Islamic Scholars Present An Open Letter To ISIS Leader Al-Baghdadi

By Darren Smith, Weekend Contributor

Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi
Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi

A consortium of one hundred and twenty Islamic Scholars have placed onto the internet an Open Letter to Islamic State (ISIS) leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi denouncing the organization’s violent and extremist actions in the Middle East. The letter, in the form of an interactive website, provides the world with an opportunity to read a perspective of the Islamic State’s affront to civilization from an academic analysis by scholars. The letter addresses the fundamental and basis in canon for disputing the claims of Al-Baghdadi that his is the only pure and legitimate form of Islam–refuting his claims of divine assent.

The original, in the Arabic, is presently being translated into other languages. The English is presently available.

There has been unfortunately much misconception in the Western World that there lacks true dissent to the terrorist outrages in the Muslim World.  This letter can serve a secondary goal to educate those in other cultures having concerns.

Here follows the contents of the Open Letter:

Executive Summary

  1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas,and one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.
  2. It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.
  3. It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.
  4. It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.
  5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.
  6. It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.
  7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
  8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.
  9. It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.
  10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.
  11. It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.
  12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.
  13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
  14. It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
  15. It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.
  16. It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud ) without following the correct procedures that ensure justice and mercy.
  17. It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.
  18. It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
  19. It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.
  20. It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.
  21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.
  22. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.
  23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.
  24. After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

You are invited to read the letter in its entirety. It may be found below. As an aid in navigation, click on the link for [Read The Letter] followed by page turning navigation arrows at the upper left of the screen.

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

So far, the Facebook Page has over 103,000 Likes and growing–a welcome start.

By Darren Smith

The views expressed in this posting are the author’s alone and not those of the blog, the host, or other weekend bloggers. As an open forum, weekend bloggers post independently without pre-approval or review. Content and any displays or art are solely their decision and responsibility.

87 thoughts on “Islamic Scholars Present An Open Letter To ISIS Leader Al-Baghdadi

  1. Thank you for your effort to prevent world leaders from inciting racial or religious violence in order to maintain their delusion of control of the world.

    I will try to find and post how falsehoods were used after 1945 to try to gain totalitarian control of the whole world.

  2. http://judithcurry.com/2015/02/21/week-in-review-44/#comment-676778

    Fred Hoyle and Paul K. Kuroda left hints about the mysterious ending of WWII, and the birth of false models of energy in, and physical structure of neutron-rich cores of

    1. Heavy atoms like Uranium
    2. Gaseous planets like Jupiter
    3. Ordinary stars like the Sun
    4. Galaxies like the Milky Way

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/Solar_Energy_For_Review.pdf

    These errors obscured the force of creation – NEUTRON REPULSION – with unfounded claims:

    1. Science Disproves Religion
    2. A Standard Nuclear Model
    3. A Standard Climate Model
    4. A Standard Solar Model &
    5. Big Bang Cosmology . . .

    Conclusion: The AGW debate is over. The greatest threat to society’s now is arrogant scientists and politicians who cannot explain the data and will not admit they were wrong. The Sun made and sustains every atom, life and world in the entire solar system, including the climate of each planet and the heart-beat of every scientist and politician.

    May world leaders not be tempted to incite religious hatred or a “false flag” nuclear war to retain their delusion of control over the world!

  3. Damn! About time. Was this so freakin’ hard? But, the phrase “A day late and a dollar short” comes to mind. But, kudos to those involved in this letter. Hopefully they aren’t beheaded for it.

  4. What century would that put them in? How long before they reach the Age of Enlightenment? Who knows, perhaps this entire process has a greater purpose to introduce/reintroduce inalienable rights as something worth securing.

  5. “a welcome start”

    If people have the slightest self-awareness, Graham Fuller’s writings and comments should also be of note. ISIS didn’t spring from nothing.

