation and prosecution of torture under the Bush Administration. By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.
The poll asked individuals: “Should waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques be used to gain information from the suspected bomber?” The result was 58% yes, to only 30% who said no. I was asked the same question during this segment of The Situation Room.
What is astonishing is that this poll occurred virtually as people were leaving for churches and synagogues to celebrate the holidays. I guess that walking on water thing was just a prelude to waterboarding the Pharisees.
For the full story, click here.
Elaine:
Personally I nominate Henry Waxman. Tom Delay is gone or he would have been number one. After that take them alphabetically and vote them out. Hopefully 2010 will be a big year for the “I” column.
Who do you like for “first” off the ship?
Byron–
“we should do it now, why wait?”
I’m game. Who do you think should be first to go???
“Jefferson, Madison & friends would be dragging lobbyists and Congressmen out into the streets by the scruff of the neck if they came back to see what had been done to their creation.”
we should do it now, why wait?
Dennis Kucinich on The Bailout
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaF_MZVWM3E&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
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Dennis Kucinich tells the awful truth about the bailout
by Ben Cohen (Daily Banter)
Excerpt:
“Congressman Dennis Kucinich, never a man to bend on principle, has not accepted the bill, and delivered a scathing assessment in the U.S House of Representatives. Painted as a buffoon by the media and rest of the political establishment, Kucinich is one of the only politicians left speaking truth to power.”
http://www.thedailybanter.com/tdb/dennis_kucinich/
Your mistake Byron is assuming that self interest is rational for all. Simply because you are rational does not mean everyone is rational. Ergo, you are relying upon an unreliable.
However, promoting altruism and punishing greed can both be systemically managed. They don’t depend on an individuals flawed judgement or broken reasoning. That’s why we are supposed to be a country of laws, not men – to remove the caprice of insane monarchs. When the individual in charge is insane? You get guys like Nero, Caligula, King George II and Hitler. Monsters surrounded by other monsters.
This was the vision of our Founding Fathers – a self correcting mechanism of state that is concerned with liberty and justice for all. Not just those who make the most campaign contributions. A system that worked for the common good, not the corporate good. This is now the Fascist States of America. Jefferson, Madison & friends would be dragging lobbyists and Congressmen out into the streets by the scruff of the neck if they came back to see what had been done to their creation.
If you want to see someone competent penalized for their looks by the media look no further than the only one on the Hill I’d act to protect when revolution comes: Kucinich. He gets it. He got before the “war” too. He is an actual public servant. Most of the rest of them aren’t worth the gas it’d take to set them on fire. Which is ironic considering who they sold out to.
Mespo:
I’ll take rational self interest over greed and altruism.
But good point about looks and personality needing to be down played. I might even have a chance in that event.
Byron:
“So how do you attract serious people to the political process?”
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First we start by teaching that democracy is not a spectator sport and everyone has the obligation to serve if they have the ability to do so. Second we teach that, contray to Gordon Gecko, greed is not good. Altruism is good,as is public spiritedness. This is especially true among the social elite.
Here are the words from Ted Kennedy’s unrivaled eulogy for his brother Bobby adressing that point:
” Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. And I believe that in this generation those with the courage to enter the moral conflict will find themselves with companions in every corner of the globe.
For the fortunate among us, there is the temptation to follow the easy and familiar paths of personal ambition and financial success so grandly spread before those who enjoy the privilege of education. But that is not the road history has marked out for us. Like it or not, we live in times of danger and uncertainty. But they are also more open to the creative energy of men than any other time in history. All of us will ultimately be judged, and as the years pass we will surely judge ourselves on the effort we have contributed to building a new world society and the extent to which our ideals and goals have shaped that event.”
I think once you downplay the role of looks and personality, the competent will come forward. We are too much the land of hype caused by our consumer society. Substance is what counts in a crisis, and that may be just where we are headed. It took the Depression of the 30’s to drag us back from the foolishness of the 20’s. If a similar collision with reality is what it takes to put us back on track, let it come.
Excellent Post Elaine M.
Byron & Blouise–
”I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them.”
I think that is a very true statement, except for people who vote strictly because of party affiliation.
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Sometimes we vote for the lesser of two evils.
