Various news sites are reporting that a Christian man, Ishtiaq Masih, was beaten to death in Pakistan’s Punjab province for buying a cup of tea in a Muslim-only tea stall.
The owner is a Mubarak Ali, 42, who put up a sign in Machharkay village saying that non-Muslims had to identify themselves when approaching the stall. When Masih’s cross was noticed around his neck, the owner called on people to attack him. Here is how the International Christian Concern (ICC) described it: “When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served. . . The owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.”
For the full story, click here.
IS,
O.k. so since we can agree that that’s currently a common flaw between (some sects) of Christianity and Islam… why would that lead to all the things you blame on modern Islam, but not in modern Christianity?
Gyges:
What does religion teach? Mainly that this life on earth is temporary and that man has no true will because he is ultimately controlled by God. Furthemore man is of this world and so by extension not good, look at how many in the Muslim world treat sex and women in general (granted other religions arent high on that hit parade either). Man is worthless and low, look at some of the Islamic religious festivals and how they beat themselves bloody (we are only talking Islam currently). With this attitude is it any wonder they do the things they do?
And certainly this line of thought can be used against other religions.
IS,
I love the smell of denial. Send me a postcard from that world you live in where bigotry is excusable if you have a rationale (no matter how poorly researched or reasoned). I’m curious as to the sky color. Other than that, you’re proving to be a game of diminishing returns.
Gyges,
He has no specific fault endemic to Islam to point to, just general complaints that can be made about any religion. You’re going to be waiting a long time.
I googled this story and was only able to find it reported on far right or religious web sites. Seems dodgy to me.
IS,
I’m still waiting for you to say exactly what the flaw is.
BL:
I love the smell of bs in the morning, coming off the fields. Fertilizing the hay.
I agree there are Christians that would kill a Jew or a Muslim. I still dont see your point, why does one counteract the other? We were talking about some of the flaws with Islam. I will be happy to discuss the flaws of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism if you wish. There are certainly many.
I have a friend who was brutalized by her father, a Pentacostal Preacher, she is an atheist and hates religion. She especially despises Christianity.
IS,
I don’t care if you get pissed off, bigot. You come in here with a clear anti-Islamic agenda, so you get what’s coming to you. Every criticism you raise can be equally raised against Christianity. Your “argument” is crap. You do nothing but dig yourself in deeper as far as illustrating your bigotry. You are doing exactly what most bigots do when confronted – attempting to rationalize yourself into being the good guy. I’d say good luck with that but succeeding in deluding yourself on that front seems to be thoroughly accomplished.
IS,
What I’m saying is that historically (And arguably currently), tyrannical forms of government are the rule rather than the exception.
IS,
Probably for the same (General) reasons that Latin America, Africa, and parts of Asia are.
Gyges/BIL:
“Secondly, I’d ask you to consider the possibility that the type of government of a people has WAY more to do with their scientific achievements then their religion. I can expound on this later if you want.”
Yes that is so, but why are Muslim countries mostly ruled by despots?
BIL:
In my opinion one of the fundamental flaws is allowing priests/Imams the ability to interpret the Quran. Isnt it about time for a Muslim Martin Luther?
the other is the same as most religions-putting life on earth as a practice session for eternity and that we must subrogate self in the service of others.
I actually dont care if you call me a bigot or not, I imagine you win a lot of arguments that way. Most people will fold or piss themselves trying to apologize. It is very effective strategy. Change the terrain and attack.
IS,
I’ll quit accusing you of an anti-Islam bias when you quit showing it. You can’t’ worm your way out it. Bigots and unfounded bias get called out around here. You don’t like the label? You put it on yourself by your actions. You had many ways to attack the wrongness of this man’s killing and you chose to attack the Islam of the attacker instead. You don’t like being called a bigot? Then don’t act like one. That simple enough for you?
IS,
Well, there are several points I’m going to make, and I just wanted to know your familiarity with science as a process of creating and then spreading knowledge. Just so you know, I’m no expert, just an interested observer (my wife’s a molecular biologist, and I’m just amateur science geeky in general).
I think your proof for showing that “Muslims Don’t Produce world class science,” is extremely bad (setting aside the fact that, no world class Scotsman eats cream with his oats). Although at least you offered proof. There are three categories of “Science” Nobel Prizes given out any year, for a little over 100 years. Most years two awards are given out in one of those three for closely parallel work, so it’s about 428 total. Pub Med has over 18 MILLION citations, dating back to 1948, so there’s a 61 year overlap. Those would mostly fall under the Physiology or Medicine category for the award. Now all of those articles aren’t great science (although to be published in a peer reviewed journal you usually have to be at least good science), but to say that only 70 some odd (estimating 7 years were the two awards happen to be in that catagory) out of 18 million (which is low, PUB med isn’t by any means all encompassing) are World Class science is ridiculous.
Secondly, I’d ask you to consider the possibility that the type of government of a people has WAY more to do with their scientific achievements then their religion. I can expound on this later if you want.
