Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
“People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?” Rodney King 5/1/92
The arguments and divisions politically here and throughout this country are rampant and destructive. Anger and hatred of others of differing opinions rises at times to fever pitch and I admit that I am part of the problem as much as anyone else is. This is a somewhat different piece in that I am going to present some national problems, as I see them and elicit your comments on them, in an attempt to discover whether there is some common ground agreement, on some things plaguing our society. While I am more interested in whether or not people agree that these are indeed problems for us all to consider and work to solve, it is certainly apropos for people to comment on what they believe the solutions to be.
This is an experiment on the viability of people agreeing on the premise that a problem exists in a given area. We cannot begin to resolve issues, unless we first agree that they are issues to be contemplated by the entire body politic. My hope is to engender real, civil discussion and perhaps at the end reach something like consensus. This is not a plea for Bi-Partisanship because to me that is a fantasy, whoever may utter it. To be “partisan” is to hold strong opinions and srong opinions do not resolve themselves into agreement. The resolution reached by “partisans” is always one of compromise, without either side changing their core beliefs, but agreeing to take part of the loaf. I am “experimenting” to see if many of the diverse viewpoints represented here can at least agree that a specific issue is indeed a problem, or if it is indeed an issue. Beyond writing this, I will not take part in the ensuing discussion, since the formulation itself indicates my views on whether these are indeed problems. I will limit my questions to legal issues, with no particular order of importance intended.
A. Does the fact that we have the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world indicate a problem?
B. Given the overcrowding and long delays inherent in our legal system, do we need to do something to reform it?
C. Have our Constitutional Rights been diminished?
D. Has the policing authority both State and Locally been extended beyond permissible bounds.
E. Has the War on Drugs been a failure and added to addiction rather than restricting it?
F. From the perspective of criminal/civil procedure, has the Right to Privacy been terminated and/or restrictively diminished?
G. Does State and Federal Government have the right to criminalize non-coercive sexual acts between adults?
H. Should the States and Federal Government admit the “War on Drugs” is a failure and seek new methods to deal with addiction?
As an illustration of what I am looking for I will present this. FFLEO and I both voted for Barack Obama, even though FFLEO and I have very different political and partisan beliefs. Yet we both agree that he has been an awful President. Where we respectfully disagree is that he has stated he will never vote for Obama again and I have stated I might, if there are no alternatives that seem viable. The most important element is that we, though vastly different politically, agree on the nature of the problem. With that agreement, there comes a mutual respect and a future hope of resolution, even though one is not now apparent or even likely. If there is no agreement on whether something is at least a problem, then the legacy of that disagreement is ongoing, unresolved strife.
Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
tom,
My solution is to have the conversation about how to achieve a solution without people like you in it and that’s exactly what I plan to do.
Thank you for illustrating my point.
Kevin
I think the rich are able to buy all three branches of government because politicians like the money they give them. The reason the rich try and pay off politicians is because politicians grant favors in the form of regulations.
The rich are trying to level the playing field. When and if government ever gets out of bed with business, the rich [read people who hire other people] will no longer need to go to Washington to pay protection money.
Tom, I understand how the politics are working. The uber-rich have been doing their best to buy all three branches of government. Aided and abetted by the christianist religious fringe, economic luddites and a hodge-podge of people who watch too much Fox news.
Slartibarfast
“My question to you is, what have you contributed to this thread? Why is it better because you commented? What is your value-add?”
Hopefully, a healthy dose of reality — but if the we” you keep referring to, ever comes up with a viable solution, and a way to make it happen, I’ll be interested to know about it.
Hasn’t anyone ever explained to you how politics works in our country?
Or, have they, and you believed them? Yes? That’s what I mean about being naive.
tom,
The type of argument you used is known as a “God of the Gaps” argument – it is frequently used by cintellgent design proponentists and will serve you no better against anyone looking trying to discuss this in good faith than it does them against anyone with a modicum of scientific understanding.
tom,
So, here is a recap of your comments on this thread:
The reason my ideas don’t stand a chance (according to you) is:
It is insane (in the sense of doing the same thing and expecting different results) to expect these problems to be addressed top-down by politicians. The only things with a chance of working are grassroots efforts. A grassroots movement generating a groundswell of support could force politicians to either join or be overwhelmed and the MSM will cover whatever gets them the most viewers (except FOX – and the cracks have started to appear in Rupert’s facade…). I have other ideas about how these things might be implemented and more potential solutions as well, but I think I’ve shown my good faith here.
