Criminal law, Free Speech, International

Canadian Parliament Votes To Extend Trudeau’s Emergency Powers . . . After the Protest Has Ended

By a vote of 185 to 151, the Canadian Parliament voted to approve Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s motion to invoke the Emergencies Act. The vote is chilling given the fact that the protest has ended and the roads have been cleared. Nevertheless, the Trudeau government still wants to wield the excessive and unnecessary powers claimed under the Act. The vote shows how easily many drift into more and more draconian measures against their political opponents.

As we discussed earlier, Trudeau has never explained why he required such emergency powers to clear the roads and end the protest. Cities and provinces already have ample powers to clear roads and end unlawful protests. That raised concerns that Trudeau was using the protest as a pretext as he attacked those opposing his powers as supporting Nazis.

Since almost half of the House of Commons opposed his powers, it is absurd to demonize critics as those who “stand with people who wave swastikas, they can stand with people who wave the Confederate flag.” Canadian civil liberties groups have opposed Trudeau’s use of these powers. Yet, Trudeau has relied on a largely supportive media in using such powers despite the chilling implications for free speech and associational rights.

Trudeau wants to continue to be able to freeze the accounts of political opponents and give black lists to banks for those who will be tagged under his new powers. There are no meaningful limits on such powers. These same sweeping emergency powers could be used against some of our most celebrated figures and shutdown some of our most revered causes. Under this law, the only thing preventing Trudeau from shutting down movements — even historic movements like the Civil Rights marchers or protests of indigenous peoples — is his affinity for the cause as opposed to the underlying conduct.

Trudeau has pushed to retain these powers while denouncing Cuba for seeking to intimidate those who wish to protest in that country.

The Liberal Party, the NDP and other allies were able to muster 181 votes for this motion. It is an ignoble and troubling moment for civil liberties in Canada. They have embodied the warning of the great civil libertarian Justice Louis Brandeis, who once said that “the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.”

219 thoughts on “Canadian Parliament Votes To Extend Trudeau’s Emergency Powers . . . After the Protest Has Ended”

  2. Canadians will need to deal with this in their elections. They gave these powers thinking it would be used for terrorist or some similar threat. Now it is used on it’s own citizens for protesting.
    Our nations founds knew to limit government power. A day after President’s day I hope American’s will remember this quote.

    “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” — George Washington

      1. Predicting the future is dicey, but I can imagine a point at which Trudeau declares that elections and the cancelling of them fall into his emergency powers. Already, as we have seen, the reality on the ground doesn’t have to have anything at all to do with a power grab. I mean, who would have thought he’d use an utterly peaceful protest to place his country under martial law?

        1. I mean, who would have thought he’d use an utterly peaceful protest to place his country under martial law?

          Mary Ann,

          Pastor Artur Pawlowski did.

  3. “Trudeau wants to continue to be able to freeze the accounts of political opponents and give black lists to banks for those who will be tagged under his new powers.”

    Trudeau is using the government’s police powers to crush the political opposition.

    Somewhere in hell, Castro is smiling.

  4. Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord Was a top diplomat and political sycophant who clung to power before, during and after the French Revolution by graft and ruthless cunning.

    His corruption knew no boundaries and his thirst for power and self enrichment was boundless. He was the antithesis of ethics. Napoleon, in disgust, famously dressed him down in front of his Marshals and called him “merde dans un bas de soie (piece of s*** in a silk stocking)”

    It appears that little PM carries on in the same spirit as Talleyrand. It is reported that he and his family have enriched themselves for years by following the bidding of the CCP.

    “They [capitalists] will furnish credits which will serve us for the support of the Communist Party in their countries and, by supplying us materials and technical equipment which we lack, will restore our military industry necessary for our future attacks against our suppliers. To put it in other words, they will work on the preparation of their own suicide.” Vladimir Lenin

  7. Actually, insidious encroachment doesn’t so much occur when a government seeks to stand up for public health measures during a pandemic as it does when a country looks to invade a neighboring smaller country because it thinks it can. However you’re bound to not talk about that because you work for a media conglomerate that’s a clear and present danger to the U.S. so I guess there’s that, Jon.

    Elvis

    1. If you still believe this is about government ‘standing up for public health measures during a pandemic’ …then you are obviously not paying attention.

