Fetterman Turns to Controversial Clinton Lawyer Marc Elias’ Firm to Strike Down Pennsylvania Election Provisions

Democratic Senate candidate John Fetterman and other Democrats have filed a federal lawsuit to strike down parts of Pennsylvania’s election law after the state Supreme Court ruled that mail-in ballots with incorrect dates or no dates should not be counted. Fetterman is challenging the state law on constitutional and federal statutes. He has turned to a controversial former lawyer for Hillary Clinton to seek to strike down the provision.

John Fetterman, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC) and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) is suing Pennsylvania’s 67 county boards of elections over the “Date Instruction,” which prevents counties from counting undated or wrongly dated mail-in ballots (ballots that are timely cast and valid but missing a date on their outer return envelopes). The challenge is brought under the First and Fourteenth Amendments as well as the Materiality Provision of the Civil Rights Act.

The Supreme Court previously ruled that these rules are mandatory in Date Instruction on a Petition for Discretionary Review in In re Canvass of Absentee and Mail-In Ballots of November 3, 2020 General Election, 241 A.3d 1058, 1062 (Pa. 2020). A majority found the language of the law to be clear and mandatory. The requirement is contained in Section 3150.16 of the Election Code:

At any time after receiving an official mail-in ballot, but on or before eight o’clock P.M. the day of the primary or election, the mail-in elector shall, in secret, proceed to mark the ballot only in black lead pencil, indelible pencil or blue, black or blue-black ink, in fountain pen or ball point pen, and then fold the ballot, enclose and securely seal the same in the envelope on which is printed, stamped or endorsed “Official Election Ballot.” This envelope shall then be placed in the second one, on which is printed the form of declaration of the elector, and the address of the elector’s county board of election and the local election district of the elector. The elector shall then fill out, date and sign the declaration printed on such envelope. Such envelope shall then be securely sealed and the elector shall send same by mail, postage prepaid, except where franked, or deliver it in person to said county board of election.

25 P.S. § 3150.16(a) (emphasis added).

The majority held that, regardless of the perceived wisdom of such requirements, it is unambiguously required by Pennsylvania after being approved by the state legislature.

Fetterman is now asking the federal courts to negate the state provision as an “unnecessary impediment [under] the Civil Rights Act and the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.”

The problem is that the legislature clearly concluded that such dates are material to the security of the vote-by-mail system.  Fetterman is asking the federal court to simply declare that it is not since Section 101(a) of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 provides:

“No person acting under color of law shall . . . deny the right of any individual to vote in any election because of an error or omission on any record or paper relating to any application, registration, or other act requisite to voting, if such error or omission is not material in determining whether such individual is qualified under State law to vote in such election.”

Under the constitutional claims, Fetterman argues that “the Date Instruction serves no legitimate purpose. It is a trivial procedural formality that functions only to disenfranchise eligible voters seeking to vote.”

(MSNBC/via YouTube)

Fetterman is relying on the controversial former Clinton counsel Marc Elias and his Elias Law Group. We have previously discussed the controversial history of Elias, including accusations by reporters of allegedly denying the funding of the Steele Dossier by the Clinton campaign. He has also been sanctioned by the courts and the Clinton campaign was recently sanctioned by the FEC over its hiding of the funding of the dossier through his prior firm.

Elias has also been criticized for challenging elections when he and other Democratic lawyers denounced Republican challenges as a threat to democracy.  Elias later came under intense criticism after a tweet that some have called inherently racist. He was denounced for a tweet where he suggested that Georgia voters could not be expected to be able to read their driver’s licenses correctly.

The use of Elias was a controversy in the prior election when Terry McAuliffe hired Elias to make challenges against now Gov. Glenn Youngkin’s election.

In this case, local counsel is Adam C. Bonin, who signed the complaint below.

Here is the complaint: Fetterman lawsuit

253 thoughts on “Fetterman Turns to Controversial Clinton Lawyer Marc Elias’ Firm to Strike Down Pennsylvania Election Provisions”

      1. The keys appear to be keys that could be used to open the ballot box. Without breaking the law, the PV employee could not try the key out. It is obvious from the way the official handled himself that he had no concern for the legitimacy of the election.

        Whose keys were they. You are making the case that such ballot boxes should not exist because they aren’t and cannot be appropriately monitored.

        Why is it the same locations that we see evidence of fraud? Because these leftist areas have been committing fraud for a long time.

  1. “[A] Trump supporter tried to bash in the skull of Paul Pelosi.”

    I think I discovered the Left’s morning routine:

    Wake up — lie.

    Wash face — lie.

    Sip coffee — make stuff up.

    How does the Left rationalize its pathological dishonesty? The ends (in this case, “Get Trump!”) justifies the means.

    If there were truth in politics, the Left’s motto would be: “Vote for us, if you, too, are at war with reality.”

  2. Well Fetterman won. Congratulations. Lets’ hope MAGA nutties don’t start losing their minds, yet. Now he will have a chance to prove himself as he should.

    So much for that “Red wave”. More like a pink trickle.

    Trump’s indictment should be coming pretty soon. I give it at least three weeks for an announcement.

    1. Just proof that there are plenty of dimwits on the left.

      Your actually proud and celebrating electing Fetterman ?

      We now have TWO vegetables in the Federal Government.

      Results accross the country are wierd – it is clear that Democrats won some places that they were expected to lose – such as NY legitimately.

      But PA is pretty simple – Fraud in Philadelphia put Fetterman in the Senate.

      Election corruption is a major problem in PA, and it is not going away unfortunately anytime soon.
      We still have a democratic government – though Shapiro is likely an improvement over Wolf – who was a disaster.
      The PA Supreme court is still on the wrong side of the US and PA constitutions.

      Statewide democrats can ALWAYS count on an extra 200-250K fraudulent votes in PA.

      I have not looked at many other races. I am shocked that MI re-elected Whitman – as she was probably the single worst Covid governor in the country. Detroit is usually good for a fair amount of fraudulent votes too. But Whitmer’s margin of victory is larger than can likely be accounted for by Fraud.

      1. “Your actually proud and celebrating electing Fetterman ?”

        No, just pointing out the fact that fetterman’s condition was not/ should not have been an impediment to run for office and it proved to be correct. Now that he is duly elected he will have to prove himself capable and able for the job. If he has issues or more serious problems during his term he can always decide to resign. That IS the process as it should be.

        “Results accross the country are wierd…”. Yes there were, because republicans got too cocky with their reading of the polls and the overhyped rhetoric. This kind of mistake has been made by democrats as well. Being overconfident and cocky seems to be the problem with some republicans who are just now realizing they were buying too much into their own overinflated rhetoric.

        “But PA is pretty simple – Fraud in Philadelphia put Fetterman in the Senate.

        Election corruption is a major problem in PA, and it is not going away unfortunately anytime soon.”

        Nope. It seems PA lawmakers are ignorant of how their own laws work. As I noted down thread.

        “In some cases, a voter’s identifying information is automatically verified. For example, if they supply their driver’s license number with an online ballot application, the system automatically cross-references it with Pennsylvania Department of Transportation data, acting Secretary of State Leigh Chapman wrote in a Friday response letter to the Republican lawmakers.

        However, in other cases, the voter’s identifying information must go through further verification processes. When that happens, the application enters the statewide system under a designation labeled “NV,” or “not verified.”

        Notably, the “not verified” designation doesn’t mean the voter didn’t provide accurate identification information, nor does it mean their ID wasn’t later verified.

        “The code does not reflect the results of any identification check but is, in fact, an additional mechanism to ensure that counties are properly verifying ID provided by voters,” Chapman said.

        Chapman added that the “NV” status can also be applied to applications of voters who request to permanently receive mail-in ballots so that verification occurs for every election in which the ballot is issued.

        If a voter’s identification can’t be verified at the time they apply for a ballot, state law does require that the voter still be issued a ballot and be provided an opportunity until the sixth day after the election to provide the proper proof of identification. But counties are not to count the ballot unless the voter provides proof of identification.”

        There is no fraud. Just PA lawmakers being ignorant of the law and a complete lack of understanding how their verification system works.

        1. What you point out is wrong.

          We should not elect vegetables to the senate.
          We already have a brian dead president.

          The fact that Fetterman was elected is not proof his is capable.
          Nothing has changed.
          He is still unqualified to do the job.

          We will have one more wife acting in the shadows as a surogate for an elected official.

          No one is disputing that Fetterman can hold office – we can elect someone who is brain dead and in a coma.
          That does not mean we should.

          What little we actually know of Fettermans condition, should have caused him to withdarw and voters to make a different choice.

          1/3 of people who have a stroke die within 3 years.
          I recently saw video of Fetterman a week after his stroke.
          He has DECLINED dramatically since then – that often happens.
          Contra his claims – he is getting worse – not better.
          Again that is the NORM.

          It has been 5 months. The odds of his EVER being better than he is right now, are very small.
          The odds of further strokes are high.

          Though the root cause for his was untreated arythmia. He has subsequently receved a pacemaker that MIGHT reduce his future risk of further strokes. Or it might not. but it is alteast POSSIBLE that he might not decline further.
          Regardless, his own decision to ignore his arrhythmia – which was diagnosed more than a year ago itself disqualifies him.

          Do we honestly want as senator people whose judgement on their own health is so poor that they brought themselves to an avoidable stroke as the result of poor choices ?

          I am unfortunately too familiar with both arrhythmia and its risks and the consequences of strokes.

          I have real sympathy for Fettermans health problems.

          But it is still highly unlikely he will regain any lost functionality at this time. It is much more likely his condition will get worse, not better.

          I am not a doctor, I am working from what medical information has been released. known medical information about strokes, recovery, arrythmia, and survival rates. If Fetterman were more forthcoming, there MIGHT be information that gives some hope for a better future – but the odds are heavily against it.

          Fetterman gambled and lost with his arrythmia.
          He gambled and won the election – barely.

          And pennsylvania voters unfortunately gambled with him – with obvious help from Phildelphia election officials.

          1. “ We should not elect vegetables to the senate.
            We already have a brian dead president.

            The fact that Fetterman was elected is not proof his is capable.
            Nothing has changed.
            He is still unqualified to do the job.”

            “ No one is disputing that Fetterman can hold office – we can elect someone who is brain dead and in a coma.
            That does not mean we should.”

            False. YOU are disputing that Fetterman can hold office.

            Trump wasn’t qualified to hold office either but he was still elected. What I point out is still correct. Fetterman CHOSE to keep running despite his disability. He had every right to do so and only he can choose whether to keep going or resign if his condition gets worse. The fact that he won over Oz shows just how bad Oz was. Fetterman in his condition was still a better choice and that says a lot about what Oz was not.

            Fetterman had no obligation to rerelease his medical records at all. There is no requirement for any candidate to release their medical records. I can guarantee you that if every congressman were to release their medical records nearly all would be unqualified or deemed a risk and everyone of them would be vulnerable to some form of black mail or constant doubt about their poor health.

            “ And pennsylvania voters unfortunately gambled with him – with obvious help from Phildelphia election officials.”

            There was no fraud John. No matter how much you want it to be true. Your paranoia about fraud is getting the better of you. It’s more of an excuse now when your expectations are not met. It’s the convenient excuse. It becomes one giant rabbit hole of denial and suspicion where no amount of evidence will not convince anyone that fraud was not the issue.

            1. “False. YOU are disputing that Fetterman can hold office.”
              Not interested in micro-parsing the difference between can and should.
              This is near certain to go badly. That is on you.

            2. “Trump wasn’t qualified to hold office either but he was still elected.”
              Trump was more than qualified, the claims of incapacity are garbage.
              While Trump pretends the MOCA means more than it does – MOCA is not an intelligence test, it is a cognative disability test, the best you can do is normal, and Trump tested normal. As long as someone does not take it for you you can not game a MOCA.
              Neither Biden nor Fetterman is going to test normal on MOCA. The only question is the degree of cognative impairment on each.

              MOCA test memory – Biden will undoubtedly fail that – Fetterman might. MOCA tests auditory processing – Biden will probably pass that section Fetterman will not.

              It is in theory possible Fetterman will recover – after 5months that is highly unlikely.
              Further go find video of him shortly after the stroke and compare it to now.
              He is in decline – not recovery. He is much worse.

              “What I point out is still correct. Fetterman CHOSE to keep running despite his disability. He had every right to do so”
              People make bad choices all the time.
              Democrats can run a candidate in a coma if they wish, and that candidate CAN win.
              The SHOULD not.
              Fetterman was not qualified for the job BEFORE the stroke. He is a failed small town mayor, who get a free ride as LT Gov. Were he did nothing consequential. His only “qualifications” are that some people think he is charasmatic.
              He has never accomplished anything in his life beside winning a few elections.
              His election is proof of the dysfunction in the Democratic party.

              “and only he can choose whether to keep going or resign if his condition gets worse.”
              Making a poor choice about continuing is more evidence he should not be a senator.

              To be clear to YOU. He is highly unlikely to be able to perform the job.
              He is going to be a potted plant and someone else is going to end up doing the work.
              It is unlikely he can process information well enough to make good decisions – not that he EVER showed the ability to make good decisions.

              “The fact that he won over Oz shows just how bad Oz was.”
              No it proves that democrats make poor choices. Oz lacks charisma. That is a deficit for getting elected.
              In terms of actual qualificantions – the man has been successful in multiple fields in life. His IQ is likely Double Fettermans currently
              He was unlikely to be a Rock Star Senator – but he undoubtedly has more skills and qualifications accross multiple domains than MOST of the Senate. Rejecting Oz speaks to voters judgement – not his ability.
              The last thing we need in Government is another lump that thinks reality listens to the dictates of politicians.

              In two years Democrats have wreaked havoc on the nation – not just the economy – but accross the boards.
              It is highly unlikely to get better any time soon.
              Frankly Democrats only hope for 2024 is that Republicans in the house and possibly Senate protect democrats from themselves.

              The current inflation in combination with the Fed raising intererest rates – means every tactic available to mitigate the mess that we are currently in has been expended. In 2008 the Fed had some ability to mitigate the damage of deficits by buying US debt.
              Keynesians and some monetarist economists believe that is the right response to a crisis. I do not – but it is not a strategy that we have yet PROVEN wrong. It likely did not work under Obama and is likely the reason for the protracted 1.6% growth doldrums.
              Regardless, it did not cause a crisis, but it reduced our ability to act in the future. Then Trump increased defense spending.
              You can argue the merits of that for other reasons- it worked for Reagan in bringing about the collapse of the USSR. But economically it was unwise and further reduced our ability to deal with future issues. Trump then spent $2T on Covid – that was a huge mistake and is probably responsible for inflation up to 3%. Not fatal but not good. But Biden spent another 5T on Covid – and almost another 1T on the ironically named Inflation Reduction Act and atleast another 1/2T on his student debt idiocy. Aside from the unaffordable cost, and the stupid wealth transfer from the working class, it is probably the worst creation of moral hazzard in US history – Moral hazzard is where you incentivize BAD conduct.
              Regardless, The Fed is NOT going to monetize further US Deficits. Were it to do so Inflation would increase. Whereever the tipping point is – Biden has exceeded it. There is no option for further spending that does not have serious problems.
              If the FED is no longer monetizing US debt – we will be going back to borrowing from monied interests. Interest on US debt will rise – slowly but inexorably, The good news is the increase interest costs will rise slowly. The bad news is that they will not come back down anytime soon.
              We will have higher debt costs from this for probably a decade. That is hundreds of billions of dollars each year for a long time – for NOTHING., except to make lenders rich. The Truss govrnment in the UK failed in days – because it thought it could continue to borrow and spend without consequence. So long as the Fed could monetize US debt that was not a risk facing the US. It is now. What we see currently is a complete repudiation of the MMT theory of economics – that Krugman and others have been peddling for a decade and that Obama and even Trump tepidly operated under. Biden bought in whole Hog and was slammed immediately. \

              Regardless the point is we need less morons from the left running the country – the entire World is facing serious problems because of OUR bad choices.

              And people like you gave us Fetterman and Biden to solve it ? If the consequences of YOUR bad choices were ONLY for you – I would be OK with that. But you are already harming the entire country and it is not getting better soon.

              So NO I do not think a person who can not figure out that he is incapable of the job, should be the one doing it.
              And YES, the person who has succeeded at multiple other endeavors in life is FAR MORE qualified.

              But democratic voters – for whatever bad reason made the choice for all of us. And unfortunately we will ALL have to pay the price.

              “Fetterman in his condition was still a better choice and that says a lot about what Oz was not.”
              What is speaks to is the poor judgement of democrat voters, that is all.

              “Fetterman had no obligation to rerelease his medical records at all. There is no requirement for any candidate to release their medical records.”
              He did not, and he got away with it – and because people like YOU allowed him to get away with it we ALL will suffer.
              You do not seem to grasp that picking idiots like Fetterman – have consequences. Just as picking idiots like Biden have already had consequences.

              Reality does not bend to your command. There is no magic wand to make the bad ideas of the left work.

              “I can guarantee you that if every congressman were to release their medical records nearly all would be unqualified or deemed a risk and everyone of them would be vulnerable to some form of black mail or constant doubt about their poor health.”
              Very bizzare argument – no one is vulnerable to blackmail by making information public. People are vulnerable to blackmail for keeping damaging secrets.
              As to the rest of congress – when they are running for election ASK.

              ““ And pennsylvania voters unfortunately gambled with him – with obvious help from Phildelphia election officials.”
              There was no fraud John. No matter how much you want it to be true. Your paranoia about fraud is getting the better of you.”
              Svelaz there is ALWAYS fraud in Philadelphia – that is NEVER in question. PRetending otherwise just shows YOUR ignorance.
              It is also near certain that some of it will surface – inarguably, and a few people will be prosecuted, and it all will be swept under the rug – as it is each election year in PA.

              “It’s more of an excuse now when your expectations are not met. It’s the convenient excuse. It becomes one giant rabbit hole of denial and suspicion where no amount of evidence will not convince anyone that fraud was not the issue.”
              Nope, it is reality.

