Late Friday, the Justice Department filed its long-awaited appellate filing related to the special master order of United States District Judge Aileen Cannon. While the Administration previously argued that the appointment itself is a threat to national security and unsupportable, it notably dropped its opposition to the appointment on appeal and only appealed one aspect of the order. In its motion for a stay pending appeal, it is only asking the 11th Circuit to allow it to continue using classified documents seized from former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago property in a criminal investigation. The filing may reflect that time is running out for the Administration since a special master is now in place and is likely to prioritize (and release) these very documents. The motion pending appeal does not prevent the DOJ from later challenging the whole appointment but it will come after the special master has begun his work.
While legal experts pushed the department to challenge the entire order, the Department is seeking a smaller target. In litigation the rule is the same as in hunting: “aim small, miss small.” The DOJ could have just asked for a stay based on the arguments that a special master is facially improper. Instead, it focused on access to these documents in the first filing.
Despite a chorus of legal experts claiming that the entire order is legally unfounded and unsupportable, the DOJ is not making those arguments in court. Indeed, it is not making the sweeping demands that it presented before Judge Cannon. It is only seeking access to roughly a hundred out of the thousands of documents seized in the Mar-a-Lago raid.
The filing states
“Although the government believes the district court fundamentally erred in appointing a special master and granting injunctive relief, the government seeks to stay only the portions of the order causing the most serious and immediate harm to the government and the public by (1) restricting the government’s review and use of records bearing classification markings and (2) requiring the government to disclose those records for a special-master review process.”
However, retired judge Raymond Dearie is now in place and was reportedly asked to prioritize those documents. It is likely that he would finish his review of the small number of documents relatively quickly. That would leave the Justice Department potentially with access as Dearie worked through the rest of the thousands of documents seized.
The filing seems intended to not just secure a victory before that release but also to abandon its prior sweeping legal claims. It is a smart move. The first such move in this litigation by the Justice Department. The Eleventh Circuit could always go further on its own to strike down the order or indicate unease with the order as a whole but the Justice Department is only seeking a narrow remedy on the strongest claim dealing with classified documents. The decision on the motion pending appeal could give the DOJ an insight on whether the court is willing to go further on a more general rejection of the order.
That is a change from the prior litigation. Media pundits mouthed the same exaggerated claims and challenged those of us who argued that it was clearly possible to release a redacted affidavit; liberals suddenly shuddered at the thought of doubting the Justice Department. Then the government produced a redacted version that caused no such harms while confirming important facts in the case. The DOJ then made the same claims in opposition to a special master; claiming that the appointment would threaten national security.
The same breathless coverage followed the order that we have seen in prior Trump-related matters. AEI’s Neil Ornstein suggested that Judge Cannon is now engaged in obstruction by simply ordering a third-party review. The over-wrought response to this order is par for the course over the last six years.
Harvard Professor Laurence Tribe (who recently said that Trump could clearly be charged with the attempted murder of former Vice President Michael Pence) declared that an order to appoint a special master to review the documents is analogous to the Dred Scott decision as an abuse of judicial power.
Others have impugned Judge Cannon’s integrity and dismissed her as a “Trump judge.” Ironically, many of these same experts denounced Trump for such attacks on “Obama judges” when they ruled against him.
Most are dismissing the order as utterly without legal merit. Stephen I. Vladeck, a law professor at University of Texas and CNN contributor, expressed outrage at “an unprecedented intervention by a federal district judge into the middle of an ongoing federal criminal and national security investigation.” (Vladeck was one of the experts who previously supported an array of criminal allegations against Trump and pushed a false claim related to the clearing of Lafayette Park). While it is admittedly less common to use a special master in a criminal case, it is not “unprecedented” for a court to conduct in camera reviews of seized material. In this case, the court wants to use a special master to perform that function. Moreover, special masters are commonly appointed in the federal courts in an array of cases where judges need assistance in creating a record for a ruling on motions.
Now, after all of those over-wrought claims, the DOJ is only asking for access to the 100 documents — which is precisely where Dearie is expected to begin.
The DOJ would clearly like to eke out a victory before the Special Master rules. He is likely to give access to the documents as legitimately in the possession of the government. That would not only allow the use of the documents in the criminal investigation but it would blunt any negative ruling over other material that may have been improperly seized or retained. The DOJ itself acknowledged not just errors in its filtering process but also the seizure of potentially attorney-client protected material.
The question now will be whether the Eleventh Circuit wants to expedite the matter to order the access or give Dearie a chance to release the documents after a review. If Dearie were to act quickly, it could moot the appeal.
The only delay might be a challenge over the executive privilege claims that President Trump has raised with the Court. Judge Cannon has noted that the Court has never conclusively held that a former president cannot raise such privilege arguments. However, access could be restored before that question is resolved by the trial court though the Trump team could still object. Conversely, it is not clear if the 11th Circuit will view that question as a threshold matter to be resolved before any access is given. If so, there would be a need for a full briefing and argument on the constitutional and statutory issues.
Here is the filing: DOJ Motion Pending Appeal
You recycled the SAME paragraph – verbatim – about Professor Vladeck that you had in an earlier posting from September 6th. Shame on you, Turley.
Fruit of the forbidden tree. If one was seized illegally they all were. This is the fed trying to parse the 4th A from their mmisconduct.
None of the comments that JT provides for Vladek, Ornstein, and Tribe have to do with the stay motion and in some cases (Lafayette Square and Pence) have nothing to do with this documents dispute.
FIRST THING SM/ RET. JUDGE DEARIE WILL HOPEFULLY DO TUESDAY IS ASK THE DOJ THEIR BASIS FOR CLAIMING EACH & EVERY ONE OF THOSE 100 DOCUMENTS “MARKED CLASSIFIED” ARE IN FACT CURRENTLY “CLASSIFIED”.
If DOJ is UNABLE to immediately prove that each doc is currently still “Classified” (which DOJ is unlikely to be able to do), then Dearie will hopefully then offer DOJ (as to each unproven ”Classified” status document) the chance to immediately release such docs back to Trump. – {Judge Cannon has already ruled that Trump has the right under the Presidential Records Act (PRA) to have separated docs from his time in Office bt Presidential Papers & Personal Papers, and Cannon has asked the SM to have Team Trump identify what docs have been so-appointed as which.}
DOJ may still (unwisely) object bc, eg: DOJ still thinks it can prove a doc is nonetheless currently still “classified” (which means it would also have to prove it wasnt also privileged); or bc DOJ continues to be under the misguided belief that it has legal authority to seize docs that are under the PRA, years after a POTUS leaves office, while (wrongly) claiming (as they have here) that it deems FPOTUS’ mere possession of a doc created during his Presidency as illegal/criminal and/or as a “National Security Threat”.
– – – This particular DOJ team seems oddly unskilled enough or off-base enough, or weaponized enough, to nonetheless continue this approach. Indeed, this seems to be the umbrella they’ve been trying to hide under here, all along; ie under the guise of “its so dangerous for Bad Orange Man to have these docs” and/or “we are just trying protect the country/not go after our bosses political rival!”.
… But, the DOJ has repeatedly now failed to take yet another of Judge Cannon’s earlier, huge HINTs into account here; Regarding their Natl Sec Claim, Cannon specifically allowed other FED investigators outside DOJ to continue to assess any actual National Security threat (ie to determine if such was actually triggered by a FPOTUS holding & having access to certain docs). The HINT here is that this issue belongs elsewhere to determine the threat first, taking into account the FPOTUS stature, the rules + policies surrounding that stature, etc. AKA, the DOJ cannot try to prosecute a FPOTUS simply bc DOJ believes there possibly could be a Natl security threat involved! The “Trust us, Fox guarding the Henhouse” approach stopped working for DOJ & FBI long ago!
DOJ may still continue this farce of objecting to Dearie and/or Cannon finding that any doc belongs under the PRA & is “Unclassified” absent contrary proof or finding, but an Appeals Court may decide not even to hear that issue (bc Abuse of Discretion is the standard, and Cannon was aided by a highly-respected, experienced Judge/SM – that DOJ agreed to!). And, even if such an Appeal is heard, the Appellate Court could rule that documents marked “classified” should nonetheless still go back to Trump (again, if DOJ CANNOT prove they’re currently “classified” & if its clear to Dearie/Cannon/Appellate Ct. that they are not “Classified”, and unless + until other FED investigators confirm there’s a Natl Sec threat involved. But, a finding of the latter still does not mean evidence of a crime committed by Trump!)
– – -This will all really matter, for example, if Project Hurricane docs are involved, as many suspect they are here. That’s bc any & all Project Hurricane Docs have already been declassified via written, public order, & thus such docs can be retained & appointed by Trump as Presidential or Personal Papers since they’re squarely thus covered by the PRA. – – – [Politically, this is obviously something DEMs do not want a SM or anyone to know & see!]
And if declassified Project Hurricane docs are found here, and DOJ still claims National Security concerns (as it just did again in its Appeal), then at this point the gig would pretty much be up; ie it would be clear to the Courts that DOJ had indeed abused its Seizure powers by trying to obtain documents that were “marked classified”, falsely implying to the Warrant Court that they indeed were confirmed as classified, while knowing full-well & not disclosing to the Warrant Court (or to Judge Cannon, for that matter) that there was written, contra-evidence or argument of such current classifications despite the “markings”; ie just like w the FISA Court & Carter Page, the FEDs hid the full truth from the Court while also stripping a US citizen of their Constitutional rights. Dearie especially may not appreciate this approach, and indeed may be leery of it from the outset!
SIDE-NOTE: NARAs only jurisdiction & relevance here is to retain “Legal” ownership of Presidential Papers, while allowing a FPOTUS ease of access as much as he wants, for several years, in order to implement Presidential Library, etc. NARA should have been helping Trump’s FPOTUS, federally-funded Office set up a Warehouse/ other secure storage area (for whatever Trump had deemed were his Presidential records) near/within Mara Lago…instead of accusing Trump of being a thief/criminal from the outset when NARA decided it didnt like the way Trump was currently storing things. This is especially true when one looks at the PRA rules & NARA’s treatment of other Former Presidents. For example, NARA did not refer Obama to DOJ for criminal probe when it found out Obama had taken eg 30,000+ documents years ago and not digitalized them as promised. Instead, NARA helped Obama’s FPOTUS office establish secure storage in Chicago; where NARA had legal title to the docs, but Obama could readily access as he pleased (aka Obama had equitable ownership…just as Trump does re his PRA docs!)
– – – MORAL: EXCEPT FOR WHERE THE DOJ CAN OVERCOME THE VERY HIGH HURLDE OF PROVING THAT A DOCUMENT SEIZED FROM TRUMP WAS ACTUALLY STILL CLASSIFIED (and not privileged!), ALL THE SEIZED PROPERTY & DOCS SHOULD GO BACK TO TRUMP.
FURTHERMORE, ABSENT A SUBSEQUENT, LEGITIMATE FINDING OUTSIDE THE DOJ THAT A CLEAR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT WAS CREATED BY RETENTION OF A DOCUMENT AS PART OF TRUMP’s PRESIDENTIAL OR PERSONAL RECORDS, THEN TRUMP SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP EVERYTHING, AND NARA WILL HAVE TO NOW WORK WITH TRUMP (as it should have from the very beginning) IN THE SAME GRATUITOUS FASHION (MUCH LIKE IT WORKED W OBAMA ETC) IN MAKING ANY PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS SECURE & READILY AVAILABLE TO TRUMP, IN A MANOR CONVENIENT TO TRZMP! ….AND, IN NO EVENT SHOULD A MERE FINDING THAT TRUMP’s RETENTION OF ANYTHING UNDER THE PRA SUDDENLY CONSTITUTES A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT MEAN THAT TRUMP IS GUILTY OF COMMITTING ANY CRIME HERE.
I’m not a lawyer, but still read your entire post. I agree – we don’t know what Trump’s team’s strategy is here.
One thing missing from your analysis is the naked fact that it is Constitutionally impossible for any POTUS to make a “mistake” with national secrets, markings or not. Navy vs Egan made that clear – POTUS’ power over secrets is like SCOTUS’ power over our laws and Constitution. If he took it home, it is implicit that he declassified it and gave himself authorization to possess it – period.
No mere law passed by Congress can control, limit, or criminalize POTUS’ choices regarding secrets any more than a mere law passed by Congress may decree that SCOTUS no longer has the power to declare their laws unconstitutional – separation of powers absolutely forbids it. That means the warrant itself, having listed only Congressionally defined statutes (“crimes”) all having to do with national secrets, is literally inapplicable to Trump, thus illegal and standing as prima facia proof of criminal conspiracy between those who ordered it (Garland), signed it (Reinhart), and executed it (the same FBI thugs already under Federal criminal investigation for this sort of rights violation against Trump previously) to violate his Constitutional rights yet again. That, and the warrant probably violates the fourth Amendment proscription against broad warrants.
I don’t see the advantage to Trump in not immediately filing these criminal charges against the Stasi.
Agree. What also sux is that public doesnt realize how unconstitutional the warrant itself was, and that end of day, none if the docs or items seized would ever be allowed in an honest court as evidence against Trump ina criminal case here. It’s all fruit of the poisonous tree, but Trump can’t legally make that claim until after he’s indicted, if he ever is here. In fact, that may be why, if they never do indict him…..This was just a massive F-up by the DOJ. Prof Turley’s too civilized to actually say the words, but that’s what it is!
There are some documents that the president can not declassify or even downgrade the classification. Those documents dealing with nuclear weaponry can be declassified or downgraded only by the originating agency, usually the DOE.
I don’t think that’s true! In the case against former Pres. Bill Clinton not handing over tapes he made while in office, Judge Amy Berman Jackson said that a President can “declassify” ANY document he so chooses, no matter what it’s markings are—classified, top secret, or confidential. Her ruling still stands today, and has never been revoked or rescinded. She also stated that all documents are “declassified” by a President walking out the door of the WH with them, and taking them to his or her home! She stated that the PRA (Presidential Records Act) does not allow the mishandling of documents to be a “criminal” offense, but that a U.S. President cannot be charged “even civilly” over what the NARA, or any other government Agency considers “mishandling of documents.”
Wally is spot on! Nuclear secrets can’t be declassified (Atomic Energy Acts).
But Constitution Trumps an Act of Congress outside of Constitutional Amendment. Has this issue been litigated yet do you know?
assuming a personal letter from Kim Jong-Un counts as a Nuclear Secret!
methinks only a spoon-fed media would believe such malarkey
Dearest Don,
I love you, man. I’ll never blow up your country while you da man. Maybe later, but I won’t hit you! Peace out.
Love, Kim
Maybe/Maybe not. The particular issue hasn’t been litigated to my knowledge but there is language I believe somewhere re: the types of Agency docs you mention cant be declassified even by POTUS.
– If that language is merely in eg Obamas prior EO, then although Trump didn’t undo that EO with his own, that standing EO may still not be firmly binding or dispositive legally on the issue. (EOs can themselves be unlawful/unconstitutional in whole or in part, and there is definitely an argument here that: even a current Chief Executive cant override the broad powers afforded his office by the Constitution (absent Constitutional Amendment, of course).