  6. Nick,
    I too have posted such comments by Islamic Leaders and communities denouncing ISIS/IL. These voices are out there. We shouldn’t be asking where are they or why are they silent, we should be asking why are they being silenced, why are they being shuttered away.

    omanuel,
    Nicely put: Leaders inciting racial or religious violence in an order to maintain their delusion of control of the world. I’ve often opposed the mixing of Islam with terrorism, too. And have long questioned our “buy into” the appeal by our Western leaders that it is about Muslims around the world… President Obama’s speech the other day helped, I thought.

  7. Hopefully all here know the letter is fine, but Muslims are going to have to pick up guns and bayonets and kill these ISIS savages.

  8. po was kind enough to post this earlier today. My response is the same. Since ISIS wants to re-establish the caliphate, it is scaring the s**t out of the countries who are on the hit list.

  9. Where were these so-called scholars a dozen years ago?

    There is no “misconception” in the West that there has been a lack of “true dissent to the terrorist outrages” in the Muslim world. These “scholars” have simply been unwilling to translate and disseminate their message.

  10. It is not enough that some scholars refute misinterpretations of the Koran. Muslims must take action to control their own. It is not our place to have to do so – it is theirs. I suggest the people of the US will be less skeptical when appropriate action is taken by those who do wrong in the name of their religion. We would.

  11. This is wonderful. The best way to stop extremism is from within the Muslim community. Jordan was finally enraged and pledged death to ISIS when it tortured to death one of its own.

    If the Muslim nations in the Middle East firmly quashes extremism, and stands united with the rest of the world, the movement will not have the scope to run amuck. If they give tacit approval with their own “Death to America! Death to Israel!” chants, begun in elementary school, then such violent extremism rises.

    Look at how moving it is when the Muslim community stands up for peace. So much good can be done with a united front:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/22/1000-people-join-in-muslim-ring-peace-outside-norway-synagogue/?intcmp=latestnews

  12. Interesting p, sounds good at first blush but read more deeply. I actually don’t see a clear repudiation of ISIS.

    I look forward to seeing the entire letter. I will withhold my praise until I see actions to follow the words.

  13. Jack,
    I’m sure the vilification the Middle East has had over the last Century hasn’t helped. Going on 14 years soon of perpetual war there… with a possible three year extension.
    Here’s a brief (cough) film explaining this history of misalignment by the film industry (aka Librul Hollywood). Multiply this effect by Hollywood by factors of Twitter, Pinterest, YouTube, Facebook, etc. coupled with late 20th Century ‘mass media’ (ABCNNBCBS&FOXNews) you get an array of ideas. So, the question I naturally have is this, How does the meme ‘Muslim terrorist’ gain traction with all those ideas being freely exchanged? Anyway, the film…

  14. Max – that’s a great point. The media does not do a good enough job giving the Muslim community a platform to call for change.

    The Honor Diaries is a similar project to protest extremist violence against women. Some of the women involved are devout Muslims, as well as women activists of other faiths and cultures. But CAIR and similar groups denounce such criticism of Islam as Islamophobic or apostasy. My impression is that the media acquiesces to such efforts to silence reformers.

    The media should stop worrying about whom they offend and just report the news. And Muslim clerics and activists calling for change, and explaining why extremism is wrong, is definitely important news. Such information might just possibly come in time to prevent the radicalization of a young person.

    This makes me very hopeful that the global Muslim community can combat or reform extremism. However, an extremist believes that a moderate Muslim is not devout in the “holier than thou” race. I do not believe that you can intellectually argue an extremist back to moderation once he’s started chopping off heads. But such efforts might slow down recruitment. It can be very helpful when combined with military action to get the murderers, and the use of technology to shut down recruitment sites and social media. Maybe we need public service messages for parents to know the signs when their teenagers begin to radicalize, and what to do.

    Considering another extremist has targeted the Mall of America, we can use all the help we can get.

  15. Max – I loved that movie. I knew the chestnut mare Arnold rode.

    I disagree that it’s vilifying if it’s true. We have the “Muslim terrorist” cliche because most terrorist acts today are perpetrated by Muslim terrorists. Lately Hollywood has shied away from this stereotype, and most shows have terrorists from anywhere except the ME.

