We have been discussing the nationwide effort to disqualify former President Donald Trump from ballots in key states under a novel theory using Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Yesterday, a Michigan judge was the latest to dismiss the effort to prevent voters from being able to vote for Trump.
As many of you know, I have been a vocal critic of the theory as unfounded and dangerous. While figures like Harvard Professor Laurence Tribe have assured the public that Trump is clearly disqualified under the theory, it is based on unsustainable historical and legal interpretations in my view. For that reason, I have welcomed rulings to allow these claims to be reviewed on appeal. It has not fared well. While some have misrepresented past rulings, Tribe and others are still seeking a favorable judge.
State Judge James Robert Redford rejected the challenge and found that the courts lack the claimed authority under the theory. Judge Redford also rejected the effort of Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson (D) under state law to remove candidates from the ballot based on that provision.
An appeal is now expected to proceed and the matter could well end up in front of the Supreme Court.
Last week, the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled in a similar case that Trump could not be removed from the primary ballot in that state. Another ruling is expected soon out of Colorado.
I have previously addressed the constitutional basis for this claim. It is, in my view, wildly out of sync with the purpose of the amendment, which followed an actual rebellion, the Civil War.
As previously discussed, the 14th Amendment bars those who took the oath and then “engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same.” It then adds that that disqualification can extend to those who have “given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.” According to these experts, Jan. 6 was an “insurrection” and Trump gave “aid and comfort” to those who engaged in it by spreading election fraud claims and not immediately denouncing the violence.
But even the view that it was an “insurrection” is by no means a consensus. Polls have shown that most of the public view Jan. 6 for what it was: a protest that became a riot. One year after the riot, CBS News mostly downplayed and ignored the result of its own poll showing that 76 percent viewed it for what it was, as a “protest gone too far.” The view that it was an actual “insurrection” was far less settled, with almost half rejecting the claim, a division breaking along partisan lines.
Advocates of this theory like Benson are arguing that they are protecting democracy by denying the ability of tens of millions of Americans to vote for their preferred candidate. Nothing says democracy like barring the choice of voters. It is a practice that is common in nations like Iran where the government scrubs the ballots of unacceptable candidates.
Hopefully, these courts will expedite these rulings to allow the matter to reach the Supreme Court for a final and definitive ruling. These challenges are spreading uncertainty on the choices that will be allowed for voters — a dangerous and dysfunctional effort.
Here are the opinions:
Turley should write an article about how otherwise good government servants work in bureaucratic “systems” that destroy good Americans.
You can put good, intelligent and caring people into a system that creates genuinely evil results. Even the government officials working there can’t reform those evil systems.
For example: my neighbor is a federal bureaucrat that works in a security agency. He teaches his kids right from wrong. Teaches them to take responsibility and apologize if they make a mistake.
The bureaucracy my neighbor works for has let thousands of innocent Americans become destroyed for over 20 years of blacklisting. Apparently the bureaucratic “system” instead of apologizing and making their victims whole again is simply waiting for them to die – with no apology, no taking responsibility and continuing with as “business as usual”.
The system also conveniently ignores that local and state officials (Fusion Centers) committed likely one of the greatest frauds in American history. Likely in order to grab federal tax dollars, local and state governments “uploaded” highly flawed blacklists from as far back as the 1980’s.
In other words, “Persons of Interest” (unconstitutional term of a target with lower evidence than “suspect”) from as far back as the 1980’s were fraudulently “uploaded” onto post-9/11 blacklists to grab federal tax dollars.
In real practice, this potentially means a boy that broke up with the cop’s daughter in high school might have been blacklisted by their local police department in the 1980’s. Then illegally blacklisted, abused and probably framed over 20 years. Then 9/11 comes along and those same local police departments add this guy to a 9/11 blacklist – to embezzle federal tax dollars.
This can also happen to non-government family members of intelligence and security personnel. Federal agencies can destroy the family members of American heroes working on covert operations.
Fusion Centers are funded by DOJ and DHS, so these agencies won’t intervene to correct this violation of civil rights and constitutional rights.
Net result: as of 2023, there are likely thousands of totally innocent Americans blacklisted for over 40 years total harmed for life). The agencies are raking in federal tax dollars destroying innocent Americans.
Congress has known this was happening for at least 20 years, but they won’t simply defund “unconstitutional” practices at Fusion Centers or local, state and federal agencies.
Maybe 50 years from now, an overpaid historian will claim we ought not to have done those evil things.
The problem with waiting 50 years, it doesn’t stop the bureaucracies evil practices today. It creates no deterrent-effect to prevent future evils from happening. It provides no accountability to anyone or any flawed system.
America’s bureaucratic systems are broken. It might require a constitutional amendment to fix it. Your tax dollars at work!
Jonathan Turley: You often complain about the “age of rage”–much of which you blame on the Dems and the left-wing. Now we have a case that doesn’t support your claim. And you can’t blame this one on the Dems.
Yesterday, GOP Senator Markwayne Mullin stood up at a hearing, chaired by Bernie Sanders, and challenged labor leader Sean O’Brien to a fist fight. Mullin was mad that O’Brien mocked Mullin on social media and told him to “stand up your butt”. Sanders had to bang his gavel and told Mullin: “Sit down. You’re a United States Senator!”
Predictably, Fox News, where you work, had their own spin on the incident. Sean Hannity interviewed Mullin on his show and bizarrely told his guest: “He called you out. You called him out for calling you out. And that’s the kind of old school the way it used to be…Any other response kind of would have been a little gutless”. Mullin responded that it was all about “political correctness” and “If I didn’t do that, people of Oklahoma would be pretty upset at me…I’m supposed to represent Oklahoma values”.
So for Hannity and Mullin it’s acceptable for a US Senator to get up and challenge a witness to a fist fight. It reflects Oklahoma “values”. Sorry, Senator Mullin, what may be acceptable on a childhood playground is not acceptable for adults in the Senate. “Political correctness” requires civility. Violence is not acceptable at a Senate hearing and one would hope your kind of behavior is not part of Oklahoma “values”.
You work for Fox as their legal analyst”. Hannity thinks violence is justified in this “age rage”. Do you endorse Hannity’s views?
Good points!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t Fox News owners foreign born?
It’s kinda odd how they cherry-pick their news coverage in a way that harms America. Not sure American born owners would cover it that way.
I saw the entire exchange – while there is much more to it that you claim.
And more generally republican congressmen are getting frustrated at the bold faced lying that is being done by various witnesses in congress.
Regardless, the bad conduct was not initiated by Mullins. Though Mullins should have been wise enough to back down.
Bernie Sanders stopped this – wisely for Sanders.
Sanders did not tell Mullins – “Your wrong”.
He said “For god’s sakes you are a US Senator, sit down”.
And Mullins sat down.
Where were you when Biden threatened to Take Trump behind the Barn ?
Mullin’s should not have allowed himself to be goaded.
But again – the misconduct was initiated by the Democrat.
Just as Joe Biden made the Threat to litterally slug it out with Trump.
“But again – the misconduct was initiated by the Democrat.”
No it wasn’t. Mullins issued the challenge first. He was whining about previous insults and slights.
Mullins stood up first after challenging him to a fight. Don’t make excuses for Mullins who clearly can’t control his temper. It was embarrassing for Mullins to be held back by Senders. He was wrong to challenge someone to as fight during a senate hearing. It’s on him to be the more mature person. This is the new norm for republicans. They can’t govern and they throw tantrums when they can’t get their way
Mullin’s did not engage in violence. No one did.
Can we atleast get a grip on reality.
If you wish to criticise Mullins for what he did – be my guest. We do expect more out of US senators that democratic operatives.
Sen.Mullins conduct does not comport with what should be expected of US Senators regardless of the misconduct of witnesses.
I will stand behind you on that.
As to violence.
That should be trivial to understand.
The entire purpose of government, the basis for the social contract is the elimination of violence.
In a perfect world – violence would never be justified.
We do not live in a perfect world.
In the world that we live in Violence is rarely justified.
It is justified in response to violence – self defense.
But lets address political violence “insurrection”.
Is that ever justified ?
I would sugest you read the declaration of independence.
In a perfect world – political violence is never justified.
We live in the real world.
The declaration of independence makes it clear – we are not justified in resorting to violence in response to every egregious act on the part of government.
HOWEVER we are entitled to use force – violence to destroy a govenrment that has become destructive of the only legitimate and of government – protecting our rights.
