To the delight of civil libertarians and libertarians alike, the Canadian courts have been leading the world in dealing with conflicts between privacy principles and morality legislation. I am serving as an expert in the review of Canadian polygamy laws in British Columbia. In the meantime, the Ontario Superior Court may allow three prostitution laws to die this Saturday.
In September, the Court struck down the laws. The federal government is charging that this is nothing short of a “social experiment unprecedented in this country.” However, it is also a frank acknowledgment that consenting adults came engage in sex for money as a consensual choice. Currently, an individual can have sex with any number of partners but can be arrested if they accept anything of value in exchange for sex. They can receive gifts as part of a “relationship” no matter how fleeting but not as payment.
The Court previously noted that criminal laws force prostitutes in the shadows where they are easy prey for abuse and even homicides. Once legal, protections and regulations can apply to the world’s oldest profession. With the demise of the laws, street walking will be legal.
Source: Star
Jonathan Turley
” I think addiction causes prostitution because addicts need a LOT more money than non-addicts, so they seek out the highest paying job for unskilled labor they can work, and soon they are giving blowjobs in parked cars or back rooms. ” TonyC.
This is where we disagree. I believe that, in the case of addicted sex workers, it is the prostitution that leads to the drug addiction that causes the need to sustain the career in prostitution.
You have absolutely given situations in which women do voluntarily become high price ” call girls “/ escorts etc. In theory and in specific situations I do agree that prostitution could work well for people if it was de-criminalized. The single mom who wants to earn a middle/upper class living while still being able to be home during the day for her kids, the college student who wants to graduate without a mountain of debt etc etc. However this is NOT the ” typical ” situation for most prostitutes. Here is an example of the norm in the sex trade ( I am going to use ” she ” as a reference as the typical sex worker is female ):
Baby is born into abusive family, suffers abuse and neglect throughout childhood, has no enocouragement to succeed in school therefore puts little effort into education, starts getting into trouble as an adolescent which spins into more abuse at home, runs away from the violence and is ” saved ” by the wonderful man she meets while living on the streets. Wonderful man starts treating her very very nicely…. ” finally “, she thinks
” someone loves me “. Then wonderful man breaks the news…she’ll have to start hooking to help bring in some money, she protests, wonderful man beats her up. Later he brings her flowers and appologizes profusely for his terrible behaviour. He explains that he understands how difficult it will be for her but that they really need the money, and she’ll only have to do it a few times. Then, he suggests that a small hit of meth will help her ” relax ” through it. She takes the Meth turns the trick and brings him the money for her efforts she receives praise and thanks from Mr. Wonderful. The cycle has begun.
The problem is TonyC, there will always be this type of situation and once prostitution is de-criminalized that means all prostitution. I don’t believe that our government will have a list of ” when it’s ok and when it’s not ok “.
There are certainly variations for this fictional tale …..but the outcomes are the same.
Oh and with regard to your suggestion that addictions be considered mental illness. In DSMIVR addictions are listed as Axis 1 disorders. Currently, in Ontario, most addictions and mental health services operate together under the same roof. Funding for Mental Health & Addictions services are both proveded by the Ministry of Health & Long Term Care.
Tony C.,
“Addiction is a problem; I think it is a form of mental illness.”
True and false.
Some addictions are almost purely psychological, like sex, marijuana or gambling. Other addictions have chemical components, like heroin and cocaine. They damage your bodies ability to manufacture and/or properly uptake serotonin or other neurotransmitters. In fact, cocaine has been found to have a genetic basis as well as a neurochemical basis (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3438758/Cocaine-addiction-gene-discovered.html). This is not to say that physical addictions can’t have psychological components – they often do, but it’s not as simple as “it is a form of mental illness”.
If addiction and prostitution are “correlated” then does that mean that a reduction in one will reduce the other?
They have drugs in Europe (dah!!) and there are probably studies over there about how the various programs they sometimes use such as providing drugs for free to registered addicts affect prostitution. There was some study a few years ago that said that after a few years of getting free drugs and working simple legal jobs, many addicts actually quit so they can do more complicated legal jobs.