    I recall hearing about a student film where a Middle Eastern actor was frustrated beyond bearing because the only roles he could get were the stereotypical “Muslim terrorist.” So he became a terrorist and took over a movie studio to demand more diverse opportunities for Middle Eastern actors. It was a hilarious pitch. I wish I could find the title. If anyone can find it, let me know, because I just heard the description, and never saw it.

  16. It would be brainwashing if it weren’t true. But we don’t hear any news reports of “a Scandinavian female terrorist group bombed another mall today.” It’s rare for other groups to engage in terrorism. When they do, it’s news, such as that abortion clinic bombing 30 years ago, or the Unabomber, who was actually solo and not a group at all.

    Now, if Muslim terrorists would just fade away, so would the stereotypes, at least when the trauma fades. But they just keep popping up in the news, every single day.

  17. Max – Saudi Arabia must be racist against Iraqis. Because that’s the line we hear when we talk about strengthening the wall between us and Mexico to protect against drug cartels and human trafficking.
    :)

  18. Annie, they were not all Muslims! They were Muslims and their friends, nonmuslims they asked to join them. The true story is better than the revised one. You are not alone. Everyone is revising it to all Muslims. Look at the pictures. Guys in Jeans and sweatshirts along with Muslims in traditional clothing. The nonmuslims are smiling.

  19. I’m sure it’ll play well in the West, it’s primary target.
    Far more than words are needed at this point.

    And since taqqiya is part of their religion, how can one judge this?
    Only by accompanying action can one be sure.

    Otherwise, it’s just air, perhaps even propaganda.

  20. As everyone else, why so long? Couldn’t they let the world know they were preparing this? How will ISIS get this info and will they believe it? If they continue to defy Islam, what happens?

    Anxious to see Obama’s reaction to this. I guess this is what he means when he says ISIS is not Islam. Will he speak out to Muslims here about these laws? How about the UN?

  21. A welcome response at last. But what if they do not desist from their actions and do not return to the guidance of their religion? Are we simply to wait for their resurrection for justice to be served upon them, or will these clerics and scholars come to announce that it is time for earthly retribution against those Muslims who commit crimes against innocents?

    In September 1939, Chamberlain said: “We are not fighting against you, the German people, for whom we have no bitter feelings, but against a tyrannous and forsworn regime which has betrayed not only its own people but the whole of civilization.” The tragedy that ultimately unfolded for the whole of German people thereafter was in no insignificant part due to their unwillingness themselves to rise up in arms against the regime.

    Let’s hope that Muslims, for whom no one has bitter feelings, never come to find themselves similarly situated. There is yet a fuller price to be paid for what is happening. Pay it soon, while it is still less than what it will be if the crimes are left unanswered.

  22. Sandi, can you link to an article that states how many of them were Muslims and how many were their non Muslim friends? I’d be curious to know what percentage of them were Muslims. I’m asking you because you brought it up, seems like it’s important to you.

  23. Every religion does the same thing. They pick chose and rearrange their holy text and then uses it as their true meaning.
    But look at this: A prosecutor once took one word out and replaced it with …
    The prosecutor however did not know that the defendant had read that case and the word was a key word. NOT was that word. The case said it was NOT illegal, but it was in the opinion of the prosecutor that it was illegal.
    Point of View, (POV) can kill and then be right in his mind. But at the same time be guilty of mass murder.
    Christian did it to people too. Hitler was one like ISIS an ISIL and they would rather die then be taught they are wrong to reason. When a student does as he was taught then who is guilty. A child who is taught to hate will never know real love.
    A kid believe the way he was used was showing love to him and that is what he must do when he gets in the same condition.
    Hatred is a learned condition of the human mind. He knows only to hate.
    A preacher beat his son and his son later became his father and the chain was not broken until there where no more links. The grandson kill everyone and his brother will never walk. The state punishment to him was LIFE WITHOUT A CHANCE OF PAROLE. His brother is the reminder of what he did aand also how he was taught to love someone.

