ABC has a truly bizarre and disturbing story. Brian Ross reports that a military contractor has encoded hidden New Testament Bible passages on high-powered rifle sites. The contractor is Trijicon, which apparently confirmed the practice.
The biblical references appear as, in one case, 2COR4:6 — an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
The company received $660 million under a contract to supply 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps. It has other contracts with the Army.
U.S. regulations prohibits proselytizing of any religion. Moreover, such additions to military equipment should violate the contract which presumably did not ask for biblical citations with gun sights.
The use of biblical citations will only reaffirm the view of many that the U.S. went into Iraq and Afghanistan on a “crusade.” This view was magnified by Bush calling its a crusade and later citing Biblical passages to convince other leaders that this was a worthy, if not divinely ordained, effort. His subordinates appeared to keep Bush in a Biblical mindset by adding prominent quotations from the Bible in reports on the war, here.
In my view, this raises serious legal questions that should result in a review of this contract. As a minimum, the contractor should have to pay for the removal of the citations. We have to able to trust contractors not to carry out their hidden or religious agenda as part of a contract with the American people. Just imagine if these were citation to the Koran. If the company wishes to proselytize it should do so with theocratic governments. Perhaps the Swiss Guards that the Vatican need a few sights and citations.
For the full story, click here.
“as we saw with me being called a neocon several times.”
“I’m not the passionate theist some paint me as. It might seem that way because I know the scriptures better than the average bear but that’s it.”
“I’m sure you’re well aware of the double-slit experiments with electrons and photons and the transient nature of matter that we are now aware of.”
30%er,
What caused me to enter this debate at first, because I was late to that part of the party, was the fact that if people had completely read your posts it would have been obvious to them that you were no neocon. Yet in truth you were treated like one.
I also know a lot of history and have had a long interest in Christianity from the perspective of its organization and propagation.
Also from a young age I felt it was my duty as a person to explore other beliefs besides the one I was raised in.
It was with those same experiments in mind that I wrote what I did. We probably do have a lot in common. I’m sorry that your intent was misapprehended from the beginning, because I think we here at JT’s place represent a more civil and intelligent lot. Part of the distrust is that of late we have found ourselves under siege by a variety of trolls, some of the highly religious/fundamentalist persuasion. Since Professor Turley is an ardent free speech advocate, as are most of the regulars here, this invasion has caused some turmoil and difficulty since we abhor censorship. Sometimes the innocent get caught in the crossfire.
“If you have a belief one way or the other and you and everyone else around you is better for it, does it really matter what someone thinks of your belief?” Anonymously Yours
I see we’re back to missing the point.
I’ve made it abundantly clear that it does not matter what you think of “MY” beliefs. The point isn’t what “I” think about someone ridiculing MY beliefs.
It is about the damage we are doing to our ability to win elections. We’re driving off Christians in droves, whether you realize it or not.
Christianity has practically become synonymous with the Neoconservatism in the liberal blogosphere and that’s what you need to be concerned about. The tide shift back to the republicans has several factors driving it but this is one of them. And a larger one most people are aware of, because not enough people are addressing it.
Separate support groups addressing it isn’t going to help. They just tend to isolate even further. We need religious tolerance to become a core liberal value again.
If you have a belief one way or the other and you and everyone else around you is better for it, does it really matter what someone thinks of your belief?
“Physicists these days talk of 11 possible dimensions, multiple universes and the possibilty of time travel. In my lifetime “black holes” have gone from Sci Fi speculation to knoweable reality. To me this has reached the point where the possibility of a creative force behind all of this is not merely superstitious speculation, but may in fact have some basis in reality.” – Mike
I cannot tell you how close we are here on this point. I’ve written a lot about this elsewhere. I’m sure you’re well aware of the double-slit experiments with electrons and photons and the transient nature of matter that we are now aware of. Biocentrism has explored this phenomena to a point and other scientists, researchers etc have written or speculated on the recent revelations with regards to matter and the possible relationship of it to the human consciousness.
It’s starting to become more likely that if a tree does fall in the woods and no one hears it, that it does not make a sound.
