Submitted by Elaine Magliaro, Weekend Contributor
Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher and scofflaw, was hailed by some people as a folk hero and patriot recently when he—and his followers–engaged in a standoff with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Caty Enders (Esquire) described the scene in Bunkerville, Nevada, as pundits and politicians descended on the Bundy camp last week “to throw in their American flag hats with the BLM protestors.” She said that a FOX News van had been parked by the side of the road for days—and that “militia snipers kept a trained watch” up on a ridge “as Bundy held court.” She added that disciples of Bundy came from far and wide “to share their personal theories as to why the government was enforcing a court order.”
Bundy has had a number of advocates who have spoken in support of his militant stance against the BLM. Those advocates included some prominent politicians and members of the media. Sean Hannity was one of Bundy’s biggest boosters and helped to make him into a folk hero. Hannity talked with Bundy on a number of occasions on his Fox News show. Joan Walsh (Salon) asked a pertinent question about Bundy on Friday: “How does a guy who declared early on ‘I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing’ become a folk hero in the first place?” She said that both Hannity and Fox News should have realized that the Nevada rancher was “too toxic” prior to his “ongoing self-exposure as a racist.” She added that the extremism of Bundy’s statement about the US government “should have been warning enough that Bundy was not only crazy but dangerous…”
Enders posed a question that was in the same vein as Walsh’s: “Exactly how difficult was it, though, to determine pretty early on that Bundy and his followers were using the threat of force to back up some terrifyingly misguided beliefs?” Enders provided some insight into the thinking and beliefs of Bundy and disciples of his with whom she talked.
Members of the Bundy Brigade Speak Out
Enders spoke to a militia member named Mark who was affiliated with the Oath Keepers group. Mark explained to her “the truth behind public land management.” He said, “The assumption is that the BLM is part of the federal government. But we need to check the facts on that one. The BLM doesn’t work for the government: they work for the United Nations. They might as well be wearing blue helmets. If we find out there’s money being exchanged between Harry Reid and the Chinese government, no one should be surprised.”
Another Bundy disciple told Enders that “Bar-certified lawyers, like the ones who prosecuted Bundy, have sworn loyalty to the British government, whose statutes encourage sex with clients. ‘That’s what they do with all their clients.’”
Enders spent time talking to a former cop who chuckled as he related a story about one of his buddies who once worked as a sheriff in New Mexico. He said his buddy got into some trouble after he pulled over a group of illegals one night. He said his pal “didn’t have room to haul ‘em all, so he put a chain around their neck and put a padlock through it, went to the next one, then he chained ‘em to a tree!” Enders said that the former cop then buckled with laughter as he told her how his friend “left ‘em and went to town to get his pickup to haul ‘em all back in. So, you might imagine, that didn’t play well — ha! You’re a young’un, but everything wasn’t against the law, way back when.” The former cop also told Enders that it was now being proved that the Bureau of Land management was acting on orders “from Troy and Harry Reid, who want to build a solar farm on the land — or a wind farm.”
One of Bundy’s disciples drove a beige sedan covered with the following message:
IF YOU WERE BORN IN 1980 AND AFTER. YOU MAY BE IMPLANTED WITH A GOVERNMENT MICROCHIP WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE: GOOGLE DOCTORS THAT REMOVE MICROCHIPS.
Cliven Bundy, God’s Messenger
During the time that Enders spent at the Bundy camp, she witnessed one of the public addresses the Nevada rancher made to his followers. She said that as Bundy—who had just been given a standing ovation—took the stage, he didn’t seem pleased. She said that Bundy reproached the crowd “for failing to follow the word of God – to the letter …”— which he claimed was being “delivered through him.” He wasn’t happy that his supporters failed “to follow his instructions to tear down the toll booths at Lake Mead and disarm the Park Service.” Bundy added, “The message I gave to you all was a revelation that I received. And yet not one of you can seem to even quote it.” He continued, “The records of our bible — how long have they been kept? Thousands of years. They’ve been turned over generation after generation, buried, and all kinds of things happen to ‘em. And yet, here, something I felt was inspired [by God] and yet we haven’t even carried it forth for even a couple of days. Shame on us.”
