Speaking to the graduating class of U.S. Naval Academy, President Barack Obama told the graduates that the best way to protect our nation is to stand up to its principles. I discussed the detainee issue last night on this segment of Countdown.
President Obama stated: “We uphold our fundamental principles and values not just because we choose to, but because we swear to — not because they feel good, but because they help keep us safe, . . . When America strays from our values, it not only undermines the rule of law, it alienates us from our allies, it energizes our adversaries and it endangers our national security and the lives of our troops.”
If only the White House would match its actions to its rhetoric, this country would be able to regain our moral and legal leadership in this troubled world. He needs to guarantee a trial for all detainees and to investigate the U.S. torture program.
For the story, click here.
I don’t see Obama as my ‘friend’ and certainly not because he went to Harvard.
I experience him as the man who has the job of being President, in no small part, because he wants the job – and I think it shows.
George W Bush never really wanted the job and it’s still showing…
I wanted to add one thing to the relationship between trust, branding and Obama. The kind of trust that many supporters put in Obama is actually a trust that belongs to people whom we know. They are people who are our friends, or sometimes a coworker/boss, who have shown us through direct action that they are worthy of that trust. My husband had a platoon leader who tried to get people out of Nam alive. He was worthy of that kind of trust. We all have friends, who when they say something is so, we know it is their best judgement, because we know them personally, that they are honorable, true and kind. This is not something we know about a celebrity or a brand because we do not have personal experience with them. It is something that brands work hard to recreate–the illusion that they are our friends, that we know them, that we are a part of them, that we are in their intimate group. Of course, this doesn’t really make sense when we stop to think about it, but that is what the most sucessful brands do–the create the illusion of closeness which in turn fosters, trust. With the trust established, obediance to buying either the object or what the brand, in this case, the president, is saying is sealed. Add to this that the strongest brands link up to us in a religious manner and you have a truly effective tool for shutting down real thought and opposition.
whooliebacon,
I agree with you that not knowing when, if you will ever receive a trail or be set free is a kind of torture. Currently, many of the detainees have expressed extreme distress to their lawyers about this very situation.
Mike S.,
I’m not the one who has been failing to see the not-so-‘well hidden barbs’ for nearly a full year!!!!!!!!!
I’ve been, somewhat and continually, amazed that you all haven’t – over and over and over again. But then you are male…
Thus my ‘Touchdown’ remark the other day.
I have female ‘relatives’ who smile, wink, flirt and laugh loudly with all the guys. The same ones automatically become ‘victims’ any time they don’t easily get their way like clockwork. I can see it coming from a mile away.
I am FAR from ignorant although I have been called that as well as ‘unprofessional’, by Jill, along with certain other choice characterizations by a few others.
I’m not on call here.
The fact that I am a doctor may arrive with certain expectations, which I cater to, dutifully, while I am working and caring for my patients.
When I am off, I’m less than super-human, just like anybody else.
Jill Comment 1
“This whole speech was written by someone who studied Orwell.”
Jill Comment 2
“I conclude that Obama’s speeches are made to generate headlines and nothing more. Those get published and many people believe that’s the end of the story. I call this propaganda.”
Jill Comment 3
“I gave you the link to Democracy Now, please have the honor and courage to listen to it before you say what I said is untrue. I cannot back down on these facts. It doesn’t matter to me who is doing the action that is wrong.”
Jill’s Phosphorus Link at Guardian
“Afghanistan’s leading human rights organisation is investigating claims that white phosphorus was used during a deadly battle between US forces and the Taliban last week in which scores of civilians may have died.”
Jill’s Comment 4
“One of the things that has concerned me most about Obama is that many of his supporters speak of him in a way I hear religious people describe god. God is said to have a plan.”
Jill,
Your first quote is your opinion of Obama and a rather rough characterization. However, this fits in with your Obama
opinions throughout the campaign. You never did like or trust him. your second comment is further emphasis on your jaundiced view of our President. Your third comment fits your own definition of a personal attack and actually mine too, since it implies that those disagreeing with you are dishonorable and lack courage. That is a personal attack and I never comment about links without reading them
Which brings us to my next point. You refuted Mespo’s alternate interpretation as to the use of white phosphorus, with a Guardian Article which I quote above. Really…This quote comes from “Afghanistan’s leading human rights organisation.” Now there is a source we really should put all our trust in. Mightn’t they have an axe to grind? Is it though, as I suspect, the fact that you find credible those sources that back up your pre-judgments and reject the rest.