PRO-LABOR LEGISLATION IS BIASED, ILLICIT FAVORITISM, AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL
PRO-LABOR LEGISLATION MUST BE ABOLISHED AND REPEALED
Sean O’brien is a criminal who runs a criminal origination. Americans are free to establish a business or accept or reject employment. Unions have nothing to bargain with. Unions threaten and commit illegal and violent acts, as they intimidate officials and citizens. Unions are antithetical, illicit and unconstitutional. Unions’ tough-guy “bosses” have no rationale or authority to enter the Senate of the United States of America. They are frequently entered as criminals into U.S. penal systems. America must stop legitimizing criminal unions and their criminal thug leaders. Labor legislation is unconstitutional.
The psychotic, power-hungry Rhonda “Randi” Weingarten has utterly ruined American public “education,” actually propagandization and indoctrination. “We will stop him,” FBI Special Agent Peter Strzok, with reference to Real President Donald J. Trump. The high criminal Strzok should have said, “We will stop the criminal unions and their criminal union bosses.”
While you have several factual errors as well as logical errors in your post
You – and Sanders are correct – this is the US Senate not a childhood playground.
Aside from your errors and spin it was still wrong for Mullins to take the witnesses bait.
That is no appropirate conduct – and OK voters will get to consider that when Mullins is up for reelaction.
Just as Franken’s conduct – grabbing the breasts of a sleeping reporter were also not appropriate conduct.
None of this does anything to dismiss the fact that the “age of rage” is the product of Democrats.
Democrats have implimeted a number of policies – either federally or at the local level over the past 3+ years.
Concerrent with those policies we have seen spikes in all forms of violence. We have seen spikes in drug deaths, suicides,
and a long list of other maladies that we are all suffering from.
I have not enumerated the specific policies – because although it is common sense that if you do not prosecute crime, you will get more crime.
We are beyond common sense. The FACT is those policies have FAILED spectacularly.
Had Democrats gotten toughh on crime and had the same results, if would be honest to conclude that those tough on crime policies failed.
Had the new democratic policies succeeded – if we actually had lower violent crime an improved economy, we could conclude those policies succeeded.
But the FACT is those policies FAILED …… they also FAILED predicatably.
The individuals who commit murders rapes and other violent crimes are personally responsible for their conduct.
They are responsible whether they are black or white, rich or poor, democrat or republican.
Violent criminals are NOT entitled to blame democratic policies for their own bad conduct.
But the rest of us ARE legitimately entitled to blame democrats for the systemic failures we are seeing follow their policies.
Separately from that the left as a whole with the full participation of democrats is pushing a cult of victimhood, on all of us.
The left is selling the irrelevant notion that everything that is wrong in our lifes is not our fault – which in SOME instances is true.
That our problems are all caused by the misconduct of oprressors – often long dead. Which is rarely true. And that some outside force – government, retribution, reparations can fix that – which is NEVER true.
If something bad has happened in your life – that may or may not be your fault.
That may or may not be the fault of some bad actor.
But the only person who can fix it is YOU.
When your ideology sells people that but for the bad acts of others everything would be great, and that some outside action can magically make everything better – they are not only lying to you, but they are permanently trapping you into in misery.
Many of us have experienced bad things in our lives. I would not wish on the rest of you the very bad things that have happened to me. Nor will I pretend to grasp the impact of whatever bad things have happened to you.
Regardless, you own your own life – no one else. No one else can fix it. Whether you have been raped, or contracted cancer There is no magic to regain your life. Only you can do that.
When your ideology is rooted in victim hood, it should come as no surprise that you amplify rage and anger.
Individual republicans and individual democrats are personally responsible for their own conduct.
But Democrats and more specifically the victim/opressor fixated left progressive are responsible for the society wide age of rage.
Aside from the obvious logical results of their ideology. They are also responsible, because they are the change that triggered all of this.
Trump and MAGA came second. are a response – pretty much by Definition. Conservatism Generally is resistance to change, not change,
The argument that a lack of change makes things work is incredibly weak.
Further Concervative, MAGA, Republicans more generally do not propose to change the world into something new.
They propose to restore the world to something old that they claim worked better.
While that could make things better or worse. It can never explain the relatively sudden abrupt increases in violence anxiety, depression that we have seen. However imperfect what republicans seek to return to may have been – we KNOW that it was not “the age of rage”
Responsibility for that rests with the left.
Nearly every allegedly right wing protestor here has criticised the “right” for something.
I have frequently identified Things Trump has done or said that “go too far”.
In posts below I have noted that though Sen. Mullins conduct is FAR from extreme, and Far from what we see everyday from the left and far from unprovoked,
Still Mullins was WRONG. He is a US senator and we expect he will not take the bait.
When EVER have you been willing to criticize the left ?
Just recently Biden had the oportunity to stop by the march for Israel. I bi-partisan event on the mall. The leaders of the house and senate – republicans and democrats were ALL present and all jointly condemning Hamas and stating forcefully that the US will back Israel FOREVER.
Biden did not take the 2 min trip down the mall to put in an appearance.
Hoe many lefites here are willing to admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization ?
We can debate how to acheive peace between israel and palestine. I do not have the answer. If you think you do I would love to hear.
But frankly I do not know anyone who who has a credible answer.
How can we even have a discussion when so many on the left are unwilling to admit that Hamas is a terrorist group.
We have young left wing nuts marching in our cities – do not get me wrong – I 100% support their right to march, to march into the capitol and say stupid things. To attempt (successfully) to disrupt congress.
Where is the person on the left who is willing to admit that J6 protestors had the same right.
What ever you think about the views of J6 protestors – those Supporting Hamas are far worse and far stupider.
Many are comparing Hamas to Nazi’s – that is an insult to Nazis.
The Nazi’s conducted their most heinous acts in secret. The revolting Videos that Israel is showing were deliberately produce By Hamas
these people are proud of raping jews. murdering jews, burning babies. They are calling home and joyfully telling the mothers about all the jews they killed. Even the Nazi’s never did that.
Are you capable of saying that students protesting in favor of Hamas have gone too far ?
Is there anything those on the left have done that you are willing to condemn ?
One can only hope the courts maintain their sanity. I am no Trump fan, but this is a ridiculous tactic. Regardless of what one thinks of him, he has never been charged or convicted with treason or like minded crimes. That means in plain English, he has not committed a reason out crime, this this does not apply to him. Being a singularly irritating person may be a reason to not vote for him, but not a reason to not allow him on a ballot.
I always wonder if it was Bill Clinton or Joe Biden, would these same anti-ballot people pushing this narrative be of the same opinion.
“Being a singularly irritating person may be a reason to not vote for him,”
I’m going to vote for “a singularly irritating person” that loves America and wants the best for her than one who’s not so irritating but has a vision that is completely anti-American.
Did Tom get banned?
Nope. did you?
I think I was given a timeout lol.
Tur
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America is not a constitutional rule of law nation. We are not a Christian nation.
Guantanamo Bay is still open in 2023, one of the most evil human rights abuses in the world. Even if Bush officials fooled us in the early 2000’s, we now know about 90% or more had no evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever.
For more than 20 years the USA has blacklisted at least 40,000 American citizens on U.S. soil, not including some of Trump’s supporters after January 6.
Most of the 40,000 blacklisted (predating the January 6 coup attempt) – there is no evidence of any wrongdoing. This destroyed innocent Americans on U.S. soil, likely resulting in premature death.
That means today local, state and federal officials are “criminal accessories-after-the-fact” to war crimes. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.
In the years to come, agency heads and top management could be criminally prosecuted and spend decades in prison – officials from FBI to NSA to DOD and other agencies.
If Americans are the good guys, why is it anyone is okay destroying fellow Americans? America has perpetrated a great evil onto it’s citizens and nobody cares.
You can’t be a Christian or American ignoring this evil over the past 20+ years! War crime victims will get their day in the war crimes court. Top Bush officials will be held accountable.
In Allah We Trust.
Groomer says what?
https://www.thewrap.com/slade-sohmer-the-recount-editor-in-chief-child-pornography-arrest/
Slade Sohmer, the now-former editor-in-chief of the left-leaning publication The Recount, was arrested on Friday on charges of possessing more than 1,300 images of child pornography including images of toddlers, according to court documents.
Sohmer was released on $100,000 bail on Monday, after being charged with two counts of possession and two counts dissemination of child pornography.
Berkshire Assistant District Attorney Marianne Shelvey told TheWrap on Tuesday that Sohmer’s collection of images and videos, some involving children as young as 3 or 4 years old, was “one of the most egregious cases” she had ever seen.
