Judge Orders Philadelphia to Remove Plywood Box Covering Columbus Statute

Common Pleas Court Judge Paula Patrick issued an order on Friday that Mayor Jim Kenney and the city of Philadelphia must remove the plywood box covering a statue of Christopher Columbus. The 144-year-old statue was covered up due to protests that the explorer represents racial injustice and abuse. Other Columbus statues have been destroyed, including one in Baltimore. When asked about that destruction, Speaker Nancy Pelosi shrugged and said “people will do what they do.”  For his part, Kenney has announced that his administration will appeal the ruling in an effort to keep Columbus covered from public view.

Kenney’s spokesperson declared that keeping the statue from being seen is “in the best interest and public safety of all Philadelphians.”

Patrick previously ruled that the statue could remain in the plaza and called the effort to remove it “baffling.” She also found that the city had failed to provide evidence that the statue’s removal was necessary to protect the public, calling the confrontations “isolated civil unrest.”

What is worrisome is whether protesters will now view the court’s opinion as an enticement to show that the protests were not “isolated” and renew efforts to destroy the artwork. Previously, an Antifa leader located at George Washington University declared “we are winning” after efforts to topple historical monuments in Washington.  He might be right. Indeed, academics have joined the calls for removing a wide array of statues to historical figures and some have even joined in efforts to destroy or deface them.

Many agree with the criticism of Columbus as a historical figure, criticisms raised particularly by the Native American community that he is a genocidal figure. Columbus and other statues have been removed in cities like Chicago.

I have long opposed the sweeping efforts to dismantle or destroy historical monuments and statues. (Here and here and here and here and here and here and here) While I recognize that there are some statues that should be removed, my primary objection is to the lack of a public debate over how we should address these calls. Instead, mobs have been destroying or defacing statues. In Washington, police made the “tactical decision” to stand by and watch a mob destroy a statue.

As I have previously written, there are statues that should be removed but it is important that such decisions are made collectively and with circumspection:

Two decades ago, I wrote a column calling for the Georgia legislature to take down its statue of Tom Watson, a white supremacist publisher and politician who fueled racist and antisemitic movements. Watson was best known for his hateful writings, including his opposition to save Leo Frank, a Jewish factory manager accused of raping and murdering a girl. Frank was taken from a jail and lynched by a mob enraged by such writings, including the declaration of Watson that “Frank belongs to the Jewish aristocracy, and it was determined by the rich Jews that no aristocrat of their race should die for the death of a working class Gentile.”

Yet today there is no room or time for such reasoned discourse, just destruction that often transcends any rationalization of history.

The court’s rulings puts it at odds with the city licensing board that upheld a July 2020 decision by the city historical commission to remove the statue. Such decisions are usually given great deference and the appellate court may consider this within the authority of the commission even if it disagrees with the basis for the action. However, the Delaware River Waterfront Corporation, a nonprofit that manages the park, and America 500 Anniversary Corporation, have an agreement with the city that they insist was violated by Kenney’s actions.

So the fight will now move to the appellate courts.

 

174 thoughts on “Judge Orders Philadelphia to Remove Plywood Box Covering Columbus Statute”

  1. It is clear those cancelling Columbus are bigots with a grudge against Italians. The Celebration has always been an Italian cultural touchstone. Driven a popularized by the Italian community

    The left, always marching toward selective diversity. Some diverse people don’t count

      1. If we do it right and make NFL and NBA teams ‘look like America’ [that’s the mantra], then no more than 7% of a team can be black. We need some racial justice here–more white and Asian and Hispanic players. Teams are shockingly non-diverse. They don’t look like America.

    1. You don’t know much about Columbus, do you? He didn’t go sailing west to “explore new worlds” or expand human knowledge of the natural world, but to look for gold and people who could be exploited. He didn’t “discover” a “New World” at all–there were Native American people who had been living and thriving here with their own tribes, languages, form of government, religion, and hunting and agricultural practices that made them self-sufficient. The “world” Columbus “discovered” was already here, populated with indigenous people who were living successfully as hunters and farmers, and just because Europeans didn’t know they were here and vice-versa, doesn’t necessarily make Columbus a hero. He viewed the Native Americans as inferior, and that IS racist. Italians have elevated him to the status of an idol, but indigenous Americans don’t share that sentiment. And, this is not due to the evil “Left” that your alt-right media sources blame for everything. Just like African Americans don’t find former slave owners and Civil War Confederate officers worthy of public statutes, neither do indigenous Americans when it comes to Columbus. and, THAT’s not anti-Italian bias, either. It is sensitivity to the fact that people’s beliefs and sentiments evolve over time. It’s not that indigenous Americans despise Columbus–it’s that they think his place in history is over-rated and that his profit motivation should receive more attention. Put his statute in a museum, like they’ve done with Confederate soldiers.

      1. Columbus didn’t travel to indulge diversity and practice redistributive change. He was an explorer looking for new lands and opportunities.

      2. “Put his statute in a museum, like they’ve done with Confederate soldiers.”

        ***

        Better yet, bring the nobel Confederate soldiers back out. Stop erasing history.

        The George Floyd statue has to go though; nothing nobel there–ugly too.

        1. George Floyd was a criminal, but his statue is justified if put in the right public place. The statue should be placed at San Quentin or Rikers Island while the statue is surrounded by iron bars. In front should be an explanation. This is the criminal George Floyd, and he rests here in jail where he belongs.

      3. Columbus is disliked by these “Native American Activists” for a simple reason – he’s was the “point man” of the European INVASION that CONQUERED the so-called “native” Americans who were too stupid, too prone to infighting, and too backward to mount effective resistance. I fail to see the reason to care about the sentiments of the CONQUERED.

        1. Selfdo says:

          “I fail to see the reason to care about the sentiments of the CONQUERED.”

          A poor translation from the German.

          How many times have you read Mein Kampf?

      4. Columbus “didn’t “discover” a “New World” at all–there were Native American people who had been living . . .”

        There’s the anti-conceptual mentality of “diversity” activists.

        “Discover,” in this context, does not mean: “Oh, look, there’s no people living there.” It means that he, and other explorers, found new land for *civilization*. And, yes, that implies that Indians were not civilized — because they were not.

        When your culture mindlessly repeats customs and practices for centuries, many of them barbaric and primitive — yours is not a civilized culture. It’s more akin to an animal’s existence.

    2. They’re Antisci and transhumane. Diversity (i.e. color judgment), not limited to racism, sexism, ageism, is Pro-Choice (i.e. selective, politically congruent, ethical) religious dogma.

      That said, diversity of individuals, minority of one. #HateLovesAbortion

  2. estovir:

    “The most agonising Comanche tortures included burying captives up to the chin and cutting off their eyelids so their eyes were seared by the burning sun before they starved to death. Contemporary accounts also describe them staking out male captives spread-eagled and naked over a red-ant bed.”

    “Drawing and quartering” by devout Christians included several steps. First the victim was drawn, that is, tied to a horse and dragged to the gallows. The punishment included hanging (usually not to the death), usually live disemboweling, burning of the entrails, beheading, and quartering. This last step was sometimes accomplished by tying each of the four limbs to a different horse and spurring them in different directions.

    Of course, these were civilized Christians unlike your godless savages.

    1. Yes, these civilized Westerners still draw and quarter virginal human lives for social progress, medical progress, and sequester their carbon for climate mitigation. Wicked.

