Russian Orthodox Christians Offended By Apple Logo

-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger

While the Duma, the Russian Parliament, is considering laws to “to defend citizens’ religious feelings and national and spiritual values from blasphemy and insult,” Russian Orthodox Christians claim that the Apple logo is anti-Christian and insults their beliefs.

The bitten apple is symbolic of the story of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, appropriate for a company dealing with the dissemination of information. To Christians, the bitten apple symbolizes original sin and temptation by Satan.

This could be problematic for sales of Apple products in Russia.

The first Apple logo showed Issac Newton sitting under an apple tree with the words “a mind forever voyaging through strange seas of thought — alone,” from English poet William Wordsworth. The rainbow themed apple was selected and used from 1976-1998. The Glass-themed version has been used since 2003.

Apple also had trademark issues with The Beatles and their Apple Corps. Those issues were finally settled in 2007.

Crazy beliefs are not exclusive to religion and are of little consequence until they have the authority of the state behind them. Vladimir Putin seems hell-bent on helping Russian Orthodox Christians turn Russia into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

H/T: Austin Cline, Ophelia Benson, Forbes, Xbit Labs, Christian Post, The Register.

86 thoughts on “Russian Orthodox Christians Offended By Apple Logo

  1. I hate to think of what would happen if somebody created a logo of a fat guy with a beard, wearing a turban, eating an apple, carrying a snake in one hand and a hammer in the other.

  2. I see what the Russian Orthodox Christians are seeing. They need to stop letting that symbol bother them. Steve Jobs innocently chose those that symbol. We are fallen into sin having a body that dies. .Lets not show it with a bad spirit so we don’t perish with what man made on the last day.

  3. Insanity is apparently not limited to fanatics in the Middle East and the US. Russia is marching back in time to the day of the Divine Right of Putin! Offended by the Apple logo, really.

  4. The entire theme of the book “The Closing of the Western Mind” is based on the fact that Christianity turned away from the Greek enthusiasm for exploration of every world that they (the Greeks) could think of. For early Christians, there was only one book worth reading and all other books were not only unworthy, but dangerous. Hence the Dark Ages. Remember also that, historically, Russia, like Islam, never experienced a Renaissance or a Reformation. Hence, Dark Ages thinking still pervades Russian thought.

  5. Alan Burdick,

    With all due respect, let me pull an ElaineM on you.

    “Do you have any citations, etc which support your contention?”

    “Hence, Dark Ages thinking still pervades Russian thought.” —Burdick

  6. Modern Russia was first with socialist thinking—-correct?
    USSR expelled Christianity from its privileged position.
    Putin like Constantine sees the need for support, and
    concedes as Constantine did the power to repress other religions, including secularism to the pile of destroyed beliefs, which oppose Constantine/Putin’s power.

    Christianity was not much more than a marginal drop of water in the Mediterranian of religions, beliefs etc of its time. Where each wanderer was a challenge in collecting believers and tithes (see gnostics), the support obtained for “rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” was a winner, which gave them dominance.

    But it was a battle which lasted for over one thousand years. A winning strategy which is still valid today, for both sides.

    NB Republicans and fundamental christians. Soon a state religion, if they have their way.

  7. Speaking of beliefs and believers let me speak of freedom.

    How the nations nor the peoples of the world have no illusions about our governments foreign policy deeds,
    which clearly drip of their or their neighbors’ blood.

    But they do like what they see of the chaos, dynamism, and freedom of speech, and to pursue your own betterment in spite of the government. This the core of American culture of equal value in terms of influence as the pop culture of the decades which we also have exported.

  8. What offends me is the Russian hypocrisy. “The Gray Cardinal” (Putin’s nickname) has demonstrated a new level of totalitarianism by violating his own constitution and allowing the illegal mob-like persecution of any Protestant religion that has ANYTHING to say about the Russian Orthodox Church (or ostensibly anything Catholic-esque in Russia) that is not in a flattering light. Propaganda is preferred over the truth in his world.

    In recent history outside NGO’s that monitor religious persecution worldwide have noticed that in certain Russian states that a particular American-based quasi-Protestant religion has been treated unfairly and very roughly as it concerns their evangelical work, meeting places, and literature. The American HQ has tried to petition Mr. Putin for intervention as the Russian Constitution (which he claims he endorses) allows for such anti-Catholic rhetoric by OTHER non-Catholic religions.

    And this Apple Logo thing is complete and utter claptrap. Why is that? Moses, the divinely inspired author of Genesis, NEVER once mentioned the type of fruit Eve selected to eat in direct opposition (aka disobedience) to God’s directive to avoid that particular tree. It stands to reason that it could NOT have been an apple based on his context and the other geographic details in the account.

    Arguably the apple “malus pumila var mitris” found it’s roots in South West Asia just south of the Caspian Sea are in eastern Turkey. That pretty much means in the purported Garden of Eden area. If this particular fruit was so prevalent and abundant in the Garden why would anyone consider it “special” or “attractive to the eye”? Therefore in the account Eve would have not felt it was so special to select as it was common and already known to be “good for eating”.

    Also this fruit is not so overly abundant in antioxidants to allow the “fallen one serpent ventriloquist” to suggest it contained properties to “open your eyes” (i.e. have greater knowledge of things not explained yet). That is why God labelled it the Tree of Knowledge. (IMO that is).

    So if we are seeking some fruit that has all of these potential virtues I think we would need to look for something that is loaded in antioxidants to the point of toxicity (to normal imperfect humans), has coloration that attracts the eye (i.e. golden or yellowish-brown color), is small enough to gather in bunches to share with others, comes from one of the oldest trees in the world or a <i.living fossil, a very unique tree, that really only has ONE species,

    Can you think of a tree that fits that bill? A tree whose fruit is highly pungent and visually appealing when ripe attracting attention to it? What tree has enough flavinoids and terpenoids not only in it’s beautiful leaves but in t’s seeds (the fruit)? All of this divinely “designed” to be the eye-opening vehicle for the first couple WHEN it was deemed “obedient” to ingest, NOT before hand. Moses explained that there was another tree whose properties were even more mysterious and the reason why the 1st couple had to be expelled so that they wouldn’t find it. It has been the ancient occult mantra (in many ancient cultures) for many millennium for the search of it.

    I think if Empire Constantine (the 4th century REAL originator of the RCC) didn’t concern himself with integrating pagan symbols into early Christianity so that his new religion called “Universal” (from Greek: Katholikos) could win over more converts (sans compliance), the “apple” would have never wound up a candidate for the nebulous “fruit” Moses never identified.

    IMO Apple Corporation’s problem is more of a Russian Organized Crime issue more than a religious issue. They just need to know who to bribe to get a better foothold there. Case in point the American Blue Jean phenomena IMO wasn’t just a big hit there for the reasons you THINK you know.

  9. Let me be the first to tell you. Steve Jobs created that apple with the bite out of it. It has significance in the last year of his life. He worked and thought and contrived and finally figured out how to take a large sum of money with him when he croaked. As the Apple shares went up in the past year he got a large amount shipped to him by the new internet device called “Dead Man’s Bite”. It will cost each share holder a small bite out of their own Apple. So tell those Russians not to own any shares because they will be giving to a charity in heaven. Inquiring minds want to know.

  10. “Modern Russia was first with socialist thinking—-correct?”

    Incorrect. Native Americans in precolonial periods appeared to have a “socialist” style of governance many centuries before Marxism. Therefore SOCIALISM in and of itself is not a pejorative term before US Senator McCarthy (et al) got a hold if it. It’s the TOTALITARIANISM part that is so bad.

    You do realize that we have a least one openly Socialist Congressman in US politics don’t you? Bernie Sanders (I-Vt). And despite the Tea Party dullards Mr. Obama has NEVER embraced Socialism. Socialized medicine is NOT socialism – in case you were wondering. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are SOCIALIZED American programs in affect and working for several decades.

    It would be nice if some people (not necessarily you) would bother to not be so much shallow-thinkers* and do more due diligence in their research of a subject matter. Mr. Obama is basically a good man. I think the REAL issue the Tea Party has with him is that he doesn’t look like them so much (i.e. skin color?).

    *See Dr. Scott Edilman’s study on “Low-Effort Thought Promotes Political Conservatism” at: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/16/0146167212439213.abstract?rss=1

  11. Your story about the true origins of Apple Corp’s logo is a bit specious at best. Of course there are many scriptures in the bible that suggest that money has no place in heaven; but that should go without saying – right?

    OK the true origins of the logo allegedly has to do with a homosexual British man who helped US win WW2 with his enigmatic decryption of the NAZI enigma machine. He did it with his machine called a “BOMB” – not a real bomb of course. It was done at Bletchley Park in UK. He used the arguably FIRST electronic computer in the world the Colossus. We use his test on A.I. robots today to test for how close to human thinking a AI machine has.

    Allegedly, he was ostracized (and jailed) for his homosexuality and his forced estrogen injections so much that on June 7, 1954 he allegedly injected potassium-cyanide into an apple and then committed suicide by taking a bite out of it. Steve Jobs was so moved by that he adopted that Apple Logo with the bite out of it in memory of Alan Turing.