In addition to the imagery, authorities obtained text chats, also allegedly from Sohmer, sharing how to kidnap and rape a child. Shelvey said the disturbing chats added “a level of extreme cruelty” to the case.
Sohmer, 44, was dismissed from his job as editor last month, around the time the Berkshire District Attorney began an investigation into allegations of child porn.
He faces between five to 10 years if convicted on the charges. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges. He is due back in court on Dec. 21.
Sohmer — who also has worked as a camp counselor for a New York City-based nonprofit
You may be correct that some Islam-Americans have been unfairly blacklisted, indeed unfairly convicted, in the wake of 9/11. Based on what we now know about the FBI, it would not be surprising. I hope someone in the second Trump administration takes a look at this issue. You may want to write to a journalist with some influence, such as Glenn Greenwald or Tucker Carlson.
EM The FBI has been corrupt for a long long time.
I am most definitely NOT with the “only a few bad apples” group.
There may be only a few good apples.
There is an endless history of political and other misconduct by the FBI through my entire lifetime.
Sometimes that was towards blacks, orther towards muslims, or targeting alleged white supremecists, or ….
There is pretty much no time int he past 60 year that the FBI was not engaged in rampant unconstitutional malfeasance.
If your idea of right and wrong is purely political – sometimes the FBI was engaged in malfeasance against your enemy, others it was targeting your friends. Sopmetimes it was just plain corrupt.
I would further note – this is not limited to the FBI – There does not appear to have been a single thing the CIA has not botched since its founding. DOJ is no better.
Give government power and it will be abused – with certainty.
“Michigan Court Rejects Effort to Disqualify Donald Trump”
– Professor Turley
____________________
Wait! You mean there’s a court in the land that can read the law and apply it impartially and without personal ideological bias?
Darn! That court would have immediately declared Obama ineligible and thrown the high criminal, “Crazy Abe” Lincoln, and his communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO, AINO) successors in prison for good.
Oh, my! America would be “un-fundamentally transformed,” back on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, its government severely limited and restricted, and individual Americans would be free again.
Why isn’t Brandon disqualified for aiding and abetting the enemies of America!
January 20th, 2025. Do you Donald Trump solemnly swear? Congratulations Mr. President.
OT: I wasn’t a Nikki Haley supporter and this should end her campaign.
https://twitter.com/TheChiefNerd/status/1724527996642480599?
Yes. It should.
She has the crazy bug bursting lib eyes as she delivers her dictat.
She probably was thinking of Prof. Turley’s blog.
If she was thinking at all, it was how best to lose conservative voters.
This was my comment.
Olly,
Any idea when that interview happened?
Apparently yesterday, on two separate shows.
https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/nikki-haley-social-media
Nikki Haley demonstrates The Importance of Being Earnestly Stupid.
And the persecution, I mean prosecution goes on. 8 years and counting.
Below one comment mentioned General Milley, I’d say this individual should have NEVER been the head of the Pentagon.
His failures are beyond description the most glaring is his contacting the Chinese on two occasions October 30 and his call on January 8th to General Li. He tries to assuage his actions by placing blame on Defense Secretary Esper and then acting Secretary Miller, yet his boss through the chain of command was the President of the United States the Command and Chief of all the military.
He stated “The specific purpose of the October and January calls was generated by concerning intelligence which caused us to believe the Chinese were worried about an attack on them by the U.S. He further stated “My task at that time was to de-escalate. My message again was consistent: calm, steady: De-escalate. We are not going to attack you.”
Who gave him the authority to make a policy statement?
Responding to George W:
When someone can’t debate the issue, they attack the messenger.
The bottom line is Mark Mikey’s 2023 retirement speech explains the American Oath of Office loyalty oath is arguably the most accurate speech on American loyalty in 50 years. Yes the human-messenger that said it may not be perfect.
Does anyone disagree with the actual truth and substance of Miley’s speech?
Both Trump and George W. Bush supported a loyalty oath to a single person (ie: Monica Goodling purging the DOJ of non-Bush loyalists). Both Trump and Bush advocated something Nazi Germany subscribed to – the polar opposite of America’s loyalty oath. Miley’s speech was spot on!
So was Woodward lying when he accused Milley of promising to warn the Chinese of an imminent attack by the U.S.?
I have not read Miley’s speech. Miley has behaved so excrebly I do not care what he has to say.
I have no idea what you are talking about about loyalty oaths. The Trump claim is bs.
All members of the government swear an oath to uphold the constitution.
If you work in the executive and you BELEIVE the president has asked you to do something unconstititonal,
You MUST resign, and then you can speak out.
This is true whether the president is Trump or Biden.
The President was elected. You were not.
To be clear – I absolutely expect that you will resign and speack out if you are asked to do something unconstitutional.
If you are not prepared to do that then you MUST do as the president directs.
There is no middle ground. There is no Ignore the president and do as I please. That BTW would violate your oath to uphold the constitution – because the constitution says the President holds ALL executive power – not you.
This is also important because if you are unwilling to resign and speak out – it is likely that your allegedly unconstitutional act is just something you do not like.
Regardless the test of peoples character is how they deal with being on the horns of a moral dilema.
Pussy footing arround and sabotaging your superiors is not a moral choice.
Respectively disagree with Turley. January 6 absolutely was an insurrection.
The day January 6, 2021 was targeted precisely because it was an official constitutional function.
Evidence strongly indicates Trump was preparing for this insurrection prior to the November 2020 election. No in-person voting had even happened and Trump was planning what to do if he lost. Trump had plans for the military to seize voting machines.
63 judges (including Trump appointed judges) unanimously ruled Biden won the election.
Trump leading up to and on January 6 then tried to coerce Mike Pence to not do his constitutional duty, not certify the election results. Trump knew that his supporters constructed an actual gallows made of wooden 4×4’s and rope (strong enough to actually execute someone). And that they then threatened to hang Pence. Trump supporters stockpiled weapons in hotels outside of Washington DC for backup reinforcements.
According to Secret Service logs, Trump wasn’t allowed to attend because there were protesters with long rifles in trees.
Capitol Police and Secret Service radio traffic transcripts confirms Trump supporters didn’t just trespass but were actually hunting for Mike Pence, Nancy Pelosi and other leaders trying to perform constitutional due process.
Trump watched the whole thing on TV and did nothing for about 3 hours. When an insurrectionist was shot and killed, Trump finally did his duty after it was too late.
I’ve never heard of a protest, where the protesters bring mace, bear spray, zip-ties, lumber and rope to build an actual gallows used for executions. Sounds like an insurrection to me.
“Respectively disagree with Turley. January 6 absolutely was an insurrection.”
And you are wrong. It ABSOLUTELY was not. Insurrection is not an event, like a picnic. It is a crime, perpetrated by criminals. It is defined in 18 USC 2383.
Who are the insurrectionists, charged and convicted under 18 USC 2383?
Of course, you have every right to be wrong. Enjoy it.
Jimmy, if you are correct than why haven’t any of the Jan 6 participants been charged with insurrection. Let me give you the answer. The Prosecutors know that charges of insurrection would not stick so they shunned a charge of insurrection like the plague. I see that you caught the malady in full force.
WTF are you talking about??? Maybe “Thinkitthrough” is a terrible choice of screen name for you.
You made exactly the same point I did. Yikes.
Sort of like top Bush officials violating Ronald Reagan’s torture treaty – a felony crime under federal law, just not enforced.
Article VI of the Constitution also makes it highly disloyal for any American to torture, blacklist or use cruel treatment.
Or former AG John Ashcroft abusing the federal “Material Witness Statute” to be use as a punitive interrogation tool. Also a federal crime – simply not enforced.
The elite class do what they want, regardless of any laws.
Anonymous, thank you for your wisdom but 76% of Americans believe that Jan 6 was a riot gone bad. Yet somehow you think that you’ve got it right. The more the Democrats try to keep Trump off the ballot the better the polls are for Trump. Now that right there is a winning strategy for the Democrats. Plant palm on face and keep it up. By the way Anonymous, you also told us that CRT wasn’t being taught in schools. Do you think we have forgotten?
TIT, all publicity is good publicity. Trump doesn’t have enough money to buy all this publicity.
The Jan 6 gallows was to a real gallows what the Spinal Tap Stonehenge monument was to a real Stonehenge monument.
To see the real scale, the attached article provides some interesting pictures:
https://taylerhansen.substack.com/p/the-january-6th-gallows-hoax
Wow!
I am shocked.
The “This is Art” sign on the side just blows my mind.