I fault the media for the way they cover and present political candidates. Some members of the media seem to have a preconceived idea of what a presidential candidate should look like/be like. I think the press and many Americans prefer style over substance. I couldn’t watch some of the presidential debates because I was dumbfounded by some of the idiotic questions that the candidates were asked. For example, Clinton was once asked why people seem to like Obama better than her. In addition, certain candidates were excluded from some of the presidential debates.
There are too many talking heads on TV spouting the party line and not having substantial in-depth discussions about important matters. There’s too little investigative journalism and too much “opinioning.”
Mespo:
“I am tired of this homage to the clown because he makes us laugh. I’ll take a boring old competent guy anytime.”
But who would vote for him/her? And where are all the boring competent guys/gals? Most likely doing serious work in industry, the military or academia and having no interest in politics.
So how do you attract serious people to the political process?
“Teaching critical thinking skills are where our education system is woefully inadequate.”
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I started to say something else and missed changing the verb. Make that “is where.”
BLouise:
Stay on up there on that soapbox. Teaching critical thinking skills are where our education system is woefully inadequate. Too trusting means not enough thinking. Your efforts are laudable, but the true solution lies in electing people without the visage and flighty-headedess necessary for mass media. We need serious people in office because the job is serious. I am tired of this homage to the clown because he makes us laugh. I’ll take a boring old competent guy anytime.
Bdaman:
If you are for torture I think you are wrong, it really doesn’t do much good. If I had someone pulling my nails out, I would tell them whatever they wanted to know. And if they played Joan Baez, Bob Dylan or Peter Paul and Mary I would tell them the truth just so they would turn it off.
Blouise:
” I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them.”
I think that is a very true statement, except for people who vote strictly because of party affiliation.
Jill,
I maybe wrong but I think you owe Swartzmoremom an apology. I see you have commented on other threads today and have yet to address a potential word fight on this one, that you started. Please for the respect of the professor, this Blawg and The civility of this site, do so.
If I am wrong, please state that I have no right to bring up the matter as you can be as offensive as you wish?
Stealing and misrepresentation are your speciality. We expect as much from the King of Copy Pasters. We don’t expect you to have an original thought since all the ones you’ve expressed up to this date have been spoon fed to you by propagandists and special interests – interests that do not have your or anyone but their own selfish venal self interests at heart even if they are paying you, bdafool.
1) The only hoax here is you. See, the word you were looking for is FRAUD, bdabadwriter. A hoax is perpetuated for the sake of the hoax and does not have a profit motive. A fraud, on the other hand, is a trick played for money – like invading Iraq. Contrast with a confidence game, which is a long term fraud – like invading Iraq. Word choice is not your strong suit. Technically speaking, you are likely a hoax being driven by a fraud. If you are being paid, which many here suspect, then that’d make you a fraud instead of a hoax. A hoax is by some measure better than being a fraud or a con man. English. You should get some. In more ways than one. (That’s a pool joke just in case it went over your head.)
2) Capital punishment is not ipso facto cruel and unusual. Waterboarding IS torture and against the law. Holding prisoners indefinitely without charge or trial IS against the law.
The way we conduct capital punishment is economically nonsensical. But you are an expert in nonsensical. I have no issue with killing an actual convicted terrorist. None at all . . . as long as a fair and impartial trier of fact hears the case and you agree to try and execute the treasonous traitors within our own government first.
Killing bad guys isn’t the issue.
It’s actually your bosses prime driver that is the issue: money.
The economics of the situation dictate that it’s cheaper to simply warehouse prisoners – a bit of something I learned here from other posters. Imagine that, bdamissedopportunites. You might learn something here. Nah! Who am I kidding. Learning – as opposed to programming – does not seem to be your strong suit or you’d know there is a difference between torture and capital punishment. The “good” news is that the programming seems to have taken in your case. However, until there is a streamlined appeals process in place for death row inmates, I am going to be against capital punishment for anyone let alone terrorists. To be otherwise is to urge fiscal irresponsibility on government. Isn’t that something the Neocons schill for? Small government so they can steal the money for themselves? You bet it is. And warehousing should be their preferred outcome as Cheney owns a huge state in the private prison company formerly known as Wackenhut. See what happens when you follow the money?