    3. So Elvis bug. If Professor Turley doesn’t write about the high price of puppies in every post he makes he doesn’t somehow care about puppies. You have amazingly forgotten about the sanctions that Trump put on Russia. The very same sanctions that Biden removed and has now decided to put back on. Trump increased the sale of natural gas to Germany so that Germany would not be dependent on natural gas from Russia. Now Germany has frozen the pipeline project that would allow natural gas to be transported from Russia. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germanys-scholz-halts-nord-stream-2-certification-2022-02-22/. Now California is building new fossil fuel burning, pollution creating power plants to halt the brownouts. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-19/california-to-build-temporary-gas-plants-to-avoid-blackouts. These are two things that you didn’t mention in your post. I don’t expect you to mention everything under the sun when you post. You should offer such forbearance to the good Professor but of course you don’t.

  8. This is bad but the telling point will be in 30 days if he ask for an extension. Then we know that Canada is in really deep trouble.

    1. There is little doubt these ’emergency’ powers will be made permanent. We don’t need 30 days. Canada is in deep trouble. Now.

  9. Trudeau has declared financial warfare against Canadian citizens who hold “unacceptable views” –as he determines it — with no end in sight. Why doesn’t he just declare himself the permanent leader of Canada like Xi did in China?

    What an absolute disgrace Prime Minister Blackface is. He is exactly the kind of person who should never be anywhere near this kind of power. He is a ruthless, spineless, weak, whining, authoritarian dirtbag politician. Not to be confused with the word “leader.” He is not a “leader.” He is a follower of his puppet master, the evil Klaus Schwab.

    Klaus Schwab is proud of his faggy little soyboy Trudeau and the descendant of actual Nazi’s, Chrystia Freeland.

    Pray for the people Canada.

  10. I have a theory about what is motivating Putin. His own mortality. He is growing older. He knows that he will die someday. He wants to go out with a bang. He controls the means to do so. If nature requires that he die someday, then he wants to take millions of other people with him.

    1. A corrupt corpse named Joe Biden is in the White House. Tony Blinken is Secy of State – whose weakness just oozes out every pore. “Woke” weak military leaders like Milley and Austin. The utter disgrace that was Biden’s Afghanistan.

      That’s what’s “motivating Putin.”

    2. Putin does have a ‘school shooter’ mentality about him doesn’t he?

      Seems his efforts to groom L’Orange to just abdicate on Ukraine didn’t pan out with trumps exit. Putin is forced to try to force his hand now. Not working out like he thought it would. He’ll be able to get a deal from Biden though now that adults are at the table.

      Elvis

      2. Get a grip. Think for a minute. Who has made millions in shady business deals in Ukraine for years and years? Not only Hunter Biden, who made sure 10% went to Daddy Big Guy. Lots of dirty dealing enriching political elites and their familiues being done in Ukraine. But now Biden and gang want people like you to believe our involvement there is all about “democracy” or something. What a hoot you are.

          1. Anonymous Elvis: This wasn’t about Ukraine or Russia – it was about Europe and capturing that market for US LNG. What Biden did was put the final nail in the coffin of Europe’s ability to get affordable energy from Russia. Now that Nordstream2 is cancelled, Europe will be a captive market for US LNG, and we’ll squeeze every dime out of them. This was a setup from the get-go, but it was the Europeans who were set up. Now the US will control the European market for LNG with no competition from cheaper Russian gas. The US will charge whatever it wants and deliver a controlled quantity to keep prices high. And what do the European people get? Higher gas prices than they’d have to pay if they got their gas from Russia, and a new Cold War with their Russian neighbors. And when their economy tanks and their people are cold and rebellious, the “left” German government will no doubt follow the lead of liberals in the US and Canada: declare the protestors to be “insurrectionists,” freeze their bank accounts, and club them into submission. The Biden regime finally succeeded at something: killing democracy in the West.

            1. Not that I’m unaware of the slimy tricks the fossil fuel lobby will pull to get artificial market control, but nope, this one’s about Putin and Russia trying to regain their old boundaries by force. Thanks for checking in with the daily recap from Tuck ’ems though!!

              Elvis

  12. True Dough. Like pizza dough.
    Canada is a nation in turmoil. They need a non leading leader. They do have a candidate whose name is Trucker Fuker. He wears a condom on his shirt.

  13. You can’t create a new nation every time there is a demographics shift. Lincoln would not have stood for this. He would have fought a bloody war to stop this nonsense.

