Irish Bishops Issue Statement On Savita’s Death

-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger

zucchettoWe have previously discussed the case of Mrs. Savita Halappanavar, a pregnant woman in Ireland who died in agony when doctors refused to perform an abortion that could have saved her life. The Irish Catholic Bishops’ Office has issued a statement regarding Savita’s death. The statement provides no guidance that would help prevent a similar episode from occurring again.

Savita’s death has been a huge PR problem for the Catholic church and should lead a rational person to question those who claim to have the authority to determine morality for us all. A morality that cannot be sustained via rational thought should be discarded. This statement makes no attempt to rationally defend Catholic moral teaching.

The Bishops state that:

Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

Note the use of the term “baby” to refer to a fetus. Conflating baby and fetus is a common psychological ploy to appeal to our emotional self rather than our rational self. Who do we want determining the best medical treatment, a medical professional, or a member of the Clan of the Red Beanie™?

In the real world, the choice often comes down to saving one life or the other. If an abortion is best medical treatment to save the woman’s life, the Bishops have an answer:

… abortion is the direct and intentional destruction of an unborn baby and is gravely immoral in all circumstances …

Apparently, it is not immoral to let the woman suffer an agonizing death that is easily preventable.

The Bishop’s statement also contradicts itself. On the one hand, the Bishops say that “such treatments are ethically permissible,” and on the other hand, abortions are “immoral in all circumstances.” An abortion, in Savita’s case, would have been a medical treatment that put the life of her fetus at extreme risk. Such a medical treatment cannot be both “ethically permissible” and “gravely immoral.”

The irrationality of Catholic morality is evidenced when a woman’s life is saved by an abortion. Often, she is then able to have other children that would never have existed without that abortion. A zero-tolerance of abortion alleviates the condition having to think.

H/T: PZ Myers, Dr. Jen Gunter.

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74 thoughts on “Irish Bishops Issue Statement On Savita’s Death

  1. When we came from Remulak a thousand years ago we gave the Cardinals the red beanies and made sure that they wore them. This is our way of communicating to and from those who think they control planet Earth with their unthinking commands. We need the commands. So right now I am down here trying to figure out some things and perhaps needs some help. The red beanies dont know nuthin bout birthin babies and I am in more need of help on the sole issue of the procreation thing. The two bathtubs in the back yard with man in one and woman in the other has us perplexed. It is right after they take the sex pill but we see no touching other than with the hands across the tub space. Please advise. I am under stressful deadline as you folks might put it. Quite frankly I am interested in when and where you put it and what the function of the bathtubs has in the equation. The red beanies guys have been no help at all and our observation of them seems to indicate that they have quite a fondness for children.

  2. It has to be tough on the poor old guys. They have a myriad of issues they need to be dealing with, a couple of which are not their fault. But the big ones like this case and the child rape issues were brought on themselves by not thinking things through. Had they actually given some silent contemplation (I assume they would call it ‘prayerful’) to what they were doing and what they were demanding of others they could easily identified the end point. Instead they did the easy thing and gave it no actual thought. The result is humiliations galore.

  3. Can anybody quote the Bible where abortion is forbidden, or is it just an outgrowth of thou shalt not kill???

    Especially killing of the seed of the man which he has implanted in you to grow (old understanding of men’s resp women’s roles in procreation). You, woman, are but a chattel. Produce my children and care for them and me. From the beginnning the right of primogeniture was assured man.

  4. These miserable old pedophiles have no right to judge anyone other than themselves and they have obviously failed to address or even discuss the plague of child sex abuse which runs rampant amongst their perverted priests.

  5. Ireland with its national health insurance has a maternal death rate of 4 out of 100,000 pregnancies which is one of the lowest in Europe. The US has a maternal death rate of 12 out of 100,000. Among African American women the rate is 35 deaths per 100,000 It appears to be more dangerous to be a pregnant woman in the US.