It also makes clear that J6 protestors KNEW ahead of time all the stupid things the left was going to say – and prepared for it.
But it did not matter – because the left does not care about the truth if they can find a camera angle to deceive people.
The only “insurrection” in history during which the “palace guards” opened the gates and escorted the “insurrectionists” into the capitol.
With a whopping 38.9% election “mandate,” “Crazy Abe” Lincoln unconstitutionally denied the fully constitutional right to secession, imposed martial law, seized power, invaded a sovereign foreign nation, commenced an unconstitutional war without authority or declaration, suspended habeas corpus, suspended freedom of speech, suspended freedom of the press, threw political opponents in prison, conducted brutal total war against businesses, farms, cities, civilians, etc., failed to deport illegal aliens and enforce extant immigration law, “fundamentally transform[ed] the United States of America,” and nullified American fundamental law, after merely 71 years of freedom.
63 judges (including Trump appointed judges) unanimously ruled Biden won the election. </i
Leftist are forced to lie, because the facts just don't support their fantasies.
63 judges refused to hear any evidence claiming a series of legal slight of hand to prevent any evidence from seeing the light of day.
The 2020 election was close, so Trumps questioning of the outcome was reasonable. Al Gore questioned his loss to George Bush, that was a reasonable position to take, I think. Trump’s refusal to accept the election results, given what went on before, the nefarious tactics Democrats used to try and destroy his Presidency (even before it got started), was another reason why it was reasonable for Trump to believe maybe the election was stolen. The Democrats spent three years pushing this phony “Russia Collusion” narrative, a totally BS story. Also, the Democrats impeached Trump twice for no good reason – there was no evidence that Trump did much of anything to warrant impeachment, but they went ahead with the impeachments anyway. The impeachments were not “fair”, in my view, not even close, the Democrats actually tried to “frame” Trump by using evidence that was phony, as Trump’s lawyer reported eloquently in TV interviews. Given these things I think Trumps belief that the elections results were not really accurate, that some fraud took place, is to some degree understandable. This effort to keep Trump off the ballot in Minnesota and Michigan – is just more dirty tricks by the Democrats, in my view. Because Trump was the victim of all these dirty tricks by Democrats – including this business of the FBI spying on his Presidential campaign without a predicate – along with all these phony prosecutions that are targeted him now – it is understandable that Trump, and his supporters, would conclude the elections results in 2020 were tainted.
Huh, I think Tribe’s legal theory is stupid, wrong and totally unsupported by the legal and historical record. I also think his theory is an effort to undermine “our democracy” and subvert the intent of our Constitution. Nevertheless, I don’t think his erroneous legal advocacy is grounds for having him disbarred or indicted. That is where we differ most fundamentally.
Left Wing Nutty Liberal DEMS supported by George Soros and DEM Donors. They listen to radical discredited Left wing Harvard Legal so called Larry Tribe and associates. They will be doing this wherever they can, Supreme Court? If they take the case, the DEMS/Loons/NUTS will loooooooose.
Ain’t it funny how time slips away. If denying the outcome of an election is a crime that disqualifies a person from running for election there are a lot of Democrats who should be disqualified. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uoMfIkz7v6s. Not only did they deny the outcome of an election but they worked for four years to undermine the Administration of a duly elected President through the use of the lie known as RussiaGate. Even CNN had to eventually admit that it was a lie. When you have a political party that will try to overturn an election based upon a lie why should anyone believe that that they wouldn’t stoop to barring an opposition candidate from being on the ballot. And yet they have the gall to say that they are trying to save Democracy while promoting Hamas by reporting a lie about bombed hospitals. Will you continue to vote for bad people?
Quite frankly, the only enemies *Congress* saw on the 6th were their own constituents demanding an investigation to election results Team Blue, and only Team Blue, wanted to hurriedly rubber-stamp without investigating, “the seriousness of the charges”. “How dare they *demand* their voices be heard and concerns addresses by *us* (of all people), on this historic day we ignore them! Let them eat tear gas!”–The US Congress
Learning about efforts of Chris Krebbs, and the multiple recounts in various states will keep you from making silly comments like this.
Of course learning about factual reality can only help if you’re willing to accept the truth that the guy you backed lost.
Krebs is the proof of election fraud.
We were in the midst of a pandemic. Courts and executives took bare moments to completely change the way elections were conducted.
No sane and rational person expected that radical changes at the last minute by fiat outside the requirements of the law were going to work well.
You are entitled to beleive that there was no significant election fraud. It is a FACT that the election was a mess with problems all over.
ANYONE who tries to claim it was somehow perfect is NUTS.
Separately there were not lots of recounts. There were afew recanvases – mostly in single counties or precints and most of which picked up additional Trump votes.
That alone is actually damning. In a close election if you recount 20 different places, the gains and losses as a result of error will very close to balance. Lopsided results from recounts are indicia of fraud. In the small number of recanvasses that occured Trump picked up about 15,000 votes nationwide – a small number for sure – but then the election was decided by 44,000 votes, Conversely Biden picked up less than 500.
At the very least that required a thorough investigation that never happened.
Nationwide there were only 3 actual recounts – Antrim, Windham and Maricopa counties.
The Antrim and Windham recounts reinforce the FACT that the election itself was a gigantic mess, and that those claiming it was perfect, and clearly fraud free are clueless idiots. While those three recounts proved that in those 3 counties there was no Tabulator Fraud.
The Windham recount established a serious DVS problem with 85% of NH precincts that had been effecting NH elections for a decade.
While that problem did not effect the presidential election – it did result in large numbers of overvotes all in one direction in any election that fell on the fold line of a ballot.
The Maricopa country recount established that the DVS equipment had accurately counted the ballots.
It also established that the Maricopa county election processes were abysmally bad, that the DVS tabulators could have been hacked in a few minutes by a script kiddie. That the firmware int he tabulators was inconsistent. The Cyber Ninjas audit established that had AZ law been followed that almost 50% of Maricopa county ballots would have had to be rejected. And finally that in an election that Trump lost by 11,000 votes, that there were nearly 50,000 duplicate mailin ballots from only 13,000 voters. Whether you like it or not that is FRAUD.
I would separately note that the Time Magazine article where democrats celebrated the means and methods used to win the election is a confession of a massive illegal ballot harvesting operation.
The focus of democrats before the election, and the focus of those looking for fraud after the eleciton was almost entirely in 6 cities all of which had abnormal voting in 2020. Both abnormal relative to prior elections, but relative to similar locations in 2020.
It took FOIA requests and court orders but ultimately SOME of the video of unattended ballot boxes in those cities was pried out of the virulently resistant hands of democrats – somehow ALL video of ballot boxes in PA was destroyed violating state and federal election laws.
Regardless, in the limited video that was ultimately obtainable there were hundreds of examples of large scale organized ballot harvesting.
Ballot harvesting is illegal in 49 states in the US. Many past elections were tossed as a result of evidence of ballot harvesting.
A 2018 NC congressional lection was tossed and more recently the Mayors race in Bridgeport CT was tossed using video showing ballot harvesting. The estimate in CT was that 37% of mailin ballots were harvested.
Yet those of you on the left want us all to beleive that the 2020 election conducted in the messiest fashion ever, still had absolutely no problems at all ANYWHERE.
You really expect us all to beleive that the video from Bridgeport reveals large scale fraud, while that from Atlanta, Pheonix, Nevada, Detriot, and Milwaukee is inconsequential ?
You really expect us all to beleive that the same people who had no problem violating the first amendment to use the federal government and federal contreactors to engage in political censorship specifically to alter the 2020 election outcome would not also engage in ballot harvesting ?
Whether you like it or not – large scale Fraud in the 2020 election has been PROVEN.
Nearly every alphabet agency in the federal government excercised government power to censor political speech in the 2020 election.
In addition the federal government paid 501C3’s to engage in even more political censorship.
It is 2023. We are Drip by Drip slowly learning of the extent of the Corruption of Joe Biden.
Actually that is incorrect – I am learning NOTHING new. I and people who do not rely on the left wing nut media KNEW of this corruption in 2018. We were familiar with the reporting of John Solomon on the antics of the Biden’s across eastern europe.
We were called conspiracy theorist pushing debunked right wing conspiracies.
Those of you on the left have LIED about absolutely everything, and you have tried to SILENCE those who have exposed your LIES.
You do not seem to understand – you have no credibility – not on elections. not on anything.
“Separately there were not lots of recounts. There were afew recanvases – mostly in single counties or precints and most of which picked up additional Trump votes.”