  14. “But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.” – John Adams

      1. Historian Michael Kammen wrote a book about this very thing: it actually IS just a piece of paper and not “a machine that will go of itself.”

  15. It is well known that the first person in a debate to compare their opponent to Hitler and his National Socialist Party loses the debate.
    If anyone acted like Nazis it was not the demonstrating truckers but the Canadian police.

    What were they protesting? It seems to have been lost in the ill will. They were objecting to the requirement of a government-mandated medical treatment to cross into Canada. In particular the mRNA pretreatment (mistakenly referred to as a vaccine).

    Well, here’s the thing. The mRNA pretreatment was directed at the original SARS-CoV-2 virus targeting the spike protein. (Vaccines, on the other hand, recognize and kill the entire virion and make one at least partially immune to all similar virions.) IT WORKED. That variant of the virus is doornail dead. The pretreatment mRNA has become ineffective against later evolution of the virus. Since the mRNA treatment has some side-effects it is immoral to cause those side-effects absent the original fallen foe.

    There has evolved a new variant called omicron. This variant can, just like the original, be dangerous to those already ill with other maladies. Less virulent almost all have an immune system capable of fighting it off without even a hospital stay. In fact those who never took the mRNA treatment fight it better than those who have. With just a few less side effects omicron could be sold as a vaccine. It is a (naturally-) weakened form of a prior variant. That is what is normally used as a vaccine — an artificially weakened (or even dead) version of the virus. Virology 101 — viruses evolve to less virulence leading to their survival as we kill off those with severe symptoms.

    1. ETA: better last sentence:
      Virology 101 — viruses evolve to less virulence leading to their survival as we kill off those which cause severe symptoms.

    2. Old George…..that Rule of Internet Debate might. hold….but then sometimes the Post might be factually and historically correct….thus creating an exception to that Rule.

      Here is an excerpt from a Web Site discussing now the Nazi’s came to power in Germany prior to World War II:

      “On the 28 February 1933, President Hindenburg signed the Emergency Decree for the Protection of the German People.

      This decree suspended the democratic aspects of the Weimar Republic and declared a state of emergency.

      This decree gave the Nazis a legal basis for the persecution and oppression of any opponents, who were be framed as traitors to the republic. People could be imprisoned for any or no reason.

      The decree also removed basic personal freedoms, such as the freedom of speech, the right to own property, and the right to trial before imprisonment.

      Through these aspects the Nazis suppressed any opposition to their power, and were able to start the road from democracy to a dictatorship.”.

      Although not a direct copy of what the Canadian Government under Trudeau has done with the support of Parliament…..there is some commonality isn’t there?

      The Canadian Government is seizing Trucks, Personal Bank Accounts, Imposing draconian Fines, blocking off whole sections of Ottawa and promising arrests of people who merely walk through those areas, and have promised to investigate and prosecute anyone that was involved in or supported the Trucker Convoy.

      How does one fail to see the sheer evil of that?

    3. Virology 101 — viruses evolve to less virulence leading to their survival as we kill off those with severe symptoms.

      Actually, no. RNA viruses are extremely unstable. They can evolve to be less virulent or more virulent. We really have no way of predicting what RNA viruses will do from one generation to another, e.g. beta coronaviruses include SARS-CoV, followed by MERS-CoV, the latter being far more deadly, followed by SARS-CoV-2. What follows thereafter is anybody’s guess.

      A highly virulent variant of HIV-1 circulating in the Netherlands
      Genetic sequence analysis suggests that this variant arose in the 1990s from de novo mutation, not recombination, with increased transmissibility and an unfamiliar molecular mechanism of virulence.
      https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk1688

      Discovery of New HIV Variant Sends Warning for COVID Pandemic
      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/discovery-of-new-hiv-variant-sends-warning-for-covid-pandemic/

      1. One of the best ways to stop a large part of these New Variants of Virus to 1st shut down all the Biosafety Level 3 and 4 laboratories, put crime tape around them , seize any evidence left and Arrest all involve, like the evil b*stards Fauci and Bill Gates.

        At least one of the current laws they can be charge under is the Biological Weapons Act
        *******
        S.993 – Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989101st Congress (1989-1990)

        https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/993/text

        *********

        All the Biosafety Level 3 and 4 laboratories serve no legitimate useful purpose other then illegally cooking up Bio-Chem Weapons.

        Further it should piss people off to no end that NIH,NIAID, CDC, HHS, UN, China, etc., have been going around stealing everyone’s DNA.