  6. Selective statements serves no one….. The issue is should the mother have been allowed to die just because she was carrying a fetus…. A rational person would say no…..

  7. SwM,
    Thanks for bringing the truth home, figuratively (pun?).

    Well put by turning it around.

    Life had expended ca 25 years investment in producing
    a viable, reproductible, skilled user of life. She was sacrificed to religious beliefs. Is there more to say about the insanity of religion?

  8. The first abortion clinic opened in Ireland in 2012. The church, largely because of the abuse scandal, is losing its grip on the people. Irish culture and identity are so entwined with the catholic church that it is hard for the people to separate. The horrific abuse seems to be accomplishing that. I wonder what will replace it.

  9. idealist, The women in Ireland were talking about Akin and republicans and worrying what would happen if these men that said absurd things about rape took over. Ireland like the rest of Europe breathed a sight of relief when the republicans were defeated and Obama won.

  10. US: House Bill Would Permit Hospitals to Let Women in Need of Care, Die

    (Washington, DC) – The United States House of Representatives approved a bill on October 13, 2011, that would put women’s lives at risk, Human Rights Watch said today. The bill, if it becomes law, would reverse longstanding federal policy requiring hospitals to provide life-saving care regardless of expense, Human Rights Watch said.

    The Protect Life Act, HR 358, would amend the healthcare reform law to grant hospitals far-reaching powers to deny patients abortion care, without any exception for emergency situations. US law currently requires hospitals receiving federal funds to provide emergency care to anyone in need up to the point at which they can be stabilized or transferred, if the original hospital is incapable of providing the care they need.

    “The misnamed Protect Life Act is about allowing women to die if they need an emergency abortion,” said Meghan Rhoad, women’s rights researcher at Human Rights Watch. “It is a vicious attack on women’s rights and on the most basic right to life.” This bill passed our republican led House of Representatives.

  11. SwM,

    Every man who votes in favor of this kind of legislation should be required to have his prostrate removed within 6 hours of his vote … hey, if they can pass senseless legislation affecting our bodies, we can pass senseless legislation affecting their’s.

  12. That piece of legislation received 251 votes in the good old USA, Blouise. There were 235 republican votes and 15 democratic ones.

  13. Sickening the bill was even introduced. sickening the amount who voted for it, and especially and disheartening that 15 dems voted for it.

  14. Somethings wrong when old white men without medical training, whether they red beanies or sit in a legislature, proscribe medical treatment or the refusal of it. Can they be charged with practicing medicine without a license? Can they be sued for medical malpractice?

  15. nal:

    is this the sort of moral clarity you are looking for?

    “Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a “right to life.” A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable. . . .”

    Ayn Rand, The Ayn Rand Letter from 1976.

    “An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

    Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?”

    Ayn Rand, Of Living Death from the Voice of Reason

  16. Bettykath boy I would love to see someone go after them for that.
    SWM with the repubs still firmly in control of the House we could still be headed down that road.

  17. bettykath,

    I have often asked that question … they should be held legally responsible for the pain and anguish they willingly pass on to others.

  18. What’s wrong with these red beanie guys is that their own tribe has invested them with way too much authority. When people obsequiously agree with your bullsh*t you can get to thinking what you say has real value; otherwise, how come all the nodding solemn heads, all the respectful bows, all the bruised knees, worshipping at your royal tushie day after day? So you get to imagining that you’re really some hot stuff there, and that can give you the “I can get away with just saying anything” blues.

    Pompous asses. Will somebody please knock them off their perches?

  19. Great job David. It is no surprise that the Bishops would contradict themselves in their own statement. Their whole belief system is being challenged by the fact that they have broken the civil law in many countries by still hiding pedophiles and this latest atrocity is one more example that they do not believe what Christ was teaching.
    I like your prostate idea! :)

  20. idealist707 1, December 1, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Can anybody quote the Bible where abortion is forbidden, or is it just an outgrowth of thou shalt not kill???
    I have been reading up on ancient Irish history, specifically some Celtic ideology.

