April Ryan, CNN political analyst and White House correspondent for The Brio, has long been known for raw political statements in press conferences. She is an example of the “advocacy journalism” movement that is sweeping the industry with the rejection of “objectivity” as a core value. Nevertheless, she has been repeatedly honored by the media, including her selection as “Journalist of the Year” by the National Association of Black Journalists. That brand of journalism was on display yesterday when Ryan shocked many by repeating the disproven allegation against border agents accused of whipping migrants.
Ryan was repeating a false story from 2021 that has been debunked over and over again. The media went into a frenzy over a false story accusing mounted officers of whipping undocumented migrants near Del Rio, Texas, on Sept. 19, 2021.
A photographer captured the scene, which showed agents using bridle reins to guide their skittish horses. The entire videotape clearly shows the agents using the reins on their mounts, not on the migrants. Not only did the photographer quickly deny seeing any officers whip migrants, the videotape clearly refuted that allegation. However, for many in politics and the media it did not matter because it played into a racial-justice claim of the “whipping (of) Haitian asylum seekers.”
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) condemned “the inappropriate use of what appear to be whips by Border Patrol officers on horseback to intimidate migrants.” Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) decried “images of inhumane treatment of Haitian migrants by Border Patrol — including the use of whips.” Vice President Kamala Harris emoted on “The View” about how the brutality “invoked images of some of the worst moments of our history, where that kind of behavior has been used against the Indigenous people of our country, it has been used against African Americans during times of slavery.” Reps. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) and Ayanna Pressley (D-Mass.) described the incident as “worse than what we witnessed in slavery” and “white supremacist behavior.”
President Biden rushed to express his own revulsion and rage, too: “It was horrible what — to see, as you saw — to see people treated like they did: horses nearly running them over and people being strapped. It’s outrageous. I promise you, those people will pay.”
At the time, some of us objected that the president had, once again, declared the guilt of accused persons without evidence or investigation. The possible innocence of these officers simply did not matter to the president or to many in the press.
Despite being tasked with an investigation, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas joined the condemnations of the agents, saying that their conduct “defies all of the values that we seek to instill in our people.” He then promised swift justice with an investigation that would take “days, not weeks” — yet the investigation dragged on for months.
The Administration delayed the results of the findings but eventually admitted that there was no such whipping. It still said it would punish the agents for other violations in what some of us viewed as a face-saving measure for President Biden.
The media quickly gave grudging acknowledgment that it had pushed another false story and moved on. But not Ryan. After all, why should media and government investigations block a false story when it advances a useful narrative?
U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas was discussing the surge of migrants at the border when Ryan offered a signature moment in asserting that agents were found to be “whipping” Haitian migrants crossing the U.S. southern border in 2021.
Even Mayorkas, who joined the mob in presuming the guilt of the agents, balked at the fact that Ryan was repeating an allegation that colleagues now admitted was absolutely false.
Ryan stated “the southern border is not just Mexicans. It is Haitians, it’s Africans, as we have seen, particularly with that issue with the Haitians being whipped with the reins on the horses.”
Mayorkas gently noted that Ryan was repeating a known false story: “Well, let me just correct you right there because actually the investigation concluded that the whipping did not occur.”
Ryan appears incensed and stated “I’m sorry, I saw it differently. They were whipped with something from the horse – reins from the horse. Maybe either the video or picture was fixed, but what I saw was totally different. I’m sorry.”
Mayorkas again noted “Yeah, I’m gonna leave you as corrected.”
Ryan did not back down. It appears that facts have become entirely immaterial to media coverage.
After going back and researching, Ryan again told her readers that the whipping occurred, posting a photo from the 2021 encounter, saying, “Maybe its [sic] just me but!”
She followed with two other tweets, one posting another photo, with her own caption, “And one more the reign is how close or on the person?” She subsequently retweeted herself to cast aspersions on the federal investigation and claim, “Oh let me post this again especially after a White House official just told me they question the report too.”
However, Ryan can be assured after her latest tweet, It is not “just her.”
NB: For full disclosure, Ryan teaches at George Washington University, where I also teach.
With the refrain “Objectivity has got to go”, advocacy journalism clearly and wholly rejects the ideal of objectivity. Like propaganda it often exists purely for particularly defined social or political purposes that advance particular ideological causes. Advocacy journalism is prone to be propaganda and advocacy journalists are prone to being propagandists. Those who think they know the subtleties of propaganda and that they can never be swayed or victimized by it need to keep in mind how easily it pervades and infects their ability to reason. Like propaganda one should always be alert to advocacy journalism and rationalize it for what and why it does what it does.
Ron A. Hoffman,
Turley is employed by Fox News. Their entire business model is based on advocacy journalism. He never criticizes Fox News for how shamefully they practice advocacy journalism.
“Advocacy journalism is prone to be propaganda and advocacy journalists are prone to being propagandists.”
This is what Fox News is.
“Those who think they know the subtleties of propaganda and that they can never be swayed or victimized by it need to keep in mind how easily it pervades and infects their ability to reason.”
And that is a great example of who Fox News viewers are. They are burdened by massive bouts of cognitive dissonance as a result.
Svelaz, that was expected and appropriate of you to rail against FOX News. That you did not add CNN and MSNBC to it, however, has me concerned. I hope it doesn’t mean that you are among those who ignore CNN’s and MSNBC’s advocacy journalism and propaganda and thus have your reasoning abilities infected by it as a result.
Ron A. Hoffman, CNN and msnbc also practice advocacy journalism, only because Fox News does. Fox News started the trend. They set the standard.
So then does that mean you are accepting of CNN’s and MSNBC’s propaganda? If the “standard” is wrong for one than isn’t it wrong for all?
Ron A. Hoffman, they don’t engage in propaganda. What you think is propaganda coming from those networks is what Fox News tells you it is. That is how propaganda works. Fox News has convinced you and many others of that idea. Remember, their propaganda was exposed as a result of the Dominion lawsuit.
That’s how so many people came to believe the election was “stolen” and “fraudulent”. Fox News pundits and executives privately knew that the claims were false, but knowingly and willfully kept pushing the narrative. That’s propaganda.
CNN and MSNBC are guilty of advocacy journalism like everyone else. But Fox News is in a league of its own because propaganda and advocacy journalism is their business model. They literally admitted it in evidence released by dominion.
Do you agree that Fox News engages in advocacy journalism and propaganda? If so why the lack of criticism?
Svelaz, one only needs to watch CNN and MSNBC for five minutes before the propaganda begins to spew.
Svelaz, I would suggest that you define the difference between a representation of fact,
And argument,
a point of view,
an oppinion,
advocacy
misinformation
….
and propoganda.
The classic definition – before left wing nuts took over the dictionary is that propoganda is from the government,
and usually involves the supression of competing views.
Fox is not government, MSNBC is not government.
I thionk the quality of journalism and oppinion on CNN/MSNBC is pathetic.
Fox is somewhat better, but still not anything I would hold in high regard.
But the way you are using propoganda is sloppy.
This is another common theme with you.
You do not argue with facts.
You argue with spin, inuendo, vague and unspecific naked assertions.
It is often difficult to respond because it is impossible to know what you mean.
You make vague generalized claims that are likely to be true somewhere sometime. But equally unlikely to be true in the general way stated.
Why am I or anyone else required to answer your questions about Fox or anything else ?
It is not like you ever answer a straight question with a straight answer.
Further why am I or anyone else required to criticise every entity that does something you do not like.
Fox does not engage in propoganda nor does the MSM – except to the extent they are government captured.
‘
I beleive Musk recently flagged NPR and the BBC as propoganda
That is correct.
Is fox engaged in advocacy on its opinion shows ? Of course !
Why do you require that I criticise that ?
We expect advocacy on the editorial page.
The problem with CNN etc is not that they engage in advocacy.
It is that they hare and have been WRONG so frequently – constantly.
And that they have lost touch – like you , with FACTS and reality.
CNN hosted a townhall with Trump recently.
CNN is making a serious effort to shed its left wing nonsense and appeal to a broader audience.
They must do so or die. I suspect they will fail. It is just not in their DNA to be able to fairly provide both sides of anything.
Regardless they deserve credit for trying.
I will note that Fox, and Carlson in particular has ALWAYS been willing to allow both sides to present their arguments.
Carlson offered Dominion the oportunity to address Powell’s election claims. Dominion refused.
Another reason Fox did not and could not defame DVS.
Regardless, quite often lefties do appear on Fox – Kudos to them, Kudos to fox
And Kudos to CNN for trying.
The CNN moderator threw hardballs, and Trump hit them out of the park.
He owned the Town hall, he was on top of everything.
Trump is NOT that much younger than Biden. But he is OBVIOUSLY 1000 times more competent.
Even if you disagree with him, He not only managed to speek in complete sentences = including finishing them and not getting lost in day dreams from 60 years ago, It is increasingly hard to accuse Biden of lying – it is unlikely he knows the truth. While he has always told tall tales about the past.
Today it is likely he beleives them – when he can remember.
The contrast was incredible.
Trump AND DeSantis are both up +7 against Biden,
and it would take a miracle for Biden to significantly improve.
Though I have heard that Biden is now implimenting a permutation of Trump’s remain in Mexico policy now that Title 42 has expired.
The “new” Biden border policy:
You cross illegally, you are immediately deported and can not try to get in for 5 years.
You must apply for Asylum from your country or the first safe country on your way to the US.
Once you have been allowed to apply you must cross legally at a port of entry.
The only Big change from Trump policies is Biden is planing on granting 30,000/month assylum.
Under Trump and Obama that number was 30,000/year.
You must have a sponsor.
While this is still lawless – none of this conforms with US immigration law.
There are strict standards for asylum that are hard to meet.
To be clear – I think we should grant asylum more easily.
It is still a vast improvement. So Biden is being attacked on the left.
Svelaz, the Media had a left tilt LOONG before Fox.
It was not as bad 40 years ago as it is today.
But the left bias is not new.
Fox did not start it.
Fox was created BECAUSE such a large portion of Americans were aware of and bothered by the bias of the media at the time and wanted news that if not unbaised was atleast not baised against them.
Fox did not set the standard. Fox took advantage of the bias of the MSM to steal their market from them.
That would not have happened had the MSM been even close to unbiased at the time.
You constantly assume that all of us were born yesterday.
Many of the great journalists of the past – who are greatly respected by many of us. Are also people that we all KNEW at the time leaned left.
Not Bat$hit crazy left like we see today, but still to the left.
Of course the left has gotten so extreme today that they would be called radical conservatives today.
You constantly assume that all of us were born yesterday.
Yes, with the left, each new day starts anew with no historical moorings.
50 First Dates meets Groundhog’s Day
I do not agree with many Trump/MAGA policies. But the claim that republicans today are more extreme than the past is absurd.
No one who was not born yesterday or willfully blind would claim that.
John B. Say,
“ It was not as bad 40 years ago as it is today.
But the left bias is not new.
Fox did not start it.”
40 years ago the right wasn’t dominated by the extreme right and the fringe nut jobs of today. The conservatives of 40 years ago consisted of people that the current crop of “conservatives” deride as RINOs.
The only reason the left seems extreme is because the right has been overtaken by the fringe nut jobs of the right. Everything to the left of them is deemed bad. Even conservatives who have some liberal views. Republicans like Liz Chaney, Kitzinger, Romney, even the late Sen. McCain. Are deemed “leftist” by today’s Republican dominant conservatives. It’s the normalization of the fringe and extremists on the right that makes everything and anything to the left “extreme”.
“ Fox did not set the standard. Fox took advantage of the bias of the MSM to steal their market from them.”
No, Fox did set the standard. They created the advocacy journalism model to help amplify ideas and views of the right. They had to convince viewers first. Their success was not unnoticed by the other networks and the only way they could compete was to emulate their model. Fox News ‘stole’ market share by pushing advocacy journalism to the forefront and embraced it as their business model.
“ You constantly assume that all of us were born yesterday.”
Nope. That’s YOUR assumption. I assume, correctly, that you may just be badly misinformed or are just willfully ignorant on certain subjects or issues as a result of Fox News or other right leaning networks who feed off of Fox News propaganda and advocacy journalism. Even right leaning think tanks engage in propaganda that is simply repeated by Fox News and similar leaning networks. That’s not saying the left does not do it. They just don’t do it as “extreme” as you think they do. Remember, anything and everything to the left of the dominant crop of “conservatives” in the Republican Party including republicans is considered extreme left.
“ Many of the great journalists of the past – who are greatly respected by many of us. Are also people that we all KNEW at the time leaned left.
Not Bat$hit crazy left like we see today, but still to the left.
Of course the left has gotten so extreme today that they would be called radical conservatives today.”
The only reason they seem extreme is as I said, anything and everything to the left of the current dominant members of the Republican Party today is considered extreme. That is the result of successful propaganda from the right and Fox News has had a big hand in that. That you view the left as extreme as it is is proof of their success in getting you to believe their propaganda.
Svelaz, and 40 years ago the left wasn’t dominated by the extreme left and the fringe nut jobs of today. You say, “The left only seems extreme.” That’s absurd. Try inching yourself back toward the middle asap before you are lost for all time.
Everything to the left of the is extreme right now.
Even the Biden admin is trying to figure out how to back pedal out of the disaster of their policies without alienating the left that is their base.
The Views of MAGA republicans – whether you agree with them or not are not at all “extreme”.
Secure borders, law and order, a Strong military that is NOT used to police the world or engage in nation building.
A military focused on its mission of being the best deadliest most intimidating militayr in the world, not some social experiement.
A govenrment that looks after citizens BEFORE foreigners.
I do not share many MAGA positions, but my disagreement does not make them “extreme”.
I view the left as extreme because they ARE.
Sexualizing Children is Extreme.
Defunding the police is extreme and proved stupid.
Democrats border policies are extreme – regardless of whether you support more immigatiuon – what we have now is a complete disaster.
We had to listen to the left rant about “kids in cages” under Trump – dispite the saft that the cages and photos were from the Obama admin.
Those crossing the border today are being raped, and abused and arive here to be exploited by Drug Dealers and human traffickers.
Many are dying or even being killed along the way.
The very people you claim you Want to come to the country are being exploited and abused as a result of YOUR polices.
But I guess it is OK for illegal immigrants to be raped and exploited – so long as they do not get stopped or deported.
Even the Biden administration understands they are in deep trouble over this and is trying to figure out how to stem the flood without appearing to re-instate the Trump policies that worked.
Nor does this address the massive inflow of drugs, as well as unknown numbers of terrorists, and Drug Gang members.
Regardless, You have made a mess of US border security and pretty much everyone knows it.
You have separately made a mess of the economy. Biden inherited 1.4% inflation and 6% growth.
Now we have 6% inflation and 1.4% growth – the highest inflation since the stagflation of the 70’s and the weakest growth possibly ever.
Even Obama managed 1.6%. Trump managed to average over 2% even with the Covid economic shock.
Every president since Carter has involved the US in a War – Except Trump.
Trump exaggerated that he could end the Ukraine war in 24hrs. But I doubt it would take more than a week to get a cease fire and a month or two to get Peace.
The left’s weaponization of Government is extreme. The left claims Trump’s CNN townhall was a disaster – which it was.
Trump not only solidified his Republican support, but contra reporting he made a very successful appeal to moderate voters.
Many pundits – including lots of those on the left grasp that Biden is in a worse position right now than Trump was in 2020.
Many Many many people voted against Trump in 2020 – because of the relentless negative press, and because they beleived the nonsensical claims that Trump was extreme. No one voted FOR Biden. Though they did expect based on Biden’s track record that he would be moderate. That he actually would reach accross the aisle. He has FAILED in every possible way.
He has needlessly proven far more divisive that Trump. He has furthered the political weaponization of government.
Whether he is viewed as a criminal or not, he is obviously corrupt.
You just can not compare Trump’s business dealings with Biden’s without Biden looking corrupt.
His programs have proven disasterous.
The average family gained 3500/yr in income under Trump and they have lost 4500/yr under Biden.
We have rising crime, rising drug problems, rising problems of all kinds.
Biden is arguably the worst president in US history – and there is no prospect of improvement any time soon.
Trump was painted as a failure. Biden is an actual failure – no paint necescary.
I beleive Trump is now running +7 against Biden. Even Desantis is now easily beating Biden.
If Biden expects to get re-elected, there is one critical thing he must do – that is FIX the mess he has created.
And there is no chance he can do that.
In all probability things will get worse – possibly MUCH worse.
It is highly unlikely we are done with bank failures. It is probable that we are only at the start of them.
We have a large commercial realestate problem about to burst.
Inflation is stubornly refusing to go below 6% – and is not likely to without a severe recession.
Doing the right thing means causing that recession NOW, not later. Biden SHOULD have allowed it in 2022, but instead used inflation to hold the senate, which means the problem will be worse later.
And I have not begun to address the anti-free speech, woke nonsense including perving our kids.
It is not the right that is extreme.
It is not FOX that persuades us the LEFT is extreme.
You have done that all by yourself.
Before left wing nuts took over the meaning of words propaganda was exclusive to Government.
Most everyone advocates for their views. Some people LIE to advance their views.
But actual propoganda requires Government.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
“40 years ago the right wasn’t dominated by the extreme right and the fringe nut jobs of today.”
I beleive you have previously posted that you wer not born yesterday.
Yet from your claims about the past one would not know that.
I have already provided extensive proof that even the ordinary republican of the 60’s 70’s and 80’s was/is to the right of Trump significantly.
“The conservatives of 40 years ago consisted of people that the current crop of “conservatives” deride as RINOs.”
Your delusional. David Duke was 40 years ago, Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms, Rehnquist Thomas, Scalia, and Alito were nominated by the Republicans you are now claiming are Rhino’s
“The only reason the left seems extreme is because the right has been overtaken by the fringe nut jobs of the right.”
AGAIN – what is it that the “right” wants in terms of policies that is “nuts” ?
Limited government ?
Secure borders ?
And end to endless wars ?
Fiscal responsibility ?
Fair Trade ?
Its not like Republicans are seeking to have people with penis’s compete in women’s sports, or in teenage girls locker rooms ?
