New Zealand’s new Animal Welfare (Commercial Slaughter) Code has banned kosher slaughtering by requiring that all animals slaughtered commercially be stunned prior to killing. The law still allows kosher meat to be imported from other countries.
Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence of Sydney’s the Great Synagogue has denounced the law as based on “misplaced values, bad science and bad legislation.”
Our own Humane Slaughter Act (7 U.S.C. 1901),exempts ritual slaughter. See Jones v. Butz, 374 F. Supp. 1284 (S.D.N.Y. 1974); aff’d, 95 S.Ct. 22 319 US 806, 42 L.Ed.2d 806 (1974).
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Kiwis are a bunch of poofters. Noone there says it is illegal to eat animals shot and killed in that fashion. Trout are OK if tghey are allowed to suffocate to death. Please.
Bob: The “law of the land” in the U.S. does not provide for the deprivation of a minority religious group in favor of a perceived, but scientifically disputed, claim of harm to animals. Jonathan’s original post cited specific state laws which acknowledge that kosher slaughter is permitted. I would note that in the U.S., kosher slaughter-houses have adapted, when possible, to American practices. For example, the chain and hoist method, still used in European slaughterhouses of all types, is not used in kosher slaugherhouses. That method of making sure the animal carcass isn’t contaminated by touching the ground has been replaced with an ASPCA-approved cradeling device that gently lifts the animal off the ground so it can be slaughtered. Rabbis prefer the ASPCA device because the chain and hoist method can result in broken legs, which would render an animal unkosher.
The law of the land is that animals should be slaughtered humanely.
Can anyone give just one logical reason why certain people should be exempt from the laws?
A country is judged by its treatment of animals and New Zealand has made a decent decision to outlaw the cruel practice of kosher killing.
Byron: You asked:
“Bruce:
“I have seen animals slaughtered both ways, personally the only difference I saw was a bolt to the head. I don’t think cutting the throat is any more or less painful. From a purely scientific standpoint once the carotid and jugular are severed there is an immediate reduction in blood pressure and I would imagine the animals pass out relatively quickly. I would imagine a blow to the head hard enough for an animal to pass out is no less traumatic than cutting the throat.
“If you knocked them out prior to slaughter would that invalidate the Kosher designation?”
Good question. Kosher slaughter, shechita, is where a flawlessly-sharp knife is passed over the esophogus, trachea and the cartoid artery of a kosher bird or mammel. The cartoid artery supplies blood to the brain; the sudden absence of blood to the brain suppresses awareness of the animal. This was confirmed in a study by a study by Cornell School of Veterinary Medicine which found that the sudden drop in blood pressure renders the animal unconscious within seconds of the incision. In 1978, a German study by Wilhelm Schulze attached the animals to be studied to EEG sensors. The study found that when carried out correctly shechita resulted in less pain than captive bolt stunning, which in some animals was very painful. Captive bolt stunning violates Jewish law because it causes a life-threatening injury in the animal, rendering it unfit for slaughter and within the category of neveilah. See Babyl. Talmud, Chullin 67a; Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah 1–65. Similarly, other forms of anesthesia can result in deadly reactions, making the meat unfit to be kosher, and also contaminate the meat for consumption under U.S. laws. It is true that the schected animal may live for a very short time after the slice has been made, but the movements seen by witnesses are involuntary nervous actions similar to what is described when a chicken has its head cut off.
Note: While I have studied Tractate Chullin, and I am familiar with many specifics discussed above, I am not a rabbi (many Jews study the Talmud without being rabbis) or a shochet (ritual slaughterer).
Lottakatz: Whether Mespo is generally pro-Israel and pro-religious freedom, normally, may be true. Howevever, the quotes given to me indicate that Mespo opposes kosher slaughter despite the fact that bans on the practice create hardships on observant Jews and affects their ability to observe their religion freely. In New Zealand, for example, the government says that they are not infringing on religion because Jews can still import kosher meat. And how much will that increase the financial burden on Jews, making them choose to pay more or to leave the country or to give up their observance? Why should that be the choices? When Norway passed its ban on kosher slaughter in the 1930s, opponents of the bill argued that it might force Jews to give up their observance or leave the country. Advocates of the bill — many of whom were aligned with the Nazis — considered this to be a major benefit.