              And a part of the reality which pretty much every republican in the country grasps after the past two cycles – is that they will ALWAYS be denied close elections by Fraud. As with everything else – the standards for Republ;icans are different – higher.
              Republicans are going to have to win future elections by atleast a full percent of the vote – atleast in certain corrupt states.

              Nevada has likely gone red – probably permanently and it is unlikely the GOP will have to worry about Fraud there in the furture.
              Wisconsin remains a mess – but the WI SC is not as bad as the other problematic states they were not as bad in 2020, they were just too late.
              They have been more pro-active since. WI will still have problems but not as big as they were.
              MI and PA will with near certainty turn red over the long haul – like Ohio, but it is going to take time. They are not getting cleaned up any time soon. PA is by far the worst as it has a SC that is completely nuts and makes up new law as it pleases.

              Regardless, those will eventually shift.
              There are some states in the south that Republicans will likely lose eventually, but at the same time even thought the Red Tsunami did not materialize – Republicans were competitive in states they have not been competitive in for 30+ years.

              We are in the midst of a massive nationwide political realignment. That realignment is not moving as fast as it appeared to be a few days ago,
              but it is still happening. The political parties are shifting values and constituencies. Completely reversing their relationship to each other on many issues. That is going to cost Republicans some states and it is making them more competitive in others.

              And the more democrats fail – the worse it is for the country, but the more rapidly the realignment completes.

      2. “We now have TWO vegetables in the Federal Government.”

        That says a lot about the quality of Republican candidates. They couldn’t even beat that. Maybe it’s becaue vegetables have a higher IQ.

        1. The voting public’s decisions are not very good.

          If the public permits cheating
          If the public is brain dead like their leaders
          If the public is intimidated
          If the news and SM prevent both sides of the story from being heard.
          If the electorate doesn’t know policy and they vote based on ignorance.

          The public will face their own actions at the pump and as prices rise. They may face wars and their children getting killed abroad without good reason.

          People like you don’t even understand the reason for gas prices and inflation to rise. Your overtime might make up your deficit, but it is better if the overtime went into securing your future and improving your standard of living. Ignorance permits you to live in the dark, happy, while not realizing how you have been duped.

          1. Anonymous, people decide what they want to decide. Making excuses for not seeing what you wanted to happen is still just making excuses. I can sense your disappointment in your words. But that is simply reality that all the hype of the partisan rhetoric missed.

            “People like you don’t even understand the reason for gas prices and inflation to rise. ”

            Oh in understand just fine. I also understand that I have no control over it just as no politician does either. It’s much, much easier to point fingers and lay blame and offer no solutions. Republicans are good at that.

        2. No, it says alot about democrats.

          That Biden and Fetterman are the best you have.

          Whether Fetterman won a fair election is still debateable, just as Biden’s victory is.

          Whether any sane party should have run either is not.

          The fact that YOUR party would go to such incredible efforts to prop up vegetables. Is really damning.

          Regardless, with respect to this election Que Sera Sera. It is apparently going to take even larger failure to defeat the left wing nut elites propping up the brain dead.

          That is unfortunate for the country.

          Regardless, just as after 2020 – 2022 means YOU own the mess you are making – of the country, of the world.

          1. “ The fact that YOUR party would go to such incredible efforts to prop up vegetables. Is really damning.”

            You think it was just democrats who voted for Fetterman? LOL!

            Did you ever stop and think that Oz was so bad and undesirable that republicans also voted for Fetterman because Oz was THAT bad. What is interesting is that republicans didn’t bother to consider that there were a lot more younger voters this time around…a lot more. There was a record number of younger voters in this election and they DID make a difference. The younger crowd is more liberal than the older folks and they did make their presence known.

            Republicans voted for Trump who is less qualified than a vegetable. If you are surprised about Fetterman’s win because of his condition you should look in the mirror and ask yourself why Trump as able to get elected too. If a narcissistic idiot can get elected it shouldn’t be surprising that folks like Fetterman can too. Fetterman won fair and square. No amount of excuses will change that.

            1. I have no interest in your personal voter analysis.
              Oz is behind by just over 200K votes with 98% reporting.
              That is not some mass defention of either independents of republicans.

              That is not some massive red flight. Pennsylvania is has been a purple state for a my entire lifetime.
              It is made of a small number of very concentrated blue regions surrounded by a dark red ocean.
              It has also been very slowly shifting Red. The blue counties arround pittsburgh -0 except pittsburg itself are GONE – for good.
              The long term battle in PA is the “collar” counties arround Philadelphia. They keep shifting back and forth and they determine the outcome in PA.

              Eventually we will get batter demographic information on what actually happened – both in PA and elsewhere.
              I would note that Republicans did badly in some places better in others.
              They have lost a large number of high profile potential flips. But in EVERY SINGLE ONE they did better than previously.
              Several deep blue states are no longer deep blue. Prior to 2022 they were out of reach for republicans. But it is certain that in the future republicans will start to occasionally win state wide offices in these formerly deep blue states.

              Soon enough we will hear more detailed information.

              Was Abortion actually the deciding factor – if so that is a ONE TIME thing.
              It is crystal clear at this point that SCOTUS has kicked the issue back to the states – and the states – including many deep rad states are doing nothing about it – whether they like that or not.

              In 2024 it is unlikely to be an issue.

              Was it GOTV ? Despite the fact that Republicans have been growing their base all over the place – democrats are very successfully getting massive turnout – at very great cost BTW, that they have never been able to do before. The Youth vote has NEVER been reliable for democrats – it now appears to be. And that is ultimately a problem that will evntually lead to the self destruction of the democratic party.
              The woke left is a tiny portion of the country and the democratic party – they are very effectively alienating – litterally manufacturing republicans, but until a a large number of moderate Dems turn their back on these woke idiots The vountry will have very serious problems.
              They are driving policies across the country in stupid and evil ways and the woke – pretty much YOU have ZERO moral foundations.

              You keep ranting that Fraud is not real – I doubt anyone here believes that YOU would not personally commit large scale voter Fraud if you knew how and though you could get away with it. The people who locked the country down over Covid lies. Who lied about the Bidens who used government to censor 120M social media posts. Who weaponize government against political enemies – and on and on.
              Yes, the rest of us have no problems believing you would also commit massive fraud if you knew how.

              I look forward to seeing the minority data on this election. It will be interesting to see the extent to which Republicans have ACTUALLY continued to gain with minorties.

              1. “Ozs is behind by just over 200K votes with 98% reporting.”

                Philadelphia’s population is 1.600,000 in a state with 13 million. Irregularities in Philadelphia have been videos.

                There is a video of a drop box during nighttime on a dark street with keys on top of the boxes for anyone to take. Did those keys open the ballot box? Why did the official not seem to have any concerns?

                1. The RCP poll of polls had Oz at 0.4% ahead. That is 20K votes.

                  The real question is why did PA democrats pick someone who barely fogs glass.
                  If fetterman resigns or becomes incapacitated – isn’t he already ?
                  Shapiro gets to appoint a replacement who serves to the next election. 2023 ? 2024?
                  Then there is an election to fill the balance of his seat.

                  PA is going red SLOWLY – mostly because not only must a republican win – he must overcome Philadelphia fraud.

                  I am still trying to get information on the PA House and Senate elections – aparently D’s made small gains.

                  It is entirely possible that PA is one state where abortion mattered.

                  I am waiting for a post mortum – but I am told that a number of red states put abortion rights in their constitution.
                  Which suggests abortion was a factor in the election.

                  If so that is a one time thing. It is highly unlikely Abortion will be an election issue in the future.
                  GA is going to flip blue eventually, as probably will a couple of other southern states.
                  But the rust belt – including PA is going red.
                  There is almost no blue left in Western PA.

                  Johnson in WI was way closer than it should have been.
                  But that is not on Trump.

                  There is a chance Murkowski gets knocked out in AL She is behind but the election is RCV.

                  There are ALOT of undecided house seats that are within 1% and Republicans already have the house.

                  It cost democrats an enormous amount of money to pull this off – in most races republicans were outspent 2:1.

                  If abortion was a factor – it will not be next time.
                  Republicans won the popular vote by 5M votes.

                  I still do not know how many times Democrats can keep jumping the shark before moderates revolt.

            2. Of course Fetterman did not win fair and square – this is still Pennsylvanian.

              You keep ignoring that.

              You also keep wanting to rant over stupidity.

              This is simple – while Philadelpia is old school Democrat political machine corrupt and has been my entire lifetime.
              And mailin voting just puts all that on steroids.

              Ultimately that just delays the inevitable. PA like Ohio and FL will flip red.
              It will just take longer to get past the fraud.

              And the other lesson from 2020 2022 is that the fraud on the left is just a fact of life that Republicans will have to overcome.
              In certain specific states Republicans will have to win 50-200K more votes – depending on the state.
              Because fraud is self limiting.

              There is a probability that we will eventually get rid of mailin voting – probably nationwide.
              But that will not occur until Democrats get caught with the pants down buck naked engaged in fraud in ways that no one can deny.
              That is inevitable. But it will take time.

              It is also probable that Democratic fraud will grow – specifically because for so much of the woke left – like you, the ends justifies the means.
              If you beleive the ends justifies the means – you have no moral foundations. and you will be increasingly willing do to more and more so long as you think you can get away with it. And that eventually leads to that naked infront of the world moment.

              BTW that is not unique to election fraud – that is a core problem the left has. it is the lefts version of the Arthurian legends theme – man bears the seeds of his own destruction. You are guaranteed to go too far. One of the reasons that many expected a rid tsunami this year – is because many of us thought that a majority already believed you had. But we were wrong – the majority is not there yet.
              But they will be – YOU will guarantee that.

            3. I did not vote for Trump – ever.

              It is still true that he was objectively the best president in the 21st century.

              You can slander and malign him all you want.
              You can not change the FACT that Bush, Obama and obviously Biden are WORSE.

              We will eventually understand this election – but what is absolutely certain is that it was NOT because voters are happy with Biden or democrats.
              At best, they are just not unhappy enough YET.

              But guaranteed they will be.

            4. Yesterday in my county a young black mother was convicted of rioting. incitement and several other related charges. For actions in a BLM riot in my city that broke some windows on the police station and lit a dumpster on fire.

              I went to listen to this woman speak months ago – she ranted that she was not a rioter, that she just engaged in lawful protest, that the police were out to get her. And I would have sympathy for her – except that she had no problems ranting and raving and talking about jailing J6 protestors who did less than she did.

              This woman did NOT incite riot – though her rhetoric was far more violent than anything at J6.
              She did not engage in violence. She was foul mouthed in public, and like those at J6 she was protesting about an issue that this community disagrees with her.

              She will be sentenced shortly. She could easily end up with a sentence as severe as the worst J6 protestors.
              This county hands out harsh sentences.

              There is ZERO difference between her and J6 protestors. She organized the protest, she lead the protest, there was some vandalism and property damage, fortunately the police here did not murder any protestors. But otherwise this was J6 writ smaller.

              If you think she should get off, her First amendment rights are being violated, But J6 protestors got what they deserved – then you are lawless and immoral.

              I have contributed to her defense. It is near certain their will be an appeal on first amendment grounds – and she should win that appeal.
              So should nearly all the J6 protestors.

              If you do not understand that – you are lawless and immoral.

              I am not happy with my community over this. They are sending a message – albeit one that will go unheard and that will cost this woman her freedom, That two can play this weaponized politics game. That what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

              Regardless, either you treat her and J6 protestors the same – or you are lawless and dangerous.

              Ut us the left leading the weaponization of politics. I have no idea how long it lasts.
              But it will not end will – not for the left, not for the country.

              and it is YOUR lack of morality and lawlessness that is driving this.

              You keep trying to fixate on me – abysmally trying to prove I am wrong about things I am not.
              You want to convert me or silence me – you have neither the intellect, the facts, nor the moral basis to do either.

              But you are damaging yourself.

      3. RE:I am shocked that MI re-elected Whitman” The punch line to the joke question “Why are you banging your head against the wall like that?” is “Because it feels so good when I stop.” It appears that Michiganders have no desire to. Winter is coming.

    1. The margin is about 200K votes.

      Yet, we knew BEFORE the election that the PA SOS had dumped 250K illegal mailin ballots into the election.

      I am surprised by the results so far. Overall the polls appear to have been biased FOR republicans rather than democrats – which has not been the case for at the very least the past 3 cycles. Several Democrat wins so far though close – are outside the margin of Fraud.

      But the PA senate is not outside the domain of Fraud. And 200K+ fraudulent votes from Philadelphia is just a normal PA election.

      1. What 250k mail-in ballots are you referring to?

        As far as I know those that did not have a date on the outer envelope were segregated and not counted. Those that were correctly dated were counted as per law.

        1. The ones that the PA SOS admitted were improperly mailed out.
          Pay attention.

          Also where do you get the idea that the problems in PA devolve to a SINGLE issue.

          Mailin voting in PA is unconstitutional.

          But PA Act 77 does allow it. It was supposed to be limited, and the law REQUIRES that a voter Request a ballot, and the state them mail it to them.

          in 2020 PA mailed hundreds of thousands of ballots without requests.
          In 2022, the PA SOS was preparing to do the same, when she was stopped by a court order.
          But oops – the ballots were all sent out anyway.
          The SOS then claimed that they would just catch them as they were returned and throw them away – right !

          Requiring a ballot to be requested is Part of the requirements to meet PA’s Voter ID law – the approval of Act 77 was a part of a huge compromise between the Republican controlled PA legislature and the Wolf Administration. Democrats had successfully challenges PA’s voter ID for over a decade. They actually LOST every single challenge – but they managed to get TRO’s to stop it every single election anyway.

          In return for allowing limited and strictly controlled mailin Voting PA Democrats agree to cease challenging PA’s voter ID law AND to require demanding ID requirements for mailin ballots.

          They had to be requested, Voters had to provide ID to request a ballot.
          When returned signatures had to match, DL or State ID numbers had to match, last 4 of SS# had to match, the Date had to be prior to or the same as the post mark, and before election day. Ballots had to be delivered in person or mailed to the County election office.
          Further Act 77 included a non-severability clause – if the courts struck ANY of these requirements of the law, the entire law became null and void.

          Every single bit of the above and more was ingnored – with the impramatur of the PA SCOTUS in 2020.
          In 2022 we atleast managed to git the court to re-instate SOME of the anti-fraud measures – such as date verification.

          But once again hundreds of thousands of unsolicited ballots were mailed out.

          1. “The ones that the PA SOS admitted were improperly mailed out.
            Pay attention.”

            This election? Where is this admission you speak of? Do you have a link to the admission?

            “Mailin voting in PA is unconstitutional.

            But PA Act 77 does allow it. It was supposed to be limited, and the law REQUIRES that a voter Request a ballot, and the state them mail it to them.”

            It can’t be unconstitutional if the legislature a bipartisan agreement allowed it which is what’s the PA constitution allows so mail-in voting is constitutional.

            The majority of mail-in ballots were requested this year. In 2020 the request requirement was waived due to the pandemic. That is what PA act 77 allowed.

            Where did you get the info that the the PA SoS sent the ballots anyway?

            If act 77 hasn’t been repealed then it’s still in effect. It seems you acknowledge that at least.

            It seem everybody did everything right. It’s just the PA lawmakers that are being ignorant of how their own laws work.

            “Further Act 77 included a non-severability clause – if the courts struck ANY of these requirements of the law, the entire law became null and void.”

            Which part of the act did the PA SC was struck?

            1. Svelaz,

              YOU are CONSTANTLY completely wrong on just about everything you claim to be a FACT.

              I am not your tutor – regardless, you have FAILED to learn anything.

              We live in the information age. My assertions of fact are easily verifiable.
              Yours are easily falsified.

              We have been through all of this before.

              It has taken half a dozen posts before you are even on the right issue.

              I do not think it is possible for you to learn.
              It certainly not possible so long as I keep spoon feeding you.

              With respect to your other claims.

              There is no provision in ACT 77 or the PA constitution to Waive the requiremnts of Act 77.

              The PA SCOTUS acted lawlessly, the PA SOS has been acting lawlessly for years.
              As has Gov. Wolf.

              PA voters just amended the PA constitution TWICE to thwart this kind of nonsense.
              Of course the constitution is meaningless if the Supreme court refuses to follow it.

              Act 77 requires ballot requests IN PERSON – READ IT. It is not hard to find.
              READ THE WHOLE THING. I am not interested in your picking irrelevant bits out of context and pretending they apply.

              “It can’t be unconstitutional if the legislature a bipartisan agreement allowed it which is what’s the PA constitution allows so mail-in voting is constitutional.”
              False and stupid.
              Jim Crow laws were passed by legislatures, signed by governors, and blessed by state supreme courts.
              They are still unconstitutional.

              Mailin voting in PA – and any state that has a secret ballot requirement is unconstitutional
              And that is only ONE provision of the PA constitution that bars mailin elections.

              I would further note that Mailin elections are so bad an idea that for over 100 years no state or nation voted that way.
              For about a bit more than a decade a FEW US states – where fraud was uncommon and one party dominated, had not failed miserably.

              The fact that in edge cases mailin elections do not result in disaster is not an endorsement.

              Until 2020 Mailin voting was near non-existant in the US, and unconstitutional in most of the US.

              But paraphrasing Rahm emanual never miss the oportunity a crisis provides to really F#$k things up.
              The US is now [probably the only country in the world to utilize just about the worst and most dangerous means of conducting elections.

              I do not know how long it will take – but I can assure you – this like all left wing nut ideas – ENDS BADLY.

              There were idiotic claims in this election that Republicans intended to end medicare.

              The FACT is medicare is just another failed left wing nut ponzi scheme that will blow up in our faces soon enough.
              It does not take a brain surgeon to understand that.

              Though you do not.

              1. “ We live in the information age. My assertions of fact are easily verifiable.
                Yours are easily falsified.”

