Heckler’s Veto: Sixty-Six Percent of College Students Say Stopping Speech Is Free Speech

We have previously discussed the worrisome signs of a rising generation of censors in the country as leaders and writers embrace censorship and blacklisting. The latest chilling poll was released by 2021 College Free Speech Rankings after questioning a huge body of 37,000 students at 159 top-ranked U.S. colleges and universities. It found that sixty-six percent of college students think shouting down a speaker to stop them from speaking is a legitimate form of free speech.  Another 23 percent believe violence can be used to cancel a speech. That is roughly one out of four supporting violence.

Faculty and editors are now actively supporting modern versions of book-burning with blacklists and bans for those with opposing political views. Others are supporting actual book burning. Columbia Journalism School Dean Steve Coll has denounced the “weaponization” of free speech, which appears to be the use of free speech by those on the right. So the dean of one of the premier journalism schools now supports censorship. Free speech advocates are facing a generational shift that is now being reflected in our law schools, where free speech principles were once a touchstone of the rule of law. As millions of students are taught that free speech is a threat and that “China is right” about censorship, these figures are shaping a new society in their own intolerant images.

The most chilling aspect of this story is how many on the left applaud such censorship. A prior poll shows roughly half of the public supporting not just corporate censorship but government censorship of anything deemed “misinformation.”

We discussed this issue recently with regard to a lawsuit against SUNY. It is also discussed in my forthcoming law review article, Jonathan Turley, Harm and Hegemony: The Decline of Free Speech in the United States, 45 Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy (2021).

We have seen how in universities (including state schools) this can turn into a type of “heckler’s veto” where speeches are cancelled in advance or terminated suddenly due to the disruption of protesters. We recently discussed such an incident at State University of New York at Binghamton. The danger is not just that protesters can stop others from speaking but that school authorities can use that speech as a pretext for barring or shutting down events.  The issue is not engaging in protest against such speakers, but to enter events for the purpose of preventing others from hearing such speakers. Universities create forums for the discussion of a diversity of opinions. Entering a classroom or event to prevent others from speaking is barring free speech. I would feel the same way about preventing such people from protests outside such events. However, the concern is not with outdoor events where all groups can be as loud and cantankerous as their voices will bear. Both sides have free speech rights to express. The issue on campus is the entrance into halls, or classrooms to prevent others from hearing speakers or opposing viewpoints by disputing events.

This has been an issue of contention with some academics who believe that free speech includes the right to silence others.  Berkeley has been the focus of much concern over the use of a heckler’s veto on our campuses as violent protesters have succeeded in silencing speakers, even including a few speakers like an ACLU official.  Both students and some faculty have maintained the position that they have a right to silence those with whom they disagree and even student newspapers have declared opposing speech to be outside of the protections of free speech.  At another University of California campus, professors actually rallied around a professor who physically assaulted pro-life advocates and tore down their display.  In the meantime, academics and deans have said that there is no free speech protection for offensive or “disingenuous” speech.  CUNY Law Dean Mary Lu Bilek showed how far this trend has gone. When conservative law professor Josh Blackman was stopped from speaking about “the importance of free speech,”  Bilek insisted that disrupting the speech on free speech was free speech. (Bilek later cancelled herself and resigned after she made a single analogy to acting like a “slaveholder” as a self-criticism for failing to achieve equity and reparations for black faculty and students).

We previously discussed the case of Fresno State University Public Health Professor Dr. Gregory Thatcher who recruited students to destroy pro-life messages written on the sidewalks and wrongly told the pro-life students that they had no free speech rights in the matter.  A district court has now ordered Thatcher to pay $17,000 and undergo First Amendment training.  However, Thatcher remained defiant and the university appeared complicit in his actions by the lack of disciplinary action.

The pro-life students had written messages on the sidewalk like “You CAN be pregnant & successful” and “Unborn lives matter” to “Women need love, NOT abortion.”  Thatcher got students from his 8 a.m. class to help remove the anti-abortion messages and their chalk was taken away to write pro-choice slogans on the sidewalk. The students seem entirely unconcerned that they are censoring speech and engaging in a grossly intolerant act.  Instead, they refer to their teacher as telling them that they should do so.  Thatcher then walked up and confronted the pro-life students.    Thatcher invoked the controversial restriction of free speech to “zones” and says that there is no free speech right for this type of writing outside of that zone.  When the students explain that they have permission, he then proceeds to rub out their messages and declared “you have permission to put it down — I have permission to get rid of it.”

Thatcher is arguing that same Orwellian “Stopping free speech is free speech” position.

A few years ago, I debated NYU Professor Jeremy Waldron who is a leading voice for speech codes. Waldron insisted that shutting down speakers through heckling is a form of free speech. I disagree. It is the antithesis of free speech and the failure of schools to protect the exercise of free speech is the antithesis of higher education. In most schools, people are not allowed to disrupt events. They are escorted out of such events and told that they can protest outside of the events since others have a right to listen to opposing views. These disruptions however are often planned to continually interrupt speakers until the school authorities step in to cancel the event. Some schools (as discussed in the SUNY lawsuit) do not wait in trying to cancel events in anticipation of such hecklers. At SUNY when the speaker insisted on trying to speak to the audience, a protester with a bullhorn was eventually led out of the room. However, he was allowed to simply hand the bullhorn to the next disrupter and eventually the hecklers prevailed as the officials shutdown the event.

Absent enforcement of school rules on such disruptions, there is little hope for the open exchange of ideas and a diversity of opinions on campus. It can unleash a type of tit-for-tat pattern of retaliation as speakers are prevented from speaking on controversial subjects. Our campuses then become little more than screaming matches. The rules of most schools properly draw the line between protests and disruptions. Everyone is allowed to be heard. However, if you enter an enter to disrupt it, you are disrupting free speech.

The added increase in embracing violence is particularly chilling. A quarter of those polled supported violence to prevent others from speaking. This is the core of the philosophy of the Antifa movement. It is at its base a movement at war with free speech, defining the right itself as a tool of oppression. That purpose is evident in what is called the “bible” of the Antifa movement: Rutgers Professor Mark Bray’s Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook. Bray emphasizes the struggle of the movement against free speech: “At the heart of the anti-fascist outlook is a rejection of the classical liberal phrase that says, ‘I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’” Indeed, Bray admits that “most Americans in Antifa have been anarchists or antiauthoritarian communists…  From that standpoint, ‘free speech’ as such is merely a bourgeois fantasy unworthy of consideration.” It is an illusion designed to promote what Antifa is resisting “white supremacy, hetero-patriarchy, ultra-nationalism, authoritarianism, and genocide.” Thus, all of these opposing figures are deemed fascistic and thus unworthy of being heard.

Antifa has a long and well-documented history of such violence. Bray quotes one Antifa member as summing up their approach to free speech as a “nonargument . . . you have the right to speak but you also have the right to be shut up.”

Notably, when George Washington University student and self-professed Antifa member Jason Charter was charged as the alleged “ringleader” of efforts to take down statues in Washington, D.C., Charter declared the “movement is winning.” He is right and this poll shows the success.

161 thoughts on “Heckler’s Veto: Sixty-Six Percent of College Students Say Stopping Speech Is Free Speech”

  1. When “higher” and I use that term loosely education is proven to be more about politics , wokeness and the flavor of the day agendas of the left as well as avoiding critical thinking simply because they claim such higher thinking is “racyss”, pardon my vernacular “racist”.
    In my line of skilled trades work college grads brought on the job to the last one all met their fate in under two months…walked out the door. They were so educated that four years of college could find them no jobs in their chosen profession. The attempted use of hand , eye and brain coordination in mechanical , electrical aspects with mandatory critical thinking ability and a modicum of common sense found them all lacking…badly.
    We are in a sorry state with “mediocre higher learned” tools cranked out like cheap dull knives when the real world needs sharp , industrious yearning to learn mind. American institutions hardly put out any product excepting woke activist dolt that expect a free ride and or big buckos right now….. our future…and the can’t even hardly write their names with a crayon.

