The massacre in San Bernadino, California is as baffling as it is chilling. I am very familiar with the Redlands and San Bernadino areas since I would spend summers in the area growing up and still have relatives there (including one of the officers responding to this shooting). What is so chilling is the lack of any indication of such an act from a couple that seemed to be living the American dream with a good income and new baby . . . and highly supportive colleagues who they proceeded to slaughter.
For me, the three most chilling facts are the following.
First, Syed Farook, 28, had a good work relationship with these people (he made $51,000 a year as an environmental health specialist for the county) and sat at an office party shortly before killing them. It appears that he may have gotten into an argument with with colleague Nicholas Thalasinos (right), a Messianic Jew who was one of the victims. Thalasinos was known to write caustic comments about Islam on the Internet. (His wife says that Thalasinos often wrote about radical Islam but was friendly with Farook). The argument discussed in the media may have occurred a couple weeks before the party and it is not clear whether the argument had rekindled shortly before the shooting. (One account has Farook telling Thalasinos that he “will never see Israel.”) However, it is clear that these two murderers were planning for terrorism based on the search of their home. A witness said that when Farook disappeared just before the photo session at the party, someone asked, “Where’s Syed?”
Second, both he and his wife Tashfeen Malik, 27, dropped off their 6-month-old girl with his mother Wednesday morning, claiming he had a doctor’s appointment. So these two were willing to abandon their baby in some pursuit of paradise — attaining glory through the slaughter of innocents.
Third, these were not strangers. Not only had these victims worked at Farook’s side, but they actually threw a baby shower for this couple who later slaughtered 14 people (and wounded 17).
Both were devout Muslims who appeared at the party (after Farook left) in dark tactical gear and masks with assault rifles and handguns. From their profiles, these two people would be viewed as well adjusted and well grounded in society. Farook actually called himself a “modern Muslim” on social media to distinguish himself from more traditional Muslims. On his dating profile before he met Malik he said that he was “living life to the fullest” and that he wanted a woman who was interested in “snow boarding, to go out and eat with friends, go camping, working on cars with me.” Indeed, Farook is quoted as telling his colleagues that Americans do not understand Islam and then proceeds to confirm that worst stereotype of Islam by critics.
Farook recently went to Saudi Arabia and may have been radicalized while in the Kingdom (a hotbed for extremism). He traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2013 to meet Malik’s family (who are from Pakistan), and then again in July 2014 to marry her. He would later be in contact with known terrorist figures according to police.
At their home, police say that they found an IED factory and 7,000 rounds of ammunition for assault rifles, 9-mm. handguns and .22-caliber rifles. So whatever the argument may have done, there was clearly planning for an attack if these accounts prove accurate. The argument may have triggered the massacre but the arsenal suggests that a massacre may have been in the works. What is clear is that both of these individuals were powder kegs before any argument with a co-worker.
The greatest question however remains the road to radicalism. We have seen this pattern before of men visiting Saudi Arabia or Syria and coming back radicalized and unstable.
There is absolutely nothing “radical” (from a Muslim POV) about killing innocent Americans in return for American behavior described below:
1. Blind unwavering support for Israel, a nation of absolutely zero national interest to the USA.
2. US military support of Saudi Arabia, where is occupied the most holy of all Islamic holy land, Mecca (IOW, Muslims view Mecca as if the US military occupied it).
3. US military support of the most evil and blood thirsty killers of innocent Muslims, such as in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, all over the ME and north Africa.
Muslims do their rightful duty as Muslims in killing innocent Americans. Exactly as the US did in Dresden. Muslims war against the US for what the US does to Muslims all over the world, but especially in the ME.
Every Muslim leader who denies this lies, and perpetuates the killing.
First of all, the issue is NOT islam.
Why? A couple of facts:
Fact:1
More domestic terrorism is due to non-Muslims than to muslims. By that fact alone, shouldn’t Christianity be the problem, since most domestic terrorism comes from a christian background? (9 church goers, 20 children and staff at sandy hook…)
Fact 2:
The tenets of Islam do NOT condone terrorism. Why? Because the Quran not only rejects preemptive strikes, but fundamentally rejects ALL acts of mistreating the elderly, civilians, the sick, animals, trees and property, even during war time. Additionally, it is the first constitution that gave everyone equal rights, and also gave animals and nature rights.