  3. Liberal lightweights like JefffSilberman and Anonymous love to quickly go to the old Hitler analogy by saying “should Germany have a statue of Hitler”. Of course this straw man argument is as juvenile as good old JeffSilberman. Hey Jeffrey, ok, we agree on no statue for Hitler, now how about when you pals tear down statues of Lincoln and other Americans that were heroes up until 20 minutes ago? Now how would your little pals on the left act if someone tore down a statue of that truly great American George Floyd? How aboutthe couple that got AREESTED for painting over the BLM sign previously painted on the street?

    The left can not win an argument and that is why they are fascistic in nature.

    1. I can’t speak for Jeff, but personally, I don’t think any statues should be “torn down” by a mob, regardless of whether the statue is of Robert E. Lee or of George Floyd. I think people who deface public property should be prosecuted, again regardless of what that property is, including statues of both Robert E. Lee and George Floyd. I also think that some statues should be removed from the public square and moved to places like history museums. I also advocate that all of these issues be publicly debated.

      I am on the political left, and I am not a fascist. I find your name-calling and resort to caricatures juvenile.

      1. Someone said:

        “I can’t speak for Jeff, but personally, I don’t think any statues should be “torn down” by a mob, regardless of whether the statue is of Robert E. Lee or of George Floyd. I think people who deface public property should be prosecuted, again regardless of what that property is, including statues of both Robert E. Lee and George Floyd. I also think that some statues should be removed from the public square and moved to places like history museums. I also advocate that all of these issues be publicly debated.”

        You took the words right out of my mouth. You may speak for me anytime.

    2. Hullbobby loses the argument:

      “Hey Jeffrey, ok, we agree on no statue for Hitler”

      If you concede that Hitler statues should be removed, you have lost the argument as a matter of principle. Because now we can remove statues of Stalin, Mussolini, Lenin, Mao, Castro etc. The list never ends.

      1. How quickly images of Stalin were wiped out once Khrushchev denounced him at the 20th Soviet Congress in 1956. I spent nearly two years in Italy, never saw a statue of ol’ Benito. I’m sure what few statues of Lenin remain in the Russian Federation are corroding and are filthy with bird feces. As for “Dishonest Abe” Lincoln – if I had my way, his “memorial” in Washington DC would be dynamited, and a 250 ft. tall statue of Jefferson Davis would be erected in its place.

  4. As a culture, the Indians were prehistoric hunters and gatherers — a Stone Age people. That is the type of inhuman culture that some admire?!

    Actually, “admire” is a misstatement. Nihilists do not admire anything. They use the Indians to camouflage an ugly emotion: The desire to destroy any achievement, any greatness, any grandeur. (And that, today, includes America and Western civilization.)

    1. The indigenous peoples of the Americas were not “prehistoric” in 1492. They also weren’t Stone Age people in 1492, not only because the Stone Age had ended thousands of years earlier, but because the indigenous peoples of the pre-Columbian Americas engaged in metallurgy. Nor were they all hunter gatherers; agriculture had already existed in the Americas for over 1000 years.

      You should learn more history.

      1. “The indigenous peoples of the Americas were not “prehistoric” in 1492.”

        Before that date, they were. After that date, they were not.

        “[T]he Stone Age had ended thousands of years earlier . . .”

        Exactly. It took a few millennia for that news to reach your “noble” savages.

        1. You’re ignorance does not change the fact that history in the Americas was recorded long before 1492 and metallurgy existed in the Americas before 1492.

          Again: you should learn more history.

  5. Do these activists wish the Aztecs had continued to sacrifice men, women, and children, ripping their beating hearts out, grinding their bones into dust to make mortar, and building towers of human skulls?

    The Aztecs were conquerors, slavers, and bloodthirsty. Europeans were the stronger tribe that stopped them.

    If America had been magically shrouded from discovery by Europeans, it still would not have the wheel. Everyone would be on foot. No modern medicine, electricity, running water. People would still starve to death with regularity. A simple infection would be deadly. Tetanus would still be common. Tribes would still be fighting over land, and who knows how many more times the Black Hills would have changed hands. There would be no Appaloosa of the Nez Perce. No plains horse culture. Who knows what the Iroquois would have done. Tribes would still practice slavery, including the sex slavery of women. Tribes wiped out other tribes at times, taking any survivors as slaves and prohibiting them from ever speaking their language ever again. Some tribes regularly killed the children of enemy tribes. There was no chivalric tradition towards women, and in many of the culture, children had no protections. See Aztec, child sacrifice. There was no concept of land ownerships, deeds, or title. A strong tribe kept territory until and unless they lost it to a stronger tribe. Farming was only practiced by a few tribes, and ranching was unknown. Most were hunter/gatherers which made them especially vulnerable to droughts, natural disasters, or when the herds just moved on. People burned trees for warmth and cooking. There was no clean energy and never would be. No technology.

    There would have been no US to turn the tide of WWII. The Jews would probably all be dead, and Nazis would rule Europe. Japanese atrocities during the war were infamous. Japan would have ruled Asia, and it wouldn’t be the same culture as today.

    There would have been no prosperous US to donate billions of dollars to countries struggling with famine, drought, and war. Socialism and communism wouldn’t have had the US working against it.

    There would be no South Korea. North Korea would have engulfed the South, and never needed the Chinese to do it. South Koreans would be starving and abused today.

    The world would be a darker place today if the US had never existed. And eventually, that world would have found the Americas, still populated by Stone Age cultures. Except this time, perhaps it would have been a Nazi Europe that would have discovered it.

    Every single human being on Earth came from ancestry that committed, AND suffered, atrocities throughout human history. Social mores and values evolved, taking great leaps forward with Judeo/Christian principles.

    Don’t anachronistically judge the people of the past. Don’t selectively judge those of European descent while ignoring the fact that every other culture also existed in a past with totally different values and standards of today. What would be considered normal for an Apache in 1800 is a lot different than what is normal for an Apache today.

    I’m lucky to be alive today, and blessed to live in the US. While the tragedies and injustice that my ancestors suffered through the millennia are heartbreaking, were it not for them and these trials, I wouldn’t be here. Neither would anyone else.

    Learn from the past, but be grateful that it brought you here.

    1. It’s strange that you think you could predict with any accuracy how the history of the peoples of the Americas would have played out had Europeans not arrived. It’s as if you think time would have stopped.

        1. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I don’t pretend to know how the history of the peoples of the Americas would have played out had Europeans not arrived. I don’t know why anyone else would pretend to know.

          1. Someone says:

            “I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I don’t pretend to know how the history of the peoples of the Americas would have played out had Europeans not arrived. I don’t know why anyone else would pretend to know.”

            Karen does a lot of pretending as do all Trumpists. Hell, if you can pretend that Trump won the election on account of MASSIVE fraud, is there anything Trumpists cannot and will not lie about?

            1. Another deluded moron from THAT tribe. Your ancestors clamored for Barabbas over Christ, and demanded the Romans crucify your King. Hope to hell you’re happy with it…

              1. Selfdo says:

                “Another deluded moron from THAT tribe. Your ancestors clamored for Barabbas over Christ, and demanded the Romans crucify your King. Hope to hell you’re happy with it…”

                Hey Darren, tell Turley the news- another anti-Semite joins Res Ipsa Loquitur. Maybe Turley would like to inject some good speech to disinfect the bad speech of Selfdo. Is Turley even remotely aware of the hatred that proliferates here?