My question to you is, what have you contributed to this thread? Why is it better because you commented? What is your value-add?
Nate,
I too could vote for Ron Paul after the damage Mr. Obama has wrought on the Nation. I suggest reading Glenn Greenwald for anyone who wants to know the real Obama—Greenwald definitely has his number.
Blouise,
I appreciate your disagreement. It’s healthy and appropriate when people state their positions clearly and with integrity.
I don’t even bother with people that don’t.
Nate,
I don’t agree with you on Ron Paul but many of my neighbors did the same thing as you for the same reasons and it was a sincere move on their part.
There are two sentences in your post with which I can whole-heartily agree:
“He (Obama) simply wasn’t man enough for the job.” and “I’m ashamed of him.”
Thanks everyone for your responses thus far. As I stated originally I’m not commenting, but in re-reading my post I must point out that H. is superfluous and I shouldn’t have included it.
“A. Does the fact that we have the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world indicate a problem?
B. Given the overcrowding and long delays inherent in our legal system, do we need to do something to reform it?
C. Have our Constitutional Rights been diminished?”
In my community they are all the same.Its like a circle.
“E. Has the War on Drugs been a failure and added to addiction rather than restricting it?”
If you see no evil you can speak no evil,Depends on where you live.
What do i win if find a story that illustrates all 8 different points simulataneously? Well ok theres no prostitution involved, so 7 out of 8 with one link?
http://www.copblock.org/6492/indiana-cop-charged-with-dui-while-hauling-dare-trailer/
A. Does the fact that we have the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world indicate a problem?
Hmmm lets see, your everyday job is to explain to children in detail why its bad to act in a certain way. You then act this way. Not only are your actions stupendously hypocritical but highly illegal. Any other person caught behaving this way would be immediately arrested. Instead because you are a cop you are put on “adminstrative leave” which is a euphamism for paid vacation. Forget for a minute im even talking about the story in the link above and consider it in the context of police testimony in a court of law. Its fairly frightening.
B. Given the overcrowding and long delays inherent in our legal system, do we need to do something to reform it?
Abolish it. Establish patrol and restitution services. This incident is just one in a tremendous pattern of police misconduct being treated very differently than ciminal actions by civilians. There is multiple evidence of officers committing much more than petty abuses of power, or even hospitalizing those under their dubious care. Police murder with impunity. They know that they will never be held accoutable for their actions unless faced with extreme circumstances.
C. Have our Constitutional Rights been diminished?
I dont believe rights to orginate with the constitution. The fact that most people agree that our rights have diminished under the constitution would actually seem to support my theory given that if the constitution is incapable of granting rights, it can do very little to defend against encroachments upon those rights.
D. Has the policing authority both State and Locally been extended beyond permissible bounds.
This one should be startlingly obvious to anyone. Why is it a good idea to have the police teach kids about the consequences of drugs? Why dont the police just tell them the truth? You shouldnt do drugs because if we even suspect that you do, me and my friends will kick down your door, toss flashbangs, shoot your dogs, and points guns at you in your own home. And if we dont find anything or even raid the wrong home we might take it easy on you and not press charges for resisting arrest.
E. Has the War on Drugs been a failure and added to addiction rather than restricting it?
yes see above link where the cop who teaches kids about how bad drugs are got drunk and wrecked his truck hauling his anti drug equipment as the final nail in the coffin of the idea of social engineering morality.
F. From the perspective of criminal/civil procedure, has the Right to Privacy been terminated and/or restrictively diminished?
It has been for many years. Not because apple knows your gps location so it can send you ads for restraraunts in your town. Because the surviellance of the american people by its government is justified by the war on drugs/terrorism. “If you didnt do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about” does not justify the lengths to which the government goes to monitor the minutie of its citizen’s daily lives.
G. Does State and Federal Government have the right to criminalize non-coercive sexual acts between adults?
No, but im extending this to mean prostitution as well as the gay rights im assuming this was directed towards. Not only that but its childish to think the government has any practical way to enforce any laws in this manner.