                It’s your claim. You don’t post a link or source to your claim. If it’s so easy why is it so hard for you to provide it. Obviously you read it somewhere in order to make the claim or did you just paraphrased it from something “similar”. When you make the assertion it’s incumbent upon you to provide the source of the assertion. Why is it so difficult for you to provide the source of YOUR assertions? Probably because you are not being completely honest about why you read. The amount of deflection you spew in order to avoid the simplest task is very telling.

                1. I do not owe you a link or anything else.

                  Once again you fail to grasp that over a long time here I have established my accuracy and credibility – YOU have not.

                  Credibility is something that is earned. I have, you have not.
                  I am not the one who sold the collusion delusion hoax.
                  Or the Hunter Biden laptop is Russian disinformation nonsense.
                  Or any of myriads of other left wing debunked conspiracy theories.

                  The text of the law is available to you.
                  The text of the PA SC decision is available to you.
                  The rules of statutory construction are available to you.
                  Guides on how to apply them are available to you.

                  The PA SC FAILED in the most basic way.
                  You do not disagree with me regarding what the strict literal meaning is.
                  I provided you with the rule of statutory construction regarding the word “the”
                  You are the one making claims you can not support.

                  And the PA SC clearly and deliberately misread and changed the law.
                  That is not in the power to do.

                  That is the rule of man, not law.
                  That is lawless.

                2. Which is it that you are having so much difficulty finding ?
                  PA Act 77?
                  The PA SC opinion ?
                  You constantly claim incorrectly to know these – I would hope that means you know how to find them !

                  The PA constitution ?
                  The cannons of statutory construction ?

                3. “We begin with the familiar canon of statutory construction that the starting point for interpreting a statute is the language of the statute itself. Absent a clearly expressed legislative intention to the contrary, that language must ordinarily be regarded as conclusive.”
                  US Supreme Court.

                4. What is it that you are unable to find ?
                  The law, the opinion. the rules of statutory construction, the PA constitution ?

                5. “When you make the assertion it’s incumbent upon you to provide the source of the assertion.”
                  Actually it is not – and YOU clearly do not beleive that – you repeatedly buy into the naked self serving and often obviously false assertions of so call “experts”.
                  Covid, Covid, Covid.

                  Regardless – the FACT which you accept in practice while denying above, is that the burden of proof for factual assertions rest on the least credible party – that is YOU always and inarguably – unless you get into a factual debate with GiGi and then I am not sure.

                  “Probably because you are not being completely honest about why you read.”
                  What does this even mean ? I read to be informed.
                  I pretty much avoid MSM outlets – except the rare instance in which they run a store that conflicts with their biases.
                  When WaPo or NYT runs something favoring conservatives – I place a fair amount of credence in it.
                  When Fox is favorable to the left I seek that out.
                  I spend alot of time reading Substack. I regularly follow Matt Taibi, Barri Weis, Glenn Greenwald, and lots of unknowns.
                  I read Turley, as well as Deschowitz.
                  I listen to some conservative and democratic comedians – when they are funny – not for information. Increasingly those on the left are flat.
                  I listen to significant numbers of documentaries on Youtube, or channels that are not right/left political. I like for the “experts” on Ukraine – who accurately predicted the current mess. I watch videos about the War from a variety of sources. I listen to videos and read editorials from experts on China and what is happening in China. I read and have read the works of great economists. Some Keynes,. Hayek, Coase, Friedman, Smith Buchanon, Barro, Sowell, most of the top ranked economists of the past century. I also read of listen to lessor lights – Christine Romer, Roubini, summers, many many others. Many of these are libertarianish, but some are keynesians. Sometimes they are wrong. But they are all very smart.
                  I have read, corresponded with and/or met Robert Reich, Lawrence Tribe, Lawrence Lessig, Bryan Stevenson, Elie Mystal.
                  I was once a member of the ACLU, I am a member of the Equal Justice Institute.

                  I am not a lawyer, but I have appeared in court pro se periodically for big and small matters. I have also represented business interests before ALJ’s for more than 4 decades, My wife is one of the top criminal appellate lawyers in PA. A Suma Graduate of Penn Law, persuing a masters in Restorative practices as the field she is pursuing as she retires. She commuted to UofP law school and that required me to function as her study partner both as she was in school and for the bar. She also clerked for a Federal Judge and came very close to a clerkship for a supreme court Feeder Judge.
                  Even today I function as one of the people she bounces law off of.

                  Professionally I am a registered architect in the State of Pennsylvania. I run a small due diligence business that had about a dozen employees until Sept. When I had to cut way back as the market is near dead. I ran the business, code, and computer end of a 55 Person family architectural practice for 20+ years. I am also a professional software developed – primarily working with embedded Linux, or bare metal systems. I have been published atleast half a dozen times. I have written editorials in trade journals. And I am one of a small number of people with a driver in the Linux Kernels Source. My real name is not a secret, and you can go to lxr and search for it.
                  Just as I have been an architect pretty much all my life – I have also been a software developer since HS. At various times one or the other has been my focus. I have been doing due dilligence on multimillion dollar properties for most of the past 6 years. But as the bottom has atleast temporarialy dropped out of that – I get 1 project a week right now. I personally did 300 last year. I am currently back doing embedded software.
                  I did defense work 2 decades ago and had a TS/SCI security clearance for several years. I am also a landlord owning two rental properties.
                  I should have started that earlier and own more.

                  I have 2 kids both adopted, one from China, one from Korea. Both are in college now. One studying computer science the other social work.

                  I am politically libertarian. I pretty much always have been though early in my life i dabbled in 70’s liberalism and Goldwater conservatism.I primarily vote for libertarains, but sometimes republicans and sometimes democrats. Though not much since democrats have gone Batschiff crazy.

                  That is a SMALL picture of who I am, what I read, ….

                  What more do you want to know ? My SAT’s ? My IQ ? …..

                  All of the above DOES NOT MATTER.

                  In an argument what matters is the facts and logic of your writing.

              2. John, it seems it is YOU who is not leaning anything,

                “ Act 77 requires ballot requests IN PERSON – READ IT. It is not hard to find.
                READ THE WHOLE THING. I am not interested in your picking irrelevant bits out of context and pretending they apply.”

                WRONG. Act 77 says no such thing. Since you cannot show exactly where in the act what section it’s in it’s obvious you are not being honest about what you are claiming. I did YOUR homework for you.

                That requirement is spelled out in 1937 act 320.

                “ Section 1302-D. Applications for official mail-in ballots.
                (a) General rule.–A qualified elector under section 1301-D may apply at any time before any primary or election for an official mail-in ballot in person or on any official county board of election form addressed to the Secretary of the Commonwealth or the county board of election of the county in which the qualified elector’s voting residence is located.”

                https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&yr=1937&sessInd=0&smthLwInd=0&act=320&chpt=13D

                Ballots requests may be made in person OR on any official county board of election form ADDRESSED to the Secretary of the Commonwealth OR the county Clare of election of the county which the qualified elector’s residence. The part where it says ADDRESSED means that it is MAILED to the office. It does NOT say that the person SHALL ONLY make the request in person. You are wrong.

                Further on that requirement,

                “ The Secretary of the Commonwealth may develop an electronic system through which all qualified electors may apply for a mail-in ballot and request permanent mail-in voter status under this section, provided the system is able to capture a digitized or electronic signature of the applicant. A county board of elections shall treat an application or request received through the electronic system as if the application or request had been submitted on a paper form or any other format used by the county.”

                This means that voters requesting a mail-in ballot do not have to request it in person. It can be done by applying on an official website with an electronic signature.

                This is why you didn’t want to be more specific with our sources because you didn’t read the whole act 77 as you claim.

                1. While the section you cited is NOT the best section. That is irrelevant – because even it confirms what I have said.

                  Regardless READ Act 77.

                  There are different provisions for the initial application, and for subsequent mailin ballot applications.
                  Because the FIRST time you apply to vote by Mail – you MUST provide Valid Voter ID and a signature.

                  I would further not – that even YOU read is completely at odds with what has occured – both in 2020 and 2022.

                  I would note that the Finally by late Thursday PA has counted all but 125K ballots – and Fetterman’s lead is still inside the likely margin of democrat Fraud in PA. He must not have done as well as I expected on the 250K ballots that were counted today.

                  I beleive Oz has conceded, There will be no investigation.
                  But anyone that would trust an election in PA that a democrat statewide won by only 200K votes is an idiot.
                  That is the standard PA margin of Fraud. I think Philadephia was good for that number of votes prior to the unconstitutional mailin voting.

                  1. “ While the section you cited is NOT the best section. That is irrelevant – because even it confirms what I have said.”

                    No it doesn’t. Because you said that to apply for a mail-in ballot ONLY, ONLY you can apply in person. You were clearly wrong. It’s “not the best section”? It’s the ONLY section that specifically lays out EXACTLY what is required to apply and HOW you can apply. It’s very relevant to your false claim John. The rest of your deflecting rant was irrelevant.

                    1. Please actually read the law – you are full of schiif.

                      And it is absolutely positively NOT my job to spoon feed you.

                      BTW the nonsense you were spouting about PA law makers do not undersant and the 250k ballots illegal ballots is absolutely nonsense.

                      The Deputy PA Sec State Testified to the PA legislature that PA had mailed out 250K+ ballots without a request from a voter, and without having Voter ID. That was Confirmed Multiple times – because legislatures were shocked by it.

                      There was subsequently a “fight” over what to do about it.
                      The PA SOS originally sent advice to election boards that said – ignore the problem, do not both to look for illegal ballots.
                      Then under pressure the SOS advised Election officials to look for the 250K illegal ballots and separate them.

                      But we do not actually know that was ever done.

                      One of the reasons that PA was able to process mailin and early votes quicker than AZ – is because PA election officials to a large extent did NOT go through the same step by step process to check for illegal duplicate, fraudulent ballots that AZ is doing in 2022.

                      It is very easy to process mailin ballots rapidly if you just rip the envelopes open and send the ballots to be counted.

                      Of Course AZ has a separate huge problem – the AZ SOS is also the Democrat candidate for the AZ governor.
                      You can not have a larger conflict of interest.

                      While that is not proof of fraud.
                      It is unethical.

                      But those on the left do not care about ethics.

              3. “ apply.

                “It can’t be unconstitutional if the legislature a bipartisan agreement allowed it which is what’s the PA constitution allows so mail-in voting is constitutional.”
                False and stupid.”

                Nope.

                The PA Supreme Court noted that if the legislature didn’t want mail-in voting to be legal they would have repealed act 77. That’s all they have to do. Since it hasn’t been repealed the act is still in force. That’s why mail-in voting in PA is constitutional. it’s the legislature that needs to do it’s job if it doesn’t want mail-in voting to be legal. Their point is pretty straightforward. You make this point all the time. ( paraphrasing) “if you don’t like the law, change it.” Right?

                “ I would further note that Mailin elections are so bad an idea that for over 100 years no state or nation voted that way.”

                That’s because it wasn’t as necessary back then. There wasn’t such a need and wasn’t feasible. Now it is.

                “ Until 2020 Mailin voting was near non-existant in the US, and unconstitutional in most of the US.”

                LOL!! Seven states have had the majority of their elections by mail for decades before 2020. In Oregon the entire state votes by mail.

                Your whining about me not being correct rings pretty hollow when you can’t get your own facts straight. You’re just a more sophisticated version of S. Meyer, but with the same kind of ignorance.

                1. ““It can’t be unconstitutional if the legislature a bipartisan agreement allowed it which is what’s the PA constitution allows so mail-in voting is constitutional.”
                  False and stupid.”
                  Nope.”
                  If the legislature and governor passed a law that said fridays are a free kill day would that be constitutional ?

                  You remain as ever an idiot – a bipartisan agreement does not circumvent the constitution.

                  “The PA Supreme Court noted that if the legislature didn’t want mail-in voting to be legal they would have repealed act 77. That’s all they have to do. Since it hasn’t been repealed the act is still in force. That’s why mail-in voting in PA is constitutional. it’s the legislature that needs to do it’s job if it doesn’t want mail-in voting to be legal. Their point is pretty straightforward. You make this point all the time. ( paraphrasing) “if you don’t like the law, change it.” Right?”
                  The PA constitution permits only two forms of voting – in person secret ballot voting on election day,
                  And absentee voting for cause at the county election offices.

                  Again the rules of statutory construct specific that when a law (or constitution ) authorizes specific things, it also disallows all other alternatives.
                  That is ONE of 3 or 4 ways mailin voting violates the PA constitution.

                  Neither the legislature, nor the governor, nor the supreme court has the authority to go arround the constitution.
                  “if you don’t like the constitution, change it.

                  § 4. Method of elections; secrecy in voting.
                  All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot or by such other method as may be prescribed by law: Provided, That secrecy in voting be preserved.

                  (Nov. 5, 1901, P.L.882, J.R.2)

                  Requirements for secret ballots
                  an official ballot being printed at public expense,
                  on which the names of the nominated candidates of all parties and all proposals appear,
                  being distributed only at the polling place and
                  being marked in secret.

                  § 14. Absentee voting.

                  (a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the municipality of their residence, because their duties, occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their proper polling places because of illness or physical disability or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for the return and canvass of their votes in the election district in which they respectively reside.

                  The above are the only two methods of voting the PA constitution allows.
                  I would note Absentee voting is Only for those unable to appear at the polls on election day.
                  Voting must be done on election day.
                  Further when there is a list as above – those are the ONLY reasons one can vote absentee.

                  “That’s because it wasn’t as necessary back then. There wasn’t such a need and wasn’t feasible. Now it is.”
                  There is no need anymore today than ever before. That is complete idiocy.
                  We required secret ballots in most of the country over 100 years ago BECAUSE of fraud.
                  Mailin voting provides exactly the same oportunities for fraud as exited in the 19th century when buying or coercing votes was routine.
                  If the elector has unsupervised possession of a ballot outside the polls or county election office – the opportunity for coercion or inducement is present. You will ultimately get it.

                  But the biggest problem is the receipt by election officials of mailin ballots.
                  You noted the PA ballot tracing system – what you failed to note is that is tracing for the voter – NOT for the state.
                  PA and most states who recently adopted mailin voting DO NOT do significant checking of received ballots.
                  We just noted that Philadelphia announced that the 2022 election might take days because they just now decided to check received mailin ballots against in person ballots. We know from the AZ audit that AZ did not check received ballots against in person ballots.
                  We also know that most states do not check received ballots against other received ballots – so it is possible to recieve multiple mailin ballots purportedly from the same person. Further they do not check received ballots against requested ballots – again we know this from the AZ audit as well as real world experience in CA. This means that it is trivial for someone with a voter registration list to inject ballots.

                  Some of the states you cite with long experience with mailin voting – particularly those with ONLY mailin voting MAY be slightly better at this.
                  Of course none of those states have had close elections in a long time.
                  As I said before Fraud is unlikely with close elections.

                  PA did badly in 2022 – though not nearly as badly as 2020.
                  But AZ is in the midst of an absolute disaster right now They have hundreds of thousands of ballots left to count – and a printing error resulted in an enormous number of ballots that can not be scanned Apparently 2 people are counting these – by hand.

                  We have house races across the country that still have not been counted. Many in CA have only been 40% counted so far.
                  A large number of these have razor thin margins – again the likely targets for Fraud.

                  Interestingly though it is not showing up so far as large gains in house seats – Republicans nationwide have beat democrats by 5M+ votes or 5.6% of the vote. That is almost double what RCP was predicting.

                  You can rant and claim this election was fraud free – but it has had MASSIVE errors – so far WORSE than 2020. And errors enable fraud.

            2. Which part of Act 77 was struck ?

              The PA Scotus modified just about every single provision subject to the nonseverability clause.

              So that you understand the nonseverability clase means
              ANY change to those provisions – results in the entire law self repealing.
              Just allowing ballot drop boxes – which are not in the law at all and at odds with the requirement that mailin ballots be delivered to THE county election office” causes the whole law to self repeal.

              And please no more of this idiotic claim that the PA house and Senate accidentally wrote a law that means something radically different than it says.

              This is PRECISELY what is wrong with the left and the PA SCOTUS.

              If you have to be clearer than “Ballots must be delivered to the county election office”, then it is not possible to craft a law that the supreme court can not radically change.

              That is the defintiion of the rule of man not law.

              The courts powers are simple – take the law as written, or find it unconstitutional.
              Courts have no power to rewrite laws.
              That is a violation of separation of powers.
              And it is an irrepairable breach of the rule of law.

              1. “ Which part of Act 77 was struck ?

                The PA Scotus modified just about every single provision subject to the nonseverability clause.”

                Obviously you are being obtuse here. You are contorting yourself into a pretzel in order to justify your irrational interpretation of what you want it to mean.

                “ If you have to be clearer than “Ballots must be delivered to the county election office”, then it is not possible to craft a law that the supreme court can not radically change.”

                John you don’t get it. What they did interpret correctly was the intent behind the phrase “county election office”. The court showed that the context of that phrase did NOT mean the actual physical building. They provided ample evidence of why their interpretation is correct and multiple examples of why that phrase was not just the literal “office”.
                The phrase’s context was no different than using the “office of the president” when mentioning the body of the organization. For example “the office of the president has issued guidance on a rule of whatever”. You are arguing that the phrase should be a strict literal meaning, but to interpret it that way would not make sense because the office an inanimate object that cannot speak.

                The court correctly interpreted the phrase to mean that the body, the organization (the county election office) CAN provide a ballot box as it is PART of the county election office. Your biggest problem is that you want to read the law in the strictest literal terms and that is NOT how the law’s context and intent behind it’s wording meant. This is why you are so wrong on that and why the PA Supreme Court showed exactly why that literal interpretation was not correct.

                They didn’t change anything. They just interpreted according to the simple rules of reading comprehension.

                1. What is this a test to see how many sophisticated words that you do not understand you can use ?

                  This argument is over – you LOST.