Now finally, while we are talking of pre-judgments, your comment 4 says it all. It is interesting that this same comment about Obama supporters ran through his opposition in the campaign, Hillary supporters in general. You in effect are saying that “they drank the Kool-Aid.” By your standards regarding Mespo this is a personal attack.
Since in a previous thread you were angered by and called a “personal attack” my contention that you have never liked the President and continue to dislike him and find evidence of his duplicity. It seems for you Jill, personal attacks are in the eye of the beholder and you are quick to claim foul when someone contests your opinion, but reserve the right to do the same thing when it suits your needs.
When it comes to Patty C. my opinion is that she has by really personally attacking you in a vicious manner, helped to hide your own foibles by garnering sympathy for you. In that way you are allowed to do what you do “sub rosa,” so to speak and people fail to see your well hidden barbs, that are covered by the dubious sources you quote. Neither the NY Review of Books, The Guardian, Jeremy Scahill and Amy Goodman are organizations or people without their own axes to grind and so each of their stories must be parsed to determine fact from opinion. It also offends me that you think that I’m not just as familiar with them as you are. Remember Jill, I am retired and I have a lot of free time to use.
Jill wrote: “Preventative detention is a very scary thing. It is antiConstitutional. It is profoundly unjust. It is unchecked executive power. The fact that this fails to bother people is a sign that something is terribly out of wack.”
********
Isn’t being held for six years as an enemy combatant with no hope tantamount to torture? What the hell are we doing here and why all the talk instead of resolution. In this regard only, what is the difference between Bush and Obama?
This should be vigorously called out and continuously resisted as Jill is doing…and she is to be commended.
“Critical analysis means being critical of your own impressions first and then realizing that you can be manipulated as well as the next guy. It’s facts, facts, facts,…(mespo)
I agree with this statement. Anyone is open to manipulation. I sincerely believe anyone, given the right set of circumstances, is open to membership in a cult. Every single one of us has vunerablites and blind spots. So the question becomes how to avoid being manipulated, or to catch this manipulation early on.
First is the above recognition. I am vunerable to manipulation, others are vunerable. Armed with this knowledge one can seek out contrary analysis from “received wisdom”. To me, as a person on the left, that doesn’t mean listening to the uninformed ravings of Rush, it does mean listening to people who have consistently shown themselves to be thoughtful and of good will. If they have an opinion contrary to received opinion, and/or to mine, I listen to what they say and I take it very seriously.
It’s also important to go to as many sources of primary information as possible. Trying to get less filtered accounts of events is a good antitdote to propaganda. When a primary account differs from what the govt. says, it doesn’t necessarily mean the govt. is incorrect/lying but it certainly is a sign to look very closely at the evidence.
The other day the news was full of “homegrown terrorist arrest” and the NY Times headlining, “1 In 7 Detainees Rejoined Jihad, Pentagon Finds” All this at the same time Obama talks of the need for preventative detention. Now both of these stories have been revised and haven’t turned out to be what the headlines suggested. It was interesting that two such inaccurate stories came out with Obama’s call for preventative detention. They certainly were used to bolster fear.
One of the things that has concerned me most about Obama is that many of his supporters speak of him in a way I hear religious people describe god. God is said to have a plan. We cannot know his plan because we don’t have all the information god does. But we must trust god. We must believe he has our best interests at heart and that he would never do anything to hurt anyone. You can subtitute Obama for god and I’ve heard the same statements made for both of them. Thursday a woman I like very much told me that Obama must know something we don’t about the detainees or he would never want to just keep them in prison. She “had to believe” he knew what was best. She “had to trust” him. So when I hear god-talk applied to our president, I know something is terribly wrong.
All the things Bush did have suddenly become O.K. because a benevolant, trustworthy, wise person named Obama has adopted those same positions. When I see large groups of people suddenly embracing positions they formerly believed to be wrong, I have to think, something is wrong with the whole picture. It just can’t be that so many people changed their minds and moral position without something else going on. To me, that something else involves massive propaganda and manipulation. Brand Obama won the 2008 advertising industry award of the year. Brand Obama knows what it’s doing. You add together a very manipulative campaign, now govt. with the fact that people were very desperate after 8 years of Bush and you get a powerful mix–you get exactly the religious ideology/faith speak one finds surrounding Obama.