There is also no collateral damage in islam. Period.
Additionally, the rules of warfare are very clear in islam, and it requires declaration of war, identification of enemy as active and fairness in battle.
Fact 3: Whatever is blamed on Islam, is currently ALSO committed by other groups under either their religious tenets, or their political tenets (including right here, militias, oathkeepers, neo-nazis) and elsewhere (militias and neo-nazis in Ukraine.) If, therefore, others groups are committing the SAME acts as Muslims are, in greater numbers, what logic makes the latter more guilty?
Fact 4: Isis and terrorism in general, have been roundly condemned by MOST islamic scholars across the globe. Any 2 minutes on line would show imams both local and abroad speaking out vehemently against terrorism of any sort. If the great majority of Muslims disavow terrorism and violence, the great majority of scholars disavow terrorism and violence, the Quran itself delienates the rules of fighting to insure that no terrorism is practiced, what logic dictates islam is especially violent.
Fact 5: The Iraq war alone, led on false pretenses and wrapped in a christian crusading narrative, has killed more people than Islam ever has, since the beginning till now.
The bombing of Syria by the west, has killed more people than Muslims have killed westerners.
The US is currently engaged in a bombing campaign in 13 Muslim countries.
And yet Islam is the problem?
fact 6:
Most islamic terrorism, whether the 9/11 guys, the Paris guys and most of ISIS, are actually not very religious, nor very knowledgeable about their faith. few of them prayed or fasted regularly.
What is the issue then?
1-A state of mind (mental health issues combined with emotional issues.)
Anyone who commits mass murders is necessarily mentally unhealthy. Mental unhealth more often than not expresses itself into anger. Anger stems from various issues, principally, the belief that one is unfairly treated. Muslims in the west who believe they are unfairly treated (in France for example where arabs are alienated from society, second class citizens herded into ghettos, no jobs…) ARE MORE LIKELY to react violently, same as non-Muslims in the US who reacted violently from feeling they are being unfairly treated.
Currently, all of us Muslims who are law abiding citizens are experiencing a certain level of anger and distress. Why? Because of the increasing level of racist and islamophobic rhetoric that has invaded our airwaves. I can see it in my children, both of whom asked what is wrong with being black and/or Muslim. The media is telling them that there is something wrong with them simply due to their ethnicity or their religion. I no longer watch the news while they are around, because it is either black kids being killed or Muslims being demonized.
As long that continues, more unhinged Muslims will react violently. They will make it a point to make others pay for how they themselves feel inside. That simple.
2- Weapons
Going from anger to mass shooting requires the means. Without the ease and availability of guns, mass shootings would not be as easily accomplishable. That simple.
3- Political
Imagine you are a Jew, and you look out into the world, and wherever you look, see your fellow jews being droned to bits, missiled to pieces,,women, children, babies….
You hear the Us government and the west claim to be fighting the good fight, yet one that targets your people across the globe. Why? Because some, weapon manufacturers, oil companies and pols make a great deal of money off the lives of others.
Should we really wonder that such frustration would lead some to take arms against their government and their society? And let us note that mass shootings are really anger against the government taken out on the people.
So as long as the West is at war against the Muslim world, Muslims will react in such manners. Logically, it is perfectly understandable. What isn’t, is our shock at the karmic blowback for the evil we send out.
Isis’ main ploy is to force a divide between western Muslims and the west, and it is succeeding. why, because we, Americans, westerners, have adopted their practice and are making sure Muslims become alienated here and have to choose between their home and the evil that is islamic extremism.
When young American Muslim men hear presidential candidates call for their herding into camps, what do you think they feel? Where do you think they will look when they feel unwelcome in their own homes?
What would those do who can’t join ISIS or find another welcoming place to go?
No matter how often some say it, the issue is not Islam. We all have a common responsibility in this. Just as you are not called to justify yourself before the evil of your kind, don’t ask me to justify myself, my presence here, my loyalty to this country or my moral standing. Fingering muslims while supporting 13 wars against the muslim world is hypocritical. Fighting gun legislation while fingering mass shooters is hypocritical.
po – these are your Islamic friends from ISIS
http://www.vocativ.com/news/256909/isis-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-america-burning/
At some point, people will have to decide if the “Tim McVay” type of terrorist is as great of a threat as Islamic terrorism.