– But, if that Agency-limiting language is instead contained within the PRA itself (apologies, I still don’t recall whether EO or PRA contains the referenced provision & am too tired to take 1 minute to look it up-forgive😬🙏🏽🥱), then that may give your claim more credence. Nonetheless, this would still be an issue for the Courts and should similarly hinge on any conflict w the Constitution and/or facts that most of us aren’t familiar with; eg, do POTUS’ usually end up retaining any of those SuperSecret docs when presented by an Agency? (BTW, the PRA isnt a criminal statute/doesn’t prescribe criminal sanctions for violating it; hence, no one can be prosecuted for violating the PRA if it contains the Agency documents exception language.)
On a side note, it seems like any SuperSecret Agency docs should never be left w a current POTUS as a matter of SuperSecretStuff protocol; ie, you show him the doc, or bring in for discussion, and then you leave with the SuperSecret docs, placed back into the proverbial briefcase that is locked to your wrist! – – – Otw, eg US Nuclear Secrets may end up in Presidential Libraries across the land! 😳
Nope. This idiotic claim keeps getting made by left wing nuts.
Congress can not delegate a power to the executive without it being a power of the president.
There are myriads of cases on this. Further national security is an executive power, Congresses ability to regulate it at all is limited. That is WHY there are executive orders regarding the classification and declassification of documents.
Because those are executive, not legislative powers.
But since it is clear you can not grasp a very simple constitutional argument supported by many cases.
Google will demonstrate fairly quickly that Pres. Obama declassified several nuclear secrets during his presidency.
It is really really stupid for the left to be Arguing that President Trump could not do something that President Obama did.
But that is typical of the left. No standards except double standards.
“Navy vs Egan made that clear – POTUS’ power over secrets is like SCOTUS’ power over our laws and Constitution. If he took it home, it is implicit that he declassified it and gave himself authorization to possess it – period.”
Don’t shoot the messenger: President Biden revoked his predicessors executive privilege Here is an excerpt of Archivist’s letter (her reference goes to Christopher H. Schroeder) to Evan Corcoran, former President Trumps lawyer:
” […] The Assistant Attorney General has advised me that there is no precedent for an assertion of executive privilege by a former President against an incumbent President to prevent the latter from obtaining from NARA Presidential records belonging to the Federal Government where “such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and that is not otherwise available.” 44 U.S.C. § 2205(2)(B).
To the contrary, the Supreme Court’s decision in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S. 425 (1977), strongly suggests that a former President may not successfully assert executive privilege “against the very Executive Branch in whose name the privilege is invoked.” Id. at 447-48. […]”
https://www.archives.gov/files/foia/wall-letter-to-evan-corcoran-re-trump-boxes-05.10.2022.pdf
Moxie, why do you think classified documents are to be treated differently from unclassified under the PRA if they all are presidential records?
That’s the inherent argument it seems DOJ is round-about trying to make without actually clearly making it. It’s hard bc they’re all over the place misinterpretating the law and repeating non-evidentiary claims & opinion as if they’re fact. It’s surreal & really pretty astounding to see them lawyering so poorls here; not like them historically, anyway.
As for me, Im in the “It’s all under the PRA camp”, as the applicable laws & even Court precedent from staunch anti-Trump Judge states. …..But then, I wouldnt have tried to criminalize a FPOTUS’ handling of his Presidential or Personal papers absent any actual evidence, especially when NARA hadn’t done its job to step in and help him secure them. BTW, I guess NARA guy retired right after Biden Inc had him make the DOJ referral; no doubt he knew this would come back to bite NARA, too!
Your thoughts?
Moxie, it seems to me that the PRA creates a special regime for presidential records and that it does not distinguish between classified and unclassified documents. Nor do the statutes relied on for the search. I believe presidents have virtually complete declassification power, but I think that’s largely beside the point here.
The PRA is a civil not a criminal statute. So is a president subject to criminal sanction under other laws for matters covered by the PRA such as the handling of presidential records? Rivkin and Casey argued in the WSJ that he is not. That may be an extreme position.
What do you think?
I agree wholly w you as to your 1st point/para. As to your 2nd point/para: I believe that honest Courts (including current SCOTUS) would eventually find: that most if not all of the seized docs fall under the PRA; that a FPOTUS can NOT be prosecuted for not properly handling his Presidential or Personal papers under the PRA specifics and/or to anyone else’s satisfaction; and that the Warrant here was not supported by the law or the facts (and was far too broad, to boot)!
The DOJ, however, is spinning the law quite dizzily on its ears here. {This is also a further clue to me that usual Deep State or other corrupt actors like Biden Inc. have interfered to weaponize DOJ & FBI here; DOJ are usually pretty good, but they lawyer poorly like this when eg, Biden Inc. demands they try to support something that’s probably unlawful/unsupportable!}
However, I think the SM may be able to avoid having to deal w even stepping near the DOJ’s pile of legal nonsense if he can focus from the outset on DOJs continued emphasis on documents w “classified” markings.
{This should be especially easy now as DOJ appealed precisely this & only this issue on Friday night (also a DOJ major error for several reasons, in my view). So, if the SM doesn’t focus this issue straight away, a smart Appellate Court may tell him to; by quickly sending the issue down for the SM to resolve bf Appellate Court decides Appeal of the Stay. (DOJ should have Appealed the SM on Friday, too, in my humble view; precisely in order to be able to try and halt this SM action if SM attempts or Appellate Ct. requests it.)}
By honing-in from the outset on the otw fairly-narrow issue of classification that the DOJ keeps demanding focus on, a knowledgeable arbiter here like the SM (and not eg, Rhinehart, a local Magistrate), will likely operate under a reasonable & fair interpretation of applicable law; ie the DOJ must have had actual evidence (not just “Putin’s Puppet/Orange Man Bad”) that there was at least 1 super-secret Agency document (eg actual US Nuclear Secrets & not some copy of a Memo or Article about possible foreign Nukes ) contained within the docs that Trump kept.
– – – Assuming arguendo that the DOJ can prove this, then a whole lotta Court activity will subsequently take place as appeals, issues of privileges, the constitutionally of the Agency exception, etc. will need to be litigated bf a Court can determine what docs rightfully can be equitably held Trump.
– – – But, if (as many of us suspect) no such super-secret Agency document exists within the 100 documents w classified markings identified by the DOJ, then much of the DOJ spin & pundit-identified issues can possibly go away for the SM; bc the DOJ was unable to support its position that it had a right to & then keep anything from Mara Lago. – If this happens, then SM may advise the Court that all the docs may come under the PRA; they’re either Personal or Presidential papers, and (as Cannon specified in her order) Team Trump is to work w SM to identify which is which (presumably so that Nara can be ordered by Court finally do it’s job under the PRA….rather than just criminally refer to DOJ when it doesn’t like how a FPOTUS is securing PRA docs under his allowed equitable ownership & NARA’s prescribed “legal” ownership.
End of day, SM may advise court that all docs & items sb returned to Trump if they all indeed fall under the PRA (for which there is no criminal liability, as Judge Cannon may later explain in her post-SM ruling.
If Trump is claiming that documents with classification markings on them are unclassifed, it’s his responsibility to prove it, not the DOJ’s responsibility to disprove it. Regardless of whether they are or aren’t classified, they’re government documents, not Trump’s personal belongings.
The Presidential Records Act disagrees with you.
This is an entirely moot children’s game in a kindergarten sand box; a tempest in a teapot.
Classification and declassification of material is an exclusive function of the executive branch.
At the point in time when the president conceived declassification of any or all material, that material was declassified.
No legislation to affect classification or declassification of material of the executive branch is possible or constitutional.
The legislative branch has no power to usurp the power of the executive branch.
Power of the executive branch may only be transferred to the legislative branch through amendment.
The legislative branch may attempt to impeach a sitting president for any reason.
Ideations of members of the legislative or judicial branches do not bear.
Nonsense.
The PRA’s sole reference to declassification is “For provisions authorizing Archivist to review, downgrade, and declassify information of former Presidents under control of Archivist pursuant to this section, see Ex. Ord. No. 13526, §3.5(b), Dec. 29, 2009, 75 F.R. 718, set out as a note under section 3161 of Title 50, War and National Defense.”
Also Trump admitted that some of the records are subject to the Federal Records Act, not the Presidential Records Act.
Nonsense.
The legislative branch has no power to transfer any power of the executive branch to itself; to effect that, the legislative branch must ratify a constitutional amendment.
Ridiculous nonsense.
The Executive signs legislation, making it binding on the Executive Branch.
Former Pres. Trump has the “total discretion” to decide which documents HE considered “personal” and which he considered “governmental.” NO ONE else in Fed. Government can decide that—-only a U.S. President can.
You’re confusing what a sitting President and a former President can do. A former President does not have the discretion you assert, and Trump has presented zero evidence that he declared any of these government documents to be personal records while he was the sitting President. Moreover, even a sitting President cannot declare FRA documents to be personal records. You’re ignoring the difference between the FRA and the PRA.
Exactly when during a current President’s very busy day, is he to take the hours required (every single day) to carefully go through every single document, item, Memo, post-it, picture, breakfast menu, itineraries, invitations, corrected/updated docs, articles, periodicals/newspapers, clippings, gifts, letters, folders, envelopes, bills, spreadsheets, charts, graphs, presentations, emails, etc that he’s been given personally and/or electronically that day ……so that he can parse out what he may down the road want to label as Personal vs what will eventually go in his Presidential Library, Nat’l archives, etc?
Think….
PRA states that it “ Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).“ Per the PRA, it will be years after a POTUS leaves office bf NARA can publicly release.
Innocent until proven guilty.
The govt must rebutt the Presidents unlimited power to declassify.
The DOJ doesn’t dispute that a SITTING President has “unlimited power to declassify.”
Trump is NOT the sitting President.
If Trump wants to assert to the court that he declassified these WHILE he was the sitting President, he actually has to make that argument. To date, he has not.
You can keep pretending that Trump wasn’t actually President from 2017-2021 and that, as such, he didnt have blanket authority to declassify anything in any way he wanted to, while he was sitting President; but that won’t change the fact that he was & he did. Thus, as sitting POTUS the morning of Jan 20, 2021…whatever Trump took to Mara Lago or Tim-Buk-Tu at anytime bf and including that moment while he was POTUS, automatically became declassified.
No, I cannot “keep pretending” something I have never pretended.
Things do not “automatically [become] declassified,” there is a process for declassification so that the government knows what has been declassified. Trump has not claimed in any of his legal replies that the items in question were declassified. More to the point: none of the alleged crimes hinge on whether the documents were/weren’t classified. Have you read the text of the 3 alleged crimes?
“There in the law”there is a process for declassification so that the government knows what has been declassified.”
Where in the law does it state criminal activity exists if the government fails to recognize what is declassified?
“Trump has not claimed in any of his legal replies that the items in question were declassified.”
Where does the law dictate what Trump’s lawyers must say?
“Have you read the text of the 3 alleged crimes?”
Why do you keep asking people who understand the process better than you if they have read things? You keep repeating this question while getting things all confused and making invalid assumptions.
I read all three of the criminal statutes that the DOJ cited and given what we currently know, there is no evidence that has been provided that will support violations of any of those laws.
Frankly the laws cited make this look even more like a general warrant.
It is possible that DOJ/FBI may be able to prove their case, but that requires evidence the public is not aware of.
In a different time many of us would have given the FBI/DOJ the benefit of the doubt.
Today when the FBI’s I personally meet almost all the criteria the FBI has set to be considered a Domestic terrorist – sorry, they just do not have my Trust.
I have 4 different permutations of the Gadsen Flag at my home, and I have been flying one of those since 9/11/2001.
Within days of the attack, my family went into our front yard and put up a flag pole, flying an american flag with the Gadsen flag below it. I have been flying one for more than 20 years. Initially it was a message to foreign terrorists.
Do not F#ck with America. today it is a message to the left and to our government.
My son-in-law lives with me and he is a gun collector, He has nearly a half dozen different guns.
I am familiar with and constantly cite our founding fathers.
About the only check box I do not tick, is that of being argumentative at school board meetings.
My children are adults, and they were cyber chartered. If I had problems with the school, I could fix them trivially by changing schools. I was not stuck with whatever some left wing nut school board decided to impose by dictat.
I would have ended up a mishipmen at anapolis – except my Eyes were just beyond waiverable. I have held a top secret security clearance. I have worked as a defense contractor for years. I have been to the Pentagon and to the NSA.
I have worked for FBI. Some of the products the company I was a founder of produced are used by the FBI to decrypted highly encrypted emails. Many of my friends are law enforcement – most of those are decent people. More recently I have had FBI investigations because I do inspections of Marijuana dispensaries and grow houses as a consultant.
I am pretty much NOT a domestic terrorist. Bu I have little doubt given what we now know that FaceBook or Twitter have likely reported me to the FBI as one.
So No, DOJ/FBI do not get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Having been caught repeatedly lying and spying and conducting unconstitutional investigations does not help.
You say this with such assurance, yet you don’t know and a court might be needed to decide. The classification markings will not be dispositive in this case.
You are so certain about what you wish to believe and wrong so many times that you have no credibility.
What’s the legal conflict?
Professor, after reading your take a 2nd time, I am still unsure about the legal conflict:
If I am not mistaken, the dispute narrows to 100 documents with “classification markings”, which are missed though they “belong to the Government”. In other words: The former President took the original document; This is beyond my imagination: It’s much more likely that he stored a copy (from – in his view – a declassified original). and – as he was 18 months out of office as the search warrant was executed – maybe there are other copies around.
If that’s the game: The government has access to the original,. regardless of what copies they may have retrieved from Mar-a-Lago. If so, what was the goal? To prevent the former President to use the content of these documents? To prevent the general public to see it [what’s the goal of NARA (who says that only 1-3% of documents are so important that they are kept forever)?] Are the documents connected to “Crossfire Hurrican” FBI investigation?
Those of us who are in the know: Durham investigation is ongoing and recently Judge Donald M. Middlebrooks dismissed a civil lawsuit the former President filed against Hillary Clinton and others (Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax), because “they lack any specific allegations which might provide factual support for the conclusions reached”. There were no attachments and/or citations to the documentary evidence in the 108-page filing, Did Trumps legal team miss them by flaw or by intention?
All good questions. It would seem Trump could appeal the dismissal – I don’t think there’s anyone left in America who doesn’t realize Hillary hired a Russian spy to smear Trump. So I am a bit mystified by all the shenanigans going on.
“I don’t think there’s anyone left in America who doesn’t realize Hillary hired a Russian spy to smear Trump.”
As there are “Laptop from Hell” deniers, [1] (more than 50 former intels wrote a letter about “Russian disinfo”) there are a lot of people how think ’16 Presidential election was stolen from,her including Hillary!
[1] https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2022/09/16/medias-top-eight-hunter-biden-laptop-deniers-and-many-many-honorable-mentions/
I agree with you. Here’s my humble, armchair legal take in layman’s terms…(2 law degrees + highest marks in NYS in both criminal law & FED procedure; for whatever that’s worth, aka not much + was some years ago 😬)
Forgive typos on dictation…thnks
*******
FIRST THING SM/ RET. JUDGE DEARIE WILL HOPEFULLY DO TUESDAY IS ASK THE DOJ THEIR BASIS FOR CLAIMING EACH & EVERY ONE OF THOSE 100 DOCUMENTS “MARKED CLASSIFIED” ARE IN FACT CURRENTLY “CLASSIFIED”.