                  Read the law,
                  Read the PA SC decision.
                  You can not reconcile them without claiming that PA SC can ignore the law as written can make up whatever law it wants.
                  For now, it can, but that is lawless and immoral, and it will end, just not soon enough.

                  It may end with the right storming the Bastile. More likely it ends with the left jumping the shark one too many times.

                  The reason many of us expected a red tsunami – is that we thought you had finally done that. Finally gone too far for ordinary people.

                  We underestimated the tolerance of democrats for the immoral and bad conduct of the left.
                  All that does is means the country has do endure more failure until ordinary democrats reach that threshold.

                  Many of us though YOU had moved that needle that far already – looks like it was only half that far.
                  Republicans will with near certainty lose GA and one or two other southern states in a couple of elections cycles.
                  Just as the rust belt aside from Illinois will turn red.
                  But 2022 did reveal that a substantial amount of deep blue turf is now in play.

                2. From the cannons of statutory construction on how to understand “the

                  “As in common usage, a drafter’s choice between the definite and indefinite article can affect meaning. “The definite article ‘the’ particularizes the subject which it precedes. It is a word of limitation as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of ‘a’ or ‘an.'”

                  Repeating “the” particularizes” – the opposite of what you claim. “the” is a word of limitation, not a word of generalization so as “a” or “an”

                  The authors of Act 77 – as well as the lawyers in the PA house and senate were well aware of the rules of statutory construction.
                  Just as courts are bound to follow them in reaching the meaning of the law.
                  Law makers follow them to assure that the courts reach the meaning the legislators intended.

                  Failure to do so is the rule of man, not law.

                  You are not merely wrong – just as the PA SC is.

                  But you are just making up arguments out of thin air that at at odds, with reality and the law.

                3. The context of a phrase in the law is first and foremost and often ONLY, the text of the law itself.

                  If as you claim I am doing the law can be read in the strictest literal terms, and that reading does not create a conflict with the remainder of the text of the law – then THAT strictest literal meaning is the ONLY correct meaning.

                  Again rules of statutory construction.

                  You can read them – or keep making a fool of yourself.

                  “This is why you are so wrong on that and why the PA Supreme Court showed exactly why that literal interpretation was not correct.”
                  The strictest literal meaning is not merely correct, it is the ONLY correct meaning so long as that reading is not in conflict with the rest of the text of the law. Again – rules of statutory construction.

                  “They didn’t change anything. They just interpreted according to the simple rules of reading comprehension.”
                  Triply false.

                  They did change the law.
                  They did not follow the rules of simple reading comprehension.
                  Those are not the rules that apply regardless – the cannons of statutory construction are.

                  BTW the cannons of statutory construction are the legal formalized rules of “reading comprehension”

                  I would note we are also dealing with the most FUNDIMENTAL rules of statutory construction – There are dozens – possibly hundreds of rules.
                  Many of them only apply to very narrow cases. The rules go from general to specific.
                  It the strictest literal meaning of a part of the text results in a meaning that is not in conflict with the rest of the text – that IS the only meaning.
                  You do not go further.

        2. The date issue is separate.

          The good news PROBABLY is that will fizzle – atleast for this election.
          The law does not require them to be segrated – it requires them to be completely invalidated – destroyed.

          There is a reason for that.
          They ended up getting counted in 2020.
          In a 2021 Judicial race PA had the same problem – the courts ordered them segregated and not counted.
          The election was extremely close.
          The country election commission on their own opened and counted the segregated undated ballots
          and the election flipped.
          When this went to the courts – the court said “bad county election commission” but allowed the results – the issue was “moot” because the invalid ballots could not be uncounted.

          You really do not understand the reasons for election laws.

          38 states int he US have secret ballot requirements in their constitution.
          This is one of the most fundimental protections we have against coercion and inducement in elections.
          These provisions came about specifically because of how corrupt 19th century elections were.
          Most countries in the WORLD require secret ballots.
          Mailin voting CAN NOT meet the requirements of secret ballots.
          One of which is that you vote ALONE without anyone ever being able to determine how you voted.

          Regardless, whether in person or absentee or any other form of voting, secret ballot requirements mean that once a Ballot leaves the voters hands or is removed from the envelope, there can not be any way from that point on to tie that ballot back to the voter.

          That means if invalid mailin ballots are removed from their envelopes rather than destroyed they MUST be counted – fraudulent or not.

          This applies not just to dates, but signature matches, late receipts, ANY problem with a mail in ballot.

          When you vote in person EVERY problem is resolved at the poll.
          There is no date issue – you are present on election day.
          Your ID is checked, your residence is checked, your presence on the voter rolls is check, your signature is checked

          All BEFORE you get a ballot. If there is a problem – YOU can resolve it, and then get your ballot.

          With mailin ballots there is not (or should not) be any means to correct errors. YOU are not there.
          No election official is going to take your mailing ballot envelope to your home to correct whatever the problem is.

          In fact the only means that election officials have of knowing that the ballot is not fraudulent is the date, the signature, the DL # and the fact that YOU requested the ballot.

          If you are unable to see how easy mailin ballots make fraud – you are a moron.

          In fact mailin voting makes Fraud by election officials easier.

          Every single state that Trump challenged in 2020 had a couple of hundred thousand ballots that had no chain of custody – we have no idea where they came from. These could be errors, but they also could be election officials injecting fraudulent ballots.

          That is much harder with in person voting – because ballots never leave the control of election officials.
          Therefore nearly all problems with ballots MUST be fraud by election officials.

          1. So the entire premise of your argument is what it has always been. That an absence of evidence is evidence. That a lack of evidence MUST be evidence of fraud or anything else you suspect. It’s pretty stupid.

            Mail-in voting is just as safe as in person voting. There’s only one ballot going to the address of a registered voter. Secret ballot issues? If the ballot mailed how is it different than using an absentee ballot. The post office is responsible for delivering those ballots and you are suggesting that somehow someway there is a vast network of people conspiring to commit fraud because they know how those ballots are for or some other silly BS. All these measures upon measures to make sure the person is deliberately made complicated. Like the dating issue. To put the date inside and outside the envelope and to put it in black ink or blue ink or some special ink or whatever. These measure are designed to make it easier to reject ballots than to accept them and that is the point.

            The PA claims of 200k ballots being illegal because they are not valid is not true because those PA lawmakers clearly did not understand how their own state ID verification system works.

            1. Svelaz;

              Please learn to READ.
              I have provided you with LOTS of evidence.

              Though I would note that Philadelphia election machinery has been so corrupt for so long – it is just a given that 200K of fraudulent votes will come from Philadelphia.

              Regardless. you can not keep the arguments straight.
              You confuse undated and unsigned ballots, with improperly mailed ballots
              TWO independent issues both leading to potential fraud.

              You also use as sources the very people engaged in the fraud.

              Regardless, I am not going to hold your hand.
              As it stands now Fetterman’s victory in PA is likely the result of Fraud in PA.
              It is possible – even likely given that 300K of ballots remain uncounted and these are all likely mailin ballots from Philadelphia that Fetterman may eak out a victory larger than PA’s historic margin of fraud. It is probably that 70% of the remaining ballots are for Fetterman.

              But please stop spewing nonsense about things you clearly know nothing about.

              It is tedious correcting every single stupid and confused claim you make OVER AND OVER.

              And then having to do it over again – when a few days or sometimes minutes later you repeat the same garbage as if it is once again new.

              PA elections are corrupt, the have been so my entire life. Long before mailin voting made PA voter fraud trivial, one could expect large fraud in Philadelphia to tip any close election. In the past there was a small advantage – because the fraudsters in Philly never knew exactly how much fraud was necescary to win. Mailin voting assures that they will.

              I would suggest actually becoming informed about voting and voting fraud.
              It is not as if it emerged suddenly in 2020.

              Go back past 2016 and you can find nearly EVERYONE – in both parties discussing the KNOWN fraud problems with mailin voting.

              You can also find people – from both parties discussing the other avenues for election fraud.

              I beleive you tried to make claims regarding voting terminals – which MOSTLY we have managed to get rid of.

              Those were the result of the disasterous 2000 election. The good news is we got rid of all kinds of bad ways to vote.
              The bad news was that adding voting terminals and computers makes voting less transparent and destroy’s trust.

              I am an embedded software expert. I can tell you exactly how to create a voting terminal that is fraud proof.
              Not that politicians would every do so.
              But I can not create one that is transparent – unless it is merely used to print a paper ballot.

              You can not make a voting terminal that is transparent and trustworthy.

              You want people to trust elections – and if you do not you are a moron.

              A valid social contract requires that citizens trust the results of elections.
              Those conducting the election must EARN that trust.
              You can not say “trust me because you can trust me” – that does not work.

              You can rant and rave over “election denial” all you want, but all that election denial is, is a symptom that way too many people do not trust elections.

              That is not their fault – that is YOURS.

              It is not all that hard to conduct elections that can be trusted.
              The most important requirement is transparency.
              Almost equally important is simple processes that when conducted transparently assure people there is no fraud.
              Next would be – near zero tolerance for errors.

              You claim there are 7600 ballots without valid dates – I doubt that, but it does not matter.
              Those should be easy to deal with SHRED them. That is what you MUST do if you want trust.
              What you do NOT do is go to court repeatedly to fight to do something that is obviously a vector for fraud.
              That sends the clear message that you want to win at any cost. That integrity does not matter to you.

              I was shocked with the Philadephia election commission announced monday that it would take days, possibly weeks to count the 2022 ballots – because they were going to make sure that no mailin ballots for anyone who voted in person would be counted, and that is hard.

              It is not actually hard. I can think of dozens of ways to do it. The easiest of which is check each person who shows up at the polls against the mailin ballots received. Though the easiest way is get rid of mailin voting.
              You do not have these problems if there is only one way for people to vote on one day.

              But more disturbing – though already known was that they had not done so before.
              About 7M people voted in PA in 2020 about half in person and half by mail and there was ZERO checking that someone did not vote twice – once by mail and once in person. In fact there was ZERO checking that people did not vote multiple times by mail.

              And I would note that it is unlikely the Philadelphia 2022 election checked for multiple voting by mailin ballot.

              But in 2022 Philadephia did decide – oops maybe we should check that a mailin voted did not also vote in person this time.

              Why was such a decision needed ?

              And if that is so hard – get rid of mailin voting.

              I would also note that it is hard because you have centralized voting. My precinct processes and counts a few thousand ballots every election.
              It is easy for them to check ID for each one. It is easy for them to check whetehr someone has voted multiple times – there are only a few thousand voters to check. All the inperson ballots and all the mailin ballots for my precinct amount to just a few thousand.

              Philadelphia does not count precinct by precinct. elections are big business is Philadelphia and the more centralized they are the easier it is to profit or graft from the election independent of fraud. Philadelpia processes nearly a million ballots, from the whole city – not from individual precincts. Again, that is a structure designed to make fraud easier.

              My precinct probably only has 7-8000 eligable voters. How much Fraud could my local election officials get away with ?
              A thousand votes and they would be caught for sure.

              Philadephia has a bit under 3M people – a couple of hundred thousand fraudulent votes is a peice of cake.

              As I said it is easy to design a system that is trustworthy if you want to.

              Process and count ballots at local precincts. with only a few thousand voters at each.
              Small fraud is a bit easier – but large scale fraud is near impossible.

              Regardless, it is possible – even easy to have trustworthy elections if we wanted.

              Democrats do not want them.
              That speaks volumes.

            2. “Mail-in voting is just as safe as in person voting.”
              False and only a moron would say that.

              FIRST, the moment you can have a marked ballot outside of a polling place in the hands of a voter – they can be coerced or induced into voting as you want. In the 19th century it was common place for voters to pick up blank ballots fill them out and drop them into ballot boxes.
              Voters were told by union bosses, employers, political machines, army officers how to vote and penalized if they did not do so.
              Most of the time voters could pick up prefilled out ballots from their employer, union political party and often got paid for depositing that ballot.
              2/3 of the cost of elections in 1890 was paying voters.

              Mailin voting makes that possible again.
              We know that atleast some people in Ilhan Omar’s district were getting paid $300/filled in ballot in 2020.
              We know that ballot harvestors were getting paid $10/ballot – just to drop harvested ballots into drop boxes in 2020.
              We have no idea how many wives are blackmailing the husbands or kids or visa versa with mailin voting.

              Next – on average 20% over the names on voter regristration databases are bogus. Dead, moved, fictitious.
              In LA alone there are over a million bogus names on the voter registration rolls.
              Again though federal and often state law requires cleaning up voter registation databases, democrats accross the country have fought tooth and nail against doing that for 20 years.
              Voter registration databases are near useless. I have already said we should elminate them entirely and switch to voter ID only.
              But neither party will like that as it lets anyone vote in either parites primary.
              Regardless, the FACT that you do not understand how bad voter registration databases are just proves how poorly informed you are.

              “Secret ballot issues?”
              This is the definition of a secret ballot.

              an official ballot being printed at public expense,
              on which the names of the nominated candidates of all parties and all proposals appear,
              being distributed only at the polling place and
              being marked in secret.

              You can not do that by mail. Pretending otherwise is again just stupidity.

              “if the ballot mailed how is it different than using an absentee ballot.”
              When you vote absentee – you go to the courthouse, you provide voter ID, they give you a ballot, you fill it out in the courthouse,
              you place it in an envelope, and that envelope in another envelope, and you sign, date and fill out your DL on the outer envelope.
              If you vote absentee in a foreign country or in the military – you go to a consulate or some military voting office, and follow nearly the same process.

              Real absentee ballots NEVER go in the mail.

              “The post office is responsible for delivering those ballots and you are suggesting that somehow someway there is a vast network of people conspiring to commit fraud because they know how those ballots are for or some other silly BS.”
              Once ballots are out in public – anyone with access tot he voter registration databases – which are public.
              Can print their own ballots, and envelopes – or steal them fill out ballots for names int he voter registration database. and drop them in the mail.
              Few states in 2020 or 2021 did anything to prevent that except say “don’t do that its illegal”.

              Worse still – you can produce hundreds of thousands of fruadulent ballots this way with a very small number of people and never get caught.

              Give me a couple of thousand dollars and I can inject 100K ballots into any election and you will not be able to tell they are fraudulent.
              And the only people who will know is me and whoever paid me.

              “All these measures upon measures to make sure the person is deliberately made complicated.”
              Actually not they are not. Nor are they sufficient. As I noted before Philadelphia announced on monday they had decided to check mailin ballots against in person ones to prevent people from voting by mail and in person. They did not do that in 2020, pretty much nobody did.
              Nor was there checking that the same person did not vote by mail multiple times.
              We know from the AZ audit that pretty mcuh every single “measure upon measure” was compromised.
              AZ had thousands and thousands of ballots that were photocopied. Once you allow photocopied ballots – you have destroyed a major antifraud measure. We know from the AZ audit that no effort was made to check if mailin voters also voted in person.

              “Like the dating issue. To put the date inside and outside the envelope and to put it in black ink or blue ink or some special ink or whatever. These measure are designed to make it easier to reject ballots than to accept them and that is the point.”
              And which of these measures is it that you think actually prevent fraud ?

              Are you really this stupid ?

              “The PA claims of 200k ballots being illegal because they are not valid is not true because those PA lawmakers clearly did not understand how their own state ID verification system works.”
              This has nothing to do with lawmakers or Voter ID.
              the PA SOS mailed out 200K+ ballots that were not requested – that violated PA laws.

              While this had nothing to do with lawmakers – your claim is absolute idiocy.
              The lawmakers WROTE the law. They know what it says. They know the legislatiuve history. The PA SOS did not write the law. The PA SCOTUS did not write the law.

              The rules of statutory construction forbid courts from changing the law.
              They are supposed to follow a set of rules to read the law as written.

              The constitution makes the writing of laws the duty of the legislature. Not the executive, or the courts.

              Why does this have to be repeated to you over and over ?

              Why is it so hard for you to understand that not only is it this way – it MUST be this way.

              If the executive, and the courts can essentially rewrite laws willy nilly – we have the rule of man not law.
              We have chaos, we have lawlessness. No one can actually know what the law is.
              The same law can be read differently from court to court, from SOS to SOS.

              Which is exactly what we saw in 2020, and still in 2022.
              That always ends badly.

              There is no question that if you continue larg scale mailin voting you WILL eventually have a close election turned by fraud that get CAUGHT.
              It may take a while to catch fraud, but it will happen.
              And the consequences will be disasterous.

              You think J6 was bad – left right, it does not matter. When large scale fraud is finally caught – voters are justifiably coming after you with pitch forks.

              This is a losing bet.

          2. “Every single state that Trump challenged in 2020 had a couple of hundred thousand ballots that had no chain of custody – we have no idea where they came from. These could be errors, but they also could be election officials injecting fraudulent ballots.”

            There are multiple measures in place to prevent that and they have been used for years. You seem to think that mail-in ballots are devoid of any measures or procedures to prevent what you claim. PA even has it’s own dedicated mail-in ballot tracking that voters can use to keep track of their ballots and it shows that the state is always aware of where these ballots are if they have a ballot tracking option.

            “Pennsylvania voters who use a mail-in or absentee ballot can track their ballot’s status on the PA Voter Services website. Voters can fill in their full name, date of birth, and the county they’re registered to vote in to see a timeline for their ballot. The website will show the following steps your ballot has followed:

            Date of when the ballot application was received
            Date of when the application was processed
            Date of when the ballot was mailed
            Date of when the ballot was received by the county.
            The website will then show a status that will show the last known status of where the ballot request stands.

            Once the ballot is received, the website will say your vote is “recorded.” According to the Department of State, this means your ballot is received.“

            Here’s the PA site where PA voters can keep track of their ballots.

            https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/BallotTracking.aspx

            Each state has its own chain of custody procedures and mail-in voting is no exception.

            1. “There are multiple measures in place to prevent that and they have been used for years. ”
              There are and in 2020, tdemocratic governors, Lawyers, like Elias Democrat and some republic SOS’s and Various courts DESTROYED those procedures. You seem to forget that.