  24. As noted above, frightened world leaders formed the UN on 24 Oct 1945 and collectively forbade public knowledge of energy in cores of:

    1. Atoms heavier than ~150 amu (atomic mass units)
    2. Gaseous planets like Jupiter
    3. Ordinary stars like the Sun
    4. Galaxies like the Milky Way
    5. The expanding Universe, i.e.,

    World leaders tried to hid the force of creation that makes atoms of chemical elements out of compressed nuclear matter.

    The dogmatic religion of “consensus science” is now worldwide, except for Muslim countries.

  25. This is an opportunity to say again. ISIS is not Muslim. ISIS is opportunistic, terrorist, thuggery. Just because some wacko calls himself Muslim and attracts the worst of the worst scum does not mean it is Islam. That idiot in Florida is not Christian simply because he says he is. He caused the deaths of several innocent people to vent his spleen. Just because I am not Christian nor Muslim does not mean I can’t say what is and what isn’t. ISIS is simple opportunistic thuggery. Obama hit the nail on the head. We are not at war with Islam. We are and should be at war with anything that invokes some divine mumbo jumbo to obtain what it wants through force. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then perhaps it is nothing more than thuggery. Calling it what it is, thuggery, is the greatest compliment and respect that can be paid to Islam.

    People come first, religion comes after. Common sense and good hearts trump any religion. People have the right to determine what is and what is not religion. ISIS is not religion.

  26. “ISIS is not Muslim.

    Yet it differs not from centuries of Muslim behavior.
    And your conclusion differs wildly from the article from the Atlantic:

    What ISIS Really Wants
    The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to sop it.
    Graeme Wood

    “We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature.

    The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

  27. “The same plan that failed to stop street gangs and drug dealers has been deployed to defeat ISIS. Heading it up are progressives who don’t believe that killing the enemy wins wars.”
    Sultan Knish

  28. Isaac:

    “This is an opportunity to say again. ISIS is not Muslim. ISIS is opportunistic, terrorist, thuggery.”

    To combat extremism, it is critical to understand and accept that ISIS, Boko Haram, et al are religious extremist movements. Their motivation is religious. It is immaterial that there are other people interpreting Islam in a completely different way. To THEM, they ARE Muslims, and they really believe they are doing the will of Allah. They are not terrorists who just happen to be Muslim, like they just happen to be brunette. It is their own form of religious ideology that shapes their actions and world view.

    Denying this ties our hands at effectively combating them. This is not about politics, or money, or jobs, or college. They believe that Westernization, the education of women, and other freedoms displease Allah and are contrary to their faith. Hence they act on those beliefs.

    In a similar way, the centuries of periodic bloodshed between Shiite and Sunni Muslims are religious, and center around which line succeeded Mohammad, with some long grudges about assassination. Iran is Shiite because all the Sunnis were massacred long ago.

    If it helps differentiate them, you can refer to them as Extremist Muslims, or Violent Extremist Muslims. This differentiates them from “Muslims” or “Moderate Muslims” “Westernized Muslims” or whatever. Extremist Muslims view moderates as non-devout or non-practicing or inferior in a way, and they do great violence to them, as well.

  29. Those who arrogantly “BELIEVE”, instead of humbly admitting that they honestly “DON’T KNOW”, pave the way for the vilest practitioner’s of evil to hijack their fairytale based religions and justify the crimes of the worlds most disgusting minds.

  30. What a bunch of ”pigwash”, a pile of trash! I know some Muslims (non-dedicated) personally who will tell you, those dedicated to Islam (95%) will lie, cheat, kill and whatever else they have to do to promote their religious ideology/theology. Islam is very political and is an evil religion that demand complete allegiance and control and they control with fear and kill those who do not convert to Islam. There intent is to control the whole world with their religion. They are WORSE than Hitler could have ever been! Anyone who says differently are lying or ignorant!

    A fatwa is a legal pronouncement in Islam, issued by a religious law specialist on a specific issue and ”they determine the pronouncement”.

