Our erstwhile ally in Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai is responding to the brutal murder of U.S. ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens and three other embassy staff in Benghazi on Wednesday. Stevens was reportedly suffocated to death by the attacking mob which attacked the consulate because of a small film shown in the United States that was deemed as insulting to the Muhammad. Karzai then offered his own take on the murders by denouncing the “inhuman and abusive act” of the . . . filmmakers.
President Obama heralded Stevens as someone who “[t]hroughout the Libyan revolution, he selflessly served our country and the Libyan people at our mission in Benghazi . . . and supported Libya’s transition to democracy. His legacy will endure wherever human beings reach for liberty and justice. I am profoundly grateful for his service to my administration, and deeply saddened by this loss.”
Afghan President Hamid Karzai then stepped forward to denounce the “inhuman and abusive act” of the filmmakers and criticized them for causing “enmity and confrontation between the religions and cultures of the world.” I have not seen this film and have little interest in doing so. However, those filmmakers have a right to portray Muhammad in any fashion that they wish. It is the basis for free speech. The continued pattern of Muslim extremists killing people as a protest to intolerance is facially absurd and little more than a rationalization for violence. For Karzai to pick up on that theme demonstrates his fundamental disagreement with key free speech and free exercise values. It also shows the dangers of the Obama Administration’s effort to create an international blasphemy standard with its Muslim allies.
The Obama Administration has been working to develop an international standard for blasphemy prosecutions. The West has steadily yielded to the demands of religious groups that free speech must be curtailed in the name of faith. At the same time, Western governmental and religious leaders have denounced agnostics and atheists as one of the greatest threats facing the West (here and here and here and here). President Obama and Hillary Clinton have been facilitating this trend by working with Muslim nations to develop an international standard allowing for the prosecution of those who insult religion. The Administration has drawn a dangerous line with Muslim countries in first supporting the concept of an international blasphemy standard. As I have mentioned before, the efforts of the Obama Administration to work with these countries on an international blasphemy standard is a threat to free speech around the world. After first supporting an international blasphemy standard, the Administration sought to get Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other countries to adopt the Brandenburg standard as the basis for such prosecutions. This case also shows why the use of the Brandenburg standard is so dangerous in the hands of such officials who view free speech as the cause of imminent violence. Past cases show that even the suggestion of blasphemy is enough to trigger violent riots in some Muslim nations. Because any joke or image of the Prophet can trigger violence, the standard is immediately satisfied in countries like Egypt and Pakistan, which can then claim some legal legitimacy under the standard created with the United States.
Secretary of State Clinton continues to push for the implementation of the new international effort to criminalize certain forms of anti-religious speech as our Muslim allies expand their definition of blasphemy.
Source: Guardian
The death of our ambassador and these other Americans was simply murder. It was not caused by a film or the exercise of free speech. It was caused by the continued failure of leaders like Karzai to stand up to extremists who believe that violence is warranted whenever people insult your faith or a religious figure. There is a global struggle today over free speech, not just in the Middle East but in the West. The solution is not to enable or legitimate efforts by people like Karzai to prosecute those who “cause” violence by engaging in unpopular or blasphemous speech.
Source: National Journal
Lotta,
Read me again. What facts do we disagree on. I insulted you perhaps by passing judgement on your knowledge of the subject, aaying not impressed, etc.
It is proven that bin Laden cooperated with the CIA over a long period of time. Can not that get that to go together with fanatical falsfism.
Will Amazon Clark’s book. Thanks for the tip. Up to me to read, if I desire to do so.
PS
The 14-year old is a gray-haired man now. Infamous for his cowardice and famous for daring to spy on the Socialist party’s own FBI equivalent. He copped a plea, leaving his partner to do two years in prison. Many years ago.
Talk about chasing leakers. SOP then by the Socialist party who were in goverment position.
LottaKatz,
“Darn! just wrote a long posting to ID707 and WordPress ate it- srsly, I had to go through a hell of manipulation to keep my last posting from being disappeared and then I ended up opening the wrong thread before my computer froze up-Arggggg, WP is acting up?”