    1. I suppose your anecdotal info about college-educated workers not making the cut in a trade they weren’t trained for is interesting but you lose my interest by joking(?) about vernacular “racyss” – grow up

  2. Joe Biden’s Administration has sharply restricted life saving Covid treatments to Republican states. The GOP governors have become growingly alarmed. No evidence has been presented to the governors of any shortage. This grievance can be added to the pile, including the formal complaint by every news organization in the press pool, filed when Joe Biden once again refused to take a single question in his joint press conference with UK Prime minister.

    https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/people-are-going-die-texas-rep-accuses-biden-retaliatory-rationing?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

    “Texas Rep. Chip Roy said a meeting with HHS left him with “more questions than answers” about the “throttling” of supply. Officials, he complained, gave him “crickets” when he asked twice for data on supply and manufacturing capacity compared to demand, and they offered “no clear evidence [of a] current shortage.”

    1. “Joe Biden’s Administration has sharply restricted life saving Covid treatments to Republican states.”

      In early September, Biden threatened Southern governors who would not submit to his decrees:

      “I’ll use my power as president to get them out of the way,”

      And so he has.

      Such are the actions of a petulant child, throwing a fit because Southern governors won’t kowtow to his fascist diktats. It’s payback, in the name of The Revolution. And if innocent Americans suffer — well, omelets and eggs.

      1. Biden is a pretend dictator. I say pretend because those pulling his strings are the wannabe dictators. Abbott of Texas is typical of Republican politicians who easily yield to power. If Abbott stood up, he would have attempted to close Texas borders. I hope Allen West pushes Abbott out.

        As a whole, Republicans are not dependable to protect the rights of American citizens. They will not be the ones to address stopping Biden’s authoritarian actions adequately. The news media is starting to turn, so it looks like Biden will be in trouble in a matter of time. That is when Republicans will follow rather than lead.

        The people need to act, but many ignorant people prefer going the easy path to hell.

  3. What is speech? What is protected speech? Is it anything that comes out of your mouth?…or expanded in the 21st century to encompass all forms of expression, including non-falsifiables like images and video clips chosen/edited to inflame passions? What about deceitful infowarfare?….protected?…..what if it’s anonymous?….what if it intended to use mass media to incite an unknown zealot or crazy person to violent or economic attack of a named target? Is anonymous doxxing protected by the 1st Amendment?

    Who decides the rules about who gets to speak, and who doesn’t in any given gathering? Are moderators violating free speech in guiding the discussion?

    Is there a right to enforce civility?…to manage conflict constructively? Or, does the loudest voice, or most intimidating character get to call the shots? Who teaches the leadership skills of managing conflict constructively? Who never learns those skills?

    These aren’t new problems. They have been struggled with in all human societies.

    The principle that has largely been lost over my lifetime is that certain forms of competition, those with the most at stake and the most passionate actors facing off, benefit from having a neutral referee with the power to set rules of competition as well as the power to enforce them.

    Without a powerful referee to keep the adversaries and process moving in a constructive direction, tremendous energies and time is squandered, and destructive outcomes now are possible. Beware the strident zealot who refuses to debate in a moderated forum, and who rather practices unrestrained infowarfare.

  4. TURLEY SHOULD CONSIDER HIS OWN BLOG

    Liberals posting on these comment threads have known for years that Johnathan Turley not only tolerates, but essentially condones, mean-spirited responses by the blog’s conservative regulars.

    One regular, known as the ‘Blog Stooge’, posts perhaps half the comments on any given day using up to 20 different names. Turley has allowed the Blog Stooge to smear liberals in the most vile of terms. No smear is out of bounds, or so one would think, judging from what Turley has allowed. References to toilets, grinders, pedophilia, body cavities are all totally permissible when hurled by the Blog Stooge. But liberals are ‘not’ allowed to return the stooge’s insults. That’s where Turley draws the line, with regards to blog standards, ‘Liberals are ‘not’ allowed to return insults’.

    Therefore Johnathan Turley is the most ridiculous of sanctimonious hypocrites. For pretending he is shocked, ‘leftist’ students think heckling is okay. Turley’s blog has been a cesspool of vile heckling (by rightwing regulars) for several years at this point.

    And one can be absolutely certain that the first responder to this post will be the Blog Stooge himself using a puppet handle.

    1. “Liberals posting on these comment threads have known for years that Johnathan Turley not only tolerates, but essentially condones, mean-spirited responses by the blog’s conservative regulars.”
      **********************
      Camembert or Roquefort with that?

      1. Mespo,
        I would say based off some of the comments in the Dallas History Professor comments section, it appears that it is not the “conservatives” that engage in mean-spirited responses.
        Do you recall anyone going by the handle Blog Stooge?

        1. Welllllll, Jeff Silverman has threatened several people on the forum in the past few days, and Peter Shill / John Burgoyne / Seth Warner / Svelaz / Paint Chips / Nail Salon Proprietress / West Hollywood Hiker / et al recently wished Trump dead, so you have that to consider.

          1. Estovir claims that I have threatened several people!

            Moi? Prove it!

            I only threaten Trumpists with FACTS.

      2. I’d say he’s actually drinking night train as his “whine” is of a hollow cheap sort. So my guess is he would rather have a bag of cheeto’s to go with his mad dog 20/20 in a paper bag as opposed to Gourmet cheese of any flavor.

  5. No surprise. The pumpkin-heads are taught by Constitutional illiterates, societal misfits and fascists. What do you expect from the dullards who think Noel Coward was a particularly scary Christmas.

    1. “Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.”

      – Democritus
      __________

      “Nothing exists except clauses and empty space; everything else is opinion.”

      – Manifest Tenor

  6. I recently finished reading George Orwell’s 1984. It had been a while. Orwell had uncanny insight into human nature. At the end of the book is an appendix where Orwell describes in detail “Newspeak”. the official language of Oceania. He discusses how Newspeak was planned to completely replace “Oldspeak” by the year 2050 but how it gained ground steadily. The goal was to decrease vocabulary so that it would be difficult for a person to diverge in expression and thinking from the principles of Ingsoc (English Socialism).

    It is fascinating and chilling to read this again in our present environment.

    Unchallenged thinking is simply “group think” another phrase Orwell coined. Now, radical Marxists can mobiles the mobs in a matter of moments with instant emails and social media to rally their mobs to do their bidding. This is not unlike the Brown Shirts (Sturmabteilung) intimidating the German citizenry in the 1920s. Now, their methods are more sophisticated and menacing.

    If this statistic is valid, then it will be a matter of time before a human is recognized as an individual. The unsuspecting soul will find themselves unable to express original that deviates from the prescribed narrative.

  7. No wonder the prosecutors wanted to hide this Brady material. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/capitol-footage-lawsuit-release-insurrection

    They don’t look like rioters; they look like a tour group busy with their selfies.

    I can guess who the few genuine troublemakers at that event were–Pelosi’s goons with an agency that begins with an F and a bunch of Brownshirts whose name begins with an A.

    Our corrupt Deep State was trying to create a Reichstag Fire so they could take action. Funny that they could send a heavily armed SWAT team to arrest a grandfather for taking selfies in the ‘People’s’ building and find more than a dozen agents to investigate a door pull but can never find the assets to check into Tsarnaev Brothers or any of the other terrorists they have overlooked. If everyone in the agency were given pink slips tomorrow the country would probably be safer. Constantine figured that out with the Praetorian Guard and fired all of them He was right.

    After the details in the Durham indictment it is possible to believe anything evil of these people.

    1. Young says without ANY evidence:

      “Our corrupt Deep State was trying to create a Reichstag Fire so they could take action.”

      I’m sad to inform you that you have Stage 4 Trumpism- it’s terminal…

      You say: “ After the details in the Durham indictment it is possible to believe anything evil of these people.”

      Excuse me, but people are saying- a lot of people- are saying that the Durham investigation is a Witch Hunt. I’ll spell it for you:

      W-I-T-C-H H-U-N-T

      Shall I use it in a sentence?

      The Durham Investigation is a Witch Hunt.

      Got it?

        1. Iowan2 says:

          “The Durham Investigation is a Witch Hunt. He says with no evidence.”

