There is a disturbing report out of Chicago where police were called when 95-year-old world War II veteran John Wrana refused to go to a hospital for a urinary tract infection. Called by paramedics to assist in getting Wrana into an ambulance, the Park Forest police showed up in riot gear and proceeded to shoot Wrana first with a stun gun and then with a bead bag fired from a shotgun. He no longer needed treatment for the urinary tract problem. He died from internal bleeding and blunt force trauma. He was about to celebrate his 96th birthday.
Wrana was reportedly frail and had difficulty walking. We have previously discussed other cases involving the killing of a bedridden elderly woman and an unarmed suicide case. The cases raise serious questions of the rapid escalation of such cases in the level of force used by police as well as the increasing use of “non-lethal devices” as a first response to threats.
Wrana was living in an assisted-living facility. Paramedics told police that he was threatening them with a metal shoehorn and a knife. Some reports indicate that Wrana had decided that he did not want to go through an operation. That may have been the reason why he was resisting. He said that he understood that not having the operation could kill him but decided against it. It is not clear whether he was declared incompetent before the attempt to force him to go to the hospital.
The family contests the claim of the knife. Even if he had a knife, it is hard to see why police could not stand back (particularly since they had riot shields) and avoid using such force on an individual who clearly would be a risk with either a stun gun or bean bag round. Even if the blunt trauma did not finish him off, the shock could easily trigger a heart attack in a near 96 year old man. Some reports indicate that multiple rounds of bean bags may have been used.
Wrana was U.S. Air Corps veteran who served in Burma and India during World War II. Sergeant Wrana survived the hellish fighting in Burma but would later die in the United States just short of this 96 birthday in a confrontation with police. Truly bizarre.
Just for the record. These bean bag rounds are often thought of as harmless, almost toy-like devices. The bean bags fired form a shotgun will initially travel at around 300-400 feet a second (though they have a range of 70 feet). They have been shown to break ribs and even push broken ribs into the heart. Internal bleeding is a well-known risk.
Darren Smith,
I seen some loose FBI or DOJ stats the other day the AP put out.
Chiraq/Chicago is now the murder capital of the world. I think it’s a complete gun free zone. NYistan is #2.
AP gave no numbers but said across the South violent crimes continues to drop. Guns everywhere down here.
I’m sure one of reasons is a large number of youth & no opportunities for employment with no in home fathers to help guide them in Chicago.
In most all of the US most of us are over fifty & are not out running the streets at night, etc.
In 2 or 3 years it will be over 50% of the USA will be over 50.
š Another report I think said Adult Diapers are hitting around $4.7 billion a year globally.
With the Texas Tower incident armed citizens I believe were 1st on the scene & along with a few police rushed the guy.
It was later found out the guy had a brain tumor that mostly likely made him nuts.
It appears at the Naval yard shooting the SWAT team was ordered to stand down.
( I hate commenting on an issue just from news reports & until the dust has settled as details are always murky.)
Yes, the North Hollywood Shootout & the govt starting/suppling the drug war changed the publics & many in LE’s view.
I find an interesting way to look at some of these issues is the story of the rescue of US/foreign workers by Ross Perot’s people back during the Iranian hostage crises.
The rescuers knew if they had weapons on them they’d mostly end up in a shoot so they intentional went in unarmed.
The video interview I heard they said later that being unarmed & luck was the only reason they made it out because they were forced to use their wit.
But you have a very valid point about your own career & being out in the middle of no where.
That’s one of the biggest reasons I support the 2nd amd. I’ve known older people that live out away from the cities & even the ones in town are not as able to say fist fight any more to defend themselves & the police are 15-30-minutes away.
I’m not sure of the history of how people policed the states/nation as it started. I remember reading for a very long time every male of age was required to join the local militia, which I guess was run by the sheriff?
What I do know is that the citizens & the police today have to have confidence & trust in each other & the move towards militarizing the police across the nation hasn’t helped goal.
I see most of the reasons for crime is the criminality that comes directly out of actions/policies of Wallst,DC & the State house.
That we should 1st fight the criminals at the top of the food chain & that would likely decrease the crime at the bottom of the food chain.
Getting rid of the poisons out of the air/water/food/meds would likely reduce the numbers of nuts running around.
IE: The Naval Yard shooter, Colorado Movie Shooter, etc…, most of them on big pharma, doc prescribed, meds.
Hopefully some of craziness has peaked.
Below: Tulsa PD successfully deal with another wacko. God knows what the lunatic was on.
http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/police-pepper-spray-armed-belligerent-naked-man-ea/nZ2R4/
I can not believe this one, goes to show you how bad the world is now. Cops are out of control and need to put behind bars for this one.