    Here’s a great example: Jerry Falwell once said: “I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war.” The following Friday, Mohsen Mojtahed Shabestari, an Iranian cleric, issued a ”fatwa” calling for Falwell’s death, saying Falwell was a “mercenary and must be killed.” He added, “The death of that man is a religious duty, but his case should not be tied to the Christian community.” There’s you FATAW!

    This religion is the counterfeit to the True and Living God and will be the ruling diabolical religion in the End Times!

  31. Reblogged this on The GOLDEN RULE and commented:
    Secondly, it is clearly evident, if looking at a range of sources, to see that the so-called IS group is not a legitimate Islamic idealist movement. They did not suddenly blossom, ( a bad choice of word, I admit), from nothing, to a force to be reckoned with, without considerable outside support. Funding, vehicles, armaments, weaponry, organized leadership, incentive to thrust into places that provide justification for Western intrusion. How many times have you seen videos of supposed IS members praying to Allah in different directions? Where did all their funding and equipment come from? (For one of some references, see http://tgrule.com/?s=ISIS )
    Thirdly, a little stretch of the imagination would take you into the world of ‘1984’ (George Orwell) or ‘Brave New World’ (Aldous Huxley), to make it easier to understand the techniques of the ‘ungodly’ in their effforts for world domination.
    Close to home (Australia) we now have our ‘esteemed’ PM promoting sacrifice of civil liberties in the interests of combating almost non-existent terrorism in Australia. “Terrorism” that may even be of the set up false-flag variety, or perhaps simply isolated incidents being utilized to his advantage.
    So when ISIS, or IS is shown up to be illegitimate by genuine Islamists, we should take note.

  32. Thanks Darren for this.
    For those who say “at last”, you sound like those who think something was nonexistent until they became aware of it.
    Imams, scholars and laymen have been stating their disapproval of extremism in their faith for decades. Where is the media coverage of it?
    10 minutes online would show a hundred links to talks, conferences, discussions where the participants denounced loudly and clearly those who do violence in the name of Islam, and this way even before 9/11.
    At least have the decency, friends, to do your homework before shooting your mouth.
    And Pogo, before you endorse the Atlantic essay as the gospel of ISIS, here is an answer to it. Let me know what you think.
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/20/atlantic-defines-real-islam-says-isis/
    Then this islamic perspective on ISIS middleeasteye.net/columns/isis-and-academic-veil-islamophobia-87953877
    Then here is a history of ISIS that shows that, as usual, we are responsible for creating our own boogeyman. http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/no-piers-morgan-how-destroy-islamic-state-1630388804

  33. Though of course the Muslims writing this have cherry picked. Without a full Islamic Reformation with understood and distinct limits of the religion, — & the idea of jihad and the Sword — the religion will be discredited by insane people

    When a crazy Christian goes on a rampage it is never said they are doing it in the name of religion, & there is an immediate condemnation from all Christian communities relevant

  34. If world leaders admit and accept the Sun’s core is a pulsar they cannot predict or control – A Higher Power Than World Leaders – true world peace will again be possible

  35. po, actions, not words.
    I’ll believe ISIS does not represent Islam when this stops for even a month:
    (I mean who am I gonna believe, you or the severed heads?)

    2015.02.22 Nigeria Potiskum
    A child suicide bomber murders five patrons at an outdoor market.
    2015.02.21 Syria Qardaha
    At least four others are killed by a suicide bomber at a hospital.
    2015.02.21 Iraq al-Baghdadi
    Forty-three moderate Sunnis are burned alive by the caliphate.
    2015.02.20 Libya al-Qubah
    Fifty people are blown to bits by three Islamic State suicide car bombs.
    2015.02.20 Somalia Mogadishu
    A Shahid suicide bomber exterminates twenty-five ‘apostates’ at a luxury hotel.
    2015.02.19 Niger Tourba Guida
    Three people are murdered by a Boko Haram attack on a village.
    2015.02.19 Nigeria Chibok
    At least thirty are left dead when Boko Haram gunmen open up randomly on villagers.
    2015.02.18 Pakistan Islamabad
    A Jundullah suicide bomber detonates outside a Shiite mosque, killing four innocents.
    2015.02.18 Iraq Mosul
    An elderly man is tied up and stoned to death after being accused of adultery.
    2015.02.18 Iraq Samarrah
    Six Iraqis killed by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    2015.02.18 Egypt Cairo
    A bomb planted by religious extremists kills a street cleaner.