It is not like republicans are teaching kindergarteners about Sex.
Its not like Republicans caused the highest inflation in 40 years.
Its not like Republicans used various 3 letter government agencies to rig an election.
Its not like republicans were lying to everyone about Covid.
How is it that Republicans are more fringe than democrats ?
Please identify Extreme MAGA policies that are even a fraction as bat$hit crazy as those of the left.
“Even conservatives who have some liberal views”
Turley is a liberal, Derschowitz is a liberal. Taibbi is a liberal, Barri Weis is a liberal, Glenn Greenwald is a liberal.
Many republicans have some Liberal views. I am hard pressed to think of a single one that supports anything that democrats today want.
“Republicans like Liz Chaney, Kitzinger, Romney, even the late Sen. McCain. Are deemed “leftist” by today’s Republican dominant conservatives. ”
Please cite any place that has called any of those leftists. Chenney is a neo-con. While she can not leave the GOP soon enough, she is NOT liberal.
Anti-Trump is not the same as liberal. None of the rest are progressive. I do not know any Republicans that wanted McCain or Romney out of the party.
Trump said some stupid nasty things about McCain – McCain was subsequently vindictive, that did not make him liberal or a democrats.
Trump said some stupid nasty things about Cruz too. They were able to bury the hatchet – just as Harris said some mean things about Biden.
The fact that all republicans are not lockstep and that they might even have bitter internecine fights does not make them democrats or leftists.
Many republicans were.are Angry with Pence – who is ACTUALLY more conservative than Trump. But no one was going to “hang him” not even on J6, and no one thinks he is a leftist.
Your absurd.
“It’s the normalization of the fringe and extremists on the right that makes everything and anything to the left “extreme”.”
Can you actually say this in an actually meaninful way – with real world examples ?
“No, Fox did set the standard. They created the advocacy journalism model to help amplify ideas and views of the right.”
Your not in the real world and ignorant of history. Advocacy journalism dates back tot he founding.
The left bias in journalism has been prevalent since the 60’s though it is far worse today.
“They had to convince viewers first.”
This is a completely absurd claim.
This is a common delusion of the left – that those that disagree with them are somehow manufactured.
Fox found an audience that already existed.
Trump found an audience that already existed.
Fox succeeds because it gives its audience what they want. It is well known in marketing that you can not make people want something they do not already want.
You can however influence their priorities, you can move their third priority to the top.
This is true of both the right and the left.
This is why you can not destroy the right or MAGA by destroying Trump or Fox.
“Remember, anything and everything to the left of the dominant crop of “conservatives” in the Republican Party including republicans is considered extreme left.”
Obviously false. Cheney is not on the left, Romney is not on the left, McCain is not on the left, Manchin is not on the left. Gabbard is not on the left.
Not that long ago Biden was not on the left.
Not that long ago most democrats were not on the extreme left.
You have made lots of vauge unsupported and unverifiable claims.
I have responded with facts that can be verified.
You also lost the most important test.
While there is ample evidence of large scale election fraud in 2020,
What matters most is what the declaration of independence says – when the people do not trust the government, the govenrment is not legitimate.
almost 60% of the electorate believes the 2020 election was rigged in some way.
You have LOST.
At this point the lies from the left aren’t even gaslighting anymore – they are just blatant, bald-faced lies. it is pathetic, it is sad, it astonishing that people are funding it, and it is a tad bit scary. We have entered the realm of a full-on, fascist regime with America’s modern left. that’s it. All there is to it, full stop. If you still agree with this boo sheet out of fear or ignorance, you are very much 100% a part of the problem, and our society may very well not survive your reticence/ignorance/cowardliness or any combination thereof. You are fools, and all of us may pay the price. Wake the eff up and start caring about someone other than yourself. Your virtue signaling to maintain your social standing is exactly what it sounds like.
Jonathan: It is bizarre you would accuse Black journalist, CNN’s April Ryan, of “advocacy journalism” when your employer, Fox News has practiced that for years. Apparently, you learned nothing from the successful Dominion defamation lawsuit against Fox and Rupert Murdock. After Trump’s defeat in the 2020 election Tucker Carlson and other Fox hosts pushed the false narrative that Dominion and other voting machine companies were corrupted to switch votes for Trump to Biden. Every night Fox hosts falsely echoed Trump’s lie that the election was “stolen” from him. Dominion’s big settlement against Fox exposed all the lies the media giant was pushing out to its viewers. That’s the kind of “advocacy journalism” you won’t touch because it might jeopardize your paid gig at Fox and your own version of “advocacy journalism”!
Sticking up for an ignorant, journalist, whether she is black, white, red or green is dumb. She is biased. She is known for her biases. And she is dumb. Case closed.
Dennis: amen, brother. I read this much and no more because I haven’t had lunch: “She is an example of the “advocacy journalism” movement that is sweeping the industry with the rejection of “objectivity” as a core value.”. Turley is officially a joke. Talk about seeing the splinter in your brother’s eye while ignoring the post in your own eye,. Sheesh. But, Turley is paid to attack non alt-right media.
@Gigi
I can’t find an emoji for tool, but that’s what you are. I guess a robot will do, with emphasis on the leftist hive mind: 🤖🤖🤖. If you have said or done a useful thing in your life, we’d sure love to know. Troll!
James – Gigi is obviously paid for attacking Fox News.
April Ryan is paid to lie to you and you are not paid to defend her, but you do it anyway. Why, heir of the bolsheviks? Hang-out with other like-minded morons, perhaps in an ‘education’ setting? both? What do you get out of your complete fealty to lies from the left? What does it get anyone, except april ryan and the heirs of the bolsheviks and the completely failed education community?
Gigi, I always get a kick out of an atheist using a quote from the Bible.
TIT: yes, you are so superior to me that you can accuse me of being an athiest. But, what are you? You worship and defend a malignant narcissist who is a chronic liar, who cheats on his wife, molests women, is a xenophobe, racist, misogynist, deadbeat and who started an insurrection because he can’t accept defeat.
He’s going to be #47. Brace for impact, baby.
Gigi: You have to stop hanging out with me! Notice “James” thinks you are a “robot”–part of the “leftist hive mind”. “Neil” thinks we are both “heirs to the bolsheviks” and “morons”. Thinkitthrough, as usual, uses petty nonsense–like because you used the “amen” you must be an “atheist using a quote from the Bible.” Tit doesn’t know the Bible. In Isaiah 65:16 “amen” is translated as “of truth”. Commonly, the word is used to mean “certainly”. Tit always seems to put his foot in his mouth because he never thinks things through! Pathetic and persistent name calling is the last refuge of small minds. So, Amen Sister!
Dennis, You’ll enjoy pondering this bit of self-awareness from a former lib:
“I don’t hate Democrats or progressive liberals. I used to be one. However, I’m acutely aware of how uninformed and Propagandized they are. Their Cognitive Dissonance is recognizable to me because I took the time to question mine.”
Bingo, baby. He’s talking ’bout YOU.
Okay Dennis lets just say that Fox news is biased journalism. How does that effect the fact that Ryan still believes that border agents whipped illegal immigrants. Are you now telling us that Mayorkas is a liar when he refutes Ryan’s whipping accusation. I understand. Whenever you don’t want to discuss the subject at hand you go to your “what about Fox” argument. Basically your saying that because Fox does something bad that we can do something bad too. The problem is that you really believe that you occupy the higher ground. Having said that, would you please tell us what you think of Ryan saying that a whipping happened. You gotta hand it to em. The left never misses a “Their going to put you all back in chains” moment and Dennis McIntyre stands steadfast at the ready to spread the anointed word.
Fox isn’t “journalism” at all–it is political punditry. It’s “hosts” have been proven to be liars–to wit: the Dominion lawsuit.
Rachel, Joe, Mika, Anderson, Don, Nicole, Joy, Lawrence, etc, etc, etc, are NOT flatout liars? Give me a break.
Fox evening shows are opinion- based, just like the other networks. By and large Fox is more honest and better than anything over on CNN or MSNBC — which is why their ratings are in the gutter and Fox is still the most watched and most trusted cable news channel. Fox is hemorraging viewers since firing Tucker, but still way better than any others on cable.
GiGi Fox stupidly settled a lawsuit that was a diservice to the media as a whole and threatens to create a new standard that will further destroy journalism.
Do you want Juries in Texas deciding to Clobber CNN, MSNBC, … for Lying about the Collusion delusion ?
Most of us want straight reporting – but that does not mean only reporting things that are proven beyond a doubt at the time of reporting.
If that were the case NO ONE would have been able to report on the collusion delusion.
We expect the news to report what is out there. If someone is saying the election was stolen ALL the news should be reporting on the allegations.
They should be asking tough questions – of those making the allegation.
And of those the allegation is made against.
There is a separate issue regarding Dominion. This was a Federal Election.
Elections are the responsibility of govenrment.
Government has no protection from defamation.
Nor can government buy protection from defamation by contracting out all or portions of the election.
DVS is not entitled to protection from defamation AT ALL, because they are an agent of the government.
Finally I would note – as we are slowly seeing – in the US as a whole and now repeated in court in AZ,
You can KNOW that an election was stolen – fairly quickly.
That does NOT mean you can prove precisely how hours after the election.
The DVS claim was weak from the start. Though it could have been dispensed quickly by random audits in the effected states.
Not only didn’t that occur – but democrats fought it tooth and nail.
As I have noted before out election processes are what is known as open loop. That is impossible to do without massive oportunities for error and fraud.
This is a structural problem. Not a political one – though one party always benefits from it – generally democrats in democrat areas and republicans in republican areas.
It is neither hard nor costly to actually secure elections. We are doing so badly now that improvement is trivial to accomplish.
Regardless, one means to convert the open loop process of elections into closed loop processes that are more trustworthy is random audits.
This is NOT just to check machines. It is not even to detect fraud of various kinds. it is to PREVENT fraud.
There are many factors that impact the probability of election fraud. One significant one is the likelyhood of getting caught.
Random audits do not guarantee you will get caught, but they increase the odds – where the penalty is very high.
GA had a plan for Random audits in 2020, But Raffensberger tanked it, because it would have cost $12M. He has spent many times that post election with lawsuits and other problems.
US manufacturing makes incredibly heavy use of random audits to acheive 6 Sigma production standards 3.4 errors out of 1000000.
There is an entire field of applied science and mathematics devoted to how to impliment processes with incredibly low error rates.
Random auditing is a part of that. You do not need to do a full audit like AZ did after 2020 – which found problems with nearly 1/2 of all ballots.
What is most disturbing about the 2020 AZ audit is that almost nothing was done to fix the problems found – and they became even worse in 2022.
John B. Say,
“ GiGi Fox stupidly settled a lawsuit that was a diservice to the media as a whole and threatens to create a new standard that will further destroy journalism.”
Nope. They HAD to settle. They were literally begging dominion to agree to a settlement. Because Dominion’s case was strong and Fox feared more damage to their brand by having their prime time hosts answer questions under oath. Fox knew they were not going to win the case. There was still more evidence Dominion had in store to use in front of the jury. Even Turley didn’t dare contemplate the outcome for fear of alienating his employer because he knew Fox News was not going to succeed.
“ DVS is not entitled to protection from defamation AT ALL, because they are an agent of the government.”
Pure BS. DVS is a vendor. Not an agent of government. They did not participate in the process of running the election. All they do is build voting machines. They don’t conduct tabulations or determine anything involving an election. All of that is done by the county where the purchased machines are operated.
It’s like saying because I purchased a stove from GE and anything cooked on it makes GE party to my cooking. That type of BS logic may work in your mind, but it does not in reality.
“ Nor can government buy protection from defamation by contracting out all or portions of the election.”
Government does NOT contract out any portions of the election. State and county workers do all of the work regarding elections.
“ Though it could have been dispensed quickly by random audits in the effected states.
There were random audits in affected states. Multiple audits were done. All showed no evidence of massive voter fraud. Even audits sponsored by Republicans after the previous one was not convincing enough. None confirmed any fraud significant enough to affect the outcomes.
“ Finally I would note – as we are slowly seeing – in the US as a whole and now repeated in court in AZ,
You can KNOW that an election was stolen – fairly quickly.”
Again, BS. Arizona showed republicans could not bring themselves to acknowledge that their claims of voter fraud were not true. The previous Secretary of State sat on a report proving there was no voter fraud. The current SOS disclosed what the previous Republican SOS chose to hide.
Cyber ninjas confirmed Biden won by a few more votes than originally stated.
“ This is NOT just to check machines. It is not even to detect fraud of various kinds. it is to PREVENT fraud.”
There are already measures to prevent fraud snd they have been shown to work just fine. What seems to be the real problem is you can’t satisfy paranoia regarding voter fraud.
It’s been statistically shown over and over again that the real incidence of voter fraud is rare. Trump’s lying about voter fraud and Fox News willful enabling of the lying contributes to that paranoia you seem to adhere to. The Dominion defamation case showed exactly why the voter fraud claims are mostly BS. Fox News paid $787 million to barely admit they were indeed lying to you. Fox News pundits knew they were lying to to you. The only reason why you believe the claims is precisely because you were taken for a ride by them and nobody likes to admit they’ve been had.
“All they do is build voting machines.”
They build the software.
There was massive election rigging and interference; the election was stolen. The many layers of election corruption are now plainly obvious.
“Fox News paid $787 million to barely admit they were indeed lying to you.”
Bzzzt. That’s not why they paid that absurd sum.
Now let’s talk about all the pundits who lied to YOU for 3 years (and still, today!) about Russia hacking/stealing the election from Hillary.
Voter fraud is rare. Well….except in 2016 it was rampant….Trump and Putin cheated and stole the election from Hillary!
Repeat: there was NO fraud in 2020! Our elections are safe and secure!
Well…except for in 2016 there was massive fraud….
but that got all cleaned up so elections were safe again and most secure elections in history in 2020!
Safe and secure in 2022 as well! Zero evidence of fraud!
Yes, 2016 was stolen from Hillary! Massive election rigging! Massive protests!
The angry protesters were righteous and justified!
Media endlessly repeated Hillary’s claim that the election was stolen from her!
MSNBC and CNN still perpetuate the Collusion lies to their brainwashed viewers.
Meanwhile 2020 was the safest and most secure election ever!
Biden got more “votes” than EVER in the history of the country!
You MAGA nuts will accept the results and shut up!
Sit down all you Deplorable, Domestic Terrorists, Election Deniers! YOU will not protest! YOU will not speak! YOU will not deny our election results! YOU will be targeted by your own government.
YOU will be silenced, censored, maligned, and smeared BY the illegitimate criminal sitting in the White House who is weaponizing the entire government and its proxies against you!
Dominions case was incredible weak – actuallu nonesixtant. . The leverage DVS had was a biased Judge in a bat$hit crazy jury pool.
Fox was going to have to win on appeal after a bruising trial. We have seen this repeatedly already.
Alan Derschowitz publicly offered to take the case on a contingent feee bassi – i.e Derschowitz would get paid from the legal fees he recovered from DVS – that was how bad the case was.
I would further note – not only is the case an obvious loser – but even if you proved actually right – Fox lost at trial and on appeal – the results would ultimately be bad for the LEFT and the MSM.
Lets just open the flood gates to lawsuits in TX or AL against the MSM for the myriads of lies and false reporting they engage in all the time.
But this is typical of you left wing nuts. You are incapable of seeing beyond the shiny thing in front of your eyes, to the bad consequences for you in the future.
“Dominions case was incredible weak – actuallu nonesixtant. . The leverage DVS had was a biased Judge in a bat$hit crazy jury pool.”
Of course, it’s always a biased judge or an unfair jury pool when things don’t go the way YOU expect them. Dominion had plenty of evidence to prove Malice and willful lying. The majority of legal experts pointed out Dominion indeed had a strong case. You don’t show us how “weak” it was and why. Even Turley couldn’t analyze the case because he knew Dominion’s case was strong enough to win on the merits alone.
“Fox was going to have to win on appeal after a bruising trial. We have seen this repeatedly already.”
We don’t know what additional evidence Dominion had against Fox News and that doesn’t account for any damaging revelations gleaned from dominion’s questioning of Fox News pundits on the stand.
We have not seen this already. This was entirely a new issue for Fox News because dominion had a LOT of damaging evidence, including evidence proving malice. Rupert Murdock admitted in depositions even he knew Trump’s lies were indeed lies.
Dershowitz is an idiot. He would have made things worse for Fox News. That’s why Fox News didn’t take up the offer. Fox News has more competent lawyers and they clearly knew they were not going to win the case.
“I would further note – not only is the case an obvious loser – but even if you proved actually right – Fox lost at trial and on appeal – the results would ultimately be bad for the LEFT and the MSM.”
LOL! Nope. Because it was only Fox News who continued to push known false claims that EVERYONE else was saying were false. Nobody has tried to sue CNN or MSNBC because they don’t have any evidence to prove malice and intentional lying like Fox News had against it.
The “left wing nuts” saw the obvious whereas “right wing nuts” kept avoiding it and feigned ignorance as an excuse. Which is what you are doing.
If DVS’s case was so weak why was Fox News so desperate for a settlement? If that case was as weak as you are alluding Fox News would have been happy to go to trial, right? They were the ones who were constantly trying to have the trial dismissed. Dominion continued to show to the judge why it was not dismissible every time.
“No, no,” the master said. “How many times must I tell you: the left-handed wingnuts require a right-handed monkey wrench and the right-handed wingnuts require a *left*-handed monkey wrench!”
“Of course, it’s always a biased judge or an unfair jury pool when things don’t go the way YOU expect them.”
Do you think Fox would have had any problem witnning in TX or Idaho or TN or about 95% of the country ?
Do you think Fox would have had any difficulty winning on appeal ?
Yopu really do not get it. The problems with this case have nothing to do with Fox or Dmoninion or elections or Trump.
And the reason that the Judge and Jury are a huge problem is because the vast majority of people fully understand that if this was Trump vsw Rachel Maddow the courts and Jury would have decided EXACTLY the opposite.
The judge is not biased and the Jury pool biased because they decide differently from my wishes.