Bundy expressed frustration because his followers hadn’t been able to deter the BLM “within an hour”—“as the revelation had prophesied.” When an hour had passed, Bundy reportedly got into his bulldozer and decided to march on the BLM himself. His dozer got stuck in the mud—and that led to Bundy’s receiving yet another revelation: “It come to my mind real plain — the good Lord said, ‘Bundy, it’s not your job, it’s THEIR job.’” Bundy reiterated that revelation a little differently in an effort to ensure that his followers understood what he had just told them, “This is not my job, it’s YOUR job.”
Bundy said that he received a message that morning after he prayed. He claimed that he heard a voice say, “Sheriff Gillespie, your work is not done. Every sheriff across the United States, take the guns away from the United States bureaucrats.”
Uncivil Disobedience
Even The Weekly Standard–as well as Glenn Beck–has been critical of Cliven Bundy. The magazine’s Scrapbook explained the whole Bundy situation with regard to grazing fees and court rulings. The Scrapbook said that what had transpired over the years didn’t sound “like the dread hand of tyranny, in Nevada or Washington, oppressing an innocent farmer, or pushing some law-abiding citizen around.” It said it sounded, instead, “like a rancher gaming the system to his own financial advantage, and disguising his scheme in populist rhetoric: refusing to pay a tax which others must pay, and ‘tying up the courts’—for two decades!—as he continues to ignore the law.”
The Weekly Standard:
Far from acting in an arbitrary or capricious manner, the federal government has shown patience and forbearance in the face of lawlessness that customarily lands people in jail. It is worth noting that Bundy’s rancher-neighbors and the Nevada Cattlemen’s Association, who contend with the same federal policies, offer him little support.
Apocalypse Cow – Welfare Rancher, Part 1 (The Daily Show)
Apocalypse Cow – Welfare Rancher, Part 2 (The Daily Show)
SOURCES
Fox News’ new laughingstock: Cliven Bundy — and Stephen Colbert — will destroy Sean Hannity (Salon)
Uncivil Disobedience (The Weekly Standard)
The views expressed in this posting are the author’s alone and not those of the blog, the host, or other weekend bloggers. As an open forum, weekend bloggers post independently without pre-approval or review. Content and any displays or art are solely their decision and responsibility.
Does anyone know the difference between a moocher and a lazy moocher? Is the latter rocking on his/her Lazy Boy? 🙂
Elaine,
You’re breaking my heart! William Kristol being reasonable? I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole.
hskiprob
“As a realtor, I get to speak to a lot of people and I find very few people who are happy with the direction this country is going.”
That is utter nonsense and totally false. As a realtor, you do not get to speak to a lot of people in order to survive and babble your own opinions or it seems honesty is not your forte,simply put. As a realtor, you have no other choice but to agree with your potential buyers no matter what their political leanings may be in order to put food on your table. You are fooling no one here except yourself. And give me the proof about your 2/3rd agreeing with you. Freud may have an answer for your dreams. 🙂
hskiprob
“Elaine, It just seems to me that almost every single thing you post is pro government despite all the evidence of the massive levels of corruption that goes on behind the scenes.”
*****
Tell me if you think that the following articles that I wrote or submitted for this blog are pro government–and then get back to me.
President Obama Trying to “Fast Track” the Trans-Pacific Partnership—a Trade Pact That Could Be Worse Than NAFTA
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/09/28/president-obama-trying-to-fast-track-the-trans-pacific-partnership-a-trade-pact-that-could-be-worse-than-nafta/
Promises, Promises: Is the Obama DOJ Going after Whistleblowers?
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/03/06/promises-promises-is-the-obama-doj-going-after-whistleblowers/
How about Some Government Propaganda for the People Paid for by the People Being Propagandized?