          I HAVE evidence-

          People are saying it. Everybody!
          You are going to believe the “Deep State?”

      1. Jiffy , and the Mueller corruption was not a witch hunt born of ginormous political corruption to spear a sitting president ?. Yet Durham is actually finding something…hmmm this must bother you greatly as your gods get tainted by the very corruption they bathe themselves in.

    2. Young:

      Almost all of it was simple trespass. Of course anyone who broke anything or trespassed should be appropriately charged. But this didn’t warrant accusations of sedition, attempts to overthrow the government, insurrection, a threat to democracy, or 8 months of solitary confinement.

      What I’ve noticed is that when I ask Democrats I know what they think about the year of Democrat looting, arson, and rioting, and how that compares to the trespassing on Jan 6th, exactly zero of them have answered the questions. They never want to talk about it. It’s yeah-but-Trump, or they parrot that Jan 6 was an insurrection. But if you ask them why they think disrupting Congress on Jan 6 and taking selfies was an attempt to overthrow the government, they can’t answer. If you ask them about CHOP/CHAZ, the BLM riots, or the millions in property damage and jobs gone for a generation, they can’t answer.

      They deflect. They get flustered. They change the subject. Some Democrats go ad hominem. What could they possibly say?

      The actions on Jan 6 were wrong. But they have not been covered accurately, and the participants have not been treated fairly. 8 months of solitary confinement for trespassing, while people burn down a police precinct with impunity, is not fair or just. This isn’t holding people accountable for their actions. It’s abusing the criminal justice system for political purposes.

      1. Karen,

        No doubt many Democrats are as you describe:

        “They deflect. They get flustered. They change the subject. Some Democrats go ad hominem. What could they possibly say?”

        But I have ALWAYS said throw all BLM and Antifa rioters in jail for breaking the law. I am not deflecting nor changing the subject!

        Now will you answer my questions?

        1. Do you agree with Turley that 1/6 was a “desecration” of the Capitol?

        2. Do you agree with Turley that Trump should have been censured by Congress for his “reckless” speech?

        3. Do you feel let down that Turley has never declared that the election was stolen by massive fraud?

        Are you going to deflect from my questions or just ignore them?

      2. Karen,

        I am not sure even a trespass charge would hold against some of those people. Many were waved in by guards and posed for selfies with guards. It is not trespass if you are invited in by someone with the authority to give you access. That makes you an invitee under the law rather than a trespasser. I actually dealt with a dispute like that once and it was resolved in favor of the invitee, but then it wasn’t part of a big Pelosi scam either and a corrupt DOJ wasn’t involved.

      3. “Almost all of it was simple trespass.”

        Hundreds of people committed crimes that aren’t simple trespass.

        Have you read the charges? If not, I suggest that you read them: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

        “8 months of solitary confinement for trespassing”

        Name the people you believe have been in solitary for 8 months solely for trespass. Then let’s look at the actual charges, why a judge chose not to grant bail, and why they’re in solitary.

        1. “Have you read the charges? ”

          ***
          Do you truly expect a prosecutor not to make the strongest argument he thinks he is able to make, particularly when the prosecutor is in a corrupt DOJ seeking to make a case for insurrection? I don’t, and judges are already beginning to look at some of the claims with a jaundiced eye.

          The charges in judge Ronald Freisler’s court looked pretty solid too. Ditto for Judge Jeffreys. I imagine Torquemada had nice looking paper as well.

          I imagine there is a reason the DOJ fought against releasing the video. Doesn’t look at all like storming the Bastille or the peasants seizing the Tower of London, does it? It does look a hell of a lot like a bunch of tourists. Weed out the FBI and Antifa and possibly nothing would have been broken.

            1. That is a good possibility. It seems a lot of information about the officer has been scrubbed. Why? I heard he was a BLM member without adequate proof, so I didn’t mention it, but now that you bring it up, I agree that it is a good possibility.

              I wonder if others have documented information on that officer who killed Babbitt. Eventually, someone will delve into his history, and we will likely find him to be exactly who you suggest.

              1. How does someone become “a BLM member”? You think people pay a fee and get a membership card, like being a AAA member?

                  1. What bunk. He said “I heard he was a BLM member without adequate proof.” What would be proof of membership? How does someone become a BLM member?

                1. Anonymous the Stupid, your world is a world of ignorance, so I don’t expect you to understand who would be considered a BLM member and who wouldn’t.

                  In order for you to understand anything, you need to see it in bold, underlined and large print. Even then you seem to have problems getting to the point.

                  SM

                  1. So you can’t answer the question — what is proof of membership? — even though you were the one who said “I heard he was a BLM member without adequate proof.”

                    1. Proof of membership comes from the individual’s actions and words. It is simple. You are a BLM sympathizer, or at least you were in the past.

                      Of course, you might agree or deny and say another Anonymous the Stupid, or a pretend friend said those things. You are a goofy type of fellow that desires absolute proof for one side, but uses his own opinion as proof when he wishes to prove a point. Alternatively you will use a link to prove your case, even if it is on a different subject, or is complete nonsense.

                      Stay away as you promised you would do. I know, you will say that promise came from one of your pretend friends.

                      You are an absolute waste of time.

                      SM

                    2. “It is simple. You don’t know what “member” means.”

                      Anonymous the Stupid, check out the meaning of the word member, and then explain how your Stupid statement is correct.

          1. Young continues his pathological lying:

            “It does look a hell of a lot like a bunch of tourists. Weed out the FBI and Antifa and possibly nothing would have been broken.”

            Who am I going to believe?

            Young or my lying eyes witnessing the Trumpist assault on the Capitol police?

            1. “Who am I going to believe? Young or my lying eyes “

              You will believe your lying eyes and translate the lies you see to your lying mouth and keyboard.

  8. THE “STUDENTS” ARE THERE TO LEARN, NOT TO TEACH OR OTHERWISE DEMONSTRATE.
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    “Hyt ys old Englysch sawe: A mayde schuld be seen, but not herd.”

    – Mirk’s Festial, 1450
    _________________

    “Children should neither be seen or heard from – ever again.”

    – W. C. Fields
    ___________

    “the people are nothing but a great beast…

    I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value.”

    – Alexander Hamilton
    _________________

    “The lunatics have taken over the asylum.”

    – Richard A. Rowland

  9. Jonathan: This post is a regurgitation of your previous columns complaining that the threat to “free speech” is coming from the “left”, from university professors and students who want to silence conservatives. As you have done in Congressional testimony you have continually asserted that Antifa is the real villain because, as you say “it is at its base a movement at war with free speech” and is “embracing violence”. So allow me to regurgitate my previous comments.

    The real threat to “free speech”, the threat of violence, comes from the right–not the left. The FBI agrees with this assessment. Leading up to Trump’s attempted insurrection the FBI cited one comment on “TheDonald”, a pro-Trump website, that urged Trump supporters get “violent. Stop calling this a march, or rally, or protest. Go there ready for war. We get our President or we die”. On Jan. 6 far-right fascist groups attacked the Capitol. That was a violent attack on free speech. Some right-wing Republican politicians falsely tried to blame Antifa. No doubt they were influenced by your Congressional testimony. Last summer, during the protests over the murder of George Floyd, Lyle Rittenhouse, a far-right extremist, went to Kinosha, Wis. with an assault rife and shot dead 2 protesters and wounded a third. That was a direct and violent attack on free speech. During Trump’s four years in office anti-Semitic attacks dramatically increased. In 2018 a white supremacist killed 11 Jewish worshippers at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh. That was also a violent attack on the free speech rights of worshippers. Over the years anti-abortion extremists murdered 11 doctors and other health care workers. That is also a direct assault on the free speech rights of women and health care providers.

    None of the above partial list of violent incidents was committed by Antifa or other leftist group. But you keep peddling this false narrative in an apparent attempt to divert attention from the real threats coming from the right. I suppose you have been influenced by Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister. who famously said that if you repeat a lie often enough people will come to believe it.

    1. When the UK Telegraph publishes a piece arguing that the Left, e.g. Biden, have done more damage than Trump, you know you have lost the battle, and this after a mere 8 months as US President.