They are biased because they decide differently from the law.
Because they decide differently from other courts across the nation
because they decide differently from the way the same judge and jury would decide the same case if we reverse the politics.
Trump -= as well as many others who ere defamed by the Press and the government – people like Papadoulis and CArter Page lost far worse defmation lawsuits – in some instance even had to pay attorneys fees.
They were OBVIOUSLY defamed. But not in a manner that meets ALL the requirements of the law.
The Fox case did not come close. Fox did the media as a whole – not conservatives – but CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, NYT a disservice by settling.
YOU constantly have this problem. Which is the proof of your Bias.
YOU fail the “shoe on the other foot test” – ALL THE TIME.
Everyone is sitting here debating whether there is a criminal case against Hunter Biden.
Yet you who argued that it was OBVIOUS that Paul Manafort’s conduct was illegal can’t seem to grasp that the only distinction between manafort’s conduct and Biden’s is the far larger scale of Biden’s
I told YOU when Manafort was being tried that the claims against him were bogus. That FARA is unconstitutional, and that the money laundering argument was garbage.
But YOU insisted I was wrong.
If that is the case – if I was wrong regarding Manafort – than Hunter Biden is slam dunk guilty of all the same crimes – and then some.
But it gets worse. In Manaforts case – all the “money laundering” involved Paul Manafort.
In the Biden case it is nearly the entire Biden family. If Manafort was guilty of money lanudering than so is Joe and 9 other members of his family.
Bias is when you apply the law and the facts the same – regardless of your prefered outcome.
If Trump, Page, Papadoulis and a host of others were not defamed by actually false claims by the MSM, then DVS was not defamed by allegedly false claims by guests on Fox.
This was NEVER a difficult case. Frankly you can completely eliminate Fox and DVS and elections, and it should still be obvious the error.
Can the media report stories that at the time it reports them it can not prove they are true ?
Simple question.
The answer should be obvious – there is no free press if they can not.
It does not matter if the story is about Trump or DVS or Carter Page.
Is the judge biased ? OF COURSE – because this case should never have gotten in the front door of the court house.
And BTW all the argument above -= ignores completely the FACT that DVS is an agent of the government.
And as such can not be defamed.
Again something that should be OBVIOUS to everyone.
Why is DVS with absolute certainty unable to make defamation claims regarding their role in elections ?
Because, no government can insulate itself from claims of malfeasance and fraud – especially election fraud, by contracting out part of its mandatory legal duty to private contractors.
Oner of the huge problems with the entire left wing idiocy over the 2020 election is that you stooges are – as is common on the left, trying to make a claim that is OBVIOUSLY stupid.
WE do not want Government to be able to hide what it does in elections from scrutiny.
Right left, we should NEVER be required to Trust elections. All aspects of an election must be conducted lawfully, securely and transparently.
All aspects of an election must ALWAYS be subject to challenge, and the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the government.
You have argued before that election fraud is rare. to an extent it is – though it is far more common than you and your sources claim.
But that does not matter.
If the only election in all of history that had significant fraud was the election that put Hitler in power – your rare argument would be obvious garbage.
Consequential fraud may only need occur ONCE for a disastrous outcome for all.
Elections are NEVER entitled to our trust. And those particpating in them – including DVS are NEVER entitled to our trust or immune from accusations of Fraud.
The cost of false accusations of election fraud is minischule. The cost of silencing even rare true ones is enormous.
I would note – rarely in my Argument is either Fox or DVS mentioned. Rarely is Trump or Biden mentioned.
There is ZERO political bias in my argument – it applies to claims by Trump or Clinton, or Abhrams or Gore or Franken. or …
Your arguments – and the decisions of your judges and your juries vary based on WHO rather then the facts.
That is why they are CLEARLY biased.
“Dominion had plenty of evidence to prove Malice and willful lying.”
Absolutely false.
First you can not prove that the claims against DVS are a lie even today.
You CONSTANTLY conflate statements of opinion with statements of fact.
You can not lie about something that is not known.
“The majority of legal experts pointed out Dominion indeed had a strong case.”
False and irrelevant.
The majority of legal talking heads today are idiotic left wing nuts.
There opinions are not worth anything.
These are the same people who are claiming that Manafort is guilty but Hunter is innocent.
If you can not apply the law in the same way regardless of politics – your are biased and you are not an expert in anything.
Cettainly not the law.
The only thing more fallacious than appeals to authority are appeals to bad authority.
As to “legal experts” – Alan Derschowitz is probably the best or nearly the best first amendment lawyer in the past 50 years.
And he has said that the Fox DVS case was so much of a slam dunk for Fox that he would take it for the legal fees DVS would have to pay him when they lose.
And Dershowitz is correct.
I have made the arguments to you – above and elsewhere.
For your legal experts to be “correct” for Dershowitz to be wrong – the first amendment would no longer exist.
The press would no longer be able to function.
You have defined lie as anything you can not prove is the absolute truth and I have no idea where you think you get malice.
Fox does not Give a Schiff about DVS.
“You don’t show us how “weak” it was and why.”
I have repeatedly.
“Even Turley couldn’t analyze the case”
Again more of this mind reading.
You presume that you get to dictate the choices Turley makes and then that you know why he did not do as you demand.
Turley examine both the Rachel Maddow Case and the later Tucker Carlson case.
Bot the outcome of those cases and Turley’s commentary on those leads the same place – Dominion loses.
Do I know what Turley would have written had he written andything for certain ? No.
But I expect that he would be consistent with his past expositions and with the law.
Again – Dominion loses.
And AGAIN that reinforces why the “liar” arround hear is you.
You Say Bannon and Trump are criminals from refusing a subpeona in one case and for not complying to your satisfaction in another.
So Why isn;t FBI Director Wray in Jail right now ? He refused to comply with a house subpeona – exactly as Bannon did.
Should he be charged with obstruction right now ? Locked in Jail ? Why aren’t YOU arguing for that ?
You repeatedly told us all that Manafort was guilty – Then they entire Biden Clan is guilty for exactly the same reason.
Laundering money that was proceded of influence peddling by someone who failed to register for FARA.
Time and time again – You are unwilling to follow the law as it is. And then the law you create in your head to frame those you hate, is discarded by you when those you support do the same things.
You are both Biased, corrupt, and unable to see the same in others. While accusing those who are clearly not biased.
Who apply the facts and the law consistently – left or right, of your own failures.
Alas, alas, for you
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrites that you are
Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you
You will not venture half so far
Other men that might enter the gates you
Keep from passing through!
Drag them down with you!
You snakes, you viper’s brood
You cannot escape being Devil’s food!
Blind guides, blind fools
The blood you’ve spilt
On you will fall!
This nation, this generation
Shall bear the guilt of it all!
Alas, alas alas for you!
“We don’t know what additional evidence Dominion had against Fox News”
Very Bizzarre claim –
Not only is the claim that DVS rigged the election an opinion not a statement of fact, but even today it is an improbable opinion NOT a known false one.
To be Defamation Fox had to KNOW it was False in 2020 – not beleive it to be false, but actually know.
DVS can not have evidence against Fox that does not exist.
Next this – like all claims against those on the right – leaks like a seive.
You really beleive there is evidence we do not know ?
Did the evidence Schiff claims to have seen ever materialize ?
You haven’t been paying attention. The reality is that Over time evidence BUILDS against democrats.
There are few leaks and over time what we beleive slowly turns into what we can prove.
When the press is dealing with the right the REVERSE has always been true. The leaks all over time die, turn out to be false.
Is that guaranteed ? No. But if you beleive their is evidence you have not seen – you are a sucker.
“that doesn’t account for any damaging revelations gleaned from dominion’s questioning of Fox News pundits on the stand.”
All stuff that is neither relevant nor should have been admissible.
Defamation requires a false statement of FACT, There do not exist FACTS in this case, it is end to end a collection of opinions.
You can grill fox executives all you want it does not change the FACT, that an opinion is not a fact, And a claim that to this date can not be proven false can not have been a false statement int he past.
Defamation is NOT expressing hurtful opinions. It is not saying things that MIGHT not be true. It is not saying things that you do not beleive to be true.
It is saying things that you actually KNOW to be false at the time you say them.
“We have not seen this already.”
You have repeatedly argued the case is already proven. Now you are arguing that the case is not as weak as it appears – because of secret evidence no one knows about.
Which is it Svelaz Schiff ?
“This was entirely a new issue for Fox News because dominion had a LOT of damaging evidence, including evidence proving malice. Rupert Murdock admitted in depositions even he knew Trump’s lies were indeed lies.”
So we are back to “I know the case I have said was a slam dunk, looks weak, but things we do not know, would make it stronger”
There is absolutely nothing that anyone at Fox can say that changes the FACT that the claims regarding DVS and 2020 REMAIN unfalsified allegations,
and therefore OPPINIONS, not statements of Fact.
I have no idea what Murdock may have said in a depostion, But I know that Murdock could not have TRUTHFULLY said what you claim he said – how ?
Because again it is a statement of fact about something that remains to this day an unfalsified allegation.
You do not understand how damaging to YOUR position your failure to conduct real inquiry into the election is.
You constantly claim as proven false things that have not been proven one way or the other. That in most instances have not even been allowed to be investigated.
I will further note this is part of why the polls showing that people beleive that 2020 was Stolen have actually increased over time.
Your relentless atacks, your impeachments, your J6 committee – all have been for naught.
Why – because you were not transparent with people. Because given the choice between hiding the ball and investigating – you chose to hide the ball.
Because over time more and more election malfeasance has surfaced. Some of it merely more evidence, Some of it proof of election malfeasance.
The lies over Hunter Biden’s laptop and the attempts to censor the truth have been doubly damning.
First you have been caught beyond any doubt lying and censoring the Truth.
But also because
Falsus in unum, Falsus in omnibus.
Many Many claims have been made of 2020 election fraud. I highly doubt that most of them are true. I also highly doubt that all of them are false.
A real investigation could have allowed us to dispose of beyond any doubt many of the false claims. But at the risk of uncovering some actual fraud.
The hope of those like you was that sling enough mud and no one will beleive anything.
The problem is that as OTHER malfeasance comes to light it is EASIER to beleive the allegations that we can no longer prove or disprove.
I think the odds that DVS rigged the election are unbeleivably small. 3 actual Audits found lots of problems with DVS systems – more than enough to justify Fox guests making Claims, but ultimately proved real problems but no actual malfeasance by DVS in those 3 counties. That – particularly the Maricopa County audit reduces the odds of DVS election rigging in other places. But only an actual audit – a random audit is probably sufficient, of all other challenged places would be sufficient to change an opinion into an established fact.
But you did not do that. You fouhgt it tooth and nail.
And now as you get caught in other malfeasance – you are the little boy who cried wolf.
Almost 60% of the country beleives 2020 was rigged. They do not agree on how, and what rigged means.
But they do agree on one thing – Biden gained his victory CORRUPTLY.
And again
Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus.
“Dershowitz is an idiot.”
High praise coming from you.
Alan Derschowitz is probably the greatest lawyer currently living.
He has an incredible track record as a legal scholar over more than 50 years, and as a trial lawyer.
We has been involved in an won some of the most important cases in the past 50 years.
I am hard pressed to think of a lawyer who has his credentials as a Trial Lawyer, a Civil liberties lawyer, a constitutional scholar, a first amendment scholar and lawyer.
“LOL! Nope. Because it was only Fox News who continued to push known false claims that EVERYONE else was saying were false.”
You do not seem to grasp that truth is not determined by what everyone else is saying. BTW it was NOT only Fox news, it was NOT even primarily fox news.
Regardless, Defamation is a proveably false statement of fact, it is NOT a statement that lots of people do not beleive.
“Nobody has tried to sue CNN or MSNBC”
They have been sued – and the suits have been dismissed.
“because they don’t have any evidence to prove malice and intentional lying like Fox News had against it.”
You STILL can not prove that DVS did not rig the election – without that you are DOA – you do not have a false fact.
As to Malice – apparently you do not watch CNN or MSNBC, regardless the standard is NOT mailice. Malice is ONE of several Required Elements.
As to your claim that malice existed – your leaks and texts prove the opposite. They prove that Fox did not beleive DVS rigged the election.
They prove that atleast some at Fox did not beleive Trump. Which is close to the opposite of what you want.
You want to prove malice – what you would need was Fox shorting DVS stock prior to broadcasts.
By claiming Fox had Malice – you are actually undermining DVS’s case. The allegation of malice requires that DVS was acting in league with Biden and democrats.
The Malice in 2020 was not targeting DVS it was targeting the efforts of Democrats to rig the election.
Regardless, you – like so many left wing nut judges – do not understand the law.
“The “left wing nuts” saw the obvious”
Again doubly wrong – what would the “obvious” be ? And further the standard is NOT obvious, it is a KNOWINGLY FALSE FACTUAL asserttion
You still today can NOT get to FACT, much les FACT AT THE TIME.
“whereas “right wing nuts” kept avoiding it and feigned ignorance as an excuse.”
What is it that anyone is “feigning ignorance” of ? You contineu to feign that something has been objectively falsified which remains unclear even today.
“Which is what you are doing.” No I am sticking to the FACTs.,
Further I am judging the DVS case in the same way as other similar cases – the much earlier Maddow OAN case, the Case against Carlson several years ago.
The Trump, Page, Papadoulis cases.
Most of which were discussed here, and most of which were stronger than the DVS case.
“If DVS’s case was so weak why was Fox News so desperate for a settlement?”
I told you long ago this case would likely settle. I am suprised that Fox settled so high – if the reporting is correct, which I have NOT so far verified.
But I am not at all surprised the case settled.
“If that case was as weak as you are alluding Fox News would have been happy to go to trial, right?”
Why ? I told you that long ago I settled a case that was a dead bang winner, that the ALJ told me that the case was over an that he would inevitably find for me.
But that it would take 3 more days and require me and my lawyer to apear for 3 more full days.
I agreed to pay an employee 2500 which was HALF of what it would have cost me for 3 more days, to make the case go away.
Separately my father refused to settle two cases late in his life. He WON both of them. But he also lost.
The one case pissed off lots of important people and significantly harmed his ability to get work int he future.
The other wasted the last 10 productive years of his life to acheive a moral victory that cost him far more than he won.
People settle all the time.
Only idiots beleive it is because they are wrong or think they would lose.
” They were the ones who were constantly trying to have the trial dismissed.”
Correct, that is what you do. And the reasont hat the Judge was obviously biased is because the case should have been dismissed.
“Dominion continued to show to the judge why it was not dismissible every time.”
No the Judge refused to follow the law – that is called BIAS.
Whether you like it or not the law is actually very clear – which is Why derschowitz made the offer he did.
There is a long long list of recent similar cases – all of which were DISMISSED before Trial. For exactly the reasons that Fox argued.
And those cases had better Fact patterns. Rachel Maddow’s statement was inarguably false and she knew it at the time.
But the court decided – that she did not intend the statement as a statement of fact, and that even if she did, that shows like hers were Opinion shows.
One additional argument bears repeating.
Sometimes the gods punish us by giving us what we ask for.
Expect that the left will soon enough be targeted in exactly the same way as Fox – but with Juries and Judges in TX or AL intent on demonstrating to those of you on the left that “turn about is fair play”.
On issue after issue where you have pushed political advantage over norms or the law,
it has come back to bight you in the ass.
The rule of law requires that we follow the law – not the politics.
The claims you make regarding the law are not ultimately favorable to YOU.
Fox’s brand has been damaged 10 times as much by firing Carlson than by DVS.
That argument is nonsense.
There is no one who watches Fox that would chose to go elsewhere because DVS won their lawsuit.
The most damaging revalations of the lawsuit were that Fox was NOT 4 square behind claims of election fraud.
THAT is what might cost them their brand.
Firing Carlson has damaged them far more than DVS.
Further it is self evident at this point that Carlson is returning – and soon. THAT will directly harm Fox – far more than DVS.
You are again so fixated on the siny object – “Get Trump”, “Get Fox” that you do not seem to understand – that even succeeding is Failure.
If Trump is not the GOP nominee in 2024 – DeSantis will be. If you actually succeeded in “Getting Trump” – you will have to Deal with President DeSantis. And if you “Get DeSantis” then President Cruz, or Haley, or any number of others.
There is this leftist nonsense that Trump owns the republican party.
That is False. It is not Trump who controlls his supporters. It is his supporters who control Trump.
Trump’s support is based on delivering to his voters the promises he made. He remains popular because Trump voters know exactly what they will be getting.
And Biden’s and Democrats problem in 2024 is that we ALL know what we will be getting With Trump, and we know what we will be getting Wtih Biden.
One of the other Big deals about the Trump TownHall is that he was quick witted, and very effectively handled a hostile CNN moderator.
He owned the Town Hall. He proved that he was not merely cognizant, but incredibly sharp.
Contrast that to Biden who often can not finish his own sentances and does badly in interviews with Freindly reporters.
We KNOW Trump is Competent. WE KNOW what we are getting.
We KNOW Biden is incompetent, and we KNOW what we will be getting.
We listened to idiots like you rant about Trump’s negative favorability throughout his presidency.
That with the most hostile press of all time.
Biden has a fawning favorable press – despite his claims – which just sound stupid.
And still have unfavorablity below Trump’s through much of this part of his presidency.
Regardless, Trump is not my point. If you managed to “get Trump” – he will be replaced with someone much like him.
It appears that Fox has damaged itself – more from Firing Carlson than the DVS lawsuit.
Regardless, While Fox will not die,it also probably will not recover.
But Other media sources hostile to the left will continue to thrive.
We are well past the heyday of NYT or WaPo. They may not die but they are certainly fading.
We are past the heyday of the Cable News. Fox is weakened – but that did not strengthen CNN or MSNBC or …
But it did strengthen Fox’s direct competitors.
While the coming return of Carlson to Twitter could prove to be a huge deal. And a paradigm shift.
The real future is more with places like Substack – independent media. Which is doing incredibly well.
I follow Bell and Enjeti on Yoputube – formerly from “The Rising” and now on Breaking points. Bother are left of center.