    Source: Holden Frith (The Sunday Times)

  12. Rafflaw, by the time Eve ate that apple, Adam had NAMED all the animals. OK? So before either of those two had any “knowledge” Adam was doing the most important job in the world at the time. CEO of every creature’s name. Tsk Tsk!

  13. Son of B. or whatever,

    That waa offered some bait for the besserwissers here—and you popped up and took it.
    I don’t parade with my knowledge for I have none to speak of. But for all yours I see nothing of value in
    all you have written. No snark intended, only testing your balance and perception.

    Welcome aboard. I have heard words of praise of you… You are adept in giving names to objects, it is said.

    I was about to pass on word of your coming but it won’t be necessary now. Word spreads rapidly here.

  14. Dredd,
    It appears that Todd Akin was actually talking about a REAL scientific reality based on some very esoteric scenarios in human sexual behavior and gynecology. Unfortunately Todd is an arguably an idiot and can’t express the concept in actual scientific terms and he is on a Congressional Scientific Committee? The words he used were overly simplistic and reflective of his lack of intellectual acumen.

    If any one needs me to explain I’ll try and find the gynecological data to support this but I don’t want to do the due diligence if no one really cares to know more about what Akin was talking about. I’m not a Republican either…

  15. @idealist707 – The routine denizens here know me very well and know I am a casual visitor who drops in from time to time to drop my arguably well-thought-out opinions on this-and-that. I think the groups, that seems like very enlightened folks, respect my opinions (but don’t always agree) and show me the kindness of reciprocal respect and avoid any semblance of hubris.

    Of course, as always, I’m not privy to previous arguments and debates I chime in on. I am not aware of who or what you are talking about but I do come off as a besserwiser at times (i.e. know-it-all?). Can’t help it as it is an occupational habit I guess. Some here know what that means. Google: Operational Research Analyst.

    This particular subject interests me as I know there is an underlying story that most do not see easily. You have to understand Vladimir Putin’s background and “previous” affiliations to understand what’s happening to Apple’s problems in Russian marketing. It’s not that the Slavic people’s are not 21st century minded. Some of our most dangerous cyber-warriors (hackers) come from Bulgaria and other CSS states. China thinks they are the bad-azzes of cyber-terrorism but they are no challenge for the Bulgarians IMO. We Americans are also no challenge for them either (unless we subcontract them).

    So do Russians have iPhones and iPads? Maybe a lot do, IMO it depends who they know in the black market I think. I was serious about “bribes” as IMO it is the SOP in Moscow to get anything done in Russia. And IMO most of these guys used to work for Putin and his old committee for state security. His religious beliefs are not secret either. IMO he has no problem with arresting and imprisoning Russian billionaires who don’t want to play his quasi-Capitalist/Communist games (I know that’s an oxymoron).

    Exactly what part of my cyber-musings do you disagree with? Just curious…

  16. One of the several plaintiffs in Roe v. Wade was dubbed Jane Doe. In the litigation Jane said that she had been raped and was pregnant from it. It was a fat lie. This is the origin of the species, sorry, origin of the terms “legitimate rape”. This was reported by Carl Rowan many years ago.

  17. SoTB,
    Yup. He is one of the teabaggers. He is like one of those teabags where the string comes off and you have to fish the teabag out of your hot tea, only to have the teabag come apart and dump its contents into your tea.

    As for the police hauling him off, where are the Taser and rubber bullet guys when you really need them?

  18. Fredrick Clarkson reports that Akin managed to hide his arrest record by using his first name, William, when he was booked. His full name is William Todd Akin. The ploy worked until now.

  19. Todd Akin’s use of the word “legitimate” in the term “legitimate rape” was a faux pas. I’m sure he did not mean “legitimate” which means: “conforming to the law or to rules.” This shows his lack of education. He only has degrees in foreign languages, theology, and management engineering. English and human biology must have been his weak subjects.

    He probably meant to say or probably SHOULD have said: “A woman who is raped by an unknown non-standard-human-male-routine-sexual-partner, M-A-Y not achieve fertilization as her healthy uterus may be an extremely toxic environment to the stranger’s deposited spermatozoa due to her white blood cells, enzymes and prostaglandins secreted to attack it as foreign bodies. Her body’s immune system is normally acclimated to her routine sex partner’s spermatozoa (and even then only a few or just one out of 10,000 spermatozoa survives the event). However, there are always exceptions to the rule.”

    IMO this would mean that fertile women, capable of fertilization and getting pregnant, who are also celibate for whatever reason, are in a high risk group in this scenario. Those who doubt what I said please call your OB/GYN tomorrow and verify my assertions.

  20. @OS – Tea baggers hate that reference as they seem to think that most of us Tea Party dissenters have our minds in the gutter. When I was confronted with this argument recently I had to go HUH? I looked it up and went “ewww!” I really didn’t know this before. UUCK!

    Yes I hate that poor tea bag manufacturing scenario too. I hate when the string breaks off and the bag stubbornely stays at the bottom of the cup and you have to play Jai alai treating the cup like a xistera to fling it out!

  21. @OS – Instead of coffee tomorrow morning try some Earl Grey with honey and lemon juice. A delightful stimulant with flavor. And at bedtime try some Chamomile with honey. Try and stay away from sugar unless it’s Sucralose based like Splenda.

  22. @Joan Eisenstodt – I skimmed your article and can see your point about rare-earth mining. But I could not see which element(s) they were referring to that are dangerous to off-shore outsourced miners.

    However, you should have the same feelings toward your cherished cell phone and PC/MAC. Did you know there are slave-labor mining camps in DRC (Congo) and other places that mine “coltan” for worldwide cell phone and computer manufacturers INCLUDING Apple Corp?

    Coltan is columbite-tantalite: a valuable black mineral combining niobite and tantalite; used in cell phones and computer chips like the chips you are usig to read this right now. No worries. The 21st century is the “guilt-free” generation (LOL).

    And of course according to the devil, he doesn’t really exist. Greatest trick ever huh?! (LOL)

  23. @Malisha – “Rafflaw, by the time Eve ate that apple, Adam had NAMED all the animals. OK? So before either of those two had any “knowledge” Adam was doing the most important job in the world at the time. CEO of every creature’s name. Tsk Tsk!”

    Actually Moses indicated that Eve was not created until Adam named all the animals inside the Garden, at least all he could see (obviously there were others outside the garden he never saw – i.e. saber-tooth tiger, woolly mammoth, platypus, etc.) And yes Adam shares in Eve’s gross disobedience but not for the same reasons she used. He just didn’t think God would replace her and not forgive her so when she brought the fruit to him to eat and probably said “Look honey what I found! Have some! The snake said it’s eye-opening!” you can see his heart breaking and going (in his mind) “Oh crap! What has she done? Snake? What snake? Which snakes can talk? Did I miss that one?” oh well and the rest is history…

  24. sonofthunderboanerges:

    Your story about the true origins of Apple Corp’s logo is a bit specious at best.

    Steve Jobs was so moved by that he adopted that Apple Logo with the bite out of it in memory of Alan Turing.

    Logos:

    This logo is often erroneously referred to as a tribute to Alan Turing, with the bite mark a reference to his method of suicide. Both Janoff and Apple deny any homage to Turing in the design of the logo.

  25. @Nal – OK I just read the 2009 Interview with Janoff and Creative Bits at Ivan Raszl blog at http://creativebits.org/interview/interview_rob_janoff_designer_apple_logo

    Janoff clearly says he was very familiar with story of Alan Turing and his suicide. You are right he said it did NOT influence his design of the logo. He said that he choose the apple due to its commonality and various colors. The bite referenced the fact that it wasn’t a small cherry but a larger apple – a reference to scale.

    He also said it had NOTHING to do with Adam & Eve.

    So Russia! Go buy Apple products now! (LOL)

  26. The Russians, in actuality a 19th century culture, were actually in better shape under Communism…. Now they have to deal with their forking church, now revived again. How very sad………….

  27. Zarathustra: “Christians, around the World… STFU!!!!”

    If the religitards actually believe there is a “god” and that the “afterlife” is so much better than this life, why haven’t they killed themselves and gone there to meet “god”? They’re cowards, hiding behind the lie of “suicide is a sin!”

  28. What ever happened to that Hammer & Cicle? Or however one spuils cycle or sycle Cant those Ruskies simply slice those apples in half and crush them with the hammer, forever ridding themselves of the technology which those Ruskies abhor? And if these xtians are Orthodox then they must know that God created Dog on the 8th Day to watch over them and all that nonesense about the Apple and Eve and Adam and no sex pregnancies and legitimate rape are a lot of stuff made up by pedophile priests in the Dark Ages who dont know nuthin about birthin babies Miz Scarlet. So, If I was an Apple Computer executive I would take the bite out of the apple east of the Berlin Wall or call it quits I would consider a Cross on the side of every computer and some special keys on the keyboard for these East of Jesus folks. Putin rhynmes with shootin so watch out. And if you did not see this comin when the former head of the KGB took over Russia then you need a see n eye dog.