              “You seem to think that mail-in ballots are devoid of any measures or procedures to prevent what you claim. ”
              Several of the things I claimed CAN NOT be prevented by procedures.

              regardless, your claiming that procedures exist is completely irrelevant if they are not followed, or if they are followed some places and not others, and there are no consequences when they are not followed.

              I have told you that Every single swing state had hundreds of thousands of ballots without chain of custody information.
              PA in specific NEVER was able to reconcile the number of ballots against the number of voters for 2020 – the error was close to 300K,
              And nothing EVER came of it.

              You talk all the time about the lawsuits that were lost, or the lawsuits that were won – and then want to ignore that following all these proceudres you claim are rigidly adhered to is the CORE to all of those lawsuits.

              Democratic lawyers Like Marc Elias fought – and frequently won lawsuits to obliterate those procedures.
              Even in 2022 – right her were are discussing multiple lawsuits by democrats to try to get undated or incorrectly dated ballots counted.
              Even today – democrats, the left, governors, SOS’s are still fighting – and often winning to obliterate or ignore the very procedures you think protect mailin voting.

              I would further note that in 2020 – most of the precedures regarding mailin voting were just made up on the fly.
              Only a few states had mailin voting prior to the pandemic. They had no procedures in place.

              You talk about PA’s ballot tracker – exactly how is it that you think that protects the election from fraud ?
              It doesn’t. No the PA state system does NOT show that the state is tracking all ballots.
              It only shows that there is SOME tracking of ballots that were properly requested.

              The PA ballot tracking system was NOT ever reconciled against received ballots.
              If it had been you would be able to explain why the number of voters and the number of ballots are off by so much.

              You do not seem to realize – I an all the rest of us were THERE in PA in 2020 – You can not just make things up and pretend that is what happened.

              So lets make it clear – PA specifically – and most states more generally NEVER reconciled the number of voters in 2020 against the number of ballots counted – and the error in each of the swing states was more than 200K each.

              This does not inherently mean fraud – though at that scale it likely does. But what it does PROVE is that the checks and processes you claim were there WEREN:T

              The Phila Election Commision – just a few days ago boldly announced their NEW policy to check received mailin ballots against in person votes.
              That did not occur in 2020. Nor did PA or any of the other key states check mailin ballots against each other.

              I have repeatedly pointed out to you that the AZ audit found almost 50K duplicate mailin ballots – These were COUNTED.
              You keep ignoring that – it was one of the smaller findings of the AZ audit.

              Also from the AZ audit is the FACT that various precincts in Maricopa county ran out of official ballots and started photocopying ballots.
              That completely destroyed any ability to check for conterfeit ballots.

              The AZ audit also found that nearly half the chain of custody information was missing or completely in error.
              Batches of ballots frequently had the wrong batch numbers, the number of ballots in each batch did even come close to the recorded information.

              But you pretend these things did not happen.

              If you were following the “rule of law” there would be consequences for these problems – there were not.

              I noted specifically that in PA in 2021 – a Judicial election flipped when a lower court order the counting of segregated undated ballots, an appeals court overturned the decision as a matter of law, but allowed the new count to be used – because in a secret ballot election, once a ballot is removed from its outer envelope and enters the count – it can not be removed.

            2. Oh, and Back the the PA ballot tracking system. It tracks mailed envelopes – not ballots.
              Tracking ballots is illegal and unconstitutional in every state with a secret ballot constitutional or legal requirement.

              Secret ballots systems REQUIRE that there is no way to trace a ballot back to the voter.
              And we want it that way. But that absolutely requires that you destroy every single ballot that has any deviation from procedures at all.

              But you are completely clueless.
              You keep citing nonsense that has no meaning with respect to the opportunity for election fraud.

              As I noted before PA (nor any of the swing states) does not reconcile received mailin ballots against in person ballots – though the law requires that, it did not occur in 2020, and only occured in Philadelphia at the last minute in 2022. This is not some secret or right wing conspiracy – it is right out there in the news – if you pay any attention.

              As noted before in AZ – the only state that actually did a meaningful large scale audit – almost 50K of duplicate ballots for the same voters were found. AZ counted on the fact that it was illegal to vote more than once in AZ and hoped people would follow the law.
              There was no process to stop it.
              It is near certain this occured in many other states.

            3. You and I can debate the scale of illegal ballot harvesting in the swing states – but we have Video of ballot harvestors depositing 5 or more ballots at one time into ballot boxes. If the only evidence was the video – there are still almost 2000 instances of fraudulent ballots being injected in 6 states. None of those were caught – no matter what – the procedures you claim worked – eitehr were not present (mostly) or failed(less frequently).

              And if you combine the video with the geotracking the scale of the fraud increases by a factor of 20. We do not have video of every fraudulent ballot drop. But we do have video of thousands of them.

              You keep wanting to ignore that. some of the video is especially damning – why did these people shift to wearing gloves after someone was arrested based on fingerprints on ballots ? Why were they universally taking selfies of the ballots being dropped int he boxes ?
              Why were they depositing ballots mostly late at night with no one arround. Why do we have them in cars signing multiple ballots before depositing them ?

              And why if your procedures worked – were none of these fraudulent ballots CAUGHT ? Why were very few of these people caught and prosecuted ?

              I suggested random audits, to verify ballot counting operations.

              It is quite simple to randomly audit all these security measures that you THINK are in place.

              Have the SOS deliberately inject invalid mailin ballots into drop boxes and see if they are caught ?

              We already know they were not. The procedures failed.

              Which they will always do if there is no enforcement.

              There have been actual prosecutions for Election fraud in 2020. Despite AGAIN the efforts of DEMOCRATS to disbar every attorney, DA, AG that tried to prosecute a 2020 Election fraud case.

              BTW Democrats ADMIT that they went after anyone trying to investigate or prosecute ballot fraud and that they got more than 100 attorney’s disbarred over it.

              That is a pretty sure way to make CERTAIN that election fraud never gets scrutiny.

              But if you keep this nonsense up – eventually you will get caught in a way it can not be hidden.

              And if you continue to have mailin elections – you WILL get caught.

            4. Chain of custody is just ONE small part of election integrity – states have a whole slew of election procedures to prevent Fraud.

              But those procedures are meaningless if there are no consequences for failure to follow them.

              They were not followed in 2020 and we know it from what little scrutiny was possible – which was actually significantly more than normal.

          3. Several states rely exclusively on mail-in voting and for decades they have had few issues with fraud. Mail-in voting is not new. It has been a good method of voting and safe too. What has changed is the amount of deliberate demagoguery towards mail-in voting because it is primarily used by democrats. That’s no mere coincidence.

            1. “Several states rely exclusively on mail-in voting and for decades they have had few issues with fraud. ”
              Oregon is the first state to conduct voting by mail. It did so in 1998 Barely 2 decades ago. Oregon has one of the best vote by mail systems.
              They vote exclusively by mail. No republican has won state wide since that occured.
              Oregon and every other state that has implimented Mailin voting had atleast 6% of mailin ballots rejected the 1st year of mailin voting.
              The rate of rejections in 2020 for first time mailin voters was 0.1% – impossibly low based on past experience.

              Washington was the 2nd state to switch to mailin voting requiring all mailin voting in 2011 – only a decade ago.
              In 2013 Colorado switched to mailin voting – less than a decade ago.
              Utah allowed mailin voting in 2014.
              California in 2016.
              No other states had even limited mailin voting prior to 2020.

              “Mail-in voting is not new.”
              Correct.
              “It has been a good method of voting and safe too.”
              Nope, it can not EVER be made safe. it is corruptable in exactly the same ways that elections in the 19th century were corrupted.

              None of the states that switched have had an election that was close enough that fraud could be a factor.

              When everyone knows in an election who the winner is going to be BEFORE the election takes place – there is ZERO incentive for fraud.

              The left likes to claim election fraud is rare. It is so long as elections are not likely to be close. But since 2000 we are seeing an increasing number of close elections.

              Just review RCP’s list of the current state of federal elections accross the country – there are nearly 100 that are within 1%.

              I would further note that just about every reveiw of mailin elections says it increases turnout – as if that is a good thing – it is not, it is a BAD thing.

              Turnout for this midterm neared presidential election levels.
              It shoudl be self evident to everyone here that as turnout levels – in presidential and mid terms have been rising – the bitter divisions in the country have been rising. These are not just related – they are cause and effect related.

              The very worst thing you can do to the political stability of a country is to have frequent very high turnout elections.

              The ranting primarily of the left – thought definitely on the right over this cycle that democracy is at stake has been evil and stupid and damaging to the country.

              We will continue to be bitterly divided politically in this country so long as election turnout remains high.

              And those like you are throwing fuel on that fire.

              I have repeatedly stated here – that if I could I would schedule elections to be one day only and have a hurricane in all 50 states that day.

              The left rants about voter supression – as if actual voter supression is evil. It is NOT it is a significant positive good.
              We only want those voters who are very serious and have thought of issues to vote.

              Elections and polls suffer from many of the same problems – they do not EVER accurately gauge what people really want.

              The very best measure we have of what people want is free markets.
              You give each person limited resources, and then you tell them that they must use those resources to make choices among what they want and need. Every single choice they make has a cost, and every single choice they make impacts every other choice they can make.

              This alone is one of the most important reasons that we should NEVER do in government what we can do within markets – because nothing more accurately reflects the values wants and needs of people than there choices in a free market.

              But there is no free market means to have elections. The best we can do is to make voting have some cost – even a small cost,
              to disuade voters that are less serious.

              Even pollsters know that costs change results.
              Poll people on almost any left leaning issue – and you can often get supermajorities supporting “free things”.
              But tell voters that some “free program” will cost them as little as $100/year – and support disappears almost completely.

              No one washes a rental car.

              We KNOW from massive studies that people make poor choices if they do not have “skin in the game”.

              One of the many failures of socialism is that it pretends to give to people for free what always has real cost.

              “What has changed is the amount of deliberate demagoguery towards mail-in voting because it is primarily used by democrats. That’s no mere coincidence”

              Nope. Mailin voting has ALWAYS been a bad idea. Globally Mailin voting is very rare.
              It is incompatible with secret ballots – which nearly all the world has adopted.

              There was no big move to mailin voting in the US prior to covid.

              I would further note that mailin and absentee voting are radically different – though in some states mailin voting is called absentee voting.

            2. “It is not a coincidence that TODAY democrats favor mailin voting and republicans do not. ”

              Democrats have been actively trying to destroy election security for almost a decade.
              Mailin voting accomplishes that purpose.

              Outside of CA ballot harvesting is illegal in all 49 states.
              But ballot harvesting of mailin voting is nearly impossible to prevent.

              Further we are in the midst of massive demographic shifts that likely favor republicans – thought they are difficult to sort out.
              I will bet heavily that democrats will oppose mailin voting the moment the demographics of mailin voting go against them.

            3. Svelaz, I have been fighting for election security since 2000.

              I have fought against both republicans and democrats.
              I have fought against all kinds of stupid ideas.
              Mailin voting was just one of those.

              I beleive you were trying to defend the absolutely idiotic voting terminals that we got stuck with from the Republican HAV bill in 2001.

              It is in theory possible to make these secure – though they are still very dangerous because it requires only a small number of people to rig an election in ways that can not be detected. Securing them requires trusted experts to regularly review them .
              And even then – they are a black box with no transparency and we must rely on experts.

              You can not conduct an election where you must blindly trust third parties.
              You should not run an election where trust is not primarily created by transparency.

              mailin voting is just the current favorite way to wreck trust in elections.

              We have already seen that.

              Idiots like you on the left think the problem with 2020 is “election deniers”.
              Every single election EVER has election deniers. There are hundreds of examples of democrats denying the results of elections.
              Even you periodically pretend Trump did not win 2016.

              There is absolutely nothing wrong EVER about questioning elections, institutions, government, anything.

              Trust is not destroyed by people asking questions, challenging elections, institutions, government.

              Trust is destroyed when there is no transparency. When questions are not answered.
              When inquiry is thwarted.

              YOU are the threat to elections – not so called election deniers.

              And eventually this blows up in your face – guarenteed.

              As the line in field of dreams says – “if you build it, they will come”.

              You can beleive that mailin elections have not already resulted in serious election fraud if you wish.
              But it is wishful thinking to beleive it never will.

              The history of US 19th century election fraud alone should teach you better.
              If you make fraud possible – you WILL get Fraud.

              Mailin elections make multiple forms of election fraud that have been impossible for a century possible again.

      2. Relying on polls seems to be more of the problem.

        It seems Trump and the right-wing media is at it again with it’s Election Day shenanigans. Is it 200k, 250k, or 240k? Just the news which often misleads on it’s content has only posted allegations by some PA lawmakers who cannot show how they arrived at the 200k-250k Ballots. In reality it’s actually 7,600 unverified ballots.

        “7,600. That’s the actual number of mail-in ballot applications that still need to be verified, according to Chapman, who noted in her letter to Republican lawmakers they “do not clearly delineate” how they arrived at the 240,000 figure (the article Trump shared claims there are 10,000 more unverified ballots).”

        It seems PA lawmakers are either ignorant of their own laws or just don’t know how their state mail-in verification system works.

        “CLAIM: Pennsylvania has sent “255,000 unverified” voters ballots for the midterm elections.

        AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. That claim misrepresents state data, which lists many voters as “not verified” for internal workflow purposes and includes, for example, voters requesting permanent mail-in ballots whose identities were verified in the primary election but will be re-checked for the general election, officials said. It does not mean that the voters failed to provide correct identification information, nor does it mean their identities weren’t ultimately verified.

        THE FACTS: Social media posts and headlines this week promoted the false claim that Pennsylvania officials had issued around a quarter-million ballots to people whose identities weren’t confirmed.”

        “In Pennsylvania, those applying for mail-in or absentee ballots must provide proof of identification — such as providing state driver’s license information or the last four digits of their Social Security Number.

        In some cases, a voter’s identifying information is automatically verified. For example, if they supply their driver’s license number with an online ballot application, the system automatically cross-references it with Pennsylvania Department of Transportation data, acting Secretary of State Leigh Chapman wrote in a Friday response letter to the Republican lawmakers.

        However, in other cases, the voter’s identifying information must go through further verification processes. When that happens, the application enters the statewide system under a designation labeled “NV,” or “not verified.”

        Notably, the “not verified” designation doesn’t mean the voter didn’t provide accurate identification information, nor does it mean their ID wasn’t later verified.

        “The code does not reflect the results of any identification check but is, in fact, an additional mechanism to ensure that counties are properly verifying ID provided by voters,” Chapman said.

        Chapman added that the “NV” status can also be applied to applications of voters who request to permanently receive mail-in ballots so that verification occurs for every election in which the ballot is issued.

        If a voter’s identification can’t be verified at the time they apply for a ballot, state law does require that the voter still be issued a ballot and be provided an opportunity until the sixth day after the election to provide the proper proof of identification. But counties are not to count the ballot unless the voter provides proof of identification.

        There are currently about 7,600 ballot applications in Pennsylvania that still require identification verification, according to the Department of State.”

        It’s not fraud. It’s just ignorant lawmakers who have no idea what their own laws say about how this verification system works. This is what happens when ignorance of the law is used as an excuse to claim fraud. Those ballots are not illegal and there are some that are unverified still. The majority are still legal according to the state’s law on verification and how their system works.

        1. We are likely all agreed our polling has problems.
          While this is the first election in a long time were there appears to be many instances of clear significant error overstating the strength of republicans. Uniformly our polling has been abysmally for some time.
          The errors in PA, GA, and NV appear to be tiny, but the errors in NH, MI, WI, NY, FL, AZ, WA, are huge.
          in some cases double digits.

          This has also been true of the last 3 election cycles – though the error in those was all over estimating democrats.

          Polling is outside the domain of government – it is privately done, and a part of the free market.

          We need better polling – for many reasons,
          But among them because poor polling leads both to actual fraud and questions of fraud.

          We also need far better elections.

          You can rant and rave all you want – but razor thin elections are likely here to stay for a long time.
          Close elections are a gigantic invitation to fraud.
          The odds of election fraud increase exponentially with the decrease in the expected margin of victory.

          There are many elections across the country yesterday that I have little doubt had significant fraud in them.
          That is very bad, and we really must fix it.
          But wherever the margin of victory is larger than likely fraud – citizens will accept the results.

          And you do not grasp how important that is.

          The declaration of independence establishes to core principle that the legitimacy of government rests on the consent of the governed.

          Elections are the way we CHOOSE to measure that consent. But that consent does not exist if we do not believe the results of the election.

          And though you keep trying to criminalize disagreement – refusing to believe what you want people to believe – is not EVER a crime.

          I would note we had MASSIVE illegal meddling in this election – DOJ got involved in all kinds of nonsense they do not belong in.
          While Zuckerberg is not continuing to fund his election meddling 501C3 – they are still in place and still funded.

          What is MOSTLY different from 2020, is that illegal conduct did not alter results – in MOST cases.

          1. “I would note we had MASSIVE illegal meddling in this election – DOJ got involved in all kinds of nonsense they do not belong in.”

            Huh? What is you evidence for this claim? Are you referring to the DOJ election observers who had a right to observe for fraud? Or are you referring to something else in addition to the DOJ?

            1. “What is you evidence for this claim? ”
              The DOJ

              “Are you referring to the DOJ election observers who had a right to observe for fraud?”
              No I am refering to the DOJ sending people to intimidate election observers.
              The DOJhas NEVER done anything to deal with election fraud.
              Trump BEGGED Barr publicly before and after the election to do so.
              There is no constitutional authority for the DOJ to do so.

              Regardless the Biden admin started the process of ensuring that election observers would not be able to do their jobs months ago.
              I beleive all state allow election observers.
              In some states observers from Both parties are REQUIRED everywhere their is voting and votes are counted.
              Most state require that if an observer challenges something that the ballots be set aside and adjuicated later.
              The DOJ openly admitted they were sending attorneys to key democratic cities to repeat the idiocy of 2020 and prevent observers from questioning anything.