      Biden and Macron are vandalising the liberal order they claim to love
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/22/biden-macron-vandalising-liberal-order-claim-love/

      Biden’s behaviour has been just as appalling. He no longer has any genuine allies: he sees other countries merely as a means to execute American self-interest, as useful instruments in his foreign policy. There is no respect, let alone friendship or gratitude. Other denizens of the White House at least had the sense to pretend to care; some, such as Ronald Reagan or George Bush, actually did, at least some of the time.

      The Left hailed Macron and Biden as the saviours of the liberal international order; but both men have already done more to trash it than anything Donald Trump ever concocted.

    2. Dennis–
      “The real threat to “free speech”, the threat of violence, comes from the right–not the left. The FBI agrees with this assessment. ”

      ****
      Citing the FBI for proof pretty much destroys your argument. They have nuked their credibility. I doubt it will ever recover.

      1. Young says:

        “Citing the FBI for proof pretty much destroys your argument. They have nuked their credibility.”

        Do you believe Jonathan Turley? Does he profess a belief in the “Deep State”? Have those words EVER passed his lips? Has he ever said “Fake News”?

        Answer!

        Turley abhors Trumpism and its rejection of American jurisprudence and facts.

        I may be an atheist, but I have an abiding faith in law and order. Anyone who believes in a cabal called the “Deep State” is a Trumpist.

    3. It comes from you both. When they’re in power, your arguments become their arguments. And when you’re in power, their arguments become your arguments. You’re both doing the same things when you’re the ones in power, each trying to damage and hurt the other party when its in power. You have both lost, our way.

    4. “the threat of violence, comes from the right–not the left”
      The French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot, Castro’s Cuba, Communist China, Vietnam, North Korea, etc.
      No worries about the Left at all. Just move it along folks.

      1. Please, I realize you’re just an anonymous troll and normally I don’t pay squat to what anonymous trolls have to say but I saw this, and this is the problem right here, regardless of which sides doing it. So stop it. For the love of Pete, stop making up nonsense and speaking it as if were some kind of fact. It makes both sides look ignorant. And it needs to stop somewhere.

        And you can start by not making up nonsense like the Nazi’s were left wing. They were not.

        National Socialism was right wing Fascism as we all learned in grade school and as any dictionary will be happy to explain to you. This is why both parties are at fault in this never ending media manufactured war between the two. Because you both just make up garbage and speak it as if its any basis in reality to fit your narratives. You are correct that there have been plenty of pogroms launched by left wing socialist governments. Just like there have been as many launched from right wing fascist governments. And now we’re seeing the left wing embrace fascism in favor of their own liberal ideologies (the removal of free speech and the introduction of state approved speech), and even appearing to be moving towards communism. The left wing is out of control.

        But you can’t fight lies with more lies. So stop it. If the right wing is going to launch any type of viable alternative to the mess the left wing in power has made in just over a year, then you’re going to have to do better than baby talk. And its baby talk to try to pretend that because they coined the term “National Socialism” as a moniker for Drexler’s party, that it is somehow socialism, any more than the original name Drexler had given it, “The German Workers Party” or “DAP” as it was known (Deutsche Arbeitet Partei) had anything to do with the labor class beyond exploiting them for the fascist oligarchy they were conscripting them into.

        So no. The Nazi’s were not left wing, and stupid arguments to pretend it was just makes the right wing look stupid. So stop it. For the love of sanity, just stop it.

        If you want to present an alternative in this upcoming election and it is my fervent prayer you do, …then you need to start fighting the this new radical left with facts.

        Leave the fiction to them. Otherwise you sound just like them.

        Just two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

        ___________________________________

        Nazis

        NOUN

        Nazis (plural noun)
        historical

        a member of the far-right National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

        derogatory

        a person with extreme racist or authoritarian views.
        synonyms:

        authoritarian · totalitarian · far right-winger · extreme right-winger · rightist · blackshirt · autocrat · nationalist · xenophobe · racist · neofascist · neo-Nazi · corporativist · corporatist · Hitlerite · Mosleyite · Francoist · Falangist

        antonyms:

        democrat · liberal

        Oxford English Dictionary

        1. The Nazi’s were left wing and there was little space between the Communists and National Socialism. I think ole Hitler himself
          admitted to this. Basically people like Hitler didn’t want to be left to deal with bra and girdle production as he had bigger things to
          deal with. He left industry in private hands and told them what to do. But industry was heavily regulated and for all practical
          purposes was an organ of the state. No real difference between a steel mill regulated by the Nazi state and a steel mill run by the
          Soviet state.
          The Nazi’s as right wing was a construction of the Left. In the end, both systems expected the populace to serve the needs of the
          state.

          1. This is why its pointless to talk to a partisan troll. No amount of facts in their face will deter their “opinion” so now we’re stuck with the likes of these.

            On the left, the rewriting of history to make Americans all into pure racists. On the right, rewriting world history to turn the Nazi’s into leftists.

            No amount of facts will deter a partisan brainwashed troll.

            Nazis

            NOUN

            Nazis (plural noun)
            historical

            a member of the far-right National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

            derogatory

            a person with extreme racist or authoritarian views.
            synonyms:

            authoritarian · totalitarian · far right-winger · extreme right-winger · rightist · blackshirt · autocrat · nationalist · xenophobe · racist · neofascist · neo-Nazi · corporativist · corporatist · Hitlerite · Mosleyite · Francoist · Falangist

            antonyms:

            democrat · liberal

            Oxford English Dictionary

            1. Chris, forget the everyday talk that has incorrectly labeled the Nazi movement to the right. It is National Socialism and very much on the left. It came from the left. Mussolini’s Fascism came from the left. Look at those who created the original ideas. In Italy, it was Giovani Gentile who created Italian Fascism and wrote the material for Mussolini’s book. His ideas are substantially Marxist.

              Big Government: Communism, socialism, Fascism, nazism
              Small government: classical liberal (not today’s Liberal), libertarian, most people called conservatives.

              Restricted freedom of speech: Communism, socialism, Fascism, nazism
              Free speech: classical Liberal (not today’s Liberal), libertarian, most people called conservatives.

              Government and industry working together: Communism, socialism, Fascism, nazism
              Private property: classical Liberal (not today’s Liberal), libertarian, most people called conservatives.

              Skip the terms others want you to use and look at policy instead.

            2. Chris Weber, at the time of the National Socialist German Workers Party, and Fascism, “liberalism” referred to strong individual rights with limited government intrusion. Very few people who identify as Liberal today ascribe to that view. It’s closer to Libertarianism now.

              Gentile made numerous comments against Liberalism, because obviously he would oppose strong individual rights and limited government in his development of Fascism.

              Academia has long been an institution of the Left. Socialism and communism has a great deal more support among academics than it does among the general population. Staff are overwhelmingly Democrat.

              The idea that Nazism and Fascism were exclusively right wing phenomenon, regardless of the “Socialist” in the Nazy party name, was promoted by the Left wing academia.

              Gentile was heavily influenced by socialism, however he disagreed with the inevitability of class warfare. He set the good of Italy as the goal, rather than the good of the proletariat. The mechanism to attain that goal required the erosion of individual rights to strengthen the government for the “common good”, in this case defined as the good of Italy.

              Nazism was similar, only it added homicidal antisemitism, eugenics, which is a progressive idea, and the goal was the good of Germany.

              The American right believes in limited government and strong individual rights, what would be considered “liberalism” at that time. Gentile and Hitler eschewed liberalism.

              Nationalism itself can be either good or bad. Ghandi and Nelson Mandela were staunch nationalists. Patriotism used to be a common unifier between the parties, but nowadays patriotism is more often attributed to the right. Patriotism can be good or bad, depending upon how it is expressed. Again, Ghandi and Mandela were patriotic.

              Both Left and Right wing want to push Nazism and Fascism as far away from “their side” as possible. This is understandable, as both were repugnant.

              However, which side, left or right, would allow Nazism or Fascism to arise if it held full power?

              The modern American right, conservatives, seek limited government, and robust individual rights. We honor the Constitution. We believe in freedom, especially free speech. Although we might comment that we don’t like what someone does or says, we believe they usually have the right to do it.