                1. Yeah, tell him another “mischelinge” isn’t afraid of your tribe of professional victims. Hey, blame those in Jerusalem that, in favor of Barabbas, shouted, “let His blood be upon us and our children.” You get to reap what they sowed, moron. Little wonder so many despise you, since you make it too easy.

                  1. Selfdog59 says:

                    “Hey, blame those in Jerusalem that, in favor of Barabbas, shouted, “let His blood be upon us and our children.”

                    I take it that you also believe in the “Blood libel.”

          2. Anonymous:

            Do you think that within a few hundred years, Native American Tribes would have compressed 12,000 years of Eurasian technological advances into a few hundred years, discovered raising animals, selectively bred bison into oxen faster than genetically possible, went through the cycles from hunter gatherer to agrarian to industrialized nation, discovered bronze, iron, mining, smelting, sailing, blue water sailing, met with the Polynesians to make navigational advances, deep sea fishing, sonar, diving, submarines, aircraft carriers, tanks, ultimately become a world superpower, and help Europe defeat the Nazis, thereby saving the Jews from total genocide?

            Could the plains tribes have discovered calculus, engineering, and physics within a few hundred years, if they were physically barred from all discoveries made in the outside world? Could they have learned and excelled in math, learning from the Inca, Mayan, and Aztec cultures? Perhaps the Anasazi drought survivors who dispersed from the Pueblos would have shared the math they knew, but that would be a phenomenal, unheard of leap from Stone Age to Modern Civilization in 500 years.

            That would be…unusual, given that every single other Stone Age tribe that lacked contact and sharing of ideas with the outside world is still, today, living exactly like they have for thousands of years.

            Even South American tribes whose members are free to leave and live in the modern world still have villages who live as the ancients did.

            1. Karen says:

              “Even South American tribes whose members are free to leave and live in the modern world still have villages who live as the ancients did.”

              Despite being free to live in the modern 21st Century, Hasidic Jews continue to dress and live according to the traditions and norms as their 18th and 19th Century forbearers did in the schtetls in the Pale of Settlement.

            2. Great list, Karen. To which I would add this:

              There’s a snowball’s chance in hell that they would have written the three greatest political documents in human history: The Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, The U.S. Constitution.

      1. Well, unless they could teleport horses, I know that Native Americans would never have gotten them without being discovered by the outside world.

        All we have to go on is how they compared with Europeans at that time. They were a Stone Age people, and the concept of the wheel was only for children’s toys, and only in certain tribes.

        There is no cultural appropriation; there is only the sharing of ideas, art, fashion, and culture. The concept of cooking food over a man made fire was once a new and innovative concept that was shared. Once Native Americans became cut off from the rest of the world, they lost that connection. Since they had access to enormous amounts of land, they did not suffer the intense pressure of limited resources and land that spurred so much European innovation. They adapted quite well to their current conditions, but that was no match for the European and Eurasian societies who had enjoyed millennia of trade and sharing of inventions.

        It’s not that I think time would have stopped; it’s that there is no reason to believe that Native Americans would have compressed millennia of lost time and either matched or superseded the outside world without any contact. At that point of time, they were inconceivably behind. This is because humans learn, rather than relying upon instinct, and we are very, very good at learning from each other.

        Do you honestly believe that Native Americans who had not invented the wheel, who had no access to beasts of burden which would have required a wheel, would have come up with gunpowder, steel, computers, or smart phones if they had remained isolated? Deer and bison do not make beasts of burden or good transportation. They would have had absolutely no chance of creating carts, wagons, beasts who can plow fields, or any of the technological innovations between that point and planes, trains, and automobiles. Most tribes didn’t farm, and there was no ranching. Without raising animals, there could have been no evolution of oxen from a bison ancestor. If they had accomplished none of this in over 11,000 years, why would they have done so in a few hundred? Hunter gatherer populations are severely limited in size due to the nature of their food sources. When they run out of game and edible vegetation, they could, and did, starve with regularity. More population growth, and mass starvation, would have had to happen before the concept of farming and raising animals for food would have had the impetus to really catch on. That would have eventually, after a few epochs, caught them up to Egypt around 8,000 BC. That is, unless the Aztec expanded into their territory and killed and enslaved them all.

        The other information we have to go on is how did native tribes fare who were discovered fairly recently by Europeans and Americans. There are tribes that were either recently discovered, or totally left alone, in Brazil, for example. They still don’t have the wheel. They still bury young children alive whom they believe are inferior or delayed, often because of simple malnourishment. They have not made any major technological advances of any kind, and are, in fact, still Stone Age. They are still living as they did for thousands of years, which is why they are the study of archeologists.

        It is environmental pressure which causes either physical, cultural, or technological evolution. Without those pressures, and without information sharing with the outside world, you cannot expect Stone Age civilizations to meet or exceed civilizations who do have those things.

        Wakanda is a myth.

        1. Karen S says:

          “It is environmental pressure which causes either physical, cultural, or technological evolution.”

          Provided we can convince delusional Trumpists that man-made global warming is NOT a Leftist conspiracy theory.

          1. JS does not surprise! He had to mention President Trump again. No thought and no writing without displaying his one and only hangup.

            1. 1970 says:

              “JS does not surprise! He had to mention President Trump again. No thought and no writing without displaying his one and only hangup.”

              False. I am hung up on Turley too. I’ll thank you not to forget that.

              1. Bob says:

                “Trump, Trump, Trump,Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump! Always and forever.”

                You ashamed of being a Trumpist now? You just want to move on and forget we ever heard about him? You agree that the election was NOT stolen??

              1. Young says:

                “JS can’t help being a Whoopie Cushion. It’s his nature.”

                I’m not going to insult you in like fashion. I’m going to keep shaming you until you stop your childishness.

                For your sake, it’s good that nobody will ever know who you are. But you know.

        2. You shouldn’t be so certain that there were no horses in the Americas prior to Columbus:
          https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/yes-world-there-were-horses-in-native-culture-before-the-settlers-came
          see also: Jones, Steven E. “Were there Horses in the Americas before Columbus?” Radiocarbon 34.3 (2012): 279-291.

          “They were a Stone Age people”

          They were not. The Stone Age had ended thousands of years earlier, and it’s easy to find examples of pre-Columbian metallurgy in the Americas, some of it quite beautiful.

          “the concept of the wheel was only for children’s toys, and only in certain tribes”

          Contrary to your reference to “Native Americans who had not invented the wheel,” not only were there wheels on toys, but also other pre-Columbian use of wheels in the Americas (e.g., potters’ wheels).

          “no access to beasts of burden”

          Llamas are native beasts of burden, and as above, you shouldn’t assume there were no horses.

          You should really investigate your assumptions more fully.

          1. Anonymous cautions Karen:

            “You should really investigate your assumptions more fully.”

            Well, then, it wouldn’t be Karen! She is a noted fabulist.

          2. Did the native Americans discover the wheel? I don’t think so. The wheel is one of the most important discoveries in human history.

            1. If you’re asking whether wheels existed in the Americas prior to the arrival of Columbus, the answer is “yes.”

          3. Yes i did notice instantly that you re framed the entire discussion.
            We are talking about removing statues of Columbus in the United States. That would directly connect to the aborigines, in the current contiguous 48 states
            The “qualifier” you had to invent, in order to insert mindless twaddle, is “the Americas” That gets you Mexico, Central, and South America.

            The indigenous aborigines of the United States were stone age in their development. In fact they refused to incorporate advances they were aware of, like the wheel.