Preventative detention is a very scary thing. It is antiConstitutional. It is profoundly unjust. It is unchecked executive power. The fact that this fails to bother people is a sign that something is terribly out of wack.
So yes, I am vunerable to propaganda and so is everyone else. Using this knowledge as a starting point I think it is vital to closely examine everything about our own govt. This govt. wasn’t founded by people who believed in benevolence in governmental leaders and neither should our generation believe in such a thing.
I have no ideal what you are talking about. I thought it was truce by you and an admission that you would leave me alone.
I guess it is incorrect and you will continue being as unreasonable as you have been. Oh me one can only hope.
Patty C. 1, May 24, 2009 at 7:53 pm
I am not staking you. What are you talking about? I will not comment on anyone’s posts again. I am sorry.
—
Nice try, ‘A’…
JT will readily discern I did not post your 7:25pm comment by the IP address, if he so chooses.
What is going on here between Patty C and AY? This must stop. I will inform the Professor on Tuesday. Can you not just look the other way?
I am not staking you. What are you talking about? I will not comment on anyone’s posts again. I am sorry.
Patty C,
Please quit Cyber Stalking me. Please. I have asked you before. DO NOT CYBER STALK ME. it is a FEDERAL CRIME.
I apologize for calling you a BITCH. Just quit stalking my every comment. Please stop!!!!!
There will be others to respond to you. Please Quit Stalking me.
Shoo Fly, I’ll turn the light on and see the cockroaches run.
I can count…
You initially stated that your only son overdosed on Ambien and died 17 months ago, and then two weeks later you stated that it was the 6-month anniversary of his death.
You don’t see the discrepancy between those two representations?
Since you started posting under ‘AY’, you have been stalking my every comment. Since then I’ve had occasion to instruct you and FFLEO, twice, to either ‘grow up or leave me alone’, in response to what can only be perceived as ‘threats’.
Now, I insist that you suspend your escalating insults and increasingly obnoxious responses.
I don’t have time…
lottakatz 1, May 24, 2009 at 6:49 pm
AY, Name calling? You’re out of line there pal; all anybody that doesn’t like a poster need do is scroll past their posts. You’re just piling on. Provocation is not cool.
***************************************************
You are correct. I should not have said that Patty C was a BITCH. That I apologize for. I was deeply offend that I was called a Liar and I should not have stated what I did.
And Sir, you are correct, Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. I too zip through her posts.
You know it would be a good ideal if she did the same with mine as I asked her to do and not respond to what I have had to say.
I am not playing Victim, I am taking responsibility for the name calling.
AY, Name calling? You’re out of line there pal; all anybody that doesn’t like a poster need do is scroll past their posts. You’re just piling on. Provocation is not cool.
Patty C the BITCH is more like it.
It’s not ‘vicious’ to point out such glaring discrepancies and mistruths in statements made. In this case they occurred quickly over a two week period – ie 17 months past and the cause of extended unemployment for a year and a half,
I got depressed myself you stupid imbecile. Read it all you are such a Fool and a Stupid one for that. Are you sure you MD is not in Witchcraft?
***************************************************
or a recent anniversary of just 6 months.
November 9. 20008 to May 9, 2009, You take off your shoe as I don’t think you have both on, and count can ya?
***************************************************
It can’t be both. Sorry.
You are correct you, alls you have to do is months. If you count days it will take much longer and then you have to remember the rhyme about the day da da da . You have you degree in what now? Viciousness or Malicious Doctor.
***************************************************
I am as empathetic as I can be all day long when I feel it is befitting.
I don’t think so, I do not believe you can even spell the word. Now cast spells, a different story.
***************************************************
Fortunately, I also have a bit of a photographic memory, but mostly I don’t enjoy being stalked, harassed, or played by strangers on this site. It’s THE thing that makes it ‘not fun’ for me.
Then Don’t Respond to them and Now I question who the Fool is here. No one is stalking you. Paranoia will destroy ya, ya know? Don’t respond to people ok, then you won’t be harassed. Mike S. will you give her a list of people not to respond to of post that she should not read? Patty C, I did not know who you were on this site for two weeks, must have been my luck. But I did read some of your food stuff and did not respond. I left it alone. Can’t you do the same thing?
**************************************************
BTW, I never got clarification for my ‘vicious’ query, I got ‘yelled’ at, instead, and I still think I was correct.