But Both are real journalists and realize they MUST appeal to a broader audience.
The Rising itself has replaced them and still remains a useful source.
I have a long and growing list of journalists I follow on Substack.
Most are liberals diseffected with the modern Left.
This is where the future of media is. Not Fox, not MSNBC, not Wapo, not CNN not NYT.
The legacy media is dying.
Those of you on the left seem to think that if you can silence Fox – you can change the political landscape.
Trump exists because he reflects PEOPLE. Fox exists because they reflect PEOPLE.
Kill them and something will replace them.
While the Left media is dying because it does NOT reflect people.
Was Tucker Carlson fired or was his show cancelled?
At this time the only thing that is known as a fact is that Tuckers Show is not on the air.
Technically Tucker was not fired. I do not beleive his staff was either.
The show was not cancelled either. It is just not being aired.
By contract I suspect Fox can do that. But it also appears they have leaked information disparaging Tucker – that is a breach of contract.
And Tucker is now asserting that.
If Fox has breached – they could owe him the rest of his fee to the end of his contract in 2025, and lose their non-compete clause.
Likely something less than that will occur.
It appears near certain that Tucker will be producing his show in some form on twitter very shortly.
It is likely that Fox will have to pay out some of Tuckers remaining contract, but they will not be able to silence him.
“Technically Tucker was not fired. I do not beleive his staff was either.”
He and his executive producer were indeed fired.
“By contract I suspect Fox can do that. But it also appears they have leaked information disparaging Tucker – that is a breach of contract.
And Tucker is now asserting that”
We don’t know what’s in his contract. Tucker Carlson may assert whatever he wants, but until we know exactly what is in his contract we cannot assume there was a breach of contract.
Fox News may not have completely released Tucker from his contract. He may still be limited in what he can do in regards to his new twitter show.
Svelaz, Tucker is still being paid by Fox, as are most of his staff. That is not “fired”.
Fox could call up Tucker tomorow and say – you MUST return to work tomorow – and he would have to do that or be in breach of his contract.
While we are debating a detail – it is increasingly unlikely Fox is bringing Carlson back.
It is still contractually possible.
If in Svelaz worked being paid for not working is being fired – then we have nothing to debate.
But in most of the world, when you are fired – you do not continue to get paid. And you can not be called back into work the next day.
“Svelaz, Tucker is still being paid by Fox, as are most of his staff. That is not “fired”.”
John, the problem with Svelaz and extended arguments is he never responds to the facts presented. Whether that is because these things fly over his head or because he is a liar is impossible to figure out because both are true.
I want Svelaz’s answer to each question, starting with this one.
Svelaz, was Tucker fired? If you continue to believe that, why is Tucker still being paid?
Svelaz – like all left wing nuts engages in dishonest word play – not honest debate.
He almost never directly addresses arguments, when he does, he does not do so anywhere close to honestly.
He has no interest in truth. He uses unique ambiguious and situationally variable definitions of words.
Very basic things like being unable or more accurately unwilling to distinguish between true, and probable of false and improbable,
Between opinion and fact, between what is known and what is not known, He deliberately mangles timelines all over the place.
Most 4yr olds have better logic skills.
The relevant aspect of the Tucker discussion is that someone else asked what I beleive was a sincere question and deserved an honest and correct answer.
I do not care if Svelaz wants to claim Tucker was fired – presuming that Svelaz understand the actual facts and is just calling that “Fired”.
But calling what occured a firing to someone who is not aware of the facts, is lying.
I do not expect Tucker back at Fox, but that possibility does exist, and stranger things have happened.
The primary reason I do not expect Tucker back at Fox is because I do not think at this time Tucker will want to return.
I strongly suspect he is seeing the oportunity to have total control of his own voice.
I also suspect that he sees the oportunity to take a prominent role in the lead of the next big thing in real journalism.
Fox is likely STILL the last of the Cable news giants to fail or fade. But it ought to be clear to all that the megoliths of the media are fading.
Most will not likely fail, but they are past the apex of their influence.
I have used the free market breakfast cereal grocery aisle analogy repeatedly – I think we are entering that with the media.
I laugh when Svelaz accuses me of being a Fox Drone. I watch some Gutfeld on occasion – because his show is FUNNY, just as I watched the Daily show or colbert in the past. Stewart is mostly gone, and Colbert is no longer funny. I did not care that either leaned left – so long as they were funny.
I do nto watch Gutfeld to be informed. i recently Watched the Alex Boronstein special – it was very very funny. But parts of it where stupidly hyper left political.
So what – she was still Funny for most of the special.
Regardless, that is not news.
I do not watch Gutfeld to be informed. I do not watch other comedians to be informed – though they frequently make jokes about the news.
I read Taibbi, or Greenwald, or listen to Barri Weis, or watch Derschowitz, or Turley, or John Campbell, or any number of others.
I have been following both “The Rising” and “Breaking points” more recently – these are much younger political journalist – both are structured in a firing line model – left vs right, except that neither has any conservative or republican. But Both are trying to apeal to an audience more diverse than that of MSNBC – as CNN is trying to do, but I doubt they can succeed.
That is a really big deal. Both “the rising” and “breaking points” will not shy away from attacking Democrats for their failures – even if their politics lean left.
My eyes glaze over everytime Crystal tries to talk economics – I can not grasp how someone so obviously intelligent can buy such complete economic garbage.
Both shows are hostile to Trump. But Both are capable of objectively grasping that Trump is a force to be reckoned with and do not parrot the Svelaz Nonsense the Trump is stupid and his followers are zombie morons.
Most everyone that I follow does NOT share my politics. What they do share is HONESTY, and a willingness to deal honstly with issues that those on the left deal with as carcitures – if they deal with them at all.
Barri Weis has had Bill Barr on several times – and I find him fascinating. He is FAR to the right of me on criminal justice issues. Frankly he is far tot he right of Trump on those. Oddly he is extremely cognizant of the malfeasance that went on within the FBI/DOJ regarding Trump and tried to clean that up.
While at the same time completely blind to the fact that you can not trust people who are willing to engage in that kind of conduct over ANYTHING.
Barr completely buys the left election narative. unwilling to contemplate that the people who would push the collusion delusion nonsense would also cheat in elections. Basically he has too much trust in institutions that even he recognizes have been corrupted.
Regardless, I do not have to agree with someone on everything to learn from them.
I am very happy to have dozens of voices – none of which I fully agree with – so long as those voices are honest, and not boxed into an ideological narrative.
Even Chenk Urgur of the young turks has said some incredibly perceptive things lately. And TYT is the Alex Jones of the left.
I think Tucker is wrong about many things. But he is a different voice – and he is an honest voice and I think Tucker unchained could be amazing.
I do not think there is a Fox host that has been more hostile to Trump, while at the same time, there is probably not a fox host that Trump is more willing to trust.
That speaks well of BOTH Trump and Carlson.
There is not a chance in h311 that Biden would sit down for a hard hitting interview with someone like Carlson.
Trump’s CNN townhall performance was incredible. It does not matter whether you agreed with Trump or not.
Trump was mentally significantly sharper than a rising 40 something journalist.
It was obvious to everyone that Trump and Biden are not within 10,000 miles of each other cognatively.
The big takeaway from the Trump town hall is that Biden is too cognatively impaired to be president.
Biden was the obvious third person on stage. Every exchange that occured you could not help but think
Biden would be completely lost.
“Most 4yr olds have better logic skills.”
Svelaz is a conflicted mess.
“We don’t know what’s in his contract.”
Yes we do, Tuckers lawyers have made public statements regarding these terms.
They have also sent public letters citing terms.
“Tucker Carlson may assert whatever he wants”
Lawyers publicly quoting contract language is a bit more than a mere assertion.
“but until we know exactly what is in his contract we cannot assume there was a breach of contract.”
Even absent terms in the contract publicly disparaging someone is generally breach of contract.
“Fox News may not have completely released Tucker from his contract.”
There is no MAY. They have not. That is why Tucker is claiming Fox breached.
“He may still be limited in what he can do in regards to his new twitter show.”
He almost certainly is limited in what he can do – hence the claim that Fox has breached.
But this is ALSO why he is not “fired”. Fox continues to pay him. I beleive approx 2.6M/month.
So long as they do that and do not otherwise breach they can demand that he return to work tomorow.
i.e. he is not fired. He is not even laid off. He has just been told not to come to work.
It is BTW almost certain that Tucker can chose to QUIT. If he does he forgoes the 2.6M/month that Fox owes him.
There MIGHT be a court fight over noncompete terms in Tuckers contract.
But as a rule non-competes are not enforceable. Though they are breeches that would allow Fox to quit paying him.
I would further note that it is highly likely we will see Tucker very soon.
If you have paid the slightest attention – Tucker is far more than capable of making 2.6M/month on his own.
The Daily Wire which is TINY compared to the Tucker Carlson show has revenues of 200M/year.
Ben Shapiro probably makes more than Tucker Carlson. I beleive Megan Kelly says she is making more on her own than Tucker Carlson was at Fox.
Joe Rogan is making more than Tucker Carlson.
The legal fight with Fox could well be protracted. But Carlson will appear somewhere soon.
There is no compelling reason for him not to.
He can lose the fight with Fox and still make more than he did.
He was fired. He clearly had no idea he was not coming back Monday when he told his viewers “see you back on Monday”.
The man was abruptly fired.
John B. Say,
“Fox’s brand has been damaged 10 times as much by firing Carlson than by DVS.
That argument is nonsense.
There is no one who watches Fox that would chose to go elsewhere because DVS won their lawsuit.”
No, their brand was being damaged because they started to tell the truth after DVS sued and were unsuccessful trying to dismiss the case. DVS and Tucker Carlson’s private conversations pointed this out as clear a day. Tucker was panicking and whining to executives that they were losing viewers because they were fact checking Trump and his lawyers BS. Tucker was doing the opposite to “continue the brand” of peddling Trump’s BS claims they knew were not true to their gullible and stupid viewers.
“Further it is self evident at this point that Carlson is returning – and soon. THAT will directly harm Fox – far more than DVS.”
LOL!!! You sure have an active imagination. Tucker may provide some competition, but it’s yet to be seen if he will actually be successful enough to cause harm. He may succeed in peeling off the most extremist fans. That doesn’t mean Fox News won’t find new viewers.
“You are again so fixated on the siny object – “Get Trump”, “Get Fox” that you do not seem to understand – that even succeeding is Failure.”
It’s not a “fixation”. It’s simple the obvious flaw that Trump is and the gullible bunch of idiots who think he’s all that and a bag of chips. He’s just THAT bad. The majority of Americans don’t approve of him and that was clearly evident when he lost the popular vote by millions.
“Contrast that to Biden who often can not finish his own sentances and does badly in interviews with Freindly reporters.
We KNOW Trump is Competent. WE KNOW what we are getting.”
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!
He’s competent? Wow. You’re really off the reservation.
Trump rarely makes coherent arguments. He constantly rants into multiple topics trying to avoid looking stupid because you can tell he’s clueless about the subjects he’s often questioned on. The CNN townhall was a disaster. Trumps was playing the crowd with the usual BS he lays out at his rallies. He called the CNN interviewer “nasty” because she kept fact checking his BS. Trump doesn’t like pointed questions because it forces him to be specific. Narcissist BS’rs like trump hate that, because it exposes their BS.
Sunstack is a great platform, too bad Elon must censors links to it in twitter. Matt Taibbi’s sunstack link on twitter was censored because Elon didn’t like it. The “free speech absolutist” didn’t want twitter users to be able to use hyperlinks to substack.
“Trump exists because he reflects PEOPLE. Fox exists because they reflect PEOPLE.”
LOL!!!!
Trump exists because he’s good at scamming people. He’s good at making people believe his BS.
Fox News exists because they are good at finding and keeping gullible people with their network in the same way Trump does. They exploit stupid gullible people and lead them to believe they are being told the “truth”. Obviously that’s proven to be false by the revelations from the DVS case. They purposefully lie to their viewers because it’s profitable and easy.
Remember there’s still the Smartmatic lawsuit. They have more problems coming.
You do not live in the real world.
Clearly shareholders are more upset over Carlson.
Clearly viewers are more upset over Carlson.
Clearly viewers are NOT going to CNN or MSNBC.
None of this happened after the DVS settlement.
All of it happened after Carlson’s departure.
You say Fox is “telling the Truth about DVS” now, and that is why viewer are leaving them.
First that claim contradicts your claim that Fox is programming right wing Zombies.
The so called Zombies have freely made their own choice – they have left Fox. And not for MSNBC or CNN.
They are not changing who they are voting for. Only who they are watching.
Next – the election rigging by Voting machine claim has gained little or no airtime since Nov 2020.
Other claims of Fraud proved stronger.
You claim Fox is not telling the truth – first that would be impossible – there is no established truth.
But 2nd I have not heard anything from Fox regarding election fraud probably since J6.
Certainly not anything in the last month.
Whether you like it or not the country has moved on.
It is pretty set in stone now that a supermajority of the country beleives the 2020 election was rigged.
While there is no consensus on exactly how – I am sure many still beleive DVS rigged the voting machines.
Actual statements by DVS execs before the election do not help.
I would note BTW That democrats made a similar Voting machines tole the election claim in 2004.
Where are the defamation lawsuits ?
Regardless – as usual – you are unfamiliar with the real world.
Before you tell us all again what Fox is saying – actually spend some time on Fox so that you know what you are talking about.
You need not agree with Fox.
But if you do not want to make a fool and a liar of yourself – don’t just make things up.
If government contracts out Tax collecting – is public comment about potential fraud in tax collecting defamation ?
The FACT is that DVS is an integral part of elections.
And Government can not take a crucial part of the election and protect it from criticism – even false criticism by contracting it out.
TODAY – it appears that DVS did NOT inaccurately count ballots. In Nov. 2020 that was not clear.
Further the issues raised regarding DVS are legitimate. DVS equipment has the ability to do everything it was accused of,
and whether you like it or not, there was no way of knowing short of audits that outside of 3 counties did not occur to know that they did not.
While I have always been suspicious of the claims that DVS – rather than election officials or NGO’s or political campaigns rigged the election.
Even today we have NOT proven DVS did not. Only that While DVS had and has lots of problems. Deliberately trying to throw US elections is not among those.
I would note that Trump’s attack on DVS is not unprecidented.
Democrats have attacked DVS voting systems in the past – claiming they were Rigging elections for Bush.
There is no way that we should allow voting terminals that do anything aside from print a ballot to later be counted.
I have no problem with scanners being used to count ballots – but these MUST be randomly audited after the election – ALWAYS.
At the same time, there really is no need at all for computers in the election process.
All vote handling should be done by humans, with public oversite, in individual precincts no larger than 15,000 voters.
Small scale bottom up systems are slightly less efficient, but far more trustworthy.
“If government contracts out Tax collecting – is public comment about potential fraud in tax collecting defamation ?”
Government does not contract out tax collecting. Who does the government contract to collect taxes?
“The FACT is that DVS is an integral part of elections.
And Government can not take a crucial part of the election and protect it from criticism – even false criticism by contracting it out.”
No, it’s not. DVS is just a vendor, one of many available vendors providing voting machines. All they do is make the machines according to government specifications. They don’t run the machines and they certainly don’t engage in the tabulation of votes. Election workers do that. State and county election offices do that. Not DVS or Smartmatic or any other company that provides voting equipment.
DVS was being defamed by Fox News and Trump’s lawyers. Making claims that the company was changing votes and manipulating software to change results. Their products are verified and tested by the state before and election. The companies have no involvement in that process. Before they are purchased state election officials determine whether they comply with state election machine requirements or not. That’s it.
“TODAY – it appears that DVS did NOT inaccurately count ballots.”
False. Couching that statement with “appears” shows your assertions are not certain. Your paranoia is not satisfied and will never be.
“DVS equipment has the ability to do everything it was accused of,
and whether you like it or not, there was no way of knowing short of audits that outside of 3 counties did not occur to know that they did not.
Having the ability and proving that it occurred are two different things. They have been tested, audited, manual recounts showing they were indeed accurate, etc.
The accusations have turned out to be without evidence and proof they have occurred. Continued insinuations of malfeasance without proof are maliciously peddled to continue to sow doubt for the purpose of overturning an otherwise fair and accurate election. Republicans have always been sore losers and when they indeed lose after deluding themselves into the idea that they were SUPPOSED to win they fire off accusations of fraud or cheating.
“While I have always been suspicious of the claims that DVS – rather than election officials or NGO’s or political campaigns rigged the election.
Even today we have NOT proven DVS did not.”
You use lack of proof as proof of wrongdoing. You are of the idea that lack of evidence IS evidence.
“Democrats have attacked DVS voting systems in the past – claiming they were Rigging elections for Bush.”
Yes they did, with an important distinction. They attacked DVS machines that did NOT provide printed records of votes. Many Republican states argued at the time printed records were not necessary. Democrats did not agree because it made it difficult to verify electronic records. Now all voting machines produce printed records that can be used to verify accuracy.
“At the same time, there really is no need at all for computers in the election process.
All vote handling should be done by humans, with public oversite, in individual precincts no larger than 15,000 voters.”
Computers are necessary. Voters AND politicians expect and demand quick results. If you want all vote handling done by humans you will require spending MORE money and time and training far more people where human error would be greatly increased AND the chances of fraud increase as well.
A computer and a scanner do not have bias and do not second guess a ballot. Voting districts vary in size from a few thousand to millions. Your old fashioned approach is not feasible or efficient.
““If government contracts out Tax collecting – is public comment about potential fraud in tax collecting defamation ?”
Government does not contract out tax collecting. Who does the government contract to collect taxes?”
First that was a hypothetical – atleast in the case of the federal government.
Many local government do actually contract out tax collections.
Regardless you ducked the point.
““The FACT is that DVS is an integral part of elections.
And Government can not take a crucial part of the election and protect it from criticism – even false criticism by contracting it out.”
No, it’s not. DVS is just a vendor, one of many available vendors providing voting machines. All they do is make the machines according to government specifications. They don’t run the machines and they certainly don’t engage in the tabulation of votes. Election workers do that. State and county election offices do that. Not DVS or Smartmatic or any other company that provides voting equipment.”