Bruce,
I think you misunderstood just what windmill you were tilting against.
I choose my words very carefully, and if I had meant “Here’s a list of things that are Mespo considers Morally Equivalent” I would have said something that means that. I didn’t, I expressly said WHAT trait the items had in common: they are all things Mespo has spoken out against, despite any religious justification the participants might use.
Bruce: “Gyges: As a Jew, a Talmud scholar, a licensed attorney (Georgetown) and a rare liberal democrat among Orthodox Jews, and as one who has seen anti-semitism grow among European leftists, I am probably especially sensitive to seeing anti-Jewish sentiments in a blog…”
—LOL, Accepting unilaterally that you are all of those things, learned and honorable as they are, I must observe that as a marksman you leave something to be desired.
The most consistent, persistent and tireless defenders of the Israeli State on this blawg is mespo727272. He’s also big on equity and individual rights, as in freedom from religion as much as to practice a religion. For the most part the posters here are not one dimensional. That takes some time and reading over many threads to fully appreciate. Your opinion of Mespo may be the result of your low expectations due to few visits and narrow reading habits.
Byron “I have seen animals slaughtered both ways, personally the only difference I saw was a bolt to the head. I would imagine a blow to the head hard enough for an animal to pass out is no less traumatic than cutting the throat..”
—
think the point of using the bolt if applied properly is that it works more quickly to render the animal unconscious. It is traumatic but fast. Previously in slaughter house’s it was done with a sledge hammer because the animals are hung up prior to having their throats cut. The real horror IMO is how cattle are farmed and treated during shipment, holding and movement to the killing floor.
Bruce:
I have seen animals slaughtered both ways, personally the only difference I saw was a bolt to the head. I don’t think cutting the throat is any more or less painful. From a purely scientific standpoint once the carotid and jugular are severed there is an immediate reduction in blood pressure and I would imagine the animals pass out relatively quickly. I would imagine a blow to the head hard enough for an animal to pass out is no less traumatic than cutting the throat.
If you knocked them out prior to slaughter would that invalidate the Kosher designation?
A question to the gentiles, does it really even matter how they die as long as it is relatively humane?
Troll is as troll does, Forest.
Gyges:
As a Jew, a Talmud scholar, a licensed attorney (Georgetown) and a rare liberal democrat among Orthodox Jews, and as one who has seen anti-semitism grow among European leftists, I am probably especially sensitive to seeing anti-Jewish sentiments in a blog I agree with on most points. I personally (and successfully) campaigned to stop a Dutch plan to effectively ban kosher slaughter by exposing as false testimony of a food inspector who swore that a Jewish shochet (slaughterer) had required multiple cuts to kill a steer. I pointed out to the Agricultural attache at the Embassy in Washington that had the shochet required multiple cuts, the carcas would not have been considered kosher, and his owner would have suffered an expensive loss. Once the Dutch realized that the testimony was false, I connected them with the Orthodox Union’s kashrut experts who explained the procedures that are involved. Tilting at windmills? No. Good attorneying (and pro bono, at that)? Yes.
Bhuda: I am not obsessed with pedophilia, only quoting from Gyges post, who brought it up when he said:
Bruce,
I’d suggest you read more comments by those you imply are bigots. You’ll find out they (especially Mespo) treat what they perceive as the less savory aspects of all religions with the same disdain. From systemic pedophilia, to systemic child abuse, to a less humane slaughter of animals, they feel that religious conviction is no shield for bad behavior.
Gyges stated that Mespo lumps these “sins” together. Not I. My point is, if he does equate “systemic pedophilia,” “systemic child abuse,” and “a less humane slaughter of animals” — the latter a conclusory statement that is highly disputed — then he is comparing all observant Jews to pedophiles — if he isn’t then Gyges has misstated his position. But I relied on your confirmation of Gyges’ assessment.
Bruce,
Do you ever actually win a jousting match against those windmills?