If DOJ is UNABLE to immediately prove that each doc is currently still “Classified” (which DOJ is unlikely to be able to do), then Dearie will hopefully then offer DOJ (as to each unproven ”Classified” status document) the chance to immediately release such doc(s) back to Trump. – {Judge Cannon has already ruled that Trump has the right under the Presidential Records Act (PRA) to have separated docs from his time in Office bt Presidential Papers & Personal Papers, and Cannon has asked the SM to have Team Trump work w the SM to identify what docs have been so-appointed as which.}
DOJ may still (unwisely) object bc, eg: DOJ still thinks it can prove a doc is nonetheless currently still “classified” (which means it would also have to prove it wasnt also privileged); or bc DOJ continues to be under the misguided belief that it has legal authority to seize docs that are under the PRA, years after a POTUS leaves office, while (wrongly) claiming (as they have here) that it deems FPOTUS’ mere possession of a doc created during his Presidency as illegal/criminal and/or as a “National Security Threat”.
– – – This particular DOJ team seems oddly unskilled enough or off-base enough, or weaponized enough, to nonetheless continue this approach. Indeed, this seems to be the umbrella they’ve been trying to hide under here, all along; ie under the guise of “its so dangerous for Bad Orange Man to have these docs” and/or “we are just trying protect the country/not go after our bosses political rival!”.
… But, the DOJ has repeatedly now failed to take yet another of Judge Cannon’s earlier, huge HINTs into account here; Regarding DOJ’s continued but still-unproven Natl Sec Claim, Cannon specifically allowed other FED investigators outside DOJ to continue to assess any actual National Security threat (ie to determine if such was actually triggered by a FPOTUS holding & having access to certain docs). The HINT here is that this issue belongs elsewhere to determine the threat first, taking into account the FPOTUS stature, the rules + policies surrounding that stature, etc. AKA, the DOJ cannot try to prosecute a FPOTUS simply bc DOJ believes there possibly could be a Natl security threat involved in his holding/accessing his own Presidential Records! The “Trust us, Fox guarding the Henhouse” approach stopped working for DOJ & FBI long ago!
DOJ may still continue this farce of objecting to a Dearie and/or Cannon finding that any doc belongs under the PRA & is “Unclassified” absent contrary proof or finding, but an Appeals Court may decide not even to hear that issue (bc Abuse of Discretion is the standard, and Cannon was aided by a highly-respected, experienced Judge/SM – that DOJ agreed to!). And, even if such an Appeal is heard, the Appellate Court could rule that documents marked “classified” should nonetheless still go back to Trump (again, if DOJ CANNOT prove they’re currently “classified” & if it’s clear to Dearie/Cannon/Appellate Ct. that they are not “Classified”, and unless + until other FED investigators confirm there’s a Natl Sec threat involved. But, a finding of the latter still does not mean evidence of a crime committed by Trump!)
– – -This will all really matter, for example, if Project Hurricane docs are involved, as many suspect they are here. That’s bc any & all Project Hurricane Docs have already been declassified via written, public order, & thus such docs can be retained & appointed by Trump as Presidential or Personal Papers since they’re squarely thus covered by the PRA. – – – [Politically, this is obviously something DEMs do not want a SM or anyone to know & see!]
And, if declassified Project Hurricane docs are found here, and DOJ still claims National Security concerns (as it just did again in its Appeal), then at this point the gig would pretty much be up; ie it would be clear to the Courts that DOJ had indeed abused its Seizure powers by trying to obtain documents that were “marked classified”, falsely implying to the Warrant Court that they indeed were confirmed as classified, while knowing full-well & not disclosing to the Warrant Court (or to Judge Cannon, for that matter) that there was written, contra-evidence or argument of such current classifications despite the “markings”; ie just like w the FISA Court & Carter Page, the FEDs hid the full truth from the Court while also stripping a US citizen of their Constitutional rights. Dearie especially may not appreciate this approach, and indeed may be leery of it from the outset!
SIDE-NOTE: NARAs only jurisdiction & relevance here is to retain “Legal” ownership of Presidential Papers, while allowing a FPOTUS ease of access as much as he wants, for several years, in order to implement Presidential Library, etc. NARA should have been helping Trump’s FPOTUS, federally-funded Office set up a Warehouse/ other secure storage area (for whatever Trump had deemed were his Presidential records) near/within Mara Lago…instead of accusing Trump of being a thief/criminal from the outset when NARA decided it didnt like the way Trump was currently storing things. This is especially true when one looks at the PRA rules & NARA’s treatment of other Former Presidents. For example, NARA did not refer Obama to DOJ for criminal probe when it found out Obama had taken eg 30,000+ documents years ago and not digitalized them as promised. Instead, NARA helped Obama’s FPOTUS office establish secure storage in Chicago; where NARA had “legal title” to the docs, but Obama could readily access as he pleased (aka Obama had “equitable” ownership,…just as Trump does re his PRA docs!)
– – – MORAL: EXCEPT FOR WHERE THE DOJ CAN OVERCOME THE VERY HIGH HURLDE OF PROVING THAT A DOCUMENT SEIZED FROM TRUMP WAS ACTUALLY STILL CLASSIFIED (and not privileged!), ALL THE SEIZED PROPERTY & DOCS SHOULD GO BACK TO TRUMP.
FURTHERMORE, ABSENT A SUBSEQUENT, LEGITIMATE FINDING OUTSIDE THE DOJ THAT A CLEAR NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT WAS CREATED BY RETENTION OF A DOCUMENT AS PART OF TRUMP’s PRESIDENTIAL OR PERSONAL RECORDS, THEN TRUMP SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP EVERYTHING, AND NARA WILL HAVE TO NOW WORK WITH TRUMP (as it should have from the very beginning) IN THE SAME GRATUITOUS FASHION (MUCH LIKE IT WORKED W OBAMA ETC) IN MAKING ANY PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS SECURE & READILY AVAILABLE TO TRUMP, IN A MANOR CONVENIENT TO TRUMP! ….AND, IN NO EVENT SHOULD A MERE FINDING THAT TRUMP’s RETENTION OF ANYTHING UNDER THE PRA SUDDENLY CONSTITUTES A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT MEAN THAT TRUMP IS GUILTY OF COMMITTING ANY CRIME MERELY BY VIRTUE OF HIS BEING A FPOTUS & HAVING HIS PRESIDENTIAL & PERSONAL PAPERS DROM HIS TIME IN OFFICE.
You are completely missing the point:
public by (1) restricting the government’s review and use of records bearing classification markings and (2) requiring the government to disclose those records for a special-master review process.”
The main push is for #2, which is to DENY the Special Master ACCESS to any documents that the Deep State has declared “classified”.
It’s not about their ability to look at them, it’s about keeping the special master from looking at them, and exposing all the lies they’ve pushed about them
That’s certainly part of it. I’m still puzzled that the Trump team hasn’t filed criminal conspiracy charges against Garland and Reinhart over the false premise of the illegal warrant, which was patently unconstitutional, but I have hopes it is because they hope to make even more mischief for them with discovery before they have the witch hunt shut down and Garland tossed in prison.
Trump is a private citizen and cannot file criminal charges against anyone.
That is false. Private citizens can file criminal complaints.
google “private criminal complaint”
I was talking about federal criminal law, not state criminal laws, but since you introduce state laws: FL and DC do not enable that. Trump does not live in your state.
You were not “talking about” – you were responding to someone else’s claims.
Regardless, you made a demonstrably false statement about the law.
Maybe you are now correct about DC, FL, … I have no interest in chasing you into irrelevant bushes far enough to find the rare cases in which you are not completely wrong.
Got It ! – Dirty Swamp Rats don’t want to Us know the ‘Dirt’ that makes them Dirty Swamp Rats.
[Classified Information] Only Dirty Swamp Rats ‘Need-to-Know’ other Dirty Swamp Rats.
How come we haven’t heard anything at all lately about the illegal alien 27-year old Guatemalan living in Ohio who raped a 10-year old girl who had to travel to Indiana to get an abortion?
Anyone? Anyone??
It seems to me that this appeal is substantially the same as the motion DOJ made and lost at the District Court: to allow DOJ to use the content of documents with classified markings in its criminal investigation. In rejecting this motion, the Judge accommodated the DOJ’s desire by ordering the Special Master to deal with these documents first.
Whether these documents were declassified by Trump is irrelevant. The statutes used to justify the search warrant do not hinge on whether information is classified but rather whether it is relevant to the national defence. DOJ apparently takes the view that documents with classified markings are in fact relevant to the national defence; I doubt that that is true in all cases.
DOJ also apparently takes the view that documents with classified markings could never benefit from either of the privileges at issue here. I also doubt that that is true.
Finally, documents marked classified could be presidential records, not federal government records. Trump’s filings state that the former are subject to a different regime than the latter, and this could have implications for how the DOJ is permitted to deal with them, and whether how they were handled could serve as a basis for criminal charges under two of the statutes mentioned, and maybe all three. This is a point made by Rivkin and Casey in a WSJ op ed a while ago.
Too much weight is being put on classification markings in all these discussions. Given the propensity of the government to overclassify, the Judge is right to view DOJ’s claims sceptically.
Daniel,
Re: “DOJ apparently takes the view that documents with classified markings are in fact relevant to the national defence; I doubt that that is true in all cases,” they didn’t assert it in general. They did assert other things, such as: these specific documents with classified markings were responsive to the search warrant and were legally taken in the Aug. 8 search, they need these documents to continue their criminal investigation, and the criminal and intelligence assessments cannot be cleanly separated from one another.
Do you dispute what they’ve actually said? If you think I missed something that implies what you inferred, quote it, and let’s clear it up.
“DOJ also apparently takes the view that documents with classified markings could never benefit from either of the privileges at issue here. I also doubt that that is true.”
Why don’t you respond to what they’ve actually said, such as “Plaintiff does not … advance any plausible claims of attorney-client privilege as to such records that would bar the government from reviewing or using them,” and “although this Court suggested that Plaintiff might be able to assert executive privilege as to some of the seized records, Supreme Court precedent makes clear that any possible assertion of privilege that Plaintiff might attempt to make over the classified records would be overcome by the government’s “demonstrated, specific need” for that evidence. United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683, 713 (1974)”?
You seem to be ignoring what they’ve actually asked for: to be allowed to use the documents in their ongoing investigation, while other issues are resolved in court.
DOJ wants to use only the documents marked classified in their criminal investigation without prior special master review. So there is something special about the documents marked classified making them different from the other documents. They must think they are inherently relevant to the national defence (despite the fact that the security review has yet to be completed) and incapable of being privileged, making special master review a useless exercise. Otherwise there is no basis for treating them differently.
Daniel,
You seem to be ignoring that they’ve already read these documents in their entirety. That occurred before the injunction on their use in a criminal investigation.
You assume “They must think they are inherently relevant to the national defence,” but it makes a whole lot more sense to conclude that they believe these are NDI because they read them and found them to be NDI, not because of something inherent in the markings.
“the security review has yet to be completed”
Yes, as they noted, “The court’s injunction restricts the FBI—which has lead responsibility for investigating such matters in the United States—from using the seized records in its criminal-investigative tools to assess which if any records were in fact disclosed, to whom, and in what circumstances. For example, the court’s injunction bars the government from ‘using the content of the documents to conduct witness interviews.’ A9. The injunction also appears to bar the FBI and DOJ from further reviewing the records to discern any patterns in the types of records that were retained, which could lead to identification of other records still missing. See A42 (describing recovery of “empty folders with ‘classified’ banners”). And the injunction would prohibit the government from using any aspect of the seized records’ contents to support the use of compulsory process to locate any additional records.”
But in no way does the fact that that review has been interrupted prevent them from concluding that these 100+ documents are NDI on the basis of their contents. Again, they’ve read all of them in their entirety.
As for them being “incapable of being privileged,” again, they’ve read them, yes, they addressed that on p. 6: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22418133-trumpdojstaymotca11091622
be allowed to use the documents in their ongoing investigation, while other issues are resolved in court.
The DoJ know exactly what the documents contain. They have all they need to advance their ‘investigation’. Judge Cannon knows this. Judge Cannon knows all the DoJ is doing is keeping Russia Collusion Hoax proof out of the public sphere. An endless investigation prevents ANY entity from using the documents. Judge Cannon is tired of the DoJ lying to the Court.
What part of Cannon’s order about this do you not understand? They’ve been stayed from USING the documents in their criminal investigation.
Keep repeating the same nonsense.
Once a document is declassified – it is everything short of public knowledge.
Anyone within government can make a photocopy and take it home.
give it to the press. Private actors can request it via FOIA claims.
Once something has been declassified it is no longer national security or national defense information – in the event that it ever was.
In 1787 the constitutional convention determined that national security was the domain of the executive.
It also determined that All executive power was vested in the president.
Declassifying something totally completely and forever ends the debate as to whether it is relevant to nations security.
That decisions has always been the presidents, and those who he delegates the authority to declassify.
Even congress can not constrain the presidents power to decide what is and is not national security information.
This is not a republican position.
It is not a pro trump position.
It is the constitution, and the law of the land and it has been this way for 250+ years.
This is not a close call. This is not a grey area.
To the extent there is an issue at all, it is because those on the left will pretend that nothing about the constitution is certain, known or established when that suits their objectives.
If you do not like this – change the constitution.
There are several legal issues that are outstanding here.
The Presidents power to declassify is not one of those.
The fact that once declassified there can be no violation of the espionage act is not one of those.
It is frankly absurd to claim otherwise.
The claim that something that has been declassified can still violate the espionage act leaves those in government obligated to handle every single document as if it was top secret core word only, or risk criminal prosecution.
Any judge that finds that declassified material violates the espionage act should be impeached disbarred and tarred and feathered.
This argument is just stupid.
Those on the left care nothing about the constitution.
They care nothing about logic
They care nothing about reality.
And they do not give as schiff if their bizarre legal theories can not possibly work.
Trump nor his lawyers have proved in court that he declassified these documents. Just saying he did is not proof. Trump and his lawyers will have to produce concrete evidence that he declassified these documents. If that’s their rationale Biden could say those documents are indeed classified retroactively. No?
Biden could in theory make Trump a criminal just by declaring those documents classified.
There’s a CNN video online of Trump stating while he was President on the WH lawn to reporters that he “declassified everything.” Done deal.
We’ll wait for you to link to the CNN video you’re talking about. Let’s see what he actually said and what the date is.
Just saying he did is not proof.
You may not like it. But no one has the power to dispute the assertion of the President.
Hahaha!
The Former President lies a lot and anyone who wants to can dispute something he says.
Just as you can dispute Judge Cannons ruling, it fails to signify anything.
My point has always been, There is no office or official has the constitutional power to overturn the Presidents decision on Classified/sensitive information.
Yes, Obama was the Greatest Liar ever to be President. When do we get to raid his warehouse??
It’s NARA’s warehouse. Unlike Trump, Obama obeyed the PRA.
You deceive yourself more than you deceive others.
Yet ATS, the only way you produce the supposedly significant lies is by linking. The last few links were the same and talked about Trump playing golf. Are you that stupid?
We wait for you to “dispute something he says.” So far, on the important issues, you have been wrong on virtually all.
“Trump nor his lawyers have proved in court that he declassified these documents.”
Trump is not required to.
The burden of proof is on the prosecution in criminal cases.
“Just saying he did is not proof.”
Correct, but it is evidence.
“Trump and his lawyers will have to produce concrete evidence that he declassified these documents.”