No one yelled at you like I will, I can assure you. I do not see how Mike S. can say that you have not attacked anyone and then agrees that you have attacked me. But suffice it to say. I think you are ignorant and do not respond to anything you have to say. Thats just me
*****************************************************
Maybe you are available for such nonsense, but I’m not.
Then don’t respond to them, I have yet see you respond to a known troll. You respond to people you fear. So just do not respond in anyway to my posts, Jills or FF LEOs. Is that understood?
****************************************************
Do you feel that golf ball bands snapping, ping, ping careful don’t hold it too close its likely you will hurt your hand, careful now. You are a fool. I tell you, you are a fool.
be gone fly.
It’s not ‘vicious’ to point out such glaring discrepancies and mistruths in statements made. In this case they occurred quickly over a two week period – ie 17 months past and the cause of extended unemployment for a year and a half, or a recent anniversary of just 6 months.
It can’t be both. Sorry.
I am as empathetic as I can be all day long when I feel it is befitting.
Fortunately, I also have a bit of a photographic memory, but mostly I don’t enjoy being stalked, harassed, or played by strangers on this site. It’s THE thing that makes it ‘not fun’ for me.
BTW, I never got clarification for my ‘vicious’ query, I got ‘yelled’ at, instead, and I still think I was correct.
Maybe you are available for such nonsense, but I’m not.
Mike S.
I am good, I like everyone and will read posts. Yours I agree with mostly. It is what I don’t understand that I try and pay the most attention to. Then again, I have to understand that I don’t understand to have a clue. Thats sometimes the hard part.
You know sir, I cannot control Patty Cs’ issues with me. So long as I do not let them upset me and I keep the committe in my mind at bay. LOL
You know, I have a friend that I have talked with and she reads this Blawg and has not posted yet. Why, because of the fear of being ridiculed. Me, on the other hand bring it on. Right now the case is still on the golf ball and the rubber bands are in tact. So when the shell cracks I guess I can get it resurfaced again and again until it cannot be. I take very little personally and do not hold grudges. I do feel most sorry for people that cannot feel the pain of others. That is their loss and maybe they have been through things I have never experienced. But generally when people are in pain they give pain away freely because that is all they know.
I appreciate being censured when I am aghast and pleased when I have said something someone agrees with.
Now I feel like you, Buddha and mespo72cubed. I could have said the above is fewer words. LOL
“Jill refuses to engage with me, because it would require having to admit she doesn’t really ‘know’ what she is talking about, regardless of how many sources she has lined up in the effort to support her predetermined ‘position’.
Of course, this is my long running standard and repeated objection to her endless ‘cut n’ posts’.
It so happens that mespo and Mike S. agree with me.”
Patty C.,
You’re correct I do agree with you about all you have written, except for the implication that Jill is ignorant. I don’t think she is. To me her greatest failure is in the ability to see outside of her own pre-judgments. This, however, could characterize a good many of the human race, including well educated professionals. So to me she is not ignorant.
Now you and I do agree on many things and I love your recipes, but I must say, not for the first time, I think you tend to go way over the top with people who piss you off and
in that process sometimes destroy the possibility of future understanding. I’m not exactly a shrinking violet when it comes to hyperbolic attack, but while I do not suffer fools gladly, I tend to reign in my judgments until I’m quite sure I understand them. I also take no pleasure in denigrating people, nor do I enjoy seeing it done, when clear argument can do the same, without the name calling.
Some of your posts on Jill and others have been painful to read due to the vitriol within them. I understand that you long for a better time, that is now past, but today is the reality. In the past JT wasn’t quite the public figure he is today and this fact has brought in newcomers, myself for one posting, since I was reading and silent 6 months before my first post. I think you do understand that you need to reign yourself in a little and of late I think you have worked to comply with JT’s wishes. In my opinion you need to work at it a little more, but that’s me and your entitled to also cast opprobrium where you will. I would hope you would take this in the spirit I offer it, which is not rebuke, but merely the friendly advice of an old fart.
Mike
“I disagree with this:
“but nobody has yet personally attacked you on this particular thread.”
Patty C 1, May 23, 2009 at 2:53 pm”
AY,
What I was referring in my post was her reference to Mespo and the Patty C. post happened way after I posted. I simply did not see Mespo’s comment as a personal attack and since she has in the past accused me of the same thing I responded. You have also been attacked viciously and unexpectedly by Patty C., particularly regarding your son. I felt she behaved badly in that respect. I’ve said before, in my cliche ridden manner:
I calls em, as I sees em.