  29. This topic brings up some issues which I need to learn about. I am just visiting here for a short while and have a task of learning about how humanoids procreate. I have been scanning the television and the websites for information. Last night I watched Tv and saw Fox News, Gone With The Wind, and various commericals as you call them. Then this morning lots of folks in large groups with a guy yakking at them with a Cross behind him. The Bite of he Apple is perplexing. The tv scene repeated over and over with a product called Viagra where the couple seems to have an interest in precreating but then they are in separate bathtubs in the backyard during the mating part. The newspaper claims to have all the news fit to print but is full of ads fro that same bathtub in the backyard procreation drug. Dont know nuthin bout birthin babies floored me because I thought I was going to see something relevant. Legitimate rape and legiticacy are two issues that seem to be interwined with politics and not sex and procreation. So, could someone explain some of these things. I have a flight back to Remulak this afternoon. Does a bite out of the apple get one into the bathtub in the backyard and thence result in birthin babies is one rather pertinent question.

  30. SoTB,

    I was just a bit jealous, of you coming to put me in my place and strewing data like a besserwisser.

    First, I don’t and usually don’t give a rat’s a55 about the exact date of this that and another. So when socialism was first put in use is immaterial to the point I was trying to make with my words. OK?

    And if we want to be picky about the when of socialism, it was in all likelihood in use in the pre-homo habilis stage of our evolution. And I am sure you understand the context that I am referring to. It is mirrored today in the bushman society, what little is left of it.

    The reference to occupational characteristics make me laugh. I used it once to characterize a regular here and got a hell of a “what is that”? battle out of her.
    Finally somebody said to her to stop being obtuse, after I had given 10(?) examples from other occupations.

    Again you use usual arguments to win without touching on the meat or even finding out what the meat is.
    —-Priority in time. Been here long time. Usual.
    —-People know me and respect me (ie why don’t you, you better do it–hint hint, threat threat)
    —-I have a high ranking knowledge and am better than you and a rare bird who has exotic knowledge.
    —-I am an expert on xyz (CCCP, Russia, FRR, etc) and nobody knows much about that compared to me.
    —-etc,etc,etc.

    I do respect you, as I do all the besserwissers I know. And as for my showing hubris towards you, that you will have to explain.

    Let’s take a few items.

    I was casually knowledgeable in OR since my early career, and practiced what was expected to become a career path: ie system engineering. It got lost in the shuffle somewhere, but OR survives. So do tell me more, how is it today with OR.

    The corruption was refined during CCCP and has not disappeared because they changed the names of the bureaucracy and country. It is still a failed state, held together by terrorism and duct tape. I know a few details from biographies, but no structural knowledge, and I don’t contract Bulgarian data people.

    I believe your mistake was in correcting me, quite OK. But you continued in using “you” and piling more assumed lack of knowledge on me, unmerited by anything I said. To be honest I do the same type of mistake myself. You mention the Amerindians and I return with homo habilis. Are we equally nerdy? I also do Harrapans, and other esoterica which I find relevant today.

    For example, I don’t like running with the herd. It is debasing and in some occsions a dangerous practice. I prefer to take a step back (or up as you prefer) and take an overview.

    I don’t like RWAs, or the thinking that leads to American exceptionalism, and the blindness that does not see what a crap heap our leaders have and continue to build with our quiescent help.

    Hope you are a rabble rouser as I am. Need more here among these button-upped folks.

    Any more questions? Feel free.

    BTW do you cooperate with the FSS? And do you work for the company? You won’t answer those questions, nor the one about NSA. We’d all feel queasy if we knew.

    With all due respect.

  31. I am at the airport awaiting a plane back to Remulak. The Fox TV is blaring here and the Viagra commercial was on and I noticed at the end when the couple are in the two bathtubs that they touched hands across the divide. Is that the defining moment of conception? Someone please respond because if I get back to Remulak without an answer they will bite a chunk out of my apple.

  32. Someone, anyone…. put a ”Pineapple” a euphemism for hand-grenade, on the backs of Apple devices sold in Russia…. and then pull the pins……

  33. When the Russians see the child like heart of Steve Jobs the fixation of the symbol will stop bothering them. On a side note Adam, and Ever had a light covering before they fell. That light covering will be given back to the redeemed.
    Revelation 7:9-17

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    The serpent at one time did did not to crawl on the ground. That means at one time the serpent had wings.

  34. Beldar here, still at the airport wi8ting for a train: So, perhaps does the conception happen when the couple exchange bath tubs? This Akin guy threw me a loop, what is “legitimate” conception? We dont have sex back on Remulak so all of this is quite confusing. Someone here at the airport (with Fox News blaring) said that the apple drops out of the tree over the wife’s bathtub and that is the “socratic method”. Please advise.

  35. P Smith Suicide is a lack of faith. it is a giving up. The Lucifer commuted suidid rebelling against God. Satan wanted Jesus to commit suicide jumping down from a high place. . There is no short cut to Gods kingdom to be in his presence. Heave in spirit needs to be in whoever before they are to be able to survive to be in Gods light. To war is suicide a form of sacrifice. War is evil suicide is evil too. Can yoiu see that?

  36. I think that the Leningrad Cowboys started in Finland and were asked to export their product permanenttly to Leningrad.

    But have no explanation for the Red Army choir. Assume it all is overdubbed and a blue background production, ie only a large muppet standing
    in the middle is lacking as proof of legit filming.

    Asch, never mind. Great surprise. How do people find these things?

    Did you notice at the end how well the chorus passed in with their familiar “Volga Boat song” Probably a planned parody. Say nothing bad about Russian humor.

  37. Beldar here: Someone here at the airport showed me a video on their little laptop that shows the sex act between man and woman humanoids. There was no bathtubs. So, I know now how you procreate and that it has nothing to do with bites from an apple or two bathtubs in the back yard after the viagra pill. The guy explained that there is another pill, not Viagra, that prevents pregnancy after the sex act. He says that you have to wait until the morning after. So, when I get back to Remulak I have a full report ready.

  38. sonofthunderboanerges The Catholic Church as teachings, and prsctises are not that Jesus would not be happy with. They resemble the religions that were against him The symtom of an idol worshiper is to do battle when the idol is seen as being threatened. That is why people that bowed to the golden calf, and other idols were prone to out bursts of violence. You are right. The type of fruit was not mentioned. Further more it was not the fruit for God never made any bad fruit. It was the fact that Adam, and Eve were at ease enough to even eat it when the devil himself was near them. People are at ease to jail. war etc doing what Jesus would not do. There is no virtue in the fallen angel Lucifer. The toxic one is Satan, not what was eaten.

  39. #505,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Just what we needed with Belday running loose. He got out of his electromagnetic cage of 0.05 namometers a week ago and we had lost track of him. Your assistance will be gratified at the appropriate galactic bank.

  40. @Jonathan Hughes – OK I’m still trying to understand your salient point about the Catholic Church. However, my reference to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. arguably The Maiden’s Hair tree or Ginkgo Biloba tree) was not to say it was BAD for humans. I truly believe YHWH (God) intended for them to ingest it on a daily basis BUT only on HIS timetable not theirs. The “other” tree (Tree of Life) obviously had the same future but has been sequestered from man unto a future time period.

    Ever wonder how Satan got to be so close to the Garden to be able to manipulate a snake like Charlie McCarthy (old school reference)? I guess it’s the same reason why most people think his real name is Lucifer. The Dirge to the King of Tyre (found at Ezekiel 28) was a metaphor about Satan’s pre-evil existence as a guardian or covering cherub (angel) over the Garden. Therefore, he was assigned to be the invisible caretaker and guardian of this large plot of land in the upper Mesopotamian valley surrounded by mountains.

    Suffice it to say Satan was Shumash of the Epic of Gilgamesh and Azazel of the Book of Enoch. He was there as he was sent there. His jealousy of YHWH’s sovereignty (right to rule man) got the best of him and the rest is history (as they say).

    However, one can not blame him for everything. Cain’s action against his brother Abel (i.e. murder) was a VOLUNTARY act just like his parents decision to blaspheme YHWH and be disobedient on a very small subject matter (i.e. the cookie jar metaphor?)..

    @idealist707 – Yes we besserwisers are a real pickle aren’t we? We do love our unsolicited verbosity (case in point above – LOL). OK to answer your questions you are going to have to intrigue me or challenge me more as the crew here is aware of my ADD and I get bored easily (LOL)

    Your “assumptions” remind me of the guy that invented the game “Jump to Conclusions” in the movie Office Space (1999). I’m not really a confrontational type but I do like the intellectual debate at times.

    No I have never worked for the alphabet soup for ANY nation. However, corporate America likes to have their own version of the same to keep abreast of the what’s going on in the world. That’s where I come in as an ORA but it’s not full-time. It is contract work. And my peers and management hierarchy all seem to have resumes peppered with alphabet soup agencies and other psychopath-esque occupations. I get reminded of this every time someone reads over my shoulder (like right now – get the &^%& away from my desk! LOL) I seem to have this affinity with whistleblowers seeking to unburden their guilty conscious.