    I found that Bob Dylan descended from surfers along the Irish coast, out on highway 61 where abortion clinics were first located:

    The sea had also its beneficent aspects. The shore was “a place of revelation of science,” and the sea sympathised with human griefs. At the Battle of Ventry “the sea chattered, telling the losses, and the waves raised a heavy, woeful great moan in wailing them.” In other cases in Ireland, by a spell put on the waves, or by the intuitive knowledge of the listener, it was revealed that they were wailing for a death or describing some distant event. In the beautiful song sung by the wife of Cael, “the wave wails against the shore for his death,” and in Welsh myth the waves bewailed the death of Dylan, “son of the wave,” and were eager to avenge it. The noise of the waves rushing into the vale of Conwy were his dying groans. In Ireland the roaring of the sea was thought to be prophetic of a king’s death or the coming of important news; and there, too, certain great waves were celebrated in story–Clidna’s, Tuaithe’s, and Rudhraidhe’s. Nine waves, or the ninth wave, partly because of the sacred nature of the number nine, partly because of the beneficent character of the waves, had a great importance. They formed a barrier against invasion, danger, or pestilence, or they had a healing effect.

    (Ancient Ireland). This ritualistic song tells of other goings on out on sacred Highway 61:

  21. As this god is omnipotent, then he becomes the biggest abortionist ever existed because miscarriages happen all the times. Let’s not forget that.these same people are for the death penalty.

    Little do they understand that we as humans have to consume life in order to survive. There is no other way.Hence, life is nothing but a bacterium in different forms.

    On the side note, this unfortunate thing happened in the REPUBLIC of Ireland which is “AKIN” to the REPUBLICAN party’s platform.

  22. Swartmore Mom,

    I can second that. At the gym yesterday, lots of old ladies and young female instructors were told by me that the younger women were the ones that got Obama elected, by ca 70 to 30 percent for Romney.

    Yeah, Obama!!! was the reply from all.

    The main newspaper Nov 7 headlined: The world breathes a sigh of relief.

  23. SwM,

    What’s possible? A Class Action law suit against these legislators for violating our rights to privacy under HIPPA or our basic rights to self-determination or … you get my drift … let’s take the fight to them.

  24. Dredd,

    Are you pulling my leg? Beautiful stuff! That’s one of the many reasons I want to live a hundred years to encounter and contemplate such writings.

    When living on a small island with no more than 150 miles to the seashore, then one gets to be a bit crazy.

  25. Teji Malik 1, December 1, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    As this god is omnipotent …
    No he isn’t Teji, he is orthodox baby, cause we don’t smoke potent around here.

    You do know that “god” is a code-word for authoritarian priest and “bleacher’ is a code word for “pew” doncha?

  26. CNN) — Savita Halappanavar died last month in Ireland after being denied a lifesaving abortion. If she had lived in the United States — where in two months we will mark four decades of safe and legal abortion on the anniversary of the Roe v. Wade ruling — she likely would be alive today.

    I was a little girl when this decision overturned state bans across the country that prevented women from access to medically safe procedures. Unlike my mother’s generation — when women often died from self-induced abortions or back-alley abortions performed by a person with no skills or training, often under unsanitary conditions — my siblings, friends, classmates and I grew up with the ability to make informed decisions when faced with an unintended or medically problematic pregnancy.

    Worldwide, many women are unable to make personal health decisions. The consequences are grave. According to a World Health Organization report, about 47,000 women die each year around the world from unsafe abortions. This accounts for about 13% of all maternal deaths. Most of these women die in developing countries, where severe legal restrictions and lack of access to modern medical care drive women to seek unsafe procedures. By contrast, abortion in the United States is incredibly safe: Fewer than 0.3% of women experience complications that require hospitalization.