  36. Are the followers of al Baghdadi ( false caliph) apostates? Is this letter calling them apostates, and if so, then what is the proper reaction from the Muslim world?

  37. Pogo
    Have you read the links I provided? No! Then please spare us the usual litany of “evil acts done in the name of Islam”. I hope you realize sooner rather than later that you undermine your own faith whenever you do that. This is a higher level of intellectual engagement, please don’t reduce it to the tit for tat of the lower mind.

    Deb
    Generally, normal sunni muslims would not go out of their way to call anyone an apostate. Only God knows who is. Calling someone an apostate is really a political move, in order to set them up for something.
    So if you hear someone being eager to call another muslim an apostate, be wary of them.
    A prophetic hadith says that whenever one calls another an apostate, one of them is necessarily right, either the called, or the callee.

  38. “Have you read the links I provided? No!

    We need fewer words, more action.
    I post the the usual litany of “evil acts done in the name of Islam” because the bodies keep piling up, yet you maintain it’s not Islam.

  39. Denounce, denounce, denounce…
    Eh…here is the denunciation…and that one…and that one…
    Uh…what took them so long? WHAT TOOK THEM SO LONG?!
    Ah, Nick, fascinating Nick, simple Nick! What would Turley blog be without you to muddle things and make even less sense of it! With friend like you, Turley needs no enemy!
    ———————-
    Something severed heads and incinerated bodies have a hard time doing, I agree.
    Haha, so what’s your excuse, Pogo?

  40. The moment you give thuggery the credibility of a religion that has one and a half billion members, of which hundreds of millions practice the religion inoffensively, you are compromised in the face of this despicable enemy. You shoot a rabid dog without blaming all other dogs. It is no longer a dog but a threat. If a human comes at you with a knife or a gun, you drop it. You don’t consider dogness or humanity. These thugs can call themselves whatever they want and believe in whatever they have cherry picked from Islam. The way to respond to this nonsense is to reject those that do harm in the name of a religion and embrace those that do good.

    The thugs in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Africa, regardless of the religion they call home must be seen as opportunistic thugs and nothing else. Why confuse the issue with religion?

    It is not what someone calls themselves. It is how they act. An atheist that harms no one is light years ahead of a devout Christian, Muslim, or other that does any harm. This holier than thou card is at the root of the world’s problems.

    It is not a case of who’s holier than whom but who is slaughtering whom for no acceptable reasons. A thug is a thug is a thug. Wax em all, stop trying to understand them.

    The bane of mankind is those that use religion to justify their crimes. Skip the religious mumbo jumbo in all cases and go to the root of the problem. Invasion is invasion, stealing is stealing, apartheid is apartheid. Don’t invite them to a peace table. Wax em.

  41. Po – I am trying to understand the terminology and meaning. If one is right and one is wrong, does this letter affirm that the clerics are right and ISIS is wrong?
    This scholarly letter lists all these things that are forbidden that ISIS has committed, what is the consensus that the punishment should be for al Baghdadi and his followers?

  42. Pogo

    So if a Muslim interprets Islam in all the societally good ways, wishes no harm on anyone, does good, then you lump them in with ISIS because they both call themselves Muslims? What about the strict Christians and Jews who believe in all the stuff in the bible, old and new testament, Torah, etc. where there are several directives to go out and slaughter those that aren’t like them……?

    Supposedly the US and separation of church and state is about rising above religion, all religions. Those that want to believe in stuff are free to as long as they don’t go around slaughtering others who don’t conform. Then it is just sicko thuggery.