    It’s like curse versus a gift. Sometimes you just don’t want to know stuff but they find out your an excellent listener and they just can’t stop talking! If they could bottle this for HUMINT then EIT would not be necessary any more. Right? :-)

  41. @Beldar (and others) – You’re really going to enjoy this one. Here’e the Twilight Zone episode “Will The Real Martian Please Stand Up?” (1961). Watch all three parts and watch Jack Elam (i.e. Beldar? The nut at the counter eating pie) go on and on about being an alien from another planet. Then watch the ending for a real unexpected outcome. Well made video for 1961. (wink wink)

  42. @Idealist707 – “BTW do you cooperate with the FSS? ”

    What’s that? Did you mean FSB (Formerly FSK and KGB)? Cyrillic to English translations of acronyms are tricky. Like CCCP was supposed to mean USSR. Go figure!

    No I do not cooperate with them. I was told by a “lowly placed” individual “somewhere” that my cyber-rantings are viewed by them (and others here in USA) and I am considered a “persona non grata” over there and never to set foot in Moscow. I assured him that I have no intentions of ever visiting Putin’s strange topsy-turvey world. I feel bad that he has not come clean about a certain US Congressman visitor “still” there after decades… You see that’s the type of unsolicited verbosity they (et al) don’t like about me. I share information too much.

    The new tactic is to call what I (et al) do by the pseudo-pejorative term: conspiracy theory. :-)

  43. sonofthunderboanergesIty it is not the blankety, blank, blank tree.it was who was residing at the tree. Satan is Lucifer. Satan is a deceiver. He can look like God not being God. That is how he will deceve people when he shows himself physically before our eyes.. He is deceiving people like the Muslims, people in the military, and legal system to think they are doing a good thing doing what jesus would never do oppress people. The sin of Sodom,and Gomorrah. Ezekiel 29 is not a metaphor. What is spoken is a describing the fallen angel Lucifer used on the prince of Tyrus.

    Lucifer a care taker? You have got to be kidding me? Satan does not want to care for anything. Satan is in this body turning Gods gifts into crap. That is because that is what he thinks of God. Care taker? That’s a laugh.

    The Fallen Lucifer was in the garden on earth because he rebelled against God . Because people chose to be a servant of the devil have him in their body doing what I just said. Cain did not resit the devil. Able resisted the devil.It is that simple. Satan is the blasphemer. Satan does not forgive, Satan constantly grieves the holy spirit away from him wanting to do bad calling it good.
    An excellent listener is good having a good spirit. Don’t have that, and the person will want to war no being like the one who made all things.

  44. SoTB,

    Nice to chat with you again. Seriously, it was getting a bit routine here, except for the recent appearance of Dr Harris, PhD—I hope you saw his writings.

    I’ll quote and comment. And as usual I’ll be more verbose than you as 44 years immersed in Swedish impairs my facitlity in English, and even my original capability was inclined to “the more words the better”.
    =======
    “Yes we besserwisers are a real pickle aren’t we? We do love our unsolicited verbosity (case in point above – LOL). ”
    =========

    I am often accúsed for the same, but perhaps they tire over time or I have succeeded in tightening up my style or providing more meat for thought—-who knows.
    Besserwisser was my primary goal in life as at a very early age I had to justifiy my presence with something, and it became besserwissery.
    If you are familiar with TA, which spontaneously re-entered my world recently, I was assuming a layer higher than those that I was talking to—-not popular.
    ============
    “OK to answer your questions you are going to have to intrigue me or challenge me more as the crew here is aware of my ADD and I get bored easily (LOL)”
    ===========
    OK, let’s test and see. BTW, I thought that my analysis of your put-down and big dog tactics should have waked more interest. No ad hominems, just pegging your tiresome tactics of dominating the scene.

    I have no DSM description. Probably because I am unique. I was initially classified in school as disruptive, but an exam at 11 years gave no further elucidation. I’ll go into that sometime if you are interested, suffice to say that being ostracised since 3 years of age gives a unique position to view the world and does not invite to social development. AS FOR YOURSELF, Wiki say you belong to the lethargic type, which is also a characteristic of mine. Are you lethargic. It was unclear if that was also a mental lethargy or only physical. ?????
    =============

    “Your “assumptions”. Now I’ll pull a technique which I have given the name of “pulling An ElaineM” as she uses it well and often in debates. What assumptions? Can you exemplify with several.

    As for the game of “remember that TV program, film etc. I cna’t play that one having been here for 44 years and none of us here to my knowdledge can follow a cable channel here, only locally sponsored re-runs of which many find fascinating but not I. Such good ones as Bill Cosby and West Wing caught my fancy.
    =============

    “I’m not really a confrontational type but I do like the intellectual debate at times.”

    I have always been easily affronted and confrontational, chiefly for reasons of fear, better to attack and know where you stand vv “them” than to be attacked from behind, which seemed inevitable.
    Mostly conquered during the last year, but was “willing” to make an exception in your case. ;-)
    ==================

    “No I have never….—…guilty conscious (sic).
    Not correcting your spelling just assuring that I read right. It could in fact stand conscious and make good sense also.
    Reminds me of a story named “Ownz0red”, by Cory Doctorow. Know it? Same types of milieue and reflections. Would love to read your story if published.
    ==================

    “If they could bottle this for HUMINT then EIT would not be necessary any more. Right?

    61 sonofthunderboanerges
    1, November 5, 2012 at 9:44 am
    @Beldar (and others) – You’re really going to enjoy this one. Here’e the Twilight Zone episode “Will The Real Martian Please Stand Up?” (1961). Watch all three parts and watch Jack Elam (i.e. Beldar? The nut at the counter eating pie) go on and on about being an alien from another planet. Then watch the ending for a real unexpected outcome. Well made video for 1961. (wink wink)

    62 sonofthunderboanerges
    1, November 5, 2012 at 10:20 am
    @Idealist707 – “BTW do you cooperate with the FSS? ”

    What’s that? Did you mean FSB (Formerly FSK and KGB)? Cyrillic to English translations of acronyms are tricky. Like CCCP was supposed to mean USSR. Go figure!

    No I do not cooperate with them. I was told by a “lowly placed” individual “somewhere” that my cyber-rantings are viewed by them (and others here in USA) and I am considered a “persona non grata” over there and never to set foot in Moscow. I assured him that I have no intentions of ever visiting Putin’s strange topsy-turvey world. I feel bad that he has not come clean about a certain US Congressman visitor “still” there after decades… You see that’s the type of unsolicited verbosity they (et al) don’t like about me. I share information too much.

    The new tactic is to call what I (et al) do by the pseudo-pejorative term: conspiracy theory.

    Leave a Reply Cancel reply
    Enter your comment here…
    SoTB,

    Nice to chat with you again. Seriously, it was getting a bit routine here, except for the recent appearance of Dr Harris, PhD—I hope you saw his writings.

    I’ll quote and comment. And as usual I’ll be more verbose than you as 44 years immersed in Swedish impairs my facitlity in English, and even my original capability was inclined to “the more words the better”.
    =======
    “Yes we besserwisers are a real pickle aren’t we? We do love our unsolicited verbosity (case in point above – LOL). ”
    =========

    I am often accúsed for the same, but perhaps they tire over time or I have succeeded in tightening up my style or providing more meat for thought—-who knows.
    Besserwisser was my primary goal in life as at a very early age I had to justifiy my presence with something, and it became besserwissery.
    If you are familiar with TA, which spontaneously re-entered my world recently, I was assuming a layer higher than those that I was talking to—-not popular.
    ============
    “OK to answer your questions you are going to have to intrigue me or challenge me more as the crew here is aware of my ADD and I get bored easily (LOL)”
    ===========
    OK, let’s test and see. BTW, I thought that my analysis of your put-down and big dog tactics should have waked more interest. No ad hominems, just pegging your tiresome tactics of dominating the scene.

    I have no DSM description. Probably because I am unique. I was initially classified in school as disruptive, but an exam at 11 years gave no further elucidation. I’ll go into that sometime if you are interested, suffice to say that being ostracised since 3 years of age gives a unique position to view the world and does not invite to social development. AS FOR YOURSELF, Wiki say you belong to the lethargic type, which is also a characteristic of mine. Are you lethargic. It was unclear if that was also a mental lethargy or only physical. ?????
    =============

    “Your “assumptions”. Now I’ll pull a technique which I have given the name of “pulling An ElaineM” as she uses it well and often in debates. What assumptions? Can you exemplify with several.

    As for the game of “remember that TV program, film etc. I cna’t play that one having been here for 44 years and none of us here to my knowdledge can follow a cable channel here, only locally sponsored re-runs of which many find fascinating but not I. Such good ones as Bill Cosby and West Wing caught my fancy.
    =============

    “I’m not really a confrontational type but I do like the intellectual debate at times.”

    I have always been easily affronted and confrontational, chiefly for reasons of fear, better to attack and know where you stand vv “them” than to be attacked from behind, which seemed inevitable.
    Mostly conquered during the last year, but was “willing” to make an exception in your case. ;-)
    ==================

    “No I have never….—…guilty conscious (sic).
    Not correcting your spelling just assuring that I read right. It could in fact stand conscious and make good sense also.
    Reminds me of a story named “Ownz0red”, by Cory Doctorow. Know it? Same types of milieue and reflections. Would love to read your story if published.
    ==================

    SoTB,

    Nice to chat with you again. Seriously, it was getting a bit routine here, except for the recent appearance of Dr Harris, PhD—I hope you saw his writings.