            Horses
            The modern horse (Equus caballus) evolved on the North American continent. Disappearing from this area around 10,000 years ago (end of the Pleistocene epoch), it survived on the European/Asian continent. Horses were brought back to North America by the Spanish in the 1500s.
            https://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/nature/horse-history.htm

            1. Columbus didn’t arrive on the land that’s currently part of the United States, and Karen introduce the Aztecs, who didn’t live in the US, so there was zero reason for me to limit my response to her to the United States.

          4. Anonymous – you are right about potter’s wheels in some tribes; I am right that the wheel was not used in transportation.

            Donkeys were some of the animals earliest used by man for beasts of burden. Their presence allowed great leaps forward in innovation and cultural progression.

            Native tribes did not have access to donkeys, camels, or horses. They perhaps might have domesticated bison into some sort of oxen or cattle, but it would take thousands of years, and they had yet to begin such a venture.

            I have a herd of horses of my own, and can tell you that Yvette Running Horse Collin is a laughingstock. She combined a few nuggets of truth with fantasy because she really wanted Native Americans to have had horses prior to Europeans.

            The nugget of truth: Horses evolved in the North America from Pliohippus, migrated to Eurasia over the Bering Land Bridge. Those who migrated to Africa evolved into zebras. Those who migrated to Asia and the Middle East evolved into onagers and wild a^*&^es. (Sorry, but not taking any chances with Word Mess.)

            Fact: they died out in the Americas, their descendants were domesticated by Eurasian cultures around 6,000 years ago, and then they were reintroduced to the Americas. Surviving descendants of family Equidae in the Americas include the tapir, which could never, ever be confused with a modern horse. They are also related to rhinoceros.

            North America was one of the hardest hit with megafauna extinction events, at the end of the Pleistocene due to global cooling. They died out in North America, along with the wooly mammoth, American camel, dire wolves, smilodon, and giant sloths.

            The modern horse, Equus caballus, evolved in an area that encompassed Asia, the Middle East, and parts of Europe. We have their evolutionary family tree pretty well mapped out, as well as where it occurred.

            There were NO horses or horse cultures in North America prior to Europeans arriving there. They had been extinct for thousands of years.

            Ancient humans in the Americas did indeed encounter the ancestors of the modern horse. They ate them just like they did the wooly mammoth. In fact, early people in North America helped hunt the already environmentally stressed mega fauna to extinction.

            Poor Ms Collin does not seem to understand that fossil evidence of horse progenitors is just evidence of where they evolved, not where they persisted.

            It is well documented how astounded and afraid early Native Americans were upon seeing horses for the first time. It is also well recorded how much tribes evolved and changed upon the introduction of European horses. There was no plains tribal horse culture until after Europeans arrived. The Native Tribes learned horse husbandry (or culturally appropriated them, depending upon your school of thought), which completely shook up tribal territories, warfare, and the power structure.

            If horses had remained in North America, then they would have evolved into a completely different species, as the fossil record of the evolution of the modern horse is well documented in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. American horses would have evolved into something like a new kind of donkey or some other equine.

            The Appaloosa is a breed that the Nez Perce bred that descended from European horses. The curly coat gene is well documented in modern horses, and there are several curly coated breeds, not to be confused with the curling, shaggy coat of a horse suffering from Cushing’s Disease.

            Collin is confusing feral mustangs with native species.

            If horses had remained in North America, then the land would have been teeming with them. As early explorers pushed West, they would have found massive herds of native equines, which would have been completely different than Equus caballus. They would have been a different enough species that they would have either been unable to interbreed or they would have produced sterile hybrids, such as the mule.

            Yvette Running Horse Collin is known as a pseudo archeologist. What wasn’t mentioned in the article you linked is that the source for the sightings of horses she referenced in 1521 came from Pietro Martire (Peter Martyr) d’ Anghiera’s De Orbo Novo [The New World] (Martyr D’ Anghiera, 1912)?, written in 1530. He had captured a Native American he called Francisco Chicorana, who actually would not confirm that there were any horses. Martire also claimed there were lions, tigers, and elephants in the New World. What the Native described was someone riding on the shoulders of another man.

            She based much of her thesis off of oral lore, which would be impossible to trace prior to the 1500s. The rock art she claims shows horses was simply described by archeologists as “a quadruped animal.” She thought that ancient art was always to scale, and therefore was very confused by images of wolves, dogs, and coyotes which were not drawn to scale. Some of the art she claimed were horses were in fact universally acknowledged to be mountain lions by archeologists. Some of the art that she claimed was pre-contact were dated by subjectively comparing patina hues.

            She’s simply pointing to images of quadrupeds, and calling them horses. Much of the art was also post contact. She also rather arbitrarily claimed that a couple of well known horse breeds are actually horses who evolved separately in the Americas, in total defiance of genetic analysis.

            As someone who is well versed in horses, don’t forward that Collin baloney. It’s just fantasy.

            1. “I am right that the wheel was not used in transportation.”

              I don’t have the impression that we know that for certain for all tribes in the Americas, and given that some used wheels elsewhere (e.g., on toys), clearly they could have built wheels for transportation had they wanted. To be clear: I have been / am talking about all of the Americas, not just North America, in part because Columbus never came to the mainland of North America.

              “Native tribes did not have access to donkeys, camels, or horses.”

              As I already pointed out, it’s disputed when the equine species native to the Americas died out; you simply ignored the research by Jones that I cited (here’s a link: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303446285_Were_there_Horses_in_the_Americas_before_Columbus). You also ignored that you were making an argument about beasts of burden, and llamas/alpacas/… are native beasts of burden.

              1. Anonymous:

                Of course there were horses in the Americas before Columbus. That’s where they evolved.

                You have provided a paper from a Mormon trying to prove the Book of Mormon was true, that there were horses in what would have been the pre-Columbian era. It’s one of the infamous anachronisms in the BOM in which it was claimed the lost tribes of Israel settled in North America. Dr Jones also published conspiracy theories that the US government was behind the 9/11 attacks, which is why it was suggested to him that he retire early from BYU.

                I am well aware of Pratt Cave. The bones were found on the surface of the cave, not buried in the strata. The archeologist described them as “a small form about the size of an a$%^$”, and although he did not know if it was domestic or feral, he deemed it likely to have been dragged there by a predator post contact. The age of the bones in no way matched Jone’s assertions, nor did they match the cave strata.

                He also used data on bones that had cut marks from steel. From. Steel. Which was not smelted in North America pre-contact. Steel particles clinging to bone can also skew radiocarbon dating younger.

                This is a thoroughly debunked theory that is not taken seriously among archeologists.

                The most reliable studies have shown evidence that there was a fairly brief overlap between man and early horse species, such as Equus lambei. Early people in North America helped hunt the mammoth to extinction, already struggling due to climate change. Although we have a North American fossil record of members of the Equus family until about 12,000 years ago, that is not the exact date in which they went extinct. It is generally accepted that it was entirely possible that Equus and man briefly overlapped.

                However, horses went extinct in North America many thousands of years ago. There is absolutely no evidence that Native Americans had a long history with horses, let alone domesticated them, prior to Contact. Such claims by Collins and Jones have been completely debunked.

                You should also remember that the modern horse evolved in Central Asia, and were first domesticated in the Eurasian Steppe. They split off from North American horse progenitors about 2.5 million years ago.

                There ARE still relatives of the horse that remained in North America. They are called Tapirs. They could never, ever be confused with a modern domesticated horse.