              This is a very stupid idea.

              Do you understand that it is TRIVIAL to use this in reverse.
              Democrats will lose a presidential election eventually.
              It will take a miracle for them to win in 2024.
              They will have no candidates and if they are lucky the country will just be pulling out of a recession – probably a global one.
              And possibly a very bad one.

              Do you want a Trump or DeSantis DOJ sending “election observers” to the very same cities to stop the rampant fraud in those places ?

              This is what happens when you weaponize the DOJ.

              Unless you are an idiot – you do not want the DOJ involved in elections.

        2. The illegal ballot mailout was ADMITTED by the PA SOS,
          And she then CLAIMS to have put into place a process to correct for her ERROR.

          You are CONSTANTLY confusing separate issues and pretending they are the same.
          And CONSTANTLY clueless about the actual facts.

          1. “The illegal ballot mailout was ADMITTED by the PA SOS,
            And she then CLAIMS to have put into place a process to correct for her ERROR.

            You are CONSTANTLY confusing separate issues and pretending they are the same.
            And CONSTANTLY clueless about the actual facts.”

            You still have not provided a link to what you are referring to. If the ballots were mailed out BEFORE realizing she couldn’t putting in place a process to correct the error. The key word here is “error”. It was a mistake and it was corrected and addressed. You jump to the assumption that it is not true without any evidence and push the idea that the ballots were illegally included in the vote without proof. So your absence of evidence is evidence mantra continues. It seems to be a vicious cycle that feeds your distrust because clearly anything that lacks evidence IS evidence that fraud or sometime nefarious is afoot. It points to classic paranoia.

            “You are CONSTANTLY confusing separate issues and pretending they are the same.
            And CONSTANTLY clueless about the actual facts.”

            Well you’re the one not providing correct information or vague inferences to issues. One is left to assume you are either talking about a single issue or two depending on the vagueness of your claims and lack of details such as links that refer to the claims.

            1. No information I have provided is in error.
              You repeatedly make errors.
              You do not ever check your facts.
              You constantly make stupid assumptions.
              You are the only one of us that is muddled, and vague.
              I am not apologizing for the fact that you are unable to search for information.

              I would note there is already a long list of problems coming in from 2022.
              All of it is disturbing – it may not change outcomes, but it is more evidence that
              elections are botched – that it is impossible to trust elections administered by republicans.
              The NY web site reporting county by county results is completely screwed up.
              Reporting the same exact numbers for every country Zeldin won, and one of only 3 unique numbers for each county Hochul won.

              Probably that is just some stupid error on the part of election officials.

              But why is anyone to beleive you can run an election if you can not run a website ?
              Florida counted almost 8M votes before midnight on election day.
              CA is telling us it will be 35 days before they are done counting.
              Who knows if we will ever see results for AZ or NV.
              early voting information for AZ and NV was extraordinarily heavy for Republicans.
              Those votes have not been counted yet.
              But do you want to bet, that is not how they drop ?

              Long lists of unusual election problems all over the country.
              And more of those 100K democrat favoring ballot drops in MI and GA.
              Real ? Some anomally ?
              Regardless, they are GUARANTEED to cause people to cry fraud. and rightfully so.

              We look WORSE than a bannana republic.

        3. I would further note that you are completely ignorant of PA politics, elections, and election corruption.
          A huge problem with predates Trump by my entire lifetime.

          Fraud in Philadelphia is commonplace and has been ongoing for decades.
          There is not a single election that I can recall that did not result in Philadelphia election officials being convicted of election fraud.

          You can rant and rave and cite whatever ostrich head in the sand sources you wish.

          You can conflate the MANY different claims of fraud with each other pretending that the numbers do not match – because you are comparing apples and oranges.

          But you will make no progress persuading the vast majority of pennsylvanians that Philadephia is always engaged in large scale election fraud.

          We live here.
          We know better.
          We did not need Trump to tell us that Philadephia was corrupt.

          1. John, nobody says there is zero fraud, None. The fraud that does occur is rarely significant enough to affect the outcome of an election. With RARE instances that have occurred.

            Many claims of voter fraud have been investigated and found to be just simple errors or unintentionally trying to vote twice. What these investigations always overlook is the simple fact that they are getting caught. Your assertions that there is MASSIVE voter fraud are merit less and devoid or of any evidence. But of course your lack of evidence IS the evidence you rely on to assert your claims. It’s your unhealthy paranoia of fraudulent activities afoot because there is an alarming lack of evidence that seems to be your biggest problem.

            1. “John, nobody says there is zero fraud, None.”
              And yet we here that about 2020 all the time.
              “The fraud that does occur is rarely significant enough to affect the outcome of an election.”
              Fraud is not accidental or random.
              Significant fraud is rare because:
              it is hard,
              the difficulty increases exponentially with the scale of the fraud.
              Did I say it is hard – let me repeat that – large scale fraud in properly administered in person elections conducted on a single day is incedibly hard and likely to get caught.
              Mailin voting increases the ease with which large scale fraud can be accomplished and not caught by several orders of magnitude.

              “With RARE instances that have occurred.”
              I doubt you have any clue how frequently fraud has occured.
              In the 19th century election fraud was MASSIVE.

              The notion that fraud is rare naturally is magical thinking.

              Fraud in inperson elections has been relatively rare because we have spent a century figuring out how to make that fraud very hard.

              IN my county in 2000 as a result of HAV they retired all the old mechanical voting machines – that were used by everyone for all my life before 2000. Nearly every single one had gears filed down. Fraud conducted in some election long ago had been randomly interfering with elections for decades.

              Similar issues were found with retiring mechanical voting machines all over the country.

              Election fraud is only rare because the procedures that Democrats keep trying to obliterate have made it hard.

              Again it is magical thinking to beleive that election fraud will be rare if you make it easy.

              Mailin elections as they are currently conducted in most states are EASILY defrauded.

              It is possible to reduce fraud in mailin voting, and some states do better than others.
              But it is NEVER possible to get it down to the levels of in person voting.

              “Many claims of voter fraud have been investigated”
              Very few have been investigated. Even before 2020 investigating election fraud is extremely rare.

              “and found to be just simple errors or unintentionally trying to vote twice.”
              Made up claim.
              I would note the Big problem is NOT the Few people that try to vote more than once.
              The big problem is that if the process is not such that their attempts are caught BEFORE their vote is accepted – that means the flaws in the process are bad enough to allow large scale fraud.
              I told you that the AZ audit found 13K people truned in almost 50K ballots.

              Maybe that is 13K individuals voting 2, 3, 4, 5 times.
              More likely it is an organized Fraud effort mass producing ballots for low frequency voters.
              And that means they almost 50K ballots is just the tip of the iceberg.

              You have YET to address how a state using current or 2020 rules prevents me from getting a copy of the voter registration database – it is publicly available. selecting 100K voters who have not voted in the past 3 elections, producing a forged mailin ballot for them, and dropping those 100K fraudulent ballots into a drop box ?
              Nothing done in most states in 2020 would even detect that. Most states will not pick that up today.
              There are a few states that have processes that would – but none of the key states in 2020.

              If you build it they will come.

              Whether you like it or not HISTORY teaches us that if large scale fraud is possible – it will happen.
              Claims that fraud is magically rare are near meaningless.

              “What these investigations always overlook is the simple fact that they are getting caught.”
              Nope, even with in person elections were the likely scale of election fraud is only a few thousand per state,
              very little of it ever gets caught.

              In 2016 in NH about 6400 people voted without being able to prove NH residence at the time they voted – all those votes were counted.
              Over the next year a bit more than 1/2 showed up on NH records proving residence – they bought a home or got a drivers license.
              But about 2500 never established evidence they actually legally resided in NH. AGAIN those votes were counted.
              There was no effort made to find any of these people to establish whether they were engaged in fraud or not.

              Election fraud is very rarely investigated – even before democrats started disbarring attorneys that tried to go after election fraud.

              “Your assertions that there is MASSIVE voter fraud are merit less and devoid or of any evidence.”
              False.

              “But of course your lack of evidence IS the evidence you rely on to assert your claims. It’s your unhealthy paranoia of fraudulent activities afoot because there is an alarming lack of evidence that seems to be your biggest problem.”
              You are very bad at psychology, worse then you are with facts.
              Do not pretend to know my motives, or feelings it just makes you look like more of a fool.

              As I noted above – there is and has been -plenty of evidence of possible election fraud long before 2020.
              Though not on the likely scale of 2020.

              Regardless, you just do not grasp that they duty to conduct trustworthy elections rests with the GOVERNMENT.
              Not with me. You would be correct that if I were alone in the wilderness questioning election results – that is not the basis to scrutinize the system. But I am not alone.

              If only 5% of people beleive there is significant election fraud – there is a major problem, and you amplify the bitterness and divisions and doubt of the legitimacy of government we currently have. But that number is far more than 5%.

              You have a serious problem, and you have your head in the sand.
              While the allegations of election fraud are credible. What is most relevant is that a large portion of citizens believe there is large scale fraud.

              Like it or not you MUST fix that, or you will have a mess.

            2. My prediction for the outstanding statewide elections is that Republicans will lose all of them.
              GA will have a runnoff. Walker will lose.
              Oz already lost a close election.
              Laxalt will lose narrowly
              Lake will lose.
              Any other outstanding close elections – will go to democrats.

              NOW, do you understand what the odds that Republicans lost every close election in 2020, and every close election in 2022 is ?

              Flip a coin a dozen times and get it to go heads every single time.
              The odds of that are 1:4096

              The odds of a specific party winning an election that is within 1% are indistinguishable from 50:50

              You want everyone to beleive that Democrats are so lucky they always win close elections ?

              I would note that each cycle only makes this problem WORSE.

              You claim I do not have evidence – I have provided you LOTS of evidence.

              But further damning is that every single time democrats win a razor thin election and republicans lose – with no parity,
              suspicions rise. And rightly so.

        4. BTW I would question YOUR claim that there are 7600 mailin ballots that need to be verified.
          As of a few minutes ago there are about 300K outstanding PA ballots yet to be counted.
          These are ALL mailin ballots. Philadelphia – not the SOS controversially committed to verifying each one prior to counting – a process which might take days.

          Just to be clear – I welcome that verification.
          BUT the time it takes to verify that a mailin ballot is both correct, and did not come from a voter that also voted on election day – a process which PA did not do in 2022, is just another reason to eliminate mailin voting.

          Delays in counting ballots are a well known historic red flag for fraud.

          Prior to 2020 we almost always knew the outcome of every election by 12 or 1am.

          We no longer do.
          That alone is VERY BAD for trust in govenrment.

          France counts 80M ballots on election day BY HAND withing a few hours.
          But France – like the entire rest of the world does not conduct mailin voting.

          The US experience with that in the past 2 election is likely to assure that no other nation will be so stupid.

          Specifically in PA prior to this mailin voting fiasco, Philadelphia MOSTLY came in early,
          That itself was a major antifraud measure. Because Rural PA always comes in just after midnight,
          Philadelphia democrats could not know how much fraud was needed to win a statewide election.
          So fraud was MOSTLY confined to Philadelphia local elections.

          Regardless, counting votes as quickly as possible – which is impossible in a mailin election is a major antifraud measure.

          Just one of many democrats have destroyed.

          1. “BTW I would question YOUR claim that there are 7600 mailin ballots that need to be verified.
            As of a few minutes ago there are about 300K outstanding PA ballots yet to be counted.”

            I didn’t make that claim the PA SoS did. Pay attention.

            Here you’re conflating two different issues. There are 300k ballots yet to be counted pending verification. That doesn’t mean they are illegal. It means that have not been counted.

            “These are ALL mailin ballots. Philadelphia – not the SOS controversially committed to verifying each one prior to counting – a process which might take days.”

            If it takes time to verify the ballots then it takes time. That still doesn’t mean they are illegal or fraudulent. The need for immediate results should be irrelevant, You want accuracy which I suspect you agree is more important. There are programs and databases and scanners that can make the process faster. This isn’t some Byzantine process.

            “Delays in counting ballots are a well known historic red flag for fraud.

            Prior to 2020 we almost always knew the outcome of every election by 12 or 1am.

            We no longer do.
            That alone is VERY BAD for trust in govenrment.”

            LOL!! That’s because of the additional requirements republicans imposed on election processes. It USED to be you got results rather quickly because they used to scan everything and count the ballots as they were cast. That is no longer the case in most states where they send the totals to tabulation centers and use the use of paper ballots by some folks. If you want speed then you risk more errors. If you want accurate you’re better off being patient.

            There is nothing that says the counting of vote has to be done as quickly as possible or done within hours of polls closing. Obviously you want accuracy, especially when races are tight.

            You’re a contradictory mess. You say voting faster is an anti-fraud measure but that is more prone to errors which with your paranoia you would still claim fraudulent activity because of the errors.

            The only reason why France can count by hand that many votes is because they have an established student of volunteers that is massive. We don’t have that and we don’t have the patience for that as you so clearly demonstrated.

            1. It does not take time to verify ballots in an in person election.
              It is very hard for the same person to appear at the same precinct twice without getting caught.

              Regardless, the time it takes to count the vote is a strong indicator of fraud.

              One of the problems with large scale fraud is that you have to know how much fraud you need.
              Over estimating can make the fraud stick out more.
              It has historically been very very very common to see fraudulent ballots appear suddenly very late in the election.

              That is why the massive late ballot drops in all the swing states make people incredibly suspicious.

              Regardless, if you have made such of a mass of the election process that it takes more than a few hours on election night to accurately count the vote – you have damaged trust in the election – and that is your problem.

              Yes there is something that says the counting of votes must be done quickly. You want people to trust the outcome – transparent – which the left does not do, and consistent. FL counted 8M votes accurately by Midnight.
              If PA can not count less in the same time – people have good reason to wonder what is wrong.

              Though frankly the number of votes does not actually matter. properly done elections are an infinitely scaleable problem. that will take the same time to do everytime no matter what.
              Does it take longer to count 500 precincts each with 15,000 voters (8M votes) that it does to count 1000 precincts with 15,000 votes ?
              As I noted before the French count 80M paper ballots by hand in a few hours.

              Yes, you have to do it right. you also must do it quickly and without error.
              And there is no reason – except screwed up election processes that all look like they exist purely to enable fraud, that counting can not be completely quickly – and accurately and without fraud.

              The fact that you can’t is itself a strong indication you have corrupted the process.

            2. “You’re a contradictory mess. You say voting faster is an anti-fraud measure but that is more prone to errors which with your paranoia you would still claim fraudulent activity because of the errors.”

              I am not responsible for your inability to think critically.

              There is no contradiction.
              It is not hard to construct elections where fraud is nearly non-existant, the process is transparent, the error rate is low, and the count is completed quickly.

              I would note this is actually something I do for a living.
              Lets say you are a submarine and you want to launch a cruise missle.
              There are hundreds of steps that all must be taken – without any mistake in very short period of time, each and every time – without fail.

              Get ONE wrong and it is total disaster, probably you kill the entire multi-billion dollar submarine and crew.

              Conducting a fraud free, error free, transparent, trustworthy election quickly is a much simpler problem, and it is an engineering problem nothing more. It is so simple – it does not require a single computer. The whole process can be done by hand.

              Not only can I solve that problem easily – I can solve it multiple different ways.

              But the problem is like the submarine missle lauch problem – do it wrong and you have allowed large scale fraud.
              And if you create the opening – you will get it.

            3. “The only reason why France can count by hand that many votes is because they have an established student of volunteers that is massive. We don’t have that and we don’t have the patience for that as you so clearly demonstrated.”

              False and irrelevant.

              The french have a bottom up election system- similar to MUCH of the US – except democrat controled cities – which are the problem.

              Votes are counted in precincts that are roughly the same size. Therefore they take roughly the same amount of time to count.
              From their everything is trivial. You can forward the precinct counts to the SOS, or just publish them, or both.
              If you publish them at the precint level – the press will add them for you providing a check against fraud at the SOS level.
              France has almost no mailin/absentee voting – though even this can be dealt with with near fixed size precincts.

              US vote counting did not take forever – before Democrats started corrupting our election laws.
              It does not need to.

              There is no need for massive numbers of volunteers. MOST of the US manages to count tens of millions of votes in a few hours.
              Only the democrat run cities can not manage that.

        5. Please actually read PA Act 77.

          You are completely clueless about the law.

          Some of your confusion – can be forgiven – because the PA SCOTUS rewrote large sections of the law in 2020 with no authority to do so.

          Regardless, the actual law does not say ANYTHING that you claim it does.

          1. With respect, Mr. Say, there’s no such thing as “PA SCOTUS.” SCOTUS, after all, stands for ‘Supreme Court of the United States.’ I infer that you meant the ‘Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.’

            1. Correct. I did not concoct PA SCOTUS.
              But PA SC does not work – because in PA we have a Supreme Court and a Superior court.

          2. The PA Supreme Court did not rewrite the law. They didn’t interpret the law as you wanted. Nothing says any court must interpret the law as narrowly as possible. If the PA Supreme Court came to it’s conclusion then it was their interpretation that matters. If you disagree then vote for new justices when they are up for a vote.

            1. “The PA Supreme Court did not rewrite the law.”
              BZZT wrong.
              “They didn’t interpret the law as you wanted.”
              No they did not interpret the law or constitution as they are written.
              They ignored the rules of statutory construction that we have taken thousands of years to develop.

              “Nothing says any court must interpret the law as narrowly as possible.”
              The rules of statutory construction literally say that.
              Also logic requires that – you can not have a system of laws that does not read laws narrowly,
              without ending up with a mess, where anything goes and nothing goes concurrently.
              This is just a ludicrously stupid claim of yours.

              “If the PA Supreme Court came to it’s conclusion then it was their interpretation that matters.”
              Nope, when they fail to apply the law as written or the constitution as written – we are then lawless.
              That is literally an unfixable problem.