    I’ll quote and comment. And as usual I’ll be more verbose than you as 44 years immersed in Swedish impairs my facitlity in English, and even my original capability was inclined to “the more words the better”.
    =======
    “Yes we besserwisers are a real pickle aren’t we? We do love our unsolicited verbosity (case in point above – LOL). ”
    =========

    I am often accúsed for the same, but perhaps they tire over time or I have succeeded in tightening up my style or providing more meat for thought—-who knows.
    Besserwisser was my primary goal in life as at a very early age I had to justifiy my presence with something, and it became besserwissery.
    If you are familiar with TA, which spontaneously re-entered my world recently, I was assuming a layer higher than those that I was talking to—-not popular.
    ============
    “OK to answer your questions you are going to have to intrigue me or challenge me more as the crew here is aware of my ADD and I get bored easily (LOL)”
    ===========
    OK, let’s test and see. BTW, I thought that my analysis of your put-down and big dog tactics should have waked more interest. No ad hominems, just pegging your tiresome tactics of dominating the scene.

    I have no DSM description. Probably because I am unique. I was initially classified in school as disruptive, but an exam at 11 years gave no further elucidation. I’ll go into that sometime if you are interested, suffice to say that being ostracised since 3 years of age gives a unique position to view the world and does not invite to social development. AS FOR YOURSELF, Wiki say you belong to the lethargic type, which is also a characteristic of mine. Are you lethargic. It was unclear if that was also a mental lethargy or only physical. ?????
    =============

    “Your “assumptions”. Now I’ll pull a technique which I have given the name of “pulling An ElaineM” as she uses it well and often in debates. What assumptions? Can you exemplify with several.

    As for the game of “remember that TV program, film etc. I cna’t play that one having been here for 44 years and none of us here to my knowdledge can follow a cable channel here, only locally sponsored re-runs of which many find fascinating but not I. Such good ones as Bill Cosby and West Wing caught my fancy.
    =============

    “I’m not really a confrontational type but I do like the intellectual debate at times.”

    I have always been easily affronted and confrontational, chiefly for reasons of fear, better to attack and know where you stand vv “them” than to be attacked from behind, which seemed inevitable.
    Mostly conquered during the last year, but was “willing” to make an exception in your case. ;-)
    ==================

    “No I have never….—…guilty conscious (sic).
    Not correcting your spelling just assuring that I read right. It could in fact stand conscious and make good sense also.
    Reminds me of a story named “Ownz0red”, by Cory Doctorow. Know it? Same type of milieue and reflections. Would love to read your story if published.

    Speaking of mileue: Consider the standard stock shot of a multi-lane full of traffic highway. Most are pretty ordinary stories inside. Of course that is not true, every life is extraordinary. but my point in this case was that some cars, say that white car there, has a driver with an extraordinary history.
    ==================

    EIT?????? HUMINT I know.

    And the coins fell into place in re assumptions and jumping to conclusions. We all jump to conclusions You did assuming I was a meek person who would not react to a put down. Or you are perhaps the effervescent type who is impervious or even unaware to putdowns.

    Not me. I am a meek person who dislikes the limelight but who perversely casts himself head first into it. And am sensitive to the least (imagined?) putdown. There are so many to be seen when you are the least paranoid. And those mentioned were tactics often employed repeatedly by the same persons here. So you get to recognize them even if your meager social contacts have not previously prepared you for them.

    I’ll take your next comment separately

  45. NB, ´RE-EDITED VERSION
    =======================
    =======================

    idealist707
    1, November 5, 2012 at 1:16 pm
    SoTB,

    Nice to chat with you again. Seriously, it was getting a bit routine here, except for the recent appearance of Dr Harris, PhD—I hope you saw his writings.

    I’ll quote and comment. And as usual I’ll be more verbose than you as 44 years immersed in Swedish impairs my facitlity in English, and even my original capability was inclined to “the more words the better”.
    =======
    “Yes we besserwisers are a real pickle aren’t we? We do love our unsolicited verbosity (case in point above – LOL). ”
    =========

    I am often accúsed for the same, but perhaps they tire over time or I have succeeded in tightening up my style or providing more meat for thought—-who knows.
    Besserwisser was my primary goal in life as at a very early age I had to justifiy my presence with something, and it became besserwissery.
    If you are familiar with TA, which spontaneously re-entered my world recently, I was assuming a layer higher than those that I was talking to—-not popular.
    ============
    “OK to answer your questions you are going to have to intrigue me or challenge me more as the crew here is aware of my ADD and I get bored easily (LOL)”
    ===========
    OK, let’s test and see. BTW, I thought that my analysis of your put-down and big dog tactics should have waked more interest. No ad hominems, just pegging your tiresome tactics of dominating the scene.

    I have no DSM description. Probably because I am unique. I was initially classified in school as disruptive, but an exam at 11 years gave no further elucidation. I’ll go into that sometime if you are interested, suffice to say that being ostracised since 3 years of age gives a unique position to view the world and does not invite to social development. AS FOR YOURSELF, Wiki say you belong to the lethargic type, which is also a characteristic of mine. Are you lethargic. It was unclear if that was also a mental lethargy or only physical. ?????
    =============

    “Your “assumptions”. Now I’ll pull a technique which I have given the name of “pulling An ElaineM” as she uses it well and often in debates. What assumptions? Can you exemplify with several.

    As for the game of “remember that TV program, film etc. I cna’t play that one having been here for 44 years and none of us here to my knowdledge can follow a cable channel here, only locally sponsored re-runs of which many find fascinating but not I. Such good ones as Bill Cosby and West Wing caught my fancy.
    =============

    “I’m not really a confrontational type but I do like the intellectual debate at times.”

    I have always been easily affronted and confrontational, chiefly for reasons of fear, better to attack and know where you stand vv “them” than to be attacked from behind, which seemed inevitable.
    Mostly conquered during the last year, but was “willing” to make an exception in your case.
    ==================

    “No I have never….—…guilty conscious (sic).
    Not correcting your spelling just assuring that I read right. It could in fact stand conscious and make good sense also.
    Reminds me of a story named “Ownz0red”, by Cory Doctorow. Know it? Same types of milieue and reflections. Would love to read your story if published.
    ==================

    “If they could bottle this for HUMINT then EIT would not be necessary any more. Right?

    What’s EIT?

    =====================

    And the coins fell into place in re assumptions and jumping to conclusions. We all jump to conclusions You did, assuming I was a meek person who would not react to a put down. Or you are perhaps the effervescent type who is impervious or even unaware to putdowns.

    Not me. I am a meek person who dislikes the limelight but who perversely casts himself head first into it. And am sensitive to the least (imagined?) putdown. There are so many to be seen when you are the least paranoid.

    And those mentioned were tactics often employed repeatedly by the same persons here. So you get to recognize them even if your meager social contacts have not previously prepared you for them.

    ==============

    As for your next comments, my reply disappeared into the maw of the beast. So briefy.

    Gossipy? Great!

    Being reknoww behind the red fuzz curtain? Great.

    Conpiracy theories? Some are well reseached and referenced like Russ Baker’s Bush book. Others are obviosly not, like Christ is coming to reward Mitt.
    Give us yours. I rely on folks like Ellsberg, Baker, Ishmael Jones, Hunter S Thompsons tale of the 1972 election, etc.

    And who are you disappointed in and which Congressman?

  46. Ascension

    @idealist707 – As the NSA Echelon System Tech would say: “Now you have caught my attention.” (LOL)

    1) Dr Harris, PhD back-story… (please elucidate)

    2) Your English is better than mine. Never noticed any Swedish or European indicators…

    3) I am not familiar with TA; is that Transcendental Ascension? (not familiar with that either)

    4) “OK, let’s test and see. BTW, I thought that my analysis of your put-down and big dog tactics should have waked more interest. No ad hominems, just pegging your tiresome tactics of dominating the scene.” –

    (Answer) OK I don’t agree that I was in “put-down” mode as I am trying to control my cyber-angst as it was never a nice feature of my personality. I think you must have assumed that it was directed at you rather than just a somewhat generalized perception of mine of others with only a small component aimed at you (if any). I don’t see myself as a “big dog” and I don’t intend to dominate a discussion forum (but I know I do inadvertently). I think the denizens here allow me to rant as most of them are psychotherapists and other professional healthcare types. My particular problem is that the “physical” peers I have chosen to associate with over the last 40 years have proven to not be a challenging group, and as your own personal problem has shown, tends to be received negatively as they are “low-thinkers” and basically dullards. The Internet has turned into a “therapy” for me allowing myself a venue to share my self-perceived acumen. (And here I go again guys!…) If I had the courage to met Christopher Langan* in Long Island NY I would go to his bar. But I know we would probably not hit it off so well. (*arguably an autodidact smarter than Stephen Hawkin and Marilyn Vos Savant combined? Even if that is possible.)

    5) You have no DSM description as you are NOT mentally ill in my opinion. Your disruptive behavior in school could stem from your environment at home with your care-givers (parents) and siblings (if any). Dysfunctional family life is usually the causality for such negative behavior IMO that is.

    6) Yes physical LETHARGY is present in me at times. But that’s due to a un-diagnosed underlying medical condition I think. I may have inherited it from my parental units (LOL).

    7) “What assumptions? Can you exemplify with several.”