        Creepy Azzholes

        1. Given the way Americans have destroyed the institution of marriage since the 1960s forward, embraced disposable relationships, cohabitating, and glorifying hookup culture since the advent of smartphone apps, it would not be too hyperbolic to state human DNA has been scattered far and wide these last several decades. Where that DNA has landed is as good as your guess as the next person. I can understand liberals excusing Bill Clinton, but Republicans electing, never mind still supporting Donald Trump, should be reasons for authentic disgust.

          1. 2/22/2022,

            An easy way for me to look at this world is that God made us humans in his image & thus Satan hates our our guts as he knows over time humans can be capable of rising to much higher dimensions then Satan.

            Satan in his desperation & rage is attempting to destroy us humans while we’re in our infancy before we get stronger, & as in the past Satan is attacking our seed, DNA.

            One of the things that tick me off is that completely transparent research & restraint little doubt DNA/mRNA studies be helpful to mankind.

            But that’s not the way evil works, it takes people’s well meaning research & converts it for evil.

            I know the US govt has advance research that’s at least 35/50 years ahead of what they release to us in public.

            I remember Fm VP Dick Chaney saying in public GW & him were looking at releasing race specific Bio-Weapon.

            At the time I read a couple of opinion pieces that speculated they decided against it was because they knew they couldn’t keep it localized. IE: Arabs I’ve heard are around 20% black & a fair amount of whites have some black genes.

      2. Estovir, you are precisely correct. Sometimes more virulent strains arise, especially in HIV. Although the epidemiologists I worked with at The Upjohn Company predicted when HIV was new that HIV would be a non-issue by 2020, that was to the nearest decade. I daresay that is virology 201. Shall we discuss polio, flu, and MERS differences?
        Yes, I skipped a lot and overgeneralized. Putting in some qualifiers: In the usual course of a coronavirus infection which can be handled by the native immune system there is a strong tendency to evolve toward milder forms. Sometimes there is a more-symptomatic one mutated, though. Some kinds of viruses (not the ones of concern here) evolve slowly, if at all.

        I was a prof, and yes we oversimplify in the introductory course.

        I say again: The mRNA pretreatment WORKED. That strain is extinct. It is pointless to administer any more of the original jabs at all. Their target is dead, and there are side effects.

    1. Margot: Yes, wouldn’t that be spectacular. All of a sudden the lefties would care about our borders. Numerous times in my calls to elected representatives, I have said to them, “If the people coming over the (southern) border looked like Canadians and were likely to be Republicans, you would have that border shut so tight a mouse couldn’t get in.”

    2. Democrats will never let Canadian’s who hold the “unacceptable views” flow en masse into the U.S. Just as Democrats will not allow Cubans into the country either. Cubans hold “unacceptable views” so they are not allowed to come. But the southern border is wide open to those ‘migrants’ who the Dems believe will vote as they are trained to vote: Democrat, only.

      No Canadian truckers or Cubans welcome in America under Democrat rule. They are guilty of ‘political wrongthink.’

  17. Leftists do what Leftists do….and hang on Folks….Joe Biden is going to do the same thing right here in this Country.

    He just gave us proof of that didn’t he….just not to the degree that the Punk up North did…..and his Leftist supporters in Parliament.

    Watch the Democrats in Congress stand behind Biden when he does the full Monte act on us.

    Now…any of you keeping up with the latest antics of the CDC and Fauci….not trusting us with Scientific Data….especially the Data that shoots their un-Constitutional abridgment of Individual Freedoms squarely in the butt?

    Where is the Leftist Media on this….heard them exposing any of this?

    1. I wondered how long it would take for a hard-right winger to say left or leftist. Probably by someone who defines that is anyone that doesn’t support TRUMP-style authoritarian government.

      1. bill mcwilliams: Please explain to the class what TRUMP-style authoritarian government is because I never saw it. While he is crass and a major narcissist (like every other president), he loves America, and Americans. I sort of expect people who comment here to be classy. You and Liberty2nd above certainly show otherwise.

      2. bill mcwilliams: Is “TRUMP-style authoritarian governmen” anything like Trudeau-style authoritarian government? Or Biden-style authoritarian government? Because if it is, there’s no evidence, so please share yours.