No DVS is not just a vendor. And of course they engage in the tabiulation of the votes. Election officials do NOT count the votes. The tabulators do.
Using software that DVS wrote. As even dedicated left wing nuts involved in election integrity have been noting for over a decade, we do not KNOW that DVS equipment conforms to specs – Specs which they helped right. One of the issues in the AZ audit was that Cyber Ninja’s was not certified – Certified by who ?
The industry group formed by the manufacturers of voting machines. The specs and standards and testing are very heavily influenced by the industry.
I have no problem with that. But it is make beleive to claim their are just vendors.
Regardless, the software doing the counting is proprietary. Further while the claims that Powel made regarding weighted counting by DVS tabulators do not appear to be true in the US. They are actually true. The software CAN skew the vote.
YOU seem to fail to grasp I write software for a living. I can make a tabulator do whatever I want. I can make it successfully past testing before the election, and either subtly or significantly skew the election on election day. And the only way you will ever catch that is with an audit.
Regardless, Election equipment makers do not provide their software for review. You have no idea what it does.
While most voter integrity groups are trying to force election equipment makers to open up their software – I actually disagree.
That is not the way to catch or prevent fraud. ONE of several necescary measures is random audits. That of course requires accurate chain of custody.
You can not select 6% of the machines in a state to randomly audit it you can not know exactly which ballots went through that machine.
“DVS was being defamed by Fox News and Trump’s lawyers. Making claims that the company was changing votes and manipulating software to change results. ”
“Their products are verified and tested by the state before and election.”
Correct, and as we are now learning in AZ those test suck, often reveal problems that go un reported and uncorrected, and certification occurs before the tests.
Oops.
“The companies have no involvement in that process.”
Of course they do. That is very well documented – please read the evidence from the Windham NH audit.
They found correspondance and meeting notes between DVS and election officials documenting that DVS KNEW that folds in ballots would cause overvotes
This both proved prior (ofver a decade) knowledge of the problem, AND participation in the election preparation.
Further the standards for the testing are written by govenrment and industry groups sublect to extensive vendor lobbying.
“Before they are purchased state election officials determine whether they comply with state election machine requirements or not. That’s it.”
And the vendors participate,. and the tests are not that thorough, and as I noted it is not hard to write software that will pass the tests and still skew the election.
You really are clueless about the capabilities of software.
Try this “Alexa, Turn on all lights on November 7th at 7am”
Presuming you have alexa – what do you think is going to happen on Nov 7. at 7am ?
I do not beleive it is likely that election equipment manufactures would risk the consequences of getting caught engaging in Fraud.
But if the issue is whether it is possible – it is not only possible, it is easy. Worse still, the big problem with rigged computerized election equipment is that only a very small number of people would have to be in on it.
I can not personally conceive of a means to rig election equipment that would not likely be caught by random post election audits – though these MUST be had counts of the actual ballots that randomly selected machines counted on election day. No other type of audit is guaranteed to catch as much error and malfeasance. But any testing less than that can be defeated by clever software.
This also begs the question of the large collection of other errors and negligence and recklessness by election officials
As I noted before the AZ 2022 election dispute is ongoing. FOIA requests have revealed that AZ ballot printers were certified without testing, and then tested secretly says after they were certified and that testing found just under 50% of them FAILED – they were not able to accurately process 10 of 10 test ballots.
Worse Maricopa county election officials lied about this in the original lake trial.
This does not surprise me at all. Government routinely F#$Ks things up – even without political bias and malice.
Why would you presume they are able to properly test election equipment.
I noted before that nearly all mechanical voting machines retired in 2001 as a result of the HAV act were found to have teeth filed off.
These machines had been in use for decades. The first time I voted was on one, and it was decades old at the time. I probably voted on those mechanical machines for 3 decades.
Yet every single machine that was found with rigged gearing had been tested atleast every 2 years for decades.
Even ruling out malice and bias – incompetence alone is more than sufficient that your claims regarding state testing are NONSENSE.
You are clueless about the real world.
“”TODAY – it appears that DVS did NOT inaccurately count ballots.”
False. Couching that statement with “appears” shows your assertions are not certain. ”
Correct. Defamation requires certainty. You do not have it.
“Your paranoia is not satisfied and will never be.”
“The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.”
“Having the ability and proving that it occurred are two different things. They have been tested, audited, manual recounts showing they were indeed accurate, etc.”
False. There were very few manual recounts outside of the three counties I cited – and the Windham and antrim recountes were limited to a precinct not county wide.
Mostly occured was re-canvasses, not recounts, they are not the same and do not involve counting actual ballots at all -= though these did found errors, those are NOT machine errors they are human errors. There were very few recounts – these would conducted by MACHINE not by hand.
“The accusations have turned out to be without evidence and proof they have occurred.”
Both false and Not the standard. A defamation claim requires proving that something was a statement of fact, not opinion, that it was known to be false at the time.
The AZ audit was not completed until almost a year later, Most of what you claim occured DID NOT.
Often what you claimed was PROMISED, but it did not occur. Raffensberger as an example promissed a hand recount in GA – that never took place.
He promissed a signature audit in Fulton county – that never took place.
You as always are unaware of the actual facts.
There was very little investigation of any kind into any of the claims of election malfeasance.
“Continued insinuations of malfeasance without proof are maliciously peddled to continue to sow doubt for the purpose of overturning an otherwise fair and accurate election.”
Ignoring the dark adjectives – the FACT is that the standard of proof regarding an election rests with the STATE.
This is not a criminal trial. The standard is not Elections are fraud free until proven fraudulent beyond a reasonable doubt.
IT is not a civil trial – the standard is not election are fraud free until it is proven more likely than not that there was fraud.
And election is not legitimate unless government has proven to the overwhelming majority of people that there was not sufficient fraud or error to alter the outcome.
ANYONE is ENTITLED to “sow doubt” about al election – the burden is on the state to prove that doubt is not justified.
You claim my paranoia can not be satisifed.
That is false. While it is WORK to conduct an election that can be trusted. It is not that difficult to come up with a process that can be trusted.
The complexity increases exponentially – as we saw in AZ in 2022 with the number of options.
You can not conduct an election by mail that can be trusted. While that is obvious – it is also the concludion of just about every election commission that ever was.
But if you want a SIMPLE means to conduct elections that can be trusted – vote in person – with photo ID at the precinct you live in, with precincts no larger than 15,000 voters, count ballots by hand in public as soon as the polls close. Publicly report tallies of ballots in batches of about 500 ballots.
This is approximately what France does with results in about 5 hours and 80M voters.
“Republicans have always been sore losers and when they indeed lose after deluding themselves into the idea that they were SUPPOSED to win they fire off accusations of fraud or cheating.”
They have ? Isn;t it Gore that went to court in 2000 ? It is Franken who went to court – and he even won, swinging the election 5000 votes in court.
Isn’t it Abrhams who is still claiming to have won against Kemp ? Isn’t is Hillary that tried to get electors to flip their voters and subjected the entire country to years of hell based on a HOAX of her own making ?
““While I have always been suspicious of the claims that DVS – rather than election officials or NGO’s or political campaigns rigged the election.
Even today we have NOT proven DVS did not.”
You use lack of proof as proof of wrongdoing. You are of the idea that lack of evidence IS evidence.”
No, lack of evidence does not constitute the proof that a claim is false.
This is just a huge logic error on your part.
It took CERN many thousands of attempts to detect the Higgs Bosun. Did thousands of faliures – lack of evidence mean it did not exist.
You have inverted the burden of prof. An opinion is not a lie until it is proven to be true. It is a lie when it was proven to be FALSE prior to being stated.
When we do not know – as with DVS election fraud – what we have is probability. Something that is probably false – is not false. It is just probably false.
Those at CERN beleived the Higgs bosun was real DESPITE complete lack of evidence. Until they were eventually after many attempts able to prove it.
“Yes they did, with an important distinction.”
Nope. First while Democrats did attack machines that did not produce a paper record – so did republicans.
Ultimately those machines were removed FIRST from republican states and precints, and I beleive some still exist in democratic precincts.
Democrats claims of voter Fraud are oportunistic – not principled as you are claiming.
Separately there are plenty of democrats who have challenged electronic tabulators in the past.
I personally do not beleive Tabulators are a problem – So long as there are random post election Hand recounts of some machines.
But the best solution to the problem is just to get rid of them and count ballots by hand.
Humans have done that accross the planet for centuries.
While this does not completely eliminate the possibility of fraud, it makes large scale systemic fraud in vote counting much harder.
I would further note it makes several other forms of fraud much harder – or impossible.
Someone has been convicted of sitting in front of a scanner in Philadelphia and scanning the same ballot over hundreds of times for as long as I can remember.
This is not possible without scanners.
Do everything by hand in public bottom up at small scale with public reporting of small batches and most means of election fraud are gone.
“They attacked DVS machines that did NOT provide printed records of votes. Many Republican states argued at the time printed records were not necessary. Democrats did not agree because it made it difficult to verify electronic records. Now all voting machines produce printed records that can be used to verify accuracy.”
This is a completely inaccurate. Democrats challenged a specific election. The fight over voting terminals started shortly after HAV passed – a Bipartisan bill.
The Challenge to the voting terminals as a whole – as opposed to a specific electionj was lead PRIMARILY by republicans not democrats
And I was an active part of it.
“Computers are necessary.”
Nope.
“Voters AND politicians expect and demand quick results.”
Yup, and that is doable by hand. Vote Tabulators are NEW. For most of my life voting in MOST of the country was counted by hand.
And results were typically known by morning in close elections and usually midnight or earlier in other election.
GHWB won PA in the wee hours of the night in PA with nearly all votes counted by hand.
France still counts votes by hand – and has results from 80M ballots counted by hand in about 5hrs.
This is not a hard task.
One of the big problems with Computers is that they ALLOW essentially top down ballot counting.
They allow centralized counting which is an abysmally BAD idea.
You do not want ballots MOVED on election day. You do not want Ballots to leave the precinct where the vote was cast.
Every single time you move a ballot – you introduce a new means for fraud.
We still have three truckloads of ballots that arrived at the Detroit counting center in 2020 after 3am that there is absolutely no record of – except that there is security video of them arriving and being unloaded. But there is no chain of custody for ballots received at that time.
Is that fraud or error or incompetent record keeping – I do not know. But it is a reason to not trust the results.
As I said getting trustworthy results is alot of work. But it is NOT rocket science. The KISS principle applies.
As does absolute transparency.
“If you want all vote handling done by humans you will require spending MORE money”
Yes – though not alot – voting machines are quite expensive.
“and time”
Not really.
“and training far more people”
Training to hand count ballots is trivial – as is the skill level needed. This is a task simplere than flipping burgers at mcdonalds.
It is a MW job. It requires little training. While the electronic voting machine systems require less people most of these need to be highly trained and well paid and the reality is they are neither.
“where human error would be greatly increased ”
Probably. But error is far less important than you seem to think. Actual errors nearly always cancel out.
Turley stressed this when he was recomending that Biden get behind a deep audit of the 2020 election.
If there was no fraud there was no risk – as I said errors cancel. When errors do not cancle that is nearly always an indication of fraud.
“AND the chances of fraud increase as well.”
False. Ballots are counted in batches by people. Each batch is counted by three different people. That means you have to get three people to agree to committ fraud. Further you randomly assign batches so that no one knows who previously counted the batch they are counting.
“A computer and a scanner do not have bias and do not second guess a ballot.”
You know absolutely nothing about computers.
Computers are driving by software, software is written by humans, humans have biases.
Not only can I write tabulator software that will skew and election – but I can do so such that short of random audits you will never be able to detect it.
One of the big problems with ALL “black boxes” is that the number of people necescary to commit large scale fraud is tiny.
“Voting districts vary in size from a few thousand to millions.”
False, there is not a congressional distrinct in the country with more than 750,000 people.
Further in ever state they have state house and senate districts that are much smaller than congressional districts.
And then each election has local offices. The largest possible “voting district” – is the smallest local elected office.
In my state precincts have about 15,000 potential voters and usually see about half of those for each election.
That BTW si true through most of the country.
The recent development of massive counting centers is only possible because of tabulators. Otherwise ballots MUST be counted locally – because there are generally only about 15,000 identical ballots.
This was a part of the mess that occured in AZ in 2022. Maricope County decided to impliment an anyone can vote anywhere on election day policy.
This mean that ballots could not be preprinted. – opening up a huge oportunity for fraud. The moment a ballot is printed on a laser printer that make many many anticounterfieting measures possible. It also means you can no longer detect counterfeit mail in ballots.
But this only got worse – because the ballot printed failed in Maricopa countin in abotu 50% of all voting places.
The next problem with your claim is that millions of people do not vote at the same place on election day. That is stupid nonsense.
Do you think everyone in detroit or philadelhia, or milwaukee or pheonix or atlanta voted in one place ?
Counting ballots by the millions in a single location is a massive opportunity for fraud.
First ballots must be transported – which introduces exponentially larger oportunities for fraud.
Then you have all the assorted 2020 problems – locking out lawfully required observers,.
counting the same ballots over and over,
sneaking in suitcases of ballots.
In a precinct of 15,000 voters with normally only 7-9000 voting – how many ballots do you think you can sneak in undetected ?
Keep in mind that you must also alter the records of the number of people who voted.
MAYBE you could inject a couple of hundred ballots without getting caught – small discrepancies in counts can be tolerated.
But if you have 2000 more ballots than voters in a precinct – you KNOW there is fraud.
If you are counting 2 million ballots with crappy chain of custody you can inject 200,000 ballots and not get detected.
If you try to inject 200,000 by injecting 200 at each of 1000 precints – and there would be less than 200 actual precincts fo 2M voters.
you would need 1000 people to assist you with that fraud. Just not happening.
You MIGHT be correct that you will get more small scale fraud. But like error, that will cancel out.
“Your old fashioned approach is not feasible or efficient.”
Of course it is – most of the world is doing exactly this. As I noted France does this.
Do you think that India or Turkey or much of the rest of the world has DVS scanning millions of ballots ?
Is this efficient – no. Though I suspect that you will find that it costs little or nothing more than all the electornics.
Regardless, we do not want efficiency in govenrment – the example of efficient government is the NAZI’s
Our entire system of government is deliberately highly inefficient.
Just as elections should be.
The REQUIRED inefficiency in government is part of the reason we do not have government do what does not require government.
So you think about what you post before posting it.
In 1932 the US presidential election had just under 50M voters.
There were no computers, no voting machines of any kind. Everything was counted by hand.
We have about 3 times as many voters today – not an order of magnitude.
Not something unmanageable or unaffordable with a population 3 times as large.
One of the most important elements I have proposed – something that MOSTLY still exists,
Which is precincts where voting and counting take place limited to approximately 15,000 people, scaled infinitely.
And requires the lest anti fraud measures. Because ballots are not moved from the precint, because counting is done small scale and in public and publicly reported in small batchs from the precinct.
As I said before this is what happens in MOST of the US today. It si what happens in MOST red areas of the country today.
It is what happens in MOST blue states today.
It is not what happens in large cities. And that is where the greatest danger of fraud has ALWAYS been. Whether in 2020 or 1876.
The more ballots you put into the same room, the more you move ballots the greater the oportunity for fraud, the fewer people need to know about it.
A super majority of americans now beleive the 2020 election was in some way rigged.
That fact along OBLITERATES all your claims regarding election fraud.
If an election is not trusted – it is not legitimate – no matter how well you think it was done.
As to the FACTS, you are incorrect. There is almost no consequential investigation of Election fraud in the US.
Everywhere there is scritiny fraud is found. Everywhere there is scrutiny – errors and other problems are found.
Kari Lake is still on court in AZ – she should have won the first time – the Standard – Contra the court is NOT Prove malfeasance.
It is prove the election results can not be trusted. Lake succeeded.
She is now back in court over signature verification – with an incredibly strong case.
I suspect she will again lose – because the court has already bent over backwards to protect Maricopa county.
Worse still she is now refiling her original challenges – Why ? Because she had to make her orriginal case in a very short period of time without discovery.
Since FOIA requests have exposed the FACT that Election officials LIED in the original Trial.
As an example, Hobbs certified the election machines BEFORE testing – which is illegal. Then they secretly rested them and found that almost half the machines failed. There is a clintonian debate over whether the official that claimed that 19″ ballots were not being printed on 20″ paper causing the problems in AZ lied under oath. It is now an established FACT that the wrong ballot images were being printed – and the Judge Relied on the FALSE claim that was not true in his decision.
It is probable that the official will not be charged with perjury – because while it is absolutely True that the WRONG ballot immages were being printed in more than 50% of systems. What the official specifically said did not occur is ambiguous enough that he can claim he was NOT denying what we now know DID occur.
Ignoring the Perjury claim – the FACT is that Ballot images that Could not possibly be successfully scanned were being printed by approx 260 Ballot printers.
AND election officials KNEW this from secret illegal testing prior to election day. Further this problem could not occur without a HUMAN engaged in either error or malfeasance. Which was the standard that the Judge claimed was not met. It is now KNOWN that the ballot printers themselves DID NOT malfunction.
That the problem on election day was human caused, Likely deliberate, and with near certainty known by election officials PRIOR to the election.
All this is the result of FOIA requests in the past 6 months. Lake is now demanding that several previously dismissed claims be revived, and that her team is granted discovery – which they did not have before. And this is in addition to the signature verification claim which is going well – but she will likely lose – because we have already established the Judge is biased.
Again I want to re-itterate – the Standard here should have nothing to do with republicans and democrats.
It should not even have to do with the difference netween error and fraud.
The standard for an election is Can voters Trust the results.
And the answer – not just in AZ but accross the country is NO.
And whether you like it or not – that is the view of the Electorate. And that is what counts – not your Faux inquiries that did not actually inquire into anything.
“A super majority of americans now beleive the 2020 election was in some way rigged.
That fact along OBLITERATES all your claims regarding election fraud.”
LOL!!! It’s telling that is a lie. You didn’t provide any evidence of your claim.