3) Again, you don’t like being considered an evil fascist troll worthy of only scorn and derision? Then change your ways or quit whining like a baby about being under perpetual attack by every other poster here (excluding the times you’ve assumed fake ID’s to agree with yourself – the propaganda tactic of false consensus, a tactic which has failed you miserably in the past). Since you’ve sided with the enemy in every respect both internal and external?
Own your villainy.
You think you b da man? Then act like a man and own your errors.
Speaking of evil, I liked the way you clumsily slipped Yemen into the war rhetoric . . . just like your master’s instructed. Next, you’ll be mentioning Somalia or whatever other target your Neocon masters want to attack for their balance sheets next. It’s no accident the countries you mention all have oil. I will stipulate including Saudi Arabia, a country any American paying attention wants reduced to rubble and their rulers awaiting trial for attacking American citizens on 9/11, along with Chechnya – a country we have no quarrel with and we’d only invade if we were looking to start a nuclear war with the former Soviet states – was fairly subtle . . . by your propaganda standards anyway. Not by mine, of course, but then again I’m what is known as “an expert”. But enough about me, let’s talk more about your owning your own actions, including villainy.
You complain and complain that you are perceived as one of the bad guys yet you do not see the truth of the group dynamic. If one person sees you as bad, that can be personal animosity (which as I’ve explained before, you aren’t worth the effort to actively hate). If just about everyone in a group sees you as a bad guy (as is the case with the group here)?
Then you are the bad guy.
Yeah, yeah, I know your internal dialog paints you as the hero of this story, but so did Hitler’s. And Pol Pot’s. And Stalin’s. Everyone except sociopaths or other mentally ill people think they are the heroes of their own tales. That’s human nature. It takes a tougher or more sociopathic man than you to be openly evil and embrace it. But you have a role model in your hero Dick “The Shotgun” Cheney.
So own your villainy. Actually “be the man”. Take the red pill or take the blue pill. Either way, make a choice. Because you are only sitting on the fence in your own mind. Regular readers already know where you stand.
This hole you are in regarding how you are perceived and treated based on the perceptions of yourself you create with your words? It is of your own making. No one called you a racist or a bigot or a Neocon until you started acting like one. You dug this hole. Just like the way out would be of your own making. But some people like living in the pit. I’m pretty sure you’re in that last category at this point. You’ve been pointed in the right direction enough times that your static behavior is likely by choice. Your choice. Or you are being paid. Paid troll or merely a dupe, either way, you’re still the designated bad guy. A designation you put upon yourself – with some gusto. The only way to change that is to correct the errors within yourself. Self-rehabilitation. Not a likely outcome. You like to wallow in your own ego. Changing one’s self first requires the self-knowledge that one is not perfect followed by the WORK required to make one’s self a better human. Something you are demonstrably unwilling to do.
Now I know you are going to try to turn this back on me by accusing me of thinking I’m perfect – also a form of ego worship and ergo evil. Simply not true. I am not perfect. I’m wrong from time to time like any other human. What I am though is smarter and wiser than you, both of which were acquired at considerable cost – including a substantial cost to my previous perceptions of self. I didn’t get to be the nice(r) person I am to today without first being a total bastard. At one point, I had a choice. I chose enlightenment. That does not make me perfect. My choice was to do as little harm in the world as possible and work to make TODAY better – not some snake oil afterlife as promised by most religions. What difference does an afterlife make when all energy is conserved. We are all just energy slowed down to resemble what we call matter. It’s all the same thing. We are one with the universe whether we like or hate it or are ignorant of that fact. What we do to harm ourselves harms others as well. This includes being a venal narcissistic pig like your political heroes. It’s going to not just be the death of them eventually, but it could kill everyone. Every last human on Earth could die in the games our leaders are playing at the moment. All so they can feel the illusion that their power is real and that money is better than truth. Real power isn’t the ability to destroy or even possession of chattel. Any clown can destroy. Killing is easy. I can kill a man with two fingers. Creating? That’s a much harder task. It’s also the way civilization advances and the only thing that will move us from the cradle of Earth and into the stars. Some eggs must be broken to create, but your boys seem to want the whole chicken coop busted up.