                Genetic analysis of domestic horses show they came from two lines brought to Europe from the Middle East.

                https://www.science.org/content/article/most-modern-horses-came-just-two-ancient-lineages

                Sorry to disappoint you, but there was no Native American domesticated horse culture prior to contact. Hence why it was well documented that Native Tribes freaked the heck out when they saw Conquistadores riding horses. This is also why among all the other riches shipped back to Europe by Columbus, Native American horses were not among them.

                1. I have not been educated on this subject, so I can’t comment on who is right and wrong. I do note that Karen provides consistent evidence that is not in conflict with other evidence she presents. On the other hand, Anonymous provides whatever evidence he can find to bolster his point, whether that evidence is trashy or not. Anonymous has no filters to protect him from garbage and conflict. All of this makes Anonymous a non-credible source no matter what he links to. He creates the image of himself that others use against him in an argument. Essentially, Anonymous hates who he has become.

          5. Typical ATS responding to Karen’s remark that Indians did not have beasts of burden by referring to llamas. You quoted her: “no access to beasts of burden”.

            What Karen said was “no access to beasts of burden which would have required a wheel,”
            Llamas didn’t need wheels for their uses.

            You deceitfuly left out part of her statement so you could ‘refute’ a statement she didn’t make.

            This type of thing is why you have earned a reputation for dishonesty.

            1. “This type of thing is why you have earned a reputation for dishonesty.”

              It is so clear that the only one not recognizing it is ATS.

            2. “Llamas didn’t need wheels for their uses.”

              Neither did other beasts of burden. All beasts of burden can be used as beasts of burden without the use of wheels. I omitted “which would have required a wheel” because NO beasts of burden require the use of a wheel. If you believe I’m wrong about that, name some beasts of burden that you believe requires use of a wheel. Horses don’t, donkeys don’t, camels don’t, yaks don’t, …

              On the other hand, if you and Karen don’t actually mean “needs” or “requires” — if you only mean something like “can be used with wheeled contraptions like carts” — then the same is true for llamas: they can be used with carts, etc. It’s easy to find images and descriptions of them being used that way, just do an internet search on llamas carts wagons (and then choose “images” if you want photos rather than descriptions).

              Either way, Karen’s argument about beasts of burden collapse: either because no beasts of burden “required a wheel” or because llamas, alpacas, etc. can also be used with wheeled contraptions.

              As for your claim “You deceitfuly left out part of her statement so you could ‘refute’ a statement she didn’t make,” I wasn’t deceitful, because “required a wheel” wasn’t key (again: either because no beasts of burden “required a wheel” or because llamas, alpacas, etc. can also be used with wheeled structures), so their was nothing deceitful about omitting it.

              What’s amusing is that your pal Allan often does just what you just described. When confronted about it, he either ignores it or claims that it’s not deceitful. I’ve never seen you confront Allan about his deceitfulness. It’s especially ironic that Allan is now agreeing with you that it’s dishonest when he defends doing it himself.

        3. I’ve heard it said that there are more “Native” Americans TODAY, those with at least 1/4 “Indian” (I prefer to use their tribal national names when known, such as Navajo or Cherokee) ancestry, than existed when Signore Christoforo Columbo di Genova landed in Hispaniola in 1492.

          1. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans have varying degrees of American Indian ancestry. Mexicans knew it but Puerto Ricans were surprised when genetic analysis showed it.

            Funny but genetics has also shown that a lot of Turks in Turkey are in fact Greeks and Armenians; something very upsetting to Erdogan.

            Genetics is wonderful.

            And the Indians did not have horses before the New World was discovered; didn’t even know what they were. They learned though.

      2. Yeah, more of Karen’s blathering on and lecturing people about what they should believe and think. She behaves as if she’s an intellectual to compensate for her lack of education. All she does is repeat what she heard on her daily affirmation sources and look up articles on the internet that confirm her biases and then instructs people why they should agree with her. And, Columbus wasn’t the first to arrive in North America, either. People from Scandanavia were, but no one’s throwing up statutes to them.

        1. The famous Vinland Map has been proven to be a fraud.

          But would you be happier if we raised statues of Vikings?

  6. In the 1960s, nihilists in Yale’s art department would go down into the basement to destroy representational sculptures. They called them: “Smashing parties.”

    Noxious ideas that start in the universities, eventually ooze out into the culture.

  7. I think it is unconstitutional, and it is a hard blow to lawyersfreedom of expression, I hope it can be rectified or that someone complains at least because it seems to me an outrage.

  8. “Columbus and other statues have been removed in cities like Chicago.”

    When statues of Columbus (a symbol of Western values) are replaced with ones of George Floyd (a career criminal) — your culture is on life-support.

  9. Jonathan: When I was a young child in grade school our class celebrated Columbus Day. We performed plays depicting Columbus and how he “discovered” America and treated native peoples with benevolence. We now know that story was a lie–a sanitized story of Columbus’ arrival in the new world. Many local communities have changed the day to “Indigenous Peoples Day” to acknowledge that Christopher Columbus was, in fact, a racist colonizer who enslaved, mutilated and massacred indigenous peoples and forcibly converted the survivors to Catholicism. But the right-wing Washington Times calls the more accurate depictions of Columbus “character assassination” and “historical revisionism”. You have joined the chorus that wants to retain Columbus public statues–trying to blame Antifa for the destruction of public statues. For many years, before Antifa, native Americans and their white allies have called for the removal of statues of Columbus. While you concede “some statues…should be removed” (you don’t say which ones) you think such decisions should be “made collectively with circumspection”. That’s a convenient excuse for doing nothing. City councils and art commissions, like in Philadelphia, have “collectively” decided they want to remove objectionable public statues. So how can you object to what Philadelphia is doing?

    1. I bet you have no clue who Francisci dD Bobadilla is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don’t have a clue about much.

    2. Dennis says:

      “While you concede “some statues…should be removed” (you don’t say which ones)”

      Isn’t that just like Turley? To avoid taking a controversial stand.

      He calls for a Congressional censure of Trump for his “reckless” 1/6 speech (his word) resulting in the “desecration” of the Capitol (his word), BUT he will NOT condemn Trump continuing to lie at rally after rally that the election was stolen.

      Turley will not stick out his neck like Liz Cheney to condemn lying Trumpists because he is a moral coward.

      People one day will ask him- “Why didn’t you take a public stand against Trumpism like Cheney bravely did?”

    3. I thank God for Columbus and those who sailed with him and those who funded their explorations … and for all the others who did likewise throughout the world. What is past is history, like it or not. Move on and give up the hangups that focus only on those styled as “victims.”

      1. Thetennants1970 plagiarized:

        “What is past is history, like it or not. Move on and give up the hangups that focus only on those styled as “victims.”

        You stole this line from the sign leading into Yad Vashem!

  10. Interesting case indeed.

    Worth noting, that there was there also, an issue of denying public input (properly). I quote:

    “In addition, the City failed to allow the ninety (90) day requirement for public input pursuant to the Managing Director’s Directive 67. To the contrary, there was only twenty- eight (28) days for this input.”

    Also, issue of expert opinion concerning the condition of the Statue. I quote:

    ” The Board committed an error of law by affirming the PHC’s decision to remove the Statue without detailed expert report on the process and effect of removal on the Statute and Marconi Plaza under Philadelphia Code § 14-1005(6)(e)(3)”

    One may reach by the way the decision cited, here:

    https://media.nbcphiladelphia.com/2021/08/CHRIS-COLUMUS-STATUE-SUIT.pdf

    Thanks

  11. Statue, statue, what you say? How bout leaving New York today?
    Ain’t no reason for you to stay. Cause all your farts have blown away
    Get him back off his feet again!
    Back off his feet again.
    Open the whore.
    Set her free.
    Get the statue to Germany!