Nope. There were five states conducting recounts and only one showed Trump won. The rest showed Biden won and even by a higher margin than originally shown (Arizona)
Some picked up a few dozen votes for Trump, but so did Biden which still put him ahead despite hand counts and forensic audits requested by Trump and contracted by republicans. Trump’s fraud claims did not pan out.
Many states have automatic recounts to verify accuracy. 5 states, not 3 had recounts and hand counts after the first recount. Trump lost on 4 of them. There were forensic audits, recounts and more recounts and hand counts all showing the same thing. No evidence of massive voter fraud claimed by trump.
https://the2020election.org/2020-election-recounts-and-audits/
“somehow ALL video of ballot boxes in PA was destroyed violating state and federal election laws.
Regardless, in the limited video that was ultimately obtainable there were hundreds of examples of large scale organized ballot harvesting.”
BS. You don’t show any evidence that videos were destroyed. The ones you mention were not showing that ballot harvesting was illegal. The pandemic did necessitate to make changes to election laws which were done legally and lawfully. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled the election changes were done properly.
“Whether you like it or not – large scale Fraud in the 2020 election has been PROVEN.”
LOL! Not it wasn’t. That’s your opinion, not a fact. What you wish it was true is not consistent with reality. This is where you spiral into conspiracy theory and pure allegation without evidence. Only the gullible and weak minded keep buying the nonsense you post.
Re counts of illegal ballots is not going to change anything.
Pay attention.
In just Atlanta, ballots that have zero chain of custody documents, are reason to toss, that run of ballots. They legally cannot be included in vote totals. Despite that, the Sec of State certified the election, and the legislature, doubled down on the fraud. The Constitution planned for such localized fraud and put in place several protections. One is the VP rejecting he Electoral Collage Slate of Electors from States that ignore proper election protocols. Failing that The House of Representatives can reject the Slate of electors from corrupt elections in States failing to properly run election.
Note the Final say through this process is always Elected officials, who’s actions can be decided at the ballot box.
The beauty of this system is no matter what, no matter if you agree or disagree, you have have the power to remove those renegade elected officials in two years.
Stopped reading when you blew right by the fact Georgia had three recounts. One by hand. Then you went all Cyberninja…, but at least the ninjas investigation even increased Biden’s winning count in Arizona.
You’re a clown, Johnny.
If you feign stupidity, don’t be surprised when you are called stupid. A recount doesn’t reveal election fraud, you nincompoop. Once the ballot and envelope are seperated, there is not “forensic audit”. Get a grip. Clown.
Turley: it’s been fun seeing you try to divide and conquer on the fact trump attempted insurrection by focusing on just the last aspect of his attempt to overthrow the governmant: January 6th. That riot was the last gasp of his insurrection, just part of a sweeping effort. And just because trump wasn’t able to start a hot Civil War in no way means he didn’t try. Trump fully deserves to be taken from the ballot. He is literally the guy the founders tried to protect against…, it’s just they didn’t account for an entire political party to align themselves with authoritarianism.
And yeah, if an entire party gives up on the governing principles in the Constitution, and that party’s spokespeople cooperate with the effort — well we can see where you stand on the issue and where your efforts are focused.
What is most disturbing about all of this is that intelligent people like Lawrence Tribe have bought this garbage.
If you think J6 was an insurection, then you will be pefectly fine With Trump locking up Clinton, and Strzok, and Mueller for their part in the Crossfire Huricane Coup.
J6 and the rest of Trump’s conduct was not the abandoment of the constitution – it was conformance with it.
The first amendment includes the right to free speech, the right to assembly and the right to petition government.
There is no exception for for speaking out against left wing election fraud.
The constitution specifies that congress will make the final determination of the validity of the election – there are no cermimonial powers in the constitution. Citizens are as constitutionally free to march into the capitol and demand that congress refuse to validate ANY election as they are to march into the capitol to demand that congress refuse to confirm Kavanaugh or refuse to provide aide to Israel. Both protests were more violent.
Turley keeps refering to polls as determinations of fact – such as whether J6 was an insurrection.
Facts are not determined by peoples opinion – even when the majority in this case is correct.
Had the J6 protestors been intent on Insurection – they would have suceeded.
Had 100,000 or 10,000, or 100 protestors with AR-15’s showed up at the capitol – They would have gotten what they wanted.
But then you leave in the unreality where Bidenomics is working. Where plant food is poison. Where Hamas is peaceful protestors.
Every individual component of trump’s insurrection was anti Constitutional. Trying to override state electors, tampering with voting machines, intimidating witnesses, inciting a riot…, all run against the Constitution and can only be made to appear otherwise through a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance.
Has he been convicted under 18 USC 2383? Charged even???
Then every word you said is a lie.
It is constitutional for state legislatures to apoint their own slates of electors – it has been done int he past and the federal courts long ago have explicitly noted that is the constitutional means by which state legislatures can respond to election misconduct by the executive.
The only voting machine tampering was by the left. Republicans in several instances – with the permission of locial election officials made copies of the data from election equipment usually months after the election.
Why are you so afraid of sunlight ? Why did democrats fight tooth and nail to prevent observation of ballot counting or review of the data in election tabulators ? or access to security camera covering ballot boxes or counting fascilities ?
If the election was conducted properly why are you trying to hide everything ?
Any election that is not completely open to public scrutiny is fraudulent by definition.
It is democrats that threatened any State or County prosecutor that investigated election fraud claims with disbarment.
That was the only intimidation in 2020. Wisconsin was an absolute mess. Sherifs had hundreds of instances of people in nursing homes who had died who voted, who were incompetent who voted, wven ones in coma who voted. The number of people in WI nrusing homes who voted in 2020 was more than 15 times what it had been previously. In WI shutins can vote absentee – they request absentee voting and the county sends an election official with a ballot to oversee their voting – this is because WI has a constitutional requirement for secret balloting.
Yet that is not what happened in WI in 2020. NH staff, or outside political operatives were requesting ballots for residents. They were voting for residents. This was being done without the knowledge of the residents, or their families.
WI Sherifs found thousands of instances of this type of fraud. They could not get a DA to prosecute – because even staunch replican DA’s in republican counties had been told by State Bar associations that if they brought election fraud cases – they would be disbarred.
That is the intmidation that took place in 2020.
And those of you on the left are STILL engaged in it.
Like it or no0t the conduct of Trump and his lawyers was legal and constitutional – and you have spent millions and forced them to spend illions defending themselves against spurilous charges.
The purpose of all this is to intimidate – not merely to intimidate Trump lawyers – but to make it clear to ANYONE who would in the future claim that Democrats cheat that they will be destroyed.
You hate Sydney Powell because she exposed the corrption of democrats in the Flynn case – not just the corrption of the FBI – but the corruption of the Mueller prosecutors and the corruption of the DC courts. So Powell must be destroyed.
Powell plead guilty to copying election data from a GA tabulotor under the supervision and with the permission of the chair of the county board of elections – a LEGAL ACT.
This is how immoral and disgusting those of you on the left are.
Stopped reading when you couldn’t even acknowledge Sidney Powell has pled, and been convicted of an effort to tamper with voting machines in Georgia.
Johnny, you sound like a guy having real problems accepting reality.
That’s for sure. John B. Say, quickly spirals into conspiracy theory whenever reality doesn’t align with what he wants to believe. The longer the posts the more detached from reality the argument becomes.
I have not positied a single conspiracy or theory.
You are the one disconnected from reality.
Rather than engagein ad hominem – try an actual argument.
How well did your nonsense that a court case over access to a post office box – which the Supreme court in the 2nd Sentence made clear was NOT a public forum fly ?
Plkease make an actual argument – with facts, with logic, with reason – with REAL law.
In the vast majority of cases, you are wrong about
the facts
The law
the constitution
logic.
And finally it requires little more than critical thinking that looks past the first order of your claims to grasp that:
THEY DO NOT WORK.
Some very simple realities – that should be obvious to all.
If how individual voters voted is not secret – they can and will be induced or coerced into voting as some other wishes.
We have historical evidence of that. Regardless, it is something that is obvious to most – yet not you.
It is why no credible election integrity study has ever not condemned mailin voting.
Conversley the process of elections MUST be conducted openly and in according with established laws.
Preferably ones that effectively constrain fraud.
“Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”
– John 3:19-21
You need not be christian to grasp that elections can not be conducted in the dark, and that those seeking to keep elections in the dark are hiding their evil.
You are the one disconnected from reality.
You are the one who has been caught constantly actually shilling fraudulent conspiracy theories
The FACT is that Powell did not “tamper” with a voting machine – her prosecution and plea is just further proof of the abuse of power of the left.