They may produce additional evidence, but they do not have too. Depending on the documents Trump’s word is likely all that is required. Do you have someone who can testify he did not declassify them ?
You do not, because you can’t.
“If that’s their rationale Biden could say those documents are indeed classified retroactively. No?”
That is squishy. It is uncertain that anyone can reclassify a declassified document.
It is certain they can not after it has been made public. In fact a classified document that has been made public is no longer classified FOREVER.
“Biden could in theory make Trump a criminal just by declaring those documents classified.”
That is absolutely incorrect and only a left wing nut could buy that.
The actions of a third party can not make someone else a criminal.
Biden can maybe reclassify the documents – if they have not been made public.
He can revoke Trump’s security clearances – he would also have to do that.
But until Trump is told both of those he can not commit a crime.
And even after he is told he would still have to ACT.
He can not just passively sit there doing nothing and comit a crime.
Only a left wing nut would try to propose a way that a president or prosecutor could turn someone into a criminal without that person having to ACT to commit a crime.
That is about as soviet as you can get.
Are you channeling you inner Mao ?
Or just your inner fascist ?
The only word Trump is likely to say in court is “I invoke my 5th Amendment right to remain silent.”
Whether you like it or not, it is pretty clear to most of the country that Trump is running for president in 2024.
He is holding rallies all over the place already.
There is zero chance in the world he takes the 5th. If he does he can not get elected.
Your impression of the governments cases is overblown. But that is typical of left wing nuts.
You think of the law as a political weapon – just as Mao and Stalin did.
That is self evident – not merely by the arguments of those on the left here, but by those of legal scholars from the left, and by the conduct of DOJ/FBI.
None of us KNOW what this is all about. But Trump at the very least knows what he did and did not do. YOU do not. DOJ does NOT. Conversely Neither you nor I KNOW what DOJ/FBI/WH/NARA Know or are up to. But THEY do.
BTW we have seen all this before with the collusion Delusion.
While we do not KNOW – it is possible to Guess. It is near certain that any “sources close to the investigation” “leaks” are false. If they were true, they would be Crimes. We saw the same with the Colluson Delusion. Pretty much all the leaks that were purportedly from FBI/DOJ/SC were FALSE. It is possible that leaks from the GJ are true – Those too would be crimes, But DOJ is not prosecuting GJ members.
My “Guess” would be that either this is an effort to keep the Trump declassified Collusion Delusion documents from becoming public – in which case you can expect a holy war between Republicnas in Congress come January much as you eventually saw over the Collusion Delusion where DOJ/FBI/WH stonewalls claiming executive privildge, on going investigation, national security – pretty much any lie they can make up to thwart any investigation for as long as possible.
The other alternative is this is more Democrats stupid theories about J6 trying to criminalize Politics. The FBI seizeures of enormous numbers of republicans, as well as the J6 commitee idiotic fake criminal referals suggests that.
That too will face the same investigations in January and the same stone walling.
The former is a coverup of the misconduct of DOJ/FBI/SC/WH under Obama and continuing through Trump regardin the Collusion Delusion.
The latter is an effort to criminalize politics. That too will explode in Democrats faces.
If you wish to offer some other theory regarding what DOJ/FBI are actually investigating – go for it.
But the Classified Documents nonsense is a dead end, as is the NARA confiscating presidential records.
It is easily possible for DOJ to lose at every turn. To have SCOTUS determine that Trump has executive priviledge and that Trump owns presidential records and that DOJ can not get at anything. I do not think that is likely – But DOJ has created close to the worst possible test case for it. The more likely case is for SCOTUS to decide that DOJ can ACCESS what it wants, but that it was required to go to court to do so. What you will NOT get from SCOTUS is a decision that allows a criminal prosecution based on what we currently know. Legal disputes over priviledge or whether something is classified can not result in criminal charges. Those of you on the left have never gotten this.
This was one part of the Barr Memo regarding the Mueller Report. Government can not manufacture a crime from the full throated legal resistance of the subject or target of its investigations. People targeted by Govenrment need not roll over or be guilty of additional crimes. They can assert their rights vigorously every step of the way. They can even be legally WRONG about those rights so longs as they push those incorrect legal claims through the courts.
It is not EVER a criminal defendants obligation to prove their innocence. It is ALWAYS the prosecutions job to prove their guilt, and even guilty defendants can take every single legal step allowed to claim their innocence and force the prosecution to prove its case. The anger of govenrment or democrats at being resisted is not a crime,. It is the legitimate excercise of criminal and civil rights.
Regardless, Trump is not behaving like a guilty defendant. He is behaving like someone who is happy that DOJ/FBI have been stupid enough to thrust him full throated onto the public stage and into the public eye again.
And Democrats have been stupid enough to do that. Had you left Trump alone – DeSantis was the most likely GOP candidate in 2024 – especially as he takes advantage of the political theater of sending illegal immigrants to Democrat Sanctuary Cities.
John, I probably should have posted this link when it first came out. I’ve been pondering everything it says since such suspicions rose immediately.
“The story of the Mar-a-Lago raid begins at the end of Trump’s presidency, when he declassified documents related to Russiagate.”
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/fbi-raid-mar-a-lago-trump-russiagate-lee-smith?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Alot of what is in here is speculation. But I think the odds are that it is correct.
One of Trump’s traits that irritates the left so much is that he provokes them into acting Stupid.
I suspect your author is correct, that Biden will ultimately force this to go forward.
That is likely to prove short run advantageous to the left, but long run Dangerous.
Though Honestly Garland has surprised me. He had the oportunity to come in as AG and do a stellar job and leave people wondering why he was not confirmed to SCOTUS. but from the start he has allowed himself to be used politically and he is destroying his reputation.
As an aside I am often surprised at what ranking people in administrations do NOT know that is within there perview.
Barr has been speaking more recently. Much of what he says is excellent. In some instances he appears to know things I did not. But frequently he makes remarks where there is a strong public record that discredits what he says.
.”Garland has surprised me. He had the oportunity to come in as AG and do a stellar job and leave people wondering why he was not confirmed to SCOTUS. “
John, I look at it differently. He had no reputation. He was a hack who never was put in a position forcing him to show his true colors. That is what DeSantis did to the Martha’s Vineyard reputation and why the crazies liken the MV event to Nazism. They are striking out but don’t know how because they know their hypocrisy is exposed.
Listen to Dennis’s diatribe. One can take note he is flailing. We can only hope he doesn’t cause himself a severe head injury.
Is Trump behaving like a guilty defendant ? Or like someone who is happy that Biden has been stupid enough to put the spotlight back on him ?
Those of you on the left can’t even tell when you are losing.
What should be disturbing and weigh heavily against DOJ is that many of the claims here have never been litigated.
Government access to the records of prior presidents has been litigated.
As a rule the current administration can go to court to obtain access to prior administration records.
They must provide a reason – a rational basis for doing so. But the courts are likely to rubber stamp almost anything.
But access is NOT ownership, nor possession.
To my knowledge the closest case regarding ownership is the JW case where ABJ said NARA could not be ordered to retrieve documents from a former president. Much of that case says or suggests that presidents get to decide as they leave what is a wh record and what is a personal record.
I have not heard of a single case in which NARA tried to take a document from a former president.
Again the absence of that weighs against the DOJ.
I would again note that Acess is not the same as posession. A century ago, it would be reasonable to beleive that most wh documents were originals. Not today.
All the cases granting Government access to prior presidents documents are just that – grants to access, not take ownership and possession of. If DOJ beleives that it needs information from a prior administrations records to prosecute a crime, ultimately DOJ is likely to get that access. But that is still not exclusive posession and ownership.
It is highly unlikely there is a single document in this debate that either NARA or the current admin do not have access to.
You debate whether classified documents are federal records, or wh records or personal records.
They can be all 3, or combinations. It is highly unlikely that there is any document that only one copy of exists and Trump has it. Anything found at MAL has copies that either NARA or the current government has.
NARA with near certainty has every single computer in the WH at the time Trump left office as well as their contents.
The claim that Trump had absconded with something that NARA is obligated to keep is ludicrous.
Even if Trump had originals NARA’s claim to ownership is weak – both by ABJ’s decision, and because ultimately all of this goes tot he presidential library – which is PRIVATE, NARA is a custodian. Not an owner. They actually remain custodian after the library is completed. But STILL not an owner.
But the fact that all of this is likely copies makes it weaker.
NARA has not set out to take ownership of the privately held copies of the declaration of independence.
NARA is tasked with having a record of evertyhgn government has done, NOT with having every copy of every record government has ever created.
Classified documents are only a little different. As with unclassified documents – there is not ONE and only ONE copy.
That means that DOJ can not claim Government is being deprived of these records.
They with certainty have copies of ever document Trump has classified or not.
The ISSUE is whether there is some risk here.
Ex-presidents are authorized by Obama’s EO, so the only question is whether they were kept securely.
DOJ making a case that anywhere in the private residence at MAL was insecure is a stretch.
MAL is a gated community. The Trump residence is further isolated, and guarded by secret service.
And the risk must be real. Just walking in and out of the Trump office escorted is not going to rise to a crime.
Petreaus has top secret documents at home without authorization and he shared them with a lover/biographer who used the information to commit crimes. And Petreaus got a slap on the wrist.
I highly doubt that Judge Cannon or the special master are going to issue a final ruling on whether marked documents are classified. They are going to presume it for now, and kick that to hearings on issues of FACT.
There is a small chance that if these documents are something that Trump OBVIOUSLY and publicly ordered declassified, that Cannon or the SM will rule so, but probably not.
“If Dearie were to act quickly, it could moot the appeal”
Yesterday, appointed Special Master Raymond J Dearie scheduled a hearing between former President Trump’s legal team and lawyers from DOJ at Brooklyn federal courthouse on 9/20/22 at 2 pm (Tuesday) Further, he requested the lawyers submit proposed agenda items for the meeting by the close of business on 9/19/22 (Monday).
(OT)
Larry Klayman, founder of the conservative Judicial Watch and Freedom Watch groups, has had his DC law license suspended “for 18 months over his handling of a sexual harassment lawsuit initially filed more than a decade ago. … The D.C. appellate court found that Klayman developed and expressed romantic feelings toward Sataki [the plaintiff in the case], creating a conflict of interest that adversely affected the representation.”
https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/judicial-watch-founder-larry-klayman-suspended-legal-practice-dc-2022-09-16/
“The D.C. appellate court found that Klayman developed and expressed romantic feelings toward Sataki [the plaintiff in the case], creating a conflict of interest that adversely affected the representation.”
I guess he did not understand that you must stop at sniffing their hair, unwanted hugs, and grabbing their breast and but.
Oops, sorry got that wrong. Republicans can not do that, only democrats.
More lawfare against conservatives.
See Speaker Tom Delay, and Senator Stevens for reference.
What good is a stay at this point?
Unless the DOJ is that afraid.
It enables them to continue their criminal investigation of those 100+ docs immediately. A stay absolutely serves a purpose.
The rule for justice is that it proceeds slowly.
The documents are safe – not that they ever were a danger.
DOJ can cool their heals.
The right to a speedy trial belongs to the defendant – not the prosecutor.
Each step seems to point more and more to the probability that DOJ is not trying to Thwart a crime committed by Trump, But to prevent anyone from ever knowing anything about these documents.
Why is that so important ? The most probable explanation is these are collusion delusion documents.
You are correct about what is and is not a leak. You are still incorrect about the timeline.
DOJ has escalated every step of the way. Trump has not “leaked” anything.
Leaks are illegal.
Private citizens telling others that the FBI is ruffling through their wives intimates is not leaking.
Giving Solomon NARA’s letter is not leaking.
The nonsense about nuclear documents is leaking.
The Claim that the WH was uninvolved is a LIE.
Pretty much everything you get from a “leak” is a lie – the alternative is it is a crime.
Every single thing Trump has done has been in response to one or more actions or leaks by the FBI/DOJ/NARA/WH.
From the start this admin has sought to escalate.
I am sure that Trump is overall happy they have. You do not seem to grasp that.
The DOJ/FBI/WH targeting Trump was a huge political mistake.
We keep hearing left wing nut lawyers claim the fact and law is on their side – yet just as it pretty much never has been for the pats 12 years – it is not now.
Trump needs to win only a single point of law to win everything – that DOJ/FBI/NARA had to go to court to obtain access to these documents. That is it. There is near zero chance the courts are going to say – nope, DOJ/NARA/FBI get to decide Executive priviledge or ownership or rights to possess, unilaterally on their own in what THEY are making out as a criminal case. The courts can decide 100% that DOJ gets everything they want – and this still goes down in flames. An actual victory for DOJ requires a court decision that judicial review was not necescary.
Excellent points. I hope Trump turns the knife slowly.
The eventual outcome of this is going to hinge on facts that We do not know, but that Trump, DOJ/FBI do.
Just as it did on the collusion delusion.
As we now learn – DOJ/FBI/SC knew from October 2016 that the Steele Dossier and the Alpha Bank claim were Hoaxes. But it took another 2+ years for the rest of us to learn SOME of that and another 5 years to learn all of that.
It is highly likely that Trump/DOJ/FBI/NARA/WH all know what these documents are and whether they are actually classified and whether there was ever an issue.
But WE do not, and probably will not again for years. Trump is going to be telling us that DOJ/… are full of Schiff,
And DOJ/.. are going to be telling us Trump is a danger to national security.
It does not take much to know that DOJ is likely wrong. But if as appears likely Trump is right and these documents are declassified – we will not hear that for years – if ever.
Jonathan: It was a master stroke by the DOJ to agree to a Special Master–and even the one recommended by Trump’s lawyers. Probably caught you by surprise. Liz Dye has a great piece in Above the Law (9/16/22) which pretty much demolishes all of Judge Cannon’s tortured reasoning in acting as Trump’s political hack. Bizarrely, you have endorsed Trump’s and Cannon’s “executive privilege” claims. As the DOJ and most legal experts have pointed out Trump has no “possessory interest” in that material. It belongs to the government, not a former president.
That said let’s move on this Saturday to more important and pressing issues. It’s called the “migrant dump”. It’s not the kind human traffickers engage in when they “dump” migrants in the Arizona desert. No, this is the “migrant dump” GOP governors are using to make a political point about immigration to try to use it as a wedge issue in the fall and 2024 elections. In the dead of night Texas Gov. Abbott sent 500 migrants in buses and literally “dumped” them in Chicago. He didn’t bother to notify Chicago or state officials. Illinois Gov. Pritzher said: “They won’t tell us how many infants, children, seniors or families are on board.. They won’t tell us what route they’ll take or when they will arrive. They won’t provide any information that would actually help their fellow Americans welcome and care for these human beings”. Not to be outdone FL Gov. DeSantis flew about 50 Venezuelan migrants and “dumped” them in Martha’s Vineyard. The migrants were greeted with applause, medical teams, food, temporary housing and other services–including iPads so the migrants could make video calls into virtual court hearings. Unlike Abbott and DeSantis this is how caring Americans take care and protect other human beings. What is really despicable about these “migrant dumps” is that the migrants were lured onto busses and planes with promises their immigration would be expedited and they would have jobs at their destinations. It was a big fat lie!
DeSantis is using $12 million in state money for his migrant “relocation program” –an attempt use migrants as a pawn in his bid to run for president in 2024. The large Jewish population in FL is already mad at the governor over the abortion ban. The Gov’s “relocation program’ will remind Jews of a similar program under the Nazis when Jews were lured onto trains with promises of food, housing and work at their ultimate destinations. The Jewish community in FL has a long historical memory and might be something they think about when they vote this fall and in 2024.