  19. The Canadian truckers have a more effective tactic available… TOILET PAPER …they control delivery and could cut the Politicians off…nah that’s too cruel…but it would be funny…

  20. Why the left has to be curbed at the ballot box.

    American lefties would do the same if they could, witness the fencing in Washington, the treatment of the 1/6 demonstrators, the expansion of the Capitol Police outside of DC.

    Or read the comments of our resident lefties.

    November will be an acid test.

    1. Some members who opposed the measure voted for it because Trudeau added a “Vote of No Confidence” clause. The government would have fallen and elections would have to be held. Many of those members did not want to face the electorate and run the risk of being voted out of office. Like most politicians, they are counting on the short memories most voters tend to possess.

      1. EconIsEasy: And, like most politicians, they are cowards and criminals. They would impose draconian laws on a population just to save their jobs. They’re going to be surprised by the not so “short memories” of the population.

      2. @Econ – good observation. That’s about what happened, but you have the details wrong. Trudeau refused to call the vote a confidence motion, but let it be known it would be seen as one if the motion failed. Thus, it was regarded as a NC vote and, as both NDP and Liberal members averred, they would/could not vote against it, even if they did not support the Emergency Act. There was some serious backside covering going on yesterday.
        The actual reasons were – the liberals would not win in the next election, not after this crap, so the NDP would lose their hold on controlling the government as the supporting party in a minority government. Also, the NDP, supposedly the workers’ party, has betrayed their base. That’s going to be very costly when they go to the polls. The Liberal Party hasn’t got a lot of money to fight another election after last September’s election. The Conservatives are in the midst of a leadership campaign, and Parliamentary protocol, i.e. a gentlemen’s agreement, won’t permit a federal election under those circumstances. All in all, a lousy time for this vote to have been held. The stars were NOT aligned.
        AND – Maxime Bernier’s People’s Party of Canada pulled away an estimated 35 seats that went to the Liberals, enough to have given the Conservative Party a solid majority. The Liberals who disagreed with the EA know that quite well and were not willing to risk an election where Canadians might vote far more strategically, and send them packing.
        FYI – Conservatives got a higher percentage of the vote than did Liberals last September.

        1. Canuck,
          Would you mind providing me a Canadian civics lesson on how much power the provinces hold relative to the national government? Put another way, how does the Canadian constitution compare with our federalist system?

          Thank you in advance.

          1. Olly – honestly, I’ve never considered that question in the terms you put it. Provinces for example have their own health care ministries that determine policies, but these have to fit within the federal guidelines. Still, lots of room to manoeuvre. Thing is, the feds have the money, via equalization payments to the less fortunate provinces. I’m really going to have to think a lot more on this, but the delineation of powers is not as defined as in the US imo.

            1. A few years ago the Supreme Court held that the health care system in Quebec failed standards to the point that it violated basic human rights. I think much of the problem had to do with wait times. People waited for treatment until they condition was hopeless. I could probably find the case if you like. My impression was that other provinces were not quite so deficient. There are problems though. A few years ago an MP who normally praised the Canadian system flew to LA for treatment when she got breast cancer. I think the Frazier Institute found that about 20,000 Canadians came to the US for healthcare annually. About zero Americans seek healthcare in Canada.

              2. That MP was Belinda Stronach, daughter of the owner of automotive supplier Magna, if memory serves me correctly. There might have been another one, it was quite a while ago. There was quite the furor here over it, but wealthy folk demand immediate gratification and can afford to spend the money to get it. Canada’s system puts everyone on an equal footing. The village dunce has no more right to medical care than the Stronach family, or anyone else in Canada. I’m good with that, but there are times it goes awry. Still, no one dies because they are too poor to afford medical care.
                The wait times in Québec have been a problem, yes. I don’t know if it was a lack of doctors or other facilities, but it needed to be addressed.
                The majority of Canadians who go to the US for health care do so largely for non elective procedures, such as cosmetic surgery, etc., or procedures such as hip or knee replacement for which they don’t want to wait the two or three months it takes to slot them into a surgical bed.
                Remember, Canada is a very large country and constitutionally, the person who lives in a tiny village in the far north, with no roads to get there, is just as entitled to complete health care as the guy in downtown Montréal or Toronto who is six blocks from the hospital. So a great deal of money gets spent on things the US typically has no need of, such as highly qualified nursing staff and clinics in remote outposts, helicopter ambulances and other infrastructure to support the needs of these remote places.
                Probably more than you wanted to know, but it’s a complex subject. And fyi, Canadians live longer than do Americans by several years and the WHO surveys showing that have done so since before 2000, so your much vaunted private health care maybe isn’t as great as you think it is. 🙂

                1. ” village dunce has no more right to medical care than the Stronach family”

                  +++

                  Not true. The Stronach family can go to America.