Powell made a sopy of the data from voting machines with the explicit permission of the county head of elections.
In what world is it that you beleive it is legitimate to HIDE anything about the conduct of an election.
This is really simple – if the data from voting machines is not subject to public scrutiny, then those machines can not be legitimately used in elections.
As to guilty pleas – There are over 1000 people on the exonerated list. These are people who plead guilty or were convicted of crimes who were later PROVEN to be 100% completely innocent.
Every single on of those 1000+ people CONFESSED to the crime they did not commit.
Powel struck a sweetheart deal that allows her to get on with her life rather than waste the next several years and millions of dollars fighting an illegal and unconstitutional prosecution.
There is ZERO question what Powell actually did.
There is ZERO question that her actions do not meet the definition of a crime – the illegitimate use of FORCE to cause harm to another.
Whether you like it or not – the social contract cedes to government the power to initiate the use of force in return for the protection by government of the people from the illegitimate use of force by others.
You can get a legislature to write any law you please. You can get a prosecutor to bend any law to claim a crime.
That does not change the FACT that government does not exist and can not legitimately control everything we do.
Law or legal interpretations that criminalize conduct that does not involve force, the threat of force to cause harm to others
violates the constitution, and violates the social contract.
You are litterally channeling Levanti Beria.
But then you left wing nuts are all marxist nutcases.
“It is constitutional for state legislatures to apoint their own slates of electors – it has been done int he past and the federal courts long ago have explicitly noted that is the constitutional means by which state legislatures can respond to election misconduct by the executive.”
True, but that is only if they follow certain state procedures. The states accused of trying to put forth fake electors did not follow the law. Those cases are still ongoing. Some fake electors have ready made plea deals in exchange for leniency.
“The only voting machine tampering was by the left. Republicans in several instances – with the permission of locial election officials made copies of the data from election equipment usually months after the election.”
Nope.
Republican election officials illegally granted access to voting machines and allowed copies of the system, not just data, to be given to unauthorized individuals. The election official is under indictment. This also happened in Michigan.
“Aug 7 (Reuters) – The Republican nominee for Michigan attorney general led a team that gained unauthorized access to voting equipment while hunting for evidence to support former President Donald Trump’s false election-fraud claims, according to a Reuters analysis of court filings and public records.
…”The Richfield security breach is one of four similar incidents being investigated by Michigan’s current attorney general, Democrat Dana Nessel. Under state law, it is a felony to seek or provide unauthorized access to voting equipment.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-trump-backed-michigan-attorney-general-candidate-involved-voting-2022-08-07/
Clearly Republicans were the majority of the perpetrators illegally getting access to voting machines and seeking to “Prove” election fraud.
“Like it or no0t the conduct of Trump and his lawyers was legal and constitutional – and you have spent millions and forced them to spend illions defending themselves against spurilous charges.”
No, it wasn’t legal. That’s why nearly all of them are under indictment or on trial or are in the process of being disbarred.
“True, but that is only if they follow certain state procedures. The states accused of trying to put forth fake electors did not follow the law.”
False. The only constraints on congress is the federal constitution.
The only constraint on state legislatures is the state constitution.
The US congress has on numerous occasions passed laws that constrain future congresses.
The supreme court has been universal in finding those laws unconstitutional.
Congress can make rules for itself. It can also ignore those rules.
I would note the same is true regarding the executive and judiciary.
Congress can not constrain the powers of the executive or judiciary that are the exclusive domain of the executive or judiciary.
Congress can not as an example impose ethics rules on the president or the supreme court.
The president or courts can impose rules on themselves, and they can waive those rules.
If you want rules that constrain a brnach of government inside its exclusive powers you must amend the constitution.
This is equally true of states.
Pelosi made a big deal of passing a new elections procedures act.
The portions of that act that constrain the states are valid. The portions that constrain the executive are valid.
The portions that constrain congress are meaningless.
This is one of he many errors that Pence made in claiming that what Trump asked him to do was unconstitutional.
First it literally was not unconstitutional, next if fully complied with the prior elections procedures act.
But finally, all that did not matter, because laws constraining congress in its execution of its exclusive powers are unconstitutional.
Every new congress adopts the rules for its operations. While most of these rules remain the same over centuries, there is absolutely no requirement that one congress adopt the same rules as the prior.
Democrats in 2018 rejected many rules that were centuries old and then even ignored many of the rules they adopted.
That was a blatant political power grab. As an example the operations of the J6 committee we in total violation of prior norms, They were conducted such that no one should trust them. But they were not unconstitional.
Because the constitution allows the congress to make its own rules, to violate its own rules.
The only rules that actually govern the conduct of congress in an election are those few in the constitution – otherwise it can do as it please. It has a power delegated to it exclusively by the constitution, and the only remedy for congress excercising it in a corrupt fashion is to vote congress out.
Exactly the same is true of the state legislatures. Not only are there no rules or procedures they must follow, but should such rules exist – the legislature is free to ignore them.
Absolutely legistlatures threatened by nut jog left wing prosecutors are striking deals to get on with their lives.
Especially faced with corrupt courts that have radically over extended their own power.
But the FACT is that the only constraint on the way that a legislature excercises its own powers are the free choices of a legislature.
And that the means by which they execute those powers is NOT subject to legislative or judicial review.
And there is tons of case law on exactly that.
As a glaringly large example – Grahm Rudman, as well as the later “sequester” were both found by SCOTUS to be unconstitutional.
Each congress is free to CHOOSE to follow the constraints that prior congresses imposed, OR NOT.
The only means to constrain the conduct of future congresses in the execution of their exclusive constitutional powers is by amending the constitution.
AGAIN this is not unique to congress, it is true of ALL branches of government. It is not unique to the federal government.
I know this is a violation of progressivism – which posits that those in power can do whatever they please to whomever they please.
Regardless, there is no power of any executive in the US – and that includes AG’s over the way that legislators conduct their legislative business. The prosecutions you are refering to are blatantly unconstitutional.
On J6 Congress was free to vote as it pleased regarding the 2020 election. They could do whatever they wanted.
VP Pece could conduct his role in that in any way that was not constrained by the constitution.
The house and senate could accept his actions or reject them as they pleased.
Members of the house and senate are free to negotiate among themselves. They are free to engage in what would be called bribery or black mail in any other context. They can trade votes with each other.
No one illegally got access to voting machines.
First republicans universally made COPIES of voting machines with the permission of local election chairs – that is LEGAL.
Well except in left wing nut world where anything they do not like is illegal.
All you are doing is continuing to demonstrate that you have weaponized your the government power that your party has acquired against your political enemies.
I would note that in the 2000 election – Gore and his lawyers had total access and oversight to the entire election process and to the recount that they demanded – over and over. Though not a full recount – just a recount of select areas they though they could pick up votes. None of this was illegal or unconstitutional. Gore and his people had full access to ballots, to voting machines, to oversight of the counting and recounting.
This is the norm. It is a requirement.
Gore and his lawyers went to court to fight over butterfly ballots and hanging chad – as was their right.
The entire election process was open to their scrutiny and challenge. There is no government power to hide the mechanisms by which an election is conducted. Gore did not have to prove malfeasance to gain oversight of the process.
Yet, that is precisely what you are constantly arguing regarding 2020.
You claim – despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, despite the fact that the election was conducted outside the law, that the election was perfect, and that scrutiny was not allowed absent proof beyond any doubt of Fraud.
That is NOT how it works. That is a violation of more than the law, and the constitutional that is a violation of the social contract which is the foundation for the legitimacy of government.
If the public can not gain access to data from voting machines – then elections can not be conducted using voting machines.
It is that simple.
Where in the world do you get the ludicrously stupid argument that the information on voting machines can be denied the public ?
The conduct of elections MUST be done under the bright spotlight of public scrutiny.
While neutral rules that neutrally impose order on election information are legitimate, efforts to deny public access to election information are themselves either crimes or unconstitutional.
Whether you like it or not in most states laws exist that assure public scrutiny of all aspects of elections.
The actual CRIME is the efforts to CONCEAL.
Confession through projections.
“If you think J6 was an insurection,…”
There is no crime without a criminal. Period.
Denny the self proclaimed legal scholar, attempted to define “insurrection” and “rebellion” above. No need. They are defined in 18 USC 2383. They are criminal acts commited by CRIMINALS. Until there are CRIMINALS who committed crimes under 18 USC 2383, then there was no insurrection or rebellion. The rest is moot.