The Republican Party is not a “supermajority of Americans”.
Less than half of all Americans believe the election was rigged or stolen.
“The share of Republicans who believe President Joe Biden didn’t legitimately win the 2020 election and there’s “solid evidence” to prove it has plunged over the past two years, a new CNN/SSRS poll finds, suggesting Republicans are increasingly realizing there’s no solid proof of the election fraud claims pushed by the far right—but still aren’t changing their minds about the election being “stolen.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/03/14/republicans-increasingly-realize-theres-no-evidence-of-election-fraud-but-most-still-think-2020-election-was-stolen-anyway-poll-finds/amp/
“She is now back in court over signature verification – with an incredibly strong case.
I suspect she will again lose – because the court has already bent over backwards to protect Maricopa county.”
If the case is “incredibly strong”, how?, you think it will still lose because, again, biased courts. BS. She has lost all of her cases because she lacks the one thing she needs. Evidence. She has none. The previous Republican Secretary of State sat on a report showing Arizona elections were indeed fair accurate. It was a report commissioned by the republican legislature.
She lost fair and square. She’s trying to use Trump’s strategy of BS claims and filing lawsuits without being able to provide any evidence of her claims.
“As an example, Hobbs certified the election machines BEFORE testing – which is illegal. Then they secretly rested them and found that almost half the machines failed.”
That was shown to be a false claim in court. Kari lake has been peddling BS she can’t back up. Over and over her cases were dismissed because she had no evidence to back up her claims. Like you, she claims lack of evidence IS evidence.
You blame the judge being biased without any proof. You only claim that because you can’t show that the court is wrong. When real credible evidence is presented by Kari lake on her claims THEN she would have a strong case.
“LOL!!! It’s telling that is a lie. You didn’t provide any evidence of your claim.”
Google is your friend.
“The Republican Party is not a “supermajority of Americans”.”
I did not say they were.
Rassmussen has been polling this since the election.
The LOWEST result was 51% of those polled.
More recently the number has been 56%.
This is not just republicans.
“Less than half of all Americans believe the election was rigged or stolen.”
I am sure you can find a poll that says that. And I can find one that says different.
But it does nto matter.
If 10% think the election was stolen – you have an election trust problems.
“If the case is “incredibly strong”, how?”
Google is your friend – regardless I told you how – actually read the post.
“you think it will still lose because, again, biased courts.”
Yes, I watched the entire original hearing.
Lakes team made their case.
“She has lost all of her cases because she lacks the one thing she needs.”
She lost the origianl case NARROWLY – whether you like it or not the court did NOT decide she was wrong.
They did not decide her claims lacked merit. They did decide that she did not meet an artificially high standard of proof.
That was in a lawsuit filed immediately after the election where LAke eschewed discovery to get into court imediately on the hope of preventing Hobb’s inauguration. While Through to the AZ Supreme court the court have upheld the lower court EXCEPT reinstating the signature verification lawsuit.
All of the above was done WITHOUT discovery.
You are correct that Lake had the same probelm that Trump had. But you are incorrect in your characterization of that problem.
The standard of proof for election challenges is incorrect. And election challenge must be brought in a very short period of time without any real oportunity to gether evidence. The best you can have is affidavits and expert opinions. And because of the incorrectly high standard of proof – those can NEVER meet that standard.
We did not have evidence of all the problems in AZ until late 2021. We did not have evidence of the mass ballot harvesting until mid 2022.
We did not have evidence of the involvement of govenrment in political censorship until after the 2022 mid term.
All that is necessary to get away with election fraud is to delay the uncovering of evidence long enough.
As to what is going on with Lake now – everything is moving SLOWER. FOIA requests have brought in lots of actual evidence.
The signature verification claim is back in court as the AZ Supreme court rejected the lower courts claim it was untimely.
Lake has refiled several of her other claims – based on new evidence that demonstreates that Maricopa Election officials LIED about several key matters in the original hearing. As an example we now know that the ballot printers were certified BEFORE they were tested, and that when they were actually tested several days later a bit under 50% FAILED – not the 3-4 that Maricopa officials testified to in court. There was also a court contest over the cause of the failures. The Judge beleived the Maricopa official that testified this was a printer malfucntion – toner problems and of limited scope. This was a lucicrous claim given that it took WEEKS for AZ to hand count the ballots that were screwed up by the printers. Regardless the BIASED judge BOUGHT a stupid claim.
It has now been established that the Ballot images stored in many of the printers were incorrect and could not be printed so that they could be scanned.
The differences is important because the improper standard of proof that the courts are using is that proving error – even error that could have flipped the election is NOT enough. Lake must prove that an action taken by a human altered the outcome of the election.
Toner problems are near impossible to prove as a human act. Essentially the Judge bought the claim that lots of printers had bad toner and that really was not anyones fauilt and it does not matter if that MIGHT have altered the outcome.
One of the ways you can tell bias is when you have a long string of decision points that ALL have to go one way to get the desired outcome.
And not one of those decision points is with regard to a FACT that can be astablished beyond a reasonable doubt. that a judges decision that accpet EVERY required decision point from one party – is self evidently biased.
This is the difference between serial and parallel circumstantial evidence. If you have a chain 6 elements long each of which has a 50:50 probability of being true.
Each of which is dependent on the last. There is a 3% probability of reaching a true outcome. Conversely if you have the same situation except each element is independent even if the probability of each element is only 50:50 then you still have near certainty.
Using a real worldish example. If you have DNA and fingerprints at the scene of a crime – but of poor quality and the DNA is only a 50:50 likely match, and the finger print is only a 50:50 likely match – because they are independant – the likelyhood is about 75:25 you have the right person.
Conversely if you have a gun that is only a 50:50 match to the one that killed someone, and finger prints on the gun that are only 50:50 match to the defendant,
Because these are serial – dependant on each other. you only have about a 25% probability the defendant is the killer.
The Judge in the original lake case failed to understand the difference between serial and paralel probabilities.
But I doubt you do either.
But we expoect judges to actually understand fundimetnal logic.
Regardless, it is now both proven that the ballot immages were incorrect, and it is proven that Maricopa election officials KNEW that before the election.
And that they KNEW that about 50% of the ballot printers were going to F#$K up. And they went forward anyway.
This is NOT the limits of what has been uncovered. The Judge Chose to disregard exit polling that demonstrated that possibly as many as 200,000 voters were essentially turned away on election day as a result of the problems. Lakes team has Shored that claim up using much stronger evidence.
As I said before I doubt Lake will win. Not because she does not have a winning case, but because of judicial bias, and the wrong standard of proof.
Understanding this is SIMPLE – While LAKE may be looking to get declared the winner – and that REQUIRES the standard of proof the court is requiring.
The standard to invalidate the election is NOT proof that lake won. It is proof that the election is not trustworthy.
If Lake wants declared governor – she must prove she won. But if Hobbs wishes to remain governor she must prove that the electin was trustworthy.
Those are different standards.
And that is why the courts were required to intervene EARLY – both in 2022 and 2020.
To stop this nonense before the election. to invalidate the election if necessary afterwords.
Oh, and I forgot there is now lots of evidence that Hobbs was illegally pressuring counties to certify – more than the few we discussed before.
” Evidence. She has none.”
False.
“The previous Republican Secretary of State sat on a report showing Arizona elections were indeed fair accurate. It was a report commissioned by the republican legislature.”
The previous SoS was Hobbs – a democrat. Atleast get your facts straight.
“She lost fair and square.”
Really, you actually want to use the AZ 2022 election as your old standard for elections ?
““As an example, Hobbs certified the election machines BEFORE testing – which is illegal. Then they secretly rested them and found that almost half the machines failed.”
That was shown to be a false claim in court.”
Nope it has only recently been uncovered through FOIA requestes that were dilligently opposed.
“Kari lake has been peddling BS she can’t back up. Over and over her cases were dismissed because she had no evidence to back up her claims. Like you, she claims lack of evidence IS evidence.”
She has provided lots of evidence as have I. The BS is when you repeat claims that there is none. You can not make facts go away with rhetoric.
“You blame the judge being biased without any proof.”
Of course I have proof. I watched the hearings. Lake actually won primarily on Cross with Maricopa counties witnesses. Their defense was that the mess all of us saw on the news did not actually happen. That something like 80,000 ballots did not have to be hand counted because of ballot printer errors, because it really was only 2 or three ballot printers and because it really was just a toner problem.
Unlike you and the judge I am not so stupid as to buy that what EVERYONE saw on the news did not actually happen.
“You only claim that because you can’t show that the court is wrong.
I have shown the court is wrong.
” When real credible evidence is presented by Kari lake on her claims THEN she would have a strong case.”
Then is now,. Then was 6 months ago.
Again are you actually so stupid you are going to argue that AZ 2022 is the way elections ought to be conducted ?
There was no question the day of the election – that AZ had screwed the pooch and that the results would not be trustworthy.
“There are already measures to prevent fraud and they have been shown to work just fine.”
Magical thinking.
“What seems to be the real problem is you can’t satisfy paranoia regarding voter fraud.”
Not mine, just under 60% of the country.
“It’s been statistically shown over and over again that the real incidence of voter fraud is rare.”
Pretty much the opposite is true. The statistics on the 2020 election indicate an enormously low probability that the result was not do to fraud.
You have never shown any ability to grasp mathematics.
And you are constantly making claims up out of thin air.
As I noted before When the mechanical voting machines were retired as a result of the HAV Act – nearly all were found to have had teeth filed off their gears.
The story about Johnson stuffing the ballot box to win his first senate seat – was confirmed by one of his co-conspirators on their deathbed.
In the 19th century when we last ignored the requirements of Secret Balloting – until 2020 Fraud was Rampant.
Pretty much every single election cycle someone gets arressted in Philadelphia for scanning the same ballots over and over.
Fraud is indeed uncommon – in elections that are not close, which is most elections. No one is going to risk getting caught in an election where the fraud required is large, and therefore the odds of getting caught are high. Regardless, there were numerous proven cases of Fraud in 2020, and several plea deals where people – mostly democrats plead to small scale fraud to avoid trials for large scale fraud.
I can go on and on – the US has a long tradition of election fraud. You seem to think that magically we have grown out of that ?
How so ? Election fraud is quite simple – the easier it is, the less likely people are to get caught – the more common it will be.
I would note most of the studies on election fraud are sourced to Brennan center, which did not actually do research and mostly dealt with statistics on convictions, Voter Fraud is often very nearly impossible to prosecute, regardless, they were also specific to in person voter fraud – which though far more common than Brennan Center admits, is the hardest to commit and least likely form of Election fraud.
“Trump’s lying about voter fraud and Fox News willful enabling of the lying contributes to that paranoia you seem to adhere to.”
And you have actual evidence of that ?
You can not prove that a single precinct in the US was free from election fraud – in any election. Why ? Because you know nothing about elections and fraud.
You are as always just making things up. And none of us no anything for certain in places that were not audited and did not keep good records,
“The Dominion defamation case showed exactly why the voter fraud claims are mostly BS.”
It did ? How ?
To this date there are only 3 places in the US that we actually know did not have Dominion related voter Fraud, And the Maricopa county Audit shows evidence fo large scale fraud.
Honestly, the SMALLEST finding in Maricopa County was almost 50,000 duplicate ballots – I would love to hear how that is Not Fraud ?
“Fox News paid $787 million to barely admit they were indeed lying to you.”
No, they paid some amount of money to avoid a long protracted court battle.
The case was SETTLED, not decided.
“Fox News pundits knew they were lying to to you.”
You keep repeating this incredibly stupid claim. It is impossible to KNOW something in Nov 2020 that is still not KNOWN today.
It is impossible to Lie about something that is not known or knowable for certain even today.
“The only reason why you believe the claims is precisely because you were taken for a ride by them and nobody likes to admit they’ve been had.”
I do not beleive ALL of the claims – despite the fact that I enjoy rubbing your nose in the fact that even today you can not prove that DVS did not rig the 2020 election, I do not believe they did. I did not beleive that at the time – though I fully supported then, now, and in the future random audits to make that and several other forms of fraud less likely. I also rejected the Bentham numbers claim of statistical proof of fraud almost immediately.
Conversely I have no doubt – and there is plenty of evidence that ballots were scanned multiple times in Fulton County GA. Enough to tip the election – probably not, but it with near certainty occured.
I also KNOW that when people work incredibly hard to avoid public scrutiny, that is likely because they have something to hide.
Often the evidence YOU think proves there was no Fraud, is the evidence I think makes fraud likely.
You cite scores of court cases that Trump lost. I note scores of court cases where there was no discovery, no cross examination, no presentation of evidence.
That the left VIGOROUSLY sought to avoid scrutiny. I note the massive Zuckerberg funded counting centers, that universally lied about closing on election night, sent observers home and continued counting ballots with NO ONE to oversee them throughout the night and often for days after.
You rant about recanvasses – which is not an actual recount, I note that the GA random signature audit of cobb county found 6% of ballots should have been rejected, and 0.6% – more than enough to tip the election were likely fraud.
“There are already measures to prevent fraud and they have been shown to work just fine.”
Magical thinking.”
Nope. The majority of credible voter fraud cases have been the result of basic safeguards that have always been in place. You don’t show evidence that they have not?
“The Dominion defamation case showed exactly why the voter fraud claims are mostly BS.”
It did ? How ?
To this date there are only 3 places in the US that we actually know did not have Dominion related voter Fraud, And the Maricopa county Audit shows evidence fo large scale fraud.”
Fox News pundits literally complained that Trump lawyers were not providing evidence of their claims. They didn’t buy into Trumps BS either. That was from private txts, emails, and one deposition from Rupert Murdock.
What Maricopa county audit are you referring to? None have stated that there was evidence of large scale fraud. The previous Secretary of State deliberately hid a report commissioned by the state legislature showing there was no large scale voter fraud. That claim you keep making without evidence is simply BS.
“Fox News pundits knew they were lying to to you.”
You keep repeating this incredibly stupid claim. It is impossible to KNOW something in Nov 2020 that is still not KNOWN today.
It is impossible to Lie about something that is not known or knowable for certain even today.”
The majority of political analysts and media knew Trump was lying. Fox News was known to be enabling it. The dominion case proved those assertions correct. Interestingly you always claim you KNOW there was fraud without any evidence yet here you state making such a claim is stupid.
“The only reason why you believe the claims is precisely because you were taken for a ride by them and nobody likes to admit they’ve been had.”
I do not beleive ALL of the claims – despite the fact that I enjoy rubbing your nose in the fact that even today you can not prove that DVS did not rig the 2020 election, I do not believe they did.”
But you admit you believed most of it and that is enough to include you in the fact that you were indeed taken for a ride. You’re trying to rub my nose into the fact that you can’t prove a negative. Nobody can prove a negative. It’s pretty convenient, like your no evidence is evidence philosophy.
“You cite scores of court cases that Trump lost. I note scores of court cases where there was no discovery, no cross examination, no presentation of evidence.
That the left VIGOROUSLY sought to avoid scrutiny.”
LOL!! Trump lost scores of cases because he couldn’t produce evidence of his claims. In court you first have to show evidence of your claim to proceed with discovery which Trump did not have, just like Trump’s lawyers did not have to show Fox News hosts despite claiming they had evidence.
The left wasn’t avoiding scrutiny. The problem was Trump couldn’t produce evidence of his claims. Some cases were dismissed for lack of standing and that was because the evidence they presented was pure hearsay. All that we learned about those cases was that Trump’s lawyers were incompetent idiots who had no idea what they were doing half the time.
“You rant about recanvasses – which is not an actual recount,..”
They are legal requirements and there have been multiple hand counts, re-counts, audits, reports, etc. none showed large scale fraud or the vote being stolen.
You’re just a victim of being lied to by many including trump. Even buying into a few is enough to stoke your paranoia and it shows. Lack of evidence is evidence in your delusional world.
“The majority of credible voter fraud cases have been the result of basic safeguards that have always been in place.”
Is english your native language ? Or is this jut a massive logic failure on your part.
No one is denying that SOME safeguards exist and that these SOMETIMES catch Fraud.
“You don’t show evidence that they have not?”
Why would I try ? Your argument is correct but tangential.
Turning off the pumps on a pool preven children from being sucked into the drains and drowning
That is a basic saferguard that works.
But only a few percent of children drowning in pools are the result of getting sucked into drains.
“Fox News pundits literally complained that Trump lawyers were not providing evidence of their claims. They didn’t buy into Trumps BS either. That was from private txts, emails, and one deposition from Rupert Murdock.”
So – Tucker Carlson said exactly the same thing on air.
You still confuse unproven with false.
It is totally completely unproven to this day that DVS tabulators altered the outcome of the election.
It is improbable that they did.
But it is not proven false that they did not.
You are incredibly bad at basic logic.
“What Maricopa county audit are you referring to?”
There was only one.
“None have stated that there was evidence of large scale fraud.”
What is your defintion of evidence ? What is your defintion of large scale ?
There is ZERO doubt that there were just under 50K ballots counted for only 13K people.
The mailin ballot envelopes exist. That is inarguable fraud of some kind.
“The previous Secretary of State deliberately hid a report commissioned by the state legislature showing there was no large scale voter fraud. That claim you keep making without evidence is simply BS.”
You keep saying this over and over. The SOS was HOBBS,
She is a DEMOCRAT.
“The majority of political analysts and media knew Trump was lying.”
Again massive logic failure. You can not lie by stating a claim that has not been proven false.
You keep trying to make this stupid argument over and over.
10,000,000 pundits can claim that something is a lie. That does not make it a lie.
A lie has TW critical elements – the statement must be provably FALSE at the time it was made.
AND the person making the statement must KNOW that it is false.
YOU lie constantly. But to this day there is not a single statement that Trump has made about the election that meets either of those criteria.
When you accusf lying – and you are obviously wrong – the moral failure the LIE is yours.
SOME statements made by Trump and others SUBSEQUENTLY have proven to be wrong. NONE were known to be wrong at the time.
SOME of the statements made by Trump and others were improbable at the time. That still short of the defition of a lie.
MOST of the statements made by Trump and others remain unknown to this day.