    (Answer) – I already answered that. The fact that you thought I was putting you down. Shows that there is a low-self esteem component to your personality I think. Developing a “thick skin” seems in order but judging from your encounters with bullies in earlier years I’m sure you’re getting more advanced in that area – correct?

    8) HUMINT – Human intelligence gathering methods (spies?); EIT – Extreme Interrogation Techniques (water boarding?)

    9) Never heard of Ownz0red, but I think I would not be interested as I am not into video games and such. I have them but they are just sitting in the den gathering dust.

    10) I tried to start a science fiction novel until someone (at work) started reading over my shoulder. I promptly lost interest and abandoned it. Maybe I’ll start again if the feeling moves me. ADD is a real kick in the arse you know. Can’t focus on anything for long.

    11) “Not correcting your spelling just assuring that I read right. It could in fact stand conscious and make good sense also.” _ I never could spell that word right. I use spell checker a lot… I was referring to people who have done “questionable” things in life and feel bad about it but can’t tell anybody for obvious reasons. So somehow they find me! I listen only out of mild curiosity until I get bored in about 8 seconds (LOL).

    12) “Or you are perhaps the effervescent type who is impervious or even unaware to putdowns.” – No sir I am a Type B personality who has to be a “pretender*” in most walks of life to survive ridicule for being deemed “different”. I am 57 years old and going through a mid-life crisis (surprise surprise). I have several issues mentally that I’m sure some of my friends here already detected. None of which are schizophrenic or otherwise serious. I’m not saying this was your contention. I’m just being needlessly verbose again and volunteering (TMI) too much information. (*that was an excellent American TV show The Pretender (1996–2000) with Michael T. Weiss – you can watch it here http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002HXIF1E/ref=atv_feed_catalog?tag=imdb-amazonvideo-20)

    13) “And those mentioned were tactics often employed repeatedly by the same persons here.” – BTDT I have been initiated too here. I suggest you just take things in stride and roll with the punches. Those are American euphemisms to live by I think.

    14) I too like Daniel Ellsburg but I think he screwed up by using his Xerox machine with his kids to get on THEIR radar. I work for a similar corporation as a independent contractor. That way they don’t have to pay for benefits and such. I don’t wish to get into MY conspiracy theories as I tend to get into TMI and get into trouble with my personal psychopath-esque fellow employees and management. But if you want some “connect the dots” time with me ask away (that applies to others too).

    15) “And who are you disappointed in and which Congressman?” – Vladimir Putin and Larry McDonald (he’s probably still in a Russian prison mental hospital outside Vladivostok – that’s not certain now. He may have died in KAL007 just as the arguably sanitized story goes) TMI I know!!!

  47. SoTB,

    You just won my heart, and that is only the second time here. You also got me booked for at least an hour to comment your comments—–briefly.

    TMI….. story of my life….they did not ask for this….shut up.

    Being different: meet the original martian, was sure of it until a year ago.

    ETC ETC, but let’e take it by the numbers.

    First time I have returned to a thread and seen my “opponents” sig and felt glad in anticipation.
    Says somthing—it will reveal itself with time.

    TBC below.

  48. SoTB,

    Preface. All I write is according to me, my perception, opinion. I am not a source, can sometimes give one, but will not be bothered unless asked.

    1) Dr Harris, PhD. Rarely visiting autistic savant, high testing. Writes in the style difficult to penetrate but on last visit, was writing down so as to convey his own story and help others understand it. He described his journey to becoming a “flat bagged half trans” which was important on that thread.

    I latched onto his other points, asked some questions and got him interested to providing an answer on such matters as his alternative to Descartes dualism, faults are never faults, and the universe vs singularity as the beginning and end.__________________________________

    61 J. Brian Harris, Ph.D., P.E. 1, November 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    I decided to wait and see what got posted for a day or so before starting to write my own reply.

    In addition to being, per my primary care physician’s medical records, “high functioning autistic,” and “hyperverbal” I happen to be a post-op member of the LGBTTTQQ, or, as some of us may prefer, “genderqueer” community.”…………..

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/11/02/transgender-person-alleges-discrimination-after-being-asked-to-leave-womens-locker-room-where-he-exposed-himself-to-young-girls/#comment-442982

    ————
    I think you will find him interesting as you are a high performer too, and his perceptions are understandably not like me and us handicapped “normals”
    But the point is he can lay it all out, organized in the fashion prescribed by academia and PE organizations. The type who “needs” for emotional(?) reasons a four-sided fold-out business card to list all his meritous achievements and associations.
    I worked with a couple in my second career job.
    You maybe meet them daily.

  49. SoTB,

    “2) Your English is better than mine. Never noticed any Swedish or European indicators…”

    Guess my mistakes appear to be ignorance. With reference to American norms, I routinely use the wrong

    prepositions, use faulty adverbial forms and placement, and compulsively injected phrases, which split simple declarative sentences.

    Having been berated here initially many times for my tendency to run off on tangents, inability to construct sentences which they could understand, I have tried to improve. And have had to fight my way back to the joy of writing.

    Lately, as serendipity would have it, I discovered someone similar in Hunter S Thompson in his book covering the 1972 election. He speaks of writing with pleasure one hundred page long tangents, and his use of odd analogies likens my own.

    So much for that little comment. TMI????

  50. “Being different: meet the original martian, was sure of it until a year ago.”

    IMO this also COULD be a reaction to a dysfunctional family life in formative years. This sometimes can be misinterpreted as borderline-schizophrenic especially if there is a component of audible and visual hallucinations present (however ‘duality’ can be confusing for many – hard to differentiate). Somehow people seem to think if visiting aliens are actually real they MUST be intelligent. Therefore some children with low-self-esteem may identify with the Hollywood version of what they think a biological ET would look and act like.

    Beldar is simply having fun with us (duh!) as he/she thinks it is cute to play but no one except you and I responded. I notice he/she has not responded. I wonder why? I sure hope they weren’t a real mental patient boarding a commercial airliner (LOL).

    I saw a BBC sci-fi production of a scenario of UK MoD (Ministry of Defense) people interviewing some captured humanoid aliens only to discover that the aliens were dumb as rocks! (LOL) Then there was Pen & Teller’s Invisible Thread. (1987) You have to watch this at the scene where the US Pentagon asks them to dialog with some captured aliens seeking reasons for not destroying Earth. Equally hilarious. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD2B_5ayeeM Four Parts in all. Worth watching.)

    I personally have trouble in believing in visiting biological ETs and UFOs as I kinda’ have historical data which pretty much identify the real culprits as “humans” with hidden agendas. I also think Jonathan Hughes (above) is correct about a certain meta-physical entity who likes to masquerade as many things he is not (see Apostle Paul’s outing of him at 2 Corinthians 11:14). I mean he spent millenniums “proving” to atheists he doesn’t actually exist (LOL). I hope you see the irony of that last statement.

    BTW – Jonathan please read John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 – “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth or good, but forsook it starting at the Garden of Eden. God is the only Creator (you agree?), and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (Deuteronomy 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chapters 1, 2; Revelation 12:9). You get no argument that he is evil but he wasn’t created that way. He drove himself and some other brother angels toward it sealing their fate with God.

    Atheists… please bear with us religious-esy people. Allow us our arguably ‘accurate knowledge’ rantings you confuse with blind faith or mental illness due to your early negative experiences with Fundamentalists which have arguably poisoned your point-of-view on such things..

  51. SoTB,

    “3) I am not familiar with TA; is that Transcendental Ascension? (not familiar with that either)”

    ————–

    Transactional Analysis Common in the pop psy books of the 80’s. Not sure of any acceptance, etc. Was congenial, non-threatening, but did not understand my placement on the simple hiearchy of Child, Adult, and Parent in rising order.

    It was mainly an explanation of how you communicate from one level, in my case unconciously being a child talking to a parent. Now if the person you are talking to is instead an adult who is responding to you as an adult, then formally that is OK as the lines of communication do NOT cross.
    However, in my recent case of personal re-discovery of TA, when one is in the child state and does not really know what an adult state IS!, then the information intende for an adult will NOT be understood. And the adult will not understand you either, since he will see an adult standing in front of him and be receiving childish information instead.

    Will save crossed transactions for another time.
    The above describes me, that is enough for the moment.

    This realization, together with others, has resulted in other realizations which required correction or acquiring new behaviour or thinking patterns.

    For example, impulse control. Routinely contemplation probable results of impulsive actions. Regarding others as centers of their solar system and not a planets revolving around me. Etc.

    Now if I go further than you find comfortable, then we can stop if you like. Or if interest wanes, etc.

    Having stood under a microscope all of my life, then this is routine for me.

    So will stop here until you give the green light.

    BTW I tried to raise a stink through contacting the largest paper,and the responsible editor, but got only an embarrassed response on the question of Swedish cooperation on Echelon. This was just after the news that Australia had gone in the system.

  52. “In addition to being, per my primary care physician’s medical records, “high functioning autistic,” and “hyperverbal” I happen to be a post-op member of the LGBTTTQQ, or, as some of us may prefer, “genderqueer” community.””

    I truly don’t know what to do with this new information. Any suggestions? Who is the subject of this statement? You? If so please explain what you perceive is the causality for some of it.