The migrants involved are coming from Venezuela , Haiti, Afghanistan and other countries racked by political and drug violence. They are not the “rapists”, “drug dealers” and “criminals” as Trump and his MAGA supports have claimed. It’s kind of ironic that QAnon supporters have accused the Dems of engaging in “human trafficking”. GOP governors are now doing it in spades!
There has been a sharp backlash against the antics of Abbott and DeSantis. California Gov. Newsom has asked AG Garland to open a criminal and civil investigation of the “migrant dumps”. Other immigration rights groups are also calling for legal action against these “migrant dumps” as violating international humanitarian and US immigration laws. This is an issue you should be interested in–but I’m not holding my breath you will address it anytime soon.
.No, this is the “migrant dump” GOP governors are using to make a political point about immigration to try to use it as a wedge issue in the fall and 2024 elections. In the dead of night Texas Gov. Abbott sent 500 migrants in buses and literally “dumped” them in Chicago.”
Yet, Dennis, you have no comment on Biden filling up planes with illegal aliens and flying them in the middle of the night to cities all over America. You have no comment when it comes to Biden permitting thieves and murderers into our country. You have no comment when drugs are smuggled into our country killing Americans.
What type of hypocrisy are you demonstrating?
You state things as facts when you don’t know if those things are true or not. Most are false.
What about the towns at the border overrun with illegals? They do not have the financial ability to care for their own much less huge numbers of illegals.
You seem to think that it is fair to American citizens who are being tremendously hurt and have no resources. Yet Martha’s Vineyard is said to have the most number of available beds in one area of the country. Don’t you think you are being hypocritical? By the way, Martha’s Vineyard with all those beds and available resources immediately sent the immigrants packing. Shouldn’t all cities do the same? Yes, unless you are a hypocrite.
You compare what DeSantis did to what the Nazis did. Are you crazy? DeSantis gave the illegals a tour of Martha’s Vinyard. I have never been there so I would appreciate such a tour as well. Yet you think my relatives suffering and killed in the concentration camps created by the Nazis are the same? That tells us what your opinion of anything is worth. Nothing, and I say that politely because I believe you have the ability to think before you write.
S. Meyer: You wanted to talk about immigration so here we are. You say Biden is “permitting thieves and murderers into the country”. Please ID any of the 500 migrants bused to Chicago or the 50 flown to Martha’s Vineyard that fit these categories. Do you think Abbott or DeSantis would allow a thief or murderer to get on a bus or plane? They would be charged and prosecuted. Your claim is non-sensical! You have drunk too much of the Trump lemonade!
And you bizarrely claim “DeSantis gave the illegals [!!] a tour of Martha’s Vineyard”. Sure, DeSantis provided the migrants with a typical tourist visit to Aquinnah Cliffs, the lighthouse and the Menemsha Public beach. You are the “crazy” one if you actually believe that! As to the comparison of DeSantis’ antic to what the Nazis did to the Jews in Germany it was not a direct comparison. But this morning I talked with a Jewish friend who has relatives in Miami. Their immediate reaction was angst–a reminder of the Nazi’s “relocation program”. I’m not making this stuff up.
As a history buff I can tell you there are ominous parallels between what happened in Germany in the 1930s and what is happening here. The polarization of views, the resort to violence, the attacks on migrants and the emergence of an authoritarian figure. The Nazi’s attacked not just the Jews but anyone considered non-Aryan. You obviously have not been paying attention to the attacks on Jews here–the killing of Jewish worshippers in Pittsburgh and the desecration of Jewish cemeteries. Were you asleep when the neo-Nazis in Charlottesville or Florida marched–chanting “The Jews will not replace us!”? When your ancestors arrived in the US were they shipped off to other parts of the country like the recent migrants? Your family probably sought and found refuge here from violence in Russia or where ever. They weren’t pawns in some political game. So why should we treat recent migrants here any differently? They should be treated humanely and accorded the rights to anyone seeking asylum. I don’t understand your lack of any humanity.
Frankly, I think we should confine our discussions to the art of Mexico. I won’t further comment on your bizarre political views!
You need a psychologist and a psychiatrist, stat.
I think DeSantis move is brilliant.
There is nothing you can say that does not make you look like a hypocrite.
If DeSantis sent Rapists and murders to Martha’s vineyard – Why was he obligated to keep them in FL ?
If he did not – then atleast he vetted them first – unlike Biden who has admitted that those transported secretly accross country are not covid tested much less vetted.
Keep up the good work !!
Keep pushing this story.
It just exposes you as a bigot and a fool.
And the rest of us are having so much Fun!
There is absolutely nothing that DeSantis and Abbott have done here that Biden has not done.
The president has more authority than the govenor – over people crossing Federal borders.
But the Govenor of a state has more authority regarding those in the state.
To the extent that illegal immigrants have rights – and they have many but not all of the same rights as citizens
They have the same rights with respect to Biden as Desantis.
If Biden can put them on a plane to somewhere else, Desantis can.
Just to be clear – Either DeSantis or Abbott could put a murderer or Rapist on a bus or plane to elsewhere.
That is not a crime.
It is no different when Biden does the same.
Every immigrant group in US history has been pawns in political games.
Are you aware of US history ? Do you have the slightest knowledge of things like the Chinese laws ?
Regardless, Biden made them pawns when he allowed 5 times as many to cross in the past 2 years as during Trump’s 4 years.
Jews are the most significant target of hate crimes in the US.
Most by blacks or leftists.
.”As to the comparison of DeSantis’ antic to what the Nazis did to the Jews in Germany “
What a fool you are Dennis equating DeSantis to the Nazis. DeSantis flew 50 illegals to Martha’s Vineyard which is what Biden has been doing to hundreds of thousands.
The Nazis tortured their victims. They filleted the skin off of people and poured salt water on them. They inserted glass tubes into the penis of men and then broke them into small pieces of glass. They put hands and feet into boiling water until the skin and nails fell off. They would put a child’s head into a vice and then tighten it so the mother could watch the brains pop out of the child’s head.
They exterminated six-plus million Jews, half the population, and many others. They improved efficiency by crowding people so tightly in the gas chamber that their legs and arms didn’t get tangled. It made for easier removal of those thay murdered.
What type of fool are you Dennis to make such a comparison?
“When your ancestors arrived in the US were they shipped off to other parts of the country like the recent migrants?”
Dennis, you prove yourself even more of a fool.
To the best of my knowledge, most of my relatives never made it into the US. For a history buff, you seem to know very little. Did you not know about our immigration laws and quotas? Those laws still exist, but Biden is not following the law. Jews were turned away and sent back to Germany to be slaughtered. Read about this. https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939
My wife is Jewish and a refugee. Her mother was in Auschwitz, and her father was in another camp. He was comatose when the allies came to the camp and would have died a few hours later but for the immediate attention given when the allies arrived. My wife and her parents, despite the fact she brought secret documents in microfilm braided in her hair across a mined border to the west, got out too late and was denied admission to the US. She slept in a tent in an internment camp in the freezing cold. Well after six months, a special visa got her and her family in. Things moved slower at that time.
Do you think Jews and others got into the US illegally by simply crossing the border? You are a fool. Have you never heard of Ellis Island? The quotas permitted only some to come here, but when the immigrants arrived, they were taken to Ellis Island. Those deemed not fit, including the sick, criminals, etc. were not permitted into the US.
Once here, my wife and her parents received virtually nothing. There were no food stamps. There was no healthcare. There were no special benefits. Her parents immediately got jobs working more than the usual 40-hour week.
Dennis, you are very foolish to tread into things you know nothing about.
Dennis writes: “But this morning I talked with a Jewish friend who has relatives in Miami. Their immediate reaction was angst–a reminder of the Nazi’s “relocation program”. I’m not making this stuff up.”
Then your friends aren’t any smarter than you when it comes to history or the Holocaust. Maybe they need to learn more about relocation programs that occur all over the world. Earlier you talked about India. You probably know nothing of the millions that moved from one boundary to another when Pakistan was created.
Though you might not know it the German program was not to relocate Jews, it was to exterminate them. Let your friends in Miami know that since it appears they need to become a bit more educated.
Stop making a fool of yourself.
“Do you think Abbott or DeSantis would allow a thief or murderer to get on a bus or plane? They would be charged and prosecuted. “
Dennis, if that is your claim, then start prosecuting Biden for he has had many put on a plane or a bus. We should be prosecuting the elected officials of sanctuary cities that let criminals, including murderers and racists, out jail.
How come you don’t know these things, Dennis?
“As a history buff “
Dennis, as a history buff, I am waiting for you to apologize to those who suffered deeply from the Nazis, while you equate their suffering with a trip to Martha’s Vineyard.
You cite all this purported legal expertise – yet the FACT is that existing Caselaw is either unclear or against you.
Often the cases that the left cites which MIGHT produce a favorable OUTCOME, do not reach that outcome based on the legal reasoning the left or your legal experts offer.
Whether you like it or not, it is not clear whose property this is, and most if not all decisions have favored Ex-Presidents.
The Current govenrment has nearly always won against the ex-president in gaining ACCESS to ex-presidents documents. But none of these decisions have said the government “owns” the material.
Universally they have said the governments need – as specified by the lawsuit in question, allows them to override the ex-presidents interests.
Past executive priviledge is less adjudicated – party because the current president has either never or nearly never waived priviledge for an ex-president.
All the issues you claim are a slam dunk – not only Aren’t but lean heavily AGAINST you.
Trump can lose nearly every single case, and still overwhelmingly win. Depending on the basis of the decisions.
The courts are near certain to give NARA/DOJ/FBI access to most of these documents.
But Access is not the same as ownership.
So long as Trump had a legitimate right to possess these documents – there is no possibility of a crime.
So long as Trump has a legitimate claim of executive priviledge – even a claim that the courts decide is NOT strong enough to preclude NARA/DOJ/FBI access – Trump still wins – meaning there is no possible criminal case.
Few of those on the left seem to have a clue, you seem to think we are dealing with a binary.
DOJ must prove these documents are stolen and that Trump’s possession is not authorized.
That is not a burden they can meet based on current law.
NOT that courts can require Trump to turn them over to the government.
Apparently my iPad browser does not support the upvote function here. Consider all of your posts on this page upvoted.
I’m still shocked people are quibbling about Executive Privilege, which is completely overshadowed by every POTUS’ power over national secrets as most recently reiterated by SCOTUS in Navy vs Egan. Just as Congress cannot pass a “law” making it illegal for SCOTUS to overturn their laws as unconstitutional (due to separation of powers), so too no law whatsoever passed by Congress can limit, control, or criminalize the choices POTUS makes regarding the handling of national secrets. Since this power comes direct from the Constitution in his role as Commander in Chief, it leads me to believe the legal razors edge they are trying to claim as “national security” being somehow distinct from “national secrets,” I presume SCOTUS will ultimately laugh their whole approach out of court – leaving Garland, Reinhart, and the FBI agents all as criminal conspirators regarding an unconstitutional warrant.
The executive priviledge issue is more complex – and may be a case of first impression.
I am not aware of an instance in my lifetime where a current president did not defend claims of executive priviledge for an ex-president. Even Trump defended executive priviledge claims of Obama related to matters where he was at odds with Obama.
There are very few cases involving executive privilege assertions of an ex-president against a current president.
There are few instances were a president has waived privilege for an ex-president.
My Guess is that the courts are going to decide that Trump has valid claims of executive privilege – that the existing administration (and Congress) can not just steam roll over claims of executive priviledge of the prior administration.
And the courts will either preclude or limit current presidents from waiving priviledge of ex-presidents.
They will require congress or the current administration to go to court to challenge claims of executive privildge – even by ex-presidents. That said they will set a standard for granting access that congress and the current administration will be able to drive a truck through.
Esentially, on several issues the court will decided Biden/NARA/DOJ were required to go to court and did not, and that is error on their part. But that had they gone to court, the courts would have given them what they wanted.
While this appears to be a loss for Trump, it is actually a win. The Fact that the administration did not follow the rules, means there is no way to claim a crime on Trump’s part.
In otherwords the courts will decide that Trump had the absolute right to say no to DOJ/FBI/NARA/…
Until a court told him otherwise. But that when DOJ/NARA/… went to court the answer would be yes – you can have access.
The last issue is the distinction between access and ownership. There are 3 possibilities.
Trump owns his presidential records,
NARA owns them
The Govenrment owns them.
I would note that 2 & 3 appear to be different – but they are not, and that is why it is probable the court will decide Trump owns them.
The PRA can not give NARA ownership while Trump is still president.
And if it gives NARA ownership afterwards it has given Biden ownership which runs afoul of many court decisions and the PRA itself.
The PRA specifies that documents will ultimately go to the ex-presidents library. Which will own them.
If NARA owns them Biden owns them and presidents could completely thwart ex-presidents libraries.
Which is not what PRA sought.
Regardless, many of the above issues are not with certainty decided.
“ DOJ must prove these documents are stolen and that Trump’s possession is not authorized.
That is not a burden they can meet based on current law.”
The law is very clear about why Trump is illegally in possession of those documents the PRA is quite explicit. That is current law. The classified documents which trump has not declared declassified in court or claimed the reasoning for keeping them.
There is no dispute over who owns these documents and it’s certainly not Trump. The DOJ has not proven Trump stole these documents yet because the judge incorrectly issued an injunction contesting the privilege issue when Trump’s own lawyers have not done so. The judge is adding claims that Trump’s lawyers are not. She’s clearly being biased. She never used the statutes to justify her rulings which would undermine her reasoning in the first place.
why Trump is illegally in possession of those documents the PRA is quite explicit
The President comes into the room with records on the Table, the Archivists says these are all PRA documents. The President picks through them and takes about half of them, and says they are his personal records.
Who has the power to over rule the President?
Trump is not President.
Did you just figure that out? He was when the documents ended up at MAL If the documents ended up at your house you would be in jail. That is the difference.
Svelaz, you are clueless.
Not only doesn’t the PRA say what you claim – numerous court cases also defy that.
Further if the PRA said what you claim – it would be unconstitutional.
Lets Reiterated
Article II Section 1.
All executive powers are vested in the president.
Classified documents, the decision as to what is personal and what is a wh records, what is national security material.
These and numerous other issues in this case are all choices of the president that Congress can not delegate away from him. I cited the text of the constitution. But more importantly this is not a long ignored close such as the unfortunately defunct contracts clause. This is a much litigated section of the constitution which the President has ALWAYS won.
Next, Defendants in the US are NOT required to assert all their legal defenses on day one.
Trump is free to argue publicly or in court that these documents are not declassified. He is free to do either at the begining, the middle or the end. At the very worst, he MIGHT be prohibited from waiting until after losing at trial to raise that claim on appeal.
I know you think otherwise, But Trump has good lawyers and is NOT going to raise claims he does not need to NOW.
Further the burden of proof is on DOJ. It is to Trump’s advantage to hold the legal claim that the documents are not classified until much later. If Trump makes that claim now and loses, DOJ’s job is much easier. so long as the claim is not adjudicated DOJ is at risk. Finally while Trump’s authority to declassify is a question of law. Whether he declassified or not is a question of fact. In a motion to dismiss as an example the courts Have to decide against Trump – because it is a question of fact and Trump is the moving party. But in motions by DOJ the documents have to be assumed declassified.