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Yeah´, it is hell with WP. Two rapid page returns/Enter and it will prematurely post OR swallow the whole thing. Other mysterious as yet unidentified key nudges will cause disappeatances.
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I am lazy and don’t read books normally. But a few. Do you think his whole book is worth the time?
Got an inside story for you. Usama as some write it, spent a summer here in Sweden, meant to be a whole year, as a guest of a Swedish family. He was disappointed and returned home instead after the summer. Culture conflict. It was his equally old host who mentioned if a couple of years ago. Mystery unsolved. But his family obviously had made the decision for him initially.
Why should I doubt his devotion to wahabism or even the falafist position? He did lead Al Quaeda. He was a devout if extreme person in his recorded videos.
But he could be a tool, just as the American public are tools of their government. How does that thought strike you. New one?
Hi, tool-1. Reply: Hi, who are you serving today Tool-2???
LottaKatz,
I could cite all of what you wrote, but will emphasixe the naturalness of the child being with a “working mother”. Second the infant reflex to grasp hair for safety. Third the need for bonding contact, baby stimulation (whole childhood), and showing the wonders of the world while feeling safe with Mom. Stimulation is vital as sleep is to an infant.
Thanks a lot. A typical Lotta comment, always deeper and better. Great hypothetical mom, from a hypothetical dad.
Malisha,
If you are straight and not sex fixated you don’t see the joke in what I wrote about my urologist. thus my first answer to you.
NOW, I do. Ho ho ho. He hurt me last by inserting a metal peeper and crouching over that to see into the bladder. Wasn’t sexy at all. But no sign of a tumor.
As a private doctor he can’t afforde the fancy stuff with TV monitors and heads up working position which I had experienced at the urology dept.
LOL
Blouise,
Upon re-readng your answer to me.
Stupid is my problem, not a conscious need to spin you or others. Take it or disbelieve it. I am still chasing justice and reacting to formulations, and sometimes semantic content. Kick back is all I ssk for, and explanations if desired.
Did I spin your words? maybe your intentions. but understand your divorce needs now.
Malisha,
Nor sure of your basis for concern. He just briefly said the problem is not Wahabism, but falafists. Check them out. No exactly heavy propaganda. No rant or even asking what I had found, etc. OK? You be the judge, it was your question.
Blouise,
Aha! I knew there was something I was missing. Like reading again,for example, assuming that would suffice.
I added that to reduce the impact of nudge. Glad you kept the reply even softer. Helps me in my labors. Positive reinforcemant, and not enabling I hope.
Moral: If I feel confuesed, read again. If I feel certain, read two times again. Hee Hee. That is not a giggle but a mischievous cackle.
BarkinDog here. Dont mind Captain Ratty. He is the guy who fixes our Dogalogue machine and our computer hookups. He dont like religions or pirates. He wont be back for a good month. He trains dolphins how to spy and report back to the Navy with their observations. He is out at the dock talking to GigglePuss as we speak.
In regard to the computer problems which some of you are having, it is my belief, no, my thought process, that the Lord has been reading this blog and wants us all to chill. His Devine Intervention will perhaps allow us some kind thoughts for religions and inmates of all stripes. After all, if you believe in a Deity then you must pray and if you pray you must cease thinking, and if you cease thinking then you might as well praise the Lard and if it aint Sunday then you can praise the Krisco. Dont get too fat. It is far better to walk to church and lose some weight than drive there and show off your car to the other inmates. And if you are gonna be a bear then be a grizzily. Every thing in moderation, including spell check and nasty word censure. Is it Deity or Diety, either way it references losing weight.
If a moderator wants to purge my previous posting here, which I put on the correct thread regarding teacher/breast feeding/etc., please do so. Sorry, my ‘puter started shutting down one program and Internet tab at a time in slo-mo, I grabbed the one tab when I lost my text editor (Ultra-Edit) and another tab then my mouse then my computer. Only here, only with WordPress.
Darn! just wrote a long posting to ID707 and WordPress ate it- srsly, I had to go through a hell of manipulation to keep my last posting from being disappeared and then I ended up opening the wrong thread before my computer froze up-Arggggg, WP is acting up?