    There is nothing like religion to give one license to rise above others and then kill them. Thuggery is thuggery no matter how it is labeled, how many times you pray a day, or how fantastic the ‘houses of worship are’.

  43. When we kill 62 civilians (at least) in attacking ISIS – is that outrageous or extreme?

    More like —–> regrettable but likely unavoidable. War does really suck and people who are not combatants die.

  44. Well said, Isaac, no tmuch to add to that.
    Good question, Inga, conveniently ignored.
    Great question, TJustice.

    DBQ, you are offering the same rationale that Al Qaeda used to blow up the world trade center, and that Hamas uses against Israel, and that Israel uses against Palestinians, and that Bashar Assad is using against his own population. Once you accept the premise that civilians are necessary and unavoidable collateral damage, you are treading on the same path that leads to war crimes. I wish I could say I am surprised, but goodwill is a rarer commodity nowadays.

  45. Deb
    Po – I am trying to understand the terminology and meaning. If one is right and one is wrong, does this letter affirm that the clerics are right and ISIS is wrong?
    This scholarly letter lists all these things that are forbidden that ISIS has committed, what is the consensus that the punishment should be for al Baghdadi and his followers?
    ————————————-
    Great question, Deb.
    Consensus is a major part of Islam. Therefore when most of the scholars agree on a principle, another scholar still has the right, based on his knowledge and intellectual work to disagree with them, but he does not have the right to try to impose his view upon the majority.
    So in this case, Al Baghdadi is the minority by going against the majority and going against the consensus, and because the issue involves lives and can cause harm, he is not allowed the leisure to have his own opinion in these matters, or at least to try to impose them.

    Ironically, if an actual islamic state existed that ruled upon Muslim lands and the religion, that Islamic state would go after this IS and destroy them. But since there is no Islamic power, no caliph, no islamic army, and the muslims are not gathered under one banner, IS is pretty much free to do whatever it wants.
    The most Muslims can do is to try to discredit IS religiously and thereby stop people from joining it, which is the intent of this letter.

  46. Annie, it wasn’t so much the article, but various pictures. I didn’t read the whole thing, but stated Muslims had asked friends for help, which I think is great. I’ll search for some pictures showing nonmuslims.

  47. Annie, If you search for pictures you will see hundreds of people standing behind a barricade. The picture I just found on Reuters is of a Muslim in traditional dress clasping hands with guys in jeans, there was a woman in one. There are so many articles out there now. And everyone seems to be changing to 1,000 Muslims. Doesn’t matter, I thought it was great that friends agreed to help, but that part of the story is no longer interesting.

  48. Pogo

    Keep listing what Po calls your litany of atrocities. Funny how he chooses to gloss over the daily insanity, committed by the followers of the religion of peace, and never addresses the harm spread not just by ISIS, but by Muslims worldwide. Not isolated incidents, but a continual pattern. The letter published by the clerics is a ruse and is inconsistent with Islamic texts.

  49. Tellingitlikeitain’t
    What do you want me to do, acknowledge that we, Muslms are really evil and violent to the core, that we are fed blood laced with steroids from birth, and use the images of disbelievers for shooting target? I am undercover, dude, how dumb would I be if I told you our plans for you all (especially you…and Pogo…yeah, and Nick too.)
    BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA …. deep breath…
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHHAHHAHHAHHAA…. cough…cough

    By the way, Telling, we are looking for another muslim Pope. You seem to be most knowledgeable about all things Islam, as Karen is about all things shariah law. The pay is good, anything you can carry on your camel, lots of humus, AC, a large sword…but the best is in the afterlife…number 72…hint, hint…

  50. Ah, now I understand where the game ‘Simon Says’ comes from. Simon says, stand on one leg. Simon says, it is forbidden to….. If the Western World has one great example of being more evolutionarily advanced than Islam it is the ability to recognize the ‘raison d’etres’ behind religion. It is power and nothing else, well there are the games and fairy tales.