“When in fact mespo’s”
Bruce,
You’re the one crying bigotry. I asked specifics and you gave them based on what is an obviously flawed sample space and an inability to take criticism about your religion from those who are critical of religion in general based on the assumption they (specifically mespo) have no knowledge of other religions – an assertion that is historically demonstrably wrong. You also tipped your hand, Wayne. Of mespo, you said, “He’s not a biggot, he just thinks that the moral choice millions of Jews have made to keep kosher is equivalent to being a pedophile!” When if fact mespo’s one and only statement on this thread was “Wonderful rebuttal to ignorance.” So the ignorance here seems to be yours – ignorance in substance and of form. Your obsession with pedophilia is showing. Again. Then you attack me and accuse me of bias. Because I disagreed with your incorrect assertion of their ignorance as your “proof”.
You just couldn’t keep your personal psychotic animus toward firstly mespo and secondly myself under control, could you?
Way to go, troll.
Gyges: Oh, how much better you make me feel about Mespo: He’s not a biggot, he just thinks that the moral choice millions of Jews have made to keep kosher is equivalent to being a pedophile!
Mr. Moran: I can’t speak to Halal symbols and what they represent, but I do know that there are kosher symbols on a ton of products — so much so that you just cannot avoid them unless you want an exclusive diet of pork rinds. Kosher symbols are on food products that are kosher — as many processed foods are or can be — but the symbol gives the kosher consumer confidence that there are no hidden ingredients which would violate our dietary concerns (manufacturers do not have to report ingredients if they constitute less than 2% of the volume; they also do not report agents that go into food that do not affect flavor, but which might be made from unkosher substances). So kosher certification allows more people access to the market place without violating anyone else’s rights. So how does that hurt you? I, on the other hand, want to know when, for example, a food dye is used that is made from bug parts. I want to know when lard is used on rollers that make aluminum foil. I think vegetarians appreciate this information, too. So I will tell you what I tell people who don’t want to buy Israeli inventions (e.g. cell phones and vital medicines for MS). Go ahead. Don’t. Your protest will make absolutely no impact on the marketplace and will hurt no one but yourself. And, it will ensure that people will recognize you as a biggot.
Bhuda: You counseled me that “Claims of incredible bias require incredible evidence. Be specific or otherwise you’re just making a generalization absent proof, Bruce. I think, in fairness, Mespo and Moran need the same advice. Neither knows anything about the whats, whys and wherefores of kashrut, but are quick to condemn them — and all religions they know nothing about — as “ignorant superstition.” I think that by not giving them the same advice, you therefore have a double-standard which is also proof of bias.
@ Bruce
I made no reference to price. Everyone’s yoghurt was “Halal”. The airline’s attitude was that because that suits a tiny minority’s superstition that the rest-of-us won’t mind participating. I did mind, where was my non-Halal version??? It was important to me.
And yes, if I put a “sticker” on something to convert it to Kosher or Halal then that qualifies as superstitious tribal nonsense. The person tasting it can’t tell the difference.
Gyges summary is indeed correct.
Bruce,
I’d suggest you read more comments by those you imply are bigots. You’ll find out they (especially Mespo) treat what they perceive as the less savory aspects of all religions with the same disdain. From systemic pedophilia, to systemic child abuse, to a less humane slaughter of animals, they feel that religious conviction is no shield for bad behavior.
Specifics? Moran called kashrut: “tribal superstitions,” “absurd superstitious nonsense,” and “stupid superstitions.” Mespo calls it “ignorance.” ShireNomad’s comment, however, was fair and to the point.
Furthermore, Moran’s argument that he shouldn’t have to pay for kosher certification of consumer products, like yogurt, is one that mirrors neo-Nazis who make the same point. The fact that for routine items like breakfast cereals, snack bars, and yogurt, you would have to buy several thousand items before the total passed-on cost of kosher supervision would be a dime. Us consumers of kosher meat, however, pay roughly triple what you all pay, because the costs of kosher meat inspection and production are much higher.
Oh yes, the taste that you are getting is from the process of using salt to draw out blood. We wash out the salt, but there is some improvement, as noted by chefs who like a brine bath for turkeys. It is an unintended benefit of the process.