    But Halappanavar died in a highly developed country. After 17 weeks of pregnancy, she went to the hospital, miscarrying and in extreme pain. Her husband says doctors denied requests for an abortion to save her life; after three days the fetus died, and after suffering for four days, Savita Halappanavar died of blood poisoning.

    Her death in Ireland serves as a stark reminder that living in a developed country does not necessarily protect us from backward health policies. Lawmakers in Ireland who defend that country’s near-total ban on abortion rely on the same politically driven arguments echoed across much of the U.S. by opponents of women’s freedom to choose, as they try to chip away at access to safe and legal abortion.

    In Ohio, for example, legislators are considering a bill that would ban abortion early in pregnancy, even before some women know they are pregnant. According to an analysis from the Guttmacher Institute, half the women in our nation live in states hostile to abortion access; and in 2011 alone, states enacted a record 92 provisions seeking to restrict women’s access to abortion.

    This is not the legacy I wish for my children. I want my son and daughter to grow up in a country where they make their own health care decisions and their privacy is respected. Unless we stand up to these attacks on women’s health and personal decision making, we are sure to hear more stories like Halappanavar’s — and this time closer to home.

    Senseless decisions do not just happen in other countries. In Nebraska, doctors refused to allow Danielle Deaver to end her pregnancy after she learned her daughter would not survive, citing the state’s ban on abortion past 20 weeks gestation. Instead, Deaver was forced to deliver an infant who died moments after birth.

    Evidence shows time and again that banning abortion does not make it go away — it merely leads to more unsafe abortions and more women dying. Some of the countries with the highest abortion rates worldwide have the most restrictive policies. On the other hand, countries with the lowest abortion rates tend to have more supportive abortion policies and strong policy support for contraception.

    Policymakers truly interested in reducing abortion should support strong investment in contraception at home and abroad. Under the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans will be eligible for birth control coverage without a co-pay — which will have a tremendous impact for women across the country who find it a struggle to use contraception consistently because of its cost.

    The U.S. is the largest investor in global family planning and HIV/AIDS programs in the world. We need to protect these investments from budget cuts to ensure that women everywhere can plan and space their children’s births and prevent unintended pregnancy and disease. As the United Nations recently declared, access to contraception is a universal human right.

    We also need to fight for better access to safe and legal abortion at home and abroad. As Halappanavar’s case devastatingly demonstrates, even during a planned pregnancy, a woman must sometimes consider an abortion. The difficult decision to end a pregnancy, to choose adoption or to raise a child should be up to the woman, in consultation with her family, her faith and her doctor.

    On January 22, when my family honors the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, I want to be able to tell my children that our country is moving forward, not turning back the clocks. We will remember Savita Halappanavar on that day and repeat the mantra echoed at vigils in Ireland and around the world honoring her wholly preventable death: Never again.

  27. Blouise, You have a fight brewing in Ohio. The Texas legislature is back in session again and who knows what Perry and the gang have planned to further humiliate women. The dems picked up a few seats so the republicans no longer have a super majority but tea partyers have control of a lot of the committees so who knows. In 2010, they got the sonogram with the probe passed.

  28. idealist707 1, December 1, 2012 at 1:27 pm


    Are you pulling my leg? Beautiful stuff! That’s one of the many reasons I want to live a hundred years to encounter and contemplate such writings.

    When living on a small island with no more than 150 miles to the seashore, then one gets to be a bit crazy.

    It is true history, but it is also “a bit crazy.”

  29. “Blouise, You have a fight brewing in Ohio. ” (SwM)

    Chuckle, been following that have you? 😉

    Oh yes, it’s shaping up to be a huge battle. To take a page from Tony’s playbook, the teabaggers in power are driving a whole lot of young women and their male friends to get actively engaged in this battle who otherwise wouldn’t be paying any attention. Teabaggers are becoming more and more unpopular as their agenda is being pushed down peoples’ throats.