              “If you disagree then vote for new justices when they are up for a vote”
              More proof of your error.
              We change the law to change the law.
              We change the constitution to change the constitution.

              We do not change the courts or the governor to change the law or constitution.
              That again results in the rule of man not law, and chaos.

              Which is what we have today.
              Chaos will continue until the court is fixed and people like you are devoid of power.
              You are a danger to yourself and others.

              https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/a-dozen-canons-of-statutory-and-constitutional-text-construction/

  3. Noted for mystified and despondent Magats on this non red wave Wednesday morning. Cheer up…, if the House goes red we’ll get to see Marge try to dog walk McCarthy for two years while getting shot down by the Senate. Plenty of outrage opportunity though…, fat nixon will be getting indicted on multiple charges as well. Probably beginning today…

    https://nami.org/Get-Involved/Awareness-Events/Suicide-Prevention-Awareness-Month-(SPAM)

  4. “You gotta swallow this one. They stole it fair and square.”–Advisor to Richard Nixon on Nixon’s 1960 election loss; from Oliver Stone’s film Nixon.

  5. My bet is that Fetterman’s goal is to keep the seat warm for the communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs, AINOs) because something else is going to break off in his circulatory system and his next stroke will be his last. God Bless Mr. Fetterman.

    My point is that “seat warming” for a political “party” is not any form of logical, ethical or virtuous “raison de voter,” and suggestive of general corruption in “party” politics.

    It might do well for elected officials to be dedicated to the general (i.e. all or the whole) prosperity of the State.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    “It was not that they didn’t think of [political] parties; just the idea of a party brought back bitter memories to some of them.”

    – Willard Sterne Randall, Professor Emeritus of History, Champlain College
    ____________________________________________________________

    “Many of them saw parties—or ‘factions,’ as they called them—as corrupt relics of the monarchical British system that they wanted to discard in favor of a truly democratic government.”

    – Sarah Pruitt
    ___________

    “The common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.”

    – George Washington, 1796

  6. If it is not a concrete process, democrats have shown they will abuse that process.

    We need clear and firm start and (especially) end dates to our elections’ voting periods that everyone respects.

    1. 2 U.S. Code § 7 – Time of election

      The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter.
      __________________________________________________________________________________

      Article 1, Section 4

      The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of choosing Senators.
      __________________________________________________________________

      TUESDAY IS ONE 24-HOUR PERIOD.

      TUESDAY IS ONE “DAY.”

      TUESDAY, ONE 24-HOUR PERIOD, IS ESTABLISHED AS THE “DAY” FOR THE ELECTION.

      THE POST OFFICE IS NOT A DAY.

      THE POST OFFICE IS NOT A PLACE.

      VOTE-BY-MAIL IS PRIMA FACIE AND DE FACTO UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND WHOLLY UNNECESSARY.
      ______________________________________________________________________________________

      Turnout was 11.6% in 1788; the Founders never intended for every man to vote, or for one man, one vote democracy in their restricted-vote republic.

      Congress, half of the legislative branch, may “alter” election regulations; the DOJ, a subsidiary of the executive branch, and any and all other departments and agencies may not.

      The executive branch has no authority to usurp the power of the legislative branch.

      Elections must occur at a time and a place.

      The Post Office is NOT a day.

      The Post Office is NOT a time.

      The Post Office is NOT a place.

      Citizens, alone as individuals, must put forth the effort to vote.

      The Constitution does not require a vote by any citizen.

      Some citizens may not be able to vote.

      No governmental agency has any charge to assure that every entitled citizen votes.

      Citizens may choose not to vote.

      Voting is not mandatory.

      1. George checks in with the opinion we should vote on one Tuesday in November in 13 states in an election with no political parties.

      1. It’s more like republicans are ignorant about how their laws work. When they don’t understand how their own laws work they complain democrats are cheating or rigging the election. It seems republicans are just ignorant and use ignorance as an argument.

        1. Laws “work”: as they SAY.

          PA Act 77 as an example explicitly says that to vote Mailin you MUST go in person to your county election office and apply to vote Mailin.

          That is what the law EXPLICITLY says.

          PA republicans are not the ones deluded here.

          The clear language of laws such as this have been MANGLED by democrats – not republicans.

          Nor do you grasp that this is not just about Republican legislators.

          Though that is an incredibly stupid argument as the RULES of statutory construction say that when a law is NOT clear,
          The courts MUST refer to the legislative history of the law – i.e. the discussions and comments of those republican legislators.

          There is absolutely nowhere in the rules of statutory interpretation any provision that the courts or the executive get to make up the meaning of a law.

          There are many rules of statutory construction, and the rules are prioritized – some as as simple as when a law says “he” generally it means men and women.

          But at the top of the list is a law means what it says in plain language.
          And close behind is “when in doubt defer to the legislative history”.

          So whenever you say “the legislators do not know what the laws they wrote mean” – all that does is display YOUR stupidty.

          Their words – both as reflected in the law itself and as reflected in their hearings DEFINE the law – not the SOS, not the Governor, not Marc Elias, NOT the courts.

          When the courts do not follow the US constitution, the State constitution and the rules of statutory construction and go off doing their own thing the courts are LAWLESS, and in far too many instances that is what we see today.

          I will further note – the chaos that we have now, is the result, and it will continue until the rule of law is restored.

          1. John, john, your long and pedantic posts keep conflating multiple discussions and you’re not keeping track.

            Your original claim that 200k illegal votes were counted was based on PA lawmakers claiming that those ballots were not verified. The PA SoS pointed explained to them that the PA verification system for mail-in ballots was not yet assigning the ballots as verified because the system still had several processes to go thru before verification is confirmed. Just because that issue is pending did NOT mean those ballots were illegal or invalid.

            I pointed out to you that THOSE PA lawmakers were indeed ignorant of the law and how the verification process for mail-in ballots worked. They were calling fraud or “cheating” because they did not know how the verification system of their own state functioned. They were making claims our of ignorance. Just as you did when you claimed fraud because 200k or 250k ballots were illegal. The confusion clearly seems to be that PA Republican legislators don’t really understand how their own election processes work.

            1. Please learn to read.

              You keep confusing what you say I said, with what I actually said.

              I am responsible for my own words only – not your mangled misinterpretation of them.

              You have mangled and conflated so many separate things – I have no interest in trying to sort it out for you.

              Go back and read with I actually wrote.

              The PA SOS long ago ceased to be a credible source. While your claim regarding the SOS is irrelevant to my argument. It will be atleast 4 more years before the PA SOS office can be trusted.

              We can hope Shapiro is less of an idiot than Wolf – PA has had decent democratic governors in the past – Wolf is the worst PA govenor in my lifetime. He is one of the Worse at dealing with COVID – thank god he is gone. Maybe Shapiro will return to the past tradition of competent democrats.

            2. “I pointed out to you that THOSE PA lawmakers were indeed ignorant of the law and how the verification process for mail-in ballots worked.”
              All you pointed out was how much of an in the tank idiot you are.
              First I never mentioned PA lawmakers.
              Next, THEY WROTE THE LAW – Not you, not the PA SOS, not the PA SCOTUS – THEY determined EXACTLY how mailin ballots work.

              READ THE LAW.

              “They were calling fraud or “cheating” because they did not know how the verification system of their own state functioned.”
              I know – it is not cheating or fraud – if you pretend it is not.

              Svelaz, my FACTS are not based on something the PA lawmakers said – despite the FACT that THEY – not you, not PA SOS, not PA SC wrote the law.

              Regardless, fraud is fraud, error is error. the inability to reconclie the number of voters to the number of ballots by over 200K is massive error, incompetence, and probaly fraud. It is not a misunderstanding of the verification system.
              There is no good explanation possible.

              “They were making claims our of ignorance.”
              Yes, right – once again the people who WROTE THE LAW, are ignorant of the law.

              “Just as you did when you claimed fraud because 200k or 250k ballots were illegal.”
              Again go back and read the SPECIFIC claims I made.
              I am not responsible for your mangled misunderstanding of what I wrote clearly.

              “The confusion clearly seems to be that PA Republican legislators don’t really understand how their own election processes work”
              There are several reasons for confusion – that is NOT one of them.
              Your claim that the people who spent months writing the law understanding it less that PA SC that obviously just ignored it. threw up their hands and said “covid” is just ludicrously stupid.

              ONE of the reasons for confusion is because the PA SC crafted and entirely new law – one that really is not even written down. MAnufactured from their addled brains. So yes Everyone in AP is confused.

              That is the normal consequence of the “rule of man, not law.”
              No one knows what the law is – because they can not relay on the law as written.

              Regardless, the massive election problems in PA can not be explained away by claims that the legislators misunderstand the law.
              The entire country got to watch the mess that occured after election day on 2020 – pretend all you want. It was a giant F#$king mess -created by lawless democrats.

            3. I would further note – you have been caught in so many lies – both you personally, and the left, and the democrats, that what you say can not be trusted. Nor would anyone trust that you would not engage in fraud.

              I like Sam Harris, he is brilliant. But he made clear the problem the entire country had with the left, and why STILL many many people do not trust 2020.

              Harris said the ends justify the means to get rid of Trump. If you believe that – and you, the left, democrats say that constantly.
              You said that through this election. If you believe that – I have no choice but to take you at your word.

              If you believe the ends justify the means to get rid of Trump – then you would commit election fraud if necessary.
              If you believe that in this election we faced and existential threat to democracy – then you would commit election fraud.

              One of the many reasons you are not trusted – is you have already said – you would do anything to defeat Trump or Republicans.

              And people believe you.

      2. Right? Conceding lost elections and encouraging maximum voting turnout is just so blantly illegal.

        1. Beat that straw man to death.

          Has Hillary conceded 2016 yet ?
          Has Abrams conceded 2018 yet ?

          You can engage in all the GOTV that you want – Through your political party.

          Governments role is to ADMINSTER elections – transparently, error free and fraud free.

          It is NOT the role of government to participate in elections.

          Government participation in GOTV either is a crime or should be.
          Regardless it is lawless.

          Government has no legitimate role in voter turnout.

  7. Neo-Nazis are holding huge rallies by adopting new symbols and coded words ….

    Here in the USA, Democrats have a corner on using Marxist tactics to stoke revolution vis a vis violence.

    https://abc13.com/astros-parade-why-do-people-hate-ted-cruz-midtown-houston-beer-can-thrown/12427672/

    Joseph Arcidiacono, a Democrat hairdresser with a nose ring, was arrested for throwing projectiles at Senator Ted Cruz. You can tell he is a Democrat by the nose ring he/she/they wear, which is how Democrats drag their cult followers. It appears the Marxists “Purposed For The People” group in Humble, Tx, have started a Go Fund Me account to financially support the violent Democrat who could have done to Sen Cruz what David DePape did to Paul Pelosi

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/joseph-halm-arcidiacono-need-our-assistance

    After seeing the video and listening to the crowd I believe Joseph was under pressure and frustration and happened to throw beer at Ted! Although he was very apologetic I believe he need our help because we understand his frustration! We don’t incite violence but we believe Joseph should be home! Please pitch in as we help him and others in time of need like these! Purposed For The People

    Aside from horrific grammar, (nod to Randi Weingarten Trans / CRT loving American Federation of Teachers), why the anonymous group name? What do they fear? imagine if someone had started a Go Fund Me account for David DePape to support a mentally ill homeless man, in the name of justice, addressing economic and medical disparities and what not.

  8. Lets count how many court cases the Trumplican party files if they win. And how many they file if they lose.

    1. Q for Fishmonger: How in the hell can 1/5 of vote tabulating machines in the biggest county in the state stop working on Election Day?

      A: Democrat cheating and fraud. Intentional Republican voter suppression. Per usual for corrupt Maricopa Cty.

      1. In Arizona. How in the hell can 1/5 of vote tabulating machines in the biggest county in Arizona stop working on Election Day?

      2. Maybe it’s because Arizona is too cheap to buy good reputable machines and it got what it paid s for.

        Arizona which is already a hotbed of conspiracy theory nut jobs didn’t disappoint when the rumors and conspiracy theories started flying. It only took almost two hours for the accusations to start.

        1. “. . . too cheap to buy good reputable machines . . .”

          They’re *Dominion* machines. Remember those?

          1. Then it must be purely mismanagement by republicans who can’t figure out how machines work? Maybe that’s why they want only paper ballots. It’s not complicated and it takes way longer to count. Good ol’ fashioned hand counting all the way.

            1. Svelaz: I notice that you show up every weekday, during 9-5:00 mostly. Then you disappear for the weekend. You must either be a paid commentator/commenter, -or someone on company time, using company computer, to spread your wisdom?
              Which is it?

              1. Lin, only two options? Never thought there were more than two? No, I’m not a paid commentator, I wish it were that easy. It’s funny many think I am despite the fact that there are other ‘conservative’ commenters here who post just as much as I do.
                I don’t have a 9 to 5 job. I regularly work 12-14hrs a day 5 days a week. Sometimes 4 if I don’t need the overtime. I have four gorgeous monitors at my work station and the type of work I do is more about monitoring tests and analyzing results and writing reports when there are anomalies. I just have a good multitasking habit and a lot of time when the tests are on going. Weekends are for chilling out and hanging out with family. It takes priority over posting here with the rare exceptions. So no real mystery really.

                Hullbobby sure is busy keeping track of my posts, I should be flattered at least.

                1. (Lighten up. I already knew all this because of your quick-to-jump “Anonymous” commentary on my posts, attempting to discredit me on logic, mathematics, physics, etc. (I just sit back and watch others discredit you.) In any event, I was just teasing you, sorry if you took offense.

                  1. (p.s. you should have noticed that I did not call you a troll, etc.) Logic should have led you to more deductive reasoning, n’est ce pas?)

                    1. Lin, I never accused you of calling me a troll. I don’t know where you got that impression from. Are you sure you’re not confusing me with Witherspoon? He’s the one who is always accusing others of being a troll whenever he’s losing an argument.

                  2. No offense at all. I can see how you would be curious. What do is not an attempt to discredit, just offering an counterpoint or a alternate point of view. I’m sure you would agree that it is far better than being in a stuffy echo chamber.

                2. I would be shocked to find out you were a paid comentator.

                  I do not think even democrats would pay for posts as poor as yours.

            2. RE:”Then it must be purely mismanagement by republicans who can’t figure out how machines work..” Florida is Republican. It has nothing to with Party and everything to do with incompetence. DeSantis dusted his broom after 2018 and, even with the west coast upside down after the storm, the count was done in a few hours.

            3. There is no need for “machines”

              Regardless, black boxes are an incredibly stupid idea in elections.

              The entire election process MUST be transparent – if you want people to have confidence in results.
              You do not grasp the need for that. But all this chaos and distrust will continue until you learn.

              There are excellent reasons for paper ballots. They are a record in the voters own hand.
              They are the original. They can be counted easily and recounted easily.
              They are not easy to hack, they are not easy to engage in fraud.
              We have centuries of experience with them.
              They are easily audited.

              I have no problem with scanners being used to count paper ballots, but only if there is a pre election certification process and random audits.

              But we would all be better off if ballots were counted by hand.

              France counts about 80M ballots in a matter of hours after every election.
              There is no good reason we can not have transparent trustworthy elections – like most of the rest of the world.

              You do not seem to understand you have made US elections less trustworthy than those of Russia.

    2. Cheating Dems want to force Pennsylvania to count undated mail-in ballots. Pennsylvania must say NO!

      1. The whole thing smells of Hillary/ Dollars to donuts she sent the team in. Fedderman has about as much sense as PedoJoe

      2. Ummm…this actually shines a light on the massive attempts by the right to game the election process.

        1. But you can’t say how. Instead you will link to something you don’t understand and proves nothing.

          1. Elias is quite adept at pointing out exactly how with his suits. He does extraordinary work in the realm of voter suppression tactics.

        2. non sequitur.

          Marc Elias filed law suits to changed election laws and procedures that have been in place for centuries.
          If you do not like that CHANGE THE LAW.

          When you use the courts to legislate – you violate the rule of law.

    3. You might want to refresh yourself with Article I, Section 4, Clause 1 of the US Constitution. Let’s see if the courts rule correctly.

  9. By the way for all those in government and all private citizens, we do not nor ever had a Democracy!! We have a Constitutional Republic. A big difference. The Dems always play on words! Most Republicans are just dumb! But read the Founding Father’s Constitution, and learn something. Read the whole document, you’ll see how corrupt the Democrats really are. Just read it!! Even our own politicians don’t know the Constitution. They take an Oath to honor it and then do the opposite. Hold them to account for their corrupt policies and how they twist the words to suit what they want to do.just read it. They have pocket size ones. Please read it!

    1. The Trump cult can read it all day, doesn’t mean they understand it. The term is new by standards written by far-right politicians who are anti-democratic it provides an ideological justification by being anti-democracy itself.

  10. Fetterman and his handlers knew or should have known this law has been on the books for two years. Did the state legislature debate this provision on it’s constitutionality before it was passed? Since they have obviously banked on the mail-in ballots being their ticket to success, they should have committed resources to educating the voters on what the law requires for their mail-in ballot to be counted.

    1. RE:”Fetterman and his handlers knew or should have known ,,” Of course they knew. That’s the gambit. Get an injunction. Hold up the count, and more. Debate was purposefully rejected until early voting was well underway in PA such that the ‘real’ candidate and his shortcomings would only be revealed at the very last moment. Too late to change course for many in the electorate. If he prevails, he will be the useful tool suggested elsewhere in these pages, his ship’s course being guided by a pilot, perhaps his wife, providing he doesn’t satisfy the statistical likelihood that an individual with his history of cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disease will experience another event which will further disable him or cause his demise.

      1. I am so sick of the left’s cheating and lies! I am sick of this government taking away free speech as if they have that right! I am sick o our elections taking days and weeks to count just so these maggot Dems can do their cheating. If people don’t stand up to this already Fascist country we will no longer be individuals and free! Do not allow this government to step all over our Constitutional Rights that they don’t even give a shit about! We need to stand and fight back!! Enough of them all. A Nazi country is not acceptable! These maggots are infesting our country!!