  51. Po

    The suicide bombers and the other crazies think that they are martyrs, with 72 virgins awaiting them in paradise. As the Islamic expert that you declared me to be, I wonder if I should clarify that 72 year old virgins await them, not 72 virgins. Lol! Now THAT’S what I call an afterlife!

  52. Telling,
    perhaps you should, I have yet to meet anyone willing to blow himself up in the hope of getting 72 years old virgins. Maybe you have figured out how to stop suicide bombing!
    Don’t I know my people? I knew you were qualified to be the first Muslim pope.
    But Karen still gets my vote unless you write a fatwa calling for a flogging of Nick and Pogo, 100 lashes each.

  53. No. 10, “It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.”
    Is it okay to harm or mistreat others then? I don’t think “People of the Scripture” should get special treatment.

  54. That these respected Muslim scholars have published this open letter is wonderful. That it has NOT BEEN PUBLICIZED by America’s mass media is despicable.

  55. I am on the same bus as RobertRexEdwards.
    There is a faction of Christianity that lives on their application of the words of the Bible, and focus on certain words, phrases and interpretations, that for instance, just by way of example and not exclusion to other points, would vilify any marriage that is not man/woman. Again, just an example of one tenant that “they” would propose.
    Christians of other ilks have spoken out against this, including I presume writings to that effect. Does it change them? Heck no. In fact, that single issue is most likely responsible for the election of Kentucky’s Governor in the latest election. ISIS will not be influenced in the least by this note. It will mollify non-Muslims, and perhaps that alone is its goal.
    The problem, throughout the world, is how the “disenfranchised” are treated. In the middle east, there is a long history of indifference, if not outright condemnation, of the disenfranchised. This creates fertile ground for people to “join” ISIS, and the action is not a new phenomenon in history.
    Humanity will find, perhaps, a voice of reason, heard over the internet, who can appeal to the world. Perhaps it will take a fundamental event to get everyone’s attention. (Know his, though, the power that is the money and which “runs” the world right now, doesn’t give a shit about any of that as long as they can live with the numbers produced.)

  56. Larry Klayman discusses his latest lawsuit victory against NSA data collection Included is discussion regarding Obama’s undeniable Muslim roots and influence.

  57. The fact that it says its forbidden, means that you are not allowed to think for your self or disprove anything that is said even though it might be wrong. Sorry no religion has an overall right to control the people and tell them what they can and can’t do.
    That is why there is do much dogma in Christianity, Judaism and Muslims.
    Better to be able to debate, discus and change with the times such as in Hinduism and Buddhism.
    Sorry I’m not a believer in any god and therefor would be one of the first put to death by you lot in your holy wars.
    Religions of the cancer of our society. Get rid of them and let people live as experiencing loving people.

  58. it would help of people would learn this calculus

    Shiite islam = more reasonable but a minority of world muslims

    sunni= majority but not all that unreasonable

    Salafist== preferred sect of Saudis and their terrorist proxy militias al queda and IS; TOTALLY NUTS

    unfortunately, the Shiites are aligned with Russia (Hezbollah, Syria, Iran) and the Salafists are aligned with the US. oh, did I say that? Sorry I mean…. whatever, just forget it.

  59. I Mean here General Clark tells about the plan to unconstitutionally unseat various powers with wars of aggression.

    and interesting isn’t it the democrats follow the same strategy?

    Tells you that the whole illusion of democracy and elections is BS

    So too is the idea of constitutional government IN THE US. A lie.

    Why doesn’t Congress impeach? Because they are in the same racket!

  60. John Smith; great video of General Clark. The entire U.S. population should be required to view it. Hell, the entire “civilized” world should see it. “…and interesting isn’t it the democrats follow the same strategy?” People are waking up. Democrat and Republican are just two heads of the same beast. People are waking up to the stark reality that trying to change things through the political system or legal system is NOT WORKING. What’s left? An act of God? The minions turn on their masters? The proles wake up? Another American revolution? Because we keep seeing more and more of the S.O.S.

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