  12. If only the natives had built a wall, to keep Columbus out, the world would be totally different, perhaps better.

    1. They were too busy fighting and killing amongst themselves to worry about who was coming in from the ocean…

  13. “We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children.” Bartolome de las Casas, 1542

      1. A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies was written by Bartolome de las Casas in 1542. He was a Spanish Dominican friar. I bet you can find the text online if you want to read his reasoning.

  14. History does not exist for us to like or dislike. It is there for us to learn. Statues are representations of individuals who were important in a given historical period. Our culture has become one of victimhood and offense. Erasing the past and its representations is not going to change that.

    It is past time for people to get a grip and recognize that it is not possible to live a full and happy life if they are offended by statues, books or television. There is a choice: don’t look, read or watch.

    1. Should Germany have statues of Hitler? He was “important in a given historical period.”

      Removing a statue does not erase the person from history.

      1. You are a typical fascist authoritarian. You don’t have German citizenship but, nonetheless, seem to want to tell the Germans what they can or cannot do.

          1. No. You are not German, yet you chose to discuss a statue of Hitler (a German) being erected in Germany. As an American, and one that hated the Nazi’s, I would hate such a statue to be erected, but I am not German so I have no say.

            Let me repeat a quote I placed on a different theme.

            “Censorship, like charity, should begin at home, but, unlike charity, it should end there.”

            Clair B. Luce

            1. I asked the person who posted the 9:26 AM comment a question. Unless you are he, you cannot answer for him.

      2. FWIW, Hermann Goring boasted, upon his surrender to the Americans (he’d sought an audience with General of the Army Air Forces Carl Spaatz, later the only USAF FIve-Star), that fifty years hence, there’d be statues of him all over Germany, even if “little” statues. I don’t recall knowing of any trade in Goring statuary some 76 years later.

    2. Turley adamantly disagrees. He says that some statues SHOULD come down. It is not enough just to look away.

      1. Turely offers an opinion. Meaningless until he forms the coalitions needed to petition the appropriated govt bodies to act.
        That is what this debate is about. Allowing the people a say. Democrats can only govern by mob rule. That needs to end, or an opposing mob will rise up.

        1. Iowan2 says:

          “Democrats can only govern by mob rule.”

          You mean like that crazed and violent Democratic mob that stormed the Capitol on 1/6?

    3. Turley disagrees. Some statues should be taken down. It is not enough simply to look away. I suppose you would have been against removing statues of Hitler in Germany.

  15. Yes, unfortunately, many do agree with the ignorant “woke” view of Columbus. These “many” are the ones, including the charlatan Howard Zinn, who have never read the primary sources, which would definitively have disabused them of this notion. In fact, had they read the primary sources, they would have seen that it was not Columbus the Taino feared, but their neighbors the Caribs, who were cannibals, and who terrorized, kidnapped, enslaved, raped, castrated and killed the Tainos. But, of course, the truth that Native groups weren’t all innocent victims would go against the woke narrative. Liberals love a victim, and when they don’t have one, they invent one.

    1. Giocon1:

      “Liberals love a victim, and when they don’t have one, they invent one.”

      You mean like you Trumpists whining that you are the “Forgotten Man living in Flyover Country suffering at the hands of the coastal college-educated elites who are permitting an invasion of immigrants to steal your jobs?

  16. “Many agree with the criticism of Columbus as a historical figure, criticisms raised particularly by the Native American community that he is a genocidal figure. Columbus and other statues have been removed in cities like Chicago.”
    ****************************
    Yeah, the unlettered “many.” Columbus executed two sailors for abusing Indians. How’s that for a genocidal maniac ?

    Oh, You wanna remove a statue? Okay let’s have a vote. That never happens. Wonder why?

    1. “Okay let’s have a vote” And would you accept the results? Or would you just say it was rigged if you lost.

      1. I always thought that the brutality of the Comanche Injuns was beyond justification, the human sacrifices by the Aztecs surreal, the raping, enslaving and killing of young girls by the Iroquois unimaginable, and the Incas removing of beating hearts from other live Incas incredibly savage. Alas, in your case, perhaps I was being too hasty and judgmental of these savages peaceful protestors. Perhaps a vote by Incas would be more than fair as to determine how they would remove your heart. Alas, the Mayans would not really care to sacrifice you for their deity, and the Cherokee would likely pass on raping you. They usually tended towards young, female virgins.

        😉

          1. You have to do a lot to prove the Christian Culture practiced rape, slavery and murder. It did not. Some that called themself Christian were murdering brutes, But not the culture.

            1. Iowan2 does it again:

              “Some that called themself Christian were murdering brutes, But not the culture.”

              Like all those Christian SS men and Orthodox Ukrainian thugs who shot and beat to death Jews, Communists and the intelligentsia (the Never Hitlers)? They were not Christians? Just murdering brutes “calling themselves Christians” eh?

            2. Yeah, all those priests who raped kids for decades and were protected by their churches definitely aren’t part of the Christian culture.

              1. Anonymous says:

                “Yeah, all those priests who raped kids for decades and were protected by their churches definitely aren’t part of the Christian culture.”

                It’s ironic that Q-Anon Trumpists believe:

                “Democrats, aided by Hollywood and a group of “global elites”, are running a massive ring devoted to the abduction, trafficking, torture, sexual abuse and cannibalization of children, all with the purpose of fulfilling the rituals of their Satanic faith. Donald Trump, according to this fantasy, is the only person willing and able to mount an attack against them.”

                They are predominantly *Evangelical* Christians.

                1. When I enter into a fact based discussion, my first go to are conspiracies that are 100% the domain of Democrats. Qanon is a Democrat false flag operation.

                  1. Iowan2 says:

                    “When I enter into a fact based discussion, my first go to are conspiracies that are 100% the domain of Democrats. Qanon is a Democrat false flag operation.”

                    Of course, I know that. I was just testing you. And Trump is the Manchurian candidate put up by the Radical Leftists to divide the Republican Party. Shhhh. Keep it under your hat.

              2. Yeah, all those priests who raped kids for decades and were protected by their churches definitely aren’t part of the Christian culture.

                Disciples of Christ. The New Testament. Start quoting the scripture. Go ahead and prove me wrong. There are evil people in all endeavors of life. That in no way discredits Christianity.

                1. Iowan2 says:

                  “There are evil people in all endeavors of life. That in no way discredits Christianity.”

                  By the same token, Stalin’s evilness does not discredit socialism. Israel was founded on the socialist model- kibbutzim- but its leaders did not engage in murderous purges of the intelligentsia.

                2. I’ll believe you mean that when you also tell Estovir “There are evil people in all endeavors of life. That in no way discredits the indigenous people’s of the Americas.”

                  1. that in no way discredits the indigenous people’s of the Americas.”
                    I’m not going back to check, but my memory is estovir was specifically speaking of the Comanche tribe. There is little doubt specific tribes had a distinct culture of brutality, and random acts of terror and mayhem. That was established long before European settlers arrived.

                    I have taken note there are no attempts to prove the evil of Christianity.

                    1. If you’d gone back to check, you’d have seen that Estovir’s comment addressed the Comanche AND the Aztecs AND the Iroquois AND the Inca AND the Mayans AND the Cherokee.

                      I’ve taken note that you won’t respond to Estovir in an analogous way.