Suffice it to say, if my understanding is wrong give me the name of a book that shows my error. The book by Richard Clark – one of the incredibly few government people I trust – did about a 100 page intro to 911, who, what, where, when, lay of the land in his book “Against All Enemies: Inside America’s War on Terror—What Really Happened” That intro pulls it together succinctly and reflects the bits and pieces of the history I read elsewhere.
As I understand it Bin Laden practices the most conservative form of Wahhabism which is essentially Salifism, it would be more appropriate to have called Bin Laden a Salifist.
Otteray Scribe Contributed:
“To echo raff and Darren, among others, would somebody please explain to me why we are still there? It did not work for the British in the 19th century, the Soviets in the 20th and it is not going to work for us in the 21st. “
~+~
A complex issue that has become more and more, in my view, intertwined with politics and lessons politicians failed to learn over generations.
I don’t have the answer on this but this is what I see.
As you are aware the history of this country so no need to explain it further. I believe we went into war against Afghanistan with all the right reasons, I do believe in several respects there are troops are preventing thousands of people from being subjugated and murdered by the Taliban and al Qaida, and to some degree we are preventing another totalitarian safe haven for terrorism.
Having said that the flip side we are not doing the right thing. I look at the occupation of Japan as being a better example of how things worked out. Germany was lengthened obviously by the need to protect the West and ourselves from the threat of a Soviet Invasion. But there were few insurrections in either place. Part of this might lie in the state of mind of many of the Afghan people and their history of doing it their way. But the problem I see is that while we wanted to allow the people of Afghanistan a chance to set up their own government, and this usually is good, the chance one takes is that the gov’t the people vote in might not be what the US wants.
I believe the US Gov’t feared warloard types (slightly lesser than what President Karzai was associated with) so convenience was that he represented a lesser of the two evils. We supported him knowing the corruption he embraced but it was better so we facilitated him in many ways to win the election. Now he has shown to be a disappointment.
During the Japanese occupation there were at least two times, if memory serves me right, of where the US objected to what was going on with the newly formed government and essentially took it out of power. Finally setting for something a little more acceptable and allowed the process to continue which it evolved into something more acceptable.
I suppose the hope was with Afghanistan was that something of this nature would evolve here but is not to the point where most will agree it was on its way to being a more acceptable gov’t to all. I don’t know which way it will go.
One of the reason for this is that there is not a universally acceptable enough view of the new government by the citizens living there. Had the whole of the population chose to abandon the old ways and wanted to turn over a new and better chapter for them we would have seen a faster and mostly positive change. Look at Hungary and the Czech Republic for an example of this when they threw out the Soviet Puppet Gov’t in those countries.
There is the hope on behalf I suspect of many in the US gov’t that eventually Afghanistan will be able to throw out the Taliban and begin to reconcile their internal differences and we can go home. But, that is not the case presently. So the US is forced into a difficult position. I believe the want is to get out of Afghanistan but the fear is the Taliban will return to power and this will prove not only horrible for the ordinary Afghan citizen but strategically embarassing to the US and the fear is that it would embolden other anti-US countries to test us in other war theaters. And we would then return to having another terror base there.
But with regard to President Karzai. He may be a despot, but he is THEIR despot and they support him. We have to accept he is there even if we do not like him personally. He has his beliefs and I do not agree with most of them so what do we do?
I have maintained for a long time that we need to be steadfast in our terms of offering support of other governments. The old trap we continually get into of supporting thugs and despots always bites us in the end and this needs to stop. We can offer advice, medical support, and other basic but limited care to other countries, but if they want trade routes, access to our markets, grant monies, or other renumerations it must come at the price of accepting basic human rights and honest and progressive governance. Else, none at all.
Of course the other aspect of this requirement would be that the country will then seek out perhaps an enemy like was the case with the Soviet Union during the cold war, but many of these nations such as India came around and were more accomodating when the Soviets were no longer the saviors they might have expected them to be.
Again I do not know when it will be best for us to leave, if it was tomorrow good, and we should not be there indefinately, but maybe we should be a little more candid with our exit plan and with what we expect of Karzai et al.
