There is an interesting controversy brewing over the current version of the health care bill in which Amish families are exempted from the mandatory coverage. Other groups may also receive exemptions.
For some Americans who do not want to pay for health insurance (but face a fine under the law), the exemptions are likely to trigger challenges. Why should an Amish person be allowed exemption, but not someone with political or philosophical opposition to the insurance?
The Amish do use medical facilities and regular doctors, but they pay in cash. They believe that such care is the primary responsibility of their church.
The question is why religious conscientious objectors are given exemptions but not secular conscientious objectors. There are plenty of people who have profound objections to this plan that are not religious based. Is it far to allow only faith-based objectors to get exemptions so that some Christians can apply but not Cato members?
Congress can probably prevail in such distinctions (much like conscientious objectors to the draft), but it raises in my view a legitimate question of fairness.
For the story, click here.
Byron
“I want the pie to grow, you want to stagnate the pie. You dont want anyone to have pie, you want vegetables for everyone.”
Trying to conceal your apathy towards your fellow man by burying it in my euphemisms doesn’t help you any you know.
We print the money Byron. We decide how much is there and who gets what. There’s plenty for all and that’s a fact. But because of people like you who are bridled by greed and selfishness we have a system where most of what we have sits in the hands of a precious few while the rest struggle and often die.
National health care via medicare (which works, I know because my parents were on it for years) isn’t going to rob you of your precious wealth. And it isn’t going to mean you have to have the same health care as those dirty indigents you so despise.
You’ll still be free to go out and purchase supplemental insurance so you can wine and dine while having your gall bladder removed.
It won’t hurt you one little bit that a PORTION of the tax dollars you’re already paying goes to making sure that little girls don’t get their legs amputated because they can’t compete with financial success stories like you.
Well, vegetables would be healthier.
which would mean lower health care costs.
Well, vegetables would be healthier.
I also know people in England who say their system sucks sheeps ass.
30%ER:
“That’s the problem with America today. We’ve become a bunch of selfish, greedy small minded spoiled brats who are more concerned with some undeserving person “getting a piece of my pie” than we are with helping our fellow man.”
I want the pie to grow, you want to stagnate the pie. You dont want anyone to have pie, you want vegetables for everyone.
And you regurgitate left wing tripe that you dont think about.
That’s the problem with America today. We’ve become a bunch of selfish, greedy small minded spoiled brats who are more concerned with some undeserving person “getting a piece of my pie” than we are with helping our fellow man.
“30%er:
there are many people that need help and they should be helped, but there are many that are lazy”
So why don’t you show us all how evolved you are and stop worrying about those you think are “lazy” and keep focused on helping those who should be helped?
We need national health care for every American. Just like any other developed nation. If that health care isn’t good enough for you then no ones stopping you from going out and buying supplemental care.
So much for your argument on the quality of health care under a national system, ay?
The only thing “gooder” than that would be health care where the insurance company just sends us suicide pills.
Its laughable to me to hear you regurgitate right wing lies as if they had some reasonable semblance to truth. They don’t.
I don’t know what country you’ve been living in for the past 50 years but health care in this country is rotten to the core. The insurance programs set up by Tricky Dick Nixon and scumbags over at Kaiser.
When the rest of us can get past people like you and your lies about what YOU think will happen if we simply extended the already functional medicare to every American, then the country will move forward enough to catch up to Europe and the rest of the civilized planet. Until then we’re all stuck in neutral dealing with the nonsense and lies people like you are selling.
“30%er:
I think most things that can be privatized should be.
It is going to cost more to have a government run health care system and the quality is not going to be as good.”
As good as WHAT?
A little girl having her leg amputated?
A family earning 6 figures going bankrupt?
Yea Byron.
Pretty hard to beat that, huh?
30%er:
there are many people that need help and they should be helped, but there are many that are lazy. They should be forced to help themselves, why should I have to pay for someone who is able bodied and of sound mind to sit around and collect a check?
Maybe all the welfare addicts should be forced to cut peoples grass and rake their leaves and shovel their snow. To pay us back for paying their way.
30%er:
I think most things that can be privatized should be.
It is going to cost more to have a government run health care system and the quality is not going to be as good. We are going to pay additional taxes for the “privilege” and we are going to be less free.
I don’t think health care is a right, I don’t think a college education is a right, I think the only rights you have are laid out in the constitution and bill of rights. I don’t think it says free health care for all anywhere.
I use a wheelchair and I am severely disabled and my daughter has CF, I was dropped from my insurance as well when my daughter was born. Your friends company was probably self insured. There are many charities that he can appeal to, and that is as it should be. We should voluntarily help those in need, it should not be forced upon us.
You don’t owe me a new wheelchair or medicine for my daughter and to force you to help me would be abhorrent. My problems are not a claim on your pocket book (which is a claim on your life).
There certainly does need to be reforms in health care but it should not be through the government. Medicare and Social Security are going broke you think health care is going to be any different?
“30%er:
Actually there are more white people on welfare. So I am against lazy crackers.
The reason I am against government run health care is that it will limit my freedom and the more important concept of my owning the right to my work, no one has a legitimate claim to the sweat on my brow. A claim to my labour is a claim on my life. I believe it is called slavery.”
Most people on assistance are not “lazy”. This is another lie being pushed by the neoconservative right wing. While there is rampant corruption the fact is many Americans need assistance and we as an erudite society should be giving it instead of bemoaning those who take advantage of it.