“I am by no means what you would call a religious man in the sense of being wedded to ritual and prayer. However, as I’ve aged and learned more about the universe we populate I find that the hubris of human beings is such that they are constantly proclaiming the achievement of true knowledge, only to have a new set of facts and packets of knowledge change their beliefs. This is true of many religious as well as anti-religious people.” – Mike
You might be surprised we have more in common that way then you think. I don’t belong to any church or particular sect. I have no religious creed or doctrine and pretty much I just try to correct some of the misinformation floating around out there if I can.
I’m not the passionate theist some paint me as. It might seem that way because I know the scriptures better than the average bear but that’s it.
“30%er,
Your point is well taken, I just don’t think it occurs to the extent that you perceive it does. ” Mike
I can see your point I guess we just disagree there a little. I tend to see it more, probably because it’s my beliefs after all and not yours that are being primarily targeted. Its kind of like not noticing a given model of car on the road until you purchase it. Then suddenly you find yourself noticing them everywhere. Because now it pertains to you. Know what I mean?
The original stuff I saw was always careful to separate most Christians from the neoconservatives however that’s changed. Now I find that most liberals and progressives seem to associate anyone professing Christianity with the neoconservatives, as we saw with me being called a neocon several times. Downplaying it isn’t going to help nor of course would overblowing it. But I’m not overblowing it I don’t think.
The TV shows I referenced are clear examples of how mainstream it is to associate all Christianity with the far right wing evangelicals. And I think that’s do in part to the fact that they are the only voices we see on TV in the MSM. Robertson, Falwell (gone now), Haggard. They had the ear of the President and the ear of the MSM. So I think that has a lot to do with it. Also I think some ignorance of the 4 Gospels and the Gospel teachings that they contain lead to classifying us all under the same umbrella as many of the comments made by your friend Mespo demonstrated. Which is why I’m careful to be precise in correcting that sort of misinformation when I see it. This blog in fact is one of the most mild examples of it I’ve seen. Anyway I get your point, but I humbly must disagree. I think its more rampant than you’re aware
“And I watch as religion is lambasted to the point of suggesting that we are utter fools and lunatics who believe in some fairy in the sky.”
30%er,
Your point is well taken, I just don’t think it occurs to the extent that you perceive it does. When I hear anyone on the Left engaging in categorical denunciations of religious belief, rather than training their sights on the charlatans and Hyper-Fundamentalists that have become the backbone of the faux conservative movement, it saddens me.
However, there are true Christians like the Reverend Weldon Gaddy and the Interfaith Alliance that have gained voice and credibility in left wing circles. Mespo, a man I like and respect has accused me me of “cozying up” to you and I imagine that it is due to his surprise at my coming to your defense to some degree. I am by no means what you would call a religious man in the sense of being wedded to ritual and prayer. However, as I’ve aged and learned more about the universe we populate I find that the hubris of human beings is such that they are constantly proclaiming the achievement of true knowledge, only to have a new set of facts and packets of knowledge change their beliefs. This is true of many religious as well as anti-religious people.
Physicists these days talk of 11 possible dimensions, multiple universes and the possibilty of time travel. In my lifetime “black holes” have gone from Sci Fi speculation to knoweable reality. To me this has reached the point where the possibility of a creative force behind all of this is not merely superstitious speculation, but may in fact have some basis in reality. Do I personally believe that is likely, sadly no, because life has made me too cynical about the “fairness” of existence for those who work to do good. However, neither I, nor any other human can be absolutely certain at this point whether many theological constructs are groundless. Therefore, I can’t discount religious belief, while I do decry its excesses.
As for the personal cynicism part of my own equation I choose to attempt to live life as if there is hope for us all. I believe that is the best strategy for staying alive and the best strategy for living, this is more true as my time runs out. I personally don’t believe in life after death, I’m willing to be pleasantly surprised, but I want to make the best use of the time I have left.
My only goal as you’ve pointed out correctly now on several occasions (and I am indebted to you for doing so) is simply to correct inaccuracies being sold in liberal and progressive blogs about the gospels, what they contain and what Jesus taught in them. And in doing so hopefully illuminate the dire need for tolerance not just for gays, lesbians, other races, but other beliefs.