    2014 is going to be a very interesting election

  30. SwM,

    What I find most gratifying is the young women 18-40 years of age who thought the battles their great-grandmothers, grandmothers, and mothers fought were won. They’ve discovered that the battle continues and they are on the front lines for themselves and their daughters. It’s heartening to see they are just as militant and prepared to fight as were their ancestors.

  31. … and better prepared to do battle holding many more law and medical degrees than previous generations.

    Also, their male friends have been raised by mothers and grandmothers who fought the good fight and these men are fully prepared to support their female friends in this never ending battle. One doesn’t have to explain anything to them … they get it.

  32. Tnx SwM.

    After Roe v Wade ruling, how can states keep challenging or try to restrict it? If is is not broad enough, surely these other wider stretching state acts cand be put down and establish precedent.

    PS Aren’t IUDs used in America? They are cheap, at least here. One time insertion. Finito.

  33. I mean really. people. What kind of nuthouse do you have over there.

    Two years(?) after Citizens United, which legislature challenges that? Noooooonnnnneeee.

    40 (?) years after Roe v Wade, practically every place is doing it. Do we also have municipal zoning ordinances restricting establishment too?

    What counts over there? Money? Power? Yead, we know.

    But Sct rulings are weird as to being subject to constant challenges on one grounds and not on the other.

  34. Idealist I found this:

    The Bible has always regarded abortion – killing the child in the womb as murder, a crime punishable by the death penalty. The grounds for this judgment are “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex.20:13); Child Sacrifice, “he shall surely be put to death” (Leviticus 20:1-5); and Exodus 21:22-23, where an example of abortion is found:

    “If men strive, and hurt a women with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life” (Ex.21:22-23).
    In Exodus 21: 22-23, the Bible sets forth a minimal case with larger implications for justice to be served by the civil authorities:
    (1.) “If men strive… .”
    The plural “men” is employed for the purpose of speaking indefinitely, because there might possibly be more than one person involved in causing injury.

    (2.) “So that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow… .”
    An example of a premature birth. Even if no injury results to either mother or child, the man who causes the “premature birth” is liable to be fined and, in fact, must be fined. The Bible strongly protects the pregnant mother and her child, so that every pregnant mother has a strong hedge of legal protection around her.

    (3.) “And if mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life… .”
    An example of accidental abortion. If the penalty for an “accidental abortion” is so severe, it’s obvious that a deliberately induced abortion is strongly forbidden. It is not necessary to have a separate ban on any form of deliberate abortion since the maximum penalty is served by this statute. If man through his own reckless actions, unintentionally hurts a pregnant mother and causes her to abort a child, he must suffer the death penalty. How much more so for any person who intentionally induces an abortion?

    (4.) “if any mischief follow… give life for life.”
    The Bible strongly protects human life from the moment of conception. With the phrase “if any mischief follow,” the child has equal protection under the law from the moment of conception “life for life.”

    God does not make exceptions that tolerate injury to any pregnant mother, or any child in the womb. In fact CURSES “come upon” and “overtake” nations that refuse to administer justice (Deut. 28:15).

    If God does not tolerate exceptions to the administration of justice concerning murder by abortion, then neither should His people.

    Seems it is mostly assumption and interpretation.

  35. and here is the other side of it from
    The ones I checked ot make it appear G-d uses abortion as a punishment but he uses it.

    The Bible approves of killing pregnant women: Genesis 38:24, Numbers 31:17

    The Bible approves of abortion: 2 Kings 15:16

    God approves of abortion: Hosea 13:15-16

    People are not counted as persons until they are a month old: Numbers 3:15

    The Bible contains directions on how to abort any pregnancy caused by adultery: Numbers 5:12-31

    The Bible says that being aborted is better than living a bad life: Ecclesiastes 6:3-5, Matthew 26:24

    The Bible says that a person becomes a living soul when he BREATHES the BREATH of life into his nostril (fetuses don’t breathe): Genesis 2:7

    Jesus (as a Jew), probably believed that “life” began at birth, as explained in the Old Testament. There is no biblical support for an “anti-choice” position. Have you read your bible?