Wow, so many flaws. Where to begin….?
“What is most disturbing about all of this is that intelligent people like Lawrence Tribe have bought this garbage.”
Lawrence Tribe didn’t bring this up. He concurs with the theory brought forth by two libertarian scholars, William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulson. Both are members of the Federalist Society and are interpreting it from the perspective of originalism.
“Did President Trump’s “willful, deliberate refusal to accept the outcome of the lawful constitutional election resulting in his defeat for re-election and, instead, his (and others’) attempt to overthrow constitutional election results and install or maintain himself in office, by force, by fraud or by attempted de facto political coup d’etat against the regime of lawful constitutional government, constitute engaging in ‘insurrection or rebellion against the Constitution of the United States’”? “We think the answer is yes.”
The case for disqualification is strong. There is abundant evidence that Trump deliberately set out to overturn the result of the 2020 presidential election result, calling it ‘stolen’ and ‘rigged’; that Trump (with the assistance of others) pursued numerous schemes to effectuate this objective; that among these were efforts to alter the vote counts of several states by force, by fraud or by intended intimidation of state election officials, to pressure or persuade state legislatures and /or courts unlawfully to overturn state election results, to assemble and induce others to submit bogus slates of competing state electors, to persuade or pressure Congress to refuse to count electors’ votes submitted by several states, and finally, to pressure the Vice President to overturn state election results in his role of presiding over the counting of electors’ votes. . . The bottom line is that Donald Trump both “engaged in” “insurrection or rebellion” and gave “aid and comfort” to others engaging in such conduct, within the original meaning of those terms as employed in Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The reference to “original meaning” in this sentence should not be ignored. The authors are talking to an originalist Supreme Court and urging upon them a rule that Donald Trump—who previously had sworn to support the Constitution at his inauguration—had now betrayed his oath of office and is no longer eligible to hold an office under the United States.“
https://www.aei.org/legal-and-constitutional-3/a-summary-of-the-baude-paulsen-paper-on-donald-trumps-ineligibility-to-run-for-president/
“If you think J6 was an insurection, then you will be pefectly fine With Trump locking up Clinton, and Strzok, and Mueller for their part in the Crossfire Huricane Coup.”
Clinton didn’t engage in insurrection or attempted one. She legally challenged the results, upon losing the challenge she conceded. Trump didn’t stop when his legal options ran out. He deliberately sought to disrupt the transfer of power and engaged in fraudulent schemes to change votes by pressuring state election officials to change the results. His claims of fraud have all been shown to be invalid and without merit.
“Citizens are as constitutionally free to march into the capitol and demand that congress refuse to validate ANY election as they are to march into the capitol to demand that congress refuse to confirm Kavanaugh or refuse to provide aide to Israel. Both protests were more violent.”
Wrong.
The first amendment does not guarantee access to government property simply because it is owned and controlled by the government. This is why you CAN be arrested for trespassing as the J6 rioters were ( United States Postal service vs. Greenburgh civic association. For the same reason you cannot protest inside a courtroom or outside a courthouse. Speech can be limited.
“Had the J6 protestors been intent on Insurection – they would have suceeded.”
The only reason they stopped is because Trump finally told them to. Remember Trump did nothing for hours while his supporters did the dirty work for him. His own staff was begging him to call them off, even Mark Meadows. He ignored them because he wanted to disrupt the orderly transition of power. That is why the 14th amendment theory really applies to trump.
Again with the legal theory nonsense.
I am familar with the writing of Baude – he is NOT the nutjob you describe. The lease you could do is know what the people you are claiming to cite actually say.
There is no originalism to this – the first step in originalism is the text.
There was no insurrection.
No one took up arms against the government.
Not only were there no arms – there was no attempt to overthrow the government.
FACTS MATTER.
Conflating an improbable but legitimate outcome you do not like with insurrection is as far from constitutional, originalism, textualism or any form of the actual rule of law as you can get.
Protesters were there in the hopes their voice would dissuade congress from certifying the election .
A power that is explicitly given to congress in the constitution.
This idiotic orwellian newspeak word game nonsense is about as anti-constitutional and anti-originalist as you can possibly get.
18 USC 2383
The rest of your keyboard diarrhea is moot, Svelass
Let me spell it out another way, for the TDS infected numbskulls here. If the 14th Amendment said, “murder” instead of “insurrection or rebellion”, what would disqualification require???
At the very least, a CHARGE of MURDER. Better yet, since the 14th is also the due process amendment, a CONVICTION of MURDER, lest some nincompoop Secretary of State remove the candidate who killed someone in self defense or even manslaughter.
Get a grip people, this argument has ZERO merit. It wouldn’t matter if James Madison himself brought it.
No, it would not require a charge of murder, unless it wrote “the charge of murder.” Why would you add words to the text of the Amendment that aren’t there?
Scalia is rolling in his grave.
“No, it would not require a charge of murder, unless it wrote “the charge of murder.”
Is that an argument? Scalia was an originalist. Do you even know what that means? Why do we have a Supreme Court? Get a grip, dude. You can do better than that.
For the nincomppops. It would require someone to commit murder. Oh, wait, the word commit isn’t in there. Idiot.
Your correct the 14th amendment does not require a charge of insurection. It requires conviction for insurrection.
Why because what it can not possibly means is “insurrection in my opinion”. Especially when the words are used in the Orwellian fashion of the left.
“Did President Trump’s “willful, deliberate refusal to accept the outcome of the lawful constitutional election resulting in his defeat for re-election ”
True or not that is perfectly legal and constitutional.
You do not accept that the collusion delusion was a HOAX – the facts are daming.
You do not accept that Joe Biden is corrupt and possibly compromised – despite the evidence.
These are all evidence of your lack of critical thinking.
They are not however crimes.
It is perfectly legal and constitutional for you to beleive things that are false.
You may even act on those false beleifs – so long as you act lawfully.
“and, instead, his (and others’) attempt to overthrow constitutional election results and install or maintain himself in office, by force, by fraud or by attempted de facto political coup d’etat against the regime of lawful constitutional government, constitute engaging in ‘insurrection or rebellion against the Constitution of the United States’”? “”
None of those things happened.
There is no such thing as constitutional election results. There is no such crime as overthrowing an election.
Challenging an election is legal, and constitutional. Word games change nothing.
Election results are not constitutional or lawful – they are just results.
The election itself can be lawful or constitutional. @020 was inarguably neither.
5 of the 6 swing states violated their state constitutions requirements for secret ballot elections.
The constitution dictates that the rules for elections are determined by congress and state legislatures.
More generally all law – including state election law MUST be written by legislatures.
Separation of powers requires that legislatures make law. Executives execute the law, and courts adjudicate
disputes over the law and constitution. That is true at the federal level, and the US constitution requires it from the states.
State executives do not have the power to make laws – not election laws, not any laws.
The US is not a monarchy – elected or otherwise. We do not vest the power to make law, and to execute the law in the same body.
We do not as an example allow police or prosecutors to make up the law as they please.
That has a name – tyrany.
And it is a violation of the rule of law.
The 2020 election was conducted unconstitutionally and outside the law.
That is without any doubt. The 2020 election was a fraud – even if there was not a single instance of ballot fraud.
An unconstitutional and lawless election is a fraud.
We do not allow the police to make the law up as they go. We do not allow govenors to make the law up as they go.
We do not allow election officials to make the law up as they go.
Making the law and executing it are functions that are deliberately separate in constitutional government.
You are not only wrong – you are blatantly wrong.
“The case for disqualification is strong.”
18 USC 2383
Bring the charge or go home.
So wrong so often.
“The first amendment does not guarantee access to government property simply because it is owned and controlled by the government. ”
Correct. It does however ABSOLUTELY guarantee access to Public Forums and the US capitol is the most important public formum in the US.
This is a stupid argument on your part. The first amendment does not assure you the right to march through area 51.
It absolutely allows you to petition government at the US Capitol.
“This is why you CAN be arrested for trespassing as the J6 rioters were ( United States Postal service vs. Greenburgh civic association. For the same reason you cannot protest inside a courtroom or outside a courthouse. Speech can be limited.”
Nope. The US capitol is NOT a post office. Nor is a post office a public forum.
There are dozens of supreme court cases regarding this. The government MUST ALLOW protests at public forums.
There are all kinds of games that government has tried to play to thwart protests in the past – all have been found unconstitutional.
I doubt you can name a single place in the US that enjoys stronger first amendment protections than the
US Capitol.
This is a patently stupid argument.
Further it should be OBVIOUS that it is stupid.