              The modern American left is authoritarian. They frequently rely on force to get their way. It’s not enough that a guy can claim to be a girl. A baker has got to custom bake a cake stating that a man can become a woman, or else he will be sued, harassed, and ever effort will be made to impoverish him. The Left is regularly against free speech. Antifa is the most extreme of this subset. Big Tech, academia, Hollywood, and the public education system, all institutions of the modern Left, censor conservatives, black list them, harass them, and sometimes threaten violence. Cancel culture. Autonomous zones where they seize control. Brownshirt behavior. Destruction of art and statues with which they disagree. Assaulting political dissidents who wear a MAGA hat. If people recovered from covid and have immunity, but they have not been vaccinated, they can be denied access to public spaces, fired, castigated, scolded. There is talk of denying medical services. Joe Biden recently curtailed life saving Covid treatment to red states.

              Traditional values that lead to success – responsibility, punctuality, not having kids outside of wedlock, studying, that’s all deemed whiteness, while a culture of failure is ludicrously deemed black culture. That must come as a shock to successful black people, such as the Obamas themselves, who don’t practice that “black culture.” This is reminiscent of the Red Army destroying art and traditions.

              If you review Left behavior you will notice that it often employs force and mandates. Common Core, responsible for lowering math college readiness, is mandated by Blue states. The teachers union opposes charter schools, so it gets its paid politicians to pass anti-charter legislation. It seeks to force parents to send their children to failing public schools.

              Antisemitism is rife among Leftists. Far left Congresspeople like Rashida Tlaib are even fighting against funding Israel’s Iron Dome. It’s a purely defensive mechanism that protects civilians from incoming missile strikes. The only possible result of defending the Iron Dome would be more Israeli dead. That’s an antisemitic move to restart the Holocaust. Pro Palestinian anti Israeli and antisemitism are becoming so common among the Left that Jewish people are getting harassed. There were myriad attacks on Jews and Jewish businesses by BLM and other Leftists during the Summer of Lefist Rage.

              The list is long, but this post is long enough.

              One of the reasons why so many today call Nazism and Fascism a Left wing ideology is because it would be impossible for either to arise under modern American conservatism, but likely for similar authoritarian regimes to arise under Leftism.

              1. Karen keeps it up:

                “The modern American left is authoritarian. They frequently rely on force to get their way.”

                Trumpist Tucker Carlson took his show to Hungary to sing the praises of authoritarian Victor Orban. Trump looked the other way after the autocratic Saudi Prince murdered the American Journalist. Don’t you dare lecture Democrats about embracing authoritarians!

                You say:

                “Left, censor conservatives, black list them, harass them, and sometimes threaten violence. Cancel culture.”

                Liz Cheney cancelled. Trumpists blacklisting anybody who refuses to lie for Trump as a RINO.

                You say: “Brownshirt behavior.“

                Charlotte March in which the Trumpists shouted “Jews will not replace us; Jews will not replace us.”

                You say:

                “One of the reasons why so many today call Nazism and Fascism a Left wing ideology is because it would be impossible for either to arise under modern American conservatism, but likely for similar authoritarian regimes to arise under Leftism.”

                Trumpism and it’s “Fake News” lie is being embraced by authoritarians around the world. Trumpism manufactures doubt about the integrity of our election systems not unlike the Tobacco companies of old which created doubt about the dangers of smoking until their lives were finally exposed in courts of law. Trumpism is finally getting its comeuppance in court. Networks and people are being sued for defamation, lawyers are being sanctioned and disciplined for perpetuating a fraud, and tell-all books by insiders are exposing the sea of lies of Trump.

                Trumpism is by no means in the same category as Nazism though it will end up on the same scrap heap of history. BUT former Trumpists, like former Nazis, WILL one day PRETEND that they were NEVER members of the Trumpist party!

                Nein! Neimals!

                1. “Trumpist Tucker Carlson took his show to Hungary to sing the praises of authoritarian Victor Orban. ”

                  It appears Victor Orban is much less authoritarian than President Biden, and he is doing a better job for Hungary and its people.

                  Let’s see, Trump was efficiently managing illegal immigration. Orban did the same. Joe Biden is encouraging illegal immigration and, while doing so, costing the lives of the immigrants, increasing drug trafficking (killing our own young), spreading Covid, permitting murderers and rapists to run free, etc.

                  That is who Jeff is, a supporter of those that help kill our children with drug trafficking. He also supports spreading Covid around the country etc.

                  Does anyone need to know more about Jeff?

          2. And for the record, no one is arguing that the democrats have not recently “adopted” many of the policies and strategies of fascism along with the stirrings of what sounds like communism. But inventing baby talk to talk about history just makes whatever side doing it, look stupid.

            For Pete’s sakes read a book. They weren’t all written by the liberals.

            The Nazi’s were right wing fascists and were the day they started, and that was never an obscure fact until the trolls appeared on the internet.

            1. Chris, did you ever read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? I read it when I was a kid. It was huge, but one of the most informative books I ever read. I looked it up on Amazon and found it is now in Audible for a repeat look on long drives or for free on Kindle if you have Amazon Prime.

              Treat yourself to a great piece of history.

            2. Chris, are you saying that Democrats have incorporated aspects of Fascism and communism, yet you still believe the latter are right wing?

              One of the problems is that the definition of terms have changed. Gentile hated Liberalism, but Liberals today identify as the Left. In Gentile’s time, Liberalism referred to limited government and strong individual rights. It’s called Classical Liberalism, to differentiate it from the Illiberal Liberals of today.

              Modern conservatives have nothing in common with Fascism, Socialism, or Communism. The modern Left does.

              Hence why Fascism is considered by many to actually fall along the Left spectrum.

              For me, Left and Right hinge upon the government’s role in society. Strong government + limited individual rights = Left. Limited government + strong individual rights = Right.

              You might not agree with this, but at least you will understand the reasoning.

        2. Chris: “And you can start by not making up nonsense like the Nazi’s were left wing”

          Maybe we should dispense with Left Wing and Right Wing and adopt Totalitarian and Liberty. The Nazis, Communists, Democrats, Socialists and the like all exhibit totalitarian tendencies. Classical Liberals and Constitutional Republicans are Liberty oriented.

          There, fixed it.

          But the Nazis were left wing. Sometimes you have to believe someone when they tell you who they are. They said they were socialists. Europe made a big mistake in not taking Hitler’s Mein Kampf at face value–he really meant it. Believe them.

          Saying that the Nazis exploited the working class proves they were not left wing is absolute nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the Soviets and East German Communist governments didn’t exploit the working class? It wasn’t the politburo and nomenclatura types risking their lives to get over the wall to freedom; it was working class people.

          The leftist claim that the Fascists and Nazis were right wing is a propaganda effort to wipe the blood spilt by those thugs from the Communist governments. China and Soviet Russia killed even more. Killing for the greater good has been in the blood of the left at least since Rousseau.

          By the way in Berlin Diary and Rise and Fall of the Third Reich William Shirer was amazed that Communists and Nazis sometimes acted in concert and that when it was convenient many Communists and socialists joined the Nazi party. Their street fights early on were fights between rival gangs of thugs for the same power, not great ideological differences. Fights between factions prove nothing. Is Trotsky Right Wing now? No he was another Commie killed by other Commies.

          1. Resolved: the liberal news organizations are Commies.

            Florida’s new surgeon general has promoted COVID misinformation
            Gainesville Sun editorial

            https://www.gainesville.com/story/opinion/2021/09/22/editorial-floridas-new-surgeon-general-promotes-covid-misinformation/5811749001/

            He previously worked at the University of California at Los Angeles, with his research focusing on such topics as HIV and smoking…</em

            Ok, maybe they are Nazis.