I’m not aware of any particular religious motivation, of affiliation, of the Sandy Hook shooter.
The “what about Christian terrorists?”, with respect to Sandy Hook, etc. is an assinine diversion.
There was a recent Pew? Poll conducted in 11 Islamic countries, which found that less than 15% supported ISIS.
If that’s halfway accurate, and those numbers are extrapolated worldwide among the c. One Billion muslims, then we’re “only” dealing with c.150,000,000 supporters of ISIS.
Mr. Po -thank you for your input. It’s refreshing to see moderate muslims speak out in a forum like this, and using their real names.
Tom, you can’t have it both ways. The same standard ought to be applied to all sides, no?
More christian domestic terrorism was committed here than Islamic terrorism. Should we just ignore it?
What, should we compare holy books now?
Should we compare holy men now?
Imams vs pastors and priests?
Death tally of the christian west vs death tally of the Muslim east?
What, facts should be overlooked and ignored now?
Should we just deal in emotions and ignore context 🙂
Your move, friend!
Monty Z. There have been extensive previous discussions with Ninian as to the extreme difficulty, and the near impossibilty, if repealing the 2nd Amendment.
That pipe dream of repealing the 2nd Amendment tends to come from those without even a basic concept of the hurdles involved in constitutional amendments, or repealing an amendment.
Tom Nash – just remember 60yrs ago Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus to a white man. Today you have a black president. That is how far America has come. You are just beginning to live the dream. To suggest that change is not possible is nonsense. We do not even know if the USA will still exist in another hundred years.
The second amendment will be revoked not if – but when Americans decide the time is right.
But this is only one option to control guns….
ninian – if having a black President is living the dream then the UK is at least 100 years behind. I just cannot remember the last black prime minister of the UK. Who was that?
Ninian…Americans are aware that change is possible.
One example of that awareness was bouncing Great Britain out of America in the late 18th century.
Paul C Schulte
In the United Kingdom we are very proud of our black heritage.
Whilst it is true we are yet to elect a black Prime Minister, we proudly do have Black ancestry in our Royal Family.
Princess Sophie Charlotte was descended directly from an African branch of the Portuguese Royal House, Margarita de Castro y Sousa. Six different lines can be traced from Princess Sophie Charlotte back to Margarita de Castro y Sousa. She married America”s favourite King, His Majesty George III of England on September 8, 1761, at the Chapel Royal in St James’ Palace, London, at the age of 17 years of age becoming the Queen of England and Ireland. This marriage explains George’s liberal disposition and his anti-salvery sentiments. It puts him centuries ahead of the American Colonials of the Time and confirms him as a benevolent and much loved monarch yet maligned monarch by his American subjects with an agenda of their own. An agenda that had little to do with freedom and liberty and everything to do with Power.
Although Her Majesty had an interest, especially the Colonial War of Independence in America, she fulfilled her marital agreement of not becoming involved in politics. This was in keeping with the position of the Monarch, who had no political power. The Royal couple had fifteen children, thirteen of whom survived to adulthood. Their fourth eldest son was Edward Augustus, Duke of Kent, later fathered Queen Victoria. The African genes have passed down successive monarchs to our current Sovereign, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her great-great grand daughter.
Her Majesty Queen Charlotte was well read and had interests in the fine arts. She was tutored in music by Johann Christian Bach and was extremely generous to Bach’s wife after Bach’s death. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, at aged eight dedicated his Opus 3 piece to the Queen at her request.
She was also an amateur botanist, and helped to establish Kew Gardens. She introduced the Christmas tree to England. It was said to be decorated with, ‘sweetmeats, almonds and raisins in papers, fruit and toys.
She was also the patron of Queen Charlotte Maternity hospital in London. Set up as a charitable institution, it is the oldest maternity care institution in England..
George Washington could have
fathered a son with Venus, a young slave who lived on the estate of his half brother John Augustine Washington. However with no Washington descendents as yet providing DNA samples, this cannot be verified.