I seemed to have missed why you guys are against “Fine the John” programs that don’t involve criminal sanctions against the prostitutes. I don’t understand why you think that your claimed right to sell sex translates to a claimed right to buy sex.
@Canadian: Addiction is a problem; I think it is a form of mental illness. Perhaps it should be classified as such, if it can be defined, and the state should have the right to break people’s addictions, even against their will. I don’t know.
I am in favor of legalized drugs but there is a large gray area between recreational drug use and addiction; just like a person that routinely consumes a few alcoholic drinks every night is not necessarily an alcoholic. Is a person that feels compelled to smoke 50 cigarettes a day mentally ill? Should we incarcerate them in rehab until they can smoke only ten? Addiction is difficult to define precisely enough for law, I think.
I guess I don’t understand your objection (if there is one), because an addict is going to do SOMETHING for the crack, no matter what. I guess I think if she blows some guy for $20 that has less fallout for society than if she tries to steal a $100 watch she can pawn for $20. She can only sell her service to a guy that wants it. If she steals, she is imposing an involuntary cost on the victim or store owners.
In the real world of practical alternatives, these two seem plausible to me, and the idea that she is going to be able to work six hours as a hairdresser to buy a $20 rock does not seem plausible.
The things you are worried about are problems of addiction, not prostitution. Removing prostitution from the list of jobs an addict can do to pay for her addiction solves nothing, she will turn to crime or something else, that is the nature of addiction.
To me, it seems better if addicts can be legal prostitutes and have access to the law and courts, it should reduce the amount of crime they engage in if they have a legal route to earn enough to support their habit.
That said, free government programs to rehab volunteering addicts would be a good thing, and in the event addicts commit crimes (with actual victims, like theft or assault) are committed as a result of addiction, sentencing with a rehab component seems like a good thing to do.
Addiction and prostitution may be correlated, but I don’t think voluntary prostitution causes addiction any more than higher education causes addiction (both produce an increase in income). I think addiction causes prostitution because addicts need a LOT more money than non-addicts, so they seek out the highest paying job for unskilled labor they can work, and soon they are giving blowjobs in parked cars or back rooms.
Legalizing or criminalizing prostitution does nothing to address addiction. If anything, legalizing it makes it easier on the addict by not forcing them into a world of crime, run by criminals, in order to pay for their habit.
kay,
Critique? Why bother? So I can watch your loopy rationalizations some more?
Canadian Eh!,
Howdy yourself. 🙂
@ Swarthmore Mom & Blouise…..
Thank-you 🙂
@ Buddha…
Howdy 🙂
@ Kay……
” CORNWALL — The extension of current prostitution laws should be an opportunity for the community to discuss the ramifications of a legalized sex trade, say the city’s police chief and local bishop.
Justice Marc Rosenberg agreed Thursday with federal and Ontario government lawyers to prolong current prostitution laws to April 29, 2011. ” The Stanford Freeholder, Dec 3 2010
If you’re asking where I live in proximity to Toronto, I am about 3 hrs. South East but not as far East as Cornwall where this case originated.
As for your other questions, I don’t keep stats on that information, nor are they asked for by the province in the stats that I have to maintain in my job.
@ Tony C…..I’m actually not arguing that prostitution should remain legal simply because of addiction. I think you’re mistakingly suggesting that my hesitance to agree with the decriminalization is based on the same arguments that Kay is presenting. I have no moral judgment against prostitutes or drug addicts. In fact, I agree with legalization of non-narcotic drugs.
My argument comes more from the concern that I have for the sex workers who WILL NOT be protected by legally organized sex service operations. My concern is also for the large number of sex workers who are mentally ill and/or emotionally disturbed and are exploited in the sex trade.