Though there are many things we do know.
We know election laws were not followed.
We know the election was not conducted transparently.
We know that there was large scale illegal ballot harvesting.
We know trhere was censorship – of what has subesequently proven to be TRUTH by the US government.
All of these and many other things that indesputabley happened are Election fraud of one form or another.
“Interestingly you always claim you KNOW there was fraud without any evidence”
I have provided evidence many times.
“yet here you state making such a claim is stupid.”
Making what claim ?
This appears to be another of your 3 card monty stupid arguments.
The fact that I disbeleive the DVS claim and I think making it was stupid , does not mean that all claims were stupid.
And it does not mean that any claims were lies.
You contineu as leftists typoically do to mangle the meaning of words.
LIE has a meaning. It is not claims that you do not like.
It is not claims that have not been proven.
It is not even claims that were subsequently disproven.
A lie requires a claim that is proveably false at the time it was made, and that was made KNOWING i was false.
Disbeleif does not make something a lie.
YOUR error should be obvious from mkany other mistakes you have made.
You repeatedly claimed Trump lied about Russian collusion.
Yet, ultimately Trump proved correct about just about everything – including that he and others were spied on.
You have repeatedly claimed that allegations regarding the Biden’s malfeasance in Ukraine were debunked right wing conspriacy theories.
NOW you have backed down to – their are not proven corruption beyond any doubt. You have ceded there was influence peddling.
But now that it was not a crime.
You have REPEATEDLY as demonstrated above Claimed others were LYING,
And yet you have been proven WRONG.
It is obvious you do not know what a lie is.
I suggest reading your own posts, they are full of them.
“But you admit you believed most of it”
Still trying to pretend that all of this is Binary.
What I beleive and what I know are two different things.
Each of us is free to beleive whatever we want. But we would be wise not to beleive things that are demonstrably false.
I do not believe anything that is provably false. You do constantly.
But there are things that are more than beleifs. there are things tht are actually KNOWN.
Soem at the time, some subsequently.
I have addressed those above.
We all KNOW that the U govenrment participated in censoring true politically damaging stories about Biden.
That is not a beleif, that is something I know and something YOU should know.
I BELEIVE as to most people, that those who are false in one, are false in many things.
I do not KNOW that. But it is very rational and logical to beleive that.
“is enough to include you in the fact that you were indeed taken for a ride.”
You can come towhat ever stupid conclusions you wish.
But the evidence is that the only one who consistenatly gets caught beliving things that are false is you.
“You’re trying to rub my nose into the fact that you can’t prove a negative. Nobody can prove a negative.”
Ignoring the fact that “you can prove a negative” is a generalization, not a fact.
And that it is actually possible to prove that DVS did or did not rig the election.
Your statement exposes the entire error of your argument here.
If you can not prove THIS negative. Then you can not claim Trump or anyone else is LYING.
And you have lost the entire defamation case.
“It’s pretty convenient, like your no evidence is evidence philosophy.”
Please do not try to paraphrase me. You constantly get it wrong.
We are dealing with logic not philosophy.
And no evidence is no evidence.
Contra your claim – it is often possible to prove something did not happen.
The collusion delusion did not happen.
It was possible to prove that DVS did or did not rig the 2020 election.
The fact that was not done does not mean it could not have been done.
And again – even if it had been proven one way or another, future proof does not make past claims about something not know at the time into lies.
“LOL!! Trump lost scores of cases because he couldn’t produce evidence of his claims.”
Trump produced plenty of evidence. We have been through this before – thousands of affidavits. You choose not to believe those – but that does not change the fact that they are evidence. Nor was the evidence limtied to affadavits.
“In court you first have to show evidence of your claim to proceed with discovery”
Correct – but not very much. the standard is quite low and Trump easily met it.
Which is again EVIDENCE of Bias,
“Trump’s lawyers did not have to show Fox News hosts despite claiming they had evidence.”
Another misunderstanding of logical and language on your part.
I noted above that affadavits are evidence.
Sometimes evidence when subject to scrutiny – such as cross examination in a trial does not hold up.
Either becuase it was a lie, or because it was not as strong as it appeared.
That does not change the FACT that it was evidence.
Something that appears to mean one thing but later does not mean that is STILL evidence – or atleast it was.
There is LOTS ove evidence that DVS rigged the election.
There are statements by the DVS CEO that he would make sure Trump did not win the election.
That is EVIDENCE. It is not proof.
You are correct that no evidence regarding DVS has proven very strong.
But that is NOT the same as no evidence existed.
“The left wasn’t avoiding scrutiny.”
Of course they were. From driving observers out, to blocking windows so no one could see in to fighting all efforts to cast a light on the election – the left was actively and aggressively avoiding scrutiny.
“Some cases were dismissed for lack of standing”
Correct.
“and that was because the evidence they presented was pure hearsay. ”
That is NOT what standing means.
Regardless, you do not know what hearsay is, or what it means.
As a general rule hearsay is prohibited – but there are so many exceptions to that rule that most hearsay is admissible evidence.
Further the evidentiary standards are different in civil and criminal trials.
Regardless, are you saying that a witness – say Biden’s secretary coming forward and saying – I heard Joe Biden say he took a bribe from Putin,
is something we should completely ignore ? That likely would get admitted in a criminal trial. Buit even if it did not, it would be a legitimate basis to investigate, AND to indict and to start a Trial.
“All that we learned about those cases was that Trump’s lawyers were incompetent idiots who had no idea what they were doing half the time.”
Your judgement on law and lawyers has been universally crap.
““You rant about recanvasses – which is not an actual recount,..”
They are legal requirements and there have been multiple hand counts, re-counts, audits, reports, etc. none showed large scale fraud or the vote being stolen.”
Again FALSE. There was a small hand recount in Windham NH and I beleive in Antrim WI.,
There was a huge hand recount in Maricopa country. There have been very few if any others.
Technically a recount is a recanvass. It does NOT involve actually recounting the actual ballots.
I beleive in GA there was a limited MACHINE recount – actually runing ballots through the machines again.
The only audit was in MAricope county.
And AGAINJ that found Fraud. – almost 50K duplicate ballots. That fraud is indesputable.
It also found evidence of POSSIBLE larger fraud.
You continue to be unable to be honest.
Was I right about the collusion delusion – FROM THE BEGINING ?
Was I right that there was evidence of Biden familiy corruption in Ukraine that justified an investigation ?
Was I reight that the HB laptop was real – or are you still buying the Russian disinformation nonsense ?
Was I reight about nearly every claim I made regarding covid ?
Svelaz it is self evident that I am far better than you are at weighing evidence.
I wish that was proof of my great skills. But mostly it is proof of how POOR yours are.
I am not a victim of anything.
You are a victim of your own poor skills at logic and reason.
Svelaz I have been deeply studying and advocating for better election integrity since the 2000 Gore Bush election.
No one is deluding me. There is little doubt in my mind that there were thousands of fraudulent votes in FL in 2000 – for Bush and for Gore.
I was terrified that the contest would turn into competing claims of fraud – fraud that with certainty occured.
I have been around for the Democrats attacks on Dmonion systems – and claims of Fraud from the past.
Then the claim was that Domion was in the Bush’s pockets.
While I doubt that was true – Bush’s introduction of Voting Terminals was one of the worst decisions regarding election integrity up through to but not including large scale mail voting.
No one has hoodwinked me regarding Election Fraud. While my morals bar me from doing so, and tipping an election to libertarians is just too large a fraud to not get caught, I have no problem figuring out how to commit large scale election fraud in any state that has mailing ballots and ballot drop boxes.
Further unlike what happened in 2020, If I chose to do something – there would be no clues.
I would have absolutely no problem injecting as many as 100,000 ballots into any state that has mailin voting and ballot drop boxes.
And I could do that for relatively small amounts of money, and with no involvement of anyone else but myself.
In fact I could stll manage to get away with large scale Election fraud even if we actually had counterfeiting Ballots, and good signature verification.
And again I could do it alone.
If I can work that out others Will.
Just to be clear – I do not believe Republicans are much more moral that democrats. Only that many forms of election fraud are an order of magnitude easier in a big city.
“Svelaz I have been deeply studying and advocating for better election integrity since the 2000 Gore Bush election.”
It looks more like you’ve been deep into the conspiracy theory nut job world for a while. You are the target audience for the likes of trump and Fox News. You already admit you have been taken for a ride by then on “some” of their debunked BS claims. It’s not surprising.
“I have no problem figuring out how to commit large scale election fraud in any state that has mailing ballots and ballot drop boxes.
Further unlike what happened in 2020, If I chose to do something – there would be no clues.”
LOL!!! I doubt you could convince a large group of people to put 100,000 ballots without being noticed. Let alone do it yourself. There’s big reason why that never happens. It’s a lot harder than you think. A lot of idiots think they could do it. But realistically it’s not possible.
The only large scale fraud that can be successful is when those in power can seek to invalidate everyone else’s votes because they claim voter fraud without evidence. Republicans are already making laws that would make that easier.
“It looks more like you’ve been deep into the conspiracy theory nut job world for a while. ”
So you agree that the Voting terminals were a bad idea – this despite the fact that to this day there is no evidence of Fraud involving those terminals.
And then you decide that I am a conspiracy nut ?
Nearly every “Conspiracy theory” you have claimed I hold hjas proven true.
Every conspiracy theory you have bought into has proven false.
It is self evident you are the nut job that is constantly being taken for a ride.
“You are the target audience for the likes of trump and Fox News.”
And yet I do not watch Fox very much, and I have never voted for Trump.
“You already admit you have been taken for a ride by then on “some” of their debunked BS claims.”
NO did not.
Again go back and actually quote what I have said.
Misrepresenting my statements is called LYING.
You are completely unable to tell what is a lie and what is not.
“I doubt you could convince a large group of people to put 100,000 ballots without being noticed.”
Correct = but I do not need to.
“Let alone do it yourself.”
And why not ?
“There’s big reason why that never happens.”
And yet we have video of it happening over and over.
And myriads of ballot boxes with no video where we do not have any idea what happened.
BTW this is also possible without unattended Ballot boxes – it just requires more money
Ballot boxes save postage.
“It’s a lot harder than you think.”
Nope.
“A lot of idiots think they could do it.”
I am sure they do.
I am not an idiot. When I say I can do something – I can.
Again this is not all that hard.
“But realistically it’s not possible.”
Then you would be able to demonstrate exactly what safeguards would prevent it.
There is not a provision that is actually in place that would stop this.
“The only large scale fraud that can be successful is when those in power can seek to invalidate everyone else’s votes because they claim voter fraud without evidence.”
That would not be fraud, and it is not what happened.
” Republicans are already making laws that would make that easier.”
Good for them- but not half far enough.
This is pretty simple – whatever the standards that you THINK would stop fraud – if they are not enforced they are useless.
We know there are large scale chain of custody problems.
There is only one way to correct that. Toss all ballots without full end to end chain of custody.
You can not expect an antifraud measure to work if it is not followed, and it is obvious that without consequences it will not the followed.
As a practical matter – what I proposed – KISS voting, eliminates almost all chain of custody issues. If you do not transport ballots you do not have chain of custody issues and you eliminate many oportunities for fraud.
Regardless, most of those measures you claim prevent fraud – do not exist, and those that do – are not enforced.
Until the courts are prepared to invalidate ballots that are dubious. Your alleged antifraud measures are worthless.
Fraud is like the field of dreams “if you build it, they will come” – “if allow fraud you will get fraud”.
That has been true through human and american history.
The first and not alone sufficient step is to enforce the actual laws that YOU claim would prevent fraud.
Enforcing those law REQUIRES invalidating large numbers of ballots.
Finally, The left has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. There are numerous forms of election fraud in 2020 that we KNOW occured.
Once you KNOW that you have large numbers of people who will illegally conspire together to cheat in one way.
It is only reasonable to presume they did in others.
“Finally, The left has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. There are numerous forms of election fraud in 2020 that we KNOW occured.”
And yet you show zero examples. Most of the fraud is usually attributed to simple human error.
“Once you KNOW that you have large numbers of people who will illegally conspire together to cheat in one way.”
You don’t “know”. You assume to “know”. You theorize. You don’t know. That’s your biggest problem.
“And yet you show zero examples.”
I have provided numerous examples.
I have listed them over and over.
Stickin your head in the sand does not make the facts go away.
” Most of the fraud is usually attributed to simple human error.”
Actual error cancels.
Regardless, fraud is a form of human error.
Just as murder is a form of human error.
““Once you KNOW that you have large numbers of people who will illegally conspire together to cheat in one way.”
You don’t “know”. You assume to “know”. You theorize. You don’t know. That’s your biggest problem.”
Nope. they have been caught conspiring – GAME OVER.
Teh FBI censorship scheme is a conspiracy.
The Intell officials russian disinformation letter is a conspiracy.
Paying governemnt grants to private groups to engage in polical internet censorship is a conspiracy.
Even the Biden familiy Shell corp money laundering gig is a small conspiracy.
“DVS is a vendor. Not an agent of government.”
You can easily be both and they are.
” They did not participate in the process of running the election.”
Of course they did. They have a symbiotic relationship with election officials.
They build equipment for elections – they both attempt to meet and shape the specs for that equipment.
Further they train those who operate that equipment,
and they build the equipment and software to the requirements of those election officials.
Finally they publicly spoke out regarding the eletions.
“All they do is build voting machines.”
That is part of what they do.
“They don’t conduct tabulations or determine anything involving an election.”
They provide the tools that do all of that, and they do so to specs that they helped write, and they train those who do all of the above.
DVS is NOT providing fleets of cars to a government agency.
They are building a product whose only client is govenrment to specs that they and government jointly determined.
They are heavily involved in determining election policy.
I would note that we have lots of evidence to support that – they were active participants in the lawsuits defending the election,
We have lots of emails and meeting notes from DVS. We know all about the close relationship between them and government.
Or atleast those of us paying attention.
To be clear – I am not attacking DVS. They are not doing anything I would not expect of them.
But they are sufficiently entangled with govenrment that they do not and can not have protection from defamation without allowing government to use provate businesses to circumvent the constitution.
“All of that is done by the county where the purchased machines are operated.”
All with the explicit assistance of Voting machine companies.
The issue here is NOT is DVS evil – they are just a typical company.
It is are they entangled with government,
and the answer is absolutely yes.
This is no different from Private Prisons. or the defense industry.
Or other businesses that are symbiotically involved with government.
Generally I oppose that. But it will exist to some extent regardless.
“It’s like saying because I purchased a stove from GE and anything cooked on it makes GE party to my cooking.”
Voting machines are NOT a commodity product.
Stoves are. Does DVS have significant clients besides govenrment ?
“Government does NOT contract out any portions of the election. State and county workers do all of the work regarding elections.”
False. In Maricopa county a private firm LITTERALLY did much of the vote counting.
Please read the fawning Time article about how Biden prevailed in 2020 – the Article WRITTEN by those on the left describes exacly how Zuckerberg Funded NGO’s took over local election machinery in multiple democrat cities.
Aside from the fact that you are wrong – you also miss the point.
The employees of private prisons are not government employees – they are still government agents.
“There were random audits in affected states.”
False. The only random audit conducted was the Cobb county GA signature audit and that found 6% of mailin ballots should have been rejected and 0.6 were fraudulent.
There as a complete audit in Windham county, and in Antrim County . These found errors, but not fraud.
There was a massive complete audit of Maricopa county that found massive errors and actual fraud.
“Multiple audits were done.”
Only the ones I noted about. a Recanvass is not an audit, it is also not a recount. And a recount is not an audit.
“All showed no evidence of massive voter fraud.”
False the Maricopa county audit found alkmost 50,000 ABSOLUTELY fraudulent ballots – it is illegal to vote more than once. That is ALWAYS fraud.
Further Maricopa found indica of much larger fraud.
GA conducted a recanvass, a machine recount in SOME places. This was neither random, not an audit.
There were not looking for Fraud.
In point of fact almost no inquiry into fraud was done anywhere.
“Even audits sponsored by Republicans after the previous one was not convincing enough.”
YOu constanly make these sweeping statement without any evidence to support them.
What is an audit sponsored by Republicans ? The only Republican Audit was maricopa county – and that found almost indesputably 50,000 fraudulent votes in a state that Trump lost by 11,000 votes. The Maricopa county audit also found that Actual fraud was likely closer to 200,000 votes.
“None confirmed any fraud significant enough to affect the outcomes.”
Both false and misleading. Maricopa county found almost 50K indisputably fraudulent ballots.
Misleading – because the standard is NOT “prove fraud” – the standard for a trustworthy election is “Prove there was no consequential fraud”
That was not accomplished ANYWHERE. Very very few places made the slightest effort to look for Fraud.
“Again, BS. Arizona showed republicans could not bring themselves to acknowledge that their claims of voter fraud were not true. The previous Secretary of State sat on a report proving there was no voter fraud. The current SOS disclosed what the previous Republican SOS chose to hide.”
You can not keep your facts straight. Kate Hobbs was the previous SOS.
Your claim is regarding the prior AG, and your claim is FALSE.
“Cyber ninjas confirmed Biden won by a few more votes than originally stated.”
No Cyber Ninja’s confirmed that in Maricopa County DVS equipment counted the ballots correctly.
That is not the same thing.
They also confirmed 50,000 ballots were cast by 13,000 people – that is called large scale fraud.
And that is what is undeniably true. Cyber Ninja’s found errors with almost hald of all ballots – about 900K ballots that increased the possibility of Fraud, and almost 200K ballots that were likely fraudulent.
“There are already measures to prevent fraud”
Then you would be able to name them and identify how they accomplish that.
We have rules regarding the presence of observers in polling places and in counting fascilites – yet those were routinely violated in 2020.
We have rules regarding signature verification – those were violated in 2020 and 2022.
We have constitutional amendments requiring Secret Ballots those were and continue to be violated.
We have laws regarding voter ID those continue to be violated.
We have laws regarding chain of custody – those continue to be violated.
We have laws requiring ballots to be specially printed by the state with anti-conterfeiting measures – those continue to be violated.