                    2. Since stupid seems to be your default setting, I’ll try again. As regards Canada, and its health system, no one gets preference. If someone goes to America because they can do so, that’s outside the system and not what I was talking about.

                    3. Canuck: “If someone goes to America because they can do so, that’s outside the system and not what I was talking about.:
                      +++
                      But having the option of going to America IS a part of the entire system from an individual’s point of view even if not from a bureaucrat’s view.

                      You would see that if you got sick and needed treatment available here but not in Canada.

                      Stronach figured it out; so will you if you are desperate.

                    4. So I’m right, Stupid, along with failing to comprehend, are your defaults. IF someone with money chooses to go to America for health care, that’s not part of how the Canadian system operates. The system we have provides equal care for all. No favouritism. No one has to go bankrupt because of health care issues.
                      Takes a lot of stress out of living. I’ve seen firsthand what the US system can do to those who are not financially capable. If you’re wealthy, you’re ok. If not, you get to die, or suffer without help or succour. You can have that. Barbaric system imo.

                    5. “So I’m right, Stupid, along with failing to comprehend, are your defaults. IF someone with money chooses to go to America for health care, that’s not part of how the Canadian system operates.”

                      That means the US is a safety valve for Canada’s system.

                      “The system we have provides equal care for all. No favouritism.”

                      As I said earlier, without criticizing Canada’s system, the care is not equal, queue jumping exists, and money counts (Inuit population as an example.

                      “No one has to go bankrupt because of health care issues.”

                      The bankruptcy issue hyped by Himmelstein was totally wrong, and if you wish to understand why I will discuss it further at your request.

                      “Takes a lot of stress out of living. I’ve seen firsthand what the US system can do to those who are not financially capable. If you’re wealthy, you’re ok. If not, you get to die, or suffer without help or succour. You can have that. Barbaric system imo.”

                      The law is strict with strict penalties. Hospitals must treat urgent and emergency patients even knowing they will not pay and have not paid in the past. The penalties are very high.

                2. Canuck,

                  A couple of measures. A few years ago, and perhaps now, the city of Pittsburgh had more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.

                  The usual response I get when I point that out is that they are overused in the US. That is a quip more than a fact. If you have cauda equina you can be crippled unless it is treated surgically very quickly. I think California makes it almost automatic malpractice if the delay is something like 72 hours [maybe less]. The best way to confirm it is with an MRI and that is done regularly, but it is not likely an option in a country where MRI machines are rationed so tightly.

                  Once I ignored all the details of UK, US and Canadian health care [they are so big you can always find something wrong] and just looked at the survival rates for major illnesses for the entire population. On each one I checked the survival rate was better in the US. That says something.

                  Then to allocation of resources it has been reported that the NHS in the UK is the 5th largest employer in the world and some say the third. When I have this discussion people often throw up franchises like McDonalds as a single employer which would be news to the people who actually pay the employee taxes. However one looks at it, the NHS has a huge number of employees. I think the comparables and larger were the US military, the Chinese Military, and the Indian Railway system, and NO, I am not going to look it up again. Yet, reading the papers in the UK they always complain that the NHS is understaffed and it probably is on the actual healthcare end but likely has a lot of bloat with ‘administrators’. Can you imagine how huge it would be if the US had a similar, barely functional system? They were caught a little while back basically killing off older patients with the “Liverpool Protocol”. There was an uproar when word got out and the Liverpool Protocol was discontinued. I suspect it was the name that was discontinued, not the practice.

                  The Canadian and UK healthcare systems appear basically to be examples of a healthcare system managed by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

                  And, NO, Canadians do not come to the US only for the items you mentioned. Some of them come when treatment delayed means death and too often it is delayed in Canada.

                  2. Young — UK NHS personnel close to the same as US uniformed full-time servicemen (obviously meaning men and women). But the DoD has about 3/4 million civilian employees plus national guards men.

                    1. Professor Buffoon, what the —- are you saying?

                      Are the details you present reliable and factual?