It is believed by most historians that the widowed Jefferson began a sexual relationship with his slave Sarah “Sally” Hemings either in France or soon after their return to Monticello. They had six children of record born into slavery; four survived to adulthood.
The historical question of whether Jefferson was the father of Hemings’ children is known as the Jefferson-Hemings controversy.
Following a DNA analysis in 1988 a match was found between the Jefferson male line and a descendant of Hemings’ last son, Eston Hemings. There is a near-consensus among historians that the widower Jefferson fathered the children.
But in contrast to His Majesty King George III he never married Sarah “Sally” Hemings. Sally remained as a domestic servant in Jefferson’s house until his death. Which says a great deal… about early America and the King it so despised.
http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_events/view/englands-first-black-queen-sophie-charlotte-born
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/07/us/descendants-of-slave-s-son-contend-that-his-father-was-george-washington.html?pagewanted=all
Ninian – even Wikipedia thinks that Charlette is German. So, who are those blacks we elected as prime minister again?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Indeed, Farook is quoted as telling his colleagues that Americans do not understand Islam
He was wrong. We understand Islam and are understanding more each day. The question is what are we going to do about it?
Liberals are marginalizing themselves more each day.
Our AG, Loretta Lynch, said today her greatest fear is not terrorism, but the backlash against American Muslims.
to be fair a case of 223 costs about $360 now.
one case is a thousand rounds. who cares what the tangos, had, active sport shooters can burn through a case pretty quickly. you buy in quantity and the cheapest ammo is like 20 cents a round. for those who cant do math, that’s $200 for one case. a one thousand dollar investment in ammo, which is not unreasonable for people willing to dump a grand on an ar 15, can fetch numerous cases of ammo.
in other words, to a shooter 9 cases is a good ammo cache but not unreasonable in any sense of th word.
to people who dont shoot, of course they think one only needs six rounds. duh.
again the standard for what terrorists do with their abuse of freedom, is not the standard for what law abiding citizens do.
“one case is a thousand rounds. who cares what the tangos, had, active sport shooters can burn through a case pretty quickly.”
As a tangent to that remark, On CNN the talking heads were claiming that neighbors did not report the suspicious activity of the couple filling their garage with weapons and ammunition.
It might help readers put those remarks in perspective by pointing out that a case of ammunition (roughly 1,000 round) is about the size of a shoe box.
Does anyone serious believe they would have trouble, over a period of months, walking 7 or 10 shoe boxes into their home or apartment without the neighbors noticing?
News reports tell us the couple had 4 fire arms – two pistols and two rifles. The pistols could easily be carried in a brief case or any small box about the size of a text book. The 5.56mm AR15 style rifles with collapsing stocks could be placed in any package roughly the size of an umbrella.
The neighbors might have seen something – but it certainly was not the transfer of weapons and ammunition into the house unless the couple wanted the neighbors to see that activity.
So much for the credibility of talking heads and main stream media.
What this country needs is fewer journalist and experts and more reporters who actually go out to gather and verify facts.
Repeal the 2nd amendment? Let’s pull on that string and walk through what it would look like if the citizens did not have the right to keep and bear arms. This would mean the next step would be to confiscate ALL privately-owned guns, right? The Molon Labe folks won’t allow that to happen peacefully and every criminal in the United States will not turn in their weapons.
Then what?
Tom Nash, the issue is how many mass murders French gun regulations have prevented.
Olly……after the repeal of the 2nd Amendment, the next step would be the repeal of the other 9 Bill of Rights amendments.
It’s been pointed out that “we’d all be safer” without the Bill of Rights.
Monty Z – those ‘flyover states’ that liberals like to make fun of will never repeal the 2nd Amendment.
Passive aggressive Nick in full bloom.
Nick, please let’s act as grown ups and not sent another good thread down the drain.
Same for bambam.
My offer still stands.
JT or Darren…..I’m not sure why my 11:29 response to an 11:24 comment appears BEFORE the 11:24 comment.
The constitution must be amended to repeal the Second Amendment. That’s the only way to end this madness.
IMMEDIATELY after the Paris attacks, the French President Hollande, addressed his nation and swore a “MERCILESS” war against ISIS. Our President is focused on the real threat, Global Warming.
CNN is now reporting these radical Islamic terrorists plead allegiance to ISIS, the ISLAMIC caliphate.