In terms of renumeration, in your opinion, being too low for anyone to voluntarily engage in paid sex, that is why I listed the amount of money it takes to buy certain drugs. If a woman, who uses pot to numb the pain of abuse, needs $5 to purchase 1 joint she will provide a ” service ” to receive that $5 to buy that 1 joint. Not all services rendered include intercourse.
Dear BIL
Fine, I’ll post and you can critique.
Have you ever heard of SPSS — Statistical Program for the Social Sciences?
“Specializing in data mining, customer relationship management, business intelligence and data analysis.”
In order to provide the support for proper policy analysis, the available data should be gathered and made available for analysis.
One record source is booking data. I happen to be reading up on booking systems in order to prosecute my Privacy Act lawsuit.
Booking data is supposed to include
All offenses charged
Thus it should show concurrent arrests for drugs and which drugs they are
Also, concurrent violent arrests, robbery etc.
Age
Claimed city of birth
Claimed family status — may vary in collection procedures
Claimed occupation
Claimed medical status
prescription and non prescription drug use reported both legal and illegal.
Parole or probation status
Also on public record would be bail set and whether it was paid.
Also on pubic record is whether or not there was a public defender.
If there is a public defender then there is usually some sort of financial statement.
kay,
Order whatever you want. Having information and being able to properly process it are two different things.
Canadian Eh!,
I second SwM on her last post … “Good morning to you, Canadian. Your experience with working with prostitutes has added valuable information to this debate. You bring reality not fantasy to the debate.”
I knew very little about this subject when the thread was first introduced. After reading all the posts, the links provided and additional research on my own, I am better informed.
I do support decriminalization/legalization fully recognizing that smart bad guys (and their lawyers) will find a way to take advantage of the legislation. But that is the case in every field from banking to lemonade stands … bad guys with good lawyers always find a way. So I concentrate on the sex trade workers themselves and how decriminalization/legalization would benefit them.
I also support unionization for all the benefits such organizing brings to its members. In this country, medical coverage would be one of the real benefits of unionizing.
One of the biggest problems I foresee in this country is getting proper legislation passed through all our crocked politicians who will have their greedy hands out looking for “contributions” from pimps and prostitutes alike. Our government is one huge pimping machine and that’s our fault and no excuse for not trying to improve the lives of those who find themselves working in the sex trades.
PS Tony
I think the self proclaimed “crack whore” I met in jail actually had a group of boyfriends who supported her with like 80% of the outgo to crack. From what I heard, crack is really addictive. I think they were sleeping in run down hotels. I didn’t hear anything about a pimp. The Johns were using crack with her, is the impression I got. I remember something she was happy because one of them put $10 on her commissary account so she could buy candy.
“If it didn’t pay very well, it would not be the profession of choice for the drug addicts”. That is not necessarily so. Often the pimp is also the drug dealer. In any case the pimp has access to the drugs the prostitute needs. It is kind of a vicious circle when one gets hooked on drugs and is a prostitute.
I sorted “my” cards. Professor, I have a suggestion about this blog. When the typing is posted it is dark but when you are typing it in, it is lighter and harder to read.
You could give my eyes a break and have an easier to read preview function. I guess I could clean the monitor screen and my glasses too.
Sorry I didn’t say anything offensive, where is the edit function.
@BIL
I sent an open records request to the State of Nevada to get licensing information for prostitutes and brothels. When it comes I will post on it.
There is probably some study of prostitution in Ontario that could come in from some sort of open records request.
In the United States, the Government Accounting Office has in the past done special studies when requested.
Where prostitution is illegal, one baseline statistic would be the number of women aged 20-30 who are unmarried and don’t report income. Of course then we get into data matching issues but the government has both the income data and the census data.
Dear Tony
I can’t write long because I have to get back to shoveling snow
You wrote above and of course I have to respond:
@Kay: Because you are making shit up.
Please be specific. You can spend the money on PACER and the transcripts are posted there.