Its amazing to me in this day and age that those in this country, particularly the ones who call themselves Christian, are more concerned about their precious tax dollars going to some undeserving individual than they are about helping the poor and those in need.
I’d rather that we give out welfare to 20 million undeserving souls than let one deserving one go without.
“I know socialism sounds good but does it really provide a high standard of living to the most people or does it restrict our standard of living?” – Byron
You’re kidding right? You’re pretending to be a reasonable blogger yet you’re pushing the far right wing neoconservative lie that extending health care to our citizens means socialism?
This is the real problem with our country. We are all held back by the lowest common denominator. People who think that its ok for the government to provide police to arrest citizens but doctors to heal them. People who think its ok for the government to send our kids to school but not for the government to provide a doctor if that kid breaks an arm.
Our government already taxes us and provides us with a myriad of services that no one is crying should be taken away. It also taxes us and burdens us with corrupt police, invasions of foreign lands in illegal wars, etc.
But because there are people out there shilling for the neoconservative looney bin by labeling health care “socialism” the rest of us have to suffer because the actions of these small but vocal few.
Health care is unaffordable. Period. I have a best friend who’s daughter got bone cancer at 3 years old. He makes over 100k, and had what supposedly was the best insurance his company provided. Yet they dropped him as soon as his daughters disease started racking up bills. They dropped him and he went into hock paying for her bills to keep her alive. Then he ran out of money and they ended up having to amputate her leg.
Now she’s a “Wednesdays” child, and this family is begging for help to care for their little girl. Their little, one legged girl.
I have zero tolerance for the people in this country who fight against the logical providing of health care in exchange for our tax dollars. What are we paying taxes to a government for that won’t help its own sick and injured?
Health care for all in exchange for taxes doesn’t mean a dole and it doesn’t mean we’re suddenly socialists. It is a LOGICAL return on our investment. And since the preamble to the Constitution calls for the general welfare of the people, I can think of no more basic necessity for welfare than being able to see a doctor when you’re sick or injured.
Byron, I don’t know how many employees you have but how will it effect your business?
30%er:
“But the conservative movement used racism (don’t want all those poor black folks getting free health care on my dime) to rally the crowd to fight against it calling it socialized medicine.”
Actually there are more white people on welfare. So I am against lazy crackers.
The reason I am against government run health care is that it will limit my freedom and the more important concept of my owning the right to my work, no one has a legitimate claim to the sweat on my brow. A claim to my labour is a claim on my life. I believe it is called slavery.
Does paying an able bodied/minded person to do nothing encourage personal growth?
Welfare Reform Act.
The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996
Good job Bill, no pun intended.
TomD.Arch:
I know socialism sounds good but does it really provide a high standard of living to the most people or does it restrict our standard of living?
The freest industries seem to have the largest gains, electronics for instance far out paces the automobile or airplane industry in terms of technological innovation.
Does paying an able bodied/minded person to do nothing encourage personal growth?
Personally I think we are about at the level of taxes that most average income earners can sustain and part of our economic problem is government spending. Every dollar government spends is a dollar not used by the private sector. And government spending is not necessarily as efficient as the private sector for most things.
Most people do not care if Joe Smith in Toledo, Ohio needs a new pair of shoes. They care about their family and immediate friends.
In the middle of the 19th century (from 1820-1880 say) there were numerous socialist experiments in this country, the Owenites, the Fourier’s and others. Everyone of them failed except the ones that brought in some sort of capitalism.
Denmark you say? 63% income tax, 8% payroll tax and a 25% sales tax. Sweden? 45% income, 32.42% payroll and 18% sales tax. In any event socialism appears to cost quite a bit to the wage earner and discourages investment due to reduced discretionary spending.
no howling, just some thoughts.
“Is it just me, or does this situation seem to explain why a Canadian-style “single payer” system makes the most sense. Everyone pays income tax (or potentially payroll/self-employment tax), part of that tax is used to pay for a baseline of medical care for all Americans… period. Everyone gets Medicare, and if you want supplemental, go to the private market.” -Tom
Exactly. I don’t see what’s so hard or elusive about this. But the conservative movement used racism (don’t want all those poor black folks getting free health care on my dime) to rally the crowd to fight against it calling it socialized medicine.
Now the bill we have is worse than no bill at all.
The republicans are determined to make everyone as miserable as them.
exactly. Let the screams and howls begin in 3-2-1…
Is it just me, or does this situation seem to explain why a Canadian-style “single payer” system makes the most sense. Everyone pays income tax (or potentially payroll/self-employment tax), part of that tax is used to pay for a baseline of medical care for all Americans… period. Everyone gets Medicare, and if you want supplemental, go to the private market.
You don’t get special taxes on high-end insurance plans, you don’t get certain states’ Medicare subsidized, you don’t get special groups being exempted from the program. Everyone pays in, everyone gets the baseline of outcome-driven medical care. (And, yes, sometimes that means that unless Grandma already had a platinum premium supplemental plan, then she may not get $10,000,000 of “extreme” care in her final year of life.)
The current bill being worked out will be an improvement over the status quo, but it sure isn’t optimal.
(It took from 1915 to 1965 to get Medicare, so it will take quite a while to get real improvements to the national health care system in the US. Let’s not forget that even at the height of the Cold War against the USSR, the US was smart enough and brave enough to ignore dolts like Ronald Reagan and take a good (but tiny) slice of real, actual Socialism into our system. Medicare has saved countless lives and avoided untold unnecessary suffering. It isn’t perfect, but it puts the lie to the hysterics we hear every day about health care reform.)