WE have laws that require ballots to be delivered to the county election office – not unattended ballot boxes – those continue to be violated.
All these as well as many other laws, and rules are the “measures” we have to prevent Fraud.
So how is it that fraud was prevented when you ignored all the measures to prevent fraud ?
“they have been shown to work just fine.”
Nope, pretty much the oppositre.
“What seems to be the real problem is you can’t satisfy paranoia regarding voter fraud.”
Election integrity is something that you need to be paranoid about.
I beleive total election spending is now approaching 10B.
That is an enormous amount of money. Even ignoring the politics. Control of trillions of dollars of government spending is at stake.
The benefits of successful election fraud are enormous. They are far greater than anywhere else in the world and we see fraud with far less incentive elsewhere.
One of the massive problems with the HAV Bush voting terminals was because they left no verifiable paper trail, Even though it would have been incredibly difficult, it was possible to rig the black box machines, to alter the vote and never get caught. While doing so large scale without getting caught would be a huge amount of work, it was in theory possible with a very small number of people in the know.
That is the least likely form of Voter Fraud, but it is also the most dangerous – and to prevent it you have to be paranoid.
Mailin voting interdocuses dozens of ways to commit voter fraud at many difference scales with an incredibly low probability of getting caught,
There are ways we can do better with mailin voting that we currently do, but even those falll short of what is necescary.
Regardless, if you are NOT paranoid about voter integrity it is inevitable you WILL get fraud.
But you have not come close to the poor level of trust that elections prior to 2020 had.
While in person voter fraud is diffuclt – it still happens all the time.
Large scale inperson fraud is much harder. And even that happens.
NH in 2016 had 2600 ballots cast and counted by people who claimed to be NH residents but were not.
“It’s been statistically shown over and over again that the real incidence of voter fraud is rare.”
No it has not.
You are unfamiliar with reality.
“DVS is a vendor. Not an agent of government.”
You can easily be both and they are.”
No, they are not. They are not agents of government. You WANT them to be because it helps support your flawed narrative.
“They did not participate in the process of running the election.”
Of course they did. They have a symbiotic relationship with election officials.
They build equipment for elections – they both attempt to meet and shape the specs for that equipment.”
Nope. They don’t participate in running the election at all. They train election workers on how to run them, once. After that they only provide technical support if a machine has an issue after state techies can’t figure it out.
Building the equipment is not participating in an election. They manufacture a product to state specs. That’s it. The state uses the product. DVS involvement ends when the machines are sold and only provide tech support when they have an issue. That does not make them government agents. You’re trying too hard to make that into a fact that is not backed by evidence.
If a soda fountain machine company sells a mashing to military specs it doesn’t make them a government agent because they sold them a machine to military specs. It doesn’t work that way.
“Cyber ninjas confirmed Biden won by a few more votes than originally stated.”
No Cyber Ninja’s confirmed that in Maricopa County DVS equipment counted the ballots correctly.
That is not the same thing.
They also confirmed 50,000 ballots were cast by 13,000 people – that is called large scale fraud.”
LOL!! You’re hilarious when you climb to debunked fraud claims.
Cyber ninjas did find more votes for Biden then originally counted a few hundred more. That is true.
Cyber ninjas which was an inexperienced auditing firm when it comes to elections falsely made the claims you cite.
“CLAIM: Arizona’s largest county in the 2020 election received and counted 74,000 mail-in ballots that had no record of ever being sent out to voters.
THE FACTS: False. The claim mischaracterizes reports that are intended to help political parties track early voters for their get-out-the-vote efforts, not tally mail-in ballots through Election Day. The reports don’t represent all mail-in ballots sent out and received, so the numbers aren’t expected to match up, according to Maricopa County officials and outside experts.
“We have 74,243 mail-in ballots where there is no clear record of them being sent,” Logan said at a meeting livestreamed at Arizona’s Capitol on Thursday. “That could be something where documentation wasn’t done right. There’s a clerical issue. There’s not proper things there, but I think when we’ve got 74,000, it merits knocking on a door and validating some of this information.”
Logan based his false claim on two types of early voting reports issued by Maricopa County: EV32 files and EV33 files. He claimed that EV32 files are “supposed to give a record of when a mail-in ballot is sent” and EV33 files are “supposed to give a record of when the mail-in ballot is received.”
That’s not accurate, according to Maricopa County officials, who tweeted on Friday that “the EV32 Returns & EV33 files are not the proper files to refer to for a complete accumulating of all early ballots sent and received.”
https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-arizona-ap-fact-check-election-2020-campaign-2016-f0c36df59ee1069d65aa6a70a22d88cc
You are always stuck on the same BS that they keep proving is BS.
Voter fraud is not as dire as you keep making it out to be. Does it happen? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. Has it affected the outcome of an election? No.
You are stuck on this stupid belief that any absence of evidence is evidence that fraud occurred. That’s a mind of a conspiracy theorist rotten by constant paranoia over the lack of evidence.
Svelaz your dissembling is getting boring.
I made my case
Your responses are false and not on point.
DVS softwRE COUNtED THE VOTES.
Not election officials. It did so using software written by DVS, not the state
Software that is proprietary and not subject to review.
Software that the only certain way to test is an after the fact hand count of randomly selected machines –
something that some states have proposed but none have done.
There is no other form of testing that is not trivial do fool.
Further rigging the machines is something that can be done by as few as one person.
And this all presumes an inside job.
We also know from Maricopa county that while the tabulators were not hacked in 2020,
That they were all easily hacked.
I know 2 or 3 people who could hack tabulators and rig an election, and I could easily
find dozens.
You claim I am paranoid. Credit card sales in the US are much more secure than voting,
Yet eastern european hackers hit US banks for about $30B/year
You are not a tiny bit paranoid enough.
About a decade ago I was a founder of a startup that developed systems to decrypt encrpted emails.
We were able to do this 300,000 times fast than a high end PC. We sold one of these to each FBI field office in the country.
I was really angry when Comey tried to get apple to put a back door into IOS.
For a fraction of What Comey paid in legal fees to fight and lose to apply, he could have called us up to develop new firmware for the systems we sold him to crack Iphones.
You haven’t got a clue what can be done with software.
Thinkitthrough: You apparently missed by earlier comment @10:55 am. I watched the video of the mounted BP agents harassing and herding Haitian refugees like cattle. But I didn’t see anyone whipping them. So Ryan was wrong. Got it? Got that clear? But Turley seems to think the mistreatment of the Haitians, who were simply trying to flee violence in Haiti, was Ok as long as they were not whipped. In his column Turley doesn’t mention that the actions by the mounted BP agents are unlawful under US and international humanitarian law. Do you think actions by the BP agents were Ok?
So, you are right. I do “occupy the higher ground” because I deal in facts–not conjecture, unsupported conspiracy theories and the non-sense like you engage in every day!
Hillary Clinton still claims that the 2016 election was stolen from her.
The election WAS stolen. Even the CIA admits to interfering by circulating a false narrative about Hunter’s laptop having “all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation” just to give Joe Biden a talking point in the debates. The fraud was real and vast, as was the interference by Big TEch censorship, media blackouts, CIA interference, FBI interference, Zuckerburg interference, ballot harvesting, drop box stuffing, state laws being changed without the legislatures, etc.
You keep on believing the election was NOT stolen, which is the Big Lie, buddy. YOU are the one being lied to. Go get another “safe and effective” booster shot.
After Trump’s defeat in the 2020 election Tucker Carlson and other Fox hosts pushed the false narrative
No.
FOX interviewed people that presented evidence of corrupt actions at certain locations.
The media you believe, spent years accusing Trump of Russia collusion. The corrupt FBI and DOJ even launched Multiple counter intel investigations, and a Special Counsel investigations, with no evidence.
Maybe it is just Ryan. If you look at the picture presented by Ryan in her Twitter post you can plainly see that the border agent is holding the shirt of the illegal immigrant and the reins are just flying free. Why are we surprised? We have posters on this blog who still tell us that RussiaGate was true and that the Hunter laptop is Russian disinformation. It’s like talking to people that believe that Bigfoot really exist. The proper definition of these people is “crazy” which is described as a separation from reality. Ryan suffers from BVSD. Black Victim Derangement Syndrome. The presence of the symptoms is obvious.
TIT: there is NO “Russiagate”–READ the report of the REPUBLICAN Senate Committee that investigated the matter and concluded that Russia helped Turmp cheat his way into office. Why do you keep trying to pretend that this is not the truth? Do you think if you keep on saying “Russia, Russia, Russia” or use the fake word “Russigate” that the truth will go away? it won’t. I don’t know what’s on Hunter’s laptop, and, like most Americans, I don’t care, because there’s no proof that anything on there involved Joe Biden in any impropriety. Just HOW long have these matters been “investigated”–what have they come up with-zilch! There’s no equivalency here–Because he is repulsive to most Americans,Trump had to cheat to get into office, just like Republicans have to cheat and gerrymander to get and keep power because they have no platform that attracts Americans. Currently, they are threatening America with default and financial ruin by holding hostage monies already appropriated by Congress, demanding trhat these already-approved expenditures be cut as a condition for raising the debt ceiling–something never even suggested when the pig was in office when the debt ceiling was raised multiple times while tax receipts were cut back due to tax breaks that mostly benefitted the wealthy. BTW, the pig said, when he was stinking up the White House, that the budget should not be used as a bargaining tool–at the fake “town hall” on CNN, he said that the US should default. Why? Because he thinks it will help him politically. Anything to get that fat rump out there, in front of the cameras.
Trump 2024, baby!
REPUBLICAN Senate Committee that investigated the matter and concluded that Russia helped Turmp cheat his way into office.
Well this is new. Please, PLEASE tell me what Russia did to help Trump. The only think I know of. Russia spent ~$200,000 on face book ads. In a campaign that spent in excess of $2 Billion.
Oh and Gigi, $200K to face book…..compared to $10million to Biden family and associates.
The best part of this article is the statement that “It (the Biden Administration) would still punish them for offenses . . ..”. In the world of the Looney Left, if you are accused of something by a Left-approved source, the you must be guilty.
“…until you prove yourself innocent in court.” With Love, Nancy
Having an association of “black” journalists promotes unwarranted acclaim and egoism on the part of a person such as this. The term “analyst” should be dropped from a description of her job! And … I wonder … what if some journalists founded an association of “white” journalists?
Facts are anethema to the prog/left because they are so inconvenient in implementing their agenda to destroy America specifically and Western Culture in general. If we do not rise up to stop these fanatics we will lose. Talking on a blog does nothing, we need to neutralize them before they “Fundamentally Transform” this nation forever. We are near the tipping point.
OT;
It’s weird that Turley is ignoring the hoopla surrounding the Biden family “scandal” report by Comer. Because it’s turning out to be a real nothing burger, still.
“You don’t have any facts”: Fox News host calls out James Comer’s flailing Biden probe”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/you-don-t-have-any-facts-fox-news-host-calls-out-james-comer-s-flailing-biden-probe/ar-AA1b4jAF?cvid=171b179ebef24210b2f2df4c6970c924&ei=29
It seems all they have to show for this clown show is pure insinuations as “evidence”.
. . . and millions of dollars transferred to the Biden family “for some reason.”
The actors in countries such as the CCP or Eastern Europe happen to have so much excess cash, they just give it away. There are no strings attached. All you have to do is show up and they will give you millions of dollars also, expecting nothing in return. The really great part is that the recipient doesn’t have to show this on their IRS filings. If they get in trouble with the IRS for some reason, there are plenty of billionaires to bail them out and give them forgivable interest free loans. It’s all good.
Nothing to worry about then.
He hasn’t talked about Santos either
I’m interested in the fact the Executive branch ( FBI) used confidential human sources inside congress to spy in the Congressional branch of government. Separation of powers must not be a thing anymore.
And yes. We can ignore $10million of funds from China and Romania, funneled into the Biden Family. (also ignore that 10 days Biden allowed a Chinese balloon to gather real time intel on our military bases. Quid meet pro quo.
We’ve had race riots and looting every thirty years–like clockwork. We had race riots in the first decade of the 20th century; again, in Chicago during WW II; yet again in Watts during the 60’s; more again in LA during the 90’s; and now like never before. It’s a generational thing.
In most cases, efforts were already underway to improve the black condition: from Eleanor Roosevelt to the Voting Rights Act, etc. And yet blacks riot. And yet their communities remain dysfunctional.
This isn’t about racism. It would be wonderful news if it were. All we would have to do is change our attitudes and the problems would go away. Urban blight disappears. Crime vanishes. Everybody wins. And everybody believed it–decades ago.
Seventeen trillion dollars later, and it didn’t work nearly as well as anybody had hoped. We have tried, the lies of Communist eggheads and black activists notwithstanding.
This is simply America’s immortal curse for slavery. Every thirty years, we have to punish a fresh crop of malcontents, or the crime wave and abject lunacy will just get worse.
I’ve been here before, and you will be here, again. There will be riots and looting in 2050, I promise. Doesn’t matter what you do or say.
Refund the police and get on with it. The Democrats won’t do it, so we all know what that means.
I really hesitated about posting this comment because the truth can be harsh. Forgive me for that.
And forgive me for being off topic. April Ryan, a black activist posing as a journo, caused all this to well up in my mind.
You. Weren’t. There. Ms Ryan. It matters not what you *think* or *say* happened, the only thing that matters is what has already been confirmed, that it *didn’t*.
“Ryan appears incensed and stated ‘I’m sorry, I saw it differently.'”
In other words: Facts be damned. My desires are reality.
That’s not journalism. That’s delusional disorder.
April Ryan is a committed communist foot soldier. Lenin would be proud. Hell, she can even selectively edit video coverage of Border Patrol Agents on horseback in her mind. Truly amazing ! For what it’s worth, I graduated in the 107th Border Patrol class when Retired Marine Corps General Leonard Chapman was our INS Commissioner and we never whipped anyone. Thank you, Jonathan, for an excellent article.
Even the pursuit of a woke definition of “fair balance” qualifies as an objective, thus requiring objectivity in its pursuit. These folks have taken stupidly where no man has gone before.
“Nevertheless, she has been repeatedly honored by the media, including her selection as “Journalist of the Year” by the National Association of Black Journalists. That brand of journalism was on display yesterday when Ryan shocked many by repeating the proven false allegation against border agents accused of whipping migrants.”
********************************
You know its crazy but a lot of the black prominent figures I see are the poorest representaives of their race. There are so many fine African-American lawyers, judges, doctors, professors and other professionals along with business people and just good citizens who are smart, fair, well-spoken and conservative and who could do a so-much-better-job than these bumbling talking heads who get the airtime. It must make a lot of them cringe when their hear that kinda Stupid. It’s like portaying all Italian-Americans on TV as mobsters – demeaning, degrading, insulting and untrue. Maybe it’s the Leftism that makes them dumb:
Color has nothing to do with crazy. see e.g. @ Joe Biden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbE2SmV2bs
*btw, that was one of his more lucid moments.
CNN, MSNBC, NPR, etc. These organizations have massive power. They abuse it regularly, and with impunity. What comes to my mind is what Adam Schiff continually claimed about “Russian collusion” and Trump, and the media went with it. Consider this please from the Bible:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12…They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Randy Perkins,
I have to respectfully disagree with you about their power.
All you have to do is change the channel or switch them off.
Or if you possess critical thinking skills, you can listen to what they are supposedly reporting on, see through their bias and come to your own conclusion.
I would include Fox news with that as well.
Upstate Farmer,
Omitting items that should be reported on is a big deal. Like the HB laptop and selling out American foreign policy. And reporting on things that are fake like “Russian collusion” are critical. That item made headlines for three years. It drives the narrative and that drives the agenda. Impeachment anyone? Sure, one can turn off or change channels. Getting traction in a world full of lies and lying media is difficult. Look at the House committees (Biden Crime Family) getting ignored. The FBI ignoring subpoenas and the media ignoring the story. That is HUGE.
I’ve been using the 2 Thessalonians ‘powerful delusion’ passage for years to explain why, from a Christian perspective, the Gay Pride movement is the worst thing that has ever happened to people who have struggled with their homosexuality. Once you are convinced your actions are not against God’s laws, you no longer have a reason to ask for forgiveness and thus have lost any hope of grace and salvation through Christ. In more general terms, if you refuse to acknowledge your sins (of any kind) you are doomed to eternal death and damnation.
And in one sense the powerful delusion is God’s final act of mercy for them by allowing them to live out their remaining time free of the burden of a guilty conscience (the only thing that could have led them to salvation) and delighting in their wickedness.
If the “journalist” did not have lies to print then what would they do? The truth is so mundane and not fun.
Lies keep getting propagated despite being disproved. Not to bring up Trump but the whole Trump Russia thing ended up as a nothing burger and Mueller pursued no charges but if you read recent history like in some textbooks or journalist accounts, he was tried, convicted and sentenced for Russia Collusion. I only use him as an example because there are more. And sometimes we outright convict people who are charged but never convicted and ruin lives even if exonerated. All because the Press must be protected. I think the Sullivan doctrine of the SCOTUS should be re-evaluated and made more in line with current technology and social trends. I respect the right of the press to shed light and unearth wrong-doing but it does not give them the right to destroy people with no proof and no repercussions.
*Like* times infinity. A corrupt press ultimately harms it’s readers/listeners/viewers more than it ever helps.
Idiocy is inborn yet refined and re-enforced by life experiences. Remarkable how many of these rise to positions of influence in our society. The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves.
IQ is destiny.
The hack journalist got slammed on Twitter because her race-hustling is so obvious, and her lack of intelligence so offensive that she really couldn’t fool many. This is why we need a meritocracy rather than a “diversity” system.
Her right to lie (also her right to be stupid).
But she has viewers!!!
They pay attention to a known liar.
That makes the viewers even more stupid.
“They pay attention to a known liar.
That makes the viewers even more stupid.”
LOL!!!!
Kinda like Trump’s supporters, right?
Oh the irony.
“Kinda like Trump’s supporters, right?“
Your statement sounds stupid. Why don’t you tell us what you mean.
Same viewers watch a show from the ABC news division….THE VIEW.