        1. estovir:

          “The most agonising Comanche tortures included burying captives up to the chin and cutting off their eyelids so their eyes were seared by the burning sun before they starved to death. Contemporary accounts also describe them staking out male captives spread-eagled and naked over a red-ant bed.”*

          Comanche were known to travel 1000 miles on horseback to exact revenge from an offending tribe. They took the women and kids into captivity and torture-killed all the males. Yep, they’re blameless and certainly worthy of kid-glove treatment.

          *https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html#:~:text=The%20most%20agonising%20Comanche%20tortures,over%20a%20red%2Dant%20bed.

          1. American torture includes waterboarding.

            Americans are known to carry out revenge on enemies thousands of miles away. Americans have twice used atomic bombs and have used drones that kill many innocent civilians.

            An American President, Trump, is known to have pardoned a former Seal who committed war crimes.

            1. One can only respond to this anonymous by calling him an idiot. You need to learn your history. Get rid of Zinn’s book and look at the history of powerful nations in history. The US seems pretty good.

              Germany and Japan were defeated and occupied by US troops. Look at them now. Did America annex these countries? No. How about the Philippines? No. Need I go on?

              Two atomic bombs! Do you not know the history of the bombing campaign against Japan? Many Japanese give thanks for the atomic bombs that caused the end of the war. The bombing campaign had raids that were killing more Japanese than the atomic bombs killed.

              I cannot believe your admitted ignorance, admitted by your own comments.

              1. General Tibbets who piloted the Enola Gay to drop an atomic bomb on Hiroshima remarked that when he visited Japan after the war at least one Japanese came to him, shook his hand, and thanked him for saving his life. Far more Japanese civilians and soldiers would have died if we had finished the war with invasion and they knew it.

                Strange how America detractors always remember the atomic bombs that ended the war and never seem to remember Pearl Harbor, The Rape of Nanking, atrocities in Malaysia and the Philippines, the death factories in China where horrific experiments were performed on Chinese civilians, including children, and where Japan was working on biological weapons to drop on the United States.

                No they don’t remember and they would hide it with ‘but what abouts’ if it came up.

                1. Young says:

                  “Far more Japanese civilians and soldiers would have died if we had finished the war with invasion and they knew it.”

                  The firebombings of Tokyo and other cities were killing as many people as the atomic bombs did. The bomb was simply more efficient. The question is whether anymore bombing of civilians was justified at that point in the war since the Japanese were seeking terms of surrender via Russia. The atomic bomb probably was meant more to put Russia on notice as well as keep them out of the war in Japan which they declared the day after Hiroshima. Over 100K Japanese may have been killed more on account of the Cold War than ending the Pacific War.

                  1. Do any of you Trumpsters wonder why after the war, Robert Oppenheimer turned against nuclear weapons, and so they had to jerk his security clearance? Did you know that when the Hiroshima bomb detonated, Tibbetts said: “my God, what have we done?” (paraphrasing). You are correct that the necessity of nuking Japan appears now to be of questionable necessity for defeating Japan, but that’s not what people said at the time or even for decades later on. It’s not clear what Truman knew or was told when he approved nuking Japan. He wasn’t in the loop on the development of the nuclear bombs in the first place.

                  2. “Japanese were seeking terms of surrender via Russia. “

                    The point is they weren’t seeking terms of surrender with the US and hostilities were ongoing. Ask the Chinese how they felt about the Japanese atrocities. Check with the other nations involved and then think of Pearl Harbor. Russia has little to do with a complete surrender by Japan. Your lips are moving but you aren’t saying anything.

                  3. Whoopie Cushion,

                    Read “The Fall of Japan” by Craig. Many elements in the Jspenese military did not want to surrender even after 2 atomic bombs. They attempted a coup to prevent the surrender.

                  4. Indeed, Operation “Meetinghouse”, the great bombing of Tokyo on March 9-10, 1945, killed more Japanese in Tokyo in a 24-hour period than did the atomic bombings COMBINED.

              2. As awful as the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, had the war endured but a few more months, even without the projected invasion of Japan at Kyushu (“Operation Olympic”), which would have been by a factor of 3x over D-Day the greatest seaborne invasion in history, more Japanese civilians would have perished due to conventional bombings and the starvation that the blockade of Japan (it’s merchant marine was GONE) was causing. Never mind also that battles were still raging in New Guinea, Burma, China, and the Philippines. Nearly 2 million Japanese soldiers still held large amounts of territory in Southeast Asia and various Pacific Islands that the “island-hopping” campaign had by-passed. Not to even mention that the Soviets had rolled into Manchuria and overran the Japanese Kwantung Army in one of history’s most lopsided military campaigns. Japan may have lost the war by any “reasonable” Western standards, but their own fanatical Bushido code and sense of misguided loyalty to their demi-God Emperor, himself a puppet of the militarists, akin to Emperors during the Tokugawa Shogunate, impelled them to resist to the last bullet fired and swipe of their samurai swords. It took those horrific atomic bombings to shake them to their senses that they had to give up. It’s a pleasant irony that it took the “GAIJIN Shogun”, MacArthur, to reform Japan into a modern democracy that’s managed to keep the best of their culture while renouncing fanatical militarism.

          2. Mespo, recall what the Declaration of Independence says of the Injuns:

            The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

            …..He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

            https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript

            Heck, had it not been for the Jesuits converting them, these Indian savages would have stormed Capitol Hill and scalped AOC as the insurrectionists they were. If only……

            🤠

          3. Mespo, you mean that it wasn’t just white Christian Americans who did these awful things. I never knew.

      2. Fishwings says:

        “Okay let’s have a vote” And would you accept the results? Or would you just say it was rigged if you lost.”

        The ONLY way Trumpists EVER lose is because the Democrats rigged it.

  17. There used to be a replica of the Santa Maria on the river in the town formerly known as Columbus. Went aboard that a few times. Columbus and crew may have had their faults like everyone, and maybe even more for all I know. However, you have to admire the raw courage of people who would get in one of those things and sail westward, not knowing what they would find. Not just him and his crew, of course, the Norse and others as well.

  18. Turley acknowledges:

    “As I have previously written, there are statues that should be removed but it is important that such decisions are made collectively and with circumspection”

    Unlike fanatical Trumpists, Turley is NOT opposed to removing controversial statues. Rather, he says:

    “While I recognize that there are some statues that should be removed, my primary objection is to the lack of a public debate over how we should address these calls.”

    Turley is opposed to “snap” removals without a fulsome public debate. He is quite right to condemn vigilante justice in tearing down statues.

    However, there is NOT one statue in America that Trumpists would EVER agree to tear down regardless of how odious or traitorous the person.

    That is the undeniable difference between Turley and a Trumpist.

    1. Jeff Silberman. Who the hell are you?? Your logic is truly amazing. Please spare us simple people from your garbage.

      1. Mike says:

        “Jeff Silberman. Who the hell are you?? Your logic is truly amazing. Please spare us simple people from your garbage.”

        No can do, buddy. You ain’t seen nothing yet. I’m just gettin’ warmed up. I’ve got plenty more garbage where that came from. I don’t regard you Trumpists as simple people. I regard you as damnable liars. There is a difference.

        1. No can do, buddy. You ain’t seen nothing yet. I’m just gettin’ warmed up. I’ve got plenty more garbage where that came from

          At least a bit of self reflection and passing nod to the truth. Ive scanned through most of the thread here. Your’s are with out a doubt, garbage

          Off topic, delusional, and meaningless.