    Re: Hunter… you do realize he had a LOT of chemical assistance? Not unlike L. Ron Hubbard. Funny his new religion is so anti-drugs today…

  53. So TA was from Canadian Eric Bernstein (aka Berne)? He was a neo-Freudian therefore I’m surprised he was not marginalized by this fact. I think my friends Otteray Scribe and Mike Spindell are better versed on this than I am.

    Your comment about NSA’s Echelon program may not be global enough in scope. Since the NSA can not do domestic intelligence (unlike the CIA who got special dispensation from LBJ and Reagan). So I guess they did an end-run around the ruling and made deals with foreign nations to look back at USA. No need for a FISA warrant too.

    The one in Australia is a Pine Gap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5mrwS1Nz0).

    Certain CIA officers (Robert David Steele*) feel that Echelon doesn’t work. I mean what terrorist in Pakistan etc. is actually using a Internet connection to do planning? Someone inside thinks they use cell phones too. WTF would they use anything that the Western news media says is being monitored 7*24? \\The raid on Abbotabad Pakistan recently by US Navy Seals PROVES that they were using LOW-TECH. UBL was using 3.5″ diskettes to send text messages via his runners who went to Internet Cafe’s to upload data or just hand it off to a rendezvous. Echelon can not catch that – so who is it really aimed at?

    *Robert David Steele – http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robert+steele&oq=robert+steele

  54. SoTB,
    Being autistic, albeit high functioning, Brian does not have any filters. Not at all unusual with that diagnosis. Most of the regulars here have learned to just roll with his OCD, hypergraphia and flights of ideas. He provides way more information than anyone needs, but that is just Brian.

  55. @Idealist707 – Please don’t be offended if I go MIA from time to time. I tend to flicker in and out as my ADD kicks in and out. If you want to communicate with Malisha (another great mind here) and I when I appear to be MIA please feel free to drop me a line at sonofthunder@hushmail.com I would give you hers but I need her permission first. If you get a free Hushmail account our communications will be totally encrypted inside a Canadian corporate mailserver and no IP addresses are displayed or shared.

    MIA = Missing In Action

  56. @Otteray Scribe – I could just “feel” your presence – Like a disturbance in the force . Just needed to invoke your name huh? (LOL)

    So his name is BRIAN? You knew this how? So he was talking about himself in that “transgender” stuff too? I must admit I found out serendipitously that high functioning autistics can type like crazy and actually have something to say. Case in point: my great-nephew when he was 9 back in the 1980’s has it. I put a TRS-80 tablet-looking device model 100 in his hands and he started typing everyone’s names, ideas, etc. With NO training on how to use it. Now I can’t get away from his Facebook postings (LOL). He is so smart and could be the next world-renown cartographer or ship’s navigator (if it weren’t for his OCD and Autism that is). He is also a avid reader of everything.

    So you and Brian have a history? Maybe I know him but just don’t remember him from other threads. He and I share the TMI gene don’t we?

  57. SoTB,

    Otteray Scribe is always near me. He was one who had the unprofessional behaviour as to diagnose me via what I say here.

    He even declared me the object of an ostracism decision by the “regulars” (hia word). Just ignore him was his words to a new arrival who got irritated when I challenged their competence to speak for the women of Afghanistan. Think what riding in a burka in a Afghan government Jeep for a few years can give one in terms of self-esteem.

    So thought that you should know that OS won’t speak to me any longer. Last time he accused me of lacking social etiquette. Ha. lol.

    By the same token, OS admitted excellence as a pilot and a denizen of a county occupied by so many of his and his wife’s relatives, that by his own declaration, that all bridges and crossings bear either his wife’s or his family names. So we all have our self-images which we defend agáinst all threats. So I kid him about in-breeding which he does not like.

    I have trouble tolerating pretentious people.

    His use of the term hypergraphia with regard to Brian, ie Dr Harris, a man to respect, is typical for Otteray.

    He has used it as a pejorative about me as well.

    Dr Harris is far deeper and wider than most here can ever dream to be. I don’t agree that he has no filters. That is crap. If so, it does not overwhelm his capability to select the useful nor distract from the internal parallel working on several levels in his mind. Those are my amateur judgements.

    You appear, from your comment, too quickly have lost interest in him, and did not roll down to see his musings (can I call them that?) on philosophy, physics, cosmology, infant–child transitions, etc many more than I have ready labels for.

    CONTACT ADDRESS NOTED. YOU CAN FIND ME AT:
    fallingpetals@hushmail.com

    Can I say that Malisha and I are well acquainted.
    She has my full support and admiration here. She has a unique eye for reality, among other good qualities
    I have loudly, as is my custom, promoted her writings in early days, and now she is widely admired here and elsewhere. Deep run still waters, while shallow rapids babble, but rapids are loved by the salmon in Spring.

    CUL…. Radio telegraphy talk for See you later.

    I’ll send the rest of my reply to your comment 1-14 via the hushmail address.

  58. SoTB,

    Re NSA

    Is there not a move now to allow them to view the USA directly. It is said that they have been doing it, albeit was not said that Echelon mirrors was the
    way that they did it. The big facilty ín UTAH is talked of as well. But all this is public info and your channels are special, shall we say.

    UTAH!!! Can that be a first payoff to Romney from HW Bush. LOL. Maybe. Hope it is the last.

    Bush tried many times to advance upwards. He even tried to assassinate Reagan when Bush was Veep in another town, but the Manchurian candidate was a lousy shot and the exploding bullet which lodged in Reagan did not explode.

    Typical CIA blunder. Pick one but don’t give him adequate training and equipment.

    TMI

  59. Godnight all,it is 4 AM here.

    It is election day in one hour and a quart on ET there.
    Sleep well, no Romney nightmares.

    I am not even sure that Romney is as smart as Dubja Bush was. And Cheney’s merits were much heavier than Ryan’s are. Amateur crooks the both of them.

  60. @idealist707 – Re: Otteray Scribe – OK I’m confused now (easy to do [LOL])… so you are quite “normal” and OS was talking about the good Dr. and not you? So you are not a transgender? Are you male or female? I am male. OS has gained my deep respect as he is a very “special” person in his peer group. The in-breeding crack was unfortunate as I think that is a reality in his part of southern USA and considered a pejorative term.

    OS is a professional and is highly qualified in making DSM-style diagnosis as that is his occupation. If he said those things about family names on “bridges” “roads” etc. I would believe him. He hasn’t led me astray yet. I think you may have got under his skin a bit and I swore that hypergraphia comment was aimed at you. So you are NOT Brian?

    Any way give OS a bit more respect even though you feel he doesn’t deserve it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised about a friendly OS versus the converse. There are others here an order of magnitude worse which I’m afraid you haven’t encountered yet. They too are professionals but they can be merciless to people they don’t like. “Here There Be Dragons” (LOL)

    Also OS has experienced a lot of personal tragedy in his life through the loss of several people in his family and friends. So try and consider his feelings when you type things about him. He’s really not a bad guy at all.

    Now what is this about riding in a Afghan jeep in a burka? Explain please. So you are female? How did you get into Taliban-run country without the support of US Forces or some other agency? Confusing me again!
    =========================================
    Re: NSA
    Yeah I think the Bluffdale Data Center is just sort of move you are talking about. Well that’s according to Bill Binney ex-NSA. Read about it:
    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/exclusive_national_security_agency_whistleblower_william
    =========================================
    Re: Bush
    – Yes Romney is related to the Bushes.
    – No Romney will NOT win the Electoral College.
    – Obama may loose the popular vote to tricky Diebold machines in FLA that randomly change Obama votes to Romney (true story as of today). And I’m hearing all kinds of voter fraud stories nationwide. You’d think the CIA was doing it’s Philippine Election tricks all over again. But fortunately Obama is a CIA man per Wayne Madsen (unlike break ’em into pieces JFK).

    – The IDES OF MARCH operation*, as I like to call it, allegedly had more than one shooter. Judy Woodruff of PBS was there and when Hinckley was shooting she saw what she thought was a well dressed USSS team member standing on the balcony above Hinckley aiming his service pistol toward the POTUS limo. Why the limo and not Hinckley below him? It appears that she has gone mute about it now. And the story has since been sanitized.

    *Reagan attempted assassination that would give VPOTUS-43 a 8 year head start on POTUS-41

    – Latest update on a presidential would-be assassin Hinckley? He may be set free from St Elizabeth’s Hospital very soon (talk about family favors!):
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/30/justice/hinckley-hearing/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

  61. SoTB,

    Let’s see if I can set it straight.

    But first let me say that I feel like Brian, ie OS name for Dr Harris as he relates that when he as a young child heard of Christine Jorgenson, then he cried because he knew that he was not alone in the world.

    Now I say like, ie similar, I did not say “same”. And that is because since you came here then I have had it confirmed that there are others (ie you) somewhat similar to me—although much more talented. Brians problem is his and not mine.
    My name is not Brian and I do not have any of his problems that I know of.

    Fortunately, your existence makes me feel both more mellow and less sensitive to cranking (english?) by others. That bodes well for the future for me here.
    I can look at him now almost with warm amusement.
    Poor suckers, I don’t want his problems, just as I don’t want those of a millionaire. I have lost my wife four years ago and am still in sorrow, although it has eased at times.