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/20/how-about-some-government-propaganda-for-the-people-paid-for-the-people-being-propagandized/
Investigators Find No Direct Link Between Bradley Manning and Julian Assange
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/27/investigators-find-no-direct-link-between-bradley-manning-and-julian-assange/
Bradley Manning: The Forgotten Person in the Wikileaks Affair
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/12/18/bradley-manning-the-forgotten-person-in-the-wikileaks-affair/
Ron Paul Speaks about Wikileaks on the Floor of the House
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/12/11/ron-paul-speaks-about-wikileaks-on-the-floor-of-the-house/
Just Fine: Don’t Bank on the Justice Department to Prosecute Big Banks
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/24/just-fine-dont-bank-on-the-justice-department-to-prosecute-big-banks/
Securities and Exchange Commission Accused of Shredding Investigation Documents for Nearly Twenty Years
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/08/21/securities-and-exchange-commission-accused-of-shredding-investigation-documents-for-nearly-twenty-years/
Business As Usual: What the Collapse of MF Global Reveals about Financial Reform in the USA
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/12/18/business-as-usual-what-the-collapse-of-mf-global-reveals-about-financial-reform-in-the-usa/
Going Postal in Washington, D. C.: The USPS, the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006, Union Busting, and Paving the Road to Privatization
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/05/06/going-postal-in-washington-d-c-the-usps-the-postal-accountability-and-enhancement-act-of-2006-union-busting-and-paving-the-road-to-privatization/
The Rise of “Debtors’ Prisons” in the US
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/04/07/the-rise-of-debtors-prisons-in-the-us/
Obama’s NSA State of the Union: A Political Cartoon Video
http://jonathanturley.org/2014/02/09/obamas-nsa-state-of-the-union-a-political-cartoon-video/
United States of Surveillance: A Political Cartoon Video
http://jonathanturley.org/2014/02/16/united-states-of-surveillance-a-political-cartoon-video/
Elaine M. – My humblest apologies. With all that knowledge you’re still leaning to the left? You still have faith in government to do what is in the best interest of the majority? lol
As you have seen the left/right linear spectrum an graph is a poor way of showing one’s political perspective, so I apologize for that as well.
So if you’re the dictator, which current functions of government would you abolish, improve or add?
hskiprob predictably ignores what I just said.
“To show that democracy is a fallacy”
Apparently you don’t know what fallacy means.
“all one must do is talk to the average person on the street about the effects of government economic policy on society”
Because the average person on the street is the same person who goes to congress and represents us when they make laws? I think my right wing Representative knows more about economics than the average person. He just happens to be wrong.
“Thinking that because libertarians do not garner very much support, it is therefore not the best system, would place you in the category of those who are manipulated and brainwashed by the main stream media into believing such lies.”
Sentence structure… translating…
I don’t think Libertarians not garnering much support is proof that their political philosophy is faulty. And I didn’t say that. [side bar: why do people love straw men so much? Because they burn brightly!]
I think people don’t vote for you because your philosophy is anarchy and most of you are right wing economically. Your answers are glib and ignore reality. You are often cruel and don’t care how much pain would be caused by your drowning government in a bathtub. We don’t want to be left suing in local courts owned by fracking companies when they poison our wells.
I’m what could be technically referred to as a left libertarian. I don’t like the government spying on us, for example. Since 70% of Democrats voted against renewing the patriot act, and only 14% of Republicans did, I vote for the progressive democrats who voted against it.
How about you?
I also agree with most libertarians on the drug war, on work being the best way out of poverty, on not rigging markets. I don’t like cost-shifting of negative externalities. These things are all libertarian things, but I combine them with my left wing desire for a strong, and relatively fraud free, safety net. I’m also left wing in the idea that we should run deficits when money is cheap and people need work by investing in things that make us smarter and more productive, like NASA, and education, and infrastructure.
See how that works?
I never called anyone a “lazy moocher.” That is a lie.
hskiprob
“despite all the evidence of the massive levels of corruption that goes on behind the scenes”
Says who? Bill O’Reilly? Rush Limbaugh?
Please provide sources for anything you say is a fact.
“fair and balance assessment ”
Almost verbatum from Fox!
“instead basically ratfcuted the rancher”
I’m unfamiliar with this term. What did Elaine do to the guy who is making money off the US Taxpayer?
“I think if you laid all the facts out on the table, I believe 2/3s of the people in this country would side with the rancher. ”
Well, then, why don’t you lay out the facts?
And agree with him on what? That he should be able to make the US government take care of the land and not charge him anything for grazing on it? Or that black people would be happier as slaves?