      2. We’re not voting for his mail order bride! A foreigner! This is America!! If his wife wants to run, tell her to get her fat ass in gear and campaigne for herself!

    2. Fetterman did nit do this, the corrupt Dems told him what to do. Look who his lawyers are! Corrupt as hell! This should not stand! People of Pa should REVOLT!! Do nit allow the Dems to drag out an election again. This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! ONE DAY ELECTIONS! That’s it!!

      1. This has already been settled . SCOTUS ruled two monts ago all ballots undated are to be put aside and not counted . Then county election officials were going to ignor that order when the Pa Surpreme court and stated all ballots are to be set aside and not counted period . Don’t think Elias can overturn this .

      2. The answer is to go a one day ‘announcement’ period. All states have election month preceding the announcement.

        Make senatorial elections federal, congressional elections statewide & take away the possibility for gerrymandering.

        1. “Make senatorial elections federal, congressional elections statewide & take away the possibility for gerrymandering.”

          Huh? Please elaborate on what making “senatorial elections federal” means, please, along with “congressional elections statewide”? What on earth does this nuttiness mean?? And how many Constitutional Amendments to the U.S. Constitution would be required?

          The likelihood that whatever this person is proposing could/would happen is somewhere between “slim” and “none.” And “Slim” just skipped town!

          1. The amount of amendments necessary? Exactly the right amount to take an electoral system out of the archaic.

            Agreed with your prognostication of chances of it happening are between slim and none. There isn’t the political will in the nation to make elections work in the modern day.

    3. Listen if people are too stupid to read their ballots on what to do, they lose their vote! How many times does an election have to go through the same shit!! This is a one day election. Count what u have and that’s it!! I’m tired of the dumb Dems cheating! If you’re that dumb, just maybe you shouldn’t vote, since you probably just listen to others to make your decision on who to vote for! Stop with the cheating!

    4. Mailin voting is not constitutional in PA – there are 4 separate provisions of the PA constitution that prohibit it.

      Yet the PA Scotus has allowed it.

      BTW the Federal courts already ruled on this – all the way to the US supreme court.

      What MAY happen – has already happened in PA, is that the unsigned or undated ballots are segregated – but not destroyed.
      If the eleciton is close, Fetterman gets some PA judge to order the segregated ballots counted.

      That happens before an appeals court can reject the lower court order, And the appeals court then decides what is done is done and the issue is moot.

      Undated ballots are illegal in PA – but once counted , they can not be removed.

      1. That happens before an appeals court can reject the lower court order, And the appeals court then decides what is done is done and the issue is moot.

        This is the master strategy for all unconstitutional acts, made famous by Obama; Just Do It…Litigate It…Ignore The Courts As Long As Possible…Mission Accomplished!

        1. Did PA repeal their constitution ? Then Mailin voting would still be unconstitutional – Yes ?

          Regardless, AGAIN Read PA Act 77 – what it describes has ZERO resemblance to what actually is currently occuring in PA.

          There is small hope of a fix in 2023 – we just had a Supreme court Justice die.
          He will be replaced by voters in 2023. That will still leave a 4:3 left wing nut court.

        2. Assuming you can get arround the contituional problems which you can not.

          PA Act 77 has a very limited provision for mailin voting. It was never intended to be more than a small part of the election.

          Act 77 only allows those who can not vote in person and do not qualify for Absentee ballots to vote by Mail.
          Please actually read the laws you comment on.

          It requires a potential mailin voter to come to the country elections office IN PERSON to register as a mailin voter.
          There is no provision for online registration for mailin voting – that was a creation of the PA SOS and PA SCOTUS from thin air.

          Once you have registered – which includes presenting photo ID in person,
          THEN and only then can you request a mailin ballot from the state. Again a process that was entirely ignored in 2020 and 2022.
          You can – if you qualify, register IN PERSON for permanent mailin voting status.

          There are some additional provisions in the law to deal with people who are enable to come to the county election office – but those require sworn affadavits – again delivered to the county elections office.

          Regardless, PA act 77 is either unconstitutional – which is correct, in which case the discussion is moot.
          Or it must be followed as written – which it is clearly not.

        1. Not according to the plain language of the PA constitution.

          Something is not constitutional because some person. or several people said it is – no matter what position they hold.

          If PA SC found tomorow that people could murder their neighbors on Friday that would not make it legal or constitutional.

          The PA SC is trusted and followed – because they follow the constitution and the law.

          If they do not – they are just a bunch of lawless old men and women bringing chaos on the state.

        2. I have told you repeatedly when you did not like the law or constitution – change the law, or change the constitution.

          That only works if you have the rule of law not man.
          You can tel that you have the rule of man not law – that you are lawless, when that can not longer work.

          Teh PA constitution already prohibits mailin elections – atleast 3 separate ways.

          I can not fix the bad decision by the PA SC by changing the constitution. The constitution already bars mailin elections.
          Saying that a 4th or 5th way will not change PA SC’s decision – as they have already made clear – no matter what the words in the constitution they will make them mean whatever they want.

          I can not fix the PA SC bad decision to mangle ACT 77. Act 77 requires mailin voters to request mailin ballots in person. It requires them to return them to the county election office by mail or in person. There are no provisions for ballot boxes of any kind in the law.
          There are no provisions to mass mail ballots to anyone. And on and on.
          Writing a new law will not change PA SC’s decision – as they have already made clear – the law will mean whatevr they say – regardless of what is actually written.

          This is why judges right or left are barred from legislating from the bench.
          This is why the cannons of statutory construction exist.

          This why the PA SC exemplifies lawlessness. The rule of man not law.

  11. My oh my, the actual wait time to vote in Atlanta to vote is under two minutes. As reported no one is dying of thirst or hunger. Turn out is at an all time record high. So much for voter suppression due to the terrible inconvenience of voting. Oh the tempest in a teapot!

    1. RE:”Oh the tempest in a teapot!” One can only hope that many of them have read Candace Owens writings and, having done so, have successfully armored themselves against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. No longer feeling deprived, on account of having been told they were deprived, by those who would have them deprived, and make it so. .

  12. I knew today would be nuts, but this is all off the hook. Unbelievable, all of it, from this to, ‘it’s supposed to take weeks to count votes’, to ‘red mirage’. Is there any word for American Democrats other than ‘evil’?

  13. Jonathan: So what else is in the news this election day? Yes, it’s Donald Trump. He loves to dominate the news even when what he says involves character assassination or he makes statements that get him into more legal hot water.

    During a rally in Ohio yesterday Trump again tried to dehumanize Nancy Pelosi. He called her an “animal”–a longtime grudge Trump has against the Speaker because she presided over the two impeachments. Trump’s attack comes after a Trump supporter tried to bash in the skull of Paul Pelosi. The Trumpster has no shame!

    Then Trump spent the weekend providing the DOJ with an admission that gives them even more reason to indict the former president. At a rally on Sunday in Miami Trump claimed the FBI violated his 4th Amendment rights when it searched Mar-a-Lago and then added this kicker: “Presidents leave, they take things, they take documents, they take things, they read them. Nobody else has gone through this”. Trump is right on one thing. No other president has taken official docs with him when he left office–especially over 100 “top secret” docs–and then refused to turn them over even when he was served with a subpoena. That’s definitely a first! So Trump’s “everybody does it” defense is just BS and his admission that he unlawfully took thousands of official docs will no doubt be part of the DOJ case if they choose to indict No. 45. Count on the Trumpster to be his own worst enemy!

    1. Trump is right on one thing. No other president has taken official docs with him when he left office–especially over

      There is a letter from Obama to the National Archives. It states he Storing Presidential documents, including classified documents and digitizing them.

      So yes, all Presidents have taken classified documents

      The question you and others always ignore. Who exactly, has the power to claim the President has not declassified everything?

      1. Iowan2: You people on the right and MAGA supporters invariably get your facts wrong. You deal in false conspiracy theories. So here are the FACTS.

        According to NARA at the end of the Obama administration the agency took “legal and physical custody of Obama Presidential records” per the PRA. Approximately 30 million pages pages of unclassified material was moved to a Chicago facility, the Hoffman Estates and a former furniture store. But at all times the material was controlled by NARA not Obama. In a statement NARA said: “The Obama Foundation agrees to transfer up to $3,300,000 to the National Archives Trust to support the move…”. But Obama never had physical control of material stored in the Chicago facility. It was always under the care, control and custody of NARA while Obama was building his presidential library.

        So my statement stands uncontroverted while you have egg on your face because you rely on Fox News and right-wing conspiracy blogs. Trump is the only former president to have unlawfully taken classified and unclassified material back to Mar-a-Lago, an unapproved NARA storage facility, and then refused to return that material that was under subpoena. No other president has done that. So you comment here at your peril if you rely on Fox News and others on the right that peddled your false claims!

    2. You just let the Democrat propganda machine shovel crap lies into your brain and you slop it all up and regurgitate it out. Pitiful dupe.

    3. Dennis: you are SO right. I watched about one minute of the Trump speech, and it was rife with lie after lie. He keeps harping about other presidents “taking” documents–the NARA blew that one right out of the water–they went back to the period even before Bush I, and confirmed that no other president had ever taken official presidential documents–they were all turned over to the NARA pursuant to law. He brought up the Bill Clinton “socks drawer” lie. Bill Clinton was interviewed by a presidential historian for a book he was writing, and he recorded their conversations with permission. The interviewer offered Clinton a copy of the tapes, and he accepted them and put them in a drawer somewhere. Republicans tried to get the tapes from the NARA, and they were informed that the tapes were the personal property of the interviewer–they were not presidential records because they had nothing to do with official presidential business–it was an interview with an author–so the NARA didn’t have a copy. Yet, the fat liar keeps harping about it and the disciples keep on believing the lie. He cites this as proof of his victimhood.

      As to the 4th Amendment lie–the NARA, FBI and DOJ did everything possible to avoid the necessity of obtaining a search warrant in order to compel the return of the presidential records Trump stole and lied about. They can’t just allow top secret material to be floating around a property in which all sorts of people come and go. Trump was told before he was put out of the White House not to take papers. And, he had very well-qualified and competent counsel who gave the proper advice, which he promptly ignored. They started with a simple request–some papers were returned, but not all. Next, the subpoena, to which his attorney responded with a misrepresentation, under oath, that all documents were returned. That left the NARA, DOJ and FBI with no choice except to get a search warrant or stand by and allow for the possibility that our national secrets might be stolen because Trump has no respect for the rule of law or the risk of exposing our sources and methods. Trump and his fans should be ashamed that he is a proven thief and liar, but they aren’t: that’s the real story about Trump that historians will puzzle over for decades: how did Trump uproot patriotism and respect for the rule of law and replace it with the ego needs of a malignant narcissist and chronic liar who lives for power, adulation and cheering crowds of stupid people who believe one lie after another? Trump has raised millions of dollars by portraying himself as a “victim” of the “deep state”–defined as governmental workers who are devoted to the American people instead of a former reality television performer with a tender ego who demands cheering, praise and attention. The rest of the world remains stunned that such a person is still on the news every single day and wonder why he won’t just shut up and go away–consistent with the wishes of the majority of the American people.

    4. Given that Pelosi presided over two faux and lawless impeachments – Trump’s ire is justified.

      Trump;s first impeachment was for doing things Biden did both as VP and now as President.

    5. A Democrats chocked a latino Trump supporter yesterday.
      Another Threw a soda can at Ted Cruz.
      Another shot at the home of a Republican candidate – while his children were home.
      Kari Lakes campaign head quarters had threats and envelopes with white powder mailed to it.
      This is all in the last week.

      So some left wing nut illegal alien drug adict with a long rap sheet, with BLM and LGBTQIA+ flags on his bus/home attacks Paul Pelosi and you left wing nuts cry politics ?

    6. “Trump is right on one thing. No other president has taken official docs with him when he left office–especially over 100 “top secret” docs–and then refused to turn them over even when he was served with a subpoena. ”

      False. President retain their all access security clearance after leaving office. They retain government offices – usually within their home.
      Those offices contain a SCIF for classified documents – because ex-presidents often access classified documents.

      Separate from the millions of documents Obama has stored in a furniture warehouse in Chicago, he also has a much smaller stash at or near his home.

      You do not seem to grasp that the PRA makes NARA the temporary custodian of presidential documents – until the ex-president has the fascilities to handle them – usually a presidential library – which is private and controlled by the ex-president.
      And contains all their presidential records – including classified ones.

      There are many cases in which an ex-president has been required to provide the current government with access to the presidential records of the ex-president.

      There is ZERO, ZIP, NADA, cases in which an ex-president was required to surrender their presidential papers.

      If you issue a subpeona and YOU think it was not followed – Subpeona’s are issued by lawyers – not courts.
      Then you go to court to enforce it. And the court decides if your subpeona is valid and if the party subpeona’d has complied.
      And only if the subpeona is valid AND the party subpeona’d is determined BY THE COURT to have failed to comply – then and only then will a court issue and ORDER. Only that ORDER is legally binding.

      1. John Say: Before you make legal pronouncements you need to go to law school. You falsely claim: “Subpoena’s (sic) are issued by lawyers–not courts”. Civil and Criminal procedures specify that lawyers can request a subpoena but the a judge has to approve the subpoena–in this case the subpoena approved by Judge Reinhardt. I’m sure he would laugh loudly if he read your bizarre statement! Once again you don’t know what you are talking about!

        1. “Before you make legal pronouncements you need to go to law school. You falsely claim: “Subpoena’s (sic) are issued by lawyers–not courts”. Civil and Criminal procedures specify that lawyers can request a subpoena but the a judge has to approve the subpoena”
          False – you are refering to a warrant.
          Courts do not approve subpeona’s

          There are some specific requirements for a subpeona – there must be a case, and the judge must of allowed discovery (civil)

          Subpeona’s can be issued by any party in a lawsuit – even people representing themselves Pro Se.
          They do not require prior approval by the court.

          You question my experience – I have personally issued many subpeona’s – not a single one was reviewed by a judge before issue.

          YOU are ignorant of the law.

          “in this case the subpoena approved by Judge Reinhardt.”
          No Reinhardt approved a Warrant request. Those are entirely different, apply only to criminal matters, and are enforceable by FORCE – i.e. the FBI raiding your property.

          “Once again you don’t know what you are talking about!”

          Dennis – it is self evident that You do not know what you are talking about.

          The subpeona that Trump purportedly did not comply with was issued by a DOJ attorney as part of GJ proceedings.

          That attorney has ZERO power to enforce that subpeona without going to court – where Trump’s lawyers will argue many things,
          That they complied.
          That the subpeona is invalid,
          outside the scope of the matter in conflict.
          that it is overly broad,

          The end result will be a decision by the court – either against the party issuing the subpeona, or a court order enforcing all or part of the subpeona.

          Court orders can be enforced by FORCE, depending on how they are written. As an example I can get a local sheriff to enforce a court order.

          YOU clearly have no idea what the difference between a subpeona, a court order and a warrant is.

          YOU need to go back to law school.

          Regardless, I would advice that BEFORE making a fool of yourself – that you actually Check your facts.

          Given that you have no clue what district Reinhardt is in, and where the subpeona came from all you are doing is embarrassing yourself.

  14. The opportunity to challenge the promulgated election law was not on the eve of the vote. It should have been done upon the moment the legislation was passed. Only a candidate, a constituency, and a political party, and its legal counsel, besotted by ethical and moral turpitude, would embark on such an endeavor now. The threat to democracy lies in their sullied hands. All who acted as surrogates for this candidate, including, but not limited to the current President and his former President own it.

    1. I posted this. I don’t know why my screen signature was not included!!: “The opportunity to challenge the promulgated election law was not on the eve of the vote. It should have been done upon the moment the legislation was passed. Only a candidate, a constituency, and a political party, and its legal counsel, besotted by ethical and moral turpitude, would embark on such an endeavor now. The threat to democracy lies in their sullied hands. All who acted as surrogates for this candidate, including, but not limited to the current President and his former President own it.

    2. This issue has been to court atleast 6 times so far.
      It has been tot he PA Supreme court – and Democrats lost.
      It has been before the US supreme court – and democrats lost.

      It is time for SANCTIONS against the lawyers.

  15. In a world where Sidney Powell and Rudy Guiliani are election lawyers Turley thinks Elias is the one who is “controversial.”

    1. No so little. You have forgotten that Elias was the lawyer who helped create RussiaGate for Hillary Clinton. When it comes to propaganda Sidney Powell and Rudy Guiliani don’t hold a candle to this sleazy lawyer. Elias is doing what he always does by helping Fetterman to be the next great election denier. Will you be with Fetterman when he denies the result of the election? Of course you will.

      1. TIT: how many times do you have to be reminded to stop lying about the impetus for the Mueller investigation? HRC had nothing to do with it–an Australian diplomat was told in a pub in England that her e-mail account had been hacked and that Russians had access to it, and he contacted US Intelligence about it–that’s how it started. Why do you keep on believing lies and repeating them?

    2. No lawyer has done more to destroy and corrupt elections more than Elias.
      No lawyer has successfully mangled election laws more than Elias.
      No lawyer is more intimately involved in political dirty tricks more than Elias.

    3. Oh no. Election denial! Get out the pitchforks, man the digital battlestations, and start digging latrines for 72 genders in your back yard to assist the coming war effort.

  16. Your late gramps always voting democrat isn’t funny anymore.
    The hard left doesn’t have a sense of humor to go along with their sense of ruling entitlement.
    The hurt is universal and Dems did it.

    1. Trump call to Garland xmas 22: “Thanks, Merrick. Couldn’t have done it without your help.”

      1. bill McWilliams, for once you are correct. Lets stop for a minute to think about who reappointed Merrick Garland. Well my oh my, it was Joe Biden. On xmas 22 Trump will be making a call but the person to which he is expressing gratitude to will be the one and only Joe Biden.

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