You know, There seems to be three general positions on this thread- Meh?, no big deal – bad business and unprofessional – sick babies belong at home.
I can’t speak to the last proposition because all of my children are hypothetical but I can see that that may be correct. OTOH, mothers should know their babies, the baby had a fever but was healthy enough to be crawling around so the magnitude of illness may have been enough to keep it out of day-care but not serious-serious.
The attitude that no personal distraction should intrude on business is an industrial model. There are jobs that are unsafe for children and they shouldn’t be in that environment, that I readily concede. But why not in other business models? (Considering that women get paid less for the same work I would think it would be the least an employer should do, but that’s a different issue).
The industrial model was born when single women worked full time in industry or service, and when they got older and married they stayed home if possible. If not, they played by the industrial rules. Those rules were rescinded to the point that some companies provided day care and the government mandates leave for maternity/child care but its just a modification that reinforce the industrial model of a strict separation of private and public- which is entirely geared toward business. It is anti-human. There should be no difference between the people and any other piece of equipment.
I see documentaries all the time about those poor, backward, third-world countries and the women with breast-feeding children are just going about their lives with their children breast-feeding under a shawl while mom shops in the market, do their farming and cleaning and home or village based manufacturing. In the open-air markets they are selling things and working in their shops and cleaning fish and cooking at their carts. It’s quite civilized.
Mothers have gone about their labors with a baby in a sling on their back or chest since mother and baby Homo Sapien sapiens began. It would make for happier working mothers possibly and a happy worker is a loyal, productive worker. Considering the cost of day care for infants it would make for economically better off working mothers.
***It would make for better babies IMO. I pass by a storefront daycare on front regularly and there were about 9 infants in their own little beds asleep or just laying there staring and looking around. (They partitioned the space and made it private so I don’t see them any more.)If that goes on for any length of time that’s child abuse, IMO, as a hypothetical mother.
That’s the industrial model of child rearing and reinforces the industrial model of employees as mere equipment. It lets nothing distract from the performance of ones duties on the job no matter how menial or ‘safe’ or sedentary the job even if the infant is put in a situation where it’s brain is growing tremendously but its inputs are deprived. Maybe our kids are stupid because we start many them out in a intellectual desert and it harms their brains. Just a hypothetical parent speculating here.***
Why should a woman not have the ability to carry her baby around and nurse it and bond with it and have it stimulated by the world around it at work if it is possible. The teacher in question and many teachers, with a little foresight, could have her baby with her at work all the time if she so chooses. So could a single male parent with an infant child.
I don’t think that’s a necessarily good model. I’d like to see it loosened up, a lot. I think it would be a healthy step for business to do so.
SwM,
Otherwise known as Palin’s Penis Envy Problem
http://thehill.com/blogs/twitter-room/other-news/248927-sarah-palin-urges-obama-to-grow-a-big-stick
Idealist, I’m just a little worried about you getting the “heads up” from your Iranian urologist, but I am glad he doesn’t “milk you.” Am I missing something?
idealist707
1, September 12, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Blouise,
“That’s your spin and never my token so the answer is also yours to provide which will continue to be completely divorced from my opinion.” (to JCT)
====================0
So you know what he is gonna come with. Psychic? Psychotic? Firm as a rock, and just as wise as one too?
Amazing. Take that as a gentle nudge. Bright does not always mean right. And I said that. Use it if you like.
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None of the above. When someone spins my words then asks a question based solely on the spin they applied as if their spin were my thoughts, I always tell them to formulate their own answer based on their own spin. Since neither their spin nor their answer is mine, I own neither and thus the divorce.
Bright may not always be right but stupid ain’t my problem … not so gentle nudge back atcha.
As to Libya, forget bald guy for a second, close the Consulate, Embassy, or whatever. Ask the italians if they will take the place back as a colony. Flood the internet with anti Islamic films and utube rants. Make fun of turbinheads whenever possible. Promote womens’ rights. Rue the day the dictators left the former north african colonies. Better to have Italians or French Frogs running those places than turbinheads. All from here, Howard DeMere.
Holy smokes. It is 2 am folks. got lots to do tomorrow.
nighty night.