“When this many people go in opposition to the police force, they generally do not do so with out great conviction and reservation. Should our founding fathers have protected against the Crown?”
Washington crushed the Whiskey Rebellion.
“As a realtor, I get to speak to a lot of people and I find very few people who are happy with the direction this country is going.”
Well, that’s certainly a scientific poll.
“And when I do find someone, they appear to be the few who are well off under the current system.”
You mean, like, they work for the heavily subsidized oil industry? Or Wall Street?
“I keep saying this but with 48 million people on food stamps, we obviously, just from this statistic alone, have a huge problem.”
Our huge problem is people throwing numbers around that they have no idea what they’re talking about. For example, do you know how many people on food stamps work? Do you realize that since we don’t adjust for inflation, the minimum wage gets smaller every year? Do you realize that because we help feed Walmart and McDonald’s workers, but not Costcos or In-n-outs, that we are giving those companies an unfair advantage on the taxpayer’s dime?
Or do you just want to end the SNAP program?
“We libertarians told our fellow Citizens 40+ years ago that what is happening today was going to happen and why.”
Really? Show me where. And, apparently, since we can’t agree on what’s happening, you can just say whatever you want and believe it’s true. Who cares whether it really is or not?
“We even published a game plan to slowly change the course.”
What plan? Eliminate government? Let the Free market do everything? Gee, seems like Ronald Reagan took a hard right economically in this country and the result, 32 years later, is stagnant middle incomes that departed from their share of productivity growth EXACTLY when Reagan took office.
Think that’s a coincidence? Think Reagan’s not far right enough?
“But the country did not listen and continued to listen to the oligarchs and the main stream media instead.”
Yeah, Ronald Maximus Reagan, the oligarch. Doing everything Milton Freedman said he should do. Bust unions. Cut safety nets. Deregulate markets.
ALL things Glibertarians support.
“Now we have a country that is at odds to such a degree, that people are literally drawing lines in the sand. Is that what you all want?”
GENIUS! Really. I love it. Completely ignores all the lines you just drew in the sand. And, honestly, why should we be drawing lines. You just insinuated that a bunch of lazy parasites are sucking off the government teat without realizing that it ain’t the people on food stamps that are getting all that sweet milk.
Just amazing. Damn right I want to draw a line in the sand right in front of you and dare you to cross it. See how you do in elections where you go around saying half the country are a bunch of lazy parasites.
Scott Supak (@ssupak) To show that democracy is a fallacy, all one must do is talk to the average person on the street about the effects of government economic policy on society. Thinking that because libertarians do not garner very much support, it is therefore not the best system, would place you in the category of those who are manipulated and brainwashed by the main stream media into believing such lies.
Or you can read this Princeton Univ. study: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/harrietrobbins/9Fx8TwYU0OY
Oops. That was the OASI trust. The DI trust avg benefit is 1,220.72.
Here’s the benefits award averaging page from SS:
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/awards.html
Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI) Trust Fund and the Disability Insurance (DI) Trust Fund.
For 2013:
Retired workers & dependents, Retired worker, Average amount: $1,330.34
Lucky ducky parasites, collecting what they paid into all their working lives.
Anonymously posted
Well if she does I think I will send her $50 bucks. Not only will the primary season prove very entertaining (if the Republicans will allow any debates), but if she wins the nomination I am assured that the Dems will win.
hskiprob
“There is a great deal of difference between a right wing fascist and a libertarian. There is also a great deal of difference between a left wing socialist and a libertarians, however there is not so much difference though between a left wing socialist and a right wing fascist”
I find it really funny how Libertarians often get this confused.
Usually when we look at political science these days, we put up an x-y axis. This is what the people at politicalcompass.org do. Go take the test if you haven’t before you read the rest of this, or you could skew your results.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
But the idea is that left and right on the x axis represents your position on economics, with extreme right being no safety net folks, and left being strong safety net folks, or, if you go farther to the left, REALLY strong safety net folks.
The y-axis is authoritarian (fascism) to the top, and libertarian (anarchism) to the bottom.