I would like to ask if a US Citizen pledges allegance to a foreign power, eg ISIS, is this Treason?
There goes the thread.
BFM, Rental car was leased 3 days prior to assault. They had Go Pro Cameras and videotaped the assault. The investigation will reveal they had another site planned to attack when good police work stopped them.
Can I take a second to give kudos to the cops and to the San Bernadino poilice chief. The man was forthcoming, direct, and handled a horrible situation w/ class.
prof Ninian offers a very insightful breakdown, and BFM asks the right questions.
If anyone is interested in knowing why this is happening, from the perspective of a Muslim, (and not just getting hysterical) just ask, your resident Muslim here.
If you think it is about us and them, you are way off.
Pi – Thank you… I am finishing authoring a book which includes much of this information. It is written for a Western audience assuming zero knowledge of Islam. I’m sure many experts will find much to criticise in its text but it tries to make sense of what is happening and explains the history and reasons for the schism in the Islamic World – for the Western Ear.
I think that the majority of people have little or no interest in politics, regardless of religion. They just want to live their lives have a job and good standard of living and raise their families.
These outrages are carried out by a minority – the Muslim Equivalence of the worst element of White Supremacists.
I cannot emphasise too much, the need for American Muslims, to not only speak out against such heinous crimes, but to be seen to take action and demonstrate their loyalty to the American Flag as loyal Americans and as devout Muslims, who are not prepared to see their faith dragged through the dirt by evil people.
There is now an opportunity to bring all Americans together and to strengthen American resolve and credibility. All Americans should be proud of who they are; what they have achieved; and what extraordinary things they have been given to mankind. What sacrifices they have made for others, and their concepts of Freedom.
Whilst every World Power has made spectacular errors, it has to be said that without America, the world would be a much poorer place.
The same cannot be said for ISIS.
JT has been pummeling his blog with outrageous stories about assaults on 1st amendment rights and he says, “Thalasinos was known to write highly caustic comments about Islam on the Internet.” JT, are you now implying this expression of free speech was some kind of justifiable motive?
It’s encouraging to read a call for reason supported by facts. Unfortunately conclusions were drawn first and now the search for facts is trying to validate the conclusions. This is ‘uncommon core’ politics and while 2+2 is obviously 4, we are witnessing some pretty incredible efforts to make this some other number. This will happen again and I hope all the apologists for this President choke on their calculators.
There is a running theme here, and just about everywhere else –
“Why did Farook and Wife shoot up a party of office coworkers?”
The main two camps this question has polarized into –
1. This is just another office shooter gone postal. That he was Muslim is just coincidental. He was a gun enthusiast who stockpiled ammo, just like any other gun nut.
We have to put more gun restrictions laws into place to curb this kind of violence.
See, we told you this would happen.
2. This is a radical Islamist terrorist, who sleeper-celled himself into American society. His jihadist masters abroad sent him another terrorist Muslim to pose as his wife.
He had a whole arsenal and jihadist bomb-making factory.
We have to be ready to intern all resident Muslims, stop all Muslim immigration, and send troops to bomb
Islam overthere.
See, we told you this would happen.
Here the schism of our political biases laid bare; anti-gun leftists and anti-Islamic rightists.
Each now jockying to justify their positions, and now holding up the very same incident and facts to justify their proposed public policy solutions. Inevitably both set of solutions would curtail the freedoms of everyone.
This incident is just perfect for both camps, a Muslim gun enthusiast who shot up a workplace.
Time will tell if he was a jihadist with a bigger agenda, or a gun nut who went postal on his coworkers for personal grudge reasons.
Or maybe a conflation of both.
Gary T – I would buy a workplace incident were it not for the 3 pipe bombs with remote detonators and 9 more at home. 9000 rounds of ammo is a little much even for a target enthusiast, I would think.
Monty Z. How many have they prevented?
And do you really think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that the 2nd Amendment will be repealed?
We’d have a fuller understanding of the San Berdoo incident and deeper insight into the depths of Saudi depravity with the release of the 28 redacted pages from 9/11Report.
In the end it comes down, of course, to the laws proclaimed by non-existent culturally hallucinated creator entities, particularly the imaginary “Allah.”