“There is no dispute over who owns these documents and it’s certainly not Trump.”
Of course there is an contra your claims the caselaw favors Trump.
There is a big difference between ownership which favors Trump and Access which favors DOJ But likely requires DOJ to go to court.
“The DOJ has not proven Trump stole these documents yet because the judge incorrectly issued an injunction contesting the privilege issue when Trump’s own lawyers have not done so.”
DOJ has not even claimed Trump stole the documents, nor are they likely to.
You do not seem to grasp the difference between claims that Trump is not allowed to have them, and Trump stole them. If Trump is legally allowed to have them – which so FAR DOJ has not challenged. There is no crime here.
Retreiving documents that the current administration wants, is not the same as recovering stolen property.
“The judge is adding claims that Trump’s lawyers are not.” So say you.
“She’s clearly being biased.”
Nope. So far she is quite good.
“She never used the statutes to justify her rulings which would undermine her reasoning in the first place.”
Quite the opposite.
I recently enjoyed seeing you on video, Dennis.
https://youtu.be/9PkRg45SLE8
What you call Abbott and DeSantis’s antics are brilliant political moves.
Why exactly is TX and FL obligated to deal with the millions of people flooding our borders because this president refuses to follow the law and his oath of office ?
Why is it OK for the Fed’s to secretly fly illegal immigrants randomly accross country without telling anyone – but not Florida or TX ?
No one asked permission of Texas or Florida before forcing these people into these states ?
Why are the citizen’s of Martha’s vinyard free to control who lives in their community, but those in El Paso are not
Your on the losing side of Stupid.
Thoughout my life I have listened to critiques of republicans that regardless of whether they were right on the issues, Democrats had their act together on messaging.
How quickly that has changed. DeSantis and Abbott are having fun taunting idiotic hypocrits on the left,
And lots of us are enjoying the show.
YOU engaged in all this holier than thou virtue signalling.
YOU rant about the racist bigotted people of TX or FL or other border communities who are watching their lives being trampled by the flood of illegal immigrants.
YOU announced your cities and communities were sanctuaries.
DeSantis and Abbott are holding you to your promise.
And you are failing.
There is no room on Martha’s vinyard with more than 100,000 beds empty for the off season for 50 illegal immigrants ? But there are tens of thousands living under bridges near the border.
Long ago SCOTUS determined that travel within the US is a constitutional right.
In the unlikely even you can find a law that is being broken – that law is unarguably unconstitutional.
These immigrants gave informed consent before being transported. Does DHS get that before flying them to places that do not want them in the middle of the night.
Absolutely this is a tremendously politically beneficial action by DeSantis and Abbott.
It is also legitimately within their powers. These illegal immigrants are a huge cost burden to TX and FL.
If they wish to go elsewhere TX and FL will save money by transporting them anywhere in the US.
The left is constantly telling us all these people are an assett not a liability. Great then YOU take them.
What we are seeing is that those of you on the left are at your core racist and biggotted hypocrits.
The number of racist and biggotted remarks on Twitter and FB and in the media sometimes by the media over this by those on the left have been incredible.
Frankly I think DeSantis and Abbott should play sanctuary city Bingo once a week – on TV.
Put all the names of all the “sanctuary cities” in the US in a bingo wheel, and pull one out each week and send all the illegal immigrants they can find that wish to go there by Bus or plane.
“These immigrants gave informed consent before being transported”
They didn’t.
They were lied to.
Consent based on lies is not informed consent.
Because you say so.
While it is far from established that they were lied to.
That alone would not undo consent.
They knew they were leaving florida.
They were not be sent to Treblinka, They were being sent to Martha’s vinyard.
I doubt they were actually lied to. But whether they had false expectations is not relevant.
There was no harm done to them. Therefore the consent was valid.
They did not lose something they had a right to,
Being lied to prevents INFORMED consent, which is what your original claim (“These immigrants gave informed consent”) AND my response were about.
Your attempt to move the goalposts is noted.
You wrote, “Being lied to prevents INFORMED consent.” Does that apply to the “Informed Consent Liability Waiver” of your new religious cult sacrament, the experimental vaccine?
I’m not religious.
Of course it applies to informed consent for medical treatment. If you think there’s a lie in a medical waiver, you certainly haven’t quoted it. But lots of people have sued for medical malpractice involving a variety of procedures and a failure to get informed consent for them.
You are not religious, and you are not smart. Bringing in medical malpractice wasn’t smart. There is a big difference between consent for a surgical procedure where you do not know what is happening and getting consent to fly to one of America’s most affluent communities where one can see what is happening when they get into the plane.
Of course, Biden sends people to the worst places in the dark of nigh. ATS thinks because Biden is sending them, it is informed consent. What a dunce.
ita
“Being lied to prevents INFORMED consent, which is what your original claim”
Nope.
If I tell you “You can choose to get on a plane to Martha’s Vineyard, and it is raining in chicago”
If it is not raining in chicago – the consent is still informed.
If I tell you “You can choose to get on a plane to Martha’s Vineyard and they are a sancturary city so they will let you stay” and Martha’s vineyard does not let you stay – the consent is still informed.
I would further note that States actually have General police power, so DeSantis can actually say “Get on the F’ing plane”.
As is typical we have left wing nuts trying to make up the law as they go.
I would further note that Florida has absolute immunity, and DeSantis has qualified immunity – so you will get exactly nowhere, no matter what.
I am not attempting to move the goalposts.
The goal posts are yours. You are trying to claim that some crime or maybe some serious civil complaint can be made.
The answer is NO, for lots of reasons.
I have seen no one claiming they were lied to. Only reporting from the media. Also lots of on camera interview with repeated aliens saying they very thankful for being there.
Ah, yes, if you haven’t seen it, then it doesn’t exist. You’re like a 1 year old who hasn’t yet discovered object permanence.
“I simply feel misled because they told a lie and it has come to nothing,” Pedro Luis Torrelaba, 36, said Friday.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/17/desantis-migrants-marthas-vineyard-cape-cod/10410896002/
Then maybe he should go back home. The elite rejected him and sent him to a Concentration camp (AOC’s words, not mine) Where is she?? Why isn’t she crying for them in front of a camera now??
The “elite” don’t stay in MV this time of year. The only people there this time of year are the middle- and working-class who live there year-round. He wasn’t “ejected” by them.
This is all great fun watching left wing nuts drown in their own hypocracy.
NY AG James is trying to prosecute Bannon for Fraud – because he said that 100% of funds donated to a Build the Wall group that he supported would go to building the wall. Turns out it was only 98%. Many charities do not manage 30%, Regardless, Bannon offered to refund donations to anyone who wanted theirs back – no takers.
The Federal case on this died. But left wing nuts are persistant and NY AG James is trying the impossible again.
Meanwhile Martha’s Vinyard puts up a gofundme for these immigrants and exactly zero dollars of what they collect goes to the immigrants or any aspect of caring for them.
Way to Go Martha’s vinyard. Those Brown people were not allowed to dilute your pasty white communities for even 2 days before you shipped them out to a military base.
Alas alas for you
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrites that you be
Searching for souls and fools to forsake them
You travel the land you scour the sea
After you’ve got your converts you make them
Twice as fit for hell!
As you are yourselves!
Alas, alas for you
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrites that you are
Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you
You will not venture half so far
Other men who might enter the gates you
Keep from passing through!
Drag them down with you!
You snakes, you viper’s brood
You cannot escape being Devil’s food!
I send you prophets, I send you preachers
Sages and rages and ages of teachers
Nothing can bar your mood
Alas, alas for you
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrites to a man
Sons of the dogs who murdered the prophets
Finishing off what your fathers began
You don’t have time to scorn and to scoff
It’s getting very late!
Vengeance doesn’t wait!
You snakes, you viper’s brood
You cannot escape being Devil’s food!
I send you prophets, I send you preachers
Sages and rages and ages of teachers
Nothing can bar your mood
Blind guides, blind fools
The blood you spilt
On you will fall!
This nation, this generation
Will bear the guilt of it all!
Alas, alas alas for you! Blind fools!!
Gavin Newsom is a grandstanding demagogue, not an executive. He provided between $10B and $31B of federal Covid funds to criminals, including inmates:
https://abc7news.com/california-edd-unemployment-fraud-ca-scam-insurance/10011810/
Gov. DeSantis is simply trying to serve his state as best as he can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
“The migrants involved are coming from Venezuela , Haiti, Afghanistan and other countries racked by political and drug violence. They are not the “rapists”, “drug dealers” and “criminals” as Trump and his MAGA supports have claimed. It’s kind of ironic that QAnon supporters have accused the Dems of engaging in “human trafficking”. GOP governors are now doing it in spades!”
Then Martha’s Vinyard should be happy to have them.
They were so happy they shipped them elsewhere in less than 48 hours.
It is amazing – you can not get a reporter to come to the sourthern border to report as 8,000 people a day cross illegally into the country – but send 50 brown people to martha’s vinyard – and the entire press core is there.
BTW there were no court hearings, These wonderful brown people were bussed out of the martha’s vinyard sanctuary community as fast as the busses could be commandeered.
And rather than smiles as parties – what we got was hundreds of leftist racists tweets that quickly had to be deleted
“The Gov’s “relocation program’ will remind Jews of a similar program under the Nazis when Jews were lured onto trains with promises of food, housing and work at their ultimate destinations. The Jewish community in FL has a long historical memory and might be something they think about when they vote this fall and in 2024.”
So you think FL Jews will think being offered a free trip to Martha’s vinyard is comparable to being sent to Dachau ?
Do you actually think about any of this before you write it ?
Dennis the only thing better than Abbott and DeSantis’s illegal immigrant relocation programs is YOU foaming rapid poorly thought out response.
I have taken Muslim immigrant families into my home. I have helped them get their feet in this country, get jobs, get apartments get food. I have fed them, and they have fed me. I have welcomed them in my community and home and they have welcomed me in theirs.
Have you ?
Did anyone in Martha’s vineyard ?
FL, TX, DeSantis and Abbott are dealing with 10’s of thousands of illegal immigrants each year.
Are you saying that Martha’s Vineyard, or DC, or Chicago can’t deal with 50 ?
Matthew 25:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
Red States are doing fine. They were not asked, and they have taken these people in – by the millions.
The Blue bubble like Martha’s Vineyard, DC, NYC – have failed.
It is easy to see who the racist hateful hating haters actually are.
Do you beleive what you write ?
So, Biden shipping illegals across the country to communities in the middle of the night without the permission of the receiving communities is fine but somehow when governors do it it is criminal?
I’ll grant you this – it takes a creative mind to be a Democrat.
Trump’s initial objection about executive privilege is likely a trap. Navy vs Egan clearly resolved that POTUS cannot have his uses of national secrets (nuclear or otherwise) limited, controlled, or criminalized by Congress. Through the separation of powers, he is as immune to such interference as SCOTUS is immune to Congress passing a law declaring SCOTUS could no longer overturn their laws as unconstitutional. They simply have no such power, and so any such laws passed by Congress, though they apply to everyone else, cannot apply to SCOTUS. The distinction between “national secrets” and “national security” – the head of which pin they are trying to dance on top of – will surely be laughed out of court by SCOTUS – leaving the entire play left defending charges of criminal conspiracy to violate Trump’s rights AGAIN. That’s not even mentioning the violation of the 4th Amendment protection against “broad warrants.”
Why do progressives hate brown people. MV is a Sanctuary city. That is where illegals are supposed to go. Otherwise, they are lying and hate brown people but just want to pretend to care.
“What we are seeing is that those of you on the left are at your core racist and biggotted hypocrits.”
John, this comment is spot on. I wonder about Dennis. I think he has been duped. He deals with things very superficially but if he dug a bit deeper he might find the truth.
Abbott has been busing illegal immigrants for over a year. And that has been good politics for him.
But DeSantis sending them to Martha’s Vineyard was political genius.
No one outside of conservative media is sending reporters to the southern border.
The average left wing nut is clueless about what is going on.
Abbott got small attention sending illegals to NYC and DC.
But DeSantis got the entire left wing nut media to focus on illegal immigrants by sending them to Martha’s Vineyard.
Left Wing nuts here and in the media only embarrass and expose themselves with the stupid arguments they are making.
Martha’s vineyard responded with a Gigantic public NIMBY.
Contra the left claims that they were welcomed with open arms, there were tweets and public statements and statements from media that could practically have been made by Bull Connors or George Wallace, or the KKK.
All the nonsense over kidnapping etc. is left wing frothing at the mouth lunacy.
The overwhelming majority of Americas have little trouble seeing – that it is OK for Biden and the left to FORCE these people on the working class. But not OK for those doing the forcing to have to take even a handful.
You asked about “Turn About is Fair Play” – this is a perfect example.
There is ONE political change int he past decade that Trump is entirely responsible for. That is opening up Alynski’s “Rules for Radicals” to republicans.
And some republicans are jumping in with both feet.
An anonymi Suggested Trump would take the 5th over the MAL raid. What Trump is most likely angry about right now – and biting his tongue is that DeSantis has taken the lead and the spotlight from him on an important political issue.
Trump wants to be the one in the spotlight for Sending illegals to Martha’s Vineyard. But out of office he can’t.
While this helps him and hurts democrats, it helps DeSantis more.
Abbott has been doing this too – and larger scale. But Abbott has been sending them to Chicago, DC, NYC,
Not to Martha’s Vineyard.
.”The Gov’s “relocation program’ will remind Jews of a similar program under the Nazis when Jews were lured onto trains with promises of food, housing and work at their ultimate destinations. “
I hope by now, Dennis, you have gotten the idea that being flown to Martha’s Vineyard is nothing like being raped and murdered in a Nazi concentration camp. What you said was very hurtful to anyone that thinks and lost most of their family to anti-Semites and Nazis.
You owe everyone an apology.
The best thing for Republicans would be for those like Dennis to continue to make these stupid claims.
Both you and I and others here have been guilty of trying to explain to Dennis why he is wrong point by point.
Mostly that is a mistake, What is being said by Dennis, by the left, by the media is self refuting obvious nonsense.
No one needs a detailed legal analysis of why DeSantis is not engaged in human trafficking, or kidnapping or ….
People are not stupid. They know Biden is doing this too.
They also know that there is just something fundimentally good about making sure the white left wing nut elites at Martha’s Vineyard end up with their “fair share” of brown people.
We get rants about it is not christian – then the people of MV should show us all how much more christian they are than the people of Texas.
There is not a winning argument for the left here.
This is a perfect example of “turn about is fair play”, it is also a perfect example of “Make Politics Fun Again”
Of using Alynski against the left.
Those on the left can chant “racist, incompassionate, unchristian” and there is not alot that the right can do about that.
Except watch as they drown in their own hypocracy
As Christ said – “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. The left can cast all the stones they want – there is still an obvious glass house behind them that they live in.
Illegals for thee, but not for me.
It is likely that Martha’s vineyard will not be caught flatfooted again. their best defense is preventing these people from getting to the island in the first place. but that requires constant vigalence.
And there are plenty more left wing nut affluent sanctuary cities to target next week.
“the migrants were lured onto busses and planes with promises their immigration would be expedited and they would have jobs at their destinations. It was a big fat lie!”
How do you know that? You don’t. That is why your view of history is so erroneous. You believe anecdotes told by those who know less than you. Before you put your pen to paper, try seeing if you can prove what you are saying.