            😜

              1. In Mein Kampf, Mein Kampf (literally translated “My Struggle”), Hitler was all about socialism.Stanford Encyclopedia of SocialismSocialist PrinciplesSocialists have deployed ideals and principles of equality, democracy, individual freedom, self-realization, and community or solidarity. Regarding equality, they have proposed strong versions of the principle of equality of opportunity according to which everyone should have “broadly equal access to the necessary material and social means to live flourishing lives” (Wright 2010: 12; Roemer 1994a: 11–4; Nielsen 1985). Some, but by no means all, socialists construe equality of opportunity in a luck-egalitarian way, as requiring the neutralization of inequalities of access to advantage that result from people’s circumstances rather than their choices (G.A. Cohen 2009: 17–9). Socialists also embrace the ideal of democracy, requiring that people have “broadly equal access to the necessary means to participate meaningfully in decisions” affecting their lives (Wright 2010: 12; Arnold n.d. [OIR]: sect. 4). Many socialists say that democratic participation should be available not only at the level of governmental institutions, but also in various economic arenas (such as within the firm). Third, socialists are committed to the importance of individual freedom. This commitment includes versions of the standard ideas of negative liberty and non-domination (requiring security from inappropriate interference by others). But it also typically includes a more demanding, positive form of self-determination, as the “real freedom” of being able to develop one’s own projects and bring them to fruition (Elster 1985: 205; Gould 1988: ch. 1; Van Parijs 1995: ch. 1; Castoriadis 1979). An ideal of self-realization through autonomously chosen activities featuring people’s development and exercise of their creative and productive capacities in cooperation with others sometimes informs socialists’ positive views of freedom and equality—as in the view that there should be a requirement of access to the conditions of self-realization at work (Elster 1986: ch. 3). Finally, and relatedly, socialists often affirm an idea of community or solidarity, according to which people should organize their economic life so that they treat the freedom and well-being of others as intrinsically significant. People should recognize positive duties to support other people, or, as Einstein (1949) put it, a “sense of responsibility for [their] fellow men”. Or, as Cohen put it, people should “care about, and, where necessary and possible, care for, one another, and, too, care that they care about one another” (G.A. Cohen 2009: 34–5). Community is sometimes presented as a moral ideal which is not itself a demand of justice but can be used to temper problematic results permitted by some demands of justice (such as the inequalities of outcome permitted by a luck-egalitarian principle of equality of opportunity (G.A. Cohen 2009)). However, community is sometimes presented within socialist views as a demand of justice itself (Gilabert 2012). Some socialists also take solidarity as partly shaping a desirable form of “social freedom” in which people are able not only to advance their own good but also to act with and for others (Honneth 2015 [2017: ch. I]).

                https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/socialism/#SociPrin

                1. Chris,

                  Socialism, Fascism, Nazism, Communism all talk about the same game and always end up the same way. Less freedom and more misery. How many times do you want to try that oft failed experiment?

                  Plato, by the way, was given the opportunity to try his ideas on the city of Syracuse. He was hailed; then he was driven out.

                  You seem a bit absorbed by dictionaries. Put them aside. Facts rule the world, not dictionaries. Instead of hearing Fascist or Socialist or Communist and looking them up in a dictionary to see what they are ‘supposed’ to be, look at what they actually do. You will find they are remarkably alike in their results, varying in degree rather than quality.

          2. The farmers and their children who died in the Holodomor certainly felt exploited. They weren’t allowed to eat the wheat they grew. It belonged to the State.

          3. This is why we are stuck in gear spinning and will continue and why its pointless to talk to these anonymous partisan trolls. .

            No they were not left wing and when you argue with the dictionary, the same dictionaries and reference materials handed down by our parents who fought the war then you just end up sounding like what you are. A radical partisan blinded by their need to constantly prove the “other side” wrong.

            I keep hoping one side or the other will find their way again but its a hope in waiting. Especially when neither side realizes they’re saying the same thing as the other just with different summations. Of course the Nazi’s had left wing attributes just as the leftists constantly display right wing values.

            You both do the exact same things and you both have the same relationship with the truth as each other. Which is fluid depending on what point you’re trying to make.

            f the history books and reference materials disagree with your goal, then you just burn them in effigy like you did where tonight with the Oxford English Dictionary declaring them “conspiracies'” of the other side. . The fact books must be wrong because they don’t agree with your facts.

            Its the same nonsense and baby talk the left wing trolls and partisan hacks try to sell. But it won’t change the facts. Which are the very same facts we got in the definitely not-liberal classrooms and texts books of the 1960s that I was schooled in, and the same dictionaries and reference materials our Parents who served in the war used. And they weren’t written by liberals to sell some evil nutjob kooky conspiracy nonsense.

            I grew up the son of a WWII era vet, and the nephew of war heroes, like my Godfather, my uncle Bill who fought at the Bulge, and I spent my youth learning and studying the rise and fall of Nazi Germany (and everything else in the European theater during WWII) because of it .My family came from Europe in 1928 to escape the rise of “right wing Fascism” which was spreading into their lives. They weren’t Jewish, but we had Jewish relatives (the Spaans) and all came over prior to National Socialists gaining a majority in the Parliament and several of the sons went overseas to fight, my Dad not one of the ones to go overseas, instead serving stateside right here at FT Myer in Virginia as an MP with the 703rd Military Police Battalion, company A.

            I learned German by the time I was 15 so I could read the Reichstag speeches in book form, and I still remember the looks I got when I checked out “Mein Kampf” in 1977 from the local Library so I could understand what drove such fascism. I can speak it conversationally to this day, and understand much of it and I still study the war all these years later. I don’t need tips for any reading up on it especially from anonymous partisans who can’t see past their own parties talking points and nonsense.

            And when you argue with the dictionary as if it were some liberal conspiracy you sound like what you are.

            A partisan hack so blinded by their rage to prove the “other side” wrong that they’ll make up any nonsense even rewriting the history books and dictionaries, calling them “conspiracies of the other side” to bend truth to fit their narrative. .

            The Nazi’s were right wing fascists, and no amount of rewriting the dictionaries or promulgating lunatic conspiracy theories will change that. Doesn’t mean the liberals can’t act like Nazis, and they are starting too, but you guys acted like them too with your scene straight out of the Beer Hall Putsch last year. You see what you want to see in yourselves, and you see in the other guys what you want to believe about them to justify your hatred of them and eventual desire to slaughter them and “cleanse the world of them” as we hear every day in right wing blogs and forums and now more and more in left wing ones. Its evil on both sides and both sides are so married to it, that they just can’t seem to get a divorce so they lie, cheat and do whatever they can to “stick it” to the other side.

            You’re two sides of the same 2 headed coin. Doesn’t matter which side you flip it to, it always comes up exactly the same.

            1. “when you argue with the dictionary, the same dictionaries and reference materials handed down by our parents who fought the war then you just end up sounding like what you are. A radical partisan blinded by their need to constantly prove the “other side” wrong.”

              Chris, what makes you think that Dictionaries don’t change the meanings of their words? Did you ever look at how dictionaries change definitions? Did you ever track the meanings of singular words? You hear the term Liberal, but there are two meanings for that word. There is the classical liberal that believes in freedom of speech and the progressive that suddenly adopted the word Liberal and now wants to restrict freedom of speech. A liberal has two opposite ideological positions. Do you really want to hold onto the idea that dictionaries are sacred God-given idols to worship at?

              Take a look at this article (random search).

              Merriam-Webster Is Changing The Definition Of Racism To Reflect Systemic Oppression

              https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2020/06/11/merriam-webster-is-changing-the-definition-of-racism-to-reflect-systemic-oppression/?sh=6e9b27dd400f

              You are a hard worker, and someone used your Internet work product in a way you didn’t want it used. Progressives took the work product of classical liberals and used their name, Liberal, to lie, cheat and steal. Understand Professor Turley, concerning the Constitution, is a classical liberal, not a Liberal (with a capital L denoting a name, not a philosophy) even though he is an avowed Democrat. That is why there are so many nasty comments coming from the leftist Democrats on the blog, yet those that are “on the right” support Democrat Turley as he defends the Constitution and freedom of speech.

              [Take note the agreement you are seeking is there. It is between Professor Turley’s belief in the Constitution and those that support freedom and individualism.]

        3. Chris:

          Communist China exploits workers. You do know about the forced labor of the Uyghur, as well as notes written pleading for help, hidden in goods manufactured in Chinese factories, right?