“Cops are out of control””
i don’t always blame individual officers. Sometime I agree that it is inappropriate to second guess LE who have to make decisions too rapidly with too little information.
But Some where we took a wrong turn.
We have been arming are training LE to respond like light infantry. And now they are demonstrating the results of that training.
Some events cry out for citizens to make clear that something is terribly wrong and demand change.
This is one of those cases.
These piece of crap cops need to spend the rest of their lives in PRISON!!!!!
I feel almost guilty. Our local fire and rescue came out and familiarized themselves with my home, exits, etc. since I have MS and fall often. Those falls can be dangerous if I hit my head. They told me while I was saying, I hate to call you guys when all I need is something sturdy to pull myself up with and I don’t have anything, and they told me about the old lady. She calls about once a month and they go out, with a blanket. The guy with the blanket is the one who knocks, and when she comes to the door, he gently wraps her in it because she comes to the door completely undressed. They all go in then, and let her pour coffee for them and serve them whatever she’s baked that day. He said, we know that she’ll come to the door like that, so we’re ready. And we’ll always go, because one of these days, she won’t come to the door. That’s our job. And honestly, do you know in the first few minutes after a fall how badly you’re hurt. I acknowledged that I don’t. I’m not doing inventory. I’m trying to get up. He said right. But do this for us. Don’t try to get up. Just push the button on your cell phone and we’ll come every time. We’ll make sure you don’t have a back or neck injury before we move you, and based on what you can tell us about the fall, we may just put you on a backboard and neck collar and transfer you to the city ambulance so you can get X-rays. Maybe 50 times the X-rays will be clear. But that one time that they’re not, you’ll be glad we always answer and we’re so careful, because if we had moved you that time, with a spinal injury, we would have crippled you for life. It’s our job to answer. We never mind. I’m lucky. I have compassionate men and women listening to me and understanding how much pride gets whacked in those falls. And they understand an old lady who gets lonely and isn’t very good at making those judgment calls most of us can. They don’t commit her; she’s capable of living alone. They just take a blanket and are glad when she answers the door.
pretty sad when a police officer is so weak that a 96 year old man is such a threat. Even if he had a knife a 96 years old man would not be able to hurt them with the shields they had. If I were one of those cops I would be looking over my should for the rest of my life waiting for retaliation from someone. such a state the world is in.
Those cops won’t get shit, but a slap on the wrist. Like suspended WITH pay!! I’ll tell ya this….if that was my 96yr old father…those cops would be paying BIG TIME. But they don’t give to shit’s. TO SERVE AND PROTECT!! This man was to be respected…not killed. Such BS!!
Reblogged this on J Newsome and commented:
Honestly, this is absolutely horrid and unacceptable. This is just straight up wrong.
My heart goes out to the family. How tragic. What idiots. I hope they are fired and put up against the wall and had those bean bag shots fired at them.
OK1
In the Mid 80’s I participated in studies of whether it was feasible to convert patrol units in America to model those of general English patrol units, that is not carrying firearms except for special units that had to be called .Similar to what you are describing.
The conclusion of that study was the due to the historical and prevalent ownership by both law abiding citizens, criminals, and the propensity for some in our culture to resort to firearms easily it was decided that more officers would be killed in the line of duty and the suggestion that criminals would not arm themselves because there was no need since the police did not carry firearms was wishful thinking at best.
The outcome was that police should be better trained in the use of the firearms as to accuracy and when or when not to use them.
A few years after that study, more and more events began happening that convinced the administrations of various police agencies was the police were being outgunned by heavily armed criminals. There had been incidents in the 1970s and 1960 such as the Texas Tower incident but they were beginning to fade from memory.
The North Hollywood Shootout really showed some glaring holes in equipment police carried. And after that and some other incidents have caused many departments to add more rifles and such to prevent things from getting out of hand. For a while a sort of arms race was developing where police units were seeing how much budget they could get to mitigate these threats.
How necessary any of this is controversial even among police groups. But there is a saying that it’s better to have it and not use it than to need it and not have it.
As for your suggestion for having supervisors possibly carry the rifles or higher force weapons and drive them to the scene. That is one way of doing it, but the main drawback to this is time. Something can go bad very quickly and time can be not on your side. For people who work alone in outlying areas it is unworkable. Myself, the district I was assigned in the county was 600 square miles and I was almost always the only deputy working it. So in that sense I generally had equipment with me.