That our country holds dear the notion of tolerance is evident in its laws. There are actually laws against discrimination against any individual based on “Race”, “Creed” “Sexual Orientation” or “Religion”.
But that last one seems to no longer be an important one to liberals and progressives, being that it has from my experience been all but abandoned in liberal and progressive blogs across the internet. In whatever liberal blog one attempts to correct inaccuracies being pushed to condemn Christianity the attacks usually come swift and sure. Its impossible thus for the average Christian to find a home in the Democratic party, the progressive party and any of the venues in which their constituents are gathered. And this is I believe going to prove a crucial downfall for the democrats over the coming months and years as more and more Christians do not vote for democrats simply because they are afraid of the persecution and mass ridicule that seems to now be the norm.
I watch Jon Stewart. I watch Stephen Colbert. I watch Bill Maher. And I watch as religion is lambasted to the point of suggesting that we are utter fools and lunatics who believe in some fairy in the sky. All to the roars and applause from the audience (demonstrating the mass appeal of religious prejudice within the democratic party). This is not healthy. This is not productive.
Its hard to sit alongside someone, vote alongside them and carry their parties water when they identify you repeatedly as a silly buffoon who believes in fairy tales.
It is difficult, if not impossible at that point to find common ground.
“The two religions are not compatible in belief systems. for instance Jew’s do not believe in “original sin,” nor really in an afterlife. Incidentally, I’m not commenting on which religion holds the truth, my comment is simply from a theological perspective. Schneider may indeed be a brilliant man and no doubt receive “Smicha” to become a Rabbi, but his messianic beliefs open his understanding into question. now there are many” -Mike Spindell
I get it Mike but you’re confusing my looking to Rabbi Schneider for understanding the Jewish nature of Jesus and his followers with understanding Christianity itself.
I do not listen to Rabbi Schneider for a philosophical perspective. He saves most of that for the end anyway. I watch him for an understanding of the Jewish nature of the man Jesus, who was himself a Jew. Hearing one Rabbi, former or not (did he forget Hebrew when he converted to Christianity?) provides me with keen insight into the Jewish culture and mannerisms behind many of the the mundane details that otherwise would go unnoticed by an armchair student such as myself.
“30% er,
Never thought that was your intention. However, in becoming a messianic Jew Schneider gave up his credibility as a Rabbi. Seen from a Jewish perspective Christianity, in all its’ myriad forms is a separate religion. Even if one has gone through all the learning necessary to become a Rabbi, to conflate Judaism with Christianity reflects a misunderstanding of what he was taught”
Well once more you’re making a philosophical argument over conflating Christianity with Judaism, something I am not discussing.
The fact is whether you approve of Rabbi Schneider (I call him that since that’s what he calls himself) is moot to my point or the insight he can offer for Christians. The fact is my Hebrew vocabulary consists of less than 100 words, not to mention I speak no Aramaic and have no background in early Judaism. Thus being a trained Rabbi one cannot dismiss his invaluable insight into the “Jewish Jesus”, which of course Jesus was. He was Jew, not a Roman. And he was a Rabbi. Thus hearing a Rabbi’s perspective on the day to day mundane events that otherwise would go unnoticed to the untrained eye is a keen insight into the nature of the man Jesus.
“Secondly, the Talmud and Mishnah were the codifications of a centuries old oral tradition regarding the meaning of the Torah that came about with the destruction of the Temple and the need to continue Judaism without that unifying symbol. Thirdly, much of the Torah is allegorical and was understood to be such. For instance the famous seemingly bloodthirsty “eye for an eye” passage doesn’t mean at all what later authorities, Christians primarily, ascribed to it.” Mike Spindell
Agreed Mike and I think I made it clear that I understood the nature of the old Hebrew Oral Tradition when I referenced it on several occasions over the span of several different comments to Mespo when discussing the nature of the handing down of the gospels via a practice similar to the Oral Tradition until they were ultimately written down around 70 AD.