                      The answer is not entirely clear.
                      _________________________

                      Guardsmen
                      _________

                      Merriam-Webster

                      guardsman noun

                      guards·​man | \ ˈgärdz-mən
                      \
                      Definition of guardsman

                      : a member of a military body called guard or guards

                      Examples of guardsman in a Sentence

                      // Guardsmen were deployed to the region.
                      ________________________________

                      “The majority of National Guard soldiers and airmen hold a civilian job full-time while serving part-time as a National Guard member.[3][4] These part-time guardsmen are augmented by a full-time cadre of Active Guard & Reserve (AGR) personnel in both the Army National Guard and Air National Guard, plus Army Reserve Technicians in the Army National Guard and Air Reserve Technicians (ART) in the Air National Guard.”

                      – Wiki

                    2. David, if you are referring to healthcare quality, the UK is a bit low on the list and not just based on CONCORD.

                    1. S. Meyer–

                      Thanks for the link. I looked up the data years ago and came to the same conclusion.

                    2. S. Meyer–

                      That’s a great source! The UK looks truly pathetic on outcomes. Canada is behind the US too but not by so much as the UK. Maybe because some of them like MP Stronach come to the US. I bet Trudeau would come here if he got a serious illness.

                      When I looked into it many years ago I checked only for the UK, US and Canada but I think I got the same ranking but for different cancers [don’t remember which] with US best for survival followed by Canada and then a tawdry showing by the UK. Alexander Fleming opposed forming the NHS. Maybe they should have listened to him. But the lure of ‘free stuff’ dragged them in. Not sure how free it is with a gargantuan workforce.

                  4. “Some of them come when treatment delayed means death and too often it is delayed in Canada.”
                    Ok, data, statistics. Prove your claim or leave it at the door. You seem to be good at research, so do some.

                    1. Well I can do it a priori. We know the Canadian courts say treatment is delayed. If I were a Canadian with a condition that cannot be delayed I would go where it wouldn’t be delayed—South.

                    2. Sure, you can do it a priori. That’s because you have no facts nor data to back your claims up. Plus, that particular case was far more nuanced than you are aware of. You brought it up, but clearly don’t know the details.
                      You lose. Now please, stop talking about things you clearly know nothing about. If you can come back with facts, citations and data, fine. Otherwise, enough out of you.

                3. Studies have shown that affluent Canadians get more and better care than poor Canadians.

                  When discussing studies of longevity, birth statistics, etc., one has to recognize the problems of selection, data control, and many other things. For example, take two identical populations that have similar lifespans. Place one in South Chicago and watch longevity fall.

                  1. We have a large black population with obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and cardiac problems. Those are problems with genetics and lifestyle and quality medical care doesn’t make much impact on them. They also tend to be noncompliant patients.

                    1. You are wrong. You have to be. They are victims. White people are forcing them to become obese. Their diseases exist because there aren’t enough black politicians. What is wrong with you? Are you a racist?

                      ‘Enigma’

                      Of course, just kidding. This is a difficult problem. It starts in the family and isn’t helped with the lousy schools that do not teach the virtues of character instead of race.

                    2. S. Meyer – “This is a difficult problem. It starts in the family”
                      +++

                      Or the lack thereof.

                  2. “Place one in South Chicago and watch longevity fall.” My suggestion would be to deal with the problems in Chicago, in particular, drug use and gang warfare. While your comment is entertaining, it in no way discredits what I’ve said.
                    As for wealthier Canadians getting more and better care, you’re going to need to be far more specific than you’ve been to make that case. There are numerous reasons that such a thing could be true, without discrediting my main point. For example, if your study includes dental and oral care as “health care”, then yes, because dental/oral is not typically included in provincial health plans.

                    1. “While your comment is entertaining, it in no way discredits what I’ve said.”

                      Canuck, I’m not trying to discredit anything you say. I am trying to provide facts and realism. There are a lot of reasons for longevity. I gave one reason of many. Saying the average lifespan in a nation is, for one reason, would be foolhardy, but you know that.

                      Just to make it clear: two people, one killed at age 10 and one dies at age 90. The average longevity is 45 because ~80 years were lost. Two people, one dies at 80 and the other at 90, the average longevity is 85.

                      Take that and include infant mortality or death at age 0. One death markedly changes the numbers. The US counts all deaths. At least in the past, France and Switzerland didn’t count deaths of those born less than so many cm’s or pounds.

                      Wars take 20-30-year-olds and kill them. Genetics are different, Risks vary. There are so many variables one must look at.