Then you wrote again:
“@Kay: I don’t care why you were jailed, you already let the truth slip out, you were jailed for sassing a judge on his bench and he used his power to punish you and teach you a lesson. That was totally stupid and a result of you not comprehending HOW SHIT REALLY WORKS. Get over it already, don’t turn a few months sentence into a life sentence. Admit stupidity and move on, I’ve done it myself at least four times on bigger ticket items than that. Sometimes we do stupid things that cost us lots of time and lots of money. GIVE UP already.”
——–
First of all that is not what happened. And you can see this by downloading the transcript from PACER. I went to a pre scheduled contempt of court hearing that was scheduled by motion by attorneys working for Lloyds of London and Mutual Insurance of Bermuda. Before going to the hearing I filed a motion for the procedure to be used and that was denied.
Then I went to the U of Wisconsin law library 10 miles from my home and I looked up contempt in both American Jurisprudence and Federal Procedure Lawyers’ Edition. I made photocopies.
When we went to Denver we drove and it is a long drive, like 20 hours. While we were driving I read all the photocopies and I made notes on index cards. I relied mostly on Federal Procedure Lawyer’s Edition and I wrote the citations down.
I really thought that the worse that would happen is that they would talk and then schedule another meeting as I had no lawyer.
When I got there I was told I did not have a right to a lawyer, which is not true. That is a lie.
They also said I didn’t have a right to discovery.
Then Nottingham said that I would only be allowed a 10 minute presentation.
Fortunately I had a little time after he said that. I sorted by cards into a shorter stack. Since I had written them myself the day before and read the photocopies on the drive, it wasn’t that hard.
Then I just read the quotes from the index cards. Then Nottingham said I was out of time.
Then Nottingham made extortionist threats and I was taken into custody.
I asked if I could say one more thing but Nottingham said no.
He actually interrupted my “presentation” when I was quoting the S.C. regarding
Tory et al. v. Cochran, 125 S.Ct. 2108, 544 U.S. 734, 161 L.Ed.2d 1042 (U.S. 05/31/2005)
You see that case was decided only three months before the hearing in which I was taken into custody for the first 124 days. So that was the other reference I quoted that day, because I read about it and looked up the decision on the Internet.
Anyway, I didn’t say anything offense and neither did my husband and no one said that we did.
There is a written court order by Nottingham on PACER and it says that the reason that I was jailed was that I filed in the other courts after being told not to.
Damn. Restate: I do not argue against the idea that some prostitutes are driven to their profession by drug addiction; and I do not argue that addiction is a good thing.
@Canadian (and Kay, and others): I do not argue that some prostitutes are driven to it by their addictions, and I am not arguing that addictions are a good thing.
However, it supports a premise of mine that you guys try to dismiss. Addictions cost money and the addicts need to make more money to support their habit than they (on an individual basis) can earn legally as unskilled workers.
In this situation addicts are free to choose among illegal professions to obtain the money to feed their addiction. Activities such as shoplifting, armed robbery, car theft, kidnapping and so on. For most women their free choice of illegal activity seems overwhelmingly to be prostitution. Some drug addicts resort to armed robbery or car theft, but few of them are women, and the prostitution industry has far more drug-addicted women than the armed robbery business does.
An economist would say the women balanced risk and reward and chose prostitution. That implies it pays much better than minimum wage for supporting a drug habit, and consequently we can believe that for non-addicts prostitution pays much better than minimum wage for supporting one’s children, or a frail mother, or orphaned siblings, or just one’s self.
The idea that women engaged in voluntary prostitution don’t earn very much makes no sense, if it didn’t pay very well, it would not be the profession of choice for drug addicts.
Gramby,
“Typical shtick around these parts, someone with whom you disagree is a deranged psychotic. Mostly people who are not liberal in their thinking are deranged psychotics.”
========================================================
Isn’t it rather psychotics to keep returning to a place where one is constantly misnomered as a psychotic? 🙂
When anyone disagrees with me, I know they’re wrong … unless, of course, they’re right.
kay,
Why don’t you just make up figures to go with your opinion.
It’s what you’re going to do anyway, so why not skip the middleman.