          Were you aware of the exploitative nature of Socialism and Communism? Under both, there is created an elite ruling class. They had their own telephone lines to get special supplies, while the rest of the population waited in bread lines at empty stores. The ruling class lived great under Socialist and Communist rule.

          Look at how the wealthy Maduro family live in Venezuela while the population collectively loses weight on the Socialism diet.

          I will grant you that Socialism’s stated goal is the welfare of the working class, no matter how badly the working class suffers under Socialism. The stated goal of Nazism was the good of Germany and the Aryan race, and the goal of Fascism was the good of Italy. However, all 3, Socialism, Nazism, and Fascism relied upon a totalitarian government, at the expense of individual rights, for the “common good” as defined by said government. These are all aspects of the Left.

          The modern Left is interested in Globalism rather than any one nation. It’s goals are bigger. Its methods the same.

        4. I’ve long since given up

          No matter how long either sides partisan cowboys in here circle their logic wagon trains in this perpetual whirlpool of mental manure they’ve been doing donuts in for the past few decades, the last one leaving the deepest trenches…. it won’t change truth. Nor will rewriting history books and reference materials to fit their own sides narratives in these blogs and chat rooms, as the originals stayed undeterred.

          The Nazi’s were right wing fascists in the 1960s just like they were n the 30s and that didn’t change with the times. We learned that in school then and the definitions haven’t changed in my lifetime.

          The make believe facts the liberals and conservatives spin on any given day in chatrooms and online blogs and among themselves not withstanding.

          Until people from one side or the other (or ideally from both) step up and take a look within, then we’ll always be stuck in the mud.

          Channeling Shakespeare ala Murrow; “Cassius was right. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”

          Rings true now more than ever.

          The answers will come when people stop echoing their party lines especially when its nonsense like claiming Nazis were leftists, or equally infantile babble like we fought the revolutionary war so we could keep black people as slaves, .. until they stop shoveling crap like this and start taking a serious look within, …then nothing without will ever improve.

          Not ever.

          Good night, and good luck.

          1. “No matter how long either sides partisan cowboys in here circle their logic wagon trains…”

            Chris, you are wrong. Those logic wagons are circling you and not permitting you to look at any of the facts. We indeed have two sides that are battling, and they are much the same. Those are our politicians.

            However, what you are not looking at is what others stand for.

            What do you stand for?

            Do you stand as part of the Borg Community, or are you free?
            Are you an individual, or are you a group?
            Do you want the government dictating what you do that affects only you?
            Do you believe in free speech?

            You can complain all you want and insist that things are the way you see them, but that doesn’t help you move past things. It keeps you stagnant forever and forever.

          2. This is why its pointless, right there. These fanatical partisan hacks, …trolls…who sit in here all day will endless argue about anything and everything until they are literally arguing the meaning of the word “is”

            Its all troll speak, i.e. baby talk. Invent meaning to words contradictory to their actual meaning, to fit what they want to “believe”. Like a toddler does.

            Same thing the Nazi’s did in fact. Who cares what the dictionaries say? Who cares what the book that defines our LANGUAGE says. We just invent new language, new meanings. Like trying to draw me into a debate now over what “right wing” means, which is a routine strategy of these partisan hacks to try to steer you off topic and get lost in an endless debate over the meanings of words, always of course in contradiction to their actual meaning. But I won’t bite beyond dismissing it as what it is. Baby talk. Partisan fanatics spouting baby talk to sell their party line.

            My point wasn’t about Nazi’s being right wing. It wasn’t about that at all. And anyone with a 4th grade reading level can readily discern that.

            My point stands. In fact this troll here exalted my point .

            My statements are clear and consistent and won’t be muddied by some toddler of a troll babbling baby talk to argue against the dictionary. the Thesauruses, text books and the facts, including recordings of most of Hitler’s Reichstag Speeches where he openly railed against the leftists, liberals Social Democrats and ethnic minorities as well as immigrants. Its written in stone, and some troll in a blog won’t change it.

            The Nazi’s railed against the Leftists, Social Democrats, ethnic minorities and Immigrants. (4 of the points in the “25 point plan” dealt with introducing new law to oppress migrants and immigrants a chief talking point of the right wing then and the trolls in here from both parties, the Nazi propagandists, changed age old definitions of words in books and reference materials to fit the new social order.

            But none of that was my point. My point was clear. We can’t move forward as long as we have fools spouting nonsense like Mussolini and his National Fascist Party/Republican Fascist Party that began in 1922 and ran until we ended the war in 45, was “leftist”.

            They killed the leftist, but to a partisan fanatic troll, ….its “nuh huh they were leftists because “I” say so”. (“…and I say so cuz my party says so”)

            No they weren’t, any more than the Nazi’s who rounded up and butchered the leftists were. And only a fool would argue otherwise. And certainly wouldn’t graduate any history course in any educational system worldwide. Because they’d be wrong.

            But again that’s not my point.

            The point is clear. Both sides are lost in a sea of never ending bulls$# to sell their parties lines, and neither has a firm relationship with reality or facts. Or truth. And the trolls have proven that here with this nonsense trying to rewrite the history of the rise of right wing Fascism in Europe, that my family fought against, as now left wing. .Because they say so….

            They rest my case.

            1. It’s certainly reasonable to point out Nazi’s and Communists had no problem killing their own populations for political purposes, yet they were on opposite sides of the war. Both had the same objective: world domination, yet again they fought each other in the effort to achieve the same goal. Whether 80 years after the fact either is referred as Left or Right really means nothing now. Both believed Authoritarian/Totalitarian Government was the ‘solution’ against people being free to choose freely their leaders, their form of government…even to freely choose whom to befriend.

              It seems we’re reliving 1930’s Germany in the United States and other parts of the world today with no expectation of achieving a different result. I can only add, I’m not a fan of living this way.

              1. Well at least your response is reasoned, but the fact is it’s not pointless to remember our history and just because political partisans are inventing meanings for long standing terms to change that history to fit their narrative doesn’t negate those definitions nor alter them.

                My point is clear and regardless of whining from trolls like Sam who want me to be sucked into the argument this losing track of my position and points being made, just reinforce it.

                “Winning the argument” is impossible with partisan fanatics like these because both sides shout down the facts in favor of the make believe nonsense they invent to sell their “side” of it. Debating with such is a fools errand, not simply because it’s impossible to ‘win” such a debate, which would be akin to debating with a 3 year old as their logic is the logic of a toddler, i.e. no logic but what they declare in spite of all facts to the contrary, even trying to rope an unsuspecting commenter into debating the very names of the ideologies. It’s an endless circle of back and forth “nuh uh’s” until one gets tired enough to leave so the other can declare”victory”. But there is no victory. No “win”. Because it’s the argument itself that’s corrupt.

                The problem is the argument, and until a person steps outside of that its impossible to see this forest through the trees.

                The only way to win this struggle between the right and the left wing in our country, is to not become part of it. Which is why my words don’t change. Be sure the truths I am speaking don’t change, regardless of some anonymous trolls bemoaning that fact like Sam just did, or whoever that anonymous trolls name really is.

                The arguments the problem. Until people realize that and learn to step outside of it, nothing will ever improve.

                1. Agreed. Remembering history is vital to prevent repeating it. That’s something today’s ‘woke’ do not have any concept…to compare previous ‘wokenesses’ and the results of it. What I mean today is whether we label someone Left or Right with regards to governments in the past doesn’t solve today’s problems. Conditions are nearing the same reality as in the past. There are people who’ve been taught Marxism as the savior of humanity without telling them how many people were murdered based on his theories or how racist he actually was. Those folks haven’t been around long enough to see their own freedoms are very much threatened by the same ideology they admire. Even the word “Socialist” is near having the same impact as calling someone racist; it’s losing its meaning due to so much overuse. So why have a passion-enflamed argument about the shifting meanings of specific words? The best one can do is let the annoying parts of uncivil conversations fall so the core of the issue can be debated instead.

                2. Chris, If one wants to look at history one can look back at the great minds you discarded when you drew your conclusions.