Also you probably missed some of my comments since you’re not getting email updates for some reason but I spoke quite a bit on the allegorical nature of the verses. In fact on several occasions I commented on the fact that Jesus referred to “The Death” in Mark 7:10 when quoting Moses and explained how it was an allegorical context and not literal death.
I understand you’re not getting your email so you probably missed these entries of mine but the allegorical nature of the Torah and the teachings of the Rabbis were the a pivotal point of my comments about the teachings of Jesus, and still are.
“I need to be painfully clear here that my goal was nor is nor ever will be to convince anyone of the divinity of Jesus, his teachings or to offer any proof, etc in an attempt to proselyte or convert.”
30% er,
Never thought that was your intention. However, in becoming a messianic Jew Schneider gave up his credibility as a Rabbi. Seen from a Jewish perspective Christianity, in all its’ myriad forms is a separate religion. Even if one has gone through all the learning necessary to become a Rabbi, to conflate Judaism with Christianity reflects a misunderstanding of what he was taught. The two religions are not compatible in belief systems. for instance Jew’s do not believe in “original sin,” nor really in an afterlife. Incidentally, I’m not commenting on which religion holds the truth, my comment is simply from a theological perspective. Schneider may indeed be a brilliant man and no doubt receive “Smicha” to become a Rabbi, but his messianic beliefs open his understanding into question. now there are many Christian biblical scholars who no doubt could also enlighten on Jesus role as a Jew, but since they identify themselves as same, there is no doubt as to the clarity of their position. Schneider may be a Minister, but he has lost the right to sell himself as a Rabbi except in the service of deceit.
This is said with the understanding of my own pre-judgment as stated in my previous comment. Also I wouldn’t call myself a Deist if I thought that any particular relgion held the truth about the Creator.
However, as a proud Jew, aware of the centuries of suffering imposed by certain religious beliefs, I do acknowledge that people of this mans ilk anger me. By the way I have watched his program and found him to be quite deceitful in his purposes, from my Jewish perspective.
“In General,
In bandying around “The Law of Moses” from both perspectives you are missing the reality of the situation. Firstly, the English translations of the Torah, of which you are familiar are just that and self serving to boot.”
That’s not quite correct with regards to my missing the reality of the situation.
My discussions were on the Gospels whereas the Torah as I am sure you are aware is not found in the New Testament but in the Old Testament, specifically Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. My only references to the Torah were to point out the futility in referencing passages from it to define Christianity.
As for the English Translations I understand, and I have read the Masoretic Text a few times over the years however I’m no expert. But it did give me some insight into the “self serving” nature of the OT.
“30%er,
False advertising: Kirt Schneider is no longer a Rabbi (in the Jewish sense)and while he may have been born Jewish, he is religiously a Christian. Messianic Jew is an oxymoron. One is either Jewish or Christian religiously. A Jew can not believe in Jesus’ divinity and remain a Jew,” – Mike Spindell
Mike, thanks for your comment. Its important here to understand the distinction I made to Mespo. You’re approaching this from a perspective of “faith”. I made no mention of Rabbi Schneider’s beliefs or did I invoke him as an attempt to shore up the notion of Christi’s divinity. These are not issues I would openly discuss in an online forum. Particularly one where a persons beliefs would be mocked or dragged through the mud. I find its sufficient to identify myself as a believer in the teachings of Christ as the appear in the 4 gospels. Aside from that I do not delve into my own or anyone’s personal beliefs because to do so is if once more you’ll pardon the expression, “casting your pearls before the swine” as the scripture reads. It would be for me like discussing ones daughter in a room full of rapists. It would be unseemly.
I brought up Rabbi Schneider’s show because regardless of how you feel about his beliefs or what he teaches, his experience as a Rabbi and his training in the Talmud, Torah, etc give him a keen insight into much of the history behind Jesus, his mannerisms and many of his teachings by correlating them to the language (for Jesus Aramaic) and the mannerisms and mores held by the Jewish people of the day.
I need to be painfully clear here that my goal was nor is nor ever will be to convince anyone of the divinity of Jesus, his teachings or to offer any proof, etc in an attempt to proselyte or convert. My goal was simply to correct common inaccuracies being promulgated in liberal and progressive blogs that distort his teachings and the gospels.