    Here’s what your Bible actually says about abortion:

    Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life:

    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. — Exodus 21:22-23

    The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old:

    And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. — Leviticus 27:6

    Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons:

    Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. — Numbers 3:15-16

    God sometimes approves of killing fetuses:

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. — Numbers 31:15-17
    (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

    Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. — Hosea 9:14

    Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. — Hosea 9:16

    Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. — Hosea 13:16

    God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents:

    Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. — 2 Samuel 12:14

    God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives:

    The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. …
    And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. — Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

    God’s law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women:

    Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. — Genesis 38:24

  36. SWM, my mother had to go before a male judge with no medical background (assumedly) and lay bare her medical and psychiatric history to get permission for an abortion. She was given permission to do so.
    One sister went and got one illegally. Luckily she was able to get the $200.00 so she did not have to resort to a wire hanger or a dirty back alley.
    My other sister;s obgyn did not do abortions, this was in the 70’s I think, but she had had xrays of her back that were taken through the abdomen. They did not know she was 6 weeks pregnant. Her doctor insisted she have an abortion sending her to a doctor who did perform them. It is my understanding they refused to even tell her the sex of the fetus because the deformities, from the x-rays- were so horrendous they did not want to help her fantasize about what the baby might have become had it been allright.

    The idea of no abortion even when you may not even know yet is ridiculous.
    It seems to me this starts the slippery slope (well it is already here in other forms) where a woman cannot drink, smoke, take medications just in case she is pregnant, and could be fined or worse because of the potential injury to a potential fetus.

  37. To the Bedlar guy from outter space. The couple in the bathtub on the viagra commercial on television are in “AfterGlow”. That is a human thing where after they have sex they have to relax and enjoy what just happened. The television here is somewhat regulated by those guys in the pink caps who talk latin and have sex with male children. But that part is neigther here not there. The tv cannot depict the actual copulation because of the pink bennie guys in America and the tent heads or turbin heads in the muslim countries. Send that back to Remulak.

  38. leejcaroll 1, December 1, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    The church of eat, sleep, and be merry wake up married has gone into pontification mode following this prophet’s revelations:

    In an article for Charisma magazine, writer Cedric Harmon interviews a woman named Contessa Adams who claims that she was once possessed by sexual demons. Adams claims repeated attacks by a succubus — defined in the article as a female sexual demon that traditionally assaults men — made her contemplate becoming a lesbian.

    “Anybody that has been attacked by them will tell you … they’re worried [that] they could not find that pleasure with mortal people,” Adams, who claims to have “found Christ” in 1979, says. “Unless you’re strong enough to rebuke it, they’ll keep coming back. You must speak the Word of God, knowing you have power in the name of Jesus.”

    (Contessa Adams, Ex-Stripper Turned Ministry Leader, Claims Sex With Demons Causes Homosexuality). The great mystery being pondered is that if they don’t allow abortions in such a case, then the demons will reproduce and make wives of the priests!!!!

  39. rcampbell 1, December 1, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Dontcha love love the sick irony of man in dresses telling women——–anything?
    Good point.

    See my post just up-thread to leejcaroll on developing news in that regard.😉

  40. Talk about going to the ends of the earth (heck the universe) to find a way to denounce her unwanted thoughts of being with a woman. Wow.

  41. leej, @3:57. Nice gentle, loving God is he. I prefer the goddess. She allows us more independence and encourages cooperation.

  42. I think the outrageous laws are intended to start court action to overturn Roe v Wade. But action against legislators practicing medicine without a license doesn’t go after the abortion question.

  43. leejcaroll,

    Thanks. Did you read all that?

    What a painting of how it was. 5 shekels versus 3 shekels. Nothing if less than one month old. And the first interpretation was of course incorrectly understood.