.”They are not the “rapists”, “drug dealers” and “criminals” as Trump and his MAGA supports have claimed.”
Dennis, most people to the south of our border are good people. There is no question about that, as both you and I have experienced. However, Biden is doing very little, if anything, to prevent rapists, criminals, murderers, drug dealers, and the like from crossing the border. That type of person is a threat to hard-working people.
We see sanctuary cities letting illegal criminals out of jail. That is what you wish not to see to protect beliefs that are not warranted. You do not wish to discuss these things because I can prove almost every statement I make. You cannot do that because much of what you say is untrue.
.”This is an issue you should be interested in–but I’m not holding my breath you will address it anytime soon.”
I hope this is thoroughly investigated and includes an investigation of all illegal immigration. If done properly, I don’t believe the 50 illegals DeSantis flew to MV will be meaningful. Biden’s activities, on the other hand, would be prominently displayed along with his contempt for federal laws he is pledged to uphold. I think Biden could be impeached for his lawless actions.
My guess is that the most likely result of this is that DHS will quit flying illegals to FL, as DeSantis can not use them to embarrass left wing nuts, if there are few in FL.
Conversely Abbott and Ducey will likely adopt DeSantis’s tactics.
It is far more fun to transport illegals to places like Martha’s vineyard than DC, Chicago on NYC.
This is a brilliant and effective political move – as is incredibly obvious by the idiotic frothing of the mouth of leftists.
The right move on the part of those on the left would have been to throw a parade accepting these people,
and then quietly get rid of them a month later – if possible.
After that to put some watchful eyes on DeSantis and to try to reroute future flights before they get to MV.
If some guy on the web can track Elon Musk flying anywhere – then some left wing nut should be able to track DeSanti’s flights of illegals.
But democrats have been caught flat footed and are trying the stupidest ways to deal with this,
Worried about Trump as DeSantias and Abbott beat the HELL out of you.
DeSantias 2024!
You might want to learn his actual name.
Most likely the translation from Russian to English failed
Fish Wings, please take a minute and Google Joe McCarthy. If you see a picture of him and he oddly enough looks like you don’t be surprised.
If you told me 7 years ago that liberals would be calling everyone Russian agents I would have thought you were nuts.
ATS, an expert in spelling, but nothing else.
Do you have an argument ?
You know, Turley, it takes a special kind of twisted (or well-compensated) thinking to ignore the big picture and considerations for our national security and reputation among our allies to find reasons to criticize those who are trying to keep us safe and admininster justice. Of course, you know that the Trump disciples who read this blog think you are saying that the DOJ and FBI are wrong—they don’t understand how you parse what you say–but those of us who are lawyers DO see what you’re doing. After being forced out of office and having 60+ baseless lawsuits fail, and even an attempted coup fail in order to stay in power, Trump STOLE TS/SCI documents, removed them to Florida, stored them in unsecured locations, returned some, but kept most, lied about returning ALL of them, politicized and fund-raised over forcing the government to compel him to return them, and then forum-shopped for the most deeply-stupid and biased federal judge people have ever heard of. Trump filed a civil case, but she used a criminal rule in ordering a “special master” to review the materials seized–seemingly unaware that criminal rules DO NOT apply in civil cases. Trump has verbally claimed that he declassified the documents–all without anything resembling proof–and his lawyers argued about plenary power to declassify, all without actually saying that any were declassified. Declassification is a process–it can’t be done orally–there is a paper trail created, and none exists. Plus, federal regulations provide that documents related to nuclear weapons can never be declassified. Trumpy Bears latest lawyers apparently don’t want to go down the rabbit hole joining Giuliani and getting their license suspended and/or disbarment for lying on his behalf.
This lame-brained “judge” also questioned whether the documents that are marked “TS/SCI” really ARE classified, all without anything resembling proof to question this, and apparently unfamiliar with the PRA that requires ALL presidential records to be turned over to the NARA, entertained the notion that Trump might somehow have a possessory interest in them. The bottom line was, as usual with Trump, he’s trying to delay, delay, delay, which he has done in thousands of lawsuits.
Judge Cannon is the best lawyer Trump ever had. The judge is doing all the work for Trump as much as she can.
Absolutely. And she’s willing to put national security at risk to do it. Hopefully the 11th Circuit will take it more seriously.
The DOJ should have immediately challenged Trump’s attempt to get the issue moved out of Judge Reinhart’s court.
ATS, are you now trying to slime Judge Cannon? She is not willing to put national security at risk. You are lying so that you can slime her.
ATS, why do you hate woman judges? Is this how it works?
What’s really tragic is that it has taken the legal profession decades for women to be represented in the judiciary–state and federal–but here, you have an extremely unqualified (by virtue of lack of knowledge of both substantive and procedural law) and outrageously biased woman who has ignored her oath to be fair–she bends over backwards to give things to Trump that weren’t even requested, who additionally has the audacity to question the validity of the TS/SCI designations on the stolen documents. She doesn’t even understand or care that the PRA states that ALL records from the Oval Office belong to the NARA, and therefore, regardless of declassification (another Trump lie) can never be Citizen Trump’s personal property. Trump is NOT the POTUS, and has no greater right to possession of NARA papers than you or me. This loser is in so far over her head that she doesn’t even understand just how stupid she looks and how wrong and poorly-reasoned her “opinions” are. She has personally set back the cause for women in the federal judiciary for years. I’m a woman and because she is so unfit for office, I would take a second or third look at future female candidates for federal judgships. It appears that her main qualifications for office are: 1. membership in and vetting by the Federalist Society; 2. Cuban heritage; and 3. her gender.
If only there was a single point in your comment that was true.
Ohhh, Natasha be plenty angry! NARA is not a criminal statute, and no violation of it whatsoever justifies a criminal warrant. Your swamp rats are going to prison over this one, not Trump, so sad.
NARA is an executive branch agency — the National Archives and Records Administration — not a statute. Bizarre that you think it’s a statute.
The 3 alleged crimes are 18 USC 793, 1519 and 2071. All 3 of those laws are criminal statutes.
And every one of those Criminal statues has absolutely nothing to do with NARA, the PRA or Trump’s interactions with NARA.
Frankly all of them are ridiculous reaches – the same idiotic Nonsense that Mueller tried to argue.
You would have so many things to prove – most of which DOJ has not even asserted yet, to get to any of them.
Left wing nuts CONSTANTLY try to read laws as ridiculously broad.
Look at the existing cases of prosecution or non-prosecution. The first problem you have is the Clinton precedent.
In absolutely every single way Clinton’s conduct was worse. She was not authorized, She had to commit a crime just to get the documents to her home, and then she committed another crime by putting them on the net and sending them to unauthorized people. Then she actually destroyed evidence – on multiple occasions. And she conspired with people.
Sandy Berger got a slap on the wrist for STEALING documents – you do not have that.
Petreaus got a slap on the wrists for taking highly classified documents home – which was illegal for him,
and sharing them with his biographer who then stalked people using them.
Deutch was CIA director and took massive amounts of highly classified information home, and left it unsecured.
He received a slap on the wrist and was pardoned by Clinton.
What do you have here.
First, the documents were moved while Trump was president.
Trump continues to maintain the highest possible security clearance except the president.
The documents were in a government maintained office not actually in his home. They were locked up mostly or entirely in a SCIF. They were protected by the Secret Service.
And there is good reason to beleive they are not classified.
There is no destruction. Asserting legal rights and forcing the government to go to court is NOT obstruction – even if you are actually wrong about your rights – this is ancient law.
Biden cancelled Trump’s security clearance for obvious reasons. He does not receive the briefings former Presidents receive because he has proven to be untrustworthy. MAL is not and never was, a SCIF. The Secret Service was NOT protecting these stolen documents when the warrant was executed because he was in New York at the time, and it’s no the job of the Secret Service to protect stolen TS/SCI documents. Anyway, according to Trump, all TS/SCI documents had been returned, which we now know is a lie, so the Secret Service would have no reason to prevent people from getting into the papers that were held all over the place. There is absolutely NO reason to believe they were “declassified”. The issue isn’t whether a POTUS has the power to declassify: he didn’t, and this is just another lie calculated to mislead the disciples. Declassification is a process that creates a paper trail, and cannot be done orally, nor after Trump left office. Federal regulations prevent certain kinds of documents from being declassified anyway
Citizen Trump has NO greater legal rights than you or me to possess TS/SCI papers–so WHY did he steal them? Look at the history at the time of the theft: 1. just lost reelection, but due to his mental illness–narcissism–began spewing the Big Lie that his “landslide victory” was “stolen”, all to protect his fragile ego; everyone in his orbit told him he lost and to get over it–except Giuliani, who told him to declare victory anyway; 2. 60+ lawsuits claiming election fraud dismissed for lack of evidence; 3. incited his fans to attack the Capitol to prevent Biden’s victory from being certified after his effort to bully Pence and Republican secretaries of state failed; 4. had to be threatened with forcible removal if he didn’t go voluntarily; 5. broke with modern tradition of attending successor’s inauguration to show to the world that the US is not a banana republic and that the will of the American people is to be honored above ego and political party. It’s not at all surprising to me that he stole TS/SCI papers–IMHO, he was planning to leverage these documents to somehow force his way back into the power and prestige his massive ego craves, and/or use them to show off. He also was told by his White House counsel and the NARA to leave behind all Presidential records.
“Biden cancelled Trump’s security clearance for obvious reasons.”
Except there is no evidence this happened.
Do you honestly think Trump would not have made a big public deal if it had ?
There is a rumor, that Trump is not being provided the PDB.
That is NOT a known fact.
It IS known.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/politics/biden-trump-intelligence-briefing/index.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-trump-intelligence-briefings/
Whenever ATS doesn’t know what he is talking about, he links.
Nowhere in the articles that you linked did Biden say “Trump is no longer to receive these briefings.”
“I think not” – is not an order, “no need” is not an order.
Though I find it hypocritical that you are willing to cite news sources of Biden’s thoughts on questions asked by reporters,
as if they are presidential orders, but you keep pretending that actually direct public orders of Trump as president have no meaning.
Biden can end Trump’s access to classified information with so little as a tweet directing that be done.
There is no special process he must go through. There are no reviews and protocols and all the other idiotic claims those like you have made regarding Trump.
All that is necessary is for Biden to Direct that it be done.
The President can do whatever they please in the domain of national security.
The can grant or deny access, they can classify or declassify. they can do so explicitly or defacto – by Act.
There is no protocol that applies to the president, there is no review board, and no appeal of the national security decisions of the president. What they can not do is change the past.
The two cites you provide do not anywhere in them state Biden has rescinded Trump’s access to anything. Not classified briefs, not the PDB, not his security clearance.
They are Biden’s musings, not his directives.
Biden is free to restrict Trump’s future access to classified information as he pleases.
But he can not do so telepathically, or by musing in an interview. He must ACT.
Biden doesn’t have to do anything in public to end Trump’s classified access.
You called it a “rumor,” and I gave you evidence that it’s more than a “rumor.” If you can’t accept that evidence, that’s on you.
“There is no special process he must go through.”
Right!!
So your demand that Biden do it publicly is just more of your BS.
Biden does not have to act publicly, but he MUST convey rescinding clearance to Trump unequivocally.
There is no evidence he has done that.
Further Biden can not avoid doing so publicly – because Trump will make it public.
Trump has not, therefore it is unlikely it has happened.
No you did not give me evidence it was more than a rumor. You provided evidence of Biden chattering.
Biden did not issue an order. He did not say he had issued an order.
Your evidence is not evidence.
I accept evidence that is evidence.
You evidence that Biden rescinded anything regarding Trump is actually weaker than Trump’s claim he declassified the documents at MAL. Both claims rest on what a person said. But in one claim that person said they actually acted. In the other they merely side something might be a good idea.
I am not demanding Biden do anything publicly.
But I am saying that whether Biden chose to do it publicly or not,
if it actually happened it would become public. Trump would make sure of that.
One thing it is likely we both agree on is that Trump craves the spotlight (BTW so does Biden, which is why he is so angry with Trump). Trump is going to take every possible oportunity to put himself into the spotlight.
The left is foaming at the mouth, they think they have finally gotten Trump.
But Trump is happy as a clam. He is in the spotlight again – and guaranteed to be there for a long time to come.
He is not acting like someone scared of going to jail. He is acting like a heavy weight who has just picked a fight with a light weight bully, and knows who is going to win.
You and I do nto know alot of things here now, today. Just as we did not in Early 2017.
But Trump knows whether these documents are classified. He knows what is in them.
He knows all the things we do not know.
FBI/DOJ know many things – we do not know. But Trump knows far more than they do.
Because this is all about HIM and what HE did. and know one knows that better than him.
This is nearly exactly like the collusion delusion and has a very high probability of ending the same way.
Durbin once remarked that Trump should be careful about the deep state because they can get you six ways from Sunday.
But we must look at Trump. Trump has had some Bump’s in his life – but he has always recovered.
More that recovered – he has succeeded and thrived. Almost everything he has touched has turned to gold.
Musk and Bezos and Buffet and Gates have done better overall – but except for Musk they all succeeded in only one domain. Musk is up to 4 and likely will be very much like Trump in 20 years.
Trump has succeeded in nearly everything he has touched.
A Durbin like claim is do not play poker with a man who has made billions owning cassinos.
I do not know if Trump bluffs. There is little evidence that is does.
I know that he does not get caught bluffing.
You can like Trump or hate him. But contra the left, if Trump places a bet – you can take that to the bank.
You do not know what all the cards are. I do not know what all the cards are.
DOJ and Biden know more cards than you or I. But only Trump knows all the cards.
He knows his own hand. and he likely knows all or most of Biden’s hand.
You can bet against Trump again if you want, but that is a suckers bet.
The 11th Circuit is run by Supreme Court Justice?
No, none of the Circuit Courts of Appeal are “run by Supreme Court Justice.”
https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/circuitassignments.aspx
For the Eleventh Circuit – Clarence Thomas, Associate Justice
(Alabama, Florida, Georgia)
Do you and to debate what “run” means ?
Now you need to learn what each Justice is responsible for in the circuit(s)) allotted to them:
https://www.scotusblog.com/2020/11/court-issues-new-circuit-assignments-2/
See also https://www.supremecourt.gov/publicinfo/reportersguide.pdf
They do not run the Circuit.
So you do want to debate what “run” means.
You really are an idiot.
You are like Humpty Dumpty (“’When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’”) I use dictionary meanings.
I will concede – Justice Thomas does not “move swiftly on foot” with respect to the 11th circuit.
For the Eleventh Circuit – Clarence Thomas, Associate Justice
(Alabama, Florida, Georgia)
Natacha says:
“… the big picture and considerations for our national security and reputation among our allies to find reasons to criticize those who are trying to keep us safe and administer justice. …”
IMHO: The big picture and considerations are,
There are those Whom want to be Kept (i.e.: like a ‘kept’ woman) and their’ Keepers, want to keep them Kept.
(For the sake of argument herein after- Type D)
Then there are those Whom want to be Freely Living and responsible on their Own accord, in control of their Lives.
(For the sake of argument herein after – Type R)
Both Type D & Type R want ‘Laws’ that are Reasonable (Reasonable Man), and effect Reasonable Security with Reasonable Intervention.
I find it conflicted (convoluted) that the said Documents being deemed “Classified’ as such that a Reasonable Man (You & I) should not have privy access to them.
