There is an interesting controversy brewing over the current version of the health care bill in which Amish families are exempted from the mandatory coverage. Other groups may also receive exemptions.
For some Americans who do not want to pay for health insurance (but face a fine under the law), the exemptions are likely to trigger challenges. Why should an Amish person be allowed exemption, but not someone with political or philosophical opposition to the insurance?
The Amish do use medical facilities and regular doctors, but they pay in cash. They believe that such care is the primary responsibility of their church.
The question is why religious conscientious objectors are given exemptions but not secular conscientious objectors. There are plenty of people who have profound objections to this plan that are not religious based. Is it far to allow only faith-based objectors to get exemptions so that some Christians can apply but not Cato members?
Congress can probably prevail in such distinctions (much like conscientious objectors to the draft), but it raises in my view a legitimate question of fairness.
For the story, click here.
30%er:
here is a very good link to an article:
here are some of the salient points:
Some Lessons
For Members of Congress and state legislators, there are some valuable lessons from the European experience that should be less surprising.
If you insist on government management of the health care system, do not expect freedom from waste, inefficiency, or inequity in the delivery of care (look at France).
If you want to promise citizens a national or state program of universal insurance coverage, don’t expect that you will be able to deliver universal access to high-quality health care. You won’t and you can’t (look at Britain).
If you want to fix prices for medical services, prescription drugs, or other medical devices, don’t expect demand for these goods and services to be met or investment in research and development to continue apace. It won’t (look anywhere).
If you insist, with a straight face, that in a government-run health care system, all of your fellow citizens will be treated equally–regardless of their class, station in life, or disease condition–you are not merely enthusiastic or well intentioned. You are lying.
30%ER:
I posted a story above about your beloved European system, what do you say about that?
Hmm lets see, 30 years in Europe and you got back recently . . . are you Roman Polanski?
Well say stupid things and you get whacked sometimes.
Sorry it upsets you. I’ll try to go easier on you in the future.
Byron 30%er is not a debater of fact. He is a debater of whack.
I never thought I would say this, but I can’t wait for Buddah to come back.
30%er:
how do answer that post then?
Bdaman:
can you help me find stories on the British & European health care systems?
Here is one, you cant even pay for better care if you want to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html
I suppose the NY Times is believable.
“But then if you cant argue the message discredit the messenger, typical totalitarian play book.” -Byron
I would no sooner argue with a patient in the sanitarium smearing fecal matter on themselves than argue with a loon who thinks the health care system in Europe is worse than ours.
Its like arguing with a infant.
Its not possible.
“I am a liar because I have a differing opinion?” Byron
No you’re a liar because you’re selling right wing neoconservative lies about socialism, “lazy” welfare recipients and the health care system abroad.
That’s why you’re a liar.
But hey, just stop lying and you won’t be a liar anymore.
Bdaman:
He cant help it, Wayne has a couple of incarnations, one of which is a Catholic scholar. He must be a friar or monk or a priest to have all that biblical knowledge.
But he doesn’t know that Jesus is a right wing capitalist. You wont tell him will you?
“30%ER:
I will get the guys name and you can talk to him, he lives in England and he tells me the system is deplorable” – Byron
Lol, well you do that Byron.
Only keep in mind I could go to the best paradise luxury hotel on the planet and still find a handful of people who call it “deplorable”.
Your impossible to verify story about “some guy” you “know” in England hardly equates to my 27 years abroad using the health care systems of England and several other European countries.
Not to mention the fact that everyone of my friends and acquaintances would laugh you and your disgruntled “friend” off the planet.
Nothings perfect in life pal but what they have over there blows away anything we have here unless you’re a millionaire.
I am no Constitutional lawyer (just like most of Congress), but “I” would think that a Congressional Act that forces every American citizen to “purchase” something (health insurance) or face eventual imprisonment….or a legislation that favors (rewards) certain “religions” over others (religious discrimination), and favors labor-union members over non-union workers WOULD have some Constitutionality problems.
What’s next? Forcing all Christian Scientists to seek medical care—instead of practicing their religion?
Kinda like that rape victim. She obviously wanted it, look what she was wearing. She slept with X number of men in her life she’s no good. She deserved it.
Totalitarian’s arent the only ones. In law school, they teach the students that if the law is on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts; but if neither the law nor the facts are on your side, then you have no choice but to try to discredit the witness and making the witness out to be a lier is discrediting the witness.
30%ER:
I will get the guys name and you can talk to him, he lives in England and he tells me the system is deplorable. He had to pay 20k out of pocket because he could not get a procedure because of rationing. He had to go to a private hospital. So the guy pays and then he pays again? That doesn’t sound fair to me.
I am a liar because I have a differing opinion? I don’t have any compassion because I think more people would be helped by free markets vs. government control.
I have to adhere to your line of thinking to be superior? But I am a troll? You sound like a power hungry totalitarian trying to impose their will on people through intimidation and not rational discourse.
But then if you cant argue the message discredit the messenger, typical totalitarian play book.
See troll, there’s a difference between polite discourse or even debate, and lying to sell neoconservative ideals. When the right wing sends in trolls into left wing and liberal blogs to try to sell outright lies then I as most people have little tolerance for them or their nonsense.
We had a pretty good discussion the other day on Pat Robertson and religion, Christianity etc. It was in a thread about those topics and everyone seemed intent (except for one or two grilling me) on openly discussing a topic that is important to both believer and non believer alike. And at that point I thought you were an average and interesting blogger. I thought the same about your sidekick “duh” and Byron.
But your subsequent attempts to derail our conversation there and replace it with right wing stump points along with the right wing lies I see you guys spreading here today have all but removed any remaining doubts I had about you.
Clearly you are all three right wing trolls and your agenda is not concealed in the slightest.
Nevertheless as long as your comments are reasonably civil and as long as you don’t go all stupid on me like I see you do sometimes when you start to babble gibberish, I’ll usually answer you in a manner consistent with your question or comment.
That’s because I know that behind every right wing troll there’s a human being, waiting to get out.
Byron,
The best thing to do when 30%er (or anyone for that matter) starts with the personal attacks, is to stop responding to them. By all means, immediately call them on it, but then just leave them alone. I’m sure Prof. Turley scans some of the comments, and he’ll be able to see the cause for the breakdown in civility on his blog.
“The above are comments made by 30%er pointing out that Byron is a lier. Way to go 30%er keep the attacks up.” Troll
Correctly identifying a lie or the liar spreading it is not an attack.
Lying and spamming as you do however I suppose could constitute one though. Although personally I see it as more of a minor nuisance than anything.
Yea Byron You’re pretending to be a reasonable blogger yet you’re pushing the far right wing neoconservative lie that extending health care to our citizens means socialism?
When the rest of us can get past people like you and your lies but Until then we’re all stuck in neutral dealing with the nonsense and lies people like you are selling.
This is another lie being pushed by the neoconservative right wing.
_______________________________________________________________
The above are comments made by 30%er pointing out that Byron is a lier. Way to go 30%er keep the attacks up.
“I also know people in England who say their system sucks sheeps ass.”
And for every one of them, there are a hundread americans who can’t get access to the health care they need. That argument sucks sheeps ass.
“I also know people in England who say their system sucks sheeps ass.” Byron
I was hoping you’d go there. Now I know you’re a neocon troll too.
See slick, I lived overseas in Europe for a very long time. And I know first hand what their health care system is like and I can tell you without a doubt, you’re full of sh$t.
That’s a right wing lie spread by every right wing troll and huckster on the internet.
Only today you tried to sell it to the wrong person.