You can tell that a constraint on a constitutional right isunconstitutional if no matter how inoccuous that constraint may sound that if accepted that constraint would result in either significantly reducing or eliminate the right, or allow restricting that right to some selct group.
Your claim regarding government property is OBVIOUSLY false – because as you are applying it, it would apply to ALL government property.
There is no right to free speech on private property. therefore if you can restrict the first amendment on all public property you can eliminate the first amendment entirely.
BTW have you actually read the case you cited ? It is about whether you can put things into mailboxes.
The 2nd line of the decision explicitly finds that a mailbox is NOT a public forum.
The US capitol IS a public forum you case is completely off base.
You claims regarding events at J6 are anti-factual.
The claim that Trump did nothing for hours is contradicted by the capitol police timeline and numerous other under oath sources.
Further Trump had authorized the deployment of the national guard immediately at the request of the capitol police.
That request never came.
Eventually the assistant Sec Def ordered their deployment using authority conveyed to him by Trump the week before.
While Trump did do several things on J6, he was never obligated to do anything – because he had already preauthorized all the actions that eventually took place.
Again this is well documented.
As with the collusion dellusion – and as with your own constant remarks.
False claims get repeated constantly until many people beleive they are true.
Regardless your alleged facts are lies.
I would further note that as we have subsequently learned there was very little violence in the capitol.
Nearly all the violence was at the West tunnel, were the Capitol Police F’edup by the numbers.
First they tear gassed themselves accidentlaly, and then they accidentally teargassed the crowd.
Prior to this the west tunnel had been peaceful.
Outside of the West tunnel, there was very little violence or conflict between protestors and the Capitol police.
The 20min of altered Video that democrats and the news have been using from the beinging is a subset of 50,000 hours of peaceful video of the capitol protests.
It is pretty trivial to compare and contrast the video of J6 protestors quietly and peacefully and respectfully marching through the capitol rotunda and those of recent Pro-Hamas protestors or that of earlier Kavanaugh protestors.
Why the J6 protestors stopped is entirely irrelevant. All were at the capitol legitimately. They were legitimately engaged in legitimate constitutional protest.
They were not obligated to stop. The fact that incompetence on the part of the capitol police triggered violence in one area does not change the right of the rest to protest.
Both the Capitol police and the protesters were obligated not to initiate violence. Whoever initiated violence whether the CP or protestors is responsible for that violence. But the 99% of protestors who did not engage in violence did nothing wrong – and were free to remain as long as they wished.
Regardless, there was no insurection, no attempt to overthrow the government.
Congress was free to return to chambers anytime they wanted.
There was never a credible threat to congress.
Congress was free to certify the election – or not as it chose. But it was obligated to do so publicly under the eye, even the glare of protestors legitimately demanding that they do not.
You do not seem to grasp that the FACT that protestors want something you oppose does not alter their right to protest.
Some of the actions of some J6 protestors were likely crimes. Though not likely more than a handful.
Alishi Babbet and a few others did actually tresspass – the first amendment does not make the entire capitol building into a public forum.
But the public spaces are. And few left the public spaces. Regardless, Tresspass alone is NEVER sufficient to justify the use of deadly force
Babbet was according to federal law murdered – as was Rose Boylan. The only actual deaths at J6 were of protestors.
And we now have video of one of the CP officers who claims to have been injured that blatantly refutes that claim.
Did Trump attempt to bribe anyone ?
Did Trump threaten anyone with the use of force ?
All other “threats” “intimidation” etc are legitimate exercises of free speech.
You are drowning in Orwellian newspeak.
Remove the adjectives and spin from your remarks and see if the actually hold up – they do not.
In 2015 Biden told the ukraininans to fire Shokin or they would lose $1B in US aide.
That is an actual threat there is a clear quid pro quo, That is bribery, or more accurately blackmail.
Do you have ANY statement by Trump that clearly states that if he does not get what he wants there will be a specific consequence to the person he is asking ?
Even today Trump is OPENLY threatening democrats – that when elected again he will do to them exactly what they are doing to him.
Trump’s “threat” is only a true threat, and illegal threat if and only if the current actions of democrats are illegal and unconstitutional.
When you admit that the conduct of democrats is illegal unconstitutional and criminal – I will happily cede that Trump may not threaten the same conduct. But so long as you continue to claim that what they are doing is legitimate, you have no legs to stand on opposing Trump doing the same.
Svelaz, What EVER have you gotten right ?
Not well reported is another Trial starting in Georgia – one that has a 175 pre-trial opinion.
What is the trial about ? Elections.
Who is on trial ? Trump ? No Raffensberger is the defendant.
What is the trial about – the massive failure of the GA Sec State to deliver election integrity – not in 2020,
But in every election since 2017.
This case will be ahead of or concurrent with the Trump case, and will completely undermine claims regarding the integrity of GA elections that are core to Willis’s case.
I would further note – this case has ripple effects beyond Willis into the Smith case in DC.
If the claim that GA elections were perfect fails, the entire case against Trump fails.
You should not be able to get a conviction against someone for claiming election fraud even when there was none.
You can not get a conviction for claiming election fraud when there is fraud.
What are two of the big focuses of the case against Raffensburger ? The problems with the voting machines, and Raffensbergers failure to follow GA law on signature verification.
Which left wing nut legal theory has ever proven correct ?
Name one ?
So it’s sort of like the Seinfeld TV series where George gets fired from his job for sleeping with the cleaning lady.
Jason Alexander’s character “George Costanza” in a very lawyerly fashion, points out to his boss that there is nothing written in the employee handbook that makes boinking the cleaning lady a firing offense. George claims he did nothing wrong.
The difference is Trump’s employee rulebook explicitly makes supporting sedition and violating the U.S. Constitution a disqualification from government employment.
George had a stronger legal case than Donnie!
@Anon_11:04: You’re absolutely right that the “employee rulebook explicitly makes supporting sedition and violating the U.S. Constitution a disqualification from government employment,” so it’s good thing for the country, including Mr. Trump, that he did neither. Out of the current 65, 482 charges against him I don’t recall hearing about any of them being sedition.
Typical unbelivably idiotic word games from the left.
Sedition has a meaning.
Violating the constitution has a meaning.
The actions of Trump and Trump’s supporters and attorney’s were legal and constitutional.
Election challenges are legal and constitutional – right up to and including legislature appointed slates of electors, and congress refusing to certify and election.
If you are so stupid as to beleive the 2020 election was conducted perfectly and lawfully – then allow that debate.
Do not – as you have been caught doing repeatedly, call the positions of your oponents debunked rightwing conspiracy theories and russian disinformation – only to be caught in lies later.
Present YOUR evidence and review the evidence of those who disagree.
Do so publicly.
Lets bring it all out in the open.
Instead at every turn you FIGHT bitterly against every effort to bring anything to light.
It took 6 years to expose what the FBI knew from Day one – that the Collusion Delusion was a deliberate HOAX by Clinton.
It has taken nearly a decade to bring the corrupt conduct of Joe Biden to light.
In instance after instance it has taken massive effort, a small fortune to bring the truth to light – with Democrats fighting tooth and nail every step of the way.
You should not be surprised that no one beleives you.
You should not be surprised that more and more people assume that what you fight vigorously to hide, is damning to you.
Regardless, it is too late to bring much of the truth of the 2020 election too light. records have been destoryed.
Outside of a few issues real inquiry is no longer possible.
But on those issues where inquiry is possible -t the results are damning for the left.
This is a very strange argument.
What has a fictitious character in a sitcome and facts and arguments constructed for the purpose of a TV show go to do with reality ?
George has ZERO legal case. Boinking the cleaning lady is not illegal.
Conversely there is no right to a job.
President John Adams with misgivings signed a law against sedition. it was one of the most repugnant laws in US history and was never enforced, withdrawn shortly after by Jefferson and was blatantly unconstitutional.
It is laughable hearing “unconstitutional” from those on the left – have you read the constitution ? Do you have a clue what it actually says ?
What part of the constitution did Trump violate ?
Congress has the last word on federal elections. Trump and J6 protestors exercised their 1st amendment – i.e. CONSTITUTIONAL right to speak, to assemble to petition government to get congress to excercise that right.
That is not sedition or insurection, any more than left wing nuts invading the capitol to coerce senators to refuse to confirm Kavanaugh or more recently pro-hamas protestors seeking to thwart congress from funding Israel.
In this country people are free to speak their mind.
They are free to do so even when you do not like what they say.
They are free to assemble to do so.
They are free to petition government.