As they say on the analysis page:
“Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (ie the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. While the former involves state-imposed arbitrary collectivism in the extreme top left, on the extreme bottom left is voluntary collectivism at regional level, with no state involved.”
So, over on the top right you have Hitler (and Thatcher) and to the bottom right is Milton Freedman, while Stalin is at the top left, and Gandhi is down on the lower left, slightly further left than me.
The lower left is what we dirty hippies like to call left libertarianism. I generally prefer free markets that are well regulated so that the rich can’t cheat. I support a strong safety net, heavy investment in infrastructure that benefits us all, civil rights, civil liberties, less war and war machinery, and an end to the drug war.
To suggest that “There is also a great deal of difference between a left wing socialist and a libertarians” as you did is depends on what kind of leftist you’re talking about… An authoritarian leftist like Stalin, or a Libertarian leftist like Ghandi.
As for this: “there is not so much difference though between a left wing socialist and a right wing fascist” again, this would depend on what kind of socialist. One that wants the State to do it all, or one who wants a decentralized version at the local level. Very big difference.
And both of those are ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE–namely, the left side–while a right wing fascist (top right) IS ON THE RIGHT, not the left, economically speaking.
So, nice try with the Jonah Goldberg tactic of trying to make the argument that the liberals are the real fascists, which completely ignores the fact that there are left libertarians who vote for progressives precisely because they’re the opposite of fascist right wingers.
(BTW, you will see that Obama, Romney, Merkel, Harper, and Netanyahu are ALL in the upper right on the analysis page)
On the lower left we have Hollande very close to the center, the Dalai Lama, and Nelson Mandella.
Nick, as Annie says, moving the goal posts, Gish Galloping, appealing to authority (which someone told me wasn’t a fallacy… hilarious)…
“but depending on the job, you can live just as well as you can working”
Um, no, you can’t. The average SSD benefit is about $1200 if my memory serves, and please excuse me for not providing a source, but since you don’t, we’ll just play battle of pull the facts out of our asses and see who’s closer.
Some people get more, some people get less, depends on how much you made and paid into the system.
But the point here is that you have taken this thread so far off the guy you called a buffoon, Cliven Bundy, and have turned it onto all the lazy Aholes trying to take your money with a rampant epidemic of fakery that is draining the program of funds.
I’ll take a stab in the dark, but since you’re a Libertarian, the mainstream thought of your freshwater brethren is that we should just get rid of these programs and let the market sort it out.
Since Libertarians and other supposedly small government conservatives have been saying things like this for a long time (Social Security is a socialistic Ponzi scheme… Medicare will lead us to socialism… yada yada) and yet you still seem to have problems convincing people. Libertarians hardly, if ever, get elected outside of some local elections, and the GOP is watching this supposed center right nation vote center left most of the time now.
Heck, Democrats got a MILLION more votes for House seats than the GOP did.
So, please… keep talking about how all these people, or all colors, all over the country, about whom you know so much more than I, are a bunch of lazy moochers who lie and cheat their way to a lucrative career on disability (or worker’s comp, which is only temporary).
In the mean time, anyone who wants to do your homework for you can easily find that the fraud rates in these programs are impressively low, thanks in no small part to government workers who do their job well and deserve our admiration for their successful efforts.
Weekly Standard’s Kristol on early Cliven Bundy condemnation: ‘Common sense’
By Erik Wemple
April 28, 2014
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/04/28/weekly-standards-kristol-on-early-cliven-bundy-condemnation-common-sense/
Excerpt:
In a report last Friday, CNN media correspondent Brian Stelter broke down media coverage relating to Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who defied federal authorities over his cattle and later uttered some racist comments in front of a New York Times reporter. “Conservative outlets, most notably Fox News, turned Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy into a sympathetic star,” noted Stelter.
That was a tad incomplete. Sure, Fox News’s Sean Hannity rallied around Bundy, throwing easy, sympathetic questions his way in repeated interviews. The rancher’s refusal to pay grazing fees to the federal government appeared to delight Hannity, who at one point claimed that the mooching might just lower the price of meat for American consumers. After Bundy’s racist comments surfaced, however, Hannity repudiated them.