Third, from personal experience: very few scientists hold the dogmatic views of any religion. Most that I’ve met and talked to about the subject are best described as either deists, or naturalistic pantheists, and then there’s a large percentage of atheists in the mix.
And finally, what do you suppose the “fundamental” flaw is?
BIL:
There are many flawed Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus. Christianity does not have the market in peace and love. And I deplore churchs like Rick Warrens, carnival Christians is what they are.
I am not a Chrisitan chauvinist no matter how many times you may accuse me of it.
As for biased and bigoted, it would make things simple for you and it would all fall into a nice neatly tied package which wouldnt take much to unwrap.
Believing there is a flaw is one thing, demonizing the entire Muslim world for the flaw of one man is another. Christianity is deeply flawed as well and has often been used to justify violence, but I don’t see you up in arms about that. One does not have to be “pro” something to be “anti” something. All one has to do to be a bigot is to be wrongly “anti”. In this case, you seemingly cannot escape your anti-Islam bias. Your belief in Christianity to end that is irrelevant. Biased and bigoted is biased and bigoted no matter the source.
BIL:
here again you assume too much, I am not particularly religious, live and let live is my motto.
Again you change the subject, I have not denied that there are good people whose religion is Islam.
How many times does one have to say that philosophically there appears to be something wrong with Islam because of the physical manifestations of this religion on earth. Now I will concede that it could be that Saudi Wahhabism has a strangle hold on interpretation.
The end result of a religion or a philosophy of life is to teach people to live in harmony with one another. To the extent that a religion or philosophy accomplishes that it is a success. I see turmoil in Islamic countries, until such time as Muslims disavow what is going on in the name of Islam I will continue to believe there is a fundamental flaw.
“My wife says that the ones with the bad mental health tend to rule relationships.”
IS,
What I know about human psychology tends to agree with her.
Just as with addiction, the people with bad mental health and/or addicts tend to dominate the relationships they have.
Gyges,
I wouldn’t try to disabuse you of your thought, there certainly is evidence. However, from my perspective any belief or philosophy, whether religious or secular can be hijacked in the service of fanaticism. I for instance trained/became a Gestalt Psychotherapist and I try to live my life in a Gestalt manner philosophically/emotionally and interactively. As you see though in the Gestalt Prayer below, one could use that formulation in the service of both libertarianism, conservatism or many other ism’s that don’t coincide with my own humanism.
The Gestalt Prayer
Fritz Perls
I do my thing
and you do your thing.
I am not in this world
to live up to your expectations
And you are not in this world
to live up to mine.
You are you and I am I.
And if by chance
we find each other,it’s beautiful,
If not, it can’t be helped.
BIL and Gyges:
I am wrong there are 6 Muslim Noble Prize winners according to this article.
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/muslim-nobel-prize-winners/
IS,
I just said that Nobel Prizes are THE WRONG WAY TO JUDGE A COMMUNITIES CONTRIBUTION TO SCIENCE. It shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature and history of science. “Nobel” is not some magic wand. It’s a prize created to encourage science, arts and peace by a man with a guilty conscience for making tools used to kill people. Lots of valuable science happens every day that don’t get the Prize. Much of it just as valuable as the winner’s contributions.
Learn to read AND UNDERSTAND before you comment.
And I won’t call you a racist or a bigot if you don’t act like one. Have any opinion you like. Even wrong ones. But don’t expect civility when those are your choices. You’re blinded to your bias or you encourage it. Either way, not an attractive feature. In your own way, you are as much a zealot as the radical Muslims. You don’t have to be silent. We still have Freedom of Speech. Just expect ridicule when you speak from ignorance and spew pro-Christian/anti-Muslim garbage. In the country envisioned by our Founding Fathers, all Gods – even yours – have no proper place in the governance of men except as a compass for conscience in those incapable of ethical analysis. Killing someone for ordering tea because he believes different than the vendor is ethically wrong; no religious language required to analyze that although you seem to insist upon it by perpetually trying to demonize Islam. I guarantee you there are moderate Muslims just as appalled by that as you, some even more so for they feel shame for the disgrace this murderer brought to Islam. That gentleman last week who made national headlines for giving a robber he got the drop on $40 and a loaf of bread because the erstwhile thief begged, saying he was robbing to feed his family. The clerk showed great compassion. He gave the man money and food and extracted a promise not to rob again. The clerk said his act of incredible generosity and compassion was “what any good Muslim would do.” Do you think this man approves of killing a Christian over tea? Just like there are blogs recently propagated in which moderate Christians have shown their displeasure, embarrassment and disdain for the murder of Dr. Tiller as an unchristian act; a murder. They to wonder, “What part of ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘God is Love’ don’t you people understand?” Islam is no better nor any worse than any other religion. We are supposed to be a country of laws, not men, and most certainly not gods. No matter what your wishful thinking might be.
Gyges:
No but look at the authors, many Indians and Chinese and Europeans and Muslims.
So what is your point?