                  Adam Smith Wealth of Nations 1776 18th century
                  Bastiat 19th century
                  Hayek 20th century
                  Milton Friedman 20th century

                  Do those people not know what they are talking about as well?

                  1. I didn’t draw any conclusions troll, and I’m done responding to illiterate trolls who can’t or won’t read.

                    1. Chris, what makes you think I don’t read? I provided you a list of names from the 18th century to the present who were instrumental in developing a free marketplace. Did you never hear their names before?

                      Why do you insult me when I never insulted you?

                      You repeat your personal experiences unchanged from childhood and unchanged each time you repeat them. Does that mean your mind is fixed from the first moment, never to think again?

                      I noted you got angry when some didn’t know you were a tree cutter or whatever you call yourself. Some people, including myself, have had similar problems and provided our experiences because we didn’t know your expertise. Immediately you jumped on those people just who were trying to be good neighbors. Why? What makes you this angry and inflexible?

                      Just to let you know, I was in an area where there were many large trucks on the streets, so I asked them what they were doing. The electric company hired them to cut down trees that were intruding on the electrical lines. It is funny, but that is what some were saying at the time. By the way, the electric company paid for the work.

                    2. Give it a rest troll. My words don’t change every time an anonymous partisan troll rewrites them to split hairs and obfuscate their meanings. They aren’t changing because they’re the truth.

                      And I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about with the power company but if you’re still insulting my intelligence by trying to lecture me on how to do my job then you can rest assured when It comes to tree work, when I want the opinion of some know nothing armchair warrior, I’ll give it to you. I know my job troll.

                      As for your continued attempts to ignore what I wrote and instead try to get me to argue with you over the inane attempts to label the Nazis leftists against all facts, again…when I want the opinion of some anonymous hairsplitting double talking troll I’ll give it to you.

                      And with regards to your whining about the tone of my responses, which grows sullier each time I have to respond to the same ignorant attempts to goad me into a debate over something other than my point, I’ll do you a solid and pass along a word of advice handed down to me by my Father that was given him by his.

                      …”if you don’t like it,.. then don’t come lookin for it.”

                    3. “Give it a rest troll.”

                      OK Chris, we now know what you are. I can’t help it if you haven’t read or understand the great libertarians and writers behind the free-market theory.

                      No, I wasn’t trying to lecture you about the job you do. As I previously wrote, I respect your type of work, but you wrongfully attacked those that didn’t know what you did for a living. All anyone said was to call the power company. That is what I do when trees get in the way. They cut down things at their cost. That is what they were doing when I was visiting a friend recently. Multiple trucks made sure the power lines weren’t interfered with. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, but I have said nothing that you should be upset about.

                      I am not ignoring what you said. I pointed out a lot of literature on the subject predating the disputes that disgust you and probably many of us, including myself.

                      I have experience with the Nazis in a personal fashion as well, so you don’t need to provide your credentials. I am not hair-splitting. I offered three significant differences between the left, socialist, Nazi and fascist governments and classical liberalism. I didn’t ask to argue or even convince you.

                      I didn’t whine about the tone of your arguments. Your attacks, however, are of the nature that one should avoid unless you have been personally attacked. That is your bad.

                      You are on a discussion list. You need not talk to me or anyone else, but that doesn’t stop anyone from responding to what you write.

                      I have a name, though you might not recognize it. Sometimes with one specific person, in particular, I use the anonymous label. That is telling people that the discussion is a waste of time and worthless. They can save time by not reading any anonymous garbage.

                      If something is not particularly interesting to others or me, I use my initials SM. I also use that when insults start to fly.

                      When I wish to be heard, I consistently use S. Meyer, but you can remain high up in your tree and ignore me as you want.

                      Have a nice day.

                  1. As for this troll and his alter egos which no doubt he has several in here, the opinions of some anonymous troll(s) whose doesn’t even think enough of his own words to put his name behind them, mean just as little to me.

                    This is why I usually walk away and don’t bother to give them even the courtesy of responding to their inane attempts to drag me I to their cesspool of circular logic and endless debate over every hair they can split to obscure and reframe others positions and comments to fit their own narrative. Invariably whenever I do I’m forced to restate my words over and over until they finally get frustrated and reduce to attacking my character and intelligence, like this one here (which is funny as he’s responding to a comment I made to a troll calling itself Seth Myers yet a minute later he responds upset calling me a bully,…i.e. two names,…one troll…) calling me a “pseudo intellectual”, even though I’ve stated openly since day 1 that I’m not a scholar or any kind of intellectual, I cut trees for a living. Superfluous insults like that just demonstrate the trolls level of frustration at not being able to draw me in.

                    So last word on this one as I’m unsubscribing to this thread so I don’t have to see anymore of your nonsense this weekend in my inbox. So listen good troll(s).

                    When I want the opinions of some anonymous hairsplitting trolls, I’ll give it to you.

                    1. ” I made to a troll calling itself Seth Myers “

                      Chris, It is S. Meyer. Sam is a different person with different positions from my own. I prefer serious discussions to be with named persons. How do we know you aren’t trolling around with another name? We don’t, but you assume the worst in others that never attacked you.

                    2. “As for this troll . . .”

                      Those who disagree with you are “trolls.” Those who ask legitimate questions, that you cannot answer, are “trolls.” Those who cite works by actual scholars are “trolls.”

                      Schoolyard taunts betray a child’s intellectual impotence.

                      The sad part is this: You raised a serious and important question about how to classify political ideologies over the last 150 years. (Which is, by the way, a discussion we’ve had — on perfectly civilized terms — numerous times on this blog.) However, when some challenged your calcified thinking, you degenerated into childish insults.

              2. Casual: “[Nazis and Communists] were on opposite sides of the war”

                —–

                I agree with your comment so I don’t want to seem to nitpick when I say that Nazis and Communists were allies at the outset of WW II attacking Poland. The Left wants us to forget that. Both committed atrocities.

            2. Chris, you are dealing with the political fights that exist. You aren’t dealing with the philosophy behind those fights. A lot of those involved in the fighting cannot defend their philosophy and lie.

              Deal with the philosophy and learn the difference. Right now all I see is an abundance of words and repetition of what you think you know.

              Stalin killed Trotsky. Does that mean Trotsky was on the right?

              SM

        5. “National Socialism was right wing Fascism . . .”

          Why?

          What made it “right wing?”

          And don’t say the “dictionary” or your school teacher. What facts about its policies made it “right wing?” And what does “right wing” even mean?

    5. Hey Dennis,

      “None of the above partial list of violent incidents was committed by Antifa or other leftist group. But you keep peddling this false narrative in an apparent attempt to divert attention from the real threats coming from the right. I suppose you have been influenced by Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister. who famously said that if you repeat a lie often enough people will come to believe it.”
      *******************************
      What’s it like to be in the fragile “majority”? See what I did there? Yep Godwin’s Law to the rescue.

      https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/23/nolte-donald-trump-trounces-joe-biden-by-ten-points-in-2024-rematch/

    6. Denise the menace ; Thanks for the laughs. It’s encouraging to see you leftnazis circle the burning wagons. Gives us a hint the end is near for this leftism charade. We know it’s socialism…we smell it’s stink , hardly different than dog feces stuck on a man’s shoe. There will come a time when a caring man will clean his shoe off. And what pray tell then will the mumbling leftists do ?. The left has proven their distain for individual thoughts and rights. It’s all about group think and do what we tell you vomit. The very threat to America and freedom is ALL emanating from the left. From considerable surveillance of citizenry , higher and higher taxation , deconstruction social norms and placing perversion ahead in our society , using a scamdemic to push everyone into a square hole , purposely destroying small businesses , purposely not enforcing ANY immigration laws , blatantly open borders , turning blue states into hell holes . The narrative of the left is all about control of the people , what they thin k , how much money we have , and what we say and how we say it. If you deny this you deny the reality of the situation America and it’s citizens are in.
      Under obammy ( remember the most transparent admin ever bunk ? ) and now senile darth biden ( the least transparent admin ever…and they revel in this ) the attack on institutions , freedoms and access to our personal information all across the spectrum. It’s an undeclared war on anyone that does not buy into and spoiut their group think and talking points.

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