    This is the flimsiest basis for persecution of women that I have ever seen. And all based starting with a love-bearing carpenter–if we believe in legends—who becomes a church led by sexually disturbed men who fulfill their lives by dominating others in the name of the holy muffin.
    The hóly muffin who won’t even show his face at noon just any old day that suits him to demonstrate his existence. What a weak-assed excuse in whose name that these modern men choose to do this.


    Prostate operations?! Cut it off, and then make ’em eat it and then cut their throats. Eugenics, you know. Don’t want that bad seed to propagate.

    I’ll save my question for the jews and how they got out of this nonsense, if they did, until another time.
    One battle at a time.

    Muslims later. At least Mhhmd said that women stood equal with men in the eyes of Allah. That men don’t observe this. is as usual.

  44. Idealist I converted from Judaism to Christianity. I figured f you could beloeve in something you could not really see, feel, or touch why wouldn;t you go all the way and include Jesus in that?
    My minister calls me the devil’s advocate: I tell her that as well as my idea that the crucifixation and Adam and Eve were put up job; without the first there is no christianity, without the second, no people.

  45. Sorry I’m late… I had a busy day today. Here’s what I have to say about this. First, What a shame that these uncaring lackeys of the church caused the death of this Innocent woman. It should be written into the Law, that when a Bishop makes this kind of decision, and it results in a death, that that then gets recognized as a murder!!! Until then, Irish Bishops… maybe all Bishops as a matter of fact.. should be restrained with their heads extended out over a bucket… at a guillotine site set up outside the hospital at each church controlled facility, so that, when they have the timerity to make such decisions, that then results in the deaths of innocent women… That they, will forfeit any” right to life” for themselves, if the mother dies. We must ‘put the fear of ghod’ into these monsters, who care little for their ‘Flock’ and much, much more for their church. They’re gotten away with way too much, for way too many years….

  46. I think in these cases the preferred method is called the “Santorum” (from the Latin meaning “squeeky-cleanish bullshit artist”). The method involves the family and doctor pretending a natural birth has taken place instead of an abortion. A full funeral and mass must also take place for the dead infant, but only after any siblings are freeked-out when their brother/sister is brought home (in vilation of the sinful local health laws) and hangs out for a few days. The “Santorum” will be a sort of analog to the “annulment” in the Catholic Church, wherein powerful and connected familys have always been able to get ride of unwanted spouses and at the same time retain their phony-bologna religeousity.

  47. Sorry Seamus… UNACCEPTABLE!!! We must tell the Horrible Catholic church to STFU!!!! And, to stop sticking their noses in places where they don’t belong…. Don’t you think the life of a 30 year old woman, with another child at home is more important than a fetus??? I do. Enough of all the church crap…. The church is bogus anyway… We’re living in the 21st century, now, not the 13th!

  48. Leejcaroll,

    What a nice surprise you sent me. Welcome to the forum of the discussion hungry.

    Your conversion was interesting. Do explain more.

    Many explanations the the appearance of Jesus coming just then are offered for historical reasons, propheted, longed after under Roman dominance, etc.

    We can call him the poster child offering a softer version of judaism and supposedly to win the war for jewry against its persecutors and a thousand years of peace followed by ?????.

    But all of what stands in the NT can be doubted as to any basis in actual events or of originating in the mouth of Christ.

    The Christians debate and debate just as the jews do at the Yeshiva, and other gatherings. And the Christian debate seems to get no closer to the spirit of humanity—-however we interpret that to be.

    Why should a devil’s advocate such as you are named leave jewry? Are woman not permitted to debate? Just as they are formally denied by the skirt wearing priests of Catholicism.

    My attitude to religious writings of all faiths is that if it is the word of God, then nothing need be added. If it is added to, then it is but the work of man. A shame that the jews lost the Mosaic tablets along the way from Sinai. The muslims have the haddith, etc and the jews have the Talmud, in all its many volumes. And the whole of the NT is but a construction by men. No more than that.