Clean your cache
“There’s precious little of that Mike S, and what there is is impeded by dolts like 30%’er who apparently neither read nor comprehend. You may want to cozy up to this guy”
“In my mind, religious dogmatists, arguing about whether Jesus quoted Moses approvingly or not, serves neither freedom nor any other useful purpose.’
Mespo,
Once again you miss the point and phrase it in an insulting fashion. I wasn’t aware that I was “cozying up” to 30%er. I thought I was sharing my views of the debate and the tenor of the discussion. Also your disdain for things religious is showing: “Dolts” and no other useful purpose. Finally, you are wrong about the widespread craziness of Fundamental Christianity and a little googling might show you that there is a humanistic Christian Movement afoot and it is gaining momentum. Remember, being a Deist I’m a lot closer to your viewpoint than I am to
30%ers, but I am not so full of myself and life has taught me that sometimes some of my most deeply held beliefs can be wrong.
“Its called “Discovering the Jewish Jesus”. Its hosted by Rabbi Kirt Schneider and its a great way to be easily peer into the Jewish Jesus and how his upbringing and subsequent Rabbinical role impacted his teachings.”
30%er,
False advertising: Kirt Schneider is no longer a Rabbi (in the Jewish sense)and while he may have been born Jewish, he is religiously a Christian. Messianic Jew is an oxymoron. One is either Jewish or Christian religiously. A Jew can not believe in Jesus’ divinity and remain a Jew, nor can a Rabbi remain a Rabbi in the Jewish sense. Mr. Schneider’s teachings, no matter how erudite a man he may be, come from a perspective that skews the output. While I’m a tolerant man I must admit that I loathe “messianic Jews,” because of their predilection for convincing
uneducated Jews into believing something that is not so. Many of us Jews are not religious, but very proud of our heritage, this group converts them to Christianity, by making them think that they can remain Jewish religiously. Also despite his claim Paul was no Pharisee. He was a Roman citizen by his own admission and no Pharisee would be a Roman Citizen.
In General,
In bandying around “The Law of Moses” from both perspectives you are missing the reality of the situation. Firstly, the English translations of the Torah, of which you are familiar are just that and self serving to boot. Secondly, the Talmud and Mishnah were the codifications of a centuries old oral tradition regarding the meaning of the Torah that came about with the destruction of the Temple and the need to continue Judaism without that unifying symbol. Thirdly, much of the Torah is allegorical and was understood to be such. For instance the famous seemingly bloodthirsty “eye for an eye” passage doesn’t mean at all what later authorities, Christians primarily, ascribed to it.
Aside from the Davidic royal line and perhaps the Maccabean period, Israel was under the thumb of outside entities. The Priesthood (later Sadducees)had a vested interest in interpreting the Torah literally since it gave them legitimacy and power. A tradition began of learned men who found the strict interpretation to be inhumane and they devolved into the Pharisees. Arguments raged. The Priesthood (Sadduces)generally sided with the occupying power, or liege state as long as they let them exist with control over religious ritual, which meant power and money. Those that became Pharisees believed in resistance to whatever power was trying to control Israel and this led to many revolts.
Jesus was undoubtedly a Pharisee Rabbi, since much of his teaching mirrored previous Pharisee belief and as such would have been anti-Roman. All that had to change if Christianity was to be the official religion of Rome. Change it did to the point today where even well educated and knowledgeable people accept the Pharisees as what today we’d call strict constructionists.
Whatever else 30%er has accomplished he has exposed the tendency of many here to complete denigrate religious belief. They certainly have the right to do so and I have joined in on many,
many occasions. However, instantly resorting to characterization because someone states something in religious terms has run rampant and reflects a contempt perhaps born out of one’s own bad religious experience. We all have them but as I age I’ve learned to put away the resentments of my youth and take a broader perspective. In training as a Therapist one of the maxims I learned was “that which someone hates the most, is usually something in themselves they find hard to deal with.” I’ve found that to be true in my own therapy and in doing therapy with others. I’m not accusing here and so many here I have regard for are fiercely anti-religious. I’m just saying that we’ve all been guilty here of rushes to judgment,Moi especially. Perhaps a bit of self examination as to what went on in this thread is in order.