Yet Hannity hardly served as a spokesman for conservative media on the matter of Cliven Bundy. Take a look at this item in the Weekly Standard’s “Scrapbook.” It came out before the racist comments (despite the date stamp), and it is unequivocal in its condemnation of Bundy’s act:
“This does not sound to The Scrapbook like the dread hand of tyranny, in Nevada or Washington, oppressing an innocent farmer, or pushing some law-abiding citizen around. It sounds, instead, like a rancher gaming the system to his own financial advantage, and disguising his scheme in populist rhetoric: refusing to pay a tax which others must pay, and “tying up the courts”—for two decades!—as he continues to ignore the law. Far from acting in an arbitrary or capricious manner, the federal government has shown patience and forbearance in the face of lawlessness that customarily lands people in jail. It is worth noting that Bundy’s rancher-neighbors and the Nevada Cattlemen’s Association, who contend with the same federal policies, offer him little support.”
“We just thought it was common sense,” said Weekly Standard Editor William Kristol in a chat with the Erik Wemple Blog. “It was something more in the nature of a friendly reminder and caution to fellow conservatives not to get sucked into this thing.”
Nor did Kristol see a mass swoon for Bundy among his competitors. “I doubt that other magazines on the right were expressing a lot of support for him,” he said. Bundy’s views on federal power and his defiance over grazing fees, said Kristol, wasn’t as much of a “conservative cause celebre as the far right might have wanted and liberals might have hoped.”
feynman
anonymously posted
Did you catch Palin’s “Waterboarding Baptism” speech at the same event?
It was a total horror, but offered one comfort. After that speech she can NEVER run for president.
——–
feynman,
I did. “Painful” doesn’t even begin to describe the viewing experience.
As for: “After that speech she can NEVER run for president.”…:
I’m guessing that Palin might not be clear about that, though.
” He has/had a chance to his day in court, but under the rule of law we do not allow armed militiamen to challenge government authorized officers. Challenge them in court.”
I think that gets it right there.
Even for those of us who are concerned about the possibility of government over reaction, the right answer cannot be citizens showing up with assault rifles – at least not as long as the courts are open.
And despite all the comments and deeply felt emotion, I don’t think there is anything subtle about this or hard to understand.
Feynman,
Sometimes things are said with the intent to get you irritated, just follow the civility policy and ignore.
hskiprob: It pays to have knowledge about your own Libertarian wing as you claim to be. Shame on you for calling your Guru Senator Rand Paul a right wing fascist.:-)
hskiprob
“Elaine, are you a paid political hack?”
That’s certainly civil way to begin addressing my post about Cliven Bundy.
**********
“The attempt to discredit the rancher, his followers and 2/3s of the population of this country who are tired of the ever encroaching Federal Government and the ruling oligarchs who constantly usurp the rights of the Citizens for personal benefit, is quite obvious. A solar farm? really!!!! How long will it take this one to BK?”
Got any evidence to back up your claim about two-thirds of the US population being in league/agreement with Cliven Bundy and his disciples?
I don’t understand your question about the solar farm. Could you clarify what you meant by that?
Elaine, It just seems to me that almost every single thing you post is pro government despite all the evidence of the massive levels of corruption that goes on behind the scenes. How can you just ignore so much? I challenged your article because you did not provide a fair and balance assessment of the issues and sides and instead basically ratfcuted the rancher.
I think if you laid all the facts out on the table, I believe 2/3s of the people in this country would side with the rancher. When this many people go in opposition to the police force, they generally do not do so with out great conviction and reservation. Should our founding fathers have protected against the Crown?
As a realtor, I get to speak to a lot of people and I find very few people who are happy with the direction this country is going. And when I do find someone, they appear to be the few who are well off under the current system.
I keep saying this but with 48 million people on food stamps, we obviously, just from this statistic alone, have a huge problem. Ignoring the many problems, are not going to make them go away.
We libertarians told our fellow Citizens 40+ years ago that what is happening today was going to happen and why. We even published a game plan to slowly change the course.
But the country did not listen and continued to listen to the oligarchs and the main stream media instead.
Now we have a country that is at odds to such a degree, that people are literally drawing lines in the sand. Is that what you all want?
Anybody get the “Frothing” comment?