H. Should the States and Federal Government admit the “War on Drugs” is a failure and seek new methods to deal with addiction?
Why should the government be concerned with what is ultimately a personal, social, and medical issue that should never have been within its scope to begin with? It should not have a “drug policy” at all. Individuals should have their own drug policy. Even if you vehemently disagree with me on these points, what you cannot deny is the outright farce the war on drugs is. On the one hand the drugs we legalize, nicotine and alchohol, kill more people than all other illict narcotics combined, by the thousands. Yet the government collects tons of revenue from taxing those it keeps legal and privately profiting and participating in the proliferation of those it labels illegal. Two words Iran Contra.
One more thing, the closest I’ve ever come to venting so I apologize ahead of time if I ruffle some feathers…
The [North] American people voted Mr. Obama into the Presidential role because of his campaign promises. He gave us his word that he would pull us out of war. On a personal level, I’m aware that circumstances change all the time. Had he simply explained to me and to us why he changed when he got in office, I could understand. Since he didn’t bother to explain his flip-flops, I take it as a personal affront. We were lied to.
In my opinion, the best thing President Obama could do is not run for a second term. He simply wasn’t man enough for the job. There’s no shame in that, but by running again, he’s expecting me and expecting us to approve his behavior to the extent of voting and/or supporting him a second time. I can’t quite identify the feelings that arise in me when I consider that, but they’re definitely not good. I’m ashamed of him. He’s an utter disgrace.
I changed my voter status from Independent to Republican just so I can vote in their primaries for Ron Paul. I value his integrity. Where his weaknesses are unpalatable, the political tug-of-war can override them. I’d have preferred Kucinich, and only time will tell who gets my vote. It will not be someone I believe will lie to me. It’s the one thing I utterly cannot abide. Lies.
Pete, EXCELLENT link. Thank you.
Well pete, I think it will be much easier to ‘deal’ with the Taliban than the NAR…
Good article @ the link, thanks.
and i don’t see finding common cause with a large part of the new republican party
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151911/the_biggest_religious_movement_you_never_heard_of%3A_nine_things_you_need_to_know_about_rick_perry%27s_prayer_event/?page=entire
while i agree with most of your points mike (or mikey if it makes you feel younger), ffleo makes some valid points concerning the religious in this country. i would add that a large percentage of the religious believe that some of us are not just wrong but evil murderers who must be stopped by any means necessary.
add to that an oddly large number of people who believe that a government has no right to tax its citizens, even though every governing entity since the dawn of mankind has supported itself with taxation.
we’ve given extraordinary powers to our government in recent years, powers that they will not give up without a fight.
Slartibartfast,
Good luck with your optimistic endeavors and thanks for those efforts. If an honest, true progressive Democrat was running, I would vote for him/her in a heartbeat, given the Republican field of candidates.
By the way, my optimism has never faltered. Where others see divisions and dismay, I do to, but I also see wonderful events.
We the People of the United States were able to move past our inherit racism and elect the first non-white President. That speaks volumes about us.
We the PEOPLE OF THE WORLD have made our intentions clear in honoring President Obama with the Nobel Peace Prize. It was what We chose for Ourselves.
Without the borrowing of funds, the United States War Machine cannot continue. That crisis could originate either internally (we can start correcting ourselves) or externally (it will be forced upon us). I was very happy to see it come from within. The War Machine must no longer be fed.
I know correction will come. It’s inevitable. We can hasten it or we can increase our pain until we can take the pain no more. But it’ll be here sooner or later.
anon, hahahaha! Mr. Miyagi!
excellent except ‘the people’ have been getting squished for a while now…squish….like grape!
I have a hard time seeing what is happening as governance. I don’t think we have any political parties in our system…they have been usurped by special interest. We have elected officials that apparently get paid in trips and gifts to go and have bills written for them to present for passage…bills which are written by the new overlords….this in addition to thier salaries and bennies …like healthcare (cough cough)…
decriminalize all the drugs…we’re gonna need them….
decriminalize all the guns….we’re gonna need them…
and Constitutional rights don’t exist. They are unenforced, ignored or broken…..and most people don’t even hear about it.
so this all becomes pretense with the same weight as a theoretical discussion on global warming and civility is just what people do because it keeps the herd from stampeding….