          1. Iowan2 says:

            “Ive scanned through most of the thread here. Your’s are with out a doubt, garbage. Off topic, delusional, and meaningless.”

            Not too meaningless apparently for you to ignore my garbage. Rather, you felt compelled to comment. I look forward to your scanning my garbage and giving me your opinion of it. I’m always trying to improve and welcome your valuable feedback. Thanking you in advance.

      2. Let him speak. He does more damage to his Tribe in so doing. The best way to counter error is with TRUTH, and the best “disinfectant” is the LIGHT of TRUTH.

        1. Selfdo says:

          “Let him speak. He does more damage to his Tribe in so doing. The best way to counter error is with TRUTH, and the best “disinfectant” is the LIGHT of TRUTH.”

          Are you new around here? I think we just may get along after all!

          1. FWIW, I object to your views, NOT necessarily your ANCESTRY. As long as you don’t live DOWN to the worst of it. I’ve some myself, via my grandmother, and her sibs, the “four queens and a king” (yes, they were!), and I’ve not considered it fatal. Hence why I needle you, but I’d object stridently to name-calling, threats, and, of course, actual violence directed your way. If nothing else, this is supposed to be a country where the RULE OF LAW prevails. If it doesn’t against people I don’t “like”, then it’s karma that someday said lawlessness heads my way, sans recourse.

            1. Selfdo confesses his shame in having some Jews in his ancestry :

              “I’ve some myself, via my grandmother, and her sibs, the “four queens and a king” (yes, they were!), and I’ve not considered it fatal.”

              Not to worry, Perchick, a little “Jew blood” is not fatal.

      1. Well Jeff, there’s your answer to what Turley has done. he’s feeding constant outrageous behavior for the cult in not writing the facts on what Trump has and is doing to the country. His permanently aggrieved Trump cult has no use for facts and ideas that do not fit their escalating embrace of authoritarian or sometimes out-right fascism politics. He has his base, and he is well aware in what he is doing.

        1. Fishwings,

          Trumpists are very proficient in the name-calling department because they lack the education to articulate an argument against my criticisms.

          Trumpists are liars. Liars will fight and even kill so they won’t have to admit that they are. That is my greatest fear.

    2. JS

      Your comment suggests that Lefties tried debate before resorting to vandalism.

      BS.

      Mob violence was the first action.

      Followed by Democratic whitewashing and ignoring of Lefty crimes.

      Suggest that mob violence is bad, whether from the left or the right.

      It is just that the left has a near monopoly (aside from 1/6) on mob violence.

      1. Yep! Lefties follow women into bathrooms and disrupt people eating in restaurants and etc.– all “part of the process” according to the demented politician of 50+ years. It’s clear biden and his “minders” of the far far left also view as “part of the process” all the mobs and their violence, arson, thievery, destruction, injuries to others. But should parents dare to be involved in the education of their children in public schools .. they are domestic terrorists to be investigated by the FBI and the US so-called “justice” Department. y

        1. 1970 says:

          “But should parents dare to be involved in the education of their children in public schools .. they are domestic terrorists to be investigated by the FBI and the US so-called “justice” Department.”

          Next you’ll tell me that the Trumpists were just picnicking at the Capitol on 1/6 and parading patriotically.

          1. Security denied, an assembly derided, an unarmed woman murdered, embedded instigators, and a disorder (“riot”) forced.

      2. Monumentcolorado admits:

        “It is just that the left has a near monopoly (aside from 1/6) on mob violence.”

        You acknowledge that 1/6 was not a Trumpist picnic and patriotic parade? It was violence? Wow! I’m shocked. There may be some hope for you yet. Little steps at first. Good! I’m proud of you.

        Now for a BIG step- “the election was not stolen.” Come on, you can do it!!

        We’ll get to “Trump is a chronic and habitual liar” much later. For now, repeat after me, “the…. election…. was …. not….. stolen.” Again.

    3. “there is NOT one statue in America that Trumpists would EVER agree to tear down regardless of how odious or traitorous the person.”
      your TDS is manifesting itself. what statues are you referring to

      1. The left’s hero George Floyd that has statues everywhere now. Tear them down. Tear down Obama statues while you are at it…

        1. A drug-induced progressive condition, a mob assembled delays authorized medical aid, nationwide insurrections, and Some, Select [black] lives matter invading neighborhoods to intimidate families and residents.

      2. PeterK says:

        “your TDS is manifesting itself. what statues are you referring to”

        What is TDS? Is anything like BDS? You tell me if there are ANY kinds of statues you would remove unlike Turley who has acknowledged that some statues SHOULD BE taken down.

    4. And you know this because you’ve taken a poll and will share the results with us? Seems like your only purpose on this blog is to launch ad hominem attacks on Turley and the millions of people who voted for Trump. Very childish. Go play in another sandbox.

      1. Giocon1 says:

        “Seems like your only purpose on this blog is to launch ad hominem attacks on Turley and the millions of people who voted for Trump. Very childish. Go play in another sandbox.”

        To the uneducated eye, it may seem so. I will continue to call out you Trumpists for your lying about the election being stolen until you finally admit that there was no massive fraud and that Trump lost fair and square.

        When I read that, my work here will have been done, and I will depart happily.

        Would you like to start confessing Giocon1?

    5. While Jeff hides behind Turley’s skirt, he thinks he is wearing long pants because Turley isn’t opposed to removing controversial statues. Therefore Jeff isn’t opposed either but then makes the Stupid statement that “Trumpists” are opposed.

      “Trumpists” believe in the rule of law, democracy and our republic. If a statue of Jeff nude were placed in the town square, most people, including “Trumpists,” would want that statue removed. It has no redeeming qualities.

      No matter what his politics are, Turley has proven himself to be an intelligent lawyer. Jeff has only exposed his utter ignorance.

    6. Jeff Silberman is one more of those who, 8 months after President Trump’s term of office expired, continue to view everything and anything in terms of President Trump! Not a comment to be made, not a thought to be held — without faulting President Trump and/or those who could not bring themselves to vote for biden/harris in November 2020. Get some mental health help!! and move on!!

      1. As long as the GOP remains the party of Trump (where party members are considered RINOs if they oppose him) and as long as Trump continues to push The Big Lie that the election was stolen, he remains a danger to our country. We should not ignore dangers to the country. We should combat them.

        1. Someone says:

          “As long as the GOP remains the party of Trump (where party members are considered RINOs if they oppose him) and as long as Trump continues to push The Big Lie that the election was stolen, he remains a danger to our country. We should not ignore dangers to the country. We should combat them.”

          Can do. Should do. Will do.

      2. Thetennants says:

        “Jeff Silberman is one more of those who, 8 months after President Trump’s term of office expired, continue to view everything and anything in terms of President Trump! Not a comment to be made, not a thought to be held — without faulting President Trump and/or those who could not bring themselves to vote for biden/harris in November 2020. Get some mental health help!! and move on!!”

        Nope. Not gonna happen. Think of me as a STATUE in the playground we call Res Ipsa Loquitur. According to you Trumpists, I am untouchable because to take me down would be defacing history. So, here, I stand reminding you every day what kind of liars you have been and continue to be defending the Big Lie. I am unmovable.

  19. What is there to say except express (once again) our contempt for Lefty censors are the political opportunists who enable them?

    Next cycle (and there always is another cycle), the Lefties will be squealing in outrage as they demand civility.

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Res ipsa loquitur – The thing itself speaks
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