                      “As for wealthier Canadians getting more and better care, you’re going to need to be far more specific than you’ve been to make that case.”

                      Please start with the Inuits and tell me whose care is better—the care of the Inuit or the care of rich people in Montreal.

                    2. First of all, the newest choose to live in extremely remote villages. The populations are low as a result. It’s not feasible to build a full services hospital in such areas. on that basis alone, clearly their healthcare is going to be deficient. But that’s not the fault of the system, is it? I can assure you, there are facilities in place to bring these people to proper care when they require it. But if you tell me an Inuit and a Boulevardier walk into an emergency room, and try to claim and they’ll get different care, I’ll guarantee you you’re wrong every time.

                    3. “First of all, the newest choose to live in extremely remote villages. The populations are low as a result. It’s not feasible to build a full services hospital in such areas. on that basis alone, clearly their healthcare is going to be deficient.”

                      You have just proved the more affluent get better care than the less affluent.

                      “But that’s not the fault of the system, is it?”

                      Yes. In fact, that partly has to do with the centralization of medical care in the Canadian system, among other things.

                      “I can assure you, there are facilities in place to bring these people to proper care when they require it. But if you tell me an Inuit and a Boulevardier walk into an emergency room, and try to claim and they’ll get different care, I’ll guarantee you you’re wrong every time.”

                      Canuck, there may be facilities, but they are insufficient.

                      Everywhere care differs from doctor to doctor and from facility to facility. If you think every part of the healthcare chain has identical quality, you are fooling yourself.

              3. Young, I think you refer to Chaoulli v Quebec

                “Access to a waiting list is not access to health care,” __Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin

                Over 15 years ago, the average waiting time for surgery was almost 18 weeks. I do not know if that included the cumulative waiting times involved in getting to the point of surgery. There are waits for the GP, the scans, the consult, and the request for surgery.

                Three of the seven judges were reported to have wanted to declare the healthcare system unconstitutional. I am not sure what they meant by that.

                The ruling: “The prohibition on obtaining private health insurance might be constitutional in circumstances where healthcare services are reasonable as to both quality and timeliness,” it “is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services.”

                2. You are correct about the case being Chaoulli v Quebec. What many people fail to realize is that the wait time for surgery is for all sorts of surgeries, including non life threatening ones. One of the nuances about the Canadian system is that by pushing off non critical surgeries, the system opens up space for critical and life threatening issues to be done immediately. Thus, more can be done with fewer resources, a huge benefit in a country with a small population and a huge land mass.
                  The other thing is that this case was in Quebec, which has a different legal system than in the other 9 provinces. This case likely would not have flown in the rest of Canada.

                  1. Canuck, I haven’t carefully looked into healthcare systems for over a decade. I’m not particularly eager to criticize the various healthcare systems in the world except to say the US gets a bad rap. When I had a specific interest, and if one looked at world healthcare systems, it could be said a few were on the top where the US was probably the leader. Canada scored well but was not among the top few.

                    There are trade-offs with everything we do. There is no equality in healthcare anywhere that I can think of. Look at the Inuits. Do you think their care is as good as the care for those living in Montreal? Look at their longevity. I believe there is more flow to the US for significant problems than you are willing to accept. There are agencies in Canada that make arrangements for Canadians to get healthcare in the US. There is significant queue jumping.

                    As far as critical surgeries, some are delayed, and some sped-up because someone else was bounced. How many times should that person be bounced? With time without changes in the system, the numbers rise and can’t fall. Getting procedures like MRIs was difficult, at least when I looked, and surgeries were being done without their use.

                    I am just touching on the problems, something the US has. In fact, in my estimation, US care is worse since Obamacare and the consolidation of healthcare. However, you should not think emergency and urgent care in the hospital are denied to those who cannot pay. The US has strict laws forcing hospitals to take such patients. The penalties to hospitals and physicians for not doing so are very high.

                    The US pays a massive bill for its healthcare. I believe with appropriate changes, the bill could be cut by 30-50% in a relatively short time without affecting the quality of care. Canada’s healthcare bill, though not as much, is huge as well and was climbing when I last looked.

                    An interesting point that differs Canada from the US is that the US spreads its care over the nation while Canada has a more centralized system. I think I discussed that a long time ago on this blog when there was a discussion of Natasha Richard’s death.

                    Finally, there are three basic things one thinks about healthcare. One can positively alter two at the expense of the third. They are cost, quality, and access.

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