This is why I fight Neocons with words instead of fists (for now). That makes me on a path toward something better than the illusion of perfection – as much truth and wisdom as can be accumulated in one lifetime no matter how personally unpleasant. That’s not perfection. Perfection is impossible – the Incompleteness Theorems. I’m not a bodhisattva, merely a monk on the path. That’s merely doing my duty as a sentient being to help the universe understand itself. Teneo vestri. Know yourself. This is required before you can know the greater universe around you with any kind of clarity. This costly wisdom includes the lessons required to disarm you before you can counter and indeed generally rip through the lies you cloak yourself in. You have just seen a lesson in action. Did you learn anything? If so, was it the right thing? Given your track record, eh, I kinda doubt it. But there is always hope.
4) Gandhi was wrong. Well, not wrong so much as incomplete. There is another true definition of one person holding forth an assertion that only the speaker thinks is true: insanity. Also an explanation of your ethically degenerate and sock puppet arguments as many of the mentally ill are easily suggestible and more susceptible to propaganda programming. That you perpetually act against your best interests as a citizen, absent a money motive, does not rule out you simply being mad as an explanation for your behavior either. If it’s any consolation? I don’t think you are crazy. Just ineffective, stupid and evil. Small “e”. A puppet of those smarter than you. It’s an important distinction.
There is no reason to attack anyone Personally on this site.
Except for Bdaman
Good one there Jimmy. The lesson there is, even though he was telling the truth, he was chastised, humiliated,scorned called all kinds of names only to be fired and never heard from again.
I’m here for the long haul. Time is on my side, we got three more years of Obumbo and it’s getting colder by the day.
To steal a line from another commenter here.
Attack me all you want I have had the worst things happen to me and I have survived, some of my own making and some at the hands of others.
Gandhi says, even if you are in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.
Global Warming is a hoax and terrorist be them from Ireland to Chechnya, Yemen to Saudi Arabia deserve the electric chair, oh wait, thats cruel and unusual punishment.
Mespo,
The subject of this post, “Poll: 58 Percent of Americans Want Underwear Bomber To Be Tortured” indicates that Jefferson’s thoughts, “Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles.”, are, once again, a present day reality.
Often, over the last 40 years, I have despaired at the process by which we choose our national leaders. The candidates present themselves as “American Idols” and rather than looking at each individual through a magnifying glass, the public dons rose-colored glasses and talks about having a beer with him/her.
My only consolation is to read history and realize that it is not just a present day phenomena but rather an attitude that has plagued us since our founding.
I am a past president of the League of Women Voters and spent years educating voters and as such I know we are not a “dumb” people. In fact, I don’t think it is stupidity at all. I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them. Yes, I’ve heard over and over the phrase, “Oh they’re all crooks!” But the ones who say that believe all the politicians out there who they didn’t vote for are the crooks. The ones they voted for couldn’t be because … well … they voted for ’em.
The schools and parents have to start doing a better job in teaching our children what the Founding Fathers had to say and why. The continued success of the Republic depends on it.
Okay … I’ll get off my soapbox.
Blouise:
You presciently quote the passage I think is at the crux of the issue. Madison postulates his own solution in Federalist 10 which I leave to the readers to review. As you know, I am both a Jefferson and Madison admirer, and I am fully prepared to follow their guidance.
Jefferson fully understood the problem as well:
“I sincerely wish we could see our government so secured as to depend less on the character of the person in whose hands it is trusted. Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles. This is a subject with which wisdom and patriotism should be occupied.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801.
Blouise,
No one has claimed that Jill’s posts are not worth reading. Only asking her not to attack another that holds a view different than hers. She was blasted by a few folks this last week for calling them sexist bigots. She backed down, but never really recanted. she was wrong then as much as she is wrong now for blasting another on this site this very day.
Most of the folks on here are like I, Anonymous. There are a few folks on here that I know personally and are extremely well educated and are well off in one way or another. Whether it be financial or life experiences. T tell someone she does not know how the Muslims feel is out of bounds. How does she know that I am not of Arabic descent or that someone else is not the same or married to a Muslim? To make bald faced dissertations about someone is wrong. In as much as she calls people sexist and bigots, she herself is guilty of the same. Stereotyping and Profiling.
When Jill was getting beat up by someone last year I came to her defense. I will again, if she is personally attacked for her beliefs. That is where I take a stand. She can be as unreasonable as she wants and make statements I disagree with. She is entitled and can even do so with as much bigotry as she wishes. I do not care. But when the personal attacks start, I will disagree and say so.
Thank you for your defense of Jill. You did so well.