P.S. If anyone could tell me why WordPress is not sending me followup comments I would deeply appreciate it.
Mike, I hear at one time you were in the mental health industry.
Just a reminder
1. When you are angry say nothing.
If we speak in anger we will definitely aggravate the situation and quite likely hurt the feelings of others. If we speak in anger we will find that people respond in kind, creating a spiral of negative anger. If we can remain outwardly silent it gives time for the emotion of anger to leave us.
“When angry count to ten before you speak. If very angry, count to one hundred. “
– Thomas Jefferson
2. Be indifferent to those who seek to make us angry.
Some people may unfortunately take a malicious pleasure in trying to make you mad. However, if we can feel indifferent to them and their words; if we feel it is beyond our dignity to even acknowledge them, then their words and actions will have no effect. Also, if we do not respond in any way to their provocation, they will lose interest and not bother us in the future.
3. Use reason to stop anger.
When we feel anger coming to the fore try to take a step back and say to yourself “This anger will not help me in any way. This anger will make the situation worse.” Even if part of us remains angry our inner voice is helping us to distance our self from the emotion of anger.
4. Look kindly upon Others.
Another visualisation, suggested by spiritual teacher Paramhansa Yogananda, is to see the anger-rousing agent as a 5 year old child. If you think of the other person as a helpless 5 year old child your compassion and forgiveness will come to the fore. If your baby brother accidentally stabbed you, you would not feel anger and desire to retaliate. Instead, you would just feel he is just too young to know any better. This exercise may be particularly useful for close members of the family who at times evoke your anger.
5. Value Peace more than anger.
If we value peace of mind as our most important treasure we will not allow anger to remain in our system. As Sri Chinmoy says:
“You may have every right to be angry with someone, but you know that by getting angry with him you will only lose your precious peace of mind..”
6. Always try to understand those who are cross.
Don’t worry about feeling the need to defend yourself from their criticisms. If you can remain detached and calm they may begin to feel guilty about venting their anger on you. Inspired by your example of calmness, they will seek subconsciously to do the same.
7. Focus on Something Completely Different.
Suppose someone has done something to make you angry. Think about something which will make you happy. The best antidote to negativity is to focus on the positive.
8. Breathe Deeply.
The simple act of breathing deeply will help considerably with removing anger.
9. Meditation.
Practise meditation regularly to bring your inner peace to the fore. If we can have an inner access to our inner peace we will be able to draw upon this during testing times. – How to Meditate
10. Smile
When we smile we defuse many negative situations. To smile is offer goodwill to others. Smiling costs nothing but can effectively defuse tense situations.
Stop the personal attacks, Spindell. bdaman paid you a compliment. Please; if you can’t engage in an exchange of ideas without relying on personal attacks, stop posting, or go somewhere else.
“I’ve seen it time and again here, prior to you posting here 30%er, Mike S was the religious scholar IMO.”
Your bigotry is again rearing its ugly head. What people asked me about was Judaism and since I was one of the few Jews regularly posting I gave answers as best I could, frequently pointing out that I was hardly an expert. No one who was sane would have considered me the “resident religious scholar” except perhaps a deluded troll who thinks Jews killed Jesus.
Just a couple of points here
Agreed. I just felt originally your questions seemed to be attacking as there were so many, and the sarcastic tone made me feel as if you wanted to attack me more than my position.
*********************************************************
I’ve seen it time and again here, prior to you posting here 30%er, Mike S was the religious scholar IMO. Any time a religious thread was posted it was attacked. I felt the same way you did, not that your position was being attacked in the beginning, but the word of Jesus itself.
*****************************************************************
Mespo, my screen is hanging up, it happens in IE when i get in a thread that has too many comments so I’ll do it this way.
your comments at 11:19 and that of the midnight hour, if you have never spoken the truth before, you have spoken it then.
I thank the both of you, IMO, for a truly great thread. My only wish was that Mike S. would have been more involved here to offer some more historical context.
Again many many thanks