What kills me is why the police officers when they shoot someone they aim to the chest or the head? why can’t shoot the person in the legs at least he can stay alive. We need gun control from the police. they are killing citizen for no reason. This is abuse of power, elimination. the men survive two wars and got killed because he refuse to go to the hospital. they have no right to force him to do anything he does not want to do. In this situation, sedation can gets him help not the gun. I am SICK OF THEIR BEHAVIOR, we need reform.
How many people have to die from non-lethal devices before they get reclassified to lethal devices?
I think it’s time for all police officers to undergo training for the elderly. You can’t handle them like you would handle a young 20+ old person. What they don’t realize is that a lot of elderly people sometimes have issues with memory loss and will fight you b/c they think your out to hurt them. The best thing to do in that situation is back off for a while and let them calm down, then try to rationalize with them again. I don’t understand why a police officer would even want to use a stun gun on a elderly person, they can’t move if you get out of their way. The police force better be glad it wasn’t my dad…I would pin them to the wall so quick and have all their jobs. Police are just to quick to use force on people, maybe stun guns should not be the first choice, especially with older people.
Lisa,
15-20 years ago people would have thought I was foolish for suggesting that patrolmen/swat should not be allowed to carry any other weapons other then night stick.
That or a gun with only one bullet.
All other firearms/bullets should be held by the Captain & only issued to the patrolmen on his orders.
Removing their weapons will force them to use their brain to find solutions to the situation.
Another way is to just take all the police’s weapons & leave the citizens as the only ones armed.
If the patrolman needs a weapon he has to ask a citizen to help him.
The trouble with that is most citizens are to lazy to assume responsibility for policing their state/nation.
There are two stories here:
One is the use of outlandish police force which dovetails nicely with the increase of stories concerning the rise of SWAT team/ militarized police forces across the country.
The second, less overt, is the story of forced medical treatment, which precipitated the unfolding of events ( but by no means justifies the force used by police). The article in Chicago Times and this blog does not have enough information provided or known, to determine whether the vet was declared incompetent, legally, to make his own medical decisions, or if his family members or someone else had guardianship. UTI’s often cause mental confusion. Who determined that he needed to seek hospitalization for treatment of such ? What is the facilities legal responsibility in all this?
ospreysun hit the mark… just like with the recent football player who was shot and killed. He had his hands out stretched in front of him showing he had nothing. Trying to get help (he was injured in a car accident) shot and killed. If they would pause and think instead of shoot. No weapon now what do I do? Instead of KILL KILL KILL!!! What strength does this 95yo have over a young cop who has been trained to take away a weapon. No common sense on anyone’s part complete breakdown. sure he was going to die. but didn’t need to die this way.
The facility has to take some ownership too! The resident has rights that obviously were ignored based on the article. He has the right to refuse an operation…how about some Ativan to calm him down and some Cipro for the UTI! This unfortunate incident starts with the facility failing to either have or follow proper protocol to subdue this man!
testing
What Mike A. said, in boldface, underlined and followed by a grammatically inappropriate number of exclamation points.
And what OS said, RWL. As one who has studied Aikido, I’d just like to say “Ewwwwww!” Seagal gives a wonderful martial art – which I might add is one of the few that has a truly structured philosophical and ethical component to it that is ultimately non-violent and required in the training – a very bad name. However, if it came down to no other choice than a physical confrontation with a 95 year old man (and I do mean NONE – bfm’s “wait him out” tactic would have been my first avenue aside from talking him down), he could have been disarmed with relatively minimal risk to either party. It would be far easier and less risk than disarming a child even. I say this as someone who has disarmed physically healthy young adults with knives twice before (one man, one woman – although I disarmed the man with a piece of 2×4, only the woman was strictly hand to hand) and when left with no other option – a considerably more dangerous proposition. It’s only something you do when absolutely necessary and, yes, it carries some risk, but the risk posed by a sick 95 year old man is primarily to himnot from him. The joint lock techniques will make him drop the weapon, but at his age, simply using any of them on him runs a huge risk of breaking bones even under the most controlled circumstance and the tissue trauma is likely to be severe and difficult to recover from at his age and in bad health to begin with. But he would have survived. The bottom line here is that any scenario where physical measures beyond basic self-defense techniques becomes necessary and therefor reasonable is almost impossible to imagine. And I have a really good imagination. In my opinion, this was a gross and negligent overreaction by the so-called LE professionals.
I agree with WALDO, fourth email from the top.
What a shame, prayers for the family š
It is Chicago (area). Are the police taking lessons from criminals? Who was the idiot at the assisted living center who called the police?