If the Government is not is not acting within a ‘Reasonable’ fashion, as witnessed in the ‘Content of the Classified Document(s), then there is greater reason to make them Transparent.
[Rephrase: Why it is necessary to submarine/suppress (Classify) the Content to being with, If the [Our] Government is acting Reasonable ? – (because it’s not acting ‘reasonable’)]
It’s no secret the Americanism is founded & based on Double-Standards. Indeed the American form of Capitalism as in the parlance of Our time,
is a Bankrupt Ponzi scheme. If America wasn’t that, if it was true to the cannons of Democracy, We would not have the; CIA, FBI, DHS, the Deep State, and Big Brother, there would be no need for that.
https://youtu.be/5eEAA37N_zw?t=206s
Who is on this video: Natacha, FishWings, Dennis, Benson, Anonymous (the “mental” one)?
https://youtu.be/9PkRg45SLE8
Answer: E Pluribus Unum – All of the Above
Hilarious! The only ones they are trying to “keep safe” are themselves.
I can’t wait until Garland, Reinhart, and their lapdog FBI thugs go to prison for criminal conspiracy to violate President Trump’s rights – AGAIN.
The Court does not find it appropriate to accept the Government’s conclusions on these important and disputed issues without further review by a neutral third party in an expedited and orderly fashion….
Judge Canon has said out loud
The EmperorDoJ has noclothesRule of law. While the DoJ claims to be draped in the finery of Constitutional righteousness, they are in fact exposed in all their naked exposed corrupt intentions and actions.The Judge has taken into account, tha past actions of Garland since his appointment, and the FBI over the last 7 years, and declared they will have to prove their conclusions. They have spent all the reputation they had built in the past.
The Bill of Rights is to be honored in its design to protect people from the unlimited power of the Federal Govt.
claims to
“In its motion for a stay pending appeal, it is only asking the 11th Circuit to allow it to continue using classified documents seized from former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago property in a criminal investigation.”
Wait, is JT suggesting DJ had classified documents at his mar a logo castle?
What in the world are classified documents doing at mar a logo?
The nuclear codes were at MAL as well. Do you believe that the President doesn’t have to function 24/7 even when away from the WH? OK. We know you always wear lead boots in a foot race.
I must have missed something. Is trump still president?
You must be sleeping. When Trump was President the nuclear codes and other things were always with him even at MAL. Take off the lead boots and take a nap.
Also learn the difference between present and past tense.
In reality the scariest thing is that Joe Biden has access to the nuclear codes as well as anything classified as top secret. Just imagine the staff saying, “now remember Joe, don’t mention that we can live with a little incursion into Ukraine, that is a secret”. Fast forward an hour and we have Joe Biden, “we can live with a little incursion into Ukraine”.
Imagine the staff telling Biden, “we will defend Taiwan militarily but we must remain ambiguous in public” followed an hour later by Joe Biden, “we will defend Taiwan militarily”.
Trump had and has many issues, but if you think really hard you might recall that Russia didn’t invade Ukraine, as they did in 2014 and 2022, North Korea stopped testing missiles, Iran was in a box and China was not buzzing Taiwan. But hey, we all wanted an open border, high inflation, high gas prices, a serious and troubling reduction of our strategic petroleum reserve and higher crime.
+1.234567890T
Wrong assumption….Trump is being accused of having classified documents….and until they are PROVEN to be classified….it is only an accusation.
You do understand Trump has a say so in that situation….if he declassified those documents while he was President….they are not classified by Law.
That is what the Special Master is tasked to do….screen all of the seized documents and determine their status….and that might require him to ask for assistance by the DNI and other authorities to determine the actual status of those documents in question as possibly being classified.
We understand the Left has its own view about Due Process and the Rule of Law….but as usual the Government must be held to those principles and actually PROVE its Case against Trump…..and not just convict him by mere innuendo and what amounts to gossip.
My money is on the Appeal Court approving the Special Master….and that it grants him the responsibility of determining the status of the questioned documents and requires that be his first step in the review of all the documents.
How fast that can be done is the question….and is the method by which the correct and final status of the document can be certified.
It shall take time….something the Left hates with the 2022 and 202 Elections looming near.
“Trump is being accused of having classified documents”
Nope.
The search warrant was approved on the basis of probable cause for 3 crimes, and none of those 3 alleged crimes refers to classified documents.
For example 18 USC 793e:
“Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; … Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.”
Do you understand the difference between “classified documents” (your claim) and “information relating to the national defense”?
“if he declassified those documents while he was President….they are not classified by Law.”
That’s a big IF. He hasn’t claimed to the court that he declassified the documents that the DOJ is concerned about.
“That is what the Special Master is tasked to do….screen all of the seized documents and determine their status”
How will the Special Master do that? They all have classification markings on them, and Trump hasn’t asserted that he declassified them.
“that might require him to ask for assistance by the DNI”
The DNI would point out that they all have classification markings on them and that Trump hasn’t asserted that he declassified them. You don’t say what else you think the DNI would do.
“retired judge Raymond Dearie is now in place and was reportedly asked to prioritize those documents.”
The fact that Turley says “reportedly” here tells us that he hasn’t read Cannon’s order, because she was quite explicit about this. SMH that he’s discussing an order he hasn’t bothered to read.
Unfortunately, it’s unsurprising that Turley isn’t discussing the substance of the DOJ’s motion:
“The district court has entered an unprecedented order enjoining the Executive Branch’s use of its own highly classified records in a criminal investigation with direct implications for national security. … Although the government believes the district court fundamentally erred in appointing a special master and granting injunctive relief, the government seeks to stay only the portions of the order causing the most serious and immediate harm to the government and the public by (1) restricting the government’s review and use of records bearing classification markings and (2) requiring the government to disclose those records for a special-master review process. … The district court recognized the government’s overriding interest in assessing and
responding to the national-security risk from the possible unauthorized disclosure of the records bearing classification markings. … the criminal investigation is itself essential to the government’s effort to identify and mitigate potential national-security risks. … requiring disclosure of classified records to a special master and to Plaintiff’s counsel, see D.E. 91 at 4, would impose irreparable harm on the government and public. The Supreme Court has emphasized that courts should be cautious before “insisting upon an examination” of records whose disclosure would jeopardize national security “even by the judge alone, in chambers.””
I doubt that Trump’s counsel even have security clearances to view these materials, and Cannon cannot order the government to approve them. That issue is wholly within the Executive Branch. Cannon’s order raises multiple separation of powers issues.
Turley should act like the law professor he is and discuss them.
I doubt that Trump’s counsel even have security clearances to view these materials
As the Judge says in the ruling, this is one of the ‘facts’ not adjudicated, that the DoJ none the less, present as fact.
Documents with classification markings will be treated by the DOJ as classified. Cannon cannot adjudicate whether Trump’s counsel have security clearances. That’s entirely an Executive Branch matter.
“As the Judge says in the ruling …”
Yet you do not quote her.
“The Court does not find it appropriate to accept the Government’s conclusions on these important and disputed issues ”
There is the quote. You should read the decision before going off half cocked.
I *have* read the opinion. YOU should not assume facts not in evidence.
As for your quote, if you bothered to read the entire paragraph that you’re quoting from, nowhere does she does contest what I stated:
1) Documents with classification markings will be treated by the DOJ as classified.
2) Cannon cannot adjudicate whether Trump’s counsel have security clearances.
1) Documents with classification markings will be treated by the DOJ as classified.
The Judge rejects the conclusion. That means they DoJ has no special interests in those documents.
No, she didn’t reject that Documents with classification markings will be treated by the DOJ as classified. You often have trouble with relevant details.
Off course she rejected the claim. Otherwise she would have granted the DoJ their motion. But instead she said
““The Court does not find it appropriate to accept the Government’s conclusions on these important and disputed issues ”
The DoJ can just treat Trump as guilty and lock him up. As long as all they have to do is make a declaration.
You’re having difficult attending to what “important and disputed issues” she’s referring to. She is NOT referring to the fact that Documents with classification markings will be treated by the DOJ as classified.
*difficulty, not difficult
Except, the government, the court and the news media does not know if any of the documents marked classified are actually classified documents. In the end, these are presidential documents and there are no criminal statutes on the possession and storage of said presidential documents. The president was in possession of presidential documents, just like they have been for 250 years. But it is different when the federal government is hell-bent on putting a former president in prison for any reason they can find.
“these are presidential documents”
You do not know that. Why are you asserting that all of the 100+ government documents with classified markings are subject to the PRA, when they could instead be agency documents subject to the FRA? Do you understand the difference? Trump’s lawyers admitted that “All government records (classified or otherwise) fall into two basic categories, either under the PRA or the Federal Records Act (“FRA”),“ yet you ignore the second group, even though it’s a much larger group.
when they could instead be agency documents subject to the FRA?
Because it is impossible for the DoJ to rebutt the claim of declassification if made by the Past President.
Trump hasn’t made such a claim to the court. It’s also totally irrelevant to whether they’re FRA versus PRA records. Do you understand the difference?
The DoJ has not made the claim to the court the documents are classified. The DoJ is very careful not to make such a claim,Only hiding behind the phase “marked classified” as they have no path to support their claim against a Statement by the Past President, he had them declassified.
Until charges are filed, it is silly to offer any defense.
I’m guessing that you refuse to answer “Do you understand the difference [between FRA versus PRA records]?” because the answer is “no” and you’re too cowardly to admit it.
“The DoJ has not made the claim to the court the documents are classified.”
Sure it did. As a simple example: “the government seeks a stay to the extent the Order (1) enjoins the
further review and use for criminal investigative purposes of records bearing classification markings that were recovered pursuant to a court-authorized search warrant and (2) requires the government to disclose those classified records to a special master for review” (emphasis added). It refers to them as classified records literally dozens of times.
The criminal statute covering the documents is 18 USC 2071 which was cited in the search warrant.
“The district court has entered an unprecedented order enjoining the Executive Branch’s use of its own highly classified records in a criminal investigation with direct implications for national security.
None of that is a fact. All is nothing but the idle ramblings of the very political DoJ inserting them selves into the political season.
I think Judge Canons ruling mentions the fact, but for the leaks by the DoJ, the documents of so dire importance, were unknown to the pubic.
See, before you asserted that “The DoJ has not made the claim to the court the documents are classified” and now you’re quoting them referring to “its own highly classified records.”
Will you admit that you were wrong before? No. Because you’re a coward who consistently runs away from admitting when you’re wrong.
“but for the leaks by the DoJ, the documents of so dire importance, were unknown to the pubic.”
Nonsense. Trump shared the NARA letter with John Solomon, who published it, and both the warrant and cover letter were unsealed by the court. Only in your bizarro-world is either of those a leak from the DOJ.
ATS seems to be saying it is OK for the DOJ to leak things. Why should the DOJ be leaking anything? That is what justice departments do in authoritarian nations, and frequently what they leak or sign is a lie, just like the DOJ we have been observing for a matter of years.
ATS is standing up for authoritarian rule.
Trump provided the NARA letter to Solomon AFTER DOJ leaked all this nonsense.
Get your timelines straight.
Trump did not make this into a public Fiasco. DOJ/FBI did.
I have my timelines straight.
The FBI carried out a search on Aug. 8. The same day, a local Florida reporter, Peter Schorsch, reported seeing the FBI at Mar-a-Lago, and Trump released a statement on Truth Social claiming in part “These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-A-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents.” That’s not a leak by the DOJ.
Reinhart ordered that the warrant and cover letter be unsealed on Aug. 12. That’s not a leak by the DOJ.
Solomon published the NARA letter prior to the evening of Aug. 22. That’s not a leak by the DOJ.
You don’t specify what you’re claiming the “DOJ leaked.” Just WHAT are you claiming they leaked and WHAT is your evidence that they leaked it?
Only in your bizarro-world is either of those a leak from the DOJ.
Tell it to the Judge. She’s the one stating the DoJ is leaking the existence of classified info.
Are those. documents Classified?
State your case to confirm they are.
Were they de-classified by Trump White House policy and procedure?
What documentation exists to confirm that de-classification?
Trump as President was as are every President….the Final Clearance Authority and can for any reason at any time declassify a document…..did he do so for these documents in question?
Prove he did not….and how do you do that beyond just running your big mouth and just saying they are yet classified.
The Ball is in your and the FBI/DOJ Court….but as in every ball game…you have to follow the Rules or be called out for any violation.
Now prove your Case.
“Are those. documents Classified? State your case to confirm they are.”
Why? It doesn’t matter to any of the alleged crimes. Have you read the text of the alleged crimes? If not, here you go:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071
law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519
These are identified on the warrant cover sheet: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22140633-220818-warrant-cover-sheet-unseal#document/p3/a2141020
“Prove he did not”
I don’t have to prove things simply because you want me to and when they’re irrelevant to the actual alleged crimes.
“Now prove your Case.”
Pay attention to what my case ACTUALLY is.
Were they de-classified by Trump White House policy and procedure?
Policy and procedures that exempt the President.
“it notably dropped its opposition to the appointment on appeal…”
It didn’t.
For goodness sake, it literally is titled “Motion For Partial Stay Pending Appeal” (emphasis added). They’ve simply filed the motion for a stay for a more limited part of the ruling now, as it’s more time-sensitive than the rest of the appeal. Their argument starts off “In determining whether to grant a stay pending appeal, …”
Did Turley not read the document? is he purposefully trying to mislead readers? It’s hard to account for such a basic error from a law professor. The full appeal does not have to be limited to the issue for which they seek a stay.
And since I don’t see a link to the motion:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22418138/9-16-22-doj-motion-stay-11th-circuit-mal.pdf
According to MSNBC the DoJ has not filed the appeal, you claim is “pending”
Duh. That’s what “pending” means here: that it has not yet been filed.
Duh. That’s what “pending” means here: that it has not yet been filed.
Yea, I tell people all the time my nomination to SCOTUS is pending.
DOJ will loose the appeal. 11th circuit is not DC, its conservative. DOJ can appeal to Supreme Court, but Thomas oversees these courts. Might be interesting to see the appeal move forward to Supreme Court.
Agreed the DoJ will lose on appeal. The Republican judges will protect Trump.
Have you read Cannon’s order and the DOJ’s motion for a stay?
If not, then you are not in a position to assess how the 11th Circuit will rule.
If you *have* read them, how about discussing their substance of Cannon’s order, the DOJ’s motion, and the basis for an 11th Circuit ruling? It would actually be a conservative ruling to rule in favor of the DOJ on this.
ATS, you keep accusing people that they haven’t read something and, therefore, are not in a position to comment.
You claim to have read many things discussed on this blog, but in the end, your opinions are wrong. Maybe you have a problem integrating all the documents and being able to look at things realistically.
Tell us which of the significant stories involving Trump you were correct. So far, it sounds like zero.
RE: The DOJ would clearly like to eke out a victory before the Special Master rules.” Nothing more than an effort in exerting ‘The Right of the Lord of the Manner’ for access to something they might be ruled against going forward.
The government employees want to win every point, even the unimportant issues.
A reminder that they have unlimited budgets (our money).
I once fought a local government in California.
They fought every motion and issue.
Since I was paying my legal fees, I had to pick and choose my battles.
In actuality, much of what the DA won (because I didn’t fight those issues) was just to be able to keep the case in the press and trumpet his “victories”.
But in this case, a partisan media is playing along with the DOJ.