    Now after all this babble, I must soon beddybye.

    Looking forward to more from you, whenever…..!

  49. Idealist, it was not a conversion arising from a lot of research and reading, etc. It truly was – if you can believe in G-d then it seemed to follow, to me, you might as well believe in Jesus. Trying to find a good analogy; maybe – if you have cake in front of you and ice cream in the freezer you might as well go all the way and add the ice cream to the cake. (;
    (I also found much more solace offered from the Church (although I was abused emotionally and verbally in my first church by the minister, and I was not the only one). Each time I was in the hospital for my (neuro)surgeries I asked to see a rabbi, because I was totally alone, my family having abandoned me years before (TMI but seems relevant). A rabbi never came but invariably a minister did. Even after I said I was jewish they would say that does not matter, I will come back to see you agai, and they did.
    My experience with rabbis and sunday school (on Saturday morning of course) and a lack of connection to the religion, and the synagogu,e probably helped to move me forward; but there was no one Aha moment.

    As for the debate, once I was confirmed, at age 16, meaning the end of Sunday School, absent the High Holy Days I had no relationship with either a synagogue or Judaism. (We used to have a christmas tree and my mother and I went to xmas eve candlelight services. I was the only one in the family who knew the prayer over the menorah lighting. Chanuhak was the lighting each night but Christmas Eve and Christmas were the real days of celebration.
    My mother made sedar for Passover and we looked for the afikomen, did the questions, etc but the real fun was the coloring and finding of easter eggs, full easter baskets, and a nice ham dinner.
    I always have told people we were the least jewish you could be and still be able to call yourself jewish.

  50. Idiots.

    It is irrelevant what any Church or any religious group has to say about the case of Mrs. Savita Halappanavar.

    The only thing that matters here is the legislation governing what doctors may and may not do.

    Doctors want to save lives not let sick people wither away . But when the law prevents them from clearly and unambiguously being able to do what they want to do they are rightly not going to risk prosecution, a jail sentence, loss of the right to practice and loss of livelihood and family.

    You would not either if you were put in their precarious postition. If you take a punt and end up being prosecuted just watch as you are thrown to the wolves and left on your own to fight the system. Well. er …. no thanks it is not a casino.

    The problem is not with the doctors and the health system or the churches or religious groups but with the law. The POLITICIANS – full stop- make the laws not the doctors or the churches or anyone else.

    If the gutless politicians (you would not feed most of them) were to enact laws to clearly enable doctors to carry out procedures that would save the lives of people in the same or similar situation as Mrs. Savita Halappanavar then there would be no issue here.

    As the problem lies fairly and squarely with the LAWMAKERS, that is what all the discussion should be all about here and nothing else.

    Doctors need unambiguous laws under which to operate otherwise, as you would, they are forced to take a cautious line.

    Get it now do you?

  51. Lawmakers are pressured by the religious to pass these laws. they cannot be divorced so easily.
    The people are also pressured by the power of the ‘Church’

  52. Remember, the church WAS the government until very recently.
    Just because we say it ain’t so don’t mean it don’t be so.

  53. The church must be stripped of its power, when they use that power destructively…… First thing to do is ; Start Taxing the churches, as they’ve just started doing in Italy. If the church wants to have a say in the affairs of humans, let THEM pay their fair share…. of else keep your opinions to yourself!

  54. Is there a correlation between pink beanies and pedophilia? We had a dog named Ophelia who came from the home of a former pedophile priest. She says that only the priest part is in the past tense. I dont know what Ophelia meant by that but she said that the house had a lot of prayer and a lot of kids.

  55. Let me get this right… We’re supposed to consider this author “rational” when he debates the tragic death of an Indian woman by referring to the “clan of the red beanie”? Maybe he should consider the impact of his hatred on his own ability to be rational. This article is full of falsehoods, including the statement that abortion would have saved this dear woman from sepsis. Carry on in your fruitless hatred or learn the FACTS.

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