    Let me set you straight. I am male, have the male equipment that I was born with, and other than a mistaken identity encounter at age 25 (ca) have never associated with trans. Purely hetero. It became a chaste encounter, as I did not contradict her story of being a ballet dancer who got dropped, damaged and operated. But my lust disappeared immediately.

    So my interest, I emphasize for the third time in Brian is not his gender changes, not in the least.

    It was and still is his ideas he drew at the end of his gender rant, and which at my request, that he then further expanded in a later comment. I think, as I said before that you would be interested in them as ideas related to concrete reality and not personal changes, although they do have effect there too in how one views the world on a philosophic level.

    ================

    Re Otteray Scribe.

    I realize that he is a talented man, but like all such men (there are exceptions) they tend to put themselves at the top of the heap, and tolerate impertinence or challenges very poorly.

    I started off as an scared rabbit which attacks even wolves if necessary, and other rabbits too. I mentioned that before. So having done that for a while I had most folks against me, and deservedly so.
    Folks can’t understand how I am or how I can be as I am. And OS just comes with unasked for diagnoses as putmedowns. My list of combatants included regular fights with GeneH, and many others including you name’em: MikeS, TonyC, ARE, Woosty (over eating horse meat), ElaineM, Messpo7272, etc. I have lots of unattractive characteristics due to not developing further than a 3 year old at best.
    I have come to that realization here and have openly thanked folks for saying what they think. That is known.
    Some have on the other hand seen my essential character, behind the childishness, and have learned to aid me and approach me with softness. Not as enablers to stand still, some actually see progress. I do see progress, but it is a daily battle A walk of 40 minutes today included at least 8 challenges to impulse control and outcome prediction so as to decide on reasoned grounds what I SHOULD do.

    I have so to say offered neutral comments to OS, but he ignores them, and that is his privilege. I have no hope of anything until he shows some other signal than silence.
    =================

    No, I am not Brian, If the dig about hyper-bla bla was at me, I could imagine that you are right. But I chose to ignore it this time…..he has used it to abuse me before. And if I am, what the skit. I don’t and can’t force anyone to read what I read.
    Just scroll by it. Simple.

    Just because he is a consult where he MUST diagnose on the basis of evidence not fetched first hand and in confidence, is NO excuse to do so here among peers. If I admire someone, then my expectations rise, they do not diminish. Admirers first, confidence gainers and friends last.

    I believed him when he remarked about his relatives in his home county. He used it as a way of rebutting that I knew anything about the NC appalachian villages.
    And relatively speaking he is right. But my challenge was not on that, but his deriding them for living off of producing crack and alcohol (?). The attitude of disdain angered me. Of course it was a sensitive subject. All us rednecks from Carolina/Tennessee (and I am both by blood) have heard that slur many times. The only real inbred ones that I have ever seen was in the neighborhood of the Moulin Rouge in Paris.

    Yes, he is like you in that he is very talented.
    And as you say, we were apprised by him after prompting from a regular here to tell the story of his loss. That of course flies out of the window when I am kicked on the shins and degraded publicly to a zero. So, his attitude to me will have to change.
    I tried kissing up to him, but got no rise. And I don’t usually ever do that, not for such reasons anyway.

    Maybe there are points that I missed. I DO appreciate your asking and not just listening to their accounts.

    And to all I say, my perceptions of passing the line are not devoped yet. If I piss on your head or anger you by ridicule, nitpicking or whatever, then tell me. I realize that you don’t expect to have to do so for an sdult. but I ain’t there yet. And although I try to do better, my impulse control still slips out of gear. It is embarassing to write this request, but that is how it is. No tears needed or asked for. I have a shrink, just protest and I will listen.
    ============
    I don’t know how much stuff that Hunter used but according to him it was superhuman quantities.
    But although it may have aided his writing/associative capability, I think that he like myself had learned to let his mind run free.
    Let a thousannd marijuana plants bloom!, as Mao did not say.

  62. The burka lady was a newcomer here and sprang to the defense of the Afghan women based on her experience there. She came out strong, and after my challenge she was met by MikeS and others rather restrained as to the merits of her opinions, which she made clear werr facts in her mind.

    I jsut said that as you have told us that you apparently don’t speak Afghani, travel only to meetings of what consequence with officials. then how can you say you know firsthand what you claim you know.

    She tried to reply with info but lost control at my impertinence and went to open attack re she had heard of me, etc etc.

    And then was when OS came with his consoling words to her, don’t pay any attention to him, we regulars have agreed to ignore him. Of course meant for my ears too. Great bullies here. They seldom attack the argument or ideas I advance, but use debate techniques of feints, challengs on their specialty grounds, and alway ignoring the points that I score.

    BTW, OS made an official half-disclaimer on the principled grounds of never doing that.

    He said: “You know that I would never dare to speak in your name.” Whereupon, all unanimously said in response; “Of course you would not” Consensus reached in the name of buddy-hood.

    The lady in the burka who it was addressed to and who could witness to the truth kept her silence.
    But the record in the archives still are hopefully unaltered as I pointed out.

    Old fights make for nssty vendettas and posses too. KKK lives in some minds and in reality.

    =====================================================

    I’ll get back on the Reagan thing, Glad you recognize Bushes attempt gain the Pres chair. He was RNC chairman appointed by Nixon and who Baker believes is the one behind the whole intentionally botched break-in and the manipulation of Nixon by way of his paranoia.

  63. CREW ís claiming a flash on Romney
    ==================================

    http://act.watchdog.net/petitions/1818?n=2800618.SaPj89

    They claim in a newletter that UAW and CREW are preparing a suit (?) on federal ethics law basis that Rpomney concealed between 10 and 110 million in auto

    industry recovery moneys, and hid them in his wife Ann’s account to escape a proper tax on them.

    My obvious question is why come with it now. And how serious, other than a “trust” (no pun intended) question, how important is a violation of a federal ethics law amount to.

    The link is to their petition site. Ca 98,000 registered now. Have your facebook account ready.

    Thunder’s news of Diebold vote switching in Florida is disturbing. TonyC is right, it is premature with vote registering machines.
    Woosty and MikeS will be disturbed. Didn’t the other measures suffice, I ask.

    Who needs a Scct decision when you have fraud to work with.

  64. @idealist707 – Lots of information to digest… I will try and reply but if I missed something I apologize in advance.

    1) You and OS share a common tragedy which should bond yo two rather than separate you. I’ll let you figure out what that is.

    2) Judging from OS’s occupation I think he is “monitoring” or “observing” which is an occupational habit in his line of work. He would not engage you until he was sure of your true mindset and had more data to dialog better. Also the “dragons” you mentioned are his cyber-peers. They are very strong dragons and their peer-pressure is overwhelming at times. I understand that and adjust accordingly. Peers are really important. Some are helpful some are debilitating. Either way it’s a learning experience…

    3) I did not know you have American roots. However, I too am familiar with the European-American (aka White) Appalachian tribalism. You must understand the LONG history with illegal controlled substances these people have had. Back “in the day” they where regulated by what they called “revenuers”. Now their federal enemies are ATF and DEA. OS deals with these people routinely in his occupation as they are “locals” to him I think. I do not think that is North Carolina. I will except further south and west in neighboring states. This illegal activity also impacts Native Americans (and some African-Americans aka Blacks) of the area but that is a bit more politically touchy subject I will not address here.

    4) Marijuana (Cannabis sativa, Cannabis indica, and Cannabis ruderalis) is not the real PROBLEM here in America. It’s the THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol) which is the trouble maker which does NOT enhance anything mentally and according to UK scientists may be a causality for schizophrenia in some people who use MJ. In our ancient history here in USA it was a great commodity for rope making and such. Now it’s a cash crop and being legalized nationwide… the latest Connecticut USA. GW Bush legalized the Federal Govt to cultivate “ditch weed” (marijuana) for bio-diesel conversion for the Federal Motor Pool. The DEA was up in arms over that but was told to STFU and they kinda’ did but post-Obama I do not know where that stands today.

    5) Election – as of today Florida refuses to stop counting! Romney has given his unscripted concession speech and they are still counting. Why can’t Florida do ANYTHING right? I love Florida as it’s a great vacation state. However, I would not want to be a Black man there (if you know what I mean).

    Give OS some more time and stop trying to bait him. He can see right through you and is a waste of your time. If he want’s to engage you he will. But if you keep harping about it he probably will just continue to ignore you. If so I’ll talk to you.

  65. “I’ll get back on the Reagan thing, Glad you recognize Bushes attempt gain the Pres chair. He was RNC chairman appointed by Nixon and who Baker believes is the one behind the whole intentionally botched break-in and the manipulation of Nixon by way of his paranoia.”

    George H.W. Bush’s TRUE past will simply blow you away… There is much to this man most do not know and don’t want to know. If you have ever watched the movie The Good Shepard by Robert DeNiro… notice the man pissing on the mud-wrestling James Jesus Angleton character at the Tomb at Skull & Bombs in New Haven CT. Guess who that was supposed to be? Guess who recently had an USN aircraft carrier named after him, a STILL LIVING President of USA? There’s more such as his undocumented “work” in the 1950’